Big Technology Podcast

Episode: "AI Is Upending Law. Is That A Sign For The Rest Of Us?"

Host: Alex Kantrowitz
Guest: Melia Russell, Senior Correspondent, Business Insider
Date: December 10, 2025

Overview

This episode explores how artificial intelligence (AI), particularly generative AI, is radically transforming the legal profession. Host Alex Kantrowitz is joined by Melia Russell to discuss the dramatic changes, the economic and employment implications, the evolving relationship between lawyers and clients, and what the legal field's AI adoption might signal for other industries. The episode blends industry anecdotes, tech updates, and thoughtful predictions, offering both a canary-in-the-coal-mine warning and an optimistic take on professional services evolution.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Fear to Tool: AI’s Journey in Law

• Background: The 2023 case of a lawyer being sanctioned for submitting AI-fabricated cases (00:00–03:00) created widespread fear of AI in law.
  • Melia: “That case struck fear in the hearts of lawyers across America and became the nightmare scenario that I think colored a lot of public perception...” (02:41)
• Now: Generative AI is regularly, responsibly used in legal research, document review, and more. Over 600 pleadings have since been caught with AI "hallucinations," yet AI-driven legal tech is maturing rapidly.

2. AI Applications & Impact on Legal Workflow

• Cambrian explosion of tools: AI tools now are tailored for legal professionals, focusing on confidentiality, relevant data extraction, and legal-specific functionalities (03:23–04:12).
• Efficiency Gains: Generative AI can take weeks of traditional research and condense it into a prompt, radically accelerating document search and evidence discovery.
  • Kantrowitz: “What they are able to do now is drop full sophisticated paragraphs into generative AI tools like Westlaw and it will return connected, relevant and important research…” (06:03)
  • Russell: “Now they're turning to tools…not just search for keywords, but…find all of the supporting evidence that X happened and it saves them potentially weeks, months of work.” (06:11)

3. Economic Implications: The Future of the Billable Hour

• Revenue Model Tension: Lawyers are worried about AI reducing billable hours, prompting discussion of flat-fee billing or premium pricing on human expertise post-AI review (07:35–09:08).
  • Russell: “Software that promises to save them time. That math doesn't math for them when the risk is that it cuts into their revenue…” (07:35)
• Client Expectations: Clients are now demanding AI use for efficiency—and want proof, putting pressure on firms to evolve or lose clients (10:16–11:13).
  • Russell: “Lawyers are realizing if they don't adopt it, their clients will find other firms that do.” (11:04)

4. Technical Advances & Major Players

• Data Grounding Reduces Hallucinations: Integration with case law databases (LexisNexis, Westlaw) is crucial, as these serve as 'sources of truth' to minimize AI mistakes (14:02–14:45).
  • Russell: “Their argument is that use us because we're going to limit hallucinations because we own the data.” (14:45)
• Harvey & Partnerships: Harvey (AI legal tech startup), partnered with LexisNexis, exemplifies next-gen legal AI platforms (16:50–17:15).
• Ongoing Caution: Despite advances, “You need to check the work”—AI-generated citations and documents still require human validation (17:59–20:10).
  • Russell: “The final product is still your responsibility and you've got to keep your hands on the wheel.” (20:10)

5. Who Benefits Most & Evolving Career Paths

• Value for Juniors & Seniors: Both early-career and seasoned lawyers benefit, but experienced attorneys maximize AI’s value by more quickly detecting errors and extracting insights (20:29–22:12).
• Training Shifts: Firms are introducing AI academies and simulations for new associates due to reduced access to "grunt work" learning experiences (19:18–20:10, 43:38–44:39).
  • Russell: “They're exploring ways to do simulations for their associate classes…” (43:38)

6. Industry Structure & Employment Impacts

• Firm Structure Changing: Potential shift from a "pyramid" (large base of junior associates) to “diamond” or even “rectangle” shapes due to automation of junior-level tasks (41:49–42:52).
  • Russell (joking): “I've also heard a rectangle. I've heard a rectangle, an hourglass. Like people have fun with the nomenclature…” (42:38)
• Entry-Level Crisis: Risk of diminished entry-level employment; mid-level roles may become more prominent as experience and judgment gain value (41:49–44:39).

7. Democratization, Self-Service, and Potential Downsides

• Rise of Self-Service Legal Tech: Direct-to-consumer legal services (e.g., online prenuptial agreements), and client “pre-research” with AI, are already emerging and could disrupt traditional firm-client dynamics (33:02–35:38).
  • Russell: “This is happening in prenups… you fill out a questionnaire and… a prenup that's maybe been lawyer reviewed… poof, bada bing. It returns…” (35:40)
• Risk of Frivolous Litigation: Easier access to AI-fueled legal action could increase frivolous lawsuits, stressing an already overburdened system (36:55–38:17).
  • Russell: “It's gonna result in many more frivolous cases jamming up our justice system, which works so well as it is. Exactly.” (38:04)

8. AI Adoption Beyond Law: What’s Next

• Legal as a Bellwether: Because law is document- and language-heavy, it has quickly adopted generative AI; similar disruption is expected in consulting, accounting, and other professional services (27:08–27:47).
  • Kantrowitz: “...it's words. Semantic search like it's sort of the low hanging fruit for generative AI.” (27:08)

9. Legal Tech Market & Startup Landscape

• Harvey as the Goliath: With a reported $8 billion valuation, Harvey and competitors (Lagora, etc.) are racing to become legal’s AI platform of choice amid VC investment frenzy (49:30–53:15).
  • Russell: “Harvey arguably, you know, fired the, the starting pistol on this legal tech arms race and then it invited a tsunami of competition.” (50:41)
• Commoditization Threat: Lack of technical moat—most tools built over similar AI models; differentiation hinges on integration, brand, support, and “white glove” service (51:57–53:15).
  • Russell: “There is no technical moat. And so these firms have to compete on brand. They have to compete on their ability to kind of mold to the client…” (52:43)

10. Startups as “Wrappers” and Law Firm Adoption

• Are They Just ‘Wrappers’ for AI?: Some argue these startups are mere “wrappers” over models like ChatGPT, but firms still pay a premium for specialized, secure, feature-rich products (53:36–55:40).
  • Russell: “The law firm is such a discerning client that they're willing to pay the premium for the packaging… It's in the partnerships with those digital law libraries…” (54:17)

11. Looking Forward: The Next Few Years

• Hybrid Models and Human Value: Expect continuation of the billable hour for high-value work, growth of flat-fee services, more tech-enabled solo practitioners, and an acceleration towards “leaner,” possibly more rewarding legal firms (56:02–56:55).
  • Russell: “I think lawyers are going to charge higher and higher premiums for their eyeballs on work…” (56:16)
• Law as a Precursor: Legal’s AI transformation is forecast to repeat in other professional services (consulting, accounting, etc.), making law a “canary in the coal mine” for knowledge work’s future (56:55–57:19).
  • Kantrowitz: “...if what we imagine will happen in the legal field does happen…it will cascade and we'll see it in many other professional services disciplines.” (57:49)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On legacy fears:
  “That case struck fear in the hearts of lawyers across America and became the nightmare scenario that I think colored a lot of public perception…”
  — Melia Russell, 02:41
• On modern AI’s impact:
  “It's compressing…weeks of work and basically condensing it into a prompt.”
  — Alex Kantrowitz, 06:56
• On billable hours:
  “Software that promises to save them time. That math doesn't math for them when the risk is that it cuts into their revenue…”
  — Melia Russell, 07:35
• On client demand:
  “Lawyers are realizing if they don't adopt it, their clients will find other firms that do.”
  — Melia Russell, 11:04
• On law firm structure:
  “I've also heard a rectangle. I've heard a rectangle, an hourglass. Like people have fun with the nomenclature…”
  — Melia Russell, 42:38
• On the training problem:
  “The question haunting, I think firm leadership is if we hire fewer early career lawyers. Where do the mid career lawyers come from?”
  — Melia Russell, 44:48
• On startup threat:
  “There is no technical moat. And so these firms have to compete on brand. They have to compete on their ability to mold to the client and deliver product that feels almost white labeled for them.”
  — Melia Russell, 52:43
• On legal as a bellwether:
  “Legal is a precursor to AI swallowing professional services as an industry. And it's a bumpy road, but you know, lawyers do their homework and I think that they'll net out looking pretty smart for doing so.”
  — Melia Russell, 56:55

Timestamps: Highlights by Segment

• [02:41] — Initial case that fueled lawyer anxiety about AI and hallucinations
• [06:03–06:56] — AI transforming document review and research, condensing weeks of work
• [07:35–09:08] — Threat to the billable hour & business model adaptations
• [10:16–11:13] — Clients drive adoption; demand efficiency from lawyers
• [14:02–14:45] — LexisNexis & Westlaw as data "grounding" to suppress hallucinations
• [17:59–20:10] — Personal responsibility and lawyer training for AI oversight
• [20:58–22:12] — Seasoned attorneys’ edge using AI
• [33:02–36:55] — Direct-to-consumer legal tech and democratization (e.g., online prenups)
• [36:55–38:17] — Risk of increased frivolous lawsuits
• [41:49–44:39] — Changing law firm structure; from pyramid to diamond
• [49:30–53:15] — The legal tech startup race, valuations, and competitive landscape
• [54:17–55:40] — AI wrappers vs. specialized legal AI tools
• [56:02–56:55] — Predictions for future legal field structure and broader industry impact

Final Thoughts

This episode provides a rich, nuanced exploration of the AI revolution in law—spotlighting both transformation and tension. From legal research to client expectations, professional education to industry economics, the conversation is a critical preview of how generative AI will reshape knowledge work everywhere.