BibleThinker with Mike Winger

Episode: What is Jesus teaching us about Hades (not Hell)? 10 Qs with Mike Winger (Ep 40)
Date: January 3, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Winger answers ten listener questions, with a deep focus on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus from Luke 16. He explores what Jesus teaches about Hades (the intermediate state between death and final judgment), how literally the parable should be taken, and how it informs our understanding of the afterlife. Mike also tackles topics such as indecisiveness versus acting in faith, the "wealth transfer" teaching in prosperity gospel circles, reconciling hard passages in the Old Testament, praying for miraculous healing, and Christian engagement in politics. The tone is thoughtful and pastoral, aiming for biblical clarity on complex and sometimes controversial issues.

Main Discussion: Rich Man & Lazarus, Hades vs. Hell ([00:02]–[~30:00])

Parable Reading and Initial Observations

• Mike reads Luke 16:19-31, the story of the rich man and Lazarus.
• Summarizes: There are two locations after death—a place of torment (Hades) and a place of comfort (Abraham’s side).
• Notes this is prior to the final judgment; the conversation occurs while the rich man’s brothers are still alive, situating the story before “eternity stuff.”

Key Insights and Discussion Points

1. Hades, Abraham’s Bosom, and the Afterlife

• Hades is depicted as an intermediate state, not the final "hell" (lake of fire).
• Two "compartments": one of comfort (Abraham’s side) for the faithful; one of torment for the unfaithful.
• The story illustrates conscious experience after death (“they’re both consciously experiencing it in this story” [~00:10]).

2. Parable or Historical Account?

• Mike leans toward viewing the passage as a parable, not a literal historical account.
• “When I say that there's a parable about a landowner or a parable about a woman who lost a coin … that doesn't mean that like farms and seeds don't exist … all of the many parables of Jesus have a realistic background” ([~00:25]).
• The background setting (Hades, comfort, torment) reflects reality, though story details may use simplified or symbolic elements.

3. Lazarus in Luke vs. John

• Mike argues the Lazarus in Luke’s parable and the Lazarus of John’s gospel are different people, despite interesting parallels.
  • “John’s Lazarus is part of a family of means … in the parable, he hasn’t even buried it, or so it seems … These two Lazarus guys are different, that’s my point here.” ([~00:32–00:35])
• Shares excitement about biblical details supporting careful reading and contextual distinctions.

4. Literal vs. Symbolic Elements in the Parable

• Finger, tongue, flame—are these literal or metaphorical?
  • These may be “physical ways of describing soulish realities, the soulish realities are real, but … the real comfort that there is versus the real torment” ([~00:42]).
• Difficulties in describing disembodied existence may require symbolic language (e.g., fire for torment, water for relief).

5. Hades vs. Hell ("Lake of Fire")

• Hades = Intermediate holding place; Hell = Final judgment.
  • “Jail and prison” analogy: jail as temporary, unpleasant, but not the final sentence; prison (hell) is final and worse ([~01:08]).
• After Christ’s resurrection, Hades’ comfort side (“Abraham’s bosom”) is emptied—saints now go to be with Christ (“after Christ, half of this gets emptied out … now when people die, they don’t go to that temporary holding place, they go to the very presence of God, they go to heaven” [~00:53]).

6. Historical and Theological Background

• The Jewish historian Josephus documents a common Pharisaical belief in an intermediate state with two parts (comfort & torment); this matches Jesus’ hearers’ assumptions ([~01:10]).

7. Summary: Why This Matters

• Main message of the parable: our eternal destinies are determined by our relationship with God, not worldly status or works.
  • “You and me, when we die, we will go to one of two places. It’s not multiple choice options… you will be there only if you know Christ” ([~00:39]).
• Even as a parable, it teaches real truths: reality of comfort or torment after death, necessity of the gospel.

Memorable Quote

“I think it’s true that there’s elements of this parable that may not be perfect correspondence in descriptions of physicalities, but rather physical ways of describing soulish realities … The soulless realities are real, but the real comfort that there is versus the real torment that there is.” —Mike Winger ([~00:42])

Timestamps & Additional Questions

[~01:11]

Q2: Indecisiveness vs. Acting in Faith

• Listener struggles with guilt over decisions not made with 100% confidence it’s God’s will (Romans 14:23).
• Mike clarifies: Context is about personal convictions (food, drink, etc.)—not about life decisions (“This isn’t about you making decisions about where to move, about what job to take, about who to marry …” [~01:18]).
• Wisdom and prayerful prudence are scriptural, not constant supernatural guidance.
• Paralysis isn’t safety—waiting forever is also a choice.

[~01:30]

Q3: “Great Wealth Transfer” & Prosperity Preachers

• Mike critiques the “wealth transfer” teaching: “The only people that have gotten rich are Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland and now Brandon Biggs … The wealth transfer thing is a transfer of your wealth to false teachers. That’s what I think happens on a regular basis. It’s not real. I don’t think there’s any biblical case for it.” ([~01:34])
• Cites Old Testament context is misapplied, grift warnings.

[~01:38]

Q4: Reconciling God’s Judgment in Nahum 3:5–6

• Addresses God’s shaming and judgment imagery.
• “It’s not hard to reconcile it with a holy and loving God. … The fact that God is holy… is much more piercing than that.”
• Uses the “white glove” analogy to illustrate the absolute purity of God.

“When God’s judgment shocks my heart, it’s because my heart is numb to the depravity of sin. And my heart doesn’t understand God’s holiness.” –Mike Winger ([~01:45])

[~01:54]

Q5: Praying for Healing and Faith in Hard Times

• To a mother with a baby diagnosed with a fatal condition: Is it wrong to just pray for strength and peace, not healing?
• Mike: “I don’t think you should burden yourself with this concern … pray as you feel prompted and led ...”
• Both miraculous healing and enduring in suffering are biblical; no guilt should be assigned for how one feels led to pray.

[~02:01]

Q6: Did Jesus “Lose” Divine Knowledge On Earth and Resume It in Heaven?

• “Does Jesus now know things he said only the Father knew (e.g., day/hour of his return)?”
• Cites Philippians 2 and 1 John 3; leans toward Jesus in glory having resumed full divine attributes, though with nuance.

[~02:08]

Q7: Should Christians Support Government Legislation on Moral Issues?

• Responds to why some Christians oppose legislating against abortion or transgenderism.
• Clearly distinguishes murder/abortion as requiring governmental prohibition—government’s biblical duty.
• For transgenderism, the issue is government forcing affirmation of error, not just allowing freedom.

[~02:19]

Q8: Is Wanting Wealth and Security Unbiblical (Luke 12 Barn Builder)?

• “The problem isn’t being rich. The problem is laying up treasure for yourself and not being rich toward God.” ([~02:24])
• Encourages generosity, warns against selfish hoarding; read Luke slowly for wisdom on wealth.

[~02:30]

Q9: Attributing Biblical Figures to President Trump’s Election

• Is it fair to reference David, Cyrus, or Jehu when discussing Trump’s spiritual significance?
• Mike: It's not inherently wrong, but “the danger comes when you do it dogmatically and divisively.”
• Every leader is under God’s sovereignty; caution urged in making prophecies or parallels.

[~02:36]

Q10: Who Is the “Us” in “Let Us Make Man in Our Image” (Genesis 1:26)?

• Discusses options: royal we, divine council, angels, or the Trinity.
• Leans toward “Trinity groundwork”—not explicit, but the plural is consistent with later Trinitarian theology.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “You are not your body. Your body’s important, your body’s valuable … but your soul, so to speak, goes to this other location, at least in this story.” ([~00:08])
• “Paralysis is a decision too. Not doing anything is a choice, and waiting and waiting and waiting sometimes has consequences as well.” ([~01:21])
• “The only people that have gotten rich are Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland … the wealth transfer thing is a transfer of your wealth to false teachers.” ([~01:34])
• “When God’s judgment shocks my heart, it’s because my heart is numb to the depravity of sin. And my heart doesn’t understand God’s holiness.” ([~01:45])
• “Pray as you feel prompted and led. Don’t listen to someone who … causes harm. Have grace for them. But you can pray as you feel is appropriate.” ([~01:56])
• “The problem isn’t being rich. The problem is laying up treasure for yourself and not being rich toward God.” ([~02:24])

Episode Structure & Flow

• Deep, careful scripture-based analysis.
• Honest wrestling with difficult theological questions.
• Emphasis on humility, generosity, context, and reliance on Christ.
• Tone is kindly, pastoral, and patient, with a desire for biblical faithfulness.

Quick Reference of Questions & Key Timestamps

| Question Topic | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------|-----------------| | Hades, Heaven, Hell in Parable | 00:02–00:53 | | Parable, Symbolic vs. Literal | 00:28–00:53 | | Indecisiveness vs. Acting in Faith | ~01:11 | | Prosperity "Wealth Transfer" Teaching | ~01:30 | | God’s Judgment in Nahum 3 | ~01:38 | | Praying for Healing: Faith & Peace | ~01:54 | | Jesus’ Knowledge: Earth vs. Heaven | ~02:01 | | Christians, Politics & Legislation | ~02:08 | | Love of Money; Riches in Luke 12 | ~02:19 | | Trump and Biblical Parallels | ~02:30 | | Genesis 1:26—Who is "Us"? | ~02:36 |

Closing Prayer ([~02:40])

Mike closes with a prayer that listeners would grow in their appreciation of scripture, have hearts open to true spiritual change, and enter the new year with godly hope and resolve.

This recap provides the core teaching, biblical reasoning, and pastoral encouragement of the episode, structuring Mike Winger’s thoughtful engagement for those who may not have listened.