OpenAI Builds A Browser, Microsoft Copilot’s Struggles, Jaguar Rebrand

Summary

Big Technology Podcast: OpenAI Builds a Browser, Microsoft Copilot’s Struggles, Jaguar Rebrand Hosted by Alex Kantrowitz | Guest: Ranjan Roy
Release Date: November 22, 2024

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Introduction

In this jam-packed Friday Edition of the Big Technology Podcast, host Alex Kantrowitz, alongside regular guest Ranjan Roy of Margins, delves into several pivotal developments across the tech landscape. The episode covers OpenAI's ambitious plans to build a web browser, the U.S. government's antitrust actions against Google, Microsoft's challenges with Copilot, the significant funding round for Anthropic, and Jaguar's controversial rebranding efforts.

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OpenAI's Foray into Web Browsers

OpenAI's Ambitious Move

Alex kicks off the discussion with groundbreaking news: OpenAI is contemplating the development of its own web browser. This initiative aims to integrate directly with OpenAI’s chatbot, potentially redefining how users interact with the internet. The integration promises enhanced search capabilities, leveraging partnerships with companies like Conde Nast, Redfin, Eventbrite, and Priceline to power specialized search features for various industries.

Alex Kantrowitz [08:00]: "If OpenAI is able to pull this off and reset that default from Google to ChatGPT and Search GPT, then you're talking about a real challenge to Google as opposed to what we've seen so far, which is something totally different from search."

Ranjan Roy's Insight

Ranjan agrees, emphasizing the strategic importance of the browser's address bar—the gateway to the internet. He draws parallels to Google’s successful launch of Chrome, which secured a 65% market share, illustrating the potential impact of OpenAI controlling the browser landscape.

Ranjan Roy [04:00]: "I think the idea of a new type of browser and someone else doing it well, rather than just Chrome, could be a big deal."

Challenges Ahead

Alex provides a realist perspective, acknowledging the formidable infrastructure and ecosystem Google has built around Chrome, including seamless integration with services like Gmail, Maps, and Google Workspace. He questions OpenAI's ability to disrupt this entrenched dominance, despite OpenAI's track record of creating highly effective products.

Alex Kantrowitz [07:22]: "It becomes a tough challenge because Google has built so much of the infrastructure, making it hard for new entrants to compete."

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U.S. Government's Antitrust Actions Against Google

Breaking Up a Monopoly

The podcast shifts focus to the U.S. Department of Justice's (DOJ) recent move to potentially dismantle Google's control over the Chrome browser. This action is part of a broader strategy to address Google's monopolistic practices in search and browser markets.

Alex Kantrowitz [08:12]: "U.S. regulators want a federal judge to break up Google to prevent the company from continuing to squash competition through its dominant search engine."

Debate on the Extent of Regulation

Alex and Ranjan engage in a spirited debate about the DOJ's approach. While Alex expresses skepticism about the necessity and aggressiveness of breaking up Chrome, Ranjan counters by highlighting Google's extensive integration across its services, which creates significant barriers for competitors.

Ranjan Roy [14:47]: "I think you one of those Alex's made the point perfectly that Google Sheets, Google Sheets and Docs... have been sitting on the dominance of Chrome. If it was truly a competitive market, they would be pushing."

The discussion touches on historical parallels, such as Microsoft's struggles against Google with Internet Explorer, and contemplates whether similar measures could successfully counteract Google's current dominance.

Ranjan Roy [08:49]: "Because Google did it to Microsoft... They launched Chrome and established themselves."

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Microsoft's Copilot: Hype vs. Reality

Struggles and Backlash

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to analyzing Microsoft's Copilot, an AI-driven tool integrated into its suite of products. According to a Gartner survey cited by Alex, a mere four out of 123 IT leaders found Copilot to provide significant value, underscoring the product's underperformance relative to expectations.

Ranjan Roy [35:03]: "Four out of 123 executives... Copilot is struggling to live up to the hype."

Pricing and Integration Issues

Ranjan points out that Copilot's pricing—$30 per month per user—effectively doubles the cost of a standard Microsoft Office 365 subscription. This steep price point is justified by Microsoft through projected returns on investment, but users remain unconvinced of the value provided.

Ranjan Roy [36:33]: "If you're paying $30 a month, you better be delivering some real value."

Security Concerns

The conversation takes a critical turn as Alex highlights severe security issues reported by users, including unauthorized access to sensitive information like executive emails. Despite Microsoft's assurances, these vulnerabilities have led many companies to pause their deployment of Copilot.

Alex Kantrowitz [42:15]: "If you're faced with a trade-off between security and another priority, your answer is clear. Do security."

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Anthropic's Monumental Funding Round

$4 Billion Investment

Shifting gears, Alex announces that Anthropic, a prominent AI company, has successfully raised $4 billion—the largest venture capital round in history. This substantial investment underscores the growing confidence in AI advancements and positions Anthropic as a formidable player in the generative AI space.

Alex Kantrowitz [49:50]: "Anthropic raised $4 billion... It's going to make AWS the primary place it'll train its flagship generative AI models."

Strategic Partnerships

Unlike OpenAI’s partnership with Microsoft, Anthropic has secured a clean relationship with Amazon, which invested the entire $4 billion round. This partnership emphasizes Amazon Web Services (AWS) as the backbone for Anthropic’s AI model training.

Ranjan Roy [49:50]: "Amazon gave all $4 billion. I'm happy for this—it means both OpenAI and Anthropic will get better."

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Jaguar's Controversial Rebrand

A Bold, Yet Divisive Move

Jaguar has embarked on a bold rebranding journey, introducing a vibrant and youthful image that starkly deviates from its traditional luxury automobile identity. The new 30-second commercial features a diverse group of expressionless individuals in colorful, sculptural garments navigating a fuchsia landscape without showcasing any Jaguar cars.

Alex Kantrowitz [53:00]: "This rebrand was terrible. It's the opposite of what you want your company to be—completely off-putting."

Ranjan's Counterpoint

Contrary to Alex's initial criticism, Ranjan offers a nuanced perspective, suggesting that while the commercial may appear baffling, it serves a strategic purpose. Jaguar aims to reposition itself within the electric vehicle (EV) market and broaden its consumer base beyond hardcore car enthusiasts.

Ranjan Roy [53:18]: "Their cars have been declining in sales, especially in the US... Their goal is probably to move away from pure, hardcore car enthusiasts to more regular consumers."

Engaging the Audience

Jaguar's approach has sparked significant online discussion, with the company actively engaging with critics in the comments—an uncommon move for established brands. This strategy aims to generate buzz and maintain visibility in an increasingly crowded EV market.

Ranjan Roy [55:45]: "They owned it and they were funny about it. If the goal was to get people to talk, they succeeded."

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Alex and Ranjan reflecting on the diverse array of topics discussed. From OpenAI’s potential disruption of the browser market and the DOJ’s aggressive stance on Google, to Microsoft's rocky path with Copilot, Anthropic’s unprecedented funding, and Jaguar’s daring rebrand, the Big Technology Podcast provides listeners with a comprehensive overview of current tech dynamics.

Alex Kantrowitz [61:13]: "Thank you for listening. Ranjan, great to see you. Thanks for being here."

As the tech world continues to evolve at a rapid pace, both hosts underscore the importance of staying informed and critically evaluating the implications of these developments.

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Notable Quotes

• Alex Kantrowitz [08:00]: "If OpenAI is able to pull this off and reset that default from Google to ChatGPT and Search GPT, then you're talking about a real challenge to Google as opposed to what we've seen so far, which is something totally different from search."

• Ranjan Roy [04:00]: "I think the idea of a new type of browser and someone else doing it well, rather than just Chrome, could be a big deal."

• Ranjan Roy [36:33]: "If you're paying $30 a month, you better be delivering some real value."

• Alex Kantrowitz [42:15]: "If you're faced with a trade-off between security and another priority, your answer is clear. Do security."

• Alex Kantrowitz [53:00]: "This rebrand was terrible. It's the opposite of what you want your company to be—completely off-putting."

• Ranjan Roy [55:45]: "They owned it and they were funny about it. If the goal was to get people to talk, they succeeded."

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Stay tuned for next week's episode featuring Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff, where discussions will continue on the evolving intersections of AI, technology, and business strategy.

Transcript

[Alex Kantrowitz]

OpenAI is thinking about building a browser, just as the US government considers making Google spin off Chrome. Anthropic raises $4 billion, Microsoft Copilot is struggling, and Jaguar is rebranding. Dear Lord. All that and more is coming up on a jam packed Big Technology Podcast Friday Edition right after this.

[Ranjan Roy]

Hey, I'm Michael Kovnat, host of the Next Big Idea Daily. The show is a masterclass in better living from some of the smartest writers around.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Every morning, Monday through Friday, we'll serve.

[Ranjan Roy]

Up a 10 minute lesson on how to strengthen your relationships, supercharge your creativity, boost your productivity and more. Follow the Next Big Idea Daily wherever.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

You get your podcasts.

[Gianna Prudenti]

Hey, I'm Gianna Prudenti. And I'm Jamaic Jackson Gadsden. We're the hosts of let's Talk offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Mori Tahari Poor.

[Ranjan Roy]

If you start thinking about negotiations as.

[Gianna Prudenti]

Just a conversation, then I think it.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Sort of eases us a little bit.

[Gianna Prudenti]

Listen to let's Talk offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Welcome to Big Technology Podcast Friday Edition where we break down the news in our traditional cool headed and nuanced format. It seems like every week so much happens, but this was definitely a pivotal week in the world of tech and AI. We have news that OpenAI is thinking about building a browser. News that the US government is considering making Google spin off its own browser. Chrome Anthropic, of course, has raised $4 billion. Apple is doing repairs on Siri or an upgrade. We'll talk about that. And also the struggles of Microsoft Copilot and that really, I would say, confusing Jaguar rebrand. Joining us as always on Fridays is Ranjan Roy of Margins. Ranjan, welcome to the show.

[Ranjan Roy]

I can't believe you're already teasing me about Siri and its promise and that they're going to fix it, but I.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Mean we're going to get to it. But can you believe that the story comes out this week that that Apple is like, maybe we should put an LLM into Siri? I mean, come on.

[Ranjan Roy]

Thank you, Tim Cook.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Anyway, let's talk about some of our major stories and then we'll get to the Siri upgrade Which I know you're really looking forward to. The first thing that caught my eye this week and one of the more interesting stories here is that OpenAI is considering building a browser to compete with Google. This is from the information the chat owner recently considered developing a web browser that would combine with its chatbot, and it has separately discussed or struck deals to power search features for travel, food, real estate and retail websites with companies like Conde Nast, Redfin, Eventbrite in Priceline. Okay, a lot going on here, but I think the idea that OpenAI is considering building a browser is fascinating because now you have recently recently released Search GPT, which I surmised was just a way to get funding. But if you build a browser, it becomes a totally different thing because the address bar, I would say is the most valuable real estate on the entire desktop computer. If you own the address bar in the browser, you get to control what the default is. Google saw this, built Chrome, by the way, project manager on Chrome, Sundar Pichai, who's now the CEO of Google. And that is what enabled them to sort of get out of from under Microsoft's thumb and establish Google into what it is today. And Chrome today on the desktop controls 65% of the market share. If OpenAI is able to pull this off and resets that default From Google to ChatGPT and Search GPT, which has been more impressive than I thought it would be since it's come out, then you're talking about a real challenge to Google as opposed to what we've seen so far, which is something totally different from search. So Ranjit, I'm curious what you thought when you saw this news and whether you think I'm getting it right here.

[Ranjan Roy]

No, I think this is. You're right on this and I think it's very interesting because exactly that point, the search bar and the address bar is exactly where, where all activity starts in any kind of web browsing. So if they can cut into that at all, it will be huge for it'll actually make Search GPT a thing because I think it's still a bit of an unnatural action within ChatGPT to switch from that chat interface and interaction to really searching. I think that's where Perplexity has gotten, is beating them right now, because I still think of Perplexity more as a search engine than I do chatgpt, but in terms of like the productization of it, that also excites me because I think OpenAI could make a pretty good browser. That's where they've been you know, the best in market compared to everyone else making really, really good products. And it's kind of nice, the idea of a new type of browser and someone else doing it well, rather than just Chrome. So this, this could be a big deal.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Definitely. I think that this, if it takes off and it's a big if as a multibillion dollar product for OpenAI, maybe even more important than ChatGPT. And it's going to need a couple of those because like we talked about a thousand times, it's losing like 6 or no, 5 billion this year and probably more in years to come. It needs these products. And I Give credit to OpenAI for thinking big like this and thinking literally Internet scale as opposed to chatbot scale. But we need to put the caveat here, which is that According to information, OpenAI isn't remotely close to launching a browser. Launching a browser is timely and complicated because the browser providers need to ensure people's data doesn't leak to websites. And by God, that would be terrible if it happened because the entire trust that you put in ChatGPT is sort of being able to share some of your personal information and have it make sense of it.

[Ranjan Roy]

Well, I have an idea that I want to put out there if anyone at OpenAI is listening, by the browser company. The browser company produces a browser called arc, which is my absolute favorite browser. It's become one of the most used products on my computer and it just completely changed the way I browse the web and save tabs. And you can have it ready to go. It's that easy. The company has raised like $120 million, which is probably too much. And they already are having to pivot their own product roadmap itself because of the expectations. But if any company could afford that, it would be OpenAI.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

What makes you like the ARC browser more than others?

[Ranjan Roy]

You can switch profiles very quickly, like just basically swipe around versus Chrome. It's a little heavier. And I have. I'm a browser nerd in a way. So I have like different profiles for different kind of parts of my work. And then the way you can save tabs, the way you can organize them is amazing. With search, you can search a web page, but then you can actually call ChatGPT and get like a web summary or even take an AI chat action on the web page just in the search bar that's pulled up like the way that. And it's just a nice product. It's like a beautifully designed software and there's not a lot of that out there right now.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

So overall, and this is what they've talked about, and I think that it's pretty clear that it's just really difficult to challenge Google in the browser space right now. Not only has Google built a ton of the infrastructure with its browser developer kit, but it has so many different services. You're talking about Gmail, you're talking about Maps, talking about Calendar. I mean, people are. And Google Docs people are so deep into their Google suite of, of web applications that they work best with the browser. They're all communicating well when they're on the Google browser, and it's very difficult to get them out. And ARC has even written about this, that it's really struggling to beat Google and it's even thinking about different products because of this. And I think any product from OpenAI would run into the same issue. And so that's like, I'm excited about this product from OpenAI, but I also am trying to be realistic that trying to change the status quo of browsers is really difficult. I mean, you have groups from Mozilla. That's their only job. You have groups in Microsoft, that's their only job. You have a group in Apple, that's their only job is building browsers. And remember, we know that OpenAI is kind of chaos. They're good at products, though. But I still think they're going to be able to. They will run into some serious challenges. If you look at all the different ways that the tech industry has tried to unseat Google and has failed, what makes you have any confidence that OpenAI could do this themselves?

[Ranjan Roy]

Because Google did it to Microsoft. Like, let's not forget Internet Explorer. I think it had 98% market share in the early 2000s. When Google and Google realized this was going to become one of their biggest bets in the history of the company. And it was wildly successful that they, you know, they launched Chrome, I think it was in 2006, and it, it succeeded. And obviously there was antitrust and like Justice Department pressure on Microsoft at that time. So it was an inroad for them. But if they, they showed it can be done in the power of owning the browser, I guess the only thing that I do think about that was the most successful possible strategic move in the mid 2000s. So maybe what's going to happen five, ten years from now is not a browser. Like, actually maybe now that I'm thinking about it, because it appears the most obvious move is there going to be some other type of interface or access point to the Internet that Actually makes this not look as interesting.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

The humane pin.

[Ranjan Roy]

Well, yes.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Or the rabbit. I'm talking a rabbit. Thinking about having rabbit on.

[Ranjan Roy]

Are you wearing your pin right now?

[Alex Kantrowitz]

You know, I lost it. I misplaced it.

[Ranjan Roy]

Mine set on fire. Weren't they setting on fire? I think there's some risk of it.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

But is that with the other formats? It might be that mobile is the thing that just ends up being the most important. And in that case, you're still kind of losing out to Google with Android and you have to rely on Apple with iOS. But hey, look, the desktop seems to be the thing that's most up for grabs. So maybe go for the desktop. And I think there's an interesting historical point here to make, which is that Google was able to seize the leadership of desktop browsers from Microsoft because Microsoft actually had an incentive and an interest in making the web slower when it developed Internet Explorer because it had Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, Microsoft PowerPoint. Right. It wanted the Internet to be kind of slow so that you wouldn't go to the web to use Google Docs, Google Sheets and Google Slides better. The Internet kind of works, but isn't so great. And you use all of Microsoft's desktop products. After all, the number one thing Microsoft was selling was the desktop operating system in Windows. And Google used that window and that incumbency problem to try to actually take away the leadership of Chrome, of browsers from Microsoft. And it did it with Chrome. And maybe I think what you're saying here is spot on, that we might be seeing a historical analog where we know Google's done a really good job recently in catching up with OpenAI and ChatGPT, but it still has that incumbency problem. It still has search. And I can't really reimagine something like the browser in the address bar, the way that someone like an incumbent like OpenAI, whose number one product is generative AI and ChatGPT can. And maybe that's the window that opens and allows them to attack.

[Ranjan Roy]

No, that's exactly what I'm saying. Like the arc. One of the things I like when you, when you're like control, when you're trying to find something on a website like a word, and you try to search for it, that's how search we're used to on a webpage. They've integrated ChatGPT directly into that search function. So when you look up a word, you can actually ask. You can talk to the website essentially in real time. So it's just a completely different way of what is searching A page. And if that's one tiny thing that AI has allowed us to do, just imagine how different browsing the web could look if someone reimagines the browser.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Absolutely. And maybe the US Government will reimagine the browser for us. Because this came out this week. This is from the ap. US Regulators seek to break up Google forcing Chrome sale as part of a monopoly punishment. I mean, this case was brought initially over the search defaults. That app that Google paid Apple for and others for to distribute Google as the, you know, default. The same way that Google is the default in Chrome because it owns chrome. It's paying $20 billion a year to Apple to be the default search tool when you're using search on the iPhone. But Department of Justice is like, all right, you did that. Guess what? We don't want you to have a browser at all anymore. This is coming from the AP story. You get. U.S. regulators want a federal judge to break up Google to prevent the company from continuing to squash competition through its dominant search engine after a court found it had maintained an abusive monopoly over the past decade. The sale of Chrome, it said, will permanently stop Google's control of the critical search access point and allow rival search engines the ability to access the browser that for many users is a gateway to the Internet. So here's the DOJ basically talking about how important Chrome is. So we all acknowledge it. OpenAI is like, Ah, yeah, we made the right strategic move trying to go for the browser. This is what the DOJ is attacking now. I had previously said, listen, this was, you know, something that was, if it was anti competitive, that Google was paying Apple all that money to be the default in search. Just address the default on the iPhone and on mobile and don't go for anything else within Google. I had some people that wrote to me and said, you're, you're missing it, Alex. The thing is, Google used illegal tactics to establish itself as a monopoly, making it hard for others to compete. You can't just try to go through the single tactics that it was using. You got to go for everything because it's built such a lead that you need really aggressive measures to be able to counteract what Google has done. That's the argument. I'm not fully on board with that. I still think this is overly aggressive. But I'm curious what you think, Ronjan.

[Ranjan Roy]

I think you made the argument about five minutes ago that should put you fully on board because you said the Chrome browser works better with the entire suite of tools almost seamlessly. Maps, Gmail, and all these. And then Google search itself and the whole ecosystem is the power. And we see that. And you can't just try to address one small piece of it. And I think it is a reasonable argument to say that to establish this dominance and using illegal tactics to get there, or what's considered illegal now, you can't just address a small part of it. You basically explained the case for the Department of Justice on this segment just a few months. A few minutes ago.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

I did, and now I'm regretting that. But I. But I also want to say that I'm annoyed.

[Ranjan Roy]

No representing the federal government. Alex Cantroit.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Your Honor, I want to present a witness to argue against the prosecution. And that is me again, a prosecutor with a change of heart. Because as I'm making these arguments, they sound right. But then again, I'm also a user of Chrome and I am a psycho user because I'm on my own. I'm not an Outlook. So I'm all in Google products. I use Google Workspace. So for me it's like Chrome is my browser. Gmail is my default email service. Calendar is what I do. All my scheduling in the drive is where I have all my documents. Slides is where I make my PowerPoint presentation, and sheets is where I do my invoicing and scheduling and ad management. Right. And docs is where I do my writing. I as a consumer want all of this to work seamlessly together. And I would be annoyed if the government decided to take action that made that experience worse. Now, the argument against what I'm saying, since I'm playing all sides today, would be no dummy. The fact that Google's been able to integrate this and make this all work so well means that you are dealing with products that don't innovate. You'd be working in a better docs, you'd be working in a better PowerPoint, a better email service than Gmail, and probably a better browser. So you don't know what you don't know and you're advocating for a broken system.

[Ranjan Roy]

This is incredible. I love this segment. Alex versus Alex versus Alex.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

So Ranjan, on a week where I have multiple personalities running in unison, which one is right? Help me help myself. All right.

[Ranjan Roy]

Okay. All right. So I think you one of those Alex's made the point perfectly that Google Sheets, Google Sheets and Docs, I think they were very highly innovative products. Six, seven years ago maybe like, and they did it and they had to to beat Microsoft and to actually like or cut into Microsoft Office and remember when they started rising the entire what's now or Google workspace now. I mean it was. These were incredibly groundbreaking products. They haven't changed that much. Meanwhile for me notion is a good example of a tool that redefined what is a document. Like it's, it's not quite a document. There's tables, there's images, you can embed stuff. It could be a public facing website, it could be simple note taking like it's this airtable in ways. Like there are these companies that did try air table Redefined what's a spreadsheet you can click into a cell and essentially have an entire document. It's somewhere between a database, a spreadsheet. So I think it shows that the fact that Google did not update these tools and evolve them is just sitting on the dominance of Chrome and if it was truly a competitive market they would have been pushing. They should be able to like they had a pageless scrolling so there's not actual page demarcations. That took forever from Google. And it was always the most odd thing to me that when I'm writing on a browser and I'm never going to print a document I don't think in terms of pages notion and others like push them in that direction. So to that Alex, I say innovation requires competition and this would be good.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Well I will also argue that maybe Microsoft's copilot with generative AI in all of its products is going to be good enough to unseat Google. And for the discussion of whether that's going to happen, you all are going to have to stay tuned for the second half because we will get to that. But continuing on with this, the Department of Justice is also suggesting some other interesting things which is that Google has to rip up its exclusive search deals. And then there's another interesting thing where it wants Google to be required to syndicate its U.S. search results to other rival search engines for the next decade. Basically I guess saying that Google, you have the best, you have the best tools and you or you have the best search results and you are going to effectively be required to make those available to competitors. Which is like if that's the case, I don't know why you still in business or stuff. Do you think any of this is better than spinning off Chrome?

[Ranjan Roy]

No, see I agree that this one seemed a bit odd to me that yeah like if that's your core business to outsource it or make or make it open source or like have to license it and like make it mandatory did seem kind of weird I guess if I was trying to think through what the logic could be. It almost is Google making search free slash, coming up with one of the greatest business models of all time with like intent based advertising. Maybe it's like recognizing that the free product was always kind of like a ticket to trying to establish market dominance and that maybe that's not the case. I don't think I quite believe that. I'm just trying to figure out what the government might be going for, but I think it's much cleaner. Spin off chrome, spin off YouTube, spin off Android, one of those options, something like that would just make a lot more sense to me.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

So we always like to talk about what's actually going to happen on this show. And I thought M.G. siegler from Spyglass friend of the show had a terrific story basically looking at what's going on here. And his view is that this push to have Google spin off Chrome or sell Chrome is really just the first position that the government is taking. They want to say let's throw everything at Google and then hopefully we'll get to some negotiated settlement. He says basically some of the things that I've brought up or one of me has brought up, which is that there's no great alternative, you don't really have a natural acquirer. Google also does a lot for the browser world with its Chromium tool which by the way ARC is built on top of this is sort of what I was talking about, the developer kits that it has and this is what he says anyway, the reality of any of this happening remains fairly small at the moment and in any sort of short term it's non existent appeals and it's non existent appeals and lawsuits will bog all this down for years. The only way something gets done faster is if there's an option that Google calculates is worth negotiating to make this all go away. To me that still feels like the default search payments in particular because that probably hurts Apple more than Google. So that maybe Google like puts, you know, decides then it doesn't want to do these default search payments anymore. And this is what he says the government must know that as well though. So round and round will go whittling down options and severity in proposals until its final offer time next year. I'm guessing Chrome isn't on the table by then. Do you think that's reasonable?

[Ranjan Roy]

I think we are at that interim time, the lame duck time, while as we wait for the Trump inauguration and not to move too much into the politics but trying to predict anything, remember who would have been running the Department of justice. As of 24 hours ago, Matt Gaetz is no longer in position to lead that. So I think it is interesting to me to think about, like, and remembering why Sundar is tweeting, congratulations to Trump. Anything can happen. And I think things could happen quickly. Like, we have no idea. But one kind of inkling from Trump that I want to do this and screw Google. Maybe this could move faster.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Yeah, I think everybody within Google, actually, I don't really know, but I would imagine they're all, like, waiting to say what happens until the next administration comes, because we lost against the last one. Maybe new people would help us out. But also, the case started against Trump, started with the case against Google, started with Trump.

[Ranjan Roy]

Yeah.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

And so now he's back.

[Ranjan Roy]

And I think antitrust is going to be one of the most interesting things to see which direction he goes, because that's one, I think, complete. There's many wild cards, but that definitely is one where there's absolutely no clear telegraphing. Because, again, on one side, less regulation. Better, but, like, more open for business. On the other side, hating Big Tech. With Elon whispering in his ear, it could definitely go either way.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

I don't know if he's going to hate Big Tech as much this time around because he has less of a. Like, Facebook tried to make me lose the election. Remember, he has Twitter. That was definitely a help to him. Google, I think, backed away from a lot of their restrictions over the 2024 election. Like, big tech actually wasn't as big of a factor in the election. Like, Facebook did. No politics. It was like we talked about, it was podcasts that really, in terms of tech, you know, made the biggest impact. And that's like the least algorithmically filtered medium you can find.

[Ranjan Roy]

I. I think maybe he'll support Spotify over Apple and finally help push them in their complaints about Apple dominance. One day, all for the podcast, though, Theo Vaughn's going to call him up and say, help help out Spotify.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

As much as I love Theo Von, I don't think he's going to be involved in antitrust policy.

[Ranjan Roy]

That's just my big antitrust guy. Huge antitrust guy.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Yeah. Sherman Antitrust act is one of his favorite things to dig into.

[Ranjan Roy]

You never know.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

So, okay. Talking about incumbents in products that have sucked for a while, we have an update on Siri. So this is from Bloomberg. Apple readies a more conversational Siri in a bid to catch up in AI, Mark Gurman writes, Apple is racing to develop a more conversational version of Siri, its digital assistant aiming to catch up with OpenAI's chat GPT and other voice services. The new Siri, details of which haven't yet been reported, uses more advanced large language models or LLMs to allow back and forth conversations. The system can also handle more sophisticated requests in a quicker fashion. I am somewhat astonished by this headline because I thought that's what Apple Intelligence was supposed to be and Apple Intelligence has like turned out into basically nothing. It summarizes my messages for me and that's. That's it. Siri still is pretty dumb in there. In fact, I've seen a meme recently of people disabling Apple Intelligence because they say it makes you dumber or it's not really good. What. What is going on within Apple that they waited until now and maybe credit that they they're finally doing it, but they waited until now to try to fix Siri.

[Ranjan Roy]

If you are astonished, I just chat GPT. What is a word for 10 times the level of being astonished? I got flabbergasted, staggered or dumbfounded. And those are my reactions to the idea of Apple now coming up with LLM Siri and starting to think about it. And regular listeners know exactly how I feel about Siri. It has not gotten any better. Apple Intelligence, at least what we have seen so far, remains one of the most half baked of all AI like hyped AI products out there. So none of this gives me hope. And I don't get it. I just don't get it. This is a company that gets product. They have a relationship with OpenAI, they can have relationship with any major model provider out there. And these products are Claude and ChatGPT and even like random AI products I come across are so good. Why they organizationally still can't make basic AI products, I don't get it.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

I just don't understand why this wasn't included in the initial push for Apple Intelligence. Like did the people over there think, okay, we're going to introduce large language models and generative AI into our products and we're going to call it Apple Intelligence and the thing that we're not going to work on is our intelligent generative assistant?

[Ranjan Roy]

I well, I guess maybe it does represent where Siri kind of lives in the organizational hierarchy. Because you're right though that they even were kind of like caveating how integrated Apple Intelligence would be with Siri. Like it was more an add on. It wasn't. You're right, it wasn't a core part. It wasn't the Siri group that became an AI group and it still remained separate and the Apple intelligence group would then power like feed into Siri. So yeah, I think it shows definitely kind of the wrong strategic approach to this entire thing and it does not make me any more hopeful. Even though my whole house is home pods now that the back and forth of like my wife and son and stuff going back, trying to get it to do what they're asking. It's like play a song. I'm sorry your Apple music subscription is not powered for this because I use Spotify. Like there's so many of these moments that are almost comical but just don't work.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

The Echo isn't much better. Like I said in a recent episode, it woke me up for a full week straight with ads for Celsius energy drink. Although that's finally stopped. So maybe someone there is listening.

[Ranjan Roy]

But actually on that, one thing I think is going to be really interesting in the whole voice battle is Amazon. There was a report last week, I think that the attempts to integrate their LLMs into Alexa have been taking longer than expected because of latency. And I think latency is going to be a huge topic in this because Jeff Bezos family famously on the original Echo, like said he wanted answers in like a quarter of a second. It was something where the team said this is impossible. And he said make it happen. And they made it happen. And it always was. The speed of answers were critical in making it a great device. And Siri, you're going to hear me say something nice about Siri. It has gotten faster. It might not give the right answer, but it'll confidently do it more quickly.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Oh my God, that is such a great tagline for Siri. Faster. Dumber.

[Ranjan Roy]

Siri. Siri won't give you necessarily the right answer, but it'll be quick but counts for something. But LLM processing like can be heavy. It can be heavy and the more complex the systems are that it's trying to query or it really can take longer. And consumers have been trained to want an instantaneous answer. Again, like ChatGPT. I've said this a lot. The greatest UI trick of all time was the kind of typing dots cursor that make you think it's thinking and then letting the text stream almost so it allows the time that it's taking to generate the answer almost be magical. Like there's a brain thinking. But what, what do you do if the overall time it takes to answer a voice query goes from a quarter second to one second or two seconds, then do people Stop using it. Do they? Do they? Can you fill it in somehow? So I think that'll be a big challenge for everyone in the industry.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Definitely. And one of the things that Apple has going for it is it still has that default experience. We talked, we started the show talking about market dogs. That's important. And if it gets its act together here, it has a longer lead time to be relevant. And Apple intelligence, at least the first version, is not it. We can say with certainty now, maybe this does, because if you think about it, just imagine if Siri was as good as Claude is today. It changes the whole experience on your phone. And can Apple get to where Claude is today? Eventually, it better be able to. I mean, we're talking about a long lead time here, and that really can create a pretty impressive product. Only if, and this is the thing I think was holding Apple back this entire time. Only if Apple is willing to sacrifice a little bit of control and say we're going to allow the large language model to do the work for us. And because it wasn't willing to do that, Apple Intelligence has been the disappointment it has. And if it's deciding that that's something that it's willing to do, then it could be in a much better position.

[Ranjan Roy]

I have a proposal to whomever will be leading the Department of Justice on January 20, 2025. Force Apple to spin off Siri and then make the ability to be the voice activation part of the iPhone an open battle. And maybe It'll be the ChatGPT voice feature. Maybe it'll be some other, like, enterprising companies and make voice on the iPhone a competitive space. That's my platform. That's what I'm running on.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Well, Ranjan, all three of me agree with you on that front, so very convincing argument.

[Ranjan Roy]

That's three votes already.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Three. Three votes, including yours. That's four. Nothing settled. And unanimous consent. Four. Zero. Siri to the people. Be a good campaign.

[Ranjan Roy]

But what does not have unanimous consent is the quality of Microsoft's Copilot.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Exactly. So Microsoft's had some serious issues with copilot. We also have some news that Klarna's IPO is coming out. And then, of course, there's this Jaguar rebrand and anthropic funding that we want to get to. So why don't we do that on the other side of this break?

[Gianna Prudenti]

Hey, I'm Gianna Prudente. And I'm Jamae Jackson Gadsden. We're the hosts of let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn news and iHeart podcast when you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions like how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl yes, each week we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Sanner.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies.

[Gianna Prudenti]

Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like? You miss 100% of the shots you never take. Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Than you rejecting yourself.

[Gianna Prudenti]

Together we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to let's Talk offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

And we're back here on Big Technology Podcast Friday edition talking about Microsoft. Hopefully we'll be able to get Klarna in Jaguar rebrand for sure. And the Anthropic funding, it's amazing. Anthropic raised $4 billion and everyone's like and OpenAI raised slightly more and it was like, biggest VC round of all time. Look at them go. So we'll talk about that, but first of all, there's this big story, and this is we're going to spend some time on this, that Microsoft's copilot has really not lived up to expectations with some incredible quotes from employees. And this is all being broken down from Business Insider. So Business Insider says a year after Co Pilot's release, the reviews both inside and outside of Microsoft indicate that the new product is struggling to live up to the hype. While there is no single measurement of CoPilot's performance, given a wide array of feature it seeks the wide array of features it seeks to provide. Many customers appear to be dissatisfied with the AI tool, complaining that it is ineffective, costly and not secure. And this is something worth paying attention to, folks, because this one kind of blew me away in October when the management consultancy. Sorry, in October, when the management consultancy Gartner published a survey of 123 IT leaders, only four said co pilot provided significant value to their companies. Ranjan, what did you think about when you saw this? Because we've talked about this a little bit on the show, but I thought this was A story that felt definitive, and it felt pretty bad for Microsoft and its Copilot efforts.

[Ranjan Roy]

I agree. It's pretty bad. Four out of 123 executives. And again, remember, like Gartner and other organizations like this almost, they're talking to people who live and breathe enterprise software. So they're going to get a pretty good reflection of what people are actually thinking. I think this fits pretty cleanly into the narrative that 2023 was pure hype. The budgets were just, wallets were opening up. 2024 people saw it's not going to be straightforward or easy, and 2025 people are going to ask hard questions. I think to me, the biggest issue is the pricing. So copilot's at $30 a month per user, which is essentially doubling the licensing fee for regular Microsoft Office 365. So it's basically saying you're paying 30 bucks a month for Word, Excel, whatever, and whatever else, and now you're going to pay the same, so you should expect as much value. I don't understand why they're pushing that this early. I get the anchoring side of it. Long term, you are saying, like, this is. I mean, this should provide as much value as just using Microsoft Word, but it's. There's no way these tools are going to deliver that right now. These are still, like, I don't want to say hacky tools. These are still incredible tools, but people are still figuring out how to use them to solve specific problems, and most people don't know how to do that yet. So to just shove it into their whatever app they're using and then expect them to suddenly, magically understand how to derive equal value as they get from your entire existing ecosystem. I. It doesn't make sense to me.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Yeah, that's a great, great point. And I think the pricing right here is really the problem. If Microsoft was giving this away for free or charging $5 a month per user, we would not have seen the backlash that I think we're starting to see from people. But when you charge 30 bucks a month for people, you better be delivering some real value. And especially as you're figuring it out. And the Microsoft stock has increased on the basis of being able to charge this type of fee. And I don't think folks are seeing the results. And some of the quotes, I'm just going to read a few of them from the story are like, these are incredible, remarkable. And I think folks should keep this in mind. Like people are thinking about this. With the price, it will probably be different. If it was not being charged the way that it is at 30amonth. But anyway, let's just read a couple of these quotes. I really feel like I'm living in a group delusion here at Microsoft, one longtime employee told Business Insider. The company touts that AI is going to revolutionize everything, but the support isn't there for AI to do 75% of what Microsoft claims it'll do. Here's another one. There's a gap between the ambitious vision and what users are actually experiencing internally. We're calling it growing pains. We're building the plane as we fly it. Here's another one one Microsoft executive offered a blunt assessment of Copilot's ability to deliver useful results about 1 in 10 times it's magic. The rest of the time it's why do we even try? Here's another one. There is a delusion on our marketing side where literally everything has been renamed to have Copilot in it. Everything is Copilot. Nothing else else matters. They want a Copilot tie in for everything. And lastly, everyone wants to make their impact by jamming a bad Copilot chatbot into their tools. So now every time I click on certain links I get two pop ups for crappy Copilot implementations. Your reaction?

[Ranjan Roy]

These products could and probably will be successful, but they it just takes time and like that's on the actual UI side and how people interact with them and that's definitely on the LLM side and the information it can take in and return to you. So again to try to just roll this out too quickly and jam it in and double the price of an existing subscription. That again, $30 for an entire Microsoft Office suite is a good deal. $30 for copilot as it is today is not. I think they're really hurting themselves and I think the but I guess it doesn't matter because the stock's up. It's it's sending the message that to the market that this is like how you can build out your financial models and this is how you can value the stock. So for now the strategy has been good I guess. Now also I was thinking like $30 when you think about Copilot and double the fee of Microsoft Office sounds like it's too much. But 20 bucks for ChatGPT plus 20 bucks for Claude I'm totally fine with and I get a ton way more value than that $20 feels like. So maybe it's not the right it's not the wrong price if it works in the long term. But it is now, but it does.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Matter because you're going to have companies that are, this is their relationship with Microsoft and it's now going to have Copilot everywhere. If you have bad experiences there, you may be less inclined to buy more seats, buy more services. You might cancel and not want to go back in when it is, when it gets better. And then of course, and I promise we're going to stop the piling on in a moment. But this is an important part to read. There's the security concern and the security concern is massive. And I don't know if this is just cherry picked examples or whatever it is, but it exists and it's worth talking about. This is from the article. Many customers have deployed Copilot only to discover that it can enable employees to read an executive's inbox or access sensitive HR documents. This is from a Microsoft employee. Now when Joe logs into an account and kicks off Copilot, they can see everything. All of a sudden Joe can see the CEO's emails. And a Microsoft spokesperson said the company isn't aware of any examples in which an employee has been able to see the CEO's inbox without permission. Another Microsoft employee said the tool works really darn well at sharing information that the customer doesn't want to share or didn't think it had been made available to its employee, such as salary info. The problem is that it takes years and these are not easy situation. Faced with such issues, some customers have paused their deployment of copilot. In the Gartner survey, 40% of IT managers said their company has delayed implementing the tool for at least three months, citing oversharing and security concerns. I mean, Saadi Nadella has said security over everything. If you. He said internally, if you're faced with a trade off between security and another priority, your answer is clear. Do security. This is part of the Microsoft revival. It's been security. And so then I'm left wondering what are we doing here? If we're, you know, the company that prioritizes security, has ridden security, but is allowing these Copilot instances to leak important information.

[Ranjan Roy]

They need to better answer this. And again, it's a quote from I think, yeah, it's a Microsoft employee familiar with customer complaints. But the idea that there has been any customer complaints, that some lower level employee logged into Copilot and could see the CEO's emails, I mean that breaks the entire product. That's like it's over at that point. So to just say like a Microsoft spokesperson, if their only response is we are not aware of any examples in which an employee has been able to see a CEO's email inbox without permission. That's kind of shocking to me like.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

From just from communication.

[Ranjan Roy]

No, it does not happen. Like I hope so because if it does, you better address it. If that has happened once, you better address this right now. You don't just say like give a standard PR spokesperson response or like non answer. You either it happened and you address it or it didn't happen and you just go hard back at this.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

I'm shocked by that definitely. And look, this is why this is the highest I sped for them. This is why Satya wants copilot and everything. This is why they're already charging $30 per seat is because it takes a huge capex spend to make this happen. So Microsoft, I just learned this from the story. It plans to amass 1.8 million GPUs by the end of the year and it plans to triple its data center capacity, which is already at 5 gigawatts, roughly what it takes to power all of New York City each day by 27. 2020. By 2027 it plans to spend more than 100 billion on GPUs and data centers alone. It needs this to work. And it has said and this is the Microsoft defense that it studied, it commissioned a study that said for every $1 a company devoted to generative AI, the return has been $3.70. So Microsoft's response here is basically we are spending a lot of money and if you spend a lot of money, you are going to make a lot of money already today. What do you think about that? Ranjan?

[Ranjan Roy]

This is where again like and regular listeners know that this is my biggest pet peeve with the hype cycle in generative AI as a profound believer in the technology is exactly this that like again there's the quote of like they commissioned a study that forever one every $1 devoted to generative AI, their ROI is $3.70. Like selling the story that already right now people are going to be deriving insane amounts of value without especially for companies that have never really used generative AI. I've been working with this for almost three years now when GPT3 was launched via API three years ago and it takes time and it's hard work and like it everything is super custom and requires a lot of, I don't know, blood, sweat and tears. So I think they're falling into this trap again and I think they'll be okay. I'm not betting against Microsoft right now. But just tone it down a bit, that's all.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Exactly. And there's some other, like, pretty interesting stats in this story. This is also from Gartner. And this sort of like, tells us how OpenAI, I mean, not open AI, generative AI and copilot are still a pretty mixed bag, but there's some good things. So Gartner said 92% of folks said Copilot enhanced employee satisfaction. 62% called it somewhat value, but at the same time, 75% said their employees were struggling to integrate it into their daily routines. 57% said users felt the tool didn't deliver the value they expected. And 53% reported that it provided too many inaccurate results. I mean, basically what you're seeing here is something that can be very valuable, something that is useful, makes people happier, but also they're still not 100% sure how to use it. And that seems normal for a new technology. That it's just two years on the scene and always improving. That's kind of throw my hands up.

[Ranjan Roy]

And say, okay, that's my hands are in the air.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Not sum it up.

[Ranjan Roy]

That's it, that's it, that's it.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

So we find out. All right, let's rapid fire through some of the things that we have coming up here. Oh, before we rapid fire, one guy who absolutely loved this story and is quoted in it is Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff. And folks, he'll be on the show next Wednesday talking about AI and agents and co pilots and Microsoft and Salesforce and his relationship with Elon Musk and whether he's going to sell Time Inc. So that's coming up next week, so make sure to tune in for that on Wednesday. Maybe you could listen to it with your family as you drive to your Thanksgiving destination. Wherever you're going. You know, we understand that this is pure in the car entertainment for the kids.

[Ranjan Roy]

Big tech in Turkey.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Just give me, give me Benioff, give me, you know, the family in the car, hand the kids the iPads and let's get going. That's the big technology dream. All right, very quickly, anthropic raised the 4 billion. A lot of money. And my. And it came from Amazon and it's going to make aws. Uh, let's see. It's gonna make AWS the primary place it'll train its flagship generative AI models. It is interesting that Anthropic and Amazon have a much cleaner relationship than OpenAI and Microsoft. That's just my observation. What Microsoft gave less than a billion to the latest OpenAI round. Anthropic. I mean, Amazon gave all 4 billion.

[Ranjan Roy]

I'm hoping this means that as a Claude Pro subscriber, I don't know if others out there use it. I've been hitting the rate like the. They have pretty strict chat limits.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Yeah.

[Ranjan Roy]

If you use. If you're a heavy user, especially if you're writing code with it, you hit the limit. And if you're on the. I'm on the Claude subreddit and that's all everyone complains about. So I'm hoping this means that they'll be able to boost those limits a little bit. But, I mean, honestly, Claude is getting better and better. This. This is where. Why, like the Microsoft copilot stuff just irks me because there's great tools out there being built. You should be able to do it because Claude is incredible. And I'm happy for this. This means at least from the OpenAI versus the ChatGPT versus Claude battle, they'll both get better, which is a good thing for all of us, at least.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Definitely. I think this is going to prove to be one of Amazon's best investments ever.

[Ranjan Roy]

Ooh. I am, I think so bigger than Whole Foods, mgm.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Yes. Bigger than both. And I think maybe eventually more money than both. We'll find out. So, yeah, and I am going to go to their Reinvent conference coming up in December, so looking forward to doing a show from there. And we'll have more to say about that pretty soon, so let's make sure to use the final eight minutes we have together. Ranjan Talking about something near and dear to our hearts, which is the Jaguar rebrand. And I logged into Twitter one day this week and it was just a stream of people filled, filled with rage about what Jaguar had done to its brand. And I was like, ah, these people need to get over their anger at rebrands. And then I took a look and why don't we let the Wall Street Journal introduce it to us? This is from the Journal. The Jaguar rebrand is pink, diverse and doesn't feature any cars. Luxury automaker Jaguar is betting that a colorful and youthful rebrand will help it successfully launch fully into the electric car market. Critics, however, are questioning whether its brand still knows how to sell cars. An avant garde 30 second spot released this week shows a diverse group of expressionless people dressed in brightly colored sculptural garments as they stride wordlessly around a fuchsia landscape and pose with props like a yellow sledgehammer. It closes with with a look at the car Maker's new logo styled as J A capital G U ar. The video displays phrases such as copy nothing and create exuberant. But it doesn't include any cars. This is from a marketing consultant. It's unusual to see a storied brand so radically want to change its position. That's brave. But brave could be foolish if the customers don't like it. My quick reaction to this was this rebrand was terrible. It's the opposite of what you want your company to be, which was basically inaccessible to the point of, I don't even know. It was so off putting. There was again the expressionless people walking around and nothing about a car, nothing. Just sort of what acid trip did this company do to come up with this type of rebrand? That was my reaction. Maybe it's a basic reaction because it seems like everybody else felt the same way. But I know that you have a perspective, Ranjan, and I'm, I haven't heard it yet and I'm very curious to hear.

[Ranjan Roy]

I'm excited to take the other side on this one.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

No, you don't like this?

[Ranjan Roy]

I like. Okay, here's why, here's why. So for context, Jaguar, the brand, their cars have been declining in sales, especially in the US and there was a good post. It was like, you know what their positioning has been. They used to be kind of high end luxury, then they started moving a bit down market and now they're a bit lost in terms of where, like where in the price spectrum they sit. So, so the Jaguar, the brand Jaguar, the company, jlr, Jaguar and Land Rover is doing okay. Like actually they're doing pretty well. And Land Rovers models have been increasing in sales significantly. So they actually in North America saw almost 30% growth a year over year, which is, I mean cars is huge, especially for a legacy brand. So they got to do something now what do you do? This commercial was ridiculous. Like, I mean, I agree it was the stupidest thing I've ever seen. But if the true goal, and I don't know if this is actually, but they started responding in the comments some pretty funny things, like very online like responses and like kind of they engaged and the fact that they did that, no, in these situations, like brands never do that. They always kind of either the rule is you just don't say anything and let it pass or you try to like apologize or say we'll do better. They just went there, they owned it and they were funny about it. So if the goal was to get people to talk, like I had not thought about the brand Jaguar in as long as I can remember. I am excited to see the unveiling right now. Like, maybe it'll be terrible, but maybe it'll be good. But I'm thinking about it and I think this is the thing in marketing. Like, what other possible rebrand would have been exciting or talked about or good? I don't. I mean, I have no clue. I'm not a car marketer in any ways, but I think this has everyone thinking about it. And remember, their goal is probably to move away from pure, like hardcore car enthusiasts to more regular consumers. And this at least opens things up where people are thinking about them. Maybe they'll hate it, but when they come up with whatever redesign we're all.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Going to be watching, that is the most logical explanation I could possibly have heard about why this might be good for Jaguar. However, I just don't think anybody watching that commercial is going to be like, yeah, I want a Jaguar now. Did they get a lot of attention on the Internet? Sure. Is that cheap? It sure is.

[Ranjan Roy]

And we haven't seen the car yet. We haven't seen. We haven't seen. Have you thought about Jaguar in years or do you ever think about the brand Jaguar?

[Alex Kantrowitz]

No. Yeah, I did think about it this week, but I'm not. It's not. I mean, it's not making me want to buy a Jaguar.

[Ranjan Roy]

Maybe now maybe the car, if the car is awesome. Maybe, maybe. I don't know.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

But the thing is, like, I was speaking with RJ Scurringe from Rivian about this this week. Your car, however many people might say it's not true, your car is your identity in some way. What you drive says a lot about you. Do we like the fact that that's happened? Is that an over extension of capitalism to the point where, like, we've made our vehicles our identity? Yes. Is it kind of gross? Yes. But it is your identity. And so, like, what is being a Jaguar owner going to say about you if this is the new direction?

[Ranjan Roy]

Yeah, but that's like a lot of liberal people are still sitting on Teslas and I don't know what it says about them right now.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

That might be it. I mean, that might be their play saying, we're going. They're going all electric, right?

[Ranjan Roy]

Yeah.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

A lot of people want to get rid of their Teslas. Maybe this is exactly what Jaguar is doing. Maybe it's not even being subtle about it. Maybe it's saying, f you, Elon Musk, and your association with Trump. Oh, wait, we are the liberal car Maker. We're doing electric cars. RJ Skrin from Rivian, he's like, we're just selling the car makers Jaguar saying liberals, come on in. We don't need to even show you the car. We're selling you an identity hire.

[Ranjan Roy]

Hire the agency Cantrewitz and Roy for more incredible marketing strategy just like this.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

I mean, but we didn't even, we didn't make the strategy. Like I think that that is actually what they're doing.

[Ranjan Roy]

If it is that that is 40.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Marketing from a business.

[Ranjan Roy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

That would be smart.

[Ranjan Roy]

And how do you get people thinking about you or talking about you? Because making a splash in today's attention like landscape is nearly impossible, especially for just like some old brand. They did it.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

The thing is though, I mean, I'm trying to say this without being, being bad, but like liberalism is kind of a damaged brand right now. Sort of.

[Ranjan Roy]

They're still there, there's still. Trump only won 49.9% of the vote. It's. There is a large market of people, I like this. That own a Tesla probably right now. And we're the environmentalist leaning, liberal progressive customer that are looking for an electric. And they're looking at maybe it's the Hyundai Ioniq or the new. I think it's like the Honda Prelude. It's open. None of the other EVs have a. Other than Rivian, which I know in that interview they said they're going to try to make more affordable cars, but right now. Yeah, exactly. And there's an opening here.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Just like what made. Was there something about the Jaguar ad that made it liberal? Was it that it was diverse?

[Ranjan Roy]

See, I honestly don't even remember. I just remember some bright colors. That's it.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Yeah, bright colors. A lot of expressionless people.

[Ranjan Roy]

I get the logo.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

It is a diverse cast of models.

[Ranjan Roy]

Yeah, yeah. The logo redesign, I mean, I think it was more that it didn't show any cars and just looked like just a ridiculous like almost like a Zoolander esque fashion show. Like it. It was ridiculous but. December 2nd at Miami Art Week. Mark your calendars for the unveiling.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Are we going. I think, I think we have at this point gotta take us. So.

[Ranjan Roy]

Hey, we're on board. We're hoping. We're rooting for you.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Yeah, I'm like looking at the type of people that are in. I'm still trying to figure out like what this ad says. I'm looking at the type of people in that ad and I'm just like, it's not. I don't even know if it's about diversity, but maybe it's just the demeanor of these people.

[Ranjan Roy]

No, no, I think it's the looks they're giving the camera. It's the whole thing. It's the whole. Which again, if they're AI create me a video to stir up the Internet using bright lit colors and diverse models. They did it. They did it.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Well, I started this segment not saying that there was any way I could possibly see the business logic and what they've done. I end this segment saying I can see the business logic and what they've done. But this is also one of those things where we're going to see the numbers. Now we have to follow this story, right?

[Ranjan Roy]

Yeah. Now, this is most important story of 20. 20, 25, maybe.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Exactly. All right, everybody, thank you for listening. Ranjan, great to see you. Thanks for being here.

[Ranjan Roy]

See you next week as I'm driving my Jaguar up to Boston to my place.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

That's right. We'll be in our new Jags. Our new Jags.

[Ranjan Roy]

Big Tech.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

Yeah, exactly. I am driving the Rivian. I'm test driving the R1, second generation SUV this weekend. So that'll be.

[Ranjan Roy]

Oh, all right.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

That'll be fun. I'll report back on that. And yep, we got Benioff coming up next Wednesday. And then, Ranjan, you and I are back next Friday.

[Ranjan Roy]

Next Friday. Yep.

[Alex Kantrowitz]

All right, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.