The Sixth Bureau Episode 4: The Duck Analogy

Summary

Big Take Podcast – The Sixth Bureau, Episode 4: The Duck Analogy

Date: February 27, 2026
Hosts: Drake Bennett, Jordan Robertson
Main Interviewee: FBI Special Agent Bradley Hall

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Episode Overview

This gripping episode delves into the inner workings and critical turning points of the FBI’s operation to turn a Chinese intelligence officer, Xu Yanjun, into a known entity—culminating in a rare and dangerous double-agent play involving a GE engineer, David Jun. The episode illustrates the challenges of catching a skilled spy and the high-stakes decisions faced by U.S. intelligence and a major American corporation. The “duck analogy” becomes the motif for identifying true intelligence activity when “it quacks and has webbed feet.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How the Case Began: From Airport Security to FBI Desk

• (01:49–04:58)
  • The episode opens with the question: How did the FBI first come across both GE engineer David Jun and MSS operative Xu Yanjun?
  • Trigger: Upon returning from China, Jun is flagged for secondary screening at the airport due to suspicious booking (last minute/cash)—and is found carrying $16,000 in unexplained cash.
  • The details of what exactly triggered the flag are shrouded in confidentiality, but the sequence is clear: the digital and physical breadcrumbs were enough to attract FBI interest.
  • Quote:
    • “That was not well explained. And that's a starting point for this case.” – Bradley Hall (03:08)
• (04:42)
  • The lead falls to Bradley Hall as the only FBI counterintelligence agent in Cincinnati, where GE Aviation (and David Jun) is based.

2. The Gray Area of Counterintelligence

• (04:58–05:25)
  • Hall reflects on the nuances of spy-hunting as the most challenging area within the FBI:
    • “Counterintelligence exists in the gray. These are people who are trained to blend in, who are trained to do things that look normal. So to find that piece of illegality is very, very difficult.” – Bradley Hall (04:58)
• (05:47)
  • Hall describes his motivation and the demands of the job:
    • “If you have a GS15 ASAC sitting in front of you saying, the hardest thing that we do is counterintelligence, that piqued my interest.” – Bradley Hall (05:47)

3. Corporate Dilemmas: GE’s Role

• (06:08–08:36)
  • The FBI approaches GE seeking cooperation—an enormous internal conflict, as exposure could threaten both GE’s reputation and major military contracts.
  • Quote:
    • “Are you prepared to expose this to DOD ... that shows that you were sloppy with their IP or with your IP buddy, that is a bad message all the way across the board.” – Art Cummings, former GE security chief (07:02)
  • Ultimately, GE agrees to collaborate with the FBI—after weighing the risks.

4. Technical Stakes: The Targeted Technology

• (07:36–08:05)
  • David Jun worked on GE’s carbon fan blades—the “crown jewel” technology vital to advanced jet engines, making the threat existential.
  • Quote:
    • “GE is the only company in the world that has ever commercialized this technique ... They are the crown jewel of jet engines.” – Bradley Hall (07:52)
    • “The loss of their most advanced commercial jet engine is a billion dollars if they lost it.” – Jordan Robertson (08:05)

5. Turning the Insider: The Art and Psychology of Flipping

• (08:55–12:23)
  • Hall’s objective: turn David Jun into a double agent.
  • FBI and GE security interrogate Jun over suspicious file transfers and the unexplained cash.
  • Interrogation Scene:
    • Jun omits references to a university talk in Nanjing; agents gradually unspool his cover stories with existing evidence.
    • “I call it progressive truth telling. I let them tell the lie, and then I go back and I counter it point by point.” – Bradley Hall (15:05)
    • Jun ultimately breaks down under the pressure—admitting he knew the payment was “dark money” (17:33).

6. Human Motivation Behind Espionage

• (18:09–18:35)
  • Jun’s rural background and desire for recognition made him a natural target for MSS recruitment.
  • Quote:
    • “He came from a very rural village ... one of about 10 to 12 engineers who worked specifically on carbon fan blades ... frankly, this was a chance for him to brag about it.” – Bradley Hall (18:09)

7. The Double Cross: David Jun’s Cooperation

• (19:29–21:27)
  • Facing severe consequences, Jun opts to cooperate with the FBI, signing a non-prosecution agreement.
  • Quote:
    • “You didn't set off to do this. They came to you. So how about we go get them?” – Bradley Hall (19:49)

8. Setting the Trap: Tactics in Digital Espionage

• (23:58–26:12)
  • Jun resumes contact with his Chinese handlers, subtly baiting Xu Yanjun to reveal himself.
  • Strategic use of Chinese New Year as a red herring to avoid meeting on Xu’s home turf.
  • The “duck analogy” surfaces:
    • “If it quacks and has webbed feet, you think it's a duck. We had feet in quacking at that point.” – Bradley Hall (26:02)

9. The Digital Breadcrumbs: Unraveling Xu Yanjun

• (26:30–29:36)
  • Xu’s sloppiness in using Gmail and iCloud gives the FBI unprecedented access to his personal documents—including an official MSS cadre form.
  • Quote:
    • “It's the MSS officer's life from when he started college ... every major progression in his career.” – Interpreter via Bradley Hall (27:17)
    • “That was the thing that took a case that was going fast and made it go lightspeed.” – Bradley Hall (28:20)
    • “We know it's a duck.” – Bradley Hall (28:36)

10. Next-Level Spycraft: Psychological Profiling

• (29:45–30:50)
  • Analysis of Xu’s diary reveals vulnerabilities, pettiness, and internal frustrations—pinpointing psychological levers to influence his choices.
  • Quote:
    • “I now knew where all his little buttons were ... allows you to tweak what you put in the message on a daily basis.” – Bradley Hall (30:25)

11. Luring Xu to Neutral Ground

• (30:50–37:51)
  • The agents use misdirection (work trip to France) and careful “gifts” of harmless files to cultivate Xu’s trust.
  • Xu requires increasing reassurance about the source, culminating in a high-stakes, tightly coached phone call where logistics are managed minute by minute by the agents.
  • Xu ultimately agrees to meet David in Europe—a colossal breakthrough for the FBI.

12. The High Stakes for Both Sides

• (37:51–38:42)
  • Excitement mounts in both FBI and MSS headquarters—both believing they are on the cusp of a career-defining victory.
  • Quote:
    • “You’re going head to head with very smart people on both ends. And each side has to be smarter than the other.” – James Olson, former CIA Chief of Counterintelligence (38:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the gray nature of spy hunting:
  • “Counterintelligence exists in the gray ... very, very difficult.” – Bradley Hall (04:58)
• On the corporate dilemma:
  • “Are you prepared to expose this to DOD ... that shows you were sloppy with their IP?” – Art Cummings (07:02)
• On the duck analogy:
  • “If it quacks and has webbed feet, you think it's a duck. We had feet in quacking at that point.” – Bradley Hall (26:02)
• On digital mistakes by a professional spy:
  • “Let’s just take a moment here to reflect on the sloppiness of a Chinese spy relying on American tech companies ... it’s pretty wild.” – Jordan Robertson (28:38)
• On the psychological edge:
  • “I now knew where all his little buttons were.” – Bradley Hall (30:25)
• On the climax of the sting operation:
  • “He’s coming our way.” – Jordan Robertson (38:46)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:49 – Introduction of Special Agent Bradley Hall and how the case landed in Cincinnati
• 03:02 – Discovery of unexplained $16,000 cash
• 04:58 – Counterintelligence’s uniquely gray zone, Hall’s career motivation
• 06:08–08:36 – The corporate risk debate at GE
• 08:55 – FBI proposal to turn David into a double agent
• 13:23–17:23 – The layered interrogation of David Jun
• 19:29 – David’s path to cooperation and non-prosecution deal
• 25:03–26:12 – Use of Chinese New Year as a tactical misdirection; introduction of the “duck analogy”
• 27:05 – The breakthrough: Xu’s MSS cadre form found via cloud warrants
• 29:45–30:50 – Psychological profiling of Xu Yanjun using his diary
• 34:51–37:24 – The critical phone call; Xu agrees to meet in Europe
• 38:00–38:46 – Assessment of the operation’s stakes by former CIA Chief James Olson

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Tone and Style Notes

• The style alternates between tense, suspenseful narration and the dry, analytical language of counterintelligence professionals.
• Occasional wry humor and candid insights from agents break the tension.
• Empathetic undertones emerge when discussing David Jun’s personal vulnerabilities.

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Summary

This episode spotlights the high-wire act of catching—and proving—the identity of a foreign intelligence officer operating in the U.S. Through a blend of airport security, digital forensics, corporate collaboration, psychological manipulation, and careful strategy, the FBI manages to flip an engineer and set a trap that could ensnare a Chinese spy. The “duck analogy” encapsulates the challenge: gather so much compelling evidence that there is no doubt left—even in the murky world of espionage.

Don’t miss the dramatic setup for the next episode, where the operation moves to its high-stakes climax in Europe.

Transcript

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[Drake Bennett]

Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News A

[Jordan Robertson]

quick note this is the fourth episode of our series. If you missed the first three, we recommend going back and listening in order. Thanks.

[Bradley Hall]

Who are we here to talk about Xu Yanjun?

[Drake Bennett]

Jordan and I are in Cincinnati, across a table from FBI Special Agent Bradley Hall. You've been hearing Bradley talk about Xu over the last couple episodes, but now you're going to hear from him in a different way. You're going to hear about his own involvement in this case, which begins when GE engineer David Jun comes back from his trip to China, the trip where he met Xu Yanjun.

[Jordan Robertson]

When we sat down with Bradley, we already knew how David had gotten on Xu's radar. LinkedIn but that didn't explain how David had gotten on the FBI's radar, or for that matter, how Shue did. And that was something we really wanted to know. So how does this case begin for you?

[Bradley Hall]

So when you guys flew here, I imagine you had digital tickets, right?

[Jordan Robertson]

Right.

[Bradley Hall]

If you buy a ticket last minute, or you buy it in cash, or there's a number of different traits. The airlines are required to report that to tsa. And if you ever get a ticket, it has four S's on it. It means you've hit two or three of those criteria, which usually means someone's going to give you a secondary search. Well, when the GE engineering returned to the United States from his trip to China, he had these codes on his ticket. He was offered a secondary inspection, at

[Jordan Robertson]

which point they found cash on David Jun. A lot of cash. $16,000.

[Bradley Hall]

That was not well explained. And that's a starting point for this case.

[Drake Bennett]

And so, like, did Zhang buy his ticket with cash for last minute, or was there something else that led to him being secondaried? Is there anything we can say about that?

[Bradley Hall]

I actually don't know the answer to that question.

[Drake Bennett]

Okay,

[Jordan Robertson]

can we talk any more about the secondary? It seems like even if you had maybe known something before, is that kind of the first moment we can talk about in his case?

[Bradley Hall]

I don't know if I can get any more detail than that.

[Jordan Robertson]

Okay, so he was secondaried. He did have his cash. Right. It sounds like this was the moment that kind of led to everything else that we then have. Is that roughly correct?

[Bradley Hall]

No, let's just leave it at that for now, I think.

[Jordan Robertson]

Okay. So Bradley was not going to tell us where this case started. And as much as we tried, we could never get anyone to tell us where this case started. We do know there were a bunch of hacks the FBI traced to the Six Bureau years before, which allowed them to see some of Hsu's colleagues correspondence with each other. We also know that cases like this one can start with the NSA flagging some email address or text or geotag or really any sort of digital footprint we're leaving behind all the time. And so we think it's likely that at least one of Hsu's email addresses was flagged before he started talking with David Jr. So when he did, the FBI noticed, got David secondaried at the airport, and found the cash.

[Drake Bennett]

And when the lead about Hsu and David came in, it landed on Bradley Hall's desk. Because David Jeun worked at GE Aviation, which was headquartered in Cincinnati, and Bradley was the FBI's only counterintelligence agent there.

[Bradley Hall]

We are spy hunters. We spy on the spies. We track the people whose job it is to not be recognized, to not be identified, to blend in. A drug dealer sells drugs, right? That's ipso facto illegal. It's very black and white. Counterintelligence exists in the gray These are people who are trained to blend in, who are trained to do things that look normal. So to find that piece of illegality is very, very difficult.

[Drake Bennett]

Bradley is an intense guy. I mean, we talked to him for almost six hours. We ate lunch. He didn't. We drank coffee, he didn't. We sipped from our bottles of water. He basically didn't. Can I take some water?

[Bradley Hall]

No, I'm fine.

[Drake Bennett]

He's worked counterintelligence for his entire FBI career, and he chose it because someone told him it was the most challenging thing the Bureau does.

[Bradley Hall]

If you have a GS15 ASAC sitting in front of you saying, the hardest thing that we do is counterintelligence, that piqued my interest.

[Drake Bennett]

But spy hunting isn't always as badass as it sounds. For instance, the first thing Bradley had to do after getting this lead was go to David Jung's employer and ask for their help.

[Bradley Hall]

We went to GE and said, you know, we have a concern. We by no means have a full picture, but we would like you to work with us.

[Jordan Robertson]

The Bureau came in and said, you

[Bradley Hall]

guys have a problem.

[Jordan Robertson]

This is Art Cummings, who at the time was chief security officer for all of GE's businesses.

[Bradley Hall]

This is your problem.

[Jordan Robertson]

But this is the opportunity, the opportunity to work together to potentially expose this

[Bradley Hall]

intelligence officer whose job is to steal IP from American companies.

[Jordan Robertson]

That's just a beautiful operation. Beautiful for the FBI, but not necessarily for ge.

[Bradley Hall]

A lot of companies would have said, thank you very much, what's the person's name, fired them, and walked away from

[Jordan Robertson]

it because the proposal raised serious risks. Helping an investigation that might lead to a trial would only draw attention to the fact that GE had had a security breach, which is a bad look when one of the major buyers of your jet engines is the US Military. I'm like, guys, are you prepared to expose this to DOD that you have billions of dollars of business with that shows that you were sloppy with their IP or with your IP buddy, that is a bad message all the way across the board. Plus, GE does a lot of business in China. Working with the FBI on a case that accused China of stealing trade secrets could jeopardize that business. But not working with the FBI came with its own risks. The fact that the MSS was targeting David Jun meant they were after some of GE's most sensitive information.

[Bradley Hall]

He was one of about 10 to 12 engineers who worked specifically on carbon fan blades and carbon fan blade encasements on the GE engine system series.

[Jordan Robertson]

That's a very small group of people working on a Very important technology.

[Bradley Hall]

Yes. GE is the only company in the world that has ever commercialized this technique. Many have tried and failed, but GE is the only one. They are the crown jewel of jet engines.

[Jordan Robertson]

I'd say the loss of their most advanced commercial jet engine is a billion dollars if they lost it.

[Bradley Hall]

And there's future revenue and then there's just that generation.

[Jordan Robertson]

The next generation jet engine builds on that one and then the next one on that one, and then the next one on that one. That's real art isn't at GE anymore. We tried repeatedly to talk to the company for the story, but they declined to comment each time.

[Drake Bennett]

Ultimately, GE did decide to cooperate with the FBI.

[Bradley Hall]

There were enough people, particularly in the C suite, who were open to the idea of, okay, let's work with the FBI and see what we can do to protect ourselves.

[Drake Bennett]

So GE was in, but Bradley still had to convince one more person to get on board. David Jun. Oh.

[Bradley Hall]

I wanted to turn him, to use him to operate against the mss.

[Drake Bennett]

Bradley wanted to make David his double.

[Jordan Robertson]

A double is someone who represents himself or herself as cooperating with the Foreign Intelligence Service, but actually under the control of our service. And it is a very delicate kind of operation because you have to persuade professional counterintelligence people on the other side that this is legitimate.

[Drake Bennett]

As a double agent. David would help the FBI try to learn the details of who this MSS officer actually was and maybe even help catch him. And it was a good moment to try. In 2017, Donald Trump had just taken office for the first time and his administration was gung ho about going after China. So there was support at the highest levels of government for nabbing an MSS officer. But actually pulling it off would be a real Hail Mary because it had literally never happened before.

[Bradley Hall]

There was a lot of, do you really think this is going to work? And your response was, I'm positive it's going to work.

[Jordan Robertson]

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[Drake Bennett]

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[Jordan Robertson]

On November 1, 2017, David Jund started his day like any other day. He woke up, he, he drove to work and then a few hours later he was called into a meeting by GE corporate security. The engineer doesn't know exactly how much hot water he's in. This is Mike Riegel, an agent who was pulled in to work with Bradley on the case. He had like an interaction with, you know, GE security people that was more like a general type discussion kind of an opener. GE security asked David about some unusual activity they'd noticed. Specifically the five sensitive files he transferred onto his personal computer before going to China.

[Bradley Hall]

They literally walk out, they say someone else wants to speak to you and

[Jordan Robertson]

then we come in. I'm sure his stress level went up a hundredfold because obviously the guy's kind of in shock. He comes for like, kind of like a meeting with security guys and two FBI people come walking in.

[Bradley Hall]

It was a room meant for 60, 70 people. And we're sat at one tiny little corner of a table. We indicate that we are there for the same reason that GE was there. These files were moved. We've learned from GE that they went to China. That's a concern for us. Let's talk about it. And that's how the conversation starts.

[Jordan Robertson]

You know, you could have somebody that just unburdens himself and says, I, I know what you guys are here about. He didn't do that. No.

[Drake Bennett]

They start by asking David about his trip to China. Why he went, what he did, who he saw.

[Jordan Robertson]

You have to kind of eat this steak in small bites.

[Drake Bennett]

David gives them a partial story.

[Bradley Hall]

He went to a wedding. He went to a class reunion. He visited family back in the provinces, and then he flew home.

[Drake Bennett]

He leaves out one thing. His talk in Nanjing at the university. So Bradley and Mike remind him.

[Bradley Hall]

We started talking about the fact that he had done a presentation without talking to ge.

[Jordan Robertson]

His brain is thinking, let me think of a way to get out of this. Can I think of a way to get out of this? Okay, let me give a different version of that. I gave a talk, but it's not on important stuff.

[Drake Bennett]

But Bradley and Mike already know exactly what GE files David took with him to China.

[Bradley Hall]

Here's the file that you downloaded on March 27th, and here's the image that has GE proprietary on it that you cropped out when you put in your PowerPoint.

[Jordan Robertson]

Oops. They know about that. They've got that PowerPoint.

[Bradley Hall]

There was a lot of I forgot to mentions.

[Drake Bennett]

Then they ask him about all the cash he came back with. He lies about the amount and says it was repayment for a loan.

[Bradley Hall]

I call it progressive truth telling. I let them tell the lie, and then I go back and I counter it point by point. I had the bank records that showed where he'd put the $16,000 in cash. I'm going to show you 10 ways past Sunday that I know what day you put the money in, what you count. It went to like, don't, don't, don't play. Right? Just, I know.

[Jordan Robertson]

So he's changing over time to the point where he emotionally just can't do it anymore.

[Bradley Hall]

Like, you could watch the realization wash over him that, oh, this is more than just, I downloaded some files I shouldn't have. This is now something else.

[Jordan Robertson]

The questions keep coming, and there doesn't seem to be any escape. When David gets Hungry. Bradley and Mike eat with him. When he has to go to the bathroom, they go with him. The walls were closing in. It's a voluntary interview, and he needs to know during a voluntary interview that it's very important that he can leave.

[Drake Bennett]

Wasn't his car beat, towed, and, like,

[Jordan Robertson]

he couldn't drive away? Well, so there's being free to leave and, and, and having some logistical issues are two different things. Right? The logistical issues Mike is referring to. Look something like this. While the FBI is talking to David, his phone is confiscated, his car is seized from the GE parking lot, and his house is searched. Bradley hands him a phone so he can call his wife. They tell him to put her on speaker and to speak in English. David tells her not to go home

[Bradley Hall]

because the FBI had just kicked in their back door.

[Jordan Robertson]

It's a short call. He hangs up and the questioning continues. So this goes on for a long time to the point that he kind of. I remember him breaking down.

[Bradley Hall]

There's like a slumping of the shoulders. There's, you know, an audible exhale where they go from that person who thinks they're walking out of the room that day to somebody who realizes their life has fundamentally changed. We go from, you know, the proper engineer who sits up with his hands on the table. We start getting the lean back for the lies. And then by the end, you know, he's slumped down in the chair right before he actually, you know, starts to. Starts to tear up like he started crying.

[Jordan Robertson]

And finally telling the whole story, he

[Bradley Hall]

gives us as much as he could remember.

[Jordan Robertson]

David acknowledges that he knew something was fishy about the cash he was handed.

[Bradley Hall]

After his talk, he eventually called it dark money, that he had known he had received dark money from someone in China. So deep down, maybe not as he was initially given the presentation, but after the fact that realization was there, that he knew that it was dark money. He maybe not have known it was the MSS specifically, but at this point, you'd be hard pressed to be ignorant to that type of thing happening.

[Drake Bennett]

And yet Bradley and Mike couldn't help but empathize a little. Why being invited to share his expertise at this prestigious university in the country where he grew up was so appealing to David.

[Bradley Hall]

He came from a very rural village. He literally was the son of a pig farmer. Like, he grew up on dirt floors. He was the first person not only in his family, but from his village to go to college. He was one of about 10 to 12 engineers who worked specifically on carbon fan blades and carbon f and laid encasements and frankly, this was a chance for him to brag about it. I know the secret sauce. I'm one of very few people can do it. So there was an ego part to it.

[Jordan Robertson]

Right. And I understand that. I understand that motivation that this guy basically is like, I'm proud of my work. I like what I do. I'm excited about this. The MSS preyed on people that want to talk about what they do. Cause they're proud of it, they're excited about it, they find it interesting. It's like, hey, we'd really like to hear about this. This sounds like great stuff. Would you like to come give a talk about this? Is that ego? Yes, I guess it kind of is, but it's.

[Drake Bennett]

It's human, yeah. David was suspended without pay and eventually let go. But unemployment wasn't the worst thing he was facing. He could see possible prison time for violating export control laws and for lying to federal agents. Or he could cooperate.

[Bradley Hall]

You say, okay, there is a path forward. And you start to talk very gently about what that path can look like and that hopefully at the end will improve their position. Vice where it is right now, which is pretty bad. We couched it like this. You did wrong. You know you did wrong. You lied to me. You kept lying to me. You finally told me the truth. But you didn't set off to do this. They came to you. So how about we go get them?

[Drake Bennett]

They told him to sleep on it. It had been a long day, a really long day.

[Jordan Robertson]

I was exhausted. You know, the interview was hours. I can't remember the exact number. For some reason, seven sticks in my brain. But it's hours long.

[Bradley Hall]

Seven hours and 42 minutes.

[Drake Bennett]

When it was done, Bradley and Mike drove David home because he had no car or phone.

[Jordan Robertson]

What was that ride like?

[Bradley Hall]

Quiet.

[Jordan Robertson]

You're hearing only from Bradley and Mike here because as we said in the last episode, we tried really hard to talk to David Jeun, but he wouldn't talk to us. We didn't get to hear from him directly what that day and night was like for him and how he went about weighing his options.

[Drake Bennett]

Agreeing to be a double would be a huge risk for David. He'd be going up against the powerful intelligence apparatus of China, the country where he was born and raised and still had family. He had good reason to say no. But it was that or those potential charges and prison time. So he agreed to cooperate. The next day he got a lawyer and signed a non prosecution agreement saying that no charges would be brought against him in return for working with the FBI, it was time to go spy hunting.

[Jordan Robertson]

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[Jordan Robertson]

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[Bradley Hall]

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[Bradley Hall]

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[Bradley Hall]

Investing Brokerage Services by open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA NSIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures

[Drake Bennett]

with David on board, the FBI made their first move. Under Bradley's direction, David got back in touch with his contacts in Nanjing. But he couldn't come on too strong.

[Jordan Robertson]

You can't like, get on there and say, I've got a big laptop and it's ready to go and guess What? I want 5 million and I want it in an offshore account and here's the number, right? He's immediately going to say, what the right. This is not for real. This is some. This is one of those FBI dorks, right?

[Drake Bennett]

Right. So they crafted a different kind of message to the person from Nuaa who had first invited David to come give a talk. Chen Fang. Teacher Chen, I plan to go visit my elderly parents around the new Year

[Jordan Robertson]

after wrapping up a big project.

[Drake Bennett]

Because they aren't in the best health after all. I likely won't have much time left with them. I feel like I need to fulfill my familial obligations.

[Jordan Robertson]

It'll be great to gather with old friends by then as well.

[Drake Bennett]

Offering to visit the university during Chinese New Year was an empty offer.

[Bradley Hall]

Chinese New Year is the single largest mass migration of people in the world on an annual basis. Everyone goes home to their own province or village or farm, etc. Wherever they came from. Which also means I can guarantee no one's going to be there for that period of time that we say that we're going. Because guess who's not going to be in school for Chinese New Year? Chen Fong or anyone else at Nuaa.

[Drake Bennett]

And it worked.

[Jordan Robertson]

Your trip back this time coincides with school holiday.

[Drake Bennett]

Most teachers and students will pretty much

[Jordan Robertson]

be back to their hometowns.

[Drake Bennett]

Bradley was banking on the fact that with the campus empty for vacation, Chen Feng would pass off the hosting duties to someone else, someone who didn't actually have a university job. And Bradley was hoping it would be the important seeming official David had met on his trip, the man who had introduced himself as Chu Hui. Bradley suspected he was actually an MSS officer.

[Jordan Robertson]

I discussed with the section chief, Chu. We'll organize your exchange this time around.

[Drake Bennett]

Bingo.

[Bradley Hall]

I'll use this analogy. If it quacks and has webbed feet, you think it's a duck. We had feet in quacking at that point.

[Drake Bennett]

Even though Bradley suspected Chuhui was his guy, he still didn't have his real name and title. But Bradley was right about him being mss, because of course, Que was actually Xu Yanjun.

[Bradley Hall]

I knew what he was without knowing what he was, if that makes sense.

[Drake Bennett]

But he was about to, because Xu Yanjun had made a key mistake. Before David came to China, Xu had sent him an email pretending to be Chen Feng. And he had sent that email from a Gmail address, which meant the FBI could send search warrants to Google's parent company, Alphabet. Those warrant results revealed that the Gmail address was linked to an Apple icloud account. So the FBI sent warrants to Apple too. And with those results, Bradley came into some feathers in a bill in the form of one boring looking government document.

[Bradley Hall]

When I first saw it, I wasn't sure what it was because it was a Mandarin, but I saw a face in a military uniform, which makes it government. So we had a linguist, he translated it. He called me back kind of in a little flutter. Do you know what this is? I said, well, I don't know what it is. I'm going to guess. He said, it's better than what you're going to guess. It's the MSS officer's life from when he started college to when he joined the Communist Party to when he joined the Ministry for State Security, and then every major progression in his career after that fact.

[Drake Bennett]

It was an MSS cadre form, or basically Xu Yanjun's resume.

[Bradley Hall]

So I started sending communications back to FBI headquarters saying, known intelligence officer. And I got a. A little bit of a snarky call from a fairly high level analytical person at headquarters saying, well, why are you calling this individual known intelligence officer? Like that's the highest level we can get. We are positive this person is an intelligence officer because I had his spy CV in front of me and when I said that to them, there was like a pause on the call and then went, you have what? And it's not that it was confusion. Like, we know these things must exist, right? Just the first time we'd ever seen it. That was the thing that took a case that was going fast and made it go lightspeed.

[Jordan Robertson]

And why I have to be able

[Bradley Hall]

to prove he's an intelligence officer. This was definitive proof. Again, apologies for the duck reference. We know it's a duck.

[Jordan Robertson]

Let's just take a moment here to reflect on the sloppiness of a Chinese spy relying on American tech companies, Apple, Google, to conduct his top secret work. I mean, it's pretty wild.

[Bradley Hall]

We can throw shade at that as well, right? Okay. He was using the most popular cell phone in the world at the time. Shocking. Did he read the 45,000 pages that you have to sign on when you get an Apple product? He didn't, because he would have. I mean, if he'd have read, you know, paragraph 45, subsection 422, maybe he would have realized that.

[Jordan Robertson]

Right and shoe left all sorts of digital breadcrumbs. When you use your iPhone to take a photo, it captures GPS data. So the FBI was able to determine Shu's exact location. At the moment he snapped the photo of his cadre form that ended up in his icloud account, he was in Nanjing in the regional headquarters of the mss. So not the best tradecraft.

[Bradley Hall]

I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question of his life. And that's a unicorn.

[Jordan Robertson]

The warrant results kept coming back. There were emails and other sensitive documents. And there was the diary, that portal to Xu's life and habits and feelings. Played cards, lost. 710, 20th noon.

[Bradley Hall]

Peach June 22nd, flew to Paris.

[Drake Bennett]

I lost so much in the star market. Job undermined me.

[Jordan Robertson]

Having a leader like this, what's the point? And that was something Bradley could use. He began to build a sort of psychological profile of who Shue was and what he would respond to. And that became a guide for how David communicated with Shue and how they tried to get him to do what they wanted.

[Bradley Hall]

I now knew where all his little buttons were. When you're trying very subtly to craft a message that looks and appears and feels real to them, to know that level of detail about their life and their mindset, it allows you to tweak what you put in the message on a daily basis so that we could keep him talking to our cooperator and keep the case moving forward so that we could get to the ultimate end goal.

[Jordan Robertson]

Because Bradley wasn't just trying to talk to Xu. For his plan to work, Bradley needed to convince Xu to do things, things he wouldn't normally do, like let David choose where they would meet next, which wasn't going to be Nanjing. Obviously, we're not going to allow the engineer to go back to China. Okay, that's, you know, non starter.

[Drake Bennett]

Right. And why not?

[Jordan Robertson]

Because China is territory that we, we cannot control. Obviously, you know, you couldn't go with him, and we're not, certainly not going to allow him to go by himself. So while David and Xu are messaging back and forth, Xu is still under the impression that David is coming back to China for Chinese New Year. Like he had said, but he's not going to China for all the reasons Mike just said so they had to break the news that if they were going to meet, it would have to be somewhere else.

[Drake Bennett]

But Bradley knew that was potentially a deal breaker. Shue would be disappointed and might just walk away. So they had to be strategic about it. Because of the diary, Bradley knew all about Hsue's work resentments and the way he felt about his own superiors. March 27 John rejected meal receipt today

[Jordan Robertson]

Such an ungrateful person has no shame. I will have my revenge.

[Drake Bennett]

So they used that. Hello, session Chief Chu. I have unfortunate news to tell you. I can't go by for the New Year. The boss today requested material for my work trip to France.

[Bradley Hall]

The big bad boss.

[Drake Bennett]

There are lots to be done and he thinks it's inappropriate for two weeks vacation right now.

[Jordan Robertson]

I'm very sorry about this.

[Bradley Hall]

I can't go to China now because my boss says I have to go work on this specific project in France.

[Drake Bennett]

Bradley was hoping that blaming this work trip on the boss was something Xu would understand and sympathize with. But he knew that wasn't enough. On its own, he had taken something away. David's trip to China. So now he had to give something in return. Something to keep Xu in the game. I'm very sorry that I can't come back to China for the New Year and meet with you guys. I'll email you a directory of documents from a company computer. Per your previous instruction, please check. A directory is basically a list of all the files on your computer.

[Bradley Hall]

And if you don't know any engineers, you've never worked with an engineer, they name them very specifically and a lot of details contained within the. The titles of those files is because there's so many files and each is so specific to a piece of technology they're working on, et cetera, that you can glean a lot of information from

[Jordan Robertson]

your point of view. How big of a deal was a directory?

[Bradley Hall]

Oh, it's huge.

[Drake Bennett]

GE gave Bradley a directory but altered it to remove anything proprietary. David sent it to Shue and it worked.

[Bradley Hall]

I'm sure he is saying to his bosses, it's working, it's working. He sent me this file. He created this directory for me. Almost no one ever does that. Right? It's good. It's gold. It's gold. We've got to work it hard.

[Drake Bennett]

He starts peppering David with questions about his upcoming work trip.

[Jordan Robertson]

How long will you be in France in March?

[Drake Bennett]

Do you have plans to visit any other countries? I'm planning this year's foreign travel and

[Jordan Robertson]

would love to see you overseas if it's convenient.

[Drake Bennett]

The US isn't in my plan, so I'd like to see you in other countries.

[Jordan Robertson]

We would love for Xu to basically say, I'll come to Cincinnati, Ohio. Sounds like a great town, right? He's not going to do that. So we have to find something that's intermediate, that's risky, but not as big a risk. Right? David and Hsu start discussing European cities in France and elsewhere. But as Hsu gets closer to leaving China for the meeting, he seems to need more reassurance about his source. Wechats aren't enough anymore. He wants to hear David's voice. He calls him, but David's not with Bradley and Mike. He's home with his family. So David doesn't answer.

[Drake Bennett]

Hello, Station Chief Chu. Sorry I missed your call. I was trying to put my child to sleep. Just got free. Do you have a minute? Let's talk on the phone. How about another day? My family is sleeping.

[Jordan Robertson]

Xu presses him.

[Drake Bennett]

Or how about tomorrow? There's something I'd like to check in with you about. If we meet in France

[Jordan Robertson]

the next morning, David messages Shu that he can talk. At 11am he meets up with Bradley and Mike. They decide to do the call from Bradley's car in the FBI parking lot. But David pretends he's in his car in the GE parking lot on his lunch break. This is Special Agent Riegel, Special Agent Bradley Hall. The date is February 28th. This call is a tricky thing for the FBI agents to pull off. About to start consensual telephone call. They need to choreograph it in real time without tipping shoe off that they're there. So Bradley gives David specific instructions.

[Bradley Hall]

So I just said, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to give you a pad of paper. I need you to write down as fast as you can what he's saying. Wait over here. I'm going to point to what you say and we're going to go as quick as we can. If it's something important, you need to give me a signal so that I know. Because we need to keep this a natural flow. I said it needs to be natural.

[Jordan Robertson]

As you listen, you wouldn't know all of this is going on in the background. David sounds so normal. At no point does he let on that he's doing all this writing and signaling and adapting on the fly. It's really impressive.

[Drake Bennett]

I do want to visit Belgium, Netherlands and Germany. I would like to go check it out.

[Jordan Robertson]

David suggests a few countries in Europe where he and Xu could meet. Places he says he's always wanted to visit.

[Drake Bennett]

If it works well for you, I can tell my colleagues I'm visiting those places for fun. I assume they won't come along. I think those places may be more convenient. So you're saying it's better to meet in Belgium, Netherlands or Germany.

[Jordan Robertson]

Right, right, right.

[Drake Bennett]

That works too. Alright, let's try our best to meet in Europe. Good, good. If I need to communicate any details to you, I will send them to you through WeChat. Okay. Good night. Okay, Goodbye. Good night.

[Jordan Robertson]

Goodbye.

[Drake Bennett]

Good night. Session Chief Chu Shu has agreed to leave his home turf and meet David in Europe. Somewhere in Europe. He believes that David is just a willing source at GE ready to hand over whatever he needs. And so Xu is willing to do whatever he needs to to get the goods. In this moment. That means he's willing to travel. This is a big win for the FBI.

[Jordan Robertson]

That's a huge step. That's definitely kind of like, yeah, this is amazing. And I could just feel Sue's excitement.

[Drake Bennett]

Here's James Olson, former Chief of Counterintelligence at the CIA.

[Jordan Robertson]

This is going to be the recruitment that is going to set him aside from all of his peers.

[Drake Bennett]

This is big.

[Jordan Robertson]

This is a very big thing.

[Drake Bennett]

There's this kind of dynamic where the MSS senior management is following this very closely. The FBI senior management is following this very closely. Like when this meeting is taking shape. There would have been an enormous amount of excitement in both places.

[Jordan Robertson]

Absolutely.

[Drake Bennett]

About the potential of this.

[Jordan Robertson]

Absolutely. They both are very close to a major intelligence coup. You're going head to head with very smart people on both ends. And each side has to be smarter than the other.

[Drake Bennett]

I could just see the jubilation with

[Jordan Robertson]

the FBI that he's coming our way.

[Drake Bennett]

On the next episode.

[Jordan Robertson]

It's not just like a couple of dudes in suits. I mean, these are some legit looking like SEAL Team Six looking type dudes.

[Bradley Hall]

So I'm bringing him into a fatal funnel. Into a fatal funnel. Into a fatal funnel.

[Jordan Robertson]

This whole investigation seemed like it was out of a movie. Of course, you know there was going to be an escape plan. He's serving his country. I serve my country.

[Drake Bennett]

He's a spy.

[Jordan Robertson]

I was a spy.

[Drake Bennett]

He lived undercover.

[Jordan Robertson]

I lived undercover. He's doing what he's believing is right.

[Drake Bennett]

I did what I believe was right. How are we any different? Foreign. Home wherever you roam At Sonesta Es and simply suites stretch out and enjoy home like amenities for however long you need. And when you're a Sonesta Travel Pass member, staying at Sinesta? Es and simply Suites means earning points toward free nights, upgrades and more. Go to sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock their best rates with Sinesta Travel Pass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join [e-mail] Terms and conditions apply.

[Bradley Hall]

You know that feeling when a story just grabs you and won't let go? That's the kind of drama that's waiting for you on Disney Hulu. Mysterious post apocalyptic thrillers like the acclaimed Hulu original Paradise, action adventure dramas like Daredevil, Born Again, and iconic medical dramas like Grey's Anatomy. Or maybe you want your drama with a side of comic relief with shows like High Potential.

[Drake Bennett]

Find the drama you want on Disney

[Bradley Hall]

and Hulu with a bundle. Subscription terms apply.

[Drake Bennett]

Jenice Torres here and I'm Austin Hankwitz.

[Bradley Hall]

We host the podcast Mind the Small Business Success Stories produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Intuit QuickBooks.

[Drake Bennett]

We're back for season four to talk to some incredible small business owners.

[Bradley Hall]

The big thing about working at tech

[Jordan Robertson]

is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. Everyone's a rookie. That's how fast the industry is changing.

[Drake Bennett]

So what I'm really excited about is

[Bradley Hall]

to be part of that change. So listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.