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Big Ideas Lab
Jupiter Laser Facility
00:21:42
From fusion experiments to cancer-fighting tech, the Jupiter Laser Facility is where bold ideas meet billion-watt lasers.
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- [00:01]
Host
Since their invention in 1960, lasers have been a staple of science fiction. From Stormtroopers, iconic Pew Pew blasters, to the precision laser scanners used by Starfleet for analyzing alien worlds. But beyond sci fi, lasers are an essential part of our everyday lives in ways we often overlook.
- [00:27]
Co-Host
From the mundane, they can scan barcodes.
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Host
To the life changing, they can operate.
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Co-Host
On eyes in a few hours. To the extraordinary, they can recreate environments that you only find in stars and planets.
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Host
But what's next? How will we use lasers in the next decade and beyond? And how do we get to that next big breakthrough? It starts where all major innovations begin, by giving young scientists and great minds a place to test their ideas.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
A lot of laser systems, you are not able to use them or to access them the way that you're able to use and access JLF.
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Co-Host
JLF has been a beacon in science for 50 years.
- [01:18]
Host
At the Jupiter Laser Facility or JLF, scientists at any level, from students to seasoned veterans, can experience the magic of laser experimentation.
- [01:32]
Elizabeth Simpson Grace
They're more open to trying new things at JLF than at a lot of different facilities. So it's really like a scientist's dream place.
- [01:40]
Host
It's where breakthroughs happen and where anyone could spark the next great discovery. JLF isn't just a place for science. It's a proving ground for the future. A place where bold questions are asked, wild ideas are tested, and the boundaries of what lasers can do are constantly being redefined. So what exactly is happening behind JLF's doors? And what does it feel like to fire a laser powerful enough to mimic a star? Stick around, because in this episode, we're going inside. Welcome to the Big Ideas lab. Your exploration inside Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. Hear untold stories, meet boundary pushing pioneers, and get unparalleled access inside the gates. From national security challenges to computing revolutions, discover the innovations that are shaping tomorrow. Today. You may have heard about the National Ignition Facility, or nif, from our previous episodes. It's home to the biggest and most powerful laser in the world. But NIF only began operating in 2009. The Jupiter Laser Facility, or JLF, is one of its predecessors.
- [03:13]
Co-Host
A lot of these ideas and techniques that are done at NIF have started at glf. Whether it's designing experiments that help do fusion, whether it's designing diagnostics, designing experiments that allow us to understand how matters behaves under extreme states and conditions.
- [03:34]
Host
That's Felicie Albert, the director of the Jupiter Laser Facility.
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Co-Host
We think of GLF as the great, great grandfather of NEF. So 1974 is when the first laser was built. It was initially a modest laser system.
- [03:52]
Host
The first laser was called Janus, named after the Roman God with two faces, one looking to the past and the other to the future. It's a fitting name because this laser didn't just split its beams, it split open a new frontier in science.
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Co-Host
That is where Livermorph experiments on fusion started.
- [04:15]
Host
Housed in a room filled with gleaming optics, wires and cooling systems, Janus might not look like a God, but it was the birthplace of Livermore's earliest fusion experiments. Pioneering efforts to recreate the extreme conditions found in stars. And incredibly, this 50 year old laser is still in use today. It's been updated, of course, but at its core, Janus continues to do what it's always test bold ideas. Over the years, its success led to a growing family of lasers.
- [04:51]
Co-Host
After Janus, Livermore went on to bigger and bigger laser systems.
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Host
With each new breakthrough, JLF attracted more scientists. It became a hub, a place where some of the world's most advanced high energy density experiments took shape.
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Co-Host
In 2008, we officially became a user facility that users could access at no cost.
- [05:17]
Host
JLF became a place where researchers from across the US and the world could come test their ideas. Anyone from a graduate student with a crazy hypothesis to a senior physicist chasing their next big result could apply to use these multimillion dollar machines. And if accepted, they could fire the lasers themselves.
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Co-Host
Just last year in 2024, we had 65 unique users. They come from other national labs, from academia, from international institutions. We welcome everyone.
- [05:52]
Host
And JLF's commitment to open access science doesn't stop there. The lab has also helped launch LaserNet US, a national network of 13 high powered laser facilities.
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Co-Host
In 2018, the US National Academy of Sciences looked at the state of laser research in the US and in particular for a special kind of laser which we call high intensity lasers. And they noticed that that while the US was a leader in that field in the 1980s, 1990s, it was starting to lose that leadership. So one of the recommendations was the Department of Energy should create a network of high intensity laser facilities in the US to really allow the community to rally around the research of such facilities. So that's when the DOE launched LaserNet US in 2018 and the Jupiter Laser Facility was a founding member. Since then, we've evolved into a network of 13 high power laser facilities and supporting capabilities. We've grown into a user base of over 400 users. We've done over 140 experiments at various facilities and we're really located all across North America from coast to coast, and we even have a facility in Canada.
- [07:26]
Host
LaserNet US is designed to give scientists unmatched access to world class technology. It's one more way JLF helps democratize discovery.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
I am Elizabeth Simpson Grace. I'm a postdoctoral fellow at the lab.
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Host
Liz is one of the many scientists or users who utilize the lasers at JLF to conduct experiments.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
They're more open to trying new things at JLF than at a lot of different facilities.
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Co-Host
When a user comes, they are here for four weeks. They collect their data, they do their experiments, and then they just tear down and make room for the next group coming to the facility. We can support about 15 experiments every year. We have three different platforms. They have different characteristics depending on what users want to do with them.
- [08:15]
Host
These three lasers are Janus, Titan and Comet. As we mentioned, the laser Janus is designed with two independent long pulsed lasers. In laser terminology, a long pulse refers to a burst of light lasting nanoseconds. Still incredibly short by everyday standards, but much longer than ultrafast lasers which emit pulses measured in femtoseconds. These nanosecond pulses allow scientists to precisely deliver energy in quick bursts rather than as a continuous beam.
- [08:51]
Elizabeth Simpson Grace
The laser pulses themselves have a duration. It's not just a continuous stream of energy.
- [08:57]
Host
It's like hitting a nail with a hammer. A short, large burst of power. Janus can run every 30 minutes, allowing for multiple tests per day. This makes it an ideal tool for fine tuning experiments before testing them on a larger scale.
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Co-Host
At Niff, the National Ignition Facility owes its successes to over 100 diagnostics that allow scientists to understand the experiments.
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Host
These diagnostics are like the eyes and ears of an experiment. They track what's happening inside a laser shot in real time by measuring energy, temperature, radiation and more.
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Co-Host
It's really a pride for us to say that some of these diagnostics were developed at jlf.
- [09:45]
Host
The second laser, Titan, can run just as many experiments per day as Janus, but it has the option to run a long or a short pulse. Titan's short pulses can reach durations as brief as 500 femtoseconds. That's 500 quadrillions of a second compared to Janus, which emissions pulses between 1 and 20 nanoseconds. Titan shots are over 2000 times shorter. To visualize that 500 femtoseconds is to 1 hour, as an hour is to the age of the universe. These short bursts allow researchers to explore extreme physics on unimaginably fast timescales. Capturing moments that would otherwise be invisible. Long and short pulses deliver different heat factors. Deciding which laser pulse to use Is up to each specific scientist and the needs of their experiment.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
It depends on the physics that you're interested in. And if you want to study something that's super high temperature, Then you want your short pulse and your high intensity. And if you want to study a lower temperature system, Then you would apply the long pulse to it.
- [10:54]
Host
Titan can do both. It's why it's the most popular and in demand laser at jlf.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
It's like mini nif, basically.
- [11:02]
Host
And finally, there's comet. This laser system can run 15 shots per hour, Making it a very popular system for diagnostic testing.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
At comet, you have a higher repetition rate. You can get a laser pulse every five minutes. Compared to NIF, where you get two laser pulses a day, Comet provides two every 10 minutes. So even if you can't study it at the energies that you have at nif, you can still gain insight into a piece of that physics.
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Host
It's a veritable buffet of lasers.
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Co-Host
We have a joke that says we're not Lawrence Livermore national laboratory with the lasers. Lasers, nothing but lasers.
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Host
And their applications are immense.
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Co-Host
One thing we like to do at the lab with lasers Is shoot things and bring them to extreme temperatures and pressures.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
Laser pulses can do crazy things.
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Host
Lasers are at the forefront of breakthroughs in healthcare. They're already used in countless medical therapies, including lasik, eye surgery, and dental procedures. But researchers are hoping to push those boundaries even further.
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Co-Host
There are scientists who are thinking about using them for creating sources for radiation therapy to. To help treat cancers. There are scientists who are looking at ways to use these lasers for techniques to really image your body with better precision.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
The field is working towards using proton sources generated by lasers to try to destroy tumors.
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Co-Host
The list of breakthroughs is really hard to quantify, But I'm just amazed at our users who come with breakthroughs every time they do an experiment at the facility.
- [12:51]
Host
That's what's so incredible about the lab. If someone has a great idea, they don't have to be far into their career to get a shot at seeing it through. They can even be a student.
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Co-Host
It's funny because for all the kids who like to just play with things and build things, Building a laser is actually not that different.
- [13:11]
Host
Felicie built her first laser when she was 22, an undergrad, with a desk full of parts and no clear instructions, Just a challenge. A mirror here, a crystal there. Hours spent aligning beams and adjusting angles. And then suddenly light a laser beam. That first wow moment still fuels her today. While Felicie no longer runs experiments herself, she now leads the facility that makes those moments possible for others. As director of jlf, she supports and guides the next generation of scientists as they pursue discoveries of their own.
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Co-Host
We need a stem workforce to maintain strong leadership in science and in technology. We need to continue to train young scientists and ensure they get into the field.
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Host
Liz and her work are a great example of this.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
It was during the second year of my PhD program that my advisor recommended that I spend a summer at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory at the Jupiter Laser Facility. I had a really great internship there, and that was how I got into plasma physics.
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Host
Liz specializes in high energy density science, which is testing how different matter reacts under immense amounts of pressure.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
One example of that is we can use a short pulse laser system to create particle beams. What happens is the laser pushes the electrons out from the target material, and then it creates a kind of slingshot where the protons shoot out and they become ballistic, meaning that they have really high energies. Depending on the laser system, you can get up to 100 mega electrons, volt proton energies.
- [15:07]
Host
That's enough concentrated energy to raise the temperature of water from 0 to 1 degree Celsius, which doesn't sound like a lot until you remember those laser beams are only active for a nanosecond or less. And that seemingly small temperature change is the difference between ice and liquid water. When you make that kind of shift in a big billionth of a second, you're recreating the intense, fast physics of things like nuclear explosions or stellar formation.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
You can get these really powerful high flux and high energy particle sources.
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Host
It's a small test that Liz and the folks at Livermore are hoping to use on a much larger scale. But even before her research creating particle sources, Liz utilized the resources at JLF to develop a solution for a widespread challenge she and other scientists faced. Capturing and interpreting all of the properties of each laser pulse within a single experiment.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
It's actually really hard to get a complete picture of the way that the pulses evolve in both space and time and color on a single laser pulse.
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Host
Capturing all of that in real time is no small feat. A laser pulse might last just 500 femtoseconds and span only 150 microns, roughly the width of a human hair. Trying to measure everything happening in that instant is like trying to capture a lightning strike with a single camera, one frame at a time. By the time you've caught the beginning, the Rest has already vanished. If you could only use one camera, taking one photo at a time, you'd never get a cohesive full image.
- [17:01]
Elizabeth Simpson Grace
It's not super plausible that the laser would be exactly the same. For all that time. We worked on developing a method that can take all of this information at once, which is Striped Fish. Spatially and Temporally Resolved Intensity and Phase evaluation Device. Full information from a single hologram.
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Host
Striped Fish captures a complete snapshot of the laser's behavior in a single shot, including how it shifts, stretches and changes color across space and time. It creates what's called a temporally integrated image, combining everything that happens during the laser pulse into a single frame.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
This diagnostic takes all of the information at once. We actually make a digital hologram of the laser pulse.
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Host
This hologram reveals how the pulse behaves across space and color, what scientists call its spatial and spectral dependence. And with that insight, researchers can quickly catch flaws, make adjustments, and fine tune their experiments with precision. Even more impressive than the striped fish program itself, Liz helped develop and improve it. As a student, that work was the.
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Elizabeth Simpson Grace
Focus of my PhD. The thing I like the most about JLF is how hands on it is and how even as a student, I was able to get my hands dirty. It's so unique. Not a lot of these high intensity laser systems exist and you have all of these incredibly competent technical staff who help to provide resources and training and learn as you work. They provide so much support to users in general. And there's always somebody that you can talk to if you're having a problem with different aspects of your experiment.
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Host
Countless scientists, like both Felice and Liz choose to stay at the lab after their time as students. This is partly because JLF provides state of the art facilities, but also due to a broader culture at the lab of perseverance and encouragement.
- [19:00]
Co-Host
At the lab, I found a very supportive environment. Every day is different and I can just come do an experiment. Okay, maybe it's not going to work, but then I will try again. If something fails, it's not because you are a failure. It's because sometimes things don't work and just keep going.
- [19:19]
Host
It's that attitude that makes a career at JLF so rewarding.
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Co-Host
There's never a boring moment in my job. I will interact with people, doing theory, doing technical work, building parts, machining parts. I will interact with other scientists. I will travel. I've traveled the world to see other scientists and give presentations and collaborate.
- [19:43]
Elizabeth Simpson Grace
I really loved being in the lab and that was what JLF uniquely provided. The data doesn't come alive in the same way as if you took the data yourself. You have a sort of connection to the place and to the laser. Creating that yourself is a very different feeling from being handed a data set.
- [19:59]
Host
It's the difference between watching a video of a roller coaster and being on one. There's nothing like the rush of experiencing it for yourself and between national security, accelerating particles, understanding materials in extreme conditions, recreating the insides of stars, and potential medical advancements. The Jupiter Laser Facility and its scientists never stop searching for the next adrenaline rush inducing breakthrough. Maybe the next lightsaber won't be wielded by a Jedi, but by a grad student in the laser lab. Maybe the next world changing, energetic breakthrough won't come from a galaxy far, far away, but from right here in Livermore. And maybe the next big idea in science fiction will be inspired by real science, fired through a beam line, tested by someone like Felicia or Liz, and aimed straight at the future.
- [20:59]
Elizabeth Simpson Grace
I'm most excited to see where the science is going to take us.
- [21:03]
Co-Host
Really? The possibility possibilities are endless at jlf.
- [21:06]
Host
The Force is science and the future that's being built one laser shot at a time. Thank you for tuning in to Big Ideas Lab. If you loved what you heard, please let us know by leaving a rating and review. And if you haven't already, don't forget to hit the Follow or Subscribe button in your podcast app to keep up with our latest episode. Thanks for listening.