Podcast Summary:
Big Take – "Weekend Listen: Former UK Spy Chief Was Paid to Steal Secrets, Not Solve Mysteries"
Host: Michelle Hussain
Guest: Richard Moore (Former Chief of MI6)
Date: November 16, 2025

Main Theme

This episode features Richard Moore, reflecting on his storied career as the outgoing chief of MI6, Britain's Secret Intelligence Service. In his first broadcast interview since stepping down, Moore provides rare insight into the realities of espionage, the complexities of global threats, the evolving nature of spycraft, and the challenges faced by Western democracies in an era of escalating geopolitical contestation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. State of the World: Geopolitical Turbulence

• Moore reflects on a world that has become more "contested" and "dangerous" than at any point in his 38-year career, with fraying relationships between major powers and the loss of post-WWII diplomatic "tram lines."

  • Quote:
    “I don’t think in 38 years of being an intelligence officer and a diplomat I’ve seen it less well ordered. There’s just an extraordinary number of loose ends, if you like, on the international scene...”
    — Richard Moore [04:22]

• He cites Russia's war in Ukraine, tensions between Washington and Beijing, and a lack of global order as major concerns.

2. China: Opportunity and Threat

• Moore discusses the dual nature of China as both an opportunity and a threat to Western interests.

  • MI6’s job includes gathering intelligence not only to manage threats but also to help seize opportunities (07:10).
  • The intelligence world should be robust in denying Chinese espionage or cyber-attacks, which Moore characterizes as "pretty relentless" [08:42].
  • On responding to espionage:
    “If you are spying for a foreign power against the United Kingdom and you are caught, then you should expect to… receive the consequences.”
    — Richard Moore [09:31]

• Moore stresses the importance of strength and values in dealing with Beijing, arguing that China "respects strength."

3. Recruitment and Ethics of Espionage

• Moore details his own recruitment: an almost stereotypical "tap on the shoulder" at Oxford by a talent scout, a method MI6 no longer uses [12:04–12:49].

• The moral complexity of a life in intelligence is a recurring theme: secrecy, deception, and managing the psychological toll of being unable to be fully honest, even with one’s family.

  • “If you’re desperate for recognition for what you do, this is not the right profession to go into.”
    — Richard Moore [15:07]

• Moore describes the process and emotional weight of revealing his MI6 role to his teenage children and its impact on family dynamics [15:55–17:01].

4. Spycraft: Reality vs. Fiction

• Moore admits to not reading Fleming (Bond) but valuing Le Carré and contemporary writers like Mick Herron. He contrasts literary spycraft with the far less glamorous reality, while admitting that real intelligence work retains occasional intrigue [18:26].

• Human intelligence work centers on forming relationships of trust with agents, who “take risks in order to gather that intelligence and share it with you.”
  “You are about to enter into a relationship where there’s a huge amount at stake.”
  — Richard Moore [20:15]

• MI6’s motivations and methods are pragmatic rather than judgmental—sometimes financial compensation is involved, but motivations vary.

5. Navigating Moral Hazards

• Moore addresses the challenge of avoiding cynicism and maintaining ethical standards. MI6 looks for centered, “very low-ego” individuals to guard against the corrosive effects of suspicion and secrecy [20:59–22:06].

6. Accountability & Torture Allegations in the War on Terror

• When questioned on the UK and US intelligence agencies' roles during the post-9/11 period & torture allegations, Moore defends MI6’s compliance with the law, denies personal knowledge of US torture at the time, but accepts that mistakes were made and systems have since improved.
  • “If [an MI6 officer] had been complicit, they would be in jail. And not a single MI6 officer has been prosecuted for this. And I’m very proud of that… because they have that set of values that I described earlier.”
    — Richard Moore [26:17]

7. US-UK Intelligence Relationship in the Trump Era

• Moore affirms the depth of the US-UK intelligence partnership despite frequent political changes.

  • “We will share more with each other than we will do with anyone else because of the high levels of trust that built up over many, many years.”
    — Richard Moore [29:56]

• He acknowledges recent tensions and adjustments, such as the US temporarily suspending intelligence sharing with Ukraine, but maintains that the partnership remains central [31:40].

8. Russia and the War in Ukraine

• Moore is candid: “Putin has no intention of doing a deal. This is about dominating Ukraine and turning Ukraine into something that looks rather like its neighbor Belarus.” [32:06–32:57]

• The West, he argues, must remain patient and resolute:
  “We have to be patient. We have to be prepared to see this off… we do not lose this contest of will.”
  — Richard Moore [34:13]

• China closely observes Western resolve in Ukraine as a testing ground for its own ambitions, notably with Taiwan [36:00].

9. Weaponization of Technology in Intelligence

• Technological arms race: MI6 now relies on AI and advanced surveillance—both as an asset and as a challenge, given sophisticated adversarial capabilities [41:28].

  • “AI helps us enormously in interrogating vast amounts of data and perhaps helping us to find somebody who might be prepared to help us.”
    — Richard Moore [41:28]

• MI6 has sought partnerships with tech startups and set up a venture capital fund to ensure access to cutting-edge innovation, not just legacy defense contractors [42:57–43:56].

10. Post-Intelligence Life & Reflections

• Moore discusses the toll of the job, the necessity of both self-discipline and strong teams, and why he’s not interested in ambassadorial roles after MI6:
  “After five years of a really reasonably intensive, intense job I’m ready to do some other things including say a bit more of my grandson and do other stuff.”
  — Richard Moore [44:50]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the ambiguity of leaving MI6 better:
  “I left the job after five years, and I certainly haven’t left the world in a better place than I found it. And I’m lucky that wasn’t in my job description.”
  — Richard Moore [01:33]

• On public misperceptions of spying:
  “I was paid to steal secrets, not solve mysteries.”
  — Richard Moore [35:36]

• On personal integrity:
  “You have to be comfortable with [deception]. Also, if you’re desperate for recognition for what you do, this is not the right profession to go into.”
  — Richard Moore [15:07]

• On the US-UK partnership:
  “This partnership goes back in one form or another over a century.”
  — Richard Moore [30:20]

• On Russia-China alignment:
  “Putin has become increasingly dependent on Chinese support… the chemicals in those shells are mostly Chinese... it’s very clear that Putin has become more and more dependent.”
  — Richard Moore [36:41]

Memorable Anecdotes

• Moore shares the awkward (and humorous) moment of telling his teenage son the truth about his real profession, likening it to the most difficult “pitch” he ever made [16:17].
• He describes the shift from the secretive, informal recruitment style of the past to a more open, meritocratic process in MI6 [12:04–12:49].

Timestamps for Key Segments

• World at its most contested: [04:22]
• Understanding China: [06:01–08:45]
• Recruitment story: [12:04–13:42]
• Family and secrecy: [15:43–17:07]
• Spycraft and literature: [18:09–19:07]
• Motivations and ethics: [20:19–22:06]
• Torture/torture report debate: [23:24–26:17]
• US-UK intelligence ties: [29:56–31:40]
• War in Ukraine and Putin’s aim: [32:06–34:13]
• Technology arms race: [41:22–43:56]
• Life after MI6: [44:41–44:50]

Tone and Language

The interview is candid, reflective, sometimes wry, and maintains a balanced, understated British tone. Moore is careful with operational details, but forthright about personal insights and institutional values. Michelle Hussain’s questions are probing yet respectful, fostering an atmosphere of trust and openness that's rare in intelligence conversations.

This summary captures the depth and breadth of the conversation—providing a valuable window into both the personal and professional realities of modern espionage, as seen from the very top.