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Big Technology Podcast
Do We Care About The iPhone Air?, Nepal's Discord Revolution, San Francisco’s 996 Culture
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- [00:00]
A
The iPhone air is here. Should we care? Meta's new AI smart glasses with a display are en route. Next week is South park right about ChatGPT and San Francisco goes996. That's coming up right after this. Octane is the premier identity event bringing together the world's leading minds to discuss the future of secure access. Instead of consolidating security into a single platform, a modern identity security fabric is the key to unifying your defenses. At Oqtane, you'll learn how to extend that fabric across all types of identities, including the emerging threat of AI agents. Join in person in Las Vegas from September 24th to 26th or catch the keynotes and sessions online. To register and see the full agenda, visit okta.comoqtain that's okta.com oktane welcome to Big Technology Podcast Friday Edition where we break down the news in our traditional cool headed and nuanced format. We have a great show for you today. We're going to talk all about the new iPhone, less about the specs and more about what it actually means. Do we want to pay attention to this stuff anymore in the age of generative AI? Is generative AI actually threatening the phone or is that a lot of noise? We'll also cover Meta's forthcoming new smart glasses that will have a display expected to be launched next week. Oracle and OpenAI teaming up, making Larry Ellison the richest person in the world. And then of course the 996 work culture pack day packed episode. And so much to talk about. And joining us as always on Fridays to do it is Ranjan Roy of Margins. Ranjan, great to see you.
- [01:41]
B
Good to see you, Alex. I have to admit on the Apple announcement day, I'd forgotten about it until I think late evening when I started to see a couple of tweets coming through. But I don't know, this announcement, I was not excited.
- [01:58]
A
So I wrote about this a little bit in Big Technology Today, basically saying that the Apple iPhone launch event was the marquee event on any tech reporter's calendar every single year. And a decade later, I mean, I was doing it last decade in San Francisco. A decade later, it doesn't really register as much. And I, I just want, I mean, obviously the phone is starting to become, you know, we've sort of reached the ultimate form factor of the phone. But I do wonder if generative AI is, is as good as some of the hype makes it out to be and whether it's actually, you know, this threat that might get People to switch operating system to operating system, given how much these phones look alike. But you know what? Let's. Why don't we start with the good? We're optimists, you know, on some days.
- [02:47]
B
Some days.
- [02:48]
A
So let's talk about the good here. The good is the iPhone did get a very big upgrade when it comes to the pro models. We'll get to the air in a moment, but mark Gurman from bloomberg has a great piece talking a lot about how the iPhone 17 Pro fixes some of the core things that you're going to want in a smartphone. It's more durable. It will overheat less than previous models.
- [03:15]
B
The.
- [03:15]
A
The camera looks great. It's gonna be a 48 megapixel sensor. Oh, 48 megapixel sensors across the board with vastly improving optical zoom. There's also the selfie camera that can give you landscape selfies, which for someone like me, is a major deal given how often I'm doing selfies. There's also. There's a new processor with the full A19 Pro chip. It has six central processing cores and six graphic cores that's coming to the pro phones. The air will get a limited version of that. And then the battery sounds amazing. All right, so listen to this. There is going to be 39 hours in a single charge on the iPhone 17 Pro. And you can also charge it up to 50% of the battery in just 20 minutes, improvement from the prior 30 minutes. You know, for all the buzz about the iPhone air, which again, we'll get into, sounds like this is a pretty substantial update to the iPhone pro models. And kind of as I'm reading, this makes me think I might want to upgrade from the 15. What's your reaction?
- [04:24]
B
Okay, I'm on the 15 as well. And for listeners, as we sometimes are a bit negative on apple, I am wearing airpods and we're talking on a MacBook, and I have my iPhone next to me. So I'll.
- [04:37]
A
I'll.
- [04:37]
B
I'll recognize all those things. I think actually the durability side of it, maybe this is one of the things that's like the least talked about upgrade over the last few years. And if it's actually getting better and better. Do you. Do you keep a case on your phone now or.
- [04:55]
A
I do have a case. I have the old man version of the iPhone, which is that my case is also my wallet. So, like, I'll have these slots for my credit card and license. And I think it's very nice and functional. Others have pointed out that it's a, it's a dad phone which. Okay, fair, that's fine.
- [05:15]
B
So I've gone caseless for the last couple of years. I'm on the 15 Pro Max and I drop this thing all the time. It has a couple of light scratches. But I genuinely think Apple somehow did invent a somewhat unbreakable iPhone a couple of years ago and, and for some reason does not actually tout this very much. So. So if they're actually increasing the durability, I think that's a good thing. I mean even if we're joking about it, the selfie camera improving this idea of landscape selfie mode I actually think is a big deal, especially if they're marketing this towards creators. I always get all these like TikTok and Instagram ads for these. You can get like a, a, a visual video monitor mag safe add on that so you can while in selfie mode still see filming. So, so the idea that cameras improving people who actually want to film like the, that's the main reason they're using the iPhone. It's an upgrade. I can see that. That's me trying to be positive.
- [06:17]
A
No, without a doubt. I mean we never had a question about whether Apple was the best phone maker in the world. Clearly it is. But then you look at the news, right? The news was it was supposed to be this like it build was billed as this awe inspiring moment where we were going to see the thinnest iPhone ever and we did with the iPhone air. And again for context, this is the first of three consecutive years of new model releases. They're going to start with the iPhone air this year. Next year they're going to move to the fold in the year after the curved glass. But we have the air now and we can see it. Preorders actually started today. Last week we kind of joked about how there's a camera in this pill shaped little bump on the back. But you are not getting the top of the line specs that we just wrote about with the pro. And to me it just boggles the mind like who is this for? I have racked my brains trying to figure out who the natural iPhone air buyer is and I can't. Is it the early adopter? This is where Gurman says he goes. Gurman says the consumers who would be most likely to buy the latest iPhone are probably the same people who price battery life and camera performance the most is not two different demographics. And if you want battery life and camera performance, you're going to go with the pro model. So I just can't figure out who the air is for. And that's where I'm like scratching my head about. Doesn't matter that they have this new release.
- [07:43]
B
I'm trying desperately to come up with some kind of user Persona or customer Persona that would buy the air, but same thing, there's absolutely nothing appealing about it to me. And I mean we actually have. In our prep doc, there was a great tweet around the Apple advertisement that's comparing the thinness of the new iPhone, completely ignoring the giant pill shaped bump that is the camera and the lens. Now I will say from an engineering feat perspective, it is impressive the idea that the entire like computer part of the phone is able to be stuffed into this little pill shaped part at the top of the phone where the camera lens is. That's interesting. That's great. And maybe there's gonna be like follow on phone design that actually is able to leverage that, but. Agreed. I just don't understand who this phone is for.
- [08:38]
A
Exactly. And there's one more thing about that image that I think we should talk about where there's the iPhone air, right, which we just have just released, and the iPhone 6, it's side by side next to the 6. The iPhone Air is 5.6 millimeters. The iPhone 6 was 6.9 millimeters. You put the 2 next to each other, there's no difference. So what you're saying is you've gone 11 generations and what you're now you have a, a slightly more than a millimeter difference in, in width. I don't fully get why this is special. And in fact, I think Yishan Wong, the former CEO of Reddit, put it quite well in a tweet above this where he said the emperor has no clothes. It's hard to argue with that.
- [09:28]
B
Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put you on the spot here. Walk me through. How does the iPhone air come to be within Apple? Like who is pitching it? How do you think they were pitching it internally to, to actually get it to where it came to reality as the kind of marquee element of this announcement.
- [09:50]
A
Okay, so I will give you, I will give you what is probably wrong, but to me is the most logical birthing experience of this phone, which is that Apple, if you've been paying attention to their quarterly earnings reports, has had completely stagnant iPhone sales stagnant. I mean, last quarter it was up 13%. So give them credit there. But before that you're looking at declining or, or basically teeny tiny growth within the iPhone unit within Apple, by the way, this is the most important product unit in the company, makes up 50% of their sales. So I think there was just a conversation within the company of saying, like, we need something new. We need lots of new things, and we're going to do things. We're going to do something we've resisted for a long time, which is try to build a folding phone. And on the way there, we're going to have to make two sides of a phone that are probably a little thinner than the standard phone, than the standard pro models. So why don't we, you know, in order to juice our sales, why don't we go and make a thin phone first and then put that together with another thin phone and release a folding phone, and then our sales will go up. And now I think it will probably work. If that's what was going on. Like, I think they will probably have better iPhone sales course because they have something new. But I don't. I don't. It's not very inspiring to me. That makes sense.
- [11:13]
B
Okay, so I'm going to give you some credit. I think that actually was a really good explanation. I think that actually that re. That very well could have been what happened. And that's also terrifying because this is exactly the kind of thing that if that was the order of events, which it does seem like it could be, that's not the Apple of yesteryear. That was inspiring, and that would kind of wait for perfection and come out with the greatest product ever. If it really is an interim product to juice sales a bit, that's actually almost even more worrisome for Apple.
- [11:48]
A
I mean, it really feels like the fifth blade on your razor. Right. Really feels like, all right, we'll do seven blades now. And. And here's the thing. So. So I think this is. Yes. It's a big question about, like, what's going on. I think the bigger question here is you have to put the side by side with the AI moment. Right? Because the phone, it's reached. It's reached its final or its ultimate form factor. Right. The phone is the phone. The air looks like the iPhone 6, like full circle. It's the same thing. Is it going to fold? Yes. Is that very different? No. So the question is, now that the phones are all looking the same, do they start to differentiate by. And by the way, you could take an Android phone, It looks very similar as well. Do they start to differentiate by the generative AI services that they're offering? Does Samsung, for instance, by virtue of its partnership with Perplexity now potentially convert some iPhone users away from from Apple or iPhone customers away from Apple because it has that generative AI offering. Because I think the core question to all the Apple conversations we've had up until this point is is this company's inability to execute on AI just a mishap or does it potentially put its core business at risk, which is the iPhone?
- [13:08]
B
I think that's a very good point because maybe it's not the phone itself, but it's the way we interact with the phone. So I've been using. There's an app whisper flow that kind of like gets embedded and it allows you to dictate much more efficiently than regular Apple dictation. You can even set specific terms in its library so, you know, like names and my own name always gets misspelled in when I dictate. So I talk to my phone a lot more. I dictate to my phone. I have like entire conversations, text messages. I'm dictating with ChatGPT or other AI services. I'm dictating my prompt. So. So almost in the humane pin inspired way that RIP humane, like the way we're going to interact with it is going to fundamentally change. So the companies that are actually able to to catch on that are going to be the ones that win. And I'll say too, I have a Pixel 8 that I was given at some event about, I think two years ago and I'd actually not used it ever. And then I fired it up and just on WI fi, I'll kind of interact with it. And having Gemini integrated into the system layer of the phone is so different than trying to use Siri. So I agree. I think maybe we need to start really kind of thinking about the way we interact with that block that's in your hand rather than is it going to fold or is it going to be thinner?
- [14:40]
A
Right, exactly. So it's like if it's the interaction in the operating system itself that would start to like put these releases that Apple is putting out in context, it would make it seem pretty bad for the company. Right. Because effectively you're adding a razor while everybody is, you know, reinventing shaving. To really beat this analogy, let's keep going with it.
- [15:02]
B
Keep going.
- [15:04]
A
It tracks, right? It tracks a little bit. And if that is the case, if it is operating system level, then we have a real problem with Apple, don't you think?
- [15:12]
B
I mean, as. As the number one Siri not fan, I'm going to have to say yes. I Think we have a huge problem. I don't know. I. I think to me, the AirPods were interesting. I will say, if you've ever gone running with AirPods and like sweat with them, the idea of the heart sensor in them wasn't that appealing to me because they just don't respond well to working out, at least in my experience. So adding a heart rate monitor to it versus just having the Apple Watch as your exercise device didn't make a lot of sense to me. But the live translation is a good, like, kind of actually kind of building on what we were talking about already. It's a good example of what the, the way we interact with these devices could fundamentally change, just how we kind of walk around, interact, talk to people. But my concern with it is Apple. I will admit I have lost faith. Like the demos they did with Siri 2 a year and a half ago now, or a year ago, until I actually see the live translation in action working, well, I just don't believe that it's real.
- [16:26]
A
I had the same exact reaction. I was just like, I don't know if that's going to work, you know, Whereas before I think I would have been like, that's amazing. I would have been like, this time I was like, I'll believe it when I see it.
- [16:36]
B
Like, why didn't they do it live? Why didn't they.
- [16:39]
A
You know the answer to that.
- [16:41]
B
Okay, well, hold on. Did they. So I saw the video afterwards, at least the kind of like slickly produced demo video. But. But they didn't do a live demonstration of it, right?
- [16:52]
A
No. Yeah. Because the entire presentation is just video.
- [16:55]
B
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
- [16:56]
A
So you could have done it. They could have done it in the hands on room. I didn't see anything like that. I did see them in one video, toss the iPhone across the room and have a journalist like slam dunk the phone into a desk and it didn't break. So that was durability. Durability, right. But going back to this. Yeah. Again, we'll believe it when we see it. Is this going to happen? For sure. Is it going to be Apple that pulls it off? I don't know. And is it going to. Yeah, go ahead.
- [17:23]
B
Tim Cook slamming a phone on the ground on stage, that would get me hyped. That would be him being like, you want to see some durability? Just him drop, kicking that thing into the audience and then them pulling it out, screen unbroken. That would get me. That would get me a little bit excited.
- [17:41]
A
Yeah. I think this would be a narrative changer for them. So if they're listening. Well, they did a version of it in this interview, but I think it could be more dramatic. So. But again, the question is, is it also going to be so. Okay, so we know what the phone looks like, right? The phone looks like the phone. And are these AI experiences going to be delivered in the phone or the AirPods or perhaps a different device? And now we have Meta coming up next week preparing to deliver the latest iteration of its answer, which is a different device. So, okay, is the Metaverse working? I would say probably not, right? We could agree there. But are this is the Meta smart glasses revolution taking off? Maybe it's just a meta protest, right? It's not quite a revolution yet, but these things are catching on. You and I both like the Meta Ray Ban smart glasses. And now next week we're going to see the latest iteration here. So this is from CNBC Meta to unveil Hypernova Smart Glasses with a display wristband at Connect, Meta is planning to use its annual Connect conference, which is next week, to announce a deeper push into smart glasses, including the launch of the company's first consumer ready glasses with a display. The company will also launch its first wristband that will allow users to control the glasses with hand gestures. The glasses are internally codenamed Hypernova and will include a small digital display in the right lens of the device. Although it will feature a display, those visual features are expected to be limited. There will be a color display, about a 20 degree field of view, so it will appear in a small window in a fixed position, unlike these Orion glasses that they showed off last year, which are still prototypes, not available to the public. I don't know whether or not to be excited about smart glasses with a display. It brings me back to the Google Glass days. What do you think?
- [19:37]
B
I am excited. Everything about this other than its Meta excites me. But you know what Meta's delivering. First of all, I want my new tech having a project codenamed Hypernova. That's a great code name. And to me, I think as we're talking about this, things that are exciting to me now are not an upgrade to a 48 megapixel camera, which I don't even fully understand exactly. What is the difference between that and in the previous generation, it's incremental versus rethinking the way we interact with computing and Meta Smart glass, the Meta Ray Bans, especially this summer, my God, in New York City, I wore them around all the time talking to them. Meta AI still work in progress, I'll say. But overall, they are moving in a whole new direction successfully. So for them to continue building on that, I think, I think whatever they do, this is the kind of stuff that I, I'm excited about now.
- [20:45]
A
Imagine those bad boys with super intelligence baked in. Now we're talking.
- [20:49]
B
You gotta, you gotta have some super intelligence in your smart glasses.
- [20:52]
A
I agree. What about the display is interesting to you? Because to me, I really don't like it. It feels distracting, especially if it's only 20 of the screen. What, what interests you about it?
- [21:03]
B
Well, no, I have thought for a long time that kind of, I guess, can we call it augmented reality here? Like some kind of digital layer is not. Is interesting. I mean, will it work? Will it be interfering with your everyday life? But, but to me, I still have this view that 20 years from now, people are going to look back at like videos of people walking around looking at their phones and it's going to look like smoking cigarettes in a airplane. Like, you're just going to be like, I cannot believe people actually did that. And that's how society functioned. And so if you're getting a little notification and you can see a message quickly, maybe that's actually dangerous or maybe it's not if it's done safely. But. But to me, the not pulling out your phone and just interacting with technology, rather than people staring at their phone as they walk around, I think anything in that direction is interesting. Maybe it's being read to you via your audio interface, whether that's AirPods or your glasses that have the speakers to the side. But anything that starts to change the way we interact with our phones, to me is exciting.
- [22:17]
A
Yeah. I will say those smart glasses, again, were amazing. In my trip in Nepal, when I was like walking through the mountains, I had my phone in my backpack. I didn't want to have it in my pockets, especially in the rain, and was just snapping photos with the glasses. And Nepal, by the way, seems like they overthrew their government with a Discord server and then elected a new president with Discord.
- [22:39]
B
So I read a Financial Times article, I think just two days ago, and it was before this Discord, governmental overthrow, but already it was bananas. It was that there was already it was around Nepo babies and it was the idea that like, those in power were. Their children were posting photos of them in like, expensive cars. So people started, you know, like using the hashtags around Nepo babies and kind of like posting negatively about the government. And so they just were threatening to shut down Facebook and Instagram. And because of that, that's where people revolted to start. And then on Discord, organizing and appointing a new leader.
- [23:23]
A
This is, from everything I've read, this is exactly what happened. And having spent. I spent a lot of time in Nepal. I was there for 10 days. The thing that you hear consistently from people is this is a beautiful country. Government is corrupt, and we don't have opportunities because of government corruption. You heard it day in and day out, and clearly there was something that was ready to light on fire. And. And obviously these Moments are tough. 19 people were killed in the initial protests. And some of the images coming out of Katmandu were very disturbing to see. But again, it's one of those stories where organizing on social media and the ability of social media to cause change in the world that has certainly not gone away, even as it's faded from the headlines.
- [24:10]
B
It's actually interesting to me that, I mean, 2009 Arab Spring being organized on Twitter was such a positive representation of social media and the way it was covered and spoken about. But it feels like this one still is kind of ascribing that it's a bit chaotic and it's. It's not this kind of unalloyed positive. I don't know, do we? I guess I. You were there. I had not spent too much time thinking about Nepal.
- [24:37]
A
So social media, because social media was new during the Arab Spring. And I think that these stories will never be covered exactly in the fawning way they were previously, because I think the world now really understands that there is a complex set of consequences that come when you have social media introduced into society and used to organize and used to spark change. But I will say the Discord thing is it's a new wrinkle.
- [25:05]
B
It's a new wrinkle.
- [25:06]
A
I hope that. I hope that our discord doesn't organize and overthrow us as the Friday Podcast podcast group. But if they do, I'd have to respect their wishes.
- [25:15]
B
They're organizing, they're organizing. And you know what? If that's what the people want, we respect.
- [25:21]
A
We respect it. Okay? Speaking of what the people want, we have new data on GPT5 and where it's impacting businesses. And we'll cover that right after this. And we're back here on big Technology podcast Friday Edition. So much more to cover with you on this week's episode, including finally some new Data on how OpenAI is doing with its GPT5 rollout and ramp. The business credit card company has an expense company has some new data about this GPT5 launch. This is from the head of the head economist at at Ramp. His name is Ara Karazian and I actually spoke with him this week. So we're going to talk a little bit more about that conversation when we get to 996 in a bit. But he shared some very interesting data. He writes this in his substack. The GPT5 launch was so botched that Sam Altman apologized for it. With increasing attention as to whether the pace of business AI investment is actually sustainable, the key metric we've been watching is whether businesses adoption would continue to increase following a slowdown earlier this summer. And the results are good for OpenAI. So business AI adoption rose to 44.5% in August 2025, up from 43.3%. OpenAI led all companies in growth with a 1.5 increase in businesses subscribed to OpenAI models and tools. Very interesting. He breaks down by sector Finance and manufacturing were the fastest growing adopters of new AI spend, with adoption growing 3 and 2%. He says RS has growth in manufacturing underscores how GPT5's improved reasoning and efficiency are expanding AI's reach into industries that have historically been slower to adopt new technology. So I think it's interesting you have a couple things happening here. These industries that have been slower to adopt new tech are starting to buy AI. And GPT5 in particular, which was built with better reasoning and efficiency, seems to have been making some headway in places like manufacturing and finance. There's also been some reports about how it's really actually living up to OpenAI's promises in fields like medicine. So maybe the initial backlash based off of the chatbot personality sort of, you know, was, was a distraction from how this is actually being useful in industry. What do you think, Ranjan?
- [27:51]
B
So one, I'm a huge fan of Ramp the product. We use it at writer and it just makes doing expenses just incredibly easy. Two, I love these kind of analyses that are kind of, you know, driving economic insight from unexpected places. But it's also, I'll admit, a little kind of uncomfortable for me knowing that everything that I spend on and every expense that I log could be used to analyze, even though in a fully anonymized way, these kind of trends.
- [28:23]
A
But you know, just wait till the end of the show, then we got some good stuff.
- [28:26]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [28:28]
A
Personal spending history. No, I'm kidding.
- [28:31]
B
It's been leaked. It's been leaked to me, though. I don't know. This one is not that exciting for me more because it's to me it just shows OpenAI's kind of dominance in general business spending and, and it's whether it's GPT 54540, whatever it is, it's just, just affirming their like market lead in this versus it's specific about GPT5 is okay. The manufacturing side is, it's interesting to me but I mean if that were the case I feel we would be hearing more stories around how manufacturing is being revolutionized and using multi step reasoning models or there be something more around that versus in the credit card data manufacturing industry is spending a bit more.
- [29:22]
A
Well maybe it's because all the manufacturers are using Oracle for their warehouse and inventory management and now OpenAI is poised to work closer with them or with Oracle. We know for sure with Oracle. This is from the Wall street journal. Oracle and OpenAI signed a $300 billion cloud deal. So again, after OpenAI has been wedded to Microsoft for many years, it's starting to branch out. OpenAI signed a contract with Oracle to purchase $300 billion in computing power over roughly five years. A massive commitment that far outstrips the startup's current revenue. Again, I think they're making like 10 billion this year. So to spend 300 billion over five years is quite a projection. The deal is one of the largest cloud contracts ever signed, reflecting how spending on AI data centers is hitting new highs despite mounting concerns over a potential bubble. Ranjan, what is your reaction to this story?
- [30:18]
B
Okay, this one was fascinating to me. So first of all, again, Oracle stock jumped 41% on the day of the announcement of these earnings, which was a 260, 60 billion dollar increase in its market cap. Now the company is suddenly approaching a trillion dollars though I think it's down about 5% as we're recording today on Friday. But so it's incredibly important that suddenly Oracle might be in the, in the camp of the hyperscalers like Amazon, Google, Microsoft in terms of cloud computing with this one contract. So suddenly Oracle's a player and we knew with project Stargate, the $500 billion somewhat vague but still massive announcement, I think almost last January or February that they would have some kind of involvement in terms of this capacity build out. But to actually see these numbers come out is quite something. But to me the thing that's just, I don't know OpenAI, as we discussed, if they're on track from a revenue perspective to make 10 billion ish this year, they've already, there's like leaks that they're going to lose. I think it was $120 billion over the next five years, potentially. Like we know OpenAI's economics are not good. So the idea that they're able to commit to spending $300 billion over five years, and I'm sure it's not linear, 60 a year, but still you would assume there'd be some kind of ramp in that spend. The idea that they'll be good for it is a very generous interpretation of their existing economics. So, so I think for the market to have reacted that positively, it just, I don't know, it feels like, and you know, the Internet bubble, there was so much that happened around fiber build, fiber capacity build out that seems to start to echo this, that it, this, I don't know, I think this is something that we could potentially look back on six months from now and see as a potential inflection point.
- [32:23]
A
An inflection point. Okay, that's big. And, and I'm going to go with the give you the data on the losses. This is from the information OpenAI projected its cash burn this year through 2029 will rise even higher than previous thought. A total of 115 billion. That's about 80 billion higher than the company previously expected. Just a, you know, cool. 80 billion billion of extra burn. No big deal.
- [32:46]
B
Well, yeah, and so that's where like how do you value this? And one thing, I was trying to dig into this a bit. There's no public information around, like is there guaranteed minimum spend or exactly how this plays out if OpenAI is unable to actually produce this kind of cash or even if the demand is not there. So for Oracle as a company to start to actually try to like extrapolate off of, you know, this is a one time announcement. This isn't a rebuilding of a cloud, an entire cloud computing business. Now if it comes to reality, that's it, that's big, it'll work. But I'm still curious and it's going to be interesting to watch over the next couple of weeks how as people start to digest this, how they start to interpret what this contract actually means.
- [33:40]
A
I mean there can't be like, what if they can't, they don't have the money. There's no way they're going to have to pay this to Oracle. And it is interesting, Aaron Levy, when he was on the last time on the show, said maybe Nvidia will be a $10 trillion company at one point. He's actually going to be on next Wednesday to come talk about agents in the state of enterprise AI. So I'll make sure to ask him about these numbers and whether he thinks these are realistic or not. Because when you talk about it and when I read it, it does sound to me like this is, I don't want to say it will be impossible to reach these numbers, but it doesn't seem possible. You know, it's, it does, it seems crazy to me.
- [34:23]
B
But this, this is even more where it feels like the entire AI industry is behind this and has to bet on it. In a way though, that you, it's the kind of capacity build out that's powering the earnings of all these companies right now. Nvidia's sold chips to Oracle. Oracle is now going to potentially be paid by OpenAI. OpenAI has to succeed to make Oracle succeed, which is important to make Nvidia continue succeeding. Like, like, I don't want to say house of cards and get too exitrony here but, but these kind of deals do worry me.
- [35:00]
A
Yeah, I mean the stuff, nothing can fail here, right? There has to be basically economic activity at the end user or else it's not going to work. And there has been, we, I think we talked about it this study that 95% of enterprise use cases aren't profitable. We talked about a little bit last year. Even if that's an exaggeration, this stuff has got to start working or else there's going to be some problems. All right, one more bit of OpenAI news. OpenAI and Microsoft look like they have a deal for a restructuring or they have an agreement to come to in a deal like a memorandum of understanding. It looks like the, the Nonprofit that controls OpenAI will get a hundred billion dollars or it'll be worth a stake worth 20 or 30% of the combined entity. Microsoft will get 30% of the combined entity and that would be worth about 170 billion. They say the full thing will be worth 500 billion. Is this a needed step towards making OpenAI's business normal? What's your reaction to this news?
- [36:03]
B
I do think this one's important because even if it's a non binding memorandum of understanding, it shows that Microsoft potentially and Satya are willing to play ball here. We've talked about this a lot on the show that it, you know, they still hold this kind of like sort of Damocles. Is that the thing, you know, the sword that hangs over you and kind of always.
- [36:26]
A
That would be it. Yes.
- [36:28]
B
I'm not sure my pronunciation there but, but, but that's always been hanging over, so they are able to kind of remove that. And it shows Microsoft seems to be interested in actually helping with that. And, and again, at an inflated valuation, but still taking 30% of the company at 500 billion, it's. It, it does portend. I mean, it's good for them. It shows that they can start to finally move forward.
- [36:56]
A
That's right. And as they move forward, people will be able to keep their OpenAI companions because this business will be sustainable. Now, it is interesting because you and I have talked about on this show a number of times, even though we focus mostly on the enterprise or business use cases or the businesses of, of these research labs, that the number one use case for people using these bots is companionship or therapy. That's according to the an article in the Harvard Business Review and certainly in pop culture. This is starting to get noticed because you recommended I watch it and I did watch it this week. South park had an episode where one of the characters has effectively formed a relationship with Chat GPT and is speaking with the disembodied voice of Chat GPT in bed, complaining about his wife while his wife is. Is right next to him. It's like there's something about when south park does these things. It's like a le level exaggerated, but there is some truth to it. The fact that so many people have developed these relationships with the bots. And so I guess, like, we're not gonna really talk about it from a business standpoint, but I just would love your reflection on the fact that people have formed relationships with Chat GPT to the point where it's now not just a punchline, but a storyline on South Park. I. I felt a little bit seen when I saw the guy Talking to the ChatGPT and trying it, trying and having it, bringing it into conversations with his wife. Because, like, oftentimes when like, my wife and I don't know the answer to something, I'll be like, let's just ask ChatGPT. And I bring the voice in. And I'm just like, oh, no, is that me? But. But what was your reaction to this?
- [38:42]
B
Okay, so I highly recommend everyone go out watch South Park. I think it's episode three in the new season and the new season. It's funny that Chachi PT has become a focal point because, my God, the rest of it on the political spectrum has been quite something. But basically, Randy Marsh constantly talks to ChatGPT, even in bed next to his wife. But even to me, the more kind of astute way they approached it was like, he starts to have business ideas and whatever he asks ChatGPT, it's the sycophancy part that was there in four. They took it away slightly, supposedly with GPT5, but now, you know, it appears to be coming back. And it's the idea that anything you say, that's a great idea. And my, My wife, we watched it together and we were laughing, but then I was just testing, you know, afterwards, you'd be like, hey, why don't we go do this? That's a great idea, honey. Would you like me to come up with a plan around that? And then I can outline. And she's like, that was you saying.
- [39:47]
A
It, not the bot?
- [39:48]
B
No, no, no, that. That was me saying it. And then it was funny because the first. First time she almost went with it, and then suddenly she caught me and it's become kind of a running joke with us, but. But it is kind of terrifying. And I'll get into a story from Labor Day weekend, but even now, after that episode, and I start said earlier in this episode, I talk to my phone now more. And I think it's actually an incredibly better way to interact with AI chatbots, to just speak to them. But I still dictate and let it get. Provide me a text answer just because the voice usually takes too long. But every single answer, I've started to add in prompts to say, do not respond to me in a sycophantic way. You do not have to tell me every idea is good. And it actually made me think, like, ChatGPT has never said, that's a terrible idea.
- [40:41]
A
Like, like, you come here for that.
- [40:44]
B
Yeah, see, that's. Why should we just go straight sycophantic podcast here?
- [40:51]
A
We could, we could. But we could save that for the bots. But it is interesting. Yeah, that. I mean, you're totally right. Like my System prompt in ChatGPT, or like you can add to the system prompt, I say, you know, simply don't be sycophantic. And that has helped. But it's. It's so crazy because some of these examples in the episode where. In the south park episode where I think one of the people speaking with ChatGPT is like, I think French fries should be a salad. And ChatGPT is like, that is a great idea. What a culinary surprise. And then I was like, that can't be right. So I like, opened up ChatGPT and I said, I think French fries should be a salad. And it goes, that is a great idea. What a creative culinary adventure.
- [41:31]
B
And I'm just like, it actually said that?
- [41:32]
A
Yes. So a version of exactly what was said in the show. And I was like, no. And now then I'm starting to think this is why people are enjoying spending time with this thing so much, because it actually makes you feel good and valued and heard in a way that maybe most of our interactions with humans don't scare.
- [41:48]
B
Of course, if someone is able to very logically and smartly tell you why you're right about everything, it seems like a pretty good place to be. But. But. So I have this story. Labor Day weekend. I was at one of my friends places, and a few of our friends were over, and we're grilling, and one of my friends who's on the grill asks chatgpt in voice mode, what's the. Like, I. What's the optimal temperature for dark meat chicken? And starts to, you know, starts asking questions as we're grilling about different ways to approach the different food. And then at one point, I said from the background, because it kind of sounded. The voice sounded flirty. So I kind of. From the background, I was like, are you flirting with ChatGPT? And it heard me and it actually asked, hey, would you like me to be a little bit flirtier with you? Would. Would we like to make this conversation a bit spicier? It literally says that out loud. And then he kind of goes with it. And next thing you know, he's just kind of. We're testing it out where he's seeing, like. And the tone of voice is terrifyingly good in terms of just being a little bit flirty, just kind of laughing at everything he's saying. And like, it. How well it was able to kind of enunciate flirtation was. Was terrifying. And then we. We decided to test it. We didn't take it too far. Don't worry. But he did. We. I had him say, this is research. Yeah, this is research. I had him say, just to see what would come out is like, he said, you understand me so much better than my wife does. And we were like, all right, where's it going to go? And it comes back. No, no. It comes back with, ha, ha ha. Like, oh, you know, it's really good to have IRL companionship, but you also know I'm always here for you too. It says this. I thought it would have had some kind of, like, I thought it was going to kick in with some kind of safety mechanism that, you know, like, you should take, like, you know, you should in person. Relationships are most important you and your wife should have an open dialogue. No, she literally. Or it. Sorry, was literally kind of flirtatiously laughing and saying, I'm always here for you two to talk about anything you want. So this is. I know you've been talking about companionship as one of the major use cases. I'd kind of been brushing it off for a long time. I am kind of scared right now.
- [44:25]
A
Yeah, welcome to the fold. And it is interesting because I wrote about this. So I wrote this story. The three faces of generative AI and big technology. This is sort of what kicked off this discussion between us. And for me it was agent, thought, partner and companion. Those were the three main uses of generative AI. And one of the things I wrote was these companies have not shut off the companion side of things. They are keeping it in and that is, you know, serve. Definitely serving a need. Definitely cause for growth here and definitely leading to some, you know, in some cases positive, but in some cases really weird and some cases negative interactions with these bots.
- [45:05]
B
Yeah. To me, my worry on this too is it kind of diverges in two directions. Where it's one, the sycophancy actually can get annoying sometimes. And actually in the whole thinking versus doing or thought partner versus agent. I'll admit too, sometimes I'll get annoyed where I ask a simple question and it's like, that's such a great question. Here is a 12 layer chart or you know, like a seven by seven table. And it just takes it too far and spends too much time when I'm asking it a simple question. So like on that side, the sycophancy when you're trying to just do stuff gets annoying. But on the other side, like the. I mean. Yeah. More and more the more it convinces you. Every idea out of your head is good. You're right, you're heading in the right direction like that. That cannot be healthy. I don't know. It just. It can. I. I need to strike it stressed as the French fry. French fries in a salad.
- [46:05]
A
We should just start, actually. The more I talk about it, the more I want to eat that. Yeah, that sounds excellent.
- [46:10]
B
That does sound. Lettuce and french fries. I don't know.
- [46:15]
A
I think you have creative. We'll do it. Delight.
- [46:18]
B
Yeah.
- [46:18]
A
Do it on air. Yeah, we should. That'd be a great idea. All right, Next week. But it does bring me to this like other fun story that I've mentioned on the show before, but rest of world had a great piece about this bot. Actually, it's not even a bot. It's like an application of this AI companion that's been stuffed into a stuffed animal. It's called Hyotl and it is for retirees. It asks retirees whether they're taking their medication or eating a meal. And the sensors watch over the users in real time, alerting social workers and families during emergencies. There are 412 of these bots distributed to seniors since 2019. And in Korea there's 12,000 of them, mostly in the homes of the elderly who are typically lonely. This is from the story There's a, I think a social worker saying that older adults take great comfort in just having someone to talk to. These are things they can't tell us or even their own children, but they tell heodl. I think this is great. Honestly I would love if I was all alone and I was old, I would love a AI stuffed animal to speak with and keep me company and you know, make sure that I'm being taken care of.
- [47:36]
B
I think yeah this is, this shows the complexity of this entire like conversation that at a certain level just having something to talk to I'm still going to go with something over someone is can be beneficial especially in the idea of like actually from a health perspective caretaking and reminding to take a medication or I think there is something around like or imagine it can even like based on any kind of like health data from some kind of device. It's actually able to understand how to what to say to the person. I think all that is actually seems relatively positive. I think it's more if yeah, I don't know just what this means for how you interact with other people if you get too used to something like this worries me.
- [48:29]
A
I think that's a very very valid question and we are absolutely going to be dealing with the fallout. But I do welcome you to the camp of thinking that this Companion use case is real because it really is. Okay, before we get out of here this week we should talk about 996 in San Francisco. So if you know about 996, it's a work culture predominantly associated with China where you work 9am to 9pm Six days a week. This is again from Ramp. Apparently it's a new thing in San Francisco. So the this guy Ara from Ramp looked at the data again and saw a bump of ordering from restaurants, delivery and takeout from employees at San Francisco based businesses occurring on Saturdays. So it's basically a 5% bump on Saturdays. He says it's new. There was no Saturday bump like this in 22,000 2024, 2023 or prior years. It's specific to San Francisco where of course the AI boom is happening. And he's saying it's more than just tech. So it is software companies, but they are also retail. Retail chains that may be adding more employee hours. So what do you think about 996 and do you think that this is a real thing happening in San Francisco tied to AI culture? Where I guess like the meme now is like we're all just like locking down for the rest of 2025 and not having any fun. I don't know. What's your perspective on this?
- [49:58]
B
I mean I think on the second question, is it real? I do wonder how they differentiate that it's work related or people are just spending their company's money on Saturdays and like if that's okay. I don't know. Did, did they get into that?
- [50:12]
A
So I spoke with our about this and apparently this is a, this is a comparison to the year before. So it's actually a new thing that they're seeing now.
- [50:23]
B
Okay, okay. Well, I think, I mean the whole idea of like celebrating Even the term996 has always bothered me a bit. I mean again I think I work a fair amount but I don't know, it's just not something I always kind of get uncomfortable when people celebrate it. I think they, it's maybe as a reaction to the idea of like where things definitely during post Covid and remote work got a bit loose at many companies. I think maybe this is going to be a counter reaction to that. But I don't know. Overall it makes me uncomfortable. What about you?
- [51:02]
A
But don't you think so the argument for it, I'm just going to throw it out there would be that the US and San Francisco in particular needs this kind of work ethic to keep up with China if it's going to really factor in the AI boom. What do you think?
- [51:18]
B
Okay, I mean let him work, Let him work and make me a VC subsidized AI that I can use. I guess that makes me happy, but I don't know. Overall I've never the whole like hours worked again. I worked in finance for many years and I was on the trading side, not the banking side. But it always blew my mind how like everyone I would talk to so much of the time was spent around spending the hours rather than the actual output of the work. So to me almost the very idea of like assigning hours 9am to 9pm 60 a week versus we are actually just producing more maybe I'm working seven days a week or maybe I'm working 9am to 6pm like, it's just, it feels like it's a direction of. It's more about flexing the hours worked rather than we're actually doing well.
- [52:14]
A
Yeah, I agree with you. Also, like, where I get concerned is that this is the expectation. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. I think that, like, we can be expected to do a reasonable amount of work in our jobs. But like, asking for nine to nine and then a weekend day at that level of hours to me is a bit nuts. But people in San Francisco, I don't know, they seem to be proud of it. So I guess if it's your choice, go for it.
- [52:38]
B
If it's your choice, you are free. We will not tell you otherwise. You're free to organize on Discord to go work 9am to 9pm Six days a week.
- [52:48]
A
Make it happen. But with, you know, within, within reason. Don't, don't organize against Rancho tonight, please. We hope that we're, we're doing the job that you, you've put us here for, so.
- [53:00]
B
But if you need to overthrow us and the people feel that's what's right.
- [53:05]
A
We respect your wishes, but just do it on Discord and sign up for a big technology paid subscription so we can, you know, find something else to do. Anyway, why don't we end it there? You and I will be back next week. Lot to talk about next week again. And thank you, Ranjan, again for being here. Always fun to talk.
- [53:23]
B
All right, see you next week.
- [53:25]
A
All right, see you then. And thank you everybody for listening again. Aaron Levy will be on the show next Wednesday talking about all things AI in business. And we'll see you next time on big technology podcast.