A (2:49)

I was 31, which made me feel good because I'm in the band but maybe a little younger. How about you?

B (2:54)

Mine was 57, which was even more problematic that between the six year old songs I listened to a lot of 60s 70s music. So.

A (3:03)

Okay, so they're just averaging it out.

B (3:05)

We averaged out to 57 so without.

A (3:07)

The kids you'd be like 110.

B (3:08)

Yeah. It literally said you are an old soul. So. I am. But not when it comes to technology.

A (3:16)

No technology. We are youthful and spry and ready to analyze all the stuff that's going on. But yeah, one more note on this. If you do see us and you're wrapped, whether it's on Spotify, YouTube, wherever, share it, we'll like it. We'll try to distribute as many of these as we can. So thank you for that. Okay, this week, very interesting week. So much tech news as always. But the big story for me was the fact that a seemingly ho hum move turned into a much bigger story for me and that was that Apple's head of user interface design, Alan Dye, along with the deputy and maybe some other team members went over to meta meta poached them. They're going to put them on their AI enabled glasses, the Meta Ray Bans and the Meta Ray Bans display, which of course has a screen in it. They're going to bring some Apple sensibilities over into these meta glasses. It's complicated because according to a report, it's not exactly the best talent that Apple's had and we'll get into that. But I do think that this really does kick off the AI device wars. Now you have Meta, you have Amazon, you have Apple, you have OpenAI and Google. All in the mix and this is going to be a very, very big deal moving forward. So your reaction just briefly on the decision of these Apple executives to move to meta and the significance of it.

B (4:35)

Yeah, I also like that you added OpenAI to that actual roster even though they have not actually announced their physical device yet. But they're teasing.

A (4:45)

We're going to get into it. We're Going to go company by company.

B (4:47)

Yeah, we're going to go company. Yeah. So I thought it was incredibly interesting again. Yeah. Apple executives going over to Meta and we're going to get into who these Apple executives are and incredible Gruber piece on that one. But we've been saying this for a while, like Meta is the coolest company right now in physical devices. I never would have thought, I would have said that Meta Ray Bans are probably from like a hardware standpoint, the most interesting and useful hardware and physical device I have tried or I own a pair now in the last couple of years. So I think they are incredibly interesting. And also the fact that it's no longer the Metaverse VR, it's this whole new form factor and surface area. It has to be interesting if that's what your specialty is.

A (5:39)

Yeah, I thought that these poaching and again, we're going to get into the talent side of it, but it definitely took on this feeling of maturity of the space beyond. Just like this is a nascent thing with a bunch of kooky startups like you main and the rabbit R1 and the friend pendant. When you start seeing the poaching of top talent from one company to another, you know you're in a war and you know, it's sort of like the starting bell of something very big that's about to come.

B (6:05)

Yeah. And the fact that Meta is going to be, like we said it maybe a couple of months ago, I remember you said it and it had not occurred to me, but that Meta is now going to be Apple's biggest competitor in the hardware space. And I never thought that that could be possible or the case, but I really think that will be the case. And I think Mark Zuckerberg, ever since iOS 14.5 and Apple trying to kneec and them actually coming out of it stronger than ever, has probably just been waiting for this moment for a long time. That's right, go right at Tim and Apple.

A (6:41)

They so hated the fact that they have to go through the iOS system to reach their users, that they have been dead set on building the next operating system, whether it was in virtual or mixed reality with their Meta, with the Oculus purchase and the quest and all that. Or now getting into AI. Let's get into the talent.

B (7:01)

Let's get into the talent. This was amazing.

A (7:04)

So obviously you see the head of user interface design leave Apple and you're like, oh, like major coup for Meta. And to me I think it's a little mean. But the best one liner that I've seen about this move is that the IQ of both Meta and Apple have gone up because of this exit. Jon Gruber, obviously a friend of the show, somebody who is a very close Apple watcher, has been for years, has been largely praised. Apple frequently up until recently.

B (7:35)

Did not.

A (7:36)

Have nice things to say, read and fall about Alan Dye, he wrote. Alan Dye is not untalented, but his talent. This guy who led user interface design at Apple, but his talents at Apple were in politics. His political skill was so profound that it was his decision to leave despite the fact that his tenure is considered a disaster by actual designers inside and outside the company. And he says also, it's rather, I mean this is no punches pulled here. It's rather extraordinary in today's hyper partisan world that there's nearly universal agreement among actual practitioners of user interface design that Alan Dye is a fraud who led the company deeply astray. It was a big problem inside the company too. I'm aware of dozens of designers who left Apple out of frustration over the company's direction. I'm not sure there are any interaction designers at OpenAI working on this joint venture IO who weren't X Apple, and if they are, it's only a handful. From the stories I'm aware of, the theme is identical.

A (8:38)

These are designers driven to do great work. And under Allen Dye, doing great work was no longer the guiding principle at Apple.

A (8:47)

Is it possible that both companies win here because Meta does get someone who may not be an A player at Apple, may have been great at Apple politics, but still has Apple design sensibilities and Apple gets some fresh blood at the top of their user interface design.

B (8:59)

But the thing is like I'm having trouble with it because Meta, the Ray Bans, as I said, actually have been done in a really interesting way. Like the simplicity of it is what you want in a UI in any kind of new device is trying to incorporate a bit of AI into it and just like making it simple, useful. Which were the core Apple design principles for so long. But we've seen the last three to five, maybe seven years. I mean everything about Apple UI has gotten more complex, messy, difficult. Like even like, you know, Vision Pro aside, just the core iOS has just used to be this like simple thing that was a pleasure to use. Now anytime I remember like using a friend's Windows computer and I had not touched Windows in a long time and I was like, oh wait, this is actually just as good, if not better. So I think is it going to actually be net beneficial for Meta or will it actually bring potentially problems to Meta when they have momentum.

A (10:07)

What do you think?

B (10:08)

See, I guess I don't know exactly what was he responsible for at what time within Apple?

A (10:16)

I mean he basically. All these big initiatives within Apple. The design of the operating system of the Vision Pro, Vision os. That was him. Liquid Glass. That was him.

B (10:26)

See that doesn't, that doesn't bode well. I'm saying like if it was. Yeah the, the Jony I've era or like the, like the. It's been a long time since Apple truly from a design perspective has had like this like beauty and competitive edge and was just something just so different from the rest of the industry. And that's what Meta probably. I know that's what they want, but I don't think this is going to bring that to.

A (10:51)

Well, I still think it's a win for Meta because I think that somebody who is steeped in the Apple design process, bringing a sprinkle of that into the Meta design process will be good. I will say Liquid Glass is terrible. I've had to turn off. I picked up the 17 Pro this week after speaking with MG Siegler on Monday. Great phone. Liquid Glass sucks. I've had to turn off like as many of the Liquid Glass features as I can.

B (11:20)

What exactly is it? Because I have not enabled it. I'm still 15 Pro Max and actually not looking to upgrade.

A (11:29)

It basically makes a lot of things look translucent and I couldn't look at it anymore. I got sick of looking at the time on my lock screen which was like it looked like it was etched in there and like a fifth grader did it. I just hated it so much I turned it off.

B (11:43)

This is the thing that so many of these little efforts that are so designy, like even Siri right now, like when you press it on your phone and you get the border of your phone kind of like lighting up in this, it looks kind of cool. Yet Siri is more terrible than ever and we're far, far away from improving. So it feels like a lot of the energy really went to not functional use, case utilization and making people's lives easier, but just things that just were so designery. And that's not going to help Meta the Ray Ban's work because it really is clear that no one was overly precious about trying to be too designy. And they're like, let's just make this brutally functional. Which I think is a different philosophy.

A (12:33)

But you know what's interesting about this? We're talking about user interface design and of Course, the Ray Ban Meta displays are this new pair of glasses that have a screen on them and Meta has obviously been working on the screen, but ultimately what is an AI device? We don't fully know what it's going to look like.

B (12:49)

No, no.

A (12:50)

Is it going to be a hockey puck? Is it going to be a pendant?

B (12:52)

It's going to be a pendant.

A (12:53)

Is it going to be a pair of. Okay, is it going to be a pair of glasses? Is it going to be the AirPods with their translation and Siri inside? It can be a variety of these things. But notice what comes to mind as I start speaking about all these various devices. It's not a screen, it's an assistant inside. Whoever has the best AI is going to have a real chance of winning here as long as they package it correctly. Now, user interface design can also be design of a voice user interface, I imagine, but I think with that in mind, we should just go one by one with all the companies that have push in the space and talk a little bit about whether they can win or not. And let's start with Apple. If Apple puts the same Siri in there, they're not going to win. Doesn't matter who's running design.

B (13:36)

No, I think Apple is by far the worst position for this. Not only is Siri still just unbelievably terrible, this has been years now. I've been saying this, but I've seen no improvement. But they are a screen first company. They invented the mobile screen or at least.

B (13:57)

One that looks better than the BlackBerry. Yes, exactly. I mean the touchscreen, bringing it to the world, making it a beautiful experience. That is the single core, like, you know, selling point of Apple. That's what they own. They have not shown the ability to actually come up with any kind of innovation on any other kind of true ui. So I don't think they're well positioned. What about.

A (14:19)

Okay, I don't think so either. I mean, what are they going to do? They're going to run, right? They just, by the way. So speaking of Apple, Alice Intrigue, the head of.

A (14:29)

Apple AI John Gandria, he's gone. And now they brought in a new executive who had come from Apple but had also spent 16 years at Google. And my hot take on that is he's there to do the Gemini integration. So are your smart glasses going to be Gemini glasses if you're Apple? Can you win that way? I don't think so, no.

B (14:49)

Like Google will always have an edge over you.

A (14:53)

Unless, I mean, okay, that's the Argument to build your own model.

B (14:55)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also, but I guess maybe there's a world where Google from a hardware perspective has always been a follower. Like they take Google or Apple. Google, Google. And they actually, I kind of really want the new Pixel Fold phone. I saw someone had it and I'm like obsessed with it now. It's like $1,800 though, so not diving in right away. But still that's following on Samsung and others. Like Google has never shown true leadership in the hardware space. Google Glass, I mean, I mean, kind of, I guess just 10 years too early, 15 years too early. But yeah, I think Google, like Apple, maybe that's their opportunity if they can really start to figure out the actual AI side and still they just know hardware. Maybe they're screen first, but maybe that's the only shot they possibly have. But it doesn't look great.

A (15:54)

Yeah. Now it could be that maybe the AI device that syncs so well with your phone that it's natural and you have to have it, that could potentially be like the way that AirPods sync so well with the iPhone. That's a benefit. Maybe even if Apple doesn't have the best model, it's because it syncs so well with the phone. But again, like they try to do that with Apple intelligence. I don't know if it's.

B (16:13)

Wait, wait, hold on, let's work through this one. I genuinely believe like one of the most important innovations of the AirPods were the W3 chip and how easily they sync. Bluetooth has gotten a lot better. So now like external earphones actually can sync very well. But I mean, what was it seven, eight years ago like AirPods? The magic of them was you just put them on and they connected to your phone, MacBook, iPad very easily. So you're right. Maybe the connectivity can be something I'm trying here. I'm trying for Apple.

A (16:47)

All right, let's not write them off completely, but it's going to be an uphill battle. Meta out ahead. We both have the meta Ray Ban glasses. We like them a lot. I would say my primary use for them is camera photos and videos. But there are times where, I don't know, I feel like it's kind of like old school Alexa. I'll ask it for the time. Maybe the weather.

A (17:11)

Rarely do I ever say, hey, what am I looking at? And get anything interesting from it. But they are out ahead. They have a couple million in market. The smart glasses market, according to Reuters this year tripled. So I would say that they have as Good a chance as any. But they've also struggled on the model building front. If you're going to put the latest version of LLAMA in there, you're going to be behind OpenAI whenever OpenAI releases, whatever it releases now.

B (17:38)

Again, same with Ray Bans. The AI functionality, use it. Actually asking it questions is not great. I do use the. What am I looking at? Like with birds and stuff or like, especially like plants, whatever, you know, I'll check them out, I'll try to see what I'm looking at. I'll admit it, I'll admit it.

A (17:58)

Yeah, that's going to live on the Internet forever.

B (18:00)

Some kind of nature. I like it, but. So they have a shot. But I also think that, like, yeah, whoever owns.

B (18:11)

The real estate on your face, on your head, whether it's gonna be audio in your ear, whether it's gonna be audio or visual, through the glasses, that is where the battle takes place as the starting point. But then you have to deliver the actual intelligence side of it. And agreed. Meta, the AI side.

B (18:31)

Has work to do, but still far ahead. I have not. Have you tried the new display?

A (18:36)

I haven't tried those. I've tried the Orion with the full display, which are pretty amazing. I haven't been able to try these new ones, but people say good things about them.

B (18:45)

Yeah. And I had tried the SNAP augmented reality, like in the developer environment there, augmented reality glasses. So I am relatively bullish on the idea of kind of like an AR display, little screen sitting there on your glasses. If they can win that and nail that, I think that's good. I think they're well positioned. This is in a way that they would not have been just a few years ago.

A (19:12)

Here's my hot take on Meta. Over the next year, you will see Meta bring in other AI models. You will see them partner with Google. You might see them partner with OpenAI.

B (19:23)

Didn't they just spend God knows how much money on Super Intelligence Lab?

A (19:27)

I think they did. They spent a lot of money on talent. But for them, winning the operating system is more important than having the model.

B (19:34)

Wait, wait, wait. They're calling the operating system the OS.

A (19:37)

On your smart glasses.

B (19:38)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay.

A (19:39)

So I think as long as they have control over. I mean, yes, if you bring in Gemini, you basically license Gemini and bring it in. The same way that Apple's gonna do it with Siri. As long as you have the delivery mechanism, just don't Smartphone, that means you own the device.

B (19:55)

I think like they're too bought in.

A (19:57)

And here's why I think he's gonna do it.

B (19:59)

Yeah.

A (20:00)

Apple is gonna release its smart glasses targeted end of next year. You have to have a better offering than Apple, period. And so even if you have to give up a little control on the agent side, you do it.

B (20:10)

Okay. Okay. Either way, well positioned.

A (20:13)

Well positioned. Let's go to OpenAI. Recently as last month, Sam Altman and Jony I've who've of course came to the $6.5 billion agreement to work together.

B (20:24)

Oh my God, I forgot the amount.

A (20:26)

It's a lot of money. A lot of money. They are building something that looks like a smartphone but has no screen. They say they've settled on a form factor and the rumors say that's what it is. Obviously OpenAI comes to it with one of the best models. So what do you think?

B (20:45)

I'm going to say relatively well positioned from the model. And the reason I say that is Voice mode works already very well. And actually Voice has become almost my primary way of interacting with AI. I use something called Whisper Flow. I love. It's like you can kind of define your own dictionary. So it starts actually getting your dictation right. You can ramble and it'll condense it and clean it up. So like I believe voice is going to be the primary way people do interact with AI. And OpenAI has already shown that. Yeah. From a model perspective from like south park, you know, kind of like making fun of it, but it's because it's so good.

B (21:28)

That being said, my concern with OpenAI is just focus and more came out this week around them and their Code Red and what projects they're going to focus on and what they're going to delay. They have too much going on. So hardware. My prediction is it's going to be this kind of side project that is going to cause internal political turmoil and it'll just not. There's a lot of ego, there's a lot of the Jony Ives of the world are involved and like it's just, it can't be front and center when they have revenue and profitability challenges and like all the core challenges, it's not going to make or break their business anytime soon. So it will get deprioritized and that's going to cause issues.

A (22:14)

Yeah, I think there's going to be a couple of false starts there before they get it right. Some of this like high mind maybe, I don't know, some of this high minded design talk that you hear from Sam and Johnny. Just like the more I hear of it the more I'm like, you're going to have some trouble when you release. I watched an interview of the two of them where Sam said, well, Johnny told me that we know the device will be ready when you're going to want to take a bite out of it. And the first time we liked a prototype but we didn't really want to eat it and now we have one that we want to take a bite out of.

B (22:45)

That is actually how I evaluate all my technology when I go to the Apple Store, when I go to the Google store, when I was buying my meta Ray Bans, the poor store associate. Yeah, you're like gnawing on the thing.

A (22:58)

I have to do this just.

B (23:00)

Johnny, I have said it. But, but in a way though, let's say let's. Their advantage in this is I do think starting from scratch, when you think about what is the hardware for the AI era going to look like is an advantage. Not having any legacy. It's got to be glasses, it's got to be a screen. And just really starting from like I hate saying first principles but I'm going to say like, I mean and just really being able to reimagine what that is and what's the purpose of it is a cool moment to really rethink design. And I do think it gives them at least a little bit of an advantage, I guess.

A (23:43)

But let me ask you this. If the device is smartphone style, has no screen, why isn't it just an app?

B (23:49)

Because it's got the. I mean, I don't know but actually hold on. I saw so Plod P L A U D they have basically a pin and like a notebook business card sized thing that's basically just a recorder, an AI recorder. I just saw that they're at like 250 million in revenue. I've been looking at them like so already that form factor of having a separate device that's just a recorder and can maybe do some other things and like just gets your context, processes it, maybe is able to do it on device. I think there's something there.

A (24:28)

I'm just smiling because I'm just waiting for Sam and Johnny to come out with a device and it just looks like a donut. It's a chocolate donut with sprinkles on top. You're gonna love it and it will.

B (24:41)

Record everything you do. I always bite my devices.

A (24:44)

Yeah, well then you are the world's top. You're on par with the world's top design talent. So you know one company that gets Overlooked here is Amazon. Remember, Amazon has hundreds of millions of echo devices.

A (24:59)

It actually has smart glasses, which might surprise many of you. They're called the Echo frames.

B (25:05)

There was a while they were throwing echo into everything.

A (25:08)

Yep. Echo microwave, echo echo wall clock. But they do have smart glasses. And I will say, a couple months ago, Panos Panay from Amazon Head of Devices and Services, sat in the seat you're sitting in, told me that Alexa is going to roll out to everyone. I don't know if it's fully rolled out yet. I have it, but I have it. I have been surprised. I think it's better than a lot of the reviewers have given it credit for.

B (25:34)

Okay, Amazon, it's an interesting one. First of all, I went back to Alexa and the Amazon Echo. I still have my lights hooked up to Siri, but I had gone full HomePod for a while, and my God, problem.

A (25:48)

Bless your heart.

B (25:49)

Yeah, I know. But so now I have the Echo show. I have a small Echo with a display, Alexa using it a lot in my kitchen. That's become my cooking companion. It's good. It's not great. I do not think it's on par with a Gemini voice mode. OpenAI ChatGPT voice mode. And it gets a lot of stuff wrong. Weirdly, I posted about this on Twitter the other day. It gets NFL scores wrong. It's like, come on, you gotta get these just basic deterministic questions right? But the follow on conversation mode is pretty good. So just from a device ingrained in people's houses standpoint, they're positioned.

A (26:39)

Yeah, I think the personality in it is great. I mean, I just am always attempting to do crazy things with these bots. And I was like, you know, Alexa, I want to have an insult competition with you. And it's like, I don't really want to say anything bad with you. I was like, just do it for fun. Come on, let's trash each other.

B (26:56)

This is what you do.

A (26:57)

This is sort of what I do for fun at home. And we went back and forth and it was actually quite good. And then we got into like a little rap battle. And it owned me. Completely owned me.

B (27:07)

I mean, I'm just asking, like, what's the optimal temperature for dark meat in turkey and stuff like that.

A (27:12)

I mean, I don't know if I would trust it with that, but having a little fun with it. Like, my wife was like, you know, Alexa, like, why does my husband have a shopping addiction? And it really. Alexa, we're all the way in.

B (27:25)

We're all in.

A (27:25)

We're all in. And it gave good answers.

B (27:27)

She's your new companion right now.

A (27:28)

Yeah. Alexa was like, Alexa's your companion? He's my companion. Yep. It's our third.

A (27:34)

It said something like maybe he thinks like hitting the free shipping button means that it will. The whole package will be free and it's just not. It's not free shipping. So it continues to roast me. I think it's very good. I think they have a better chance than a lot of people are getting better for.

B (27:50)

I agree. Just from a standpoint of it's already there. And actually, again, actually going back to the voice interaction, that is the single device and company that people already have a comfortable voice relationship with. Like Voice mode on ChatGPT is like kind of like some people use it, some people don't even know about it. Alexa has been voice first for a decade plus now. People are used to it. So if they get that right, they're okay.

A (28:20)

Yeah. And they could again package it in all these different form factors. Okay. Lastly, Google, like we talked about the, the originator of the Google Glass, they are doing partnerships with Samsung and Warby Parker for a mixed reality version of Gemini. Could they come out on top? I mean, everybody wrote them off in the beginning of the AI race and look at where they are now. So maybe they get the glasses right as well.

B (28:43)

Yeah, I think so. I had a Pixel 9 that I had not used in a long time and it was just gifted it a while back and I plugged it in because I was like, I want to just start seeing what it's like to have Gemini around all day. And I actually think glasses aside, just what Siri is supposed to do on the iPhone. Like every Android device out there, having Gemini as your voice interaction layer is a huge advantage. The same way echoes in everyone's house gives them a natural starting point. It gives Amazon a natural starting point. I think Google, I think that's where they're going to make a dent and that's why if they really push people to talk to Gemini through your phone at the system level, not opening the app, that really opens up a lot of opportunity for them.

A (29:35)

Okay. Lastly, as we think about this category, there have been many failures so far. The humane pin, the rabbit R1 rip.

B (29:45)

Humane rip.

A (29:46)

Now you're at. You're at HP. I can't believe they went to HP. Speaking of like these lofty introduction videos reminds me of the Sam and Jony I've introduction video.

B (29:57)

Should we count HP in all this?

A (29:59)

No, no, no. I swear I'm telling you, I want to throw that printer that I have out. We picked up the printer on the sidewalk for free. It worked for about a year and then. And I want to throw it out the window. So I'm not putting HP in there. But we have seen these failed devices, friend.com, i don't know if that's going to work. Doesn't seem like it. Oh yeah, Is that just like the early startup energy? Finding a category that's going to work, failing and sort of waiting for big tech to come in and pick it up? Or is that a sign of something much worse? Maybe the fact that, yeah, all these companies have an AI device initiative, but maybe it won't work. Maybe this is just a bunch of wheel spinning and we're sort of talking our way through something that's not really going to work.

B (30:45)

No, see, I think the humanes of the world, the rabbits of the world, were actually victims of hype and of the cycle that like a proper startup having time to kind of like work through, get it into the hands of early adopters, have people test buggy devices, be happy about it. They never had that because they got so hyped up so fast. They raised so much money, they came out big with lofty videos and these devices did not work well to start. So I don't think again, I really think the AI first device battle is going to be one of the most interesting stories of the next few years.

A (31:25)

And speaking of hype that hasn't panned out. The Metaverse. This is from Bloomberg. Mark Zuckerberg plans deep cuts for Metaverse efforts. Meta's Mark Zuckerberg is expected to meaningfully cut resources for building the so called Metaverse, an effort he once framed as the future of the company and the reason for changing its name from Facebook. Inc. Executives are considering potential budget cuts as high as 30% for the metaverse Group this year, which includes the Virtual Worlds product Meta Horizon Worlds and its Quest virtual reality units. Cuts that high would most likely include layoffs as early as January.

A (32:06)

It's amazing seeing the names of these products. Horizon Worlds, never forget. What the hell do those products look like today? Is there anybody roaming around the actual Metaverse anymore? I would say except for Meta employees, but Meta employees didn't even use it.

B (32:23)

Actually, hold on now. That makes me wish I don't own any Meta VR products. I've tried all of them. I want to put it on and just go into Horizon Worlds and see who's there. You're just going to find some Random guy just holding on. Boz is in there. Just. Yeah, just.

A (32:41)

I hate to say it, I mean, I shouldn't even say it, but you could imagine there are some unscrupulous dudes making their way around Horizon world.

B (32:49)

Actually, maybe it is kind of like an amazing Blade Runner style. Dystopian slates right now.

A (32:53)

Just End of Society, the Wild West.

B (32:55)

Ghost Towns, Mad Max, Blade Runner. This is like now I'm kind of interested.

A (33:01)

Yeah. But do you think this is okay? So they're going to cut 30% potentially. Is this the end of the Metaverse? Seems like. It seems like that's over.

B (33:08)

And it's good because like, again, an augmented reality layer in their glass, like whatever was supposed to happen before did not. It didn't work. I think moving to all these other new form factors and opportunities, the fact that they're going all in, hiring the Apple execs, it's good. I think it's over. I think virtual reality should go back to niche use cases, gaming, hopefully keep improving. Be this kind of like product that's maybe a reasonably big market, but not the way everyone interacts with life. Right.

A (33:48)

We just had Nick Clegg back on the VP of the former head of global affairs at Meta. And. And to prepare for that interview, I listened to the time that I interviewed him@davos four years ago. And back then he was telling me about how great it was that he was able to have a meeting with his direct reports in a virtual conference room and feel presence and the fact that they might be in separate cities or countries and they could all feel together. I think in theory that might have sound like a good idea.

B (34:20)

Really do that.

A (34:21)

I think Meta might have done it.

B (34:23)

A little bit, but did you guys really do that? Come on. Just like, did these meetings ever take place in reality? Yeah. I so wonder whether. Cause yeah, no, it's funny you bring that up. Like that actually would be kind of a fun. I'm gonna go on YouTube and start looking up those old interviews. Cause like, it's gonna sound.

A (34:42)

It sounds preposterous.

B (34:43)

Preposterous right now. Again, we could sound preposterous five years from now when and you're all listening to me and the replays of talking about pins and whatever else, big blocks that just record your voice all the time. Could sound ridiculous, but yeah.

A (35:00)

All right, so overall, Metaverse, dead, but good pivot for Meta because they were able to put a lot of that technology into this AI glasses, which is actually showing promise.

B (35:09)

Do you think Mark Zuckerberg should more directly say it was a mistake.

A (35:14)

Yeah, I think he should. I think he should too. He should say it was a mistake. We're Facebook. We're back to Facebook.

B (35:20)

We're back in a big way. We actually figured out and are leading this next revolution in hardware. And you know what? We tried. We took a bet. It failed. But look at us. We're like agile and enough to actually keep going versus the. Well, there's so long where they're trying to conflate the AI development with the metaverse, just refusing technology. It was over.

A (35:45)

Right. I'm thinking about the name, maybe keep Meta actually, because the Ray Ban meta is a good name. The Ray Ban Facebooks would be weird.

B (35:52)

I don't know. You're right.

A (35:55)

It's maybe grown on me, even though it's embarrassing.

B (35:57)

No, you're right. Like, and meta, it doesn't necessarily mean the metaverse. It's just kind of. It's meta, you know? Yeah, yeah. I mean. But no, no, you're right. Ray Ban Facebooks would have been terrible. Ray Ban meta. I say it all the time, totally naturally. Yes. Yeah.

A (36:13)

Okay, so metaverse dead. But meta is alive.

B (36:17)

Meta is alive.

A (36:18)

All right, we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to talk about the code red inside OpenAI regarding ChatGPT, what the implications are there. Whether ChatGPT is actually losing users, whether Anthropic might be gaining in the enterprise world. And then we are also going to break down this big deal that was just announced this morning. Netflix is planning to acquire Warner brothers discovery for $72 billion. And the deal may or may not go through. I think it won't. All right, we'll be back right after this. Finding the right tech talent isn't just hard, it's mission critical. Hiring great engineers isn't just filling roles, it's how you outpace competitors. And that's where indeed comes in. Tech hiring tip of the week brought to you by. Indeed, 83% of tech professionals say career development is a must have in a job offer offer outranking stock options, sign on bonuses and unlimited PTO if you want to win. Talent, lead with growth paths, not just perks. Indeed is the number one site where tech talent applies to jobs. With over 3 million US tech professionals on the platform, it's more than a job board. It's a tech hiring partner that uses data and AI to help you reach candidates with the right skills at the right time. If I needed to hire top tier tech talent, talent I'd go with indeed. Post your first job and get $75 off at indeed.comtechtalent that's indeed.comtechtalent Indeed. Built for what's now and what's next in tech hiring the holidays are almost here and if you still have names on your list, don't panic. Uncommon Goods makes holiday shopping stress free and joyful. With thousands of one of a kind gifts you can't find anywhere else. You'll discover presents that feel meaningful and personal, never rushed or last minute. I was scrolling through their site and found the set of college cityscape wine glasses and immediately thought this is perfect. It's the kind of gift where when a recipient unwraps it, they'll know that you really thought about them. Uncommon Goods looks for products that are high quality, unique and often handmade or made in the us. Many are crafted by independent artists and small businesses, so every gift feels special and thoughtfully chosen. So don't wait. Make this holiday the year you give something truly unforgettable. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com BigTech that's UncommonGoods.com BigTech for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer Uncommon Goods we're all out of the ordinary these days. It feels like every dollar should be working a little harder, but figuring out where to put your cash can be confusing. That's where Wealthfront comes in. Wealthfront is a tech driven financial platform built to help you grow your savings into long term wealth. Their High Yield Cash account through Program banks offers a 3.5% APY on your uninvested cash as of November 7, 2025. And there are no monthly fees, no minimum or maximum balance to earn that rate. And you can even make free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts in just minutes 247 so your money can always be within reach. Right now Wealthfront is offering new clients an extra 0.65% APY over the base rate for three months on up to a $150,000 balance. That's a total of 4.15% variable APY when you open your first cash account. Go to wealthfront.com bigtech to sign up today. This is a paid testimonial for Wealthfront. It may not reflect the experience of others and there's no guarantee of future performance or success. Wealthfront Brokerage is not a big rate is subject to change promo terms and conditions. For more information, see the episode description and we're back here on Big Technology Podcast, Friday edition breaking down the week's news earlier in the week I thought this was going to be our lead story, but so much has happened since that, you know, we pushed it to the second half, but it's still important. OpenAI declared a code Red within the company as Gemini threatens ChatGPT's lead here's from the Information OpenAI CEO Sam Altman on Monday told employees he was declaring a Code Red to marshal more resources to improve ChatGPT as threats rise from Google and other artificial intelligence competitors. As a result, OpenAI plans to delay to delay other initiatives such as advertising, Altman said. We are at a critical time for ChatGPT. Altman said the code red surge to improve ChatGPT meant OpenAI would also delay progress with other products such as AI agents and Pulse, which generates personalized reports for ChatGPT users to read each morning. How dire is it for ChatGPT? I mean, there are some reports that they lost like 6% of users to Gemini. I don't know if I fully buy that. I don't think everybody just ran away to Gemini right away. Maybe they were trying it. But how dire do you think the situation is for ChatGPT right now?

B (41:05)

So the numbers around 6% was sourced from similar web. So like I take that with a grain of salt because that's not going to capture actual app utilization and that's just like web traffic, which I mean I have to imagine at least my own personal life. And I'm guessing most the app is like the core entry point for their ChatGPT usage. But I mean certainly Gemini 3 has come on strong and we talked about this last week, that just being as good poses not an existential threat, but a significant one for OpenAI because Gemini is going to be everywhere. All the people who have never used ChatGPT 800 million is a lot. It's not what is the world at now, 7 billion people, whatever it is. So I think that is important. But also what was really interesting to me was what you just read there. Like.

B (41:59)

Is it going to pause its ad product? Is it going to Even the fact that they said like pausing agents, which because to me still agentic is even chatgpt. What's happening underneath is agenting in its nature. But whatever they were advertising before about kind of building these more agentic workflows or their agent builder, which they launched and you never heard about again, and then Pulse, which we talked about a.

A (42:25)

Little bit, but it's an ad product that was supposed to be their ad.

B (42:28)

Product yeah, all of this and what we were saying about their consumer devices, they have been launching everything like non stop over like, I mean, and everything always kind of looks pretty good. Their browser, Atlas, I tried it, used it, it's as good as Comet from Perplexity. They've launched all these things. But is that the right approach to the spray and pray and hope you find the winning product or you just focus on ChatGPT and the core product and just distribution, getting people using it? Maybe there's like a marketing campaign, something like that. What do you think?

A (43:11)

Well, they're going to have to spend, they're planning to spend 1.4 trillion on developing infrastructure for future model building. And the reason why they have the money to be able to do that is because the world by and large thinks that they're the best at building AI, at building AI products. The second that chin goes away, all of a sudden your ability to raise this ungodly amount of money goes away completely. Right. Like Marc Benioff had an interesting quote this week where he was just like, AI models are a commodity. I just find the cheapest one and plug it in.

B (43:41)

Who has said that? Mark, who's been saying that for years right here.

A (43:44)

He's been on the show.

A (43:47)

And he, maybe he's listening. But I do think that if the world starts to pick, and obviously Benioff praised Gemini, if the world starts to pick up on this signal and all of a sudden ChatGPT is one of many, or OpenAI and ChatGPT and the GPT models are one of many as opposed to the leader, then the OpenAI story gets much, much harder to put together.

B (44:10)

Yeah. And then I had actually seen this thread and it was really interesting to me was that like OpenAI and I've said this for a long time too from a product and actually we've spoken, we were speaking about hardware UI for all the early part of the episode. From a software UI standpoint, they have built beautiful products, they've built usable products, they created the whole chat UI was not really a true thing. And now like they led the way and, and all Google has to do is just copy everything they do, wait for them to innovate, release, just copy. Because UI is not patented, UI is not going to be like and like whatever new features they're releasing in that interface, Google just replicates it. It's not overly complicated stuff. And then Google that just keeps them on par. And I think that actually thinking about it that way was even more terrifying for, for me in regards to OpenAI.

A (45:09)

Yeah, I'm looking at some data from the FT here. It looks like Gemini is getting very close to the number of monthly downloads that ChatGPT has. It surpassed it in average time spent, which of course is a tricky metric, but that's pretty worrying, I think. If you're OpenAI, what are you going to. Because again, and we're going to talk about this in a moment, you've effectively, I wouldn't say you've ceded enterprise AI, but you're losing enterprise AI to anthropic, somewhat seeded it. So you cannot allow Gemini to surpass you here. Otherwise. The company is built on a story. If the story falls apart, the company falls apart.

B (45:49)

No, no, you're right. And that story is we are just the best.

A (45:53)

We're the best AGI superintelligence. Yeah.

B (45:56)

You see, and you're right for. What is it now? Oh, three years, just a week out from the third anniversary for, call it two and a half. There was no one even close. Like, even the clods of the world, like, among more tech forward people, they would find things. And I mean, we all found, like, certain things Claude would do better, but yeah, they can't lose that reputation and feel in the market that, especially in the consumer space, like, they own it.

A (46:29)

Okay, we talked about this last week. What do you think they do in this code red? Like, what do you think they do to make ChatGPT better? And does it potentially involve pulling some levers that they were hesitant to pull previously in terms of personality sycophancy?

B (46:48)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

A (46:49)

Stickiness and optimizing engagement maxing, as it's called.

B (46:54)

Where are you going with this, Alex? I think I know.

A (46:56)

Love erotica.

B (46:57)

Erotica?

A (46:58)

No, it doesn't even have to be. I'm just saying, like, what do you do?

B (47:01)

No, no, I mean, and clearly Alexa is your companion, but I think.

A (47:08)

Thank you for reminding us all of.

B (47:10)

That while I'm just taking photos of birds with my meta glasses.

A (47:14)

We're hip, we're cool.

B (47:18)

No, hold on. That's a really good question. What, what could they do? Or what should they do? Because, like, I'm gonna throw it out there. They need a good marketing campaign. I still. So my parents over Thanksgiving. It's very cute. They're just like, so what do I do with AI? You know, like, I'm trying to show them, trying to show them, like, voice mode on especially. Like, my dad has trouble kind of typing on the phone. I'm like, this literally will be amazing for you. And it's just conceptually. Still difficult to understand. Like, what do I do with this? It's a blank screen on a chat. But, like, that's my call. Like, educate the 6.2 billion people that don't really understand how to use AI chat. And that's your opportunity.

A (48:07)

And so what would you put in the marketing campaign? I think they've done a little bit of this. They do, like, fitness and diet. Not diet, fitness, travel.

B (48:15)

That was a good campaign.

A (48:16)

I think it's amazing for fitness.

B (48:18)

Yeah.

A (48:19)

Like as my fitness coach.

B (48:21)

No, no.

A (48:21)

And as you can tell viewers, it's paying off.

B (48:27)

That's why Lex is so interested.

B (48:30)

So. No, no. Like, again, it was good. It was like. I remember it was like someone's car's broken down. It's like, like, help me fix my radiator. What should I do? Whatever. Like, there's an opportunity there. I think the product is good enough. There's still that entire additional world of people that do not use it. Focus on them. But I really don't understand how they're gonna. They have so much going on right now. They have to have so much going on. I said it last week. Like, the math still doesn't work to me of like, what does their cloud business look like? What does their consumer devices business actually look like? But they have to focus and I don't think they will. But how do they save themselves?

A (49:17)

I don't think it's a marketing campaign. Here's a way I think that you can make the product better and not resort to sycophancy. Improve memory. Memory, to me within ChatGPT has been the killer feature. I find ChatGPT is remembering much more about me in a way that I find not creepy, very useful. I've been planning this trip coming up in December and we've been talking about logistics a tremendous amount and it really does a great job of pulling from past conversations. And again, losing this goldfish brain that so many chatbots have, starting to get to know people better. I mean, does that make you more. Make it more of a companion? Yeah, because it knows you. But I think that will make it unbelievably more useful. And that's the direction I think they're going.

B (50:11)

Agreed. And I actually, I agree with the caveat that, like, I have found it to the memory to actually be not good. Like it's supposed to retain memory within a project, but across multiple chats within a project, it does not. Like, very clearly, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. At the kind of like when you get out of the project layer into the main chat. It sometimes randomly remembers stuff. So I think they got work to do. But okay, I like that.

A (50:40)

Just imagine that that got.

B (50:41)

Yeah.

A (50:41)

If that actually better which I think it can.

B (50:43)

No. And if you had like granular control over what is remembered, what's not remembered. Where is it remembered? Like sometimes like if I'm like doing some like funny create song lyrics here and then in another chat where I'm trying to do something more professional, like it'll pull in that random prompt I was creating. Like. Like giving users granular control over. That is interesting but I they got so much going on over there. I don't see how like that's one of those things that. All hands on deck. Let's win memory in context. That is interesting but can they pull it off?

A (51:22)

I think so. Code Red. I like the code red. You see you have a problem and you're going to attack it.

B (51:26)

Did you order the code Red?

A (51:28)

Sam did.

B (51:28)

Yeah.

A (51:29)

Okay, let's talk a little bit about enterprise before we move to Netflix. If we could talk about this briefly. Ramp has this AI model adoption rate where it talks about businesses. And Anthropic is really gaining ground on OpenAI there.

A (51:48)

Let me take a look here. They say that anthropic has grown 2.1 percentage points over the past month. They say at a business level, API spend by business is larger than typical enterprise chatbot contracts. It's also probably getting stickier over time because business users are starting to figure out which models are best for which tasks. APIs are also a more reliable revenue generator than consumer AI usage, especially as consumers have an increasing number of free options at their disposal. So I'd be pretty happy to be Anthropic right now. It's an underrated business if you're looking at consumer adoption of AI tools. And business use is their most important revenue generator. Its customer base indexes to the tech sector. But that's changing as rapid adoption grows and moves across sectors. So.

A (52:44)

There it is. Anthropic's bet on enterprises is really paying off.

B (52:47)

No, I mean I think it is. And again, as I work in enterprise AI at Rider, for us, the big opportunities actually business users building workflows and bringing AI into the way they work. And Anthropic I still feel from everything I've heard and they've made claims that they're getting more into the actual business side of things. Things but one, coding and two, API usage, it's still a developer first company. Like even the way I actually have been working like playing around with Claude skills, very developer driven. So they're going all in on it engineering and that side of the enterprise. I think it's actually great for them and I think they're going to crush OpenAI in that. So I think overall they have shown I think as a revenue scale from like 1 to 6 billion a lot of the coding they nailed. I mean just being this API first offering they nailed. So I think they're relatively well positioned. But I actually don't think the way this article called like API spend sticky. I don't think it's sticky.

A (53:56)

Really.

B (53:56)

No, I think like that's actually almost more having worked with this stuff, I mean just switching out what you're calling like truly this is where even as at one point if Opus 4.5 is better at coding, cost is going to be the driver, especially in the enterprise. And being able to switch the moment you see that there's another model that can actually do the work.

B (54:22)

On par is a very easy thing to do.

A (54:25)

Okay. All right, well, the battle will continue. You let's talk a little bit about this Netflix Warner Brothers deal. All right, so this is from the Wall Street Journal. Netflix to buy Warner Brothers after split for $72 billion. Netflix has agreed to buy Warner Brothers for $72 billion after the entertainment company splits its studios and HBO max streaming business from its cable networks. A deal that would reshape the entertainment and media industry. The deal was announced Friday and the two sides entered into exclusive negotiations for the media company known for the Superman and Harry Potter movies, as well as hit TV shows such as Friends.

A (55:05)

It seems like it's going to be this big deal for Netflix. I just think that if you get Warner Brothers Discovery and of course it's pending review by the Justice Department, which may not like this deal.

A (55:17)

The early reports are the Justice Department hates this deal and may not let it go through. It may sue to block this. Block it. But the bottom line is that this is going to create a streaming powerhouse. Netflix already extremely powerful, the number one streamer and HBO coming together along with other Warner Brothers discovery properties. I think at Netflix it's a risky thing. They don't usually do deals this big. But at 72 billion, the price is right and you couldn't let anybody else else snatch up Warner Brothers Discovery. What's your take?

B (55:51)

I think it's that last point's the most important. You can't allow anyone else to pick that up. I think like they are in. They're still, you know, kind of the leader in this entire space, they don't have to like manage legacy businesses. Combined with the streaming arm, that gives some advantage, but also plenty of disadvantage. And so to kind of pull that entire gold mine of a catalog into your universe, I think it's like, yeah, it's not defensive in a negative way. It's defensive in a strong way. Like, we are trying. We need to do this and it's going to put us in a better position relative to competitors.

A (56:32)

Yeah, I think Netflix needs to do this from a business standpoint. Smart move. I do want the government to stop it. Now, the government might want to stop it because they preferred that Warner Brothers Discovery go to Paramount. Fair enough.

B (56:43)

Why is that?

A (56:44)

Well, because of politics. But the other side of it to me is even though as a Netflix subscriber, I might be happy to get some HBO content in Netflix because I subscribe to both services.

A (56:59)

We know how cable companies work. They've worked as monopolies. They don't treat customers well. They jack up the prices. There's nothing you can do about it. This might just create one Internet cable company and you know, over time it's going to harm the people that are using these services. I'm against it.

B (57:18)

It's 100% going to. I mean, if you've. I actually did this exercise recently and like went through my streaming bills. Like, it is insane. Like, I mean, the price has just been increasing and increase and increase. So I'll admit I like took an HBO Max Disney Hulu Blue bundle with ads and it is the weirdest feeling to watch HBO with ads. Like, I feel, I mean, just horrible about myself. But I'm still just going through this exercise right now. But like, I mean, it is like they've just been increasing, but introducing these services at a heavy loss, getting people in hooked on them and then just increasing prices regularly. And agreed, like from a consolidation standpoint. Ted Sarandos called this like pro innovation, pro consumer. It's not. It's not, it's not. But, but still, I mean, from, yeah, purely Netflix standpoint, good move for consumers. It's all bad.

A (58:18)

Okay, so let's end on another future of media story, which is that CNN is going to end up in a partnership with Kalshi, which is a prediction markets. This is from Prediction Market. This is from Axios. CNN has struck a partnership with Kalshi, the world's largest global prediction market company, bringing Kalshi's data to its journalism across television, digital and social channels. The collaboration marks the first major news partnership for Kalshi as it looks to establish itself as the most authoritative source of information about real time probabilities of major cultural and political future events.

A (58:58)

Plus and a minus here. The plus is that prediction markets have been ahead of the pundits on news events, talk about elections, talk about other probabilities. So you might want to bring it close to home if you're a news operation. Second thing is I think there was a Kalshi executive this week that was talking about how they wanted to make everything bettable. Everything that has a potential disagreement about some future outcome, they want to make that bettable. I think we've already seen some of the dangers of sports gambling and how it's really destroying people's lives. And I think that you're going to see that again here. And I wonder if CNN is making a mistake mainstreaming this.

B (59:38)

So having worked on a trading floor from 2002 to 2009, I can tell you everything can be bettable. I lived in a world where literally any little disagreement and it was funny because the Kalshi founder, that's what he was talking about. Like any like basically trying to bring structure to disagreement. I think he said like that's what would happen. You just disagree with someone, let's put money on it. And I have always loved the idea of prediction markets. There was actually an early one in the 2000s called trade sports that started introducing politics. I mean every step of the way. Recently as prediction markets have like come in, I think they add had a true element of context and people having money versus punditry. I think they are better. I think from a gambling standpoint and Kalshee tries to say they're not gambling. I think it's hugely problematic. I think there are certain things like weather futures which I think Robinhood is going to introduce. This stuff exists for institutional customers and hedging your business against potential weather issues is. It makes sense. Combine contracts that allow you to hedge against potential risk. That's the thesis of it. Trading for fun and just being like, yeah, I want to make or lose money. The more it's out there is problematic. But I actually think this is kind of cool.

A (61:05)

I just don't like the idea that a news operation is bringing this gambling closer to people. I think it's ruining for instance daily fantasy sports or fantasy sports is ruining the fanduels and stuff. Ruining sports. People are cheating. People are taking their student loans and putting them into these apps.

B (61:25)

Yeah, no, no. Okay. But that is the end user like perfect world. You have some number of well informed, well Capitalized people in these markets, which is what financial markets are supposed to be. And they're the ones actually driving towards this kind of prediction and potential outcome, which in the political context is really interesting because my God, I was home over Thanksgiving and my parents have CNN on and I forgot how terrible it is watching 10 people because I never do it. Just talk and argue around a table versus here's some interesting data. And if you think about it, polling is an interesting science. But like, this is another way of approaching that.

A (62:12)

But you on the show have talked about how it's gameable, how let's say somebody wants to get a candidate elected. You know, they might spend $100,000 on the super PAC or they might just put it on their name Kalshi. And then CNN's gonna be like, oh, candidate Y is doing so well.

B (62:26)

That is why normally this stuff would have happened in well regulated, well established, well monitored like exchanges where the SEC or the like others are CFTC are monitoring this. This is not that. So I recognize this is kind of a bastardization of what in principle I do love. But like and I really think is valuable. So I agree, like on that side, my God, I'm sure these things are the most gamble things. And I agree it's a problem where you game the Kalshi. They start sending some awful tweet about that. It goes viral. Everyone starts thinking this outcome is an inevitability. Maybe someone drops out of a race. I think that stuff is terrible. Regulators go try to take a look at this. Let's build this in a responsible way. And that would be nice.

A (63:20)

Can't happen.

B (63:20)

No, I know.

A (63:22)

All right, well, speaking of predictions, it is getting close to the end of the year, so you and I should come back and do some predictions one of these weeks and tell folks what we think is going to happen next year and then put money on it.

B (63:33)

And then put money on it.

A (63:36)

Prediction market and source that out big technology prediction market.

B (63:43)

Let's put these derivative contracts out there.

A (63:45)

All right. But that'll be a fun episode coming up. Ranjan, always great to have you on and it's great to be able to do this in person once again.

B (63:52)

Always fun. See you next week.

A (63:54)

All right. 57 and music taste.

B (63:56)

Yep, I'll take my creaky knees out of here right now.

A (64:02)

All right, everybody. Thank you, Ranjan, and thank you all for listening and watching. We'll see you next time on big technology podcast Limu Emu.

B (64:11)

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Cut the camera.

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