Loading summary
Transcript112 lines
- [00:00]
Narrator/Advertiser
Your next product launch is coming fast.
- [00:02]
Mark Carney
Don't let billing slow you down. Legacy systems can't handle usage based billing. That means your team is stuck gluing code together, piecing through spreadsheets and running ad hoc queries just to figure out what to bill. With Metronome, you can roll out new pricing in minutes instead of months, whether it's usage based, seat based or a hybrid model. Visit metronome.com to see how companies like OpenAI and Anthropic launch billing as fast as they launch products.
- [00:28]
Advertisement Voice
That's metronome.com Every business starts with an idea. How can you go from daydreamer to industry leader? Amazon Business accelerates your journey with smart business buying. Get everything you need to grow in one familiar place. From office supplies to IT essentials and maintenance tools. Amazon Business takes the buying experience you know and love from Amazon plus tools that help you save costs and make insights based decisions ready to bring your visions to life.
- [00:56]
Narrator/Advertiser
Learn how@AmazonBusiness.com@GSK, our focus is on doing the right thing for patients. We believe they should be free to focus on doing what they love, especially when they're living with a disease like cancer. That's why we focus where we can make the biggest difference matching the right treatment with the right patient. At GSK we're pioneering advanced technologies like antibody drug conjugates that precisely target and attack cancer cells. By uniting science, technology and talent, we work tirelessly to stay ahead of cancer together. Visit gsk.com to discover more.
- [01:36]
Advertisement Voice
Bloomberg Audio.
- [01:38]
Michelle Hussain
Studios Podcasts Radio News we are in a crisis.
- [01:44]
Mark Carney
We're in an economic crisis. This fundamental shift in the world, it's not a transition, it's a rupture. It's big changes in a very short period of time. And I know from all my experience that in those sit you have to act big. You have to act bold.
- [02:00]
Michelle Hussain
Mark Carney, former central banker, climate champion, and now Canada's Prime Minister we can.
- [02:08]
Mark Carney
Give ourselves far more than the United States can take away. So we have agency. We can have one Canadian economy. We've taken major moves towards that.
- [02:16]
Michelle Hussain
One Canadian economy takes time.
- [02:18]
Mark Carney
It takes time. It takes time. But it's worth it because we never want to be in this position again.
- [02:24]
Michelle Hussain
From Bloomberg Weekend, this is the Michelle Visen Show. I'm Michelle Hussain. Hello and welcome. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being part of this new adventure. This is going to be a place where every weekend you'll hear one essential conversation. But I hope that it's also going to be a place with head, heart and soul where in the midst of a disrupted, even a chaotic world, you'll find something to take away that's of value. That's what I'm aiming to do week after week, and I'm thrilled that you're part of it. I hope that you'll keep coming back as we explore ideas and current affairs and history with people who are shaping the world or who can help us understand it. And my first guest is Mark Carney, someone who's leading a country in the crosshairs of trade and other turbulence. Canada's super interesting because it's at the forefront of so many of the different currents in the world. Right now it's in President Trump's sights. It's a country that he still believes should be the 51st state. It's highly connected economically to its big southern neighbor. The two of them share the world's longest border. But tariffs and threats since the start of the year mean that it's in the midst of trying to make itself more self sufficient. That's the reality that Mark Carney stepped into seven months ago when he became prime minister. He was entirely new to politics, though in many ways he has been an insider. And we'll get to some of that in this conversation. We spoke over a weekend in London because he was here ahead of Canada's women playing England in the Rugby World cup final. Unfortunately for Canada, they lost. As it happens, when he came to our studios, he was on the doorstep of the place he used to run, the bank of England. And he's not unfamiliar with Bloomberg either because he used to be on the board here. We talked about the big issues, of course, Donald Trump, and about big foreign policy moves. But this is a personal conversation, too, and I asked him first to take me right back to his early years, the story of his parents and the place where he was born, Fort Smith in Canada's Northwest Territories.
- [04:45]
Mark Carney
They went up to the north, technically all the way to the Arctic, but close enough. They went up to the north as an adventure, pioneering. They were young teachers and going to the what seemed as the frontier. Of course, there were people there already. So there was that element, strong sense in my family of public service. My dad was a civil servant, as I say, my parents are educators. A sense of that is the higher calling. So I've always had that element. Even though I've had a private sector career, I was fortunate to be the central bank governor in two G7 countries. And at a time when because there were major financial problems, including here in the City of London, that that job was broader than usual. Major financial reforms going on, having to be negotiated around the world. So in that regard, I've been thinking about what next in public service. Yes. Candidly, the prospect of becoming an elected politician in Canada, let alone Prime Minister, I felt like was receding. And then over the course of the year and the run up to when I stood for election, I became more and more concerned, as some others did, about the potential direction of our country and felt that given my background, I would have a chance to help change it.
- [06:01]
Michelle Hussain
What do you miss about your old life? I imagine your family probably miss your old life.
- [06:06]
Mark Carney
Yes, I'm sure they do. I miss. What do I miss about. I miss having any privacy, basically.
- [06:13]
Michelle Hussain
I was thinking about something you said in 2020 about how it is easier to be a central banker in a democracy than a politician. But it feels like that's not even the half of it. Right. You have become prime minister at a time when global trade is disrupted as never before, global alliances are under pressure as never before. How has it been?
- [06:36]
Mark Carney
I stand by my earlier statement that it is easier to be a central banker. Part of the reason I am in this position is because of what you just described. It's part of the reason why I put myself forward. It's possibly one of the reasons why I was elected in some respects. I'm going to say an odd thing. In some respects, it's easier when the problems are very clearly out in front of everybody. I think all Canadians understand that our relationship with the United States has changed fundamentally, that the world is a more dangerous and divided place. And then the question becomes, what do we do about it? And sometimes, just on reflection, if you look back when times were good, quote, unquote, but problems we're building up, that's when it's more difficult to take the big decisions that are necessary.
- [07:25]
Michelle Hussain
Whereas here, you know, the school here.
- [07:27]
Mark Carney
You know that we have to act. It's important to be as open and as possible with people in terms of the assessment of the scale of what needs to be done and then. And then to be decisive.
- [07:38]
Michelle Hussain
Did you get elected because of President Trump? Really?
- [07:40]
Mark Carney
I got a. Like. Well, you'd have to ask the voters of Canada, I think.
- [07:45]
Michelle Hussain
Well, you stood because of President Trump. You made the choice just before you announced it, just before the inauguration.
- [07:50]
Mark Carney
Well, I did not stood. I did not stand because of President Trump. No, I stood because I believe that the person who was likely to become prime minister, certainly in all the polling was not the right person for Canada. That would have been a divisive government in that case and would have taken our country back as opposed to Ford. It turned out to be the case that very quickly, once I was in the leadership campaign, before I became leader of the Liberal Party, and then before the general election campaign, it turned out that President Trump's actions in the trade war, as it's known, really intensified. And then I became more relevant. So certainly, yes, it helped that people made a judgment that I was best placed to deal with it.
- [08:31]
Michelle Hussain
So you went into it with your eyes open. But what has surprised you in these six to seven months?
- [08:37]
Mark Carney
What has surprised me the most? I guess a couple of things. One is how relentless it is. So I took a decision in early January to stand for the leadership. And from that point on, it has been nonstop, as close to 24,7 as possible. I conceptually knew that I'd had high pressure jobs before, but it's that much more so. So that's the first thing I think that the importance of and the fluidity of international relations, I knew international relations are important, but the fluidity of those relations and the importance of those relationships, those personal relationships with world leaders, some of which I had in advance, but others I've had to develop, that has surprised me, the degree to which that is important.
- [09:24]
Michelle Hussain
I do want to explore how much harder your task is as prime minister in some of your domestic priorities and certainly your foreign policy priorities, because the United States is not the partner that it has been before and because its priorities have shifted. Of course, you've got specific bilateral issues with the United States, primarily over trade. And the Canadian economy has been hit hard by what president has done, particularly on steel and the auto sector and aluminium. What is your strategy for when the U.S. mexico, Canada trade deal is reviewed next summer? Are you hoping the U.S. economy by that stage is in a position where President Trump takes a different view on tariffs?
- [10:09]
Mark Carney
That we want the best for the US Economy, just as we want, well, slightly stronger. We want the best for the Canadian economy. So, no, our strategy is not to expect some weakness in the US Economy. That is going to change US Negotiating position. Part of our strategy has been to pursue the best deal for Canada. We have the best trade deal at the moment. 85% of our trade with the United States is tariff free. We have the lowest average tariff against of any country with the US it's five and a half percent. So we're in a good position now with two important caveats. One is your question, what's going to happen with the renegotiation of what they call usmca. And secondly, some key sectors, steel, autos, aluminium, forest products being the main ones. We'll make it increasingly clear that in certain sectors, particularly the integration of the Canadian and U.S. and Mexican economies is essential to U.S. competitiveness. So in steel, in autos, as two examples, that the linkages are so tight. They're so tight such that the U.S. content in Canadian finished automobiles is higher than the average US Content in American automobiles. So we make America stronger in these sectors, and our strategy is to make sure that that is as well understood as possible.
- [11:28]
Michelle Hussain
Okay, so the prosperity of both countries is at stake. Your language, though, has changed on President Trump since you came to office. Do you remember when you talked about him as a bully that needed to be stood up to in February when you were campaigning? We're going to stand up to a bully. We're not going to back down. And yet now you're much more likely to talk in more conciliatory terms. I mean, obviously one is campaigning and one is governing. But perhaps people who wanted you to do the standing up to the bully might feel that you haven't done that as much as you suggested when you were campaigning.
- [12:03]
Mark Carney
Well, let's be clear, the actual situation. We're one of two countries, effectively, that put retaliatory tariffs on the United States. Two countries in the world. We put them on, we kept them on. We kept them on up to a point where they cease to be effective. We got to a point when we took our retaliatory tariffs off, we had 85% of our trade tariff free. When we put them on, given the steps that President Trump had taken, it was less than. It was. A third of our trade was tariff free. So, you know, strikes me that that's, that's pretty effective.
- [12:40]
Michelle Hussain
Number one, he's shown his power, hasn't he, over you? Like for example, your digital services tax. You announced it. He hated it. You had to back down on that.
- [12:47]
Mark Carney
The digital service tax was announced multiple years before it was coming into effect. Look, the United States.
- [12:53]
Michelle Hussain
And it couldn't because President Trump wasn't having it.
- [12:56]
Mark Carney
We made a decision in the context. And what happened after we took that digital service tax off? Within weeks, the president confirmed in writing, formally confirmed in an executive order, that tariff free status for the vast majority of the.
- [13:11]
Michelle Hussain
So there was something broader at stake. I get that. But I just wonder how, how you reconcile yourself to that because it is different from the tone you struck.
- [13:20]
Mark Carney
I'm very well. I recon My. My responsibility is to get the best possible deal for Canada. We have the best deal in the world at this point. Now, that next issue is where is the USMCA negotiation going to land?
- [13:38]
Michelle Hussain
The trade agreement.
- [13:38]
Mark Carney
Yeah, the trade agreement. Broader trade agreement going to land. And that's being prepared for that and working with the US on that. But let's be absolutely clear. The United States does have tremendous leverage in the near term over Canada, over the European Union, over the United Kingdom, because our economies became linked on the basis of certain assumptions. Those assumptions have now changed. And so part of this is stabilizing that relationship. It's the US Right to have different priorities. We respect that they've made that choice. We look to stabilize the trading relationship. Okay, what are the new terms under the new objectives of the United States that are in the best interest of Canada? And then the big thing that we do, and a big part of, I think why I was elected was what else are we going to do? And one of the core points that we've made from the start is that we can give ourselves far more than the United States can take away. So we have agency. We can have one Canadian economy. We've taken major moves towards that.
- [14:42]
Michelle Hussain
One Canadian economy takes time.
- [14:44]
Mark Carney
It takes time. It takes time, but it's worth it because we never want to be in this position again. We never want to be in this position again. And so that's building at home, and it's diversifying it broad. We're having this interview in London. Part of the reason I'm in London is deepening our trade relations.
- [14:59]
Michelle Hussain
You need new markets because 75% of your trade is with the United States. And that now has problems, I want.
- [15:06]
Mark Carney
To say, and that will change.
- [15:07]
Michelle Hussain
Okay. Have you learned anything from President Trump?
- [15:10]
Mark Carney
Have I learned. I've learned lots of things from President Trump. You always learn things from people. I've learned that the value. I don't fully subscribe to this, but I see the effectiveness, the value of the term they would use is flooding the zone of doing multiple things at the same time. And the effectiveness that can have. I think that he has a very effective way, in his own almost unique manner of framing issues and of dominating the agenda. If I can put that away as well.
- [15:41]
Michelle Hussain
I even wondered about the way that you, you know, when you cancel the carbon tax, you signed it on camera with a flourish. It was like executive order style. Have you learned an element of performance? Like, you have to be seen to be doing the job in a certain way because it didn't feel very Canadian to do that, the signing on camera with the flourish.
- [15:59]
Mark Carney
It's interesting. I wouldn't have ascribed it to him per se. I just think that in a time when there is a lot of pressure, people are under a lot of pressure, there's a lot of uncertainty, the value of being very clear. So I'll take the example you used. That was the first day that I became Prime Minister. The first thing we did was to cancel that carbon tax. The next thing I did was to come to Europe, come to the UK and to the Canadian Arctic, the three founding peoples of Canada, the French, the British and the indigenous Canadians, and to underscore our sovereignty, our history, but also to set up trade agreements with the first two and a major intention to invest in our Arctic and defense and security. And so both of those things had substance. We canceled the carbon tax. Those trips had substance because they were setting up trade agreements and security. But they also had symbolism history, sovereignty, action. And when you're in a crisis, particularly in this case a trade crisis, an economic crisis, a crisis of sovereignty, given some of the points that President Trump's saying about the 51st state, when you're in a crisis, you need to not just act decisively, but be seen to act decisively. And that's what we were doing.
- [17:24]
Michelle Hussain
Foreign.
- [17:28]
Public Investing Advertiser
You'Re thoughtful about where your money goes. You've got your core holdings, some recurring crypto buys, maybe even a few strategic options plays on the side. The point is you're engaged with your investments and public gets that. That's why they built an investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can put together a multi asset portfolio portfolio for the long haul. Stocks, bonds, options, crypto. It's all there, plus an industry leading 3.8% APY high yield cash account. Switch to the platform built for those who take investing seriously. Go to public.com and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com paid for by Public Investing. All investing involves the risk of loss, including loss of principal. Brokerage services for U.S. listed registered securities options and bonds in a self directed account are offered by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Crypto trading provided by Bakkt Crypto Solutions LLC.
- [18:26]
Advertisement Voice
Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures every business starts with an idea. How can you go from daydreamer to industry leader? Amazon Business accelerates your journey with smart business buying. Get everything you need to grow in one familiar place. From office supplies to IT essentials and maintenance tools. Amazon business takes the buying experience you know and love from Amazon plus tools that help you save costs and make insights based decisions ready to bring your visions to life.
- [18:53]
Narrator/Advertiser
Learn how@AmazonBusiness.com@GSK, our focus is on doing the right thing for patients. We believe they should be free to focus on doing what they love, especially when they're living with a disease like cancer. That's why we focus where we can make the biggest difference, matching the right treatment with the right patient. At gsk, we're pioneering advanced technologies like antibody drug conjugates that precisely target and attack cancer cells. By uniting science, technology and talent, we work tirelessly to stay ahead of cancer together. Visit gsk.com to discover more.
- [19:41]
Michelle Hussain
You have a big Ukrainian Canadian community. So Ukraine is important to the country as a whole as well as I'm sure to you personally. President Trump is now talking about Ukraine winning, but when he does so, he emphasizes that Ukraine, he thinks is going to do that with Europe's help. To what extent can Ukraine win without the US being fully front and center and offering the security backstops for the future?
- [20:05]
Mark Carney
Okay, so there's a lot in that question and I think it's important to distinguish the components Ukraine with Europe's help, with Canada's help. And Canada is the largest per capita contributor to Ukraine in in dollar terms. We're contributing militarily and on a humanitarian basis as well. And we've been there from the start. And the start was 2014. The start was not three years ago. The start was 2014 with the illegal invasion, annexation of Crimea. Attempted annexation. I guess the US Is essential for a few things with respect to Ukraine. It is essential for certain military equipment. The provision of that military equipment we are happy to or we understand the need to buy that equipment on behalf of Ukraine or to help Ukraine finance that equipment in many cases so it doesn't have to be directly supplied by the United States. Obviously it would be easier if the US Were doing more direct provision, but that's not an insuperable issue. What is essential is this other part of your question is when there is an end of hostility, some form of ceasefire, peace frozen conflict, however it ends up being, the first line of defense will be the Ukrainian army reinforced the coalition of the willing of which Canada is a member, UK others France will provide important security guarantees. But the ultimate backstop does need to have some form of backstop in our judgment and judgment of many others of the United States.
- [21:36]
Michelle Hussain
So the United States, which there's been no commitment, there has been which is why I asked you, how far can Ukraine get?
- [21:42]
Mark Carney
There has been. Well, there's winning, there's winning. We can debate how that's defined. But winning militarily on the battlefield, getting to a position where there is a peace accord, a ceasefire, a frozen conflict, some understanding they can get to that position with the support of Europe, the support of Canada, the support of Australia, the support of a few others, and with the US More in a secondary role, having a durable peace, a durable end of hostility will require us. It will require the form that that could take is under active discussion at the military level, at the national security level. We are part of those discussions. It is right that nothing has been concretely agreed and spelled out, but I would say the level of engagement is encouraging.
- [22:34]
Michelle Hussain
With the U.S. with the U.S. so you're hoping you get there. The problem is that right now it does seem that Russia has emboldened drones in NATO airspace. Jets in NATO airspace, as happened over Estonia.
- [22:47]
Mark Carney
I would rephrase. Russia's under pressure. Russia's under pressure. They're trying to what they can to shift, but they're under economic pressure, their military situation. They were making some progress over the course of the summer. That progress has stopped. Some of it's begun to be in reverse.
- [23:05]
Michelle Hussain
But it's unnerving for a country like Estonia to have Russian jets in its airspace.
- [23:10]
Mark Carney
Canada has frontline troops in Latvia.
- [23:13]
Michelle Hussain
But here's a very concrete thing. If that happens again, do you support the idea of a NATO country shooting down that Russian jet?
- [23:21]
Mark Carney
All options are on the table. Without question. There are ongoing consultations within NATO. NATO countries defend themselves, and certainly we will do what's necessary in order to protect those countries.
- [23:35]
Michelle Hussain
Are you warning Russia that it is possible that a NATO country would shoot down one of their planes?
- [23:41]
Mark Carney
If I may. So that, for example, the Polish government has made those warnings directly in public.
- [23:46]
Michelle Hussain
There is a precedent because Turkey did it to a Russia plane 10 years ago.
- [23:50]
Mark Carney
Yeah.
- [23:50]
Michelle Hussain
Is that the kind of message that you think it might take at a moment like this to. To show Russia that NATO is serious? Because President Trump isn't really showing Russia that America is serious about Ukraine.
- [24:02]
Mark Carney
I think President Trump has been very important in this process. He has given peace a chance, so to speak with Russia. He has been, you know, lines of communication with Vladimir Putin, with his special envoy, Steve Witkoff. There's been direct conversations. There's been opportunities for Putin to take off ramps. Putin has not taken any of those off ramps. The president speaks for himself, but I think his patience is being exhausted, his line is hardening. The likelihood of further economic sanctions against Russia is increasing. And the severity of those next phase of sanctions could be a different order of magnitude than previous rounds of sanctions. All of that is pointing in one direction. And I would underscore, Russia has been moving at literally a snail's pace in terms of temporary acquisition of territory in Ukraine over the course of the last three years. And they're not going to win. They're not going to win this war. And it's a question of they're realizing that. And I personally think that the actions of Vladimir Putin over the course of the last few months, spurning the opportunity that President Trump has given him on multiple occasions, these drone incursions, if they are intentional, as they increasingly look to.
- [25:21]
Michelle Hussain
Be making the calculation that America doesn't, there are no consequences for spurning.
- [25:26]
Mark Carney
President Putin has done nothing but miscalculate in this war. He made the calculation that NATO would become divided. NATO is solidified. You just have to look to the June commitments. You have to look how we're acting. He made the calculation that Ukraine would capitulate in a matter of days. He made the calculation that President Zelensky would flee. He made the calculation there would be an uprising in favor. He is miscalculated consistently in this conflict.
- [25:52]
Michelle Hussain
Another one of your foreign policy priorities has been the recognition of a Palestinian state on which the the US Fundamentally disagrees. What is your next step on that issue?
- [26:03]
Mark Carney
So I would say the foreign policy priority was the recognition, not the end. The end is a free and viable Palestinian state living side by side, peace and security with the State of Israel. That's the end goal. What we saw, just to be clear about why we did what we did, was that the actions of the current government, the Netanyahu government, were explicitly designed to end any possibility of the state of Palestine in violation of the UN Charter and going against Canadian government policy of whatever political stripe since 1947. We did this because the prospect was receding, as opposed to viewing it as any sort of panacea, game changer, fundamentally immediately leading to the outcome that we and others want most others want. Yes, the US Disagrees with the decision that we took, that Spain took, that France took, the United Kingdom took, 150 other countries in the UN have taken, but they our common objective is the same.
- [27:06]
Michelle Hussain
So the end for the end goal, the actual establishment of a Palestinian state living side by side with a secure Israel. To get that, you're going to have to keep up the pressure on the Israeli government. Justin Trudeau said that Canada would honor the International Criminal Court arrest warrant, I. E. Benjamin Netanyahu would be arrested if he came to Canada. Does that stand under your leadership?
- [27:29]
Mark Carney
Yes.
- [27:29]
Michelle Hussain
You'd be prepared to do that?
- [27:31]
Mark Carney
Yes.
- [27:33]
Michelle Hussain
Are we also in a climate crisis?
- [27:34]
Mark Carney
We are in a climate crisis, yeah.
- [27:36]
Michelle Hussain
The last time we spoke was at the Glasbow Climate Conference. Grab your headphones because I want to play you something that you said around that time when you were the UN Special Envoy for Climate Action and Finance. Here's what you said.
- [27:48]
Mark Carney
Human frailties create a tragedy of the horizon. That means the catastrophic impacts of climate change will fall largely on future generations. The current generation, with our horizons fixated on the current news, business and political cycles, has few direct incentives to solve the issue, even though the sooner we act, the less costly it will be.
- [28:11]
Michelle Hussain
You are really well known for these words, this phrase, the tragedy of the horizon. It's all about how you need to think long term rather than in terms of a short term horizon. And yet in office you scrapped the consumer carbon tax. You paused the mandate that was pushing car makers to sell more and more electric vehicles, and there are now reports that you are about to drop the cap on emissions from the oil and gas sector. What happened to you?
- [28:39]
Mark Carney
I'm the same, me, I'm focused on the same issues. And the question is, how do you make progress towards those issues? And particularly how do you make progress in a way that is most effective? How do you make progress most effectively? So I'll break those issues down. The consumer carbon tax was at best going to be responsible for high single digit proportion of emissions reductions over the course of the next 25 years. So it was not, it was something, but it was far from the most important measure that was in place. It was extremely politically divisive and it would have contributed to a government in place that would have canceled all climate policies in effect. First point, that's the design of that aspect of the carbon tax relative to.
- [29:33]
Michelle Hussain
Yeah, it wasn't perfect.
- [29:35]
Mark Carney
It wasn't perfect, but it had. So the question is, and the question is, how do you use scarce government capital, government dollars, taxpayers dollars and political capital in order to have the maximum effect? And so the maximum effect. So let me, let me go more directly to what we are doing. So one of the biggest 20% of the emissions in Canada thereabouts comes from the building sector, from houses and commercial buildings. We've done very little in terms of reducing those emissions. We are now embarking on one of the biggest homebuilding measures in our history, which is more than 20% lower embedded carbon in the production of these homes. More than 20% lower carbon footprint in the running of these homes. So that in itself is. It's a housing strategy, it's an economic strategy, but it's a climate strategy at the same time.
- [30:26]
Michelle Hussain
And yet, reading your book, which is all about values rather than market value, and reading the way that you emphasize that, that these are urgent issues, that everything you do ought to take you further towards the common good, which is keeping global temperatures as close to 1 1/2 degrees as you can. You're the only G7 leader who has been a UN envoy on climate action.
- [30:52]
Mark Carney
Yes, that's true.
- [30:52]
Michelle Hussain
And the world is crying out for leadership on this right. President Trump is calling climate change a hoax. Are you in danger of squandering your reputation as a global climate champion because some of your actions are. Are against that ultimate goal?
- [31:07]
Mark Carney
A few things in what you said. First, it's not about my. My role as Prime Minister is not about my reputation. My role as prime minister is about what's in the best interest of Canada. Canadians care about the world. They care about climate action. They care about their fellow citizens. They care about all of those things. Those values of sustainability and solidarity, fairness are fundamental to Canadians. What we need to do is to be as effective as possible in terms of addressing climate change while growing our economy.
- [31:39]
Michelle Hussain
So what are you going to do about emissions from the oil and gas sector? There is a cap that's supposed to come in. Is it true that you're considering dropping it?
- [31:49]
Mark Carney
What we're focused on, you can say there's a cap, but saying a cap doesn't make it happen. What makes the emissions go down in the oil and gas sector? As long as Canada and America are using oil and gas, and we are, our economies are wired for that, as is the rest of the world. What makes those emissions go down will be carbon capture and storage, particularly in other efficiencies.
- [32:17]
Michelle Hussain
So you are dropping it, then?
- [32:18]
Mark Carney
That's what it sounds like. We're dropping emissions from the oil and gas. Dropping the cap, Dropping emissions, Michelle, from the oil and gas sector. This is the point. This is about results. The climate cares about results, doesn't care about a policy. That is an outcome, is not a policy. A desired outcome is not a policy.
- [32:38]
Michelle Hussain
So I'm getting the strong signals that that particular policy, to have a cap on emissions from the oil and gas sector is not going to happen.
- [32:44]
Mark Carney
Outcome is not a policy. What is. What makes a difference to the climate is whether or not Emissions come down. What's required for the Canadian oil sands. In this case, what we're talking about is carbon and capture and storage. We signaled our first major nation building project is something called the pathways which will get those emissions down. Second thing related to this, and this is crucial from a climate perspective, is so called fugitive methane flaring, which is depending on your horizon and the horizon that we're all in in the next few decades in terms of climate warming is up to 70 times a bigger, 70 times bigger contributor to climate change than CO2 emissions. And so we have an opportunity, we're working with the industry, working with the provinces to get those emissions, methane emissions, down to zero.
- [33:34]
Michelle Hussain
You are explaining the complexity of what you're dealing with. And I guess I just wonder whether the Mark Carney of 2020 would be slightly disappointed in the Marc Carney.
- [33:42]
Mark Carney
I think if you look in the mark, in fact, I know that looking in that book that you've got your hand on, you will see two important things in there. One is a discussion of exactly what I just said, the emissions reductions, and secondly, carbon value for money, which is a fundamental point, which is using scarce public dollars to most efficiently reduce emissions.
- [34:05]
Michelle Hussain
You've clearly had a really intense few months and you've made clear what you're up against. Right. Canada prospered under the old world and we're not going back to the old world. How long do you plan to serve?
- [34:19]
Mark Carney
That's a great question. I think that I'm in a minority position. My party is in a minority position. In Parliament we ran on a very strong mandate, in other words, going to do big things, that we're going to put the country in a. Build the country strong.
- [34:37]
Michelle Hussain
But I think you made such big pledges that it's hard to imagine that you could fulfill them in less than a decade. So I imagine you do want to serve two terms. You want to build a huge number of houses, you've made a big pledge on defense. Benny, you're in a tight economic framework where growth is hard to find.
- [34:55]
Mark Carney
Well, it's a democracy and you have to ask permission from voters for the time served. I think what's essential, again, we are in a crisis, we're in an economic crisis. This fundamental shift in the world and we make this point, and I'll make it again, it's not a transition, it's a rupture. It's big changes in a very short period of time. And I know from all my experience that in those situations you have to act big, you have to act bold. That is what we're going to do. The politics will favorably or unfavorably will result from that. But I don't want to be in a position, however long I serve, where I didn't do what I didn't think was necessary at the time. I need to do what I think is necessary.
- [35:39]
Michelle Hussain
And what is at stake if you don't succeed? We're in an age of rising populism. In many countries in Canada, the old acceptance of immigration has changed a lot and anti immigrant sentiment is rising. Do you fear the specter of populism? Because you've said populists don't know how to run economies.
- [35:59]
Mark Carney
That's true. They know how to talk about it, but they know how to run economies down. I think I'll answer the question this way. We're doing big things. We're building the economy. What's important is how we're building as well. We're building, for example, with indigenous Canadians. In these major projects there will always be indigenous participation in the ownership. We are building in an inclusive way with unions. These we're creating hundreds of thousands of high paying skilled careers. So when I announced our first batch of nation building projects, we had the heads of all the major unions were there with me representing the millions of workers that are part of those unions. We are building sustainably. So when we are energy projects, huge swath of clean energy projects, anything in other sectors is top quartile or top decile in terms of the lowest carbon emissions.
- [36:50]
Michelle Hussain
But are you optimistic about all of this? Because everything that you're signaling is these are very hard roads to go down where there are a lot of high expectations and arguably your chances of delivering certainly in the next five years are, are probably relatively low. So where do you find the optimism?
- [37:09]
Mark Carney
Well, I think that I know that Canadians recognize the scale of the challenge. They want the government to act. They feel fundamentally that we need to take care of ourselves. That's building for ourselves and it's diversifying around the world and they're fundamentally supported, supportive of that. Yes, we have to deliver. Canadians are not unrealistic people. They know it won't change overnight, but they need to see us doing everything we can to make sure that it changes for the medium term.
- [37:43]
Michelle Hussain
Can we bring it back to you to close? Because this is the Bloomberg weekend interview and as it happens, we're talking on a weekend that's. You've come into the office to record this on a Saturday. What are prime ministerial weekends like for you these days?
- [38:01]
Mark Carney
Well, I took off my tie. So that's a big, big step. They are pretty indistinguishable from Prime Ministerial weeks. There is no weekend in effect, there is no weekend, with the sole exception of on a weekend you can find one evening where just with the family, you might be able to go Canada in the winter, cross country skiing or something, or for a run. There is some element of that, but it's pretty limited and that's fine. That's exactly what I would have expected in terms of the scale of the task and weekend. I don't know if it's a chance to catch up, but it's a. It's on work, but it's a chance to. To plan a bit ahead.
- [38:44]
Michelle Hussain
Yeah. And the space to think. How do you find that? Because I find the papers, the staff, the people demanding decisions all the time.
- [38:55]
Mark Carney
Yes, but part of the job is to create space to think and to. After all, the job is to be a leader. And to be a leader, you need to know where you're going. And knowing where you're going means you need a strategy. And that strategy may need to adapt. I mean, the world is changing very rapidly. So if I don't carve out some time on a weekend, for example, to think and think about strategy, then I'm not doing my job. It's very easy. Your question's very on point because it's very easy to be consumed by the here and now. And there are so many calls on your time. Everybody wants some of your time for valid reasons that you have to resist some of that to preserve some, to chart the course.
- [39:41]
Michelle Hussain
Mark Carney, Prime Minister thank you.
- [39:43]
Mark Carney
Thank you, Michelle.
- [39:49]
Michelle Hussain
And that the Mishaal Hussain show this week to make sure you never miss an episode. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and if you want to leave us a comment while you're there, I hear that's a good thing. If you'd like to see my conversation with Mark Carney, you'll find the video online and@Bloomberg.com weekend you'll find the written version of this interview with an illustration of the guest and my notes, why I asked, what I did and the context around it. The Michelle Hussain show is produced by Jessica Beck and Chris Martloo. Guest booking by Dave Warren. Social media by Alex Morgan. Our sound engineer is Blake Maples. Our video editor is Evando Thompson. Our executive producer is Louisa Lewis. Brendan Francis Newnham is editorial director of Audio and special projects for Bloomberg Weekend. Catherine Bell is the executive editor of Weekend. Our music is composed by Bart Warshaw. And we'd also like to thank Ilana Sussnow, Victoria Wakely, Adam Blenford, Summer Saadi, and Sage Bauman. And thank you for listening. Do come back next weekend.
- [41:14]
Advertisement Voice
Every business starts with an idea. How can you go from daydreamer to industry leader? Amazon Business accelerates your journey with smart business buying. Get everything you need to grow in one familiar place. From office supplies to IT essentials and maintenance tools. Amazon Business takes the buying experience you know and love from Amazon plus tools that help you save costs and make insights based decisions ready to bring your visions to life. Learn how@AmazonBusiness.com did my card go through? Oh no.
- [41:46]
Mark Carney
Your small business depends on its Internet. So switch to Verizon Business and you can get LTE Business Internet starting at $39 a month when paired with Select Business Mobile Plans. That's unlimited data for Unlimited Business.
- [41:59]
Advertisement Voice
There we go.
- [42:00]
Mark Carney
Get the Internet you need at the price you want. Verizon Business Starting price for lte Business Internet 25 Mbps Unlimited Data Plan with select Verizon Business Smartphone Plan. Savings terms apply. So have you heard the story about the prescription plan? With savings automatically built in, it's where a family of any size can feel confident the cost of their medication won't hold them back. Go to CMK Co Stories to learn how CBS Caremark helps members save just by being members. That's CMK Co Stories.