Advanced Lasers

Summary

Big Ideas Lab – "Advanced Lasers" (Sep 23, 2025)

Host: Mission.org
Guests: Jackson Williams, Tom Spinka (Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Physicists)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Big Ideas Lab dives deep into the world of advanced laser technology—especially as pioneered at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL). The conversation explores how LLNL's breakthroughs are revolutionizing key areas such as computer chip manufacturing, cancer treatment, advanced manufacturing, and the potential realization of fusion energy. Listeners get a rare insider look at the science and people driving the next generation of laser innovation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Extreme Ultraviolet Lithography (EUVL) and Chip Manufacturing

• Extreme ultraviolet light: Used to etch minuscule features on modern microchips, enabling today's powerful electronics ([00:03]).
• How it works: Starts with plasma heated by lasers to produce this hard-to-reach radiation ([00:42], Jackson Williams).
• Impact: Underpins the ongoing extension of Moore’s Law, powering everything from electric vehicles to smartphones ([00:54], [01:40]).

"The lasers that we're producing now are useful in scaling to the next generation of computer chips that will extend Moore's Law for another 30, 40, 50 years."
— Jackson Williams [01:40]

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2. Medical Breakthroughs—Laser-Powered Cancer Therapies

• Current standard: X-ray therapies, effective but imprecise ([05:33]).
• Laser advances: Enable production of highly targeted beams (e.g., protons, carbon ions)—“scalpels” instead of “sledgehammers” for tumor destruction ([06:05], Jackson Williams).
• Potential: Transition from rare, expensive treatments to broader clinical access through high-repetition-rate laser-driven ion beams.

"People have been doing this, actually for the better part of 20, 30 years."
— Jackson Williams [06:05]

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3. Revolutionizing Advanced Manufacturing

• Challenges: Detecting hidden flaws in complex, 3D-printed parts is critical for safety (bridges, planes, etc.) ([07:04], Tom Spinka).
• Solution: Precise x-ray imaging produced with advanced lasers, allowing for non-destructive, thorough inspection ([07:22]).

"If you're making a beam for a bridge, how do you know that there's not a critical defect in that part that might cause it to fail?"
— Tom Spinka [07:04]

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4. Engineering Challenges: Heat Management in High-Repetition Lasers

• Problem: Firing thousands of times per second generates enormous heat, risking damage and performance loss ([08:56], Tom Spinka; [09:45], Jackson Williams).
• LLNL Innovation: “Gas cooling” system rapidly blows air through segmented laser slabs, efficiently extracting heat ([10:27], Tom Spinka).

"One of Livermore's innovations was being able to adapt that same concept [blowing air to cool food] to solid laser materials."
— Tom Spinka [10:27]

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5. Materials: The BAT Laser and Thulium-Doped YLF

• The BAT laser (Big Aperture Thulium): A new gain medium allows unprecedented efficiency and repetition rates—“10,000 times per second” vs. “one every four hours” of older systems ([11:36], Jackson Williams; [11:59]).
• Thulium-doped YLF: Offers a rare “goldilocks” set of properties (strength, conductivity, long energy storage) and no major trade-offs ([12:06]).
• Aesthetic: These high-tech laser crystals are also visually stunning—quartz-like or even jewelry-worthy ([12:53], Tom Spinka).

"A lot of laser crystals are really beautiful physically... actually kind of like people use in jewelry."
— Tom Spinka [12:53]

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6. Moving Lasers from Lab to Real-World Application

• Current state: High-end lasers operate only in expert hands and controlled environments ([13:32], Jackson Williams).
• LLNL’s role: Engineering robust, industry-ready solutions and facilitating technology transfer so companies can commercialize new systems ([13:32], [13:51]).

"One of the places that Lawrence Livermore really shines is being able to take an idea on paper... and we are the partners to industry."
— Jackson Williams [13:32]

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7. The Fusion Power Connection

• Big vision: The same laser advances could power future fusion energy plants—mirroring the sun’s process here on Earth ([14:16], Tom Spinka).
• NIF (National Ignition Facility): Already demonstrates lasers recreating stellar heat and pressure; next steps hinge on reliable, repeatable, high-power lasers ([14:31]).

"Laser technology development is absolutely... applicable to inertial fusion energy."
— Tom Spinka [14:16]

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8. The Culture and Future of Laser Innovation at LLNL

• Collaborative, risk-taking environment: Scientists are encouraged to push boundaries, test “wild ideas” with real-world impact ([15:12], Jackson Williams).

"The best part about working at the lab is being able to test wild ideas... Whether it works or it doesn't, at least you know there's an answer."
— Jackson Williams [15:12]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On scaling Moore’s Law:
  "The lasers that we're producing now are useful in scaling to the next generation of computer chips that will extend Moore's Law for another 30, 40, 50 years."
  — Jackson Williams [01:40]

• On cancer treatments becoming more precise:
  "You can use things like protons or other heavier element ions... Those are the ability to deposit that energy in a very small space."
  — Jackson Williams [06:05]

• On the beauty of laser materials:
  "A lot of laser crystals are really beautiful physically... actually kind of like people use in jewelry."
  — Tom Spinka [12:53]

• On transforming wild ideas into real technology:
  "The best part about working at the lab is being able to test wild ideas and... develop that into a place where it's a hypothesis... and have a finding."
  — Jackson Williams [15:12]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:03 – Extreme ultraviolet lithography origins and impact
• 01:22 – Medical applications: lasers in cancer therapy
• 03:32 – NIF: The world's most powerful laser and its cousin technologies
• 05:17 – What makes a cutting-edge, high-repetition-rate laser
• 06:05 – Ion beam therapy explained
• 07:04 – Advanced manufacturing and quality control via laser x-rays
• 08:56 – The heat management engineering challenge
• 10:27 – Gas cooling innovation at LLNL
• 11:36 – BAT laser and breakthrough materials
• 12:53 – The beauty of laser crystals
• 13:32 – Transitioning from laboratory tools to real-world impact
• 14:16 – Lasers as keys to fusion energy
• 15:12 – Culture of creativity and experimentation at LLNL

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Summary Tone

The episode balances wonder and technical detail, blending the voices of passionate scientists with a sense of awe at laser technology’s power and elegance. The tone is enthusiastic, aiming to inspire both scientific curiosity and appreciation for the persistent innovation at LLNL.

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For anyone fascinated by science and technology, this episode illuminates how fundamental advances in lasers—pushed forward at Lawrence Livermore—are shaping the future of electronics, medicine, energy, and far beyond.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Extreme ultraviolet light, a ghostly shimmer just beyond human sight. Wavelengths so short they can sculpt matter at the scale of atoms. Not long ago, it lived only in theory. Now you see the results of it every day. The efficiency of electric cars gliding quietly down the road. The speed of high end laptops clicking away in coffee shops. The power of the latest smartphones that can still slip into our pockets. Each one advanced by the chips inside. Chips imaged with extreme ultraviolet light.

[Jackson Williams]

All of those systems start with a plasma. You get the plasma very hot and it starts to emit a radiation band that is further beyond the visible light and into the extreme ultraviolet.

[Narrator]

This process, called extreme ultraviolet lithography or euvl, is made possible by a laser. Laser created plasma heated to 100,000 degrees. It revolutionized chip making and is just one of many advanced laser techniques Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory helped develop that not only enhance everyday life, but are also reshaping health, energy and national defense.

[Jackson Williams]

Medical applications. Radiotherapies, X rays, protons or ions that are used to treat cancer. Lasers have a potential of being the best version of those devices in the world.

[Narrator]

And scientists at Lawrence Livermore are pushing that technology even further.

[Jackson Williams]

The lasers that we're producing now are useful in scaling to the next generation of computer chips that will extend Moore's Law for another 30, 40, 50 years.

[Tom Spinka]

What we are developing in our group is new laser technologies that actually will really impact people's everyday lives.

[Narrator]

Welcome to the frontier of light. Welcome to the Big Ideas lab. Your exploration inside Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. Hear untold stories, meet boundary pushing pioneers and get unparalleled access inside the gates. From national security challenges to computing revolutions. Discover the innovations that are shaping tomorrow. Today. Join a team where expertise makes a difference. Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory is hiring for a safety basis analyst, a full stack developer and a target diagnostics engineer. And the list of open positions doesn't end there. There are more than 100 job openings across science, engineering, engineering, IT, HR and the skilled trades. This is more than a job. It's an opportunity to help shape the future. Explore all open positions and start your next career adventure [e-mail] careers that's llnl.gov careers the National Ignition facility at Lawrence Livermore National Labs has made headlines as the largest and most energetic laser in the world.

[Tom Spinka]

California scientists made a major breakthrough. History making projects is underway right now.

[Narrator]

Massive laser able to recreate the temperatures and pressures close to what exists in the core of stars. But close by is a quieter revolution. Engineers and physicists at Lawrence Livermore have been working on something very different. Lasers that fire thousands of times per second to create systems that are faster, cleaner, and more efficient than ever.

[Tom Spinka]

Lawrence Livermore national laboratory is world renowned as one of the places to be, if not the place to be, for big lasers.

[Narrator]

Tom Spinka is a laser physicist at the lab.

[Tom Spinka]

My group is called advanced photon technologies, and we develop laser sources and applications of those lasers. For me, it's being on the cutting edge, being able to demonstrate in the laboratory, develop new materials, new concepts for how lasers work.

[Narrator]

The advanced photon technologies program, or apt, designs high repetition rate laser systems that deliver short, powerful pulses of light repeatedly and with incredible precision. These lasers are engineered to run fast, stay cool, and perform reliably, both in experiments and real world environments. Apt's lasers are advancing the state of the art for high repetition rate lasers that could be used for applications like advancing cancer treatment, supporting cutting edge materials and aerospace research, and powering semiconductor manufacturing, such as the extreme ultraviolet lithography process. And they are opening up new application spaces. Their impact reaches far beyond the lab.

[Tom Spinka]

One of the distinguishing characteristics that makes an advanced laser, or something on the cutting edge is being able to produce those laser pulses multiple times per second, as opposed to one shot every couple of hours.

[Narrator]

But what could these advanced lasers actually do?

[Jackson Williams]

Cancer is treated generally with x rays.

[Narrator]

That's Jackson Williams, a physicist in the advanced photon technologies group at Lawrence Livermore.

[Jackson Williams]

You shoot an x ray beam into the cancer, and you try to kill as much of that tissue as possible. That's a bit of a sledgehammer when it comes to medical therapies.

[Narrator]

X rays, while effective, tend to hit everything in their path. Healthy tissue, organs, bone. But new technologies aim to change that by swapping force for surgical precision.

[Jackson Williams]

You can use things like protons or other heavier element ions, things like carbon atoms, and those are like scalpels. Those are the ability to deposit that energy in a very small space. And so you try to only kill the tumor and nothing of the healthy cells around it. People have been doing this, actually for the better part of 20, 30 years.

[Narrator]

This kind of therapy, known as ion beam therapy, has been used clinically for decades in some parts of the world. But the potential to generate and control these beams using high repetition rate lasers could dramatically expand access, helping bring cutting edge treatments to more hospitals and more patients.

[Jackson Williams]

We build lasers in a way that we are trying to solve the technical paths.

[Narrator]

Another promising area is in advanced manufacturing. High repetition lasers are transforming how we inspect parts made through additive manufacturing. The intricate layered components used in Aerospace, automotive and energy industries.

[Tom Spinka]

It's also important to be able to see inside of those parts. Where are the defects? How might you need to post process that part and how can you qualify that part? If you're making a beam for a bridge, how do you know that there's not a critical defect in that part that might cause it to fail?

[Narrator]

By generating ultra precise high energy x rays, advanced lasers can image dense materials from the inside out without damaging or altering them. This lets engineers catch hidden flaws early to make sure every part is solid. There is no shortage of ways that advanced lasers could transform many fields beyond medicine and advanced manufacturing. The challenge is in building lasers that are precise and powerful at a reasonable cost. Looking for a career that challenges and inspires, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory is hiring for a safety basis, analyst, research scientist, cell biology, and an electrical designer, along with many other roles in science, technology, engineering and beyond. At the lab, every role contributes to groundbreaking projects in national security, advanced computing, scientific research, all within a collaborative, mission driven environment. Discover Open [e-mail] careers where big ideas come to life. One of the key engineering challenges particular to high repetition rate lasers is managing heat. With the laser firing so quickly, there is no chance for the system to cool down.

[Tom Spinka]

The most important aspect that needs to be thought about and engineered and taken great care for is heat. So every time that you store a little bit of energy in a laser gain material and then extract that energy, it leaves behind a little bit of energy in the laser gain material and that little bit of energy turns into heat. And when materials change temperature, some of their material properties also change. Some of those things impact the laser performance.

[Narrator]

Whenever a laser fires, not all the energy makes it out the front door. Some of it lingers as heat inside the system itself. And even tiny shifts in temperature can subtly warp the very material the laser relies on, changing how it behaves with each pulse.

[Jackson Williams]

The types of lasers that we plan to build have power outputs that are equivalent to a race car engine. And the cooling is about the same. So you need to be able to extract all of that heat that's being made in the engine or the laser in this case, and being able to send power to the wheels or being able to deliver the laser pulse to.

[Narrator]

Its target, too much heat can blur the beam or break the system entirely.

[Tom Spinka]

How do you extract all that heat? And one of the major contributions that Livermore has had to this field is the development of a technology called gas cooling.

[Narrator]

The principle behind gas cooling is something we all use, especially when our food or Drinks are too hot.

[Tom Spinka]

I think pretty much everybody knows that if you blow air over a surface, the surface can be cooled down, right? I mean, people are familiar with soup, right? You blow on it a little bit, cools down, then you can eat your soup. One of Livermore's innovations was being able to adapt that same concept to solid laser materials. And so we basically chop up the laser material into a number of different slabs and then flow gas through the gaps between those slabs. And we do that at very rapid speeds, basically approaching that of how fast an airplane flies. And then you can use that very rapid exchange of gas and the gas interacting with the solid materials to extract the heat.

[Narrator]

To truly unlock the potential of high energy, high repetition rate lasers, scientists also need the right materials, ones that can be easily and cheaply energized and can handle the heat while maintaining good beam quality. But finding a laser material that can deliver in these areas without other serious downsides is a significant challenge. The BAT laser answers that challenge.

[Jackson Williams]

The bat laser, or a big aperture thuleum, is a laser that is a new gain media that allows us to be more efficient and run at faster repetition rates.

[Narrator]

The bat laser was designed at Lawrence Livermore and represents a new generation of high repetition rate systems built to deliver precision, speed and endurance.

[Jackson Williams]

So Instead of the NIF, which is one every four hours, this laser system can run at 10,000 times per second.

[Narrator]

The BAT laser is one of the most advanced systems to come out of the APT program and contains a new kind of medium, thulium. Thulium is a rare earth element that is mixed or doped into a common laser crystal known as yttrium lithium fluoride, or yilf, creating a goldilocks material. For the bat laser, Its material properties, like strength and thermal conductivity are very good, not outstanding, but its energy storage lifetime is exceptional. Most importantly, thulium doped yilf doesn't have a significant weakness as it's used in the bat laser. There is no other known material with this combination. Beyond the technical advantages, there's beauty.

[Tom Spinka]

A lot of laser crystals are really beautiful physically. If you pick them up and hold them, they're just stunningly perfect pieces of material, actually kind of like people use in jewelry. And actually, many of the same crystals that are used in jewelry are good hosts for the atoms that you can use to store energy and then extract energy.

[Narrator]

In lasers, innovation can come with remarkable surprises. And today, advanced lasers are powerful, complex research platforms operated by expert teams in controlled environments, eventually coming into mainstream use. The challenge ahead is transitioning These systems, from the lab to the real world.

[Jackson Williams]

Right now, they are very much scientific research tools. These are lasers that only really work in the hands of experts and usually a team of experts. And so one of the places that Lawrence Livermore really shines is being able to take a idea on paper and develop it to the place where we know it will work and have a pathway towards a full system engineer. And then we are the partners to industry to be able to say here's how we did it, here's the pathways we think that can be economically feasible going forward. And then it's a technology transfer out into industry for them to be able to offer that as a product.

[Narrator]

So what does the near future look like for advanced lasers?

[Tom Spinka]

Laser technology. And laser technology development is absolutely directly applicable to inertial fusion energy and being able to use the same power source that powers the sun here on Earth. So lasers and laser technology developments are going to be needed.

[Narrator]

Similar to the experiments at the National Ignition Facility that create energy gains, inertial fusion energy uses lasers to generate the extreme heat and pressure required for fusion. Translating that approach to a fusion power plant presents many challenges, including the use of extremely robust and reliable lasers. But the work being done through APT research is laying the groundwork for that essential laser science of the future. From powering future energy systems like fusion, to exploring unimagined ideas, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory is where scientific creativity meets world changing potential.

[Jackson Williams]

The best part about working at the lab is being able to test wild ideas and being able to go out and have a nugget of an idea and to develop that into a place where it's a hypothesis. And then you test that hypothesis and have a finding. Whether it works or it doesn't work, at least you know that there's an answer there.

[Narrator]

Advanced lasers are being built, tested and refined every day. The work is complex, but the direction is clear. More precision, more power, and more potential to impact the world. Looking for a career that challenges and inspires, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory is hiring for a safety basis, analyst, research scientist, cell biology and an electrical designer, along with many other roles in science, technology, engineering and beyond. At the lab, every role contributes to groundbreaking projects in national security, advanced computing and scientific research, all within a collaborative, mission driven environment. Discover Open [e-mail] careers where big ideas come to life. Thank you for tuning in to Big Ideas Lab. If you loved what you heard, please let us know by leaving a rating and review. And if you haven't already, don't forget to hit the follow or subscribe button in your podcast app to keep up with our latest episode. Episode. Thanks for listening.