Big Take Podcast: "Weekend Listen: George Saunders Imagines an Oil Exec’s Deathbed"

Host: Akshat Rathi (Bloomberg)
Guest: George Saunders
Date: February 8, 2026
Episode Focus: Exploring the intersection of fiction, climate change, and empathy through George Saunders' latest novel, "Vigil"

Episode Overview

This episode delves into how fiction can address the climate crisis, drawing on the imagination and unique approach of award-winning author George Saunders. Through a discussion of his new novel "Vigil," Saunders and host Akshat Rathi explore how literature grapples with guilt, regret, empathy, and the complexities of climate change denial. The conversation also expands into the challenges facing the written word today, the role of AI in creativity, and practical writing advice.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Tackle Climate Change in Fiction?

[03:38–05:22]

• Saunders reflects on setting his new book, "Vigil," around an aging oil executive's deathbed experience, with the climate crisis subtly woven in.
• He sees fiction as a way to approach big, significant topics:
  “If you put significant things on the table, at least the book won't be trivial.” (Saunders – 04:22)
• The premise: What honest reflection might someone deeply complicit in climate denial have at the end of their life?

2. Research & Personal Connection

[05:22–08:00]

• Saunders describes his research process: deep reading followed by deliberate forgetting, to let the story breathe rather than become a “book report.”
• Personal background shapes the narrative:
  • Father worked in coal, Saunders is a trained engineer, worked in oil exploration in Sumatra.
  • This gave him an insider’s perspective:
    “It made me have a little taste as a young man of what it would be like to be part of that group... an embattled but noble crew of technocrats...” (Saunders – 06:55)

3. The Art of Character Creation

[08:00–10:10]

• Saunders does not directly interview people like oil executives for authenticity. Instead, he trusts his “internal person generator”:
  “The working assumption is that we contain everybody... I can imagine being anyone.” (Saunders – 08:16)
• Fiction is a playful, shared experiment between reader and writer.

4. Climate Change as a Literary Challenge

[10:41–13:31]

• Literary fiction faces structural challenges representing the slow, diffuse nature of climate change.
• Saunders argues the novel’s purpose is to raise questions and immerse the reader, not to preach or deliver a straightforward message:
  “The book that might need to be written about climate change might not have climate change in it at all. It might be about denial, mindset, corporate hegemony...” (Saunders – 12:31)
• Climate is a backdrop—only three mentions of the word “climate” appear in "Vigil."

5. Guilt, Regret, and Empathy

[15:18–21:03]

• Discussion of guilt and regret in the context of the novel and real life.
• Saunders resists a didactic approach:
  “I think of myself more as a roller coaster designer. I don’t have to know your profession to make you gasp at the bottom of a steep hill.” (Saunders – 16:06)
• Empathy’s limits:
  “There’s not a limit to the interest we can feel in another human being, even the most terrible... But sometimes in the West we confuse that activity with permission giving.” (Saunders – 18:30)

6. The Problem of Platforming & Understanding the “Other Side”

[21:03–23:03]

• On interviewing or writing about controversial figures:
  “Understanding another person’s point of view is always a superpower, even if your intent is to resist them.” (Saunders – 21:52)
• Warns against both-sides false equivalence in journalism:
  “This side says hippos can fly, this side says they can’t, okay, we’ll meet in the middle. They fly sometimes.” (Saunders – 22:17)

7. The Value of Uncertainty

[24:02–26:16]

• Writers tend to say “I don’t know” more often, embracing uncertainty as a strength.
• The current culture prizes strong opinions, but Saunders finds value in withholding judgment:
  “An opinion costs you... it nails you down at a certain point in a world that is always changing and always uncertain.” (Saunders – 24:46)

8. Is the Written Word Losing Ground?

[28:55–30:20]

• Saunders contends deep readers are influential:
  “If you have a handful of dedicated readers who really know how to read, that’s a kind of super dense pot of potential influence.” (Saunders – 29:31)
• The abundance of shallow digital content doesn’t have the same effect.

9. AI and Human Creativity

[30:20–33:39]

• Saunders believes AI-generated writing lacks the “qualia” of human experience: “AI can imitate that all it likes, but it isn’t the same, it can’t be the same.” (Saunders – 31:35)
• Concern that AI could erode standards and diminish human involvement, especially if over-relied on:
  “That’s your job... to come up with that menu.” (Saunders – 32:28)
• Skeptical but open to some practical uses (e.g., brain surgery).

10. Critical Thinking, Empathy, and the Decline of Reading

[33:39–37:08]

• Studies show decreased reading reduces critical thinking and empathy.
• Saunders has personally experienced the transformative power of deep, attentive reading:
  “From an intense period of reading... my mind shifted, my vocabulary improved, my ability to express myself improved and therefore the world changed.” (Saunders – 35:26)
• Advocates for claiming time and space for in-depth, patient reading.

11. Writing Exercise and the Generative Power of Constraints

[38:06–41:02]

• Saunders shares a writing exercise: 200-word story, with only 50 unique words, in 15 minutes.
• Constraints force creativity and bypass usual anxieties:
  “A lot of the normal anxieties associated with writing go away under the pressure of the rules.” (Saunders – 38:57)
• Host shares positive experience doing a Saunders-inspired exercise with his wife.

12. Advice for Nonfiction Climate Writers

[41:19–45:27]

• “Ground it in the cost to actual people”—moving beyond abstract ideas to concrete impacts.
• The challenge: often “preaching to the choir”—how to reach beyond one’s own audience or bias?
• Host reflects that conducting fair, honest, challenging interviews with those outside the climate mainstream can sometimes earn respect and foster better understanding, even when disagreements remain.

13. Realities of Climate Denial within the Oil Industry

[44:07–45:27]

• Oil executives in public companies no longer deny climate change, due to shareholder reality:
  “If you’re going to make money, you need to know reality. That needs to go on a bumper sticker.” (Host and Saunders exchange, 44:36–44:42)
• There remains denial in some private sectors, but transparency and accountability have shifted public discourse.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It gave me a sense that I could write this character... the oil business...made me have a little taste as a young man of what it would be like to be part of that group, to have adventure.” (Saunders – 06:43)

• “The book that might need to be written about climate change might not have climate change in it at all...it might be about denial, mindset, corporate hegemony...” (Saunders – 12:31)

• “If you write a novel or a story and it ends up being about what you thought it was going to be about, you probably failed because the reader feels that condescension.” (Saunders – 12:12)

• “Empathy’s tricky... the words empathy, compassion, sympathy, those are sometimes confusing. I think there’s not a limit to the interest we can feel in another human being...The tricky part is that sometimes...we confuse that activity with permission giving.” (Saunders – 18:21)

• “Understanding another person’s point of view is always a superpower, even if your intent is to resist them.” (Saunders – 21:52)

• “For me... it was so much easier just to say I have no idea than to falsify an answer that later I would regret.” (Saunders – 24:30)

• “If you have a handful of dedicated readers who really know how to read, that's a kind of a super dense pot of potential influence. People who really read deeply... it affects their actions.” (Saunders – 29:31)

• “AI can imitate that all it likes, but it isn’t the same, it can’t be the same.” (Saunders – 31:35)

• “From an intense period of reading... my mind shifted, my vocabulary improved, my ability to express myself improved and therefore the world changed.” (Saunders – 35:26)

• On climate and reality in business:
  Host: “If you’re going to make money, you need to know reality.”
  Saunders: “That needs to go on a bumper sticker. Amen.” (44:36–44:42)

Key Timestamps

• [03:38] – Saunders on why he wrote "Vigil"
• [05:35] – Saunders' research approach
• [06:43] – Impact of personal background
• [08:10] – On character creation (internal person generator)
• [10:41] – Literary challenges of climate fiction
• [15:18] – Guilt, regret, and what fiction can do
• [18:21] – On empathy and its limits
• [21:52] – Value of understanding the “other side”
• [24:46] – The power of withholding opinion
• [29:31] – Value of committed readers vs. viral content
• [31:35] – Human creativity vs. AI
• [35:26] – Transformative power of reading deeply
• [38:06] – The 200-word/50-unique-word writing exercise
• [44:36] – Climate reality and shareholder pressure

Tone and Style

The conversation is reflective, witty, and philosophical, marked by Saunders' humility, self-deprecating sense of humor, and deep commitment to exploring complexity over certainties. The host brings insightful, probing questions and shares personal experiences that illuminate the subject further.

To summarize:
This episode is a rich dive into the complexities of representing climate change through fiction, literary empathy, the pitfalls and promises of AI in creative work, and the enduring value of reading and writing deeply. Whether you're a writer, reader, or climate observer, Saunders' candor and nuanced thinking make this discussion both practical and inspirational.