Podcast Summary: Big Take – The Sixth Bureau, Episode 6: “Nothing Is Holy”
Release Date: March 20, 2026

Overview

The final episode of "The Sixth Bureau" podcast series, hosted by Jordan Robertson and Drake Bennett of Bloomberg, concludes their deep dive into Chinese industrial espionage by following the fallout from the dramatic arrest, prosecution, and eventual prisoner swap of Xu Yanjun—a Chinese Ministry of State Security (MSS) officer. The episode intricately explores the reverberating impact of Xu’s case on China’s spycraft, U.S.-China relations, personal stories of those caught in the web, and ultimately, what might lie ahead in the shadow war for technological dominance. The title “Nothing Is Holy” refers to the ways ordinary human frailties sabotage even the most guarded secret operations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Final Attempt to Contact Xu Yanjun

• [02:54–06:32]
  • Jordan, Drake, and their team attempt to call Xu and his associates from Bloomberg’s offices with the help of a Mandarin-speaking colleague.
  • A number linked to Xu is finally answered. The person on the line responds cautiously, refusing to confirm his identity and hangs up after learning the caller is a Bloomberg reporter.
  • The experience is unsettling, adding to the sense of intrigue and ambiguity surrounding Xu’s fate.

“He didn’t confirm. Neither deny or confirm who he is. Just asked, repeating the question, who are you?”
— Producer/Mandarin-speaking Colleague [06:21]

2. Ripple Effects of Xu’s Arrest

• [07:04–09:49]
  • The investigation led to a series of arrests and prosecutions of Chinese nationals affiliated with the MSS, like engineering grad student Ji Chaoqun in Chicago, a Chinese hacker picked up at LAX, and an Apple engineer caught for trade secrets theft.
  • The “China Initiative” (launched by the Justice Department) targeted academia but resulted in controversy and accusations of ethnic profiling, eventually leading to its demise under the Biden administration.

“It all looked to a lot of people like ethnic profiling, and the Biden administration would formally end the program.”
— Drake Bennett [10:31]

3. The “Three-Year Pause” in Chinese Espionage

• [11:04–14:07]
  • Xu’s arrest led the MSS to “pause” its operations for about three years, out of fear that all its U.S.-focused operations were compromised.
  • Alan Kohler (former FBI counterintelligence head) explains that this pause allowed U.S. agencies to regroup, as the Chinese government tried to figure out how the breach occurred.
  • This pause only ended after Xu’s trial revealed U.S. investigative techniques, prompting Chinese services to adapt and improve.

“They understood exactly what was happening, and they did what we do. Right. You get smart, you understand what the adversaries are doing, you adapt, and you get better.”
— Alan Kohler [14:07]

4. The Prisoner Swap

• [15:32–20:54]
  • The hosts reveal that Xu, Ji Chaoqun, and another Chinese prisoner were quietly pardoned and swapped for three Americans imprisoned in China.
  • Multiple U.S. officials and prosecutors reflect on the inevitability of such deals but have mixed feelings—some see it as strategic leverage; others worry it undermines the justice system.
  • Art Cummings, former GE security head, and James Olson, former CIA, express disappointment and anger, concerned it sets a problematic precedent.

“This trial, all that hard work, this brilliant operation that Bradley Hope pulled off had no lasting impact.”
— James Olson [19:54]

5. Personal Fallout: Ji Chaoqun’s Story

• [21:46–24:55]
  • Ji, who built a life in the U.S., maintained meaningful friendships, most notably with Naomi Lyman, who recounts her shock upon learning of Ji’s arrest and their ongoing connection after his return to China.
  • Naomi’s personal perspective highlights the human complexity behind tales of espionage.

“He would sit next to people on the train who just looked lonely, and he would just talk to them, just in a loving way. Just, how’s your day going?”
— Naomi Lyman [22:23]

6. Xu’s Likely Fate in China

• [25:12–26:13]
  • Xu’s future is much murkier. Matt McKenzie, U.S. prosecutor, speculates that while Xu was loyal, he brought embarrassment and operational failure to MSS and cannot be fully trusted again—“he’s kind of incompetent.”
  • The discussion illustrates the often grim fates of exposed spies, even when swapped home.

7. Espionage as Human Failure – “Nothing Is Holy”

• [26:29–28:59]
  • Alan Kohler reads a favorite John Le Carré passage, drawing a parallel between aging spies and the temptation to record secrets—a flaw that doomed Xu.
  • The series’ theme: no amount of tradecraft can outsmart ordinary human laziness or the pressure of aging.

“If people execute flawless tradecraft, they will never be caught. But because they're people, they will always be caught.”
— Alan Kohler [28:46]

8. The Shifting Tech Race & Mutual Suspicion

• [31:33–35:51]
  • The gap between U.S. and Chinese technology is narrowing fast, with examples like BYD’s electric cars overtaking expectations and sparking U.S. regulatory backlash (e.g., 100% tariffs).
  • China, now a tech powerhouse, has started worrying about its own secrets being stolen—urging caution among top AI researchers and cracking down on cross-border IP flows.
  • Juliana Liu, Bloomberg columnist, notes the role reversal and “mirror” dynamic emerging.

“Maybe for the first time in kind of modern history, the shoe’s on the other foot.”
— Juliana Liu [34:18]

9. Ideological Boundaries and the “Code” of Spying

• [35:51–39:26]
  • U.S. officials repeatedly claim that while the U.S. spies for national security, it does not engage in industrial espionage for commercial gain—unlike China, which they accuse of blurring those lines.
  • The hosts raise the question: if America lost its preeminence, would it abandon these principles?
  • James Olson concedes it’s "conceivable" the U.S. might change its approach if it slips from superpower status.

“I think it’s conceivable that if the United States lost its preeminent position in the world, that we would be more offensive in our intelligence efforts..."
— James Olson [39:26]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s easy to laugh at Xu’s carelessness and his mistakes, but we all do stupid stuff, don’t we? We all cut corners. Most of the time, we get away with it.”
  — Drake Bennett [26:17]

• “A man must have a code.”
  — Referencing "The Wire" [36:39]

• “We in the CIA do not do industrial espionage. We do not steal foreign technologies.”
  — James Olson [37:08]

• “Why wouldn’t the US start sending out spies to try to steal them, especially if it had a new motive to catch up?”
  — Jordan Robertson [38:13]

Timeline of Critical Segments

| Timestamp | Key Segment | Notes | |------------|----------------------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:54–05:17| Attempt to contact Xu | Calls to Xu’s number, unsettling exchange | | 07:04–09:49| Fallout from Xu’s Arrest | Series of arrests, the China Initiative | | 11:04–14:07| Three-year Pause in MSS Espionage | Kohler explains China’s operational “freeze” | | 15:32–20:54| Prisoner Swap & Reactions | Xu, Ji, and another swapped for Americans; mixed U.S. reactions | | 21:46–24:55| Ji Chaoqun’s Personal Fallout | Naomi Lyman’s perspective, ongoing contact post-release | | 26:29–28:59| “Nothing Is Holy” – Le Carré Passage | The human flaws at the heart of espionage | | 31:33–35:51| The Shifting Tech Race | Juliana Liu on China’s leap, the new IP paranoia, BYD and EVs | | 35:51–39:26| Espionage “Code” & American Exceptionalism | Boundaries of U.S. spycraft, would America’s “code” shift out of necessity? |

Tone & Language

The hosts maintain a narrative tone rich in suspense, curiosity, and investigative rigor. Personal stories and direct quotes from interviewees—law enforcement, friends, and espionage experts—bring warmth, skepticism, irony, and even lament to the often dry topic of national security. The episode’s reflective close, referencing literature and asking hard questions about the future, leaves listeners lingering on the complexity of morals and motives in statecraft.

Final Reflection

The climactic conclusion of “The Sixth Bureau” revisits the series’ central themes: the limits of secrecy, the universality of human error, and the twin-edged sword of technological ambition. With China ascendant and the U.S. facing uncomfortable questions of ethics, the podcast draws no easy lines—only the reminder that in the shadows, “nothing is holy.”