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Will Apple (Finally) Get AI Right At WWDC?, Anthropic’s Worry, Microsoft vs. OpenAI
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- [00:00]
A
Will Apple finally get AI right at WWDC? Anthropic is worried about runaway AI improvement and Microsoft and OpenAI once partners are in head on competition. That's coming up on a Big Technology Podcast Friday Edition right after this. I'm just back from ServiceNow's knowledge 2026 in Las Vegas and the conversations I had there are ones you're going to want to hear. I sat down with their President and CPO Amit Zaveri on the platform strategy, powering enterprise AI Chief People and AI Enablement Officer Jackie Canney and Chief Digital Officer Kelly romack on what AI really means for the workforce. The technical leaders behind ServiceNow's Nvidia partnership on shipping AI at scale and Ulta Beauty on deploying ServiceNow's technology across 1300 stores. If you want to know where enterprise AI is actually headed, not the hype but the real story, you can find these videos on my YouTube channel. Search Alex Kantruitz on YouTube Depending on who you ask, between 80 and 95% of enterprise AI projects fail to get AI to work for you. You don't need more tokens, you need better people. A board pair, powerful proprietary tools with senior engineers who've seen it all. That combination means your project doesn't stall, doesn't drift and doesn't fall. It ships. Whether you're a startup that needs to get to market or an enterprise with complex legacy challenges, Aboard delivers exactly what your business needs Fast. Aboard is your partner for AI transformation. Visit aboard.com and let's build something together. Welcome to Big Technology Podcast Friday Edition where we break down the news in our traditional cool headed and nuanced format. And we have a lot of news to break down for you this week, including a full preview of seemingly everything that's going to happen at wwdc, Apple's big Cornerstone event coming on Monday. We also have news that Anthropic is worried about runaway AI improvement. I'm sure Ranjan is going to buy that hook, line and syncher. And then we're also going to talk About Microsoft and OpenAI Once partners now competing head on. Joining us as always on Fridays to do it is Ranjan Roy of Margins. Ranjan, good to see you.
- [02:01]
B
All right, you already got me there hook, line and sinker.
- [02:05]
A
I was pasting that story into our document and I was with every paragraph like anticipating your reaction saying that it's marketing. So we'll, we'll have an interesting segment coming up.
- [02:16]
B
Our prep doc is just one long opportunity for you to trigger me, Alex. My God, that's theory.
- [02:23]
A
Starting with theory, then go to anthropic, and then I don't know where you stand in Microsoft OpenAI. All right, but let's build some tension here. It's going to be an exciting final segment.
- [02:32]
B
Let's.
- [02:32]
A
Okay, let's build a mission here. Legendary debate. Okay, but seriously, should talk about the Siri thing. I'm actually so. So I'm about to fly out to San Francisco for. Well, I thought it was going to be wwdc. It looks like I am on the band list this year, but anyway.
- [02:49]
B
Wait, really?
- [02:49]
A
I'll be in proximity if. If nothing else.
- [02:53]
B
Wait, wait, hold on. I'm trying to remember. Did you go last year? Were you already.
- [02:58]
A
I have been, yes. I've been to WWDC at least the last two years. So this year, not in my luck. No, no luck. But I'm going to. I'm going to. If you're not Tim anymore, it's John. All right, I'm going to cross my fingers and maybe I'll get in and have a report from you for you from the ground then. But you know what? Maybe you don't even need to be in Cupertino to get the WWDC rundown because it looks like Mark Gurman has like every detail of what Apple is about to announce. And we're going to run all the big announcements that Apple is going to make at WWDC and give you our perspective on it. And I'll start off saying that I read this and left immediately extremely optimistic about where Apple is heading. It seems like the company is finally understanding the way that it can use artificial intelligence in its products and the fact that it doesn't need to build everything. And let me start with. Before we get into the actual announcements, Ranjan, if you will, let me start just with the context here for Apple, because, you know, while we've said that WWDC and the AI work that they're doing is the most important thing the company can do at this moment, at least in the near term. It hasn't been the case. Right. Company is surging right now on the back of iPhone 17 sales. It did 140 plus billion in the first quarter, which is sort of the traditional Q4 for everybody else. 111 billion in the most recent quarter. Its Stock is up 56% over the past year. And this is all pre AI. There's no AI competitor, device. So before we get into this Siri announcement, because we will spend a lot of time on that, let's just Talk about the big framing here. Am I right in thinking that we shouldn't get too crazily concerned for Apple? Think, speaking specifically about the company and the business, about AI, because up until now it hasn't factored.
- [04:54]
B
No, I think Apple still is an iPhone selling machine, even though myself and plenty of others have questioned whether this is actually a sustainable business model. And I have not upgraded since the 15, even though I bought every new iPhone for like a 10 year period. I mean, it's clear the business is healthy, at least on a relative basis. The core businesses, I mean, it's. When I say healthy, it's still just generating ungodly amounts of revenue on a continued basis. So we have to give them that separate from all the, the entire AI conversation. And to their credit, they're doing it without any genuine innovation on the actual product side either in a number of years. So Apple, congratulations on just having us all locked into your ecosystem and continuing to sell us products. My left AirPod keeps buzzing and I'm probably just going to go out and buy the AirPods 3 Pro. So they got us. Do you think it's healthy?
- [05:55]
A
What, the business.
- [05:56]
B
The business.
- [05:56]
A
Absolutely.
- [05:57]
B
Start there.
- [05:57]
A
Yeah, absolutely it is. And by the way, I think you're underrating the 17. I think the 17 is a crazy machine and it's much better than any phone to come before it, so I'm happy to have it. But.
- [06:06]
B
Okay, hold on, sorry. You are saying, do you believe there's been genuine product innovation from Apple? Are you going to stand by that statement that the iPhone 17 is truly a revolutionary product?
- [06:19]
A
No, it's. No. I've always said there are refiners, not revolutionaries under Tim Cook and that's been the case. But they have refined, they've made the camera better, they've made the battery life better, the computing more powerful and through refining all this, they've made a. Yeah. A great device. And by the way, the revolutionary devices, no one's built them. Despite OpenAI trying to do it, despite Meta trying to do it, despite Google trying to do it, despite Amazon trying to do it. We don't have any revolutionary AI computing device yet. It's not here.
- [06:49]
B
I still. The Meta glasses, I genuinely, I consider. Okay, it's not like maybe it's not as magical as when the first iPhone came out, but there's devices out there. I'm gonna put, let me think. Meta glasses, certainly the Apple Watch I will give credit was in its time revolutionary as well. AirPods when they first came out, foldable phones. Right now it's happening just now.
- [07:17]
A
Let me reframe this for both of us. Right, okay.
- [07:19]
B
Okay.
- [07:20]
A
Maybe the revolutionary AI device is going to be the iPhone. And when you look through the announcements, you start to see a different strategy from Apple. The first was, you know, the Apple intelligence rollout two years ago was this big rollout, like, let us dream up what AI could do and sort of put together this visionary, ambitious plan. This is a much more scaled back version of that, but it seems to be at least in accordance with what the technology can do. So let me give you a couple of examples of what's going to happen. This is from the German story. There's a new Siri. It was known as Project Campo. Internally, it sits at the center of Apple's renewed AI strategy. The idea is to transform the assistant from a voice control system to a do it all companion, letting users handle tasks across iOS, iPadOS and Mac OS through the day. It will also be easier to control both in house and outside apps. Using Siri to power this new assistant, Apple is relying on a Gemini model from Google, the company that is both a rival and a longtime partner. In addition to using Google's underlying technology as part of a billion dollar agreement, the company is hosting much of the new Siri on Google servers. Apple has long touted its ability to safeguard user data, so the arrangement may spark privacy. Question. Okay, there's. They are expanding Siri beyond this sort of weird magic trick to actually interface with devices. But now here's the thing. Let me, Let me say this one last thing and then turn it over to you. What I am impressed by with Apple is they are realizing that they have an interface advantage. They own the mobile operating system, at least for iPhone users, and they're going to use that to flex and say, all right, AI device. You want an AI device, we'll build you an AI device. We'll build it right within our operating system. From the Gurman story, Apple. Apple plans to let users swipe down from the top center of the iPhone to launch a new search or ask interface. The new command will open a revamped experience designed for getting things done or searching by typing through voice. Though voice control remains an option in the search or ask page, users can launch apps, start text messages, ask about the weather, add calendar appointments, sift through notes, trigger shortcuts within apps, or search the web using AI, that to me seems the right way to do it,
- [09:39]
B
I think. All right, let me try to be not political here, but let me try to be nuanced. This is the most basic AI stuff imaginable. This isn't even. This is like the most basic user experience stuff imaginable. Like, yes, we are all able to dictate to our phones. I know Apple's native dictation is bad and I use Whisper Flow. I do most of my search via AI as well. Again, but I do recognize, as you said, the iPhone could be the AI kind of like interaction layer. And there's still a lot of people who don't use AI like really in an integrated manner in their day. And Apple still has that opportunity. But none. And maybe it's good. None of this feels. All of this stuff feels like stuff that is so basic to me that it's kind of shocking that this feels like an announcement, but maybe that's actually good because that they can actually get it done rather than just having Bella Ramsey on an ad two years early.
- [10:45]
A
Okay, so I know it sounds underwhelming and, you know, as the guy who just got disinvited from wwdc, you know, I'm far not the first one to take Apple's side on this one, but let me explain to you why I think that this makes sense. Okay? Alexander Wang, the guy who's running Meta Super Intelligence Labs, was at the Bloomberg Tech conference this week. Whatever it was he said, this is a quote from him. Ultimately, what we're really excited to build for the world are the best personal agents, right? The thing is, to get to Meta's agent, you have to open up your iPhone and tap on some agent functionality. We've talked in this conversation already about a swipe down in the operating system being something that will immediately take you to Apple. Apple's AI experience, where you can search and ask, that's going to be powered by the way, they're going to bring in lots of different models. So there's going to be a model switcher that will enable you to pick the model you want. And at the top, I talked about how what is Siri going to be a do it all companion, letting users handle tasks across iOS and control in house and outside apps using Siri. This is the vision of the personal agent lived out within iOS even if Meta's is better, even if OpenAI is better, they're not going to have access to the operating system. And that gives Apple a chance, building on top of Google technology, which isn't shabby, to sort of use the force of its advantage and maybe if not win, at least factor heavily into this AI race.
- [12:23]
B
All right, I'll give you That I mean just the value of inertia, the value of being where customers already and users already are. There is tremendous value, especially at like a mass scale in the general population with AI. I think there is a huge opportunity there. And actually I'll admit I have started using Google's follow on AI mode where you do a Google search and then you ask questions after and I almost feel like dirty doing it. It feels like the most kind of just hacky, clunky. It's just not a good looking interface. But I actually have started using it more just because I still will every now and then go into Google search to quickly search something. So the value of being there I think is good where I would still caution and actually back to that example around meta and personal agents where Apple I think is potentially getting into trouble is even. And I honestly hated this paragraph where it's like customers will be able to do more advanced tasks like telling Siri to write an email by giving it topics and information and asking it to pull the message together. Like come on, that is ever. That's GPT 3.5 right there.
- [13:37]
A
But where baked into the operating system?
- [13:40]
B
No, but here's where it's going to get technologically challenging. Having spent the last year and a half building agentic systems at Rider, I know where things can like break and where things are more stable and easier. The idea that you're going to be able to access any app on your phone and data across all these various systems is actually a very technologically challenging thing. I think that's probably what's held Apple back so far. Like if they just limited it to like it can't even be email because then does Gmail. Gmail owns your email side of it. They keep talking about. They're like for the first time users can ask Siri when they're available for appointments before scheduling something. Does that have to mean that your ICAL is connected to your Google Calendar? If you're a Google Calendar customer, just managing that data, knowing which app to call related to a specific task is a lot easier when it's a small universe of options. If they're really going to kind of own those kind of data routing systems across your entire phone, that's actually a hard technological problem to solve and can get adds a lot of unpredictability. So do you, do you think they're going to pull it off or, or how do you. How do you think they roll it out? Do you think they do it? We're just going to have email and calendar appointments on day one. Do you think I can pull up a YouTube video via prompt, Via voice prompt? How do you think they're going to do it?
- [15:15]
A
Okay, so those are two separate questions, and I think they're both worth answering separately. So, you know, the question is whether they can. The first question is whether they can pull this off. And, you know, it's interesting because I was reading through the announcement. Here's another one that they have in. Well, it's not the announcement, it's just German, but German's that good. Here's another one. The company is planning to allow users to throw multiple commands at Siri at once. The feature will let people combine requests, for example, asking Siri to check the weather, creating a calendar appointment and send a message all within a single prompt. And I read that and I was like, this type of things that they're. These things that they're talking about, they're catching up to where the technology is. Right? When you're in ChatGPT, it does have an understanding, or in Claude, it does have an understanding of, like, it can handle multiple prompts at once. It kind of knows where to go. So if Apple can mirror that, then that makes a lot of sense. The question is, will they be able to. So before we get to how they're rolling it out, I think you're really keen to hit on this because a really, really incis. To hit on this because ultimately it seems like the ambition is not out of step with where the technology is. The question is, can they execute? Do you think they can?
- [16:30]
B
I. What do you think?
- [16:32]
A
First, the only answer I have is they haven't shown us they can.
- [16:37]
B
Okay, I think that was a good answer. That was a good one.
- [16:40]
A
But the vision is not ridiculous.
- [16:42]
B
It's not. I agree. It's not ridiculous. It's not ridiculous. Any company, within reason of their scale and history, should execute on this. But I like how you put that. They haven't shown us yet that they can.
- [17:00]
A
So then what's your gut check in terms of whether they can or they can't? You're the one that's been asking for better Siri for forever.
- [17:07]
B
I want them to. That's why it's like, I don't want to say an abusive relationship, but it's been so many times I've wanted to believe in them so many times. Starting with Bella Ramsey, kind of like ignoring, not listening to her dinner companion. But still, I think writing an email to them or whatever that ad was two years ago, I mean, the fact that they actually positioned themselves as being able to provide this as a service two years ago, I think actually now it's even making me think how fundamentally they misunderstood the actual technology back then. I just hope. I want them to. I don't think they can. Right.
- [17:50]
A
I don't think they can. So the question isn't this is progress for Apple. This is what I'm kind of saying. They have made progress, they understand the technology. They're actually showing us a vision that aligns with the technology's capabilities. And they probably have Google, whether it's forward deployed engineers or whatever you want to call them, or Demis himself, they sure have Google in there working with them to ensure that this is deployed successfully. Because it's Google's reputation on the line as well. Google doesn't want to be part of a failure here. So the execution part is a big question. But at least this is something that's a target that is reachable.
- [18:28]
B
Wait, actually, how do you think that Google Apple relationship works? And the reason I ask is I have a Pixel 9. It's not a burner phone. I just got it at some point, I think relatively inexpensively and I wanted to have an Android phone as well for testing. Like the way Google Assistant is integrated into the overall phone is all of this. It's done all of this for the last year and it does it well. Even Alexa plus on the Echo show does all of this really well. So it should be table stakes. It's where the technology is today. But is Google incentivized to make this work? Because.
- [19:08]
A
Well, I don't even. Not even looking at the agreement you would imagine they were. They would be because it's Gemini's name consumption there.
- [19:15]
B
Well, and it's consumption at a massive scale. Like actually is Apple going to pay Google on a consumption basis the more people use it?
- [19:26]
A
No, sorry. The stories seem to indicate that they basically distilled their version of Siri from Gemini.
- [19:35]
B
Okay, well but then the better this gets, the worse it is for Google's hardware business. Like this still represents. Again, I had not thought about moving from Apple and I get so frustrated with Siri that I looked up the pixel fold a number of times and I'm not ready to drop 1800 bucks and completely remove myself of the Apple ecosystem. But like that is a threat to them and that is an opening for Google. But I guess basically they just signed away the model kind of adaptation rights to Apple, but beyond that they don't really care is what we're saying.
- [20:15]
A
Yeah, I mean ultimately, if You're Google, right? And this becomes. Are you asking if this becomes a defining feature of the phone? Is Google hurting themselves by selling this to Apple?
- [20:24]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [20:25]
A
Yes and no. I mean, yes, they're going to power, like, they're, they're, they're our rivals, right? It's like number one and number two in terms of phone makers. But they also have great power over Apple. Right, because they're going to make another more powerful model and Apple's going to want to distill that and they're going to make another more powerful.
- [20:42]
B
No, that's true.
- [20:43]
A
And Apple's going to want to distill that. And at a certain point, if they see that, oh, we have a chance to, like, decimate the iPhone, I don't think they're going to be making all these deals. So it's great power in the hands of Google.
- [20:54]
B
I like that. I like that.
- [20:56]
A
Okay, so now that I've made the case that Apple is thinking the right way and has a good chance of being able to execute this, even though we haven't seen them do it before. So we're going to, you know, hold our praise until we see it. There is a disconcerting line in Gurman's report that I, I'm going to read to you because you asked about the rollout and then get your reaction. Apple has labeled the new Siri as a beta and preview internally, suggesting that the Assistant won't be marketed as a fully finished software when it's released later this year. The original Siri held the same description for two years. There is also the possibility of a wait list or some sort of people who want to have some sort of people of some sort for people who want to try new features and approach. An approach used with the initial launch of Apple, the Apple intelligence platform in 2024. Your reaction?
- [21:49]
B
Oh, God, I was just getting excited. And this. Okay, hold on. The upside, I would prefer they actually more strongly take this approach rather than having a heavy, glossy marketing campaign that indicates that everything is perfect. But this is just giving me PTSD of that first Apple Intelligence launch again, I think nearly two years ago. I remember sitting there and like enabling Apple Intelligence on my phone, thinking it was going to do something. And it really is one of the worst kind of product rollouts. I don't want to say in history, but it's been pretty bad. So I was just starting to get excited that maybe they had a really coherent strategy and were believing the execution. But I'm going to wait and see. I'M in a latency and hope, but that just made me a little more uncertain. Do you think? Does this make you more or less excited?
- [22:49]
A
Less excited. I mean, I definitely held that out. To caveat at the end, I would say if I were to sum up my perspective on this, it is three things. One, AI doesn't matter as much to Apple as, you know, the narrative makes. It seems like at least in the short term, we're really going to have to wait for a AI device to really matter for Apple to start to say that their failures on AI are going to really stack up and add to anything. Now, that's not. That doesn't mean they're going to be safe forever, but they're at least safe for now. So that's point one. Point two is, I think that the positive sign, like I said before, is that they are actually building to the technology's capabilities as opposed to like something they dreamed up, you know, in a conference room in Cupertino together. But then there's the worry. And the worry is the execution. And while they should be in a better position to execute this time, that line about the. The wait list worries me. Worries me for sure.
- [23:54]
B
Do you think the failure of execution has been. What's the term? Is it Dutch disease? Where, like, it's where you have oil or. Oh, man.
- [24:07]
A
Natural resource curse.
- [24:09]
B
Okay, it is Dutch disease. And originally it was around the massive influx of foreign currency. But yeah, the idea, it's like a resource curse that when you have some specific resource, it kind of distorts your ability to kind of develop other parts of the economy within a nation.
- [24:27]
A
It shouldn't be because. Oh, go ahead, go ahead.
- [24:29]
B
Well, no, I mean, those iPhones are still selling. They haven't. I mean, maybe you believe they have dramatically improved. I would tend to argue that it's been. Yeah, at least you said refining, not revolutionizing. But again, when you're selling iPhones at that clip and everyone keeps buying them, and I'm about to go spend 250 bucks to replace an AirPod, like, you just don't have the internal energy and incentive to actually build these kind of things.
- [25:00]
A
If you look throughout big tech, you will see companies with natural resources and the ones that these tech giants have been able to stay on top because they haven't sat on their laurels and they've realized they have a natural resource, but they still need to innovate. That goes to everyone, for instance.
- [25:17]
B
Greatest natural monopoly of all time. Exactly.
- [25:20]
A
And you can see that they're. They. I mean, They've been big on AI for the last decade. So to me it's not, you know, maybe it's part natural resource curse for Apple, but I shouldn't, shouldn't. I don't think we should wave it away as saying it's just a natural resource curse. I think it is a cultural issue and I've been on record about this for a long time. The culture of Apple is very high on its own supply and they believe that the culture that they've built is responsible for the creation of the iPhone. And while it was, that also came from Steve Jobs. And so they've remained this refine Jobs idea culture even though they don't have Jobs anymore. And they are sort of so happy about the way that they do things or proud of the way they do things that they will not try any other model. That's why.
- [26:15]
B
Yeah, you're. I mean, yeah, Google completely disproves my point, but I still my One of my favorite hot takes is that Google's entire AI transformation success can be traced back to the fact that Sundar was a McKinsey alum and looks at everything in terms of like organizational design and change management. So basically, if Tim Cook was McKinsey, they'd be fine. I stand by it. This is a pro McKinsey podcast.
- [26:45]
A
Now, it is interesting because the McKinsey model of like we talked about the engine room and farming it out to the product areas. I just spoke about this with MG on Monday. It might help make the specific products better. But the question is, can you build a unified assistant with that model? Because you still have this centralized division working with the product areas within Google like Gmail and Maps and Search. But if we're going to move towards a quote unquote super app, you know, you're going to need these product areas to subseed their egos to sort of make that centralized app work.
- [27:23]
B
Right.
- [27:23]
A
Again, like you were talking previously, what's the cutting edge now? It's learning what to call, right? It's learning what systems to tap into. And if you have a lot of systems that, you know, sort of prefer that people spend time within them or prefer priority over others, it's going to be tough in the centralized assistant world.
- [27:40]
B
On the topic of super app, in a bit we're going to get to one of the other stories where we'll discuss it more and I have some gripes. But one of the most interesting parts of this was one of the biggest additions this year is a dedicated Siri app for holding conversations and continuing past chats, users can jump into the Siri app by pulling down on a result. So basically dedicated Siri app running conversations, basically your chatgpt ish style assistant. Do you think Siri is going to become the super app one to two years from now?
- [28:18]
A
I think that's Apple's ambition. I mean that's part of the ambition for sure.
- [28:21]
B
Do you think there is a slide deck Siri, the super app, super app somewhere, some super app Siri probably.
- [28:30]
A
I mean the truth is iOS is a super app, right? So these are apps become operating systems of their own. Right. That to me is like the real, the real question in terms of the viability of Apple's business model moving forward. It's if the chatbot and the AI becomes the operating system, what's your answer to it? So you would imagine that they're thinking about that. Exactly.
- [28:50]
B
Super app theory. Super app theory.
- [28:53]
A
Okay, so we'll obviously watch and come back next week and talk a little bit about what we've seen. In the meantime we should definitely talk about about anthropic telling us that AI may be close to recursive self improvement and maybe it's time to slow it all down. And then of course, Microsoft and OpenAI, once partners, now starting to battle it out for the crown that's coming up right after this. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I want pieces that feel lighter and more comfortable but still put together. That's where Kintz comes in. They focus on well made essentials and and breathable linen and soft organic cotton. The kind of basics you will keep coming back to. Everything at Kintz is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories, cutting out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. Personally, while I'm moving between air conditioning and summer heat, a lightweight zip down sweatshirt from Kintz has been a life changer. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to Kintz.com BigTech for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com BigTech for free shipping and 365 day returns. Kints.com BigTech
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C
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- [33:14]
B
I can't even right now. I think one of the things that it is funny, I feel we're at the point of the market cycle where I'm going to be citing Ed Zitron more, who has been quite a bear. And I still vehemently disagree with him on the potential of the technology itself. But I liked he had said after this announcement is like, get some fucking new material, please. I mean, it's just like we have heard this over and over again. I talked a lot about this a few weeks ago when the Mythos announcement was so. And developer eating a sandwich in the park and receiving a message that had broken out of containment was a very clear kind of PR coordinated message. Push my question to Anthropic is as they are steamrolling ahead and obviously, like to me, one of the most interesting stories of the next two to three months is who gets out first and when. SpaceX anthropic OpenAI how do they get out? It's this rush to get out to the public markets. If you want to slow things down, you can. You don't need to raise another $65 billion at a $950 valuation and then start kind of leaking that you're S1 or I guess actually filing your S1. And like, if this is truly a risk to humanity, that can pose significant societal risks. And like, wouldn't you stop? Why wouldn't you? What do you think it is? Do you think it's just. Do you think Dario believes this? Do you think there's a large group of people that do believe this, but then the marketers and business folks and growth folks override them? Do you think this. I know, I mean, we go over this a lot, but where's your head right now? As we get closer to the Anthropic IPO of what really is behind this messaging and what do people really believe?
- [35:19]
A
All right, first of all, I think that we should sort of tackle the core message here. And would you, before we go into what's going on within the company, would you agree at least that the AI coding tools from Anthropic have gotten way better and enabled people to do much
- [35:35]
B
more six months ago? Yes. I think the 4.8 was actually like, kind of like a pretty big dud. Okay.
- [35:43]
A
But the line is pointing Upward.
- [35:46]
B
No, no, of course. But none of that. Whatever exists in the last one month existed in their line of sight six to eight months ago. If that was truly the case, one would hope that decent people would be like, let's figure this out. Let's actually slow things down again one to two months before your actual IPO to continue this. Maybe we should have. Again, in terms of the actual qualification of risk of overall AI, I think it's just a separate conversation from this.
- [36:27]
A
For the sake of argument. You could argue. You could argue double argument anyway, one day.
- [36:36]
B
Any statement that starts with that. I'm excited for that.
- [36:40]
A
They did slow down to a degree by deciding not to release Mythos to everybody. And a lot of this coding improvement has happened because of Mythos. Internally.
- [36:50]
B
You're saying that. Okay, so you're. You're still. For the sake of argument, you are arguing that that was the official slowdown. I don't know. Like, is it still raising this much money, pushing ahead with this intensity? Like, organizationally, like, one decision? Maybe Mythos is this be all, end all, God model that, like, will destroy humanity.
- [37:21]
A
And they have no one saying that. Maybe it's on par with somebody. Maybe it's not, like, you know, so special. Maybe some of the latest OpenAI models can do similar things. But what it's trying to do is set this tone. That's like, you know, if you can use this model to hack through things, we should be careful about the way we roll it out.
- [37:42]
B
No, I appreciate that idea, but still. Then you don't roll it out, as we had discussed. Like, then you don't have a big press announcement with named partners. And then now there's reporting that they're apparently working with the nsa, and again, they have the greatest PR and comps team in the world in terms of, like, understanding which stories can actually make it into the press. You wouldn't do that. You would actually, in the background, coordinate and kind of work with everyone who is needed to. To try to actually solve this problem. It wouldn't be a PR release with a large consortium named. That's why even that if it were real, I still think it would.
- [38:28]
A
It.
- [38:29]
B
It would be handled in a more in a different way, like, if it was real, because I. I would not. How would you handle it? You have only because.
- [38:38]
A
Go ahead. Go ahead.
- [38:39]
B
No, no. Let's say you got a new model. You suddenly, Alex is sitting there in a Brooklyn apartment, has a bunch of as a. Your own colossus set up, and suddenly you train cantrew it's 5.7. Suddenly you're like, oh, my God. This kid has the potential to pose significant societal risks. What do you do next?
- [39:04]
A
First of all, if I had a colossus set up in my Brooklyn apartment, I guarantee you the morning after I set it up, my wife would have every single one of those servers on the curb because we would finally have space in our apartment. So I promised you the next day there would be racks and racks of Vera Rubins on the curb in Brooklyn. I promise you, it doesn't matter how much they're worth. Okay, so now what would I do? And this is, this is what I was going to say. Only because you're so myopic about this, wouldn't you do exactly what they're doing? So this is the argument, right? The argument is if you are, why keep pushing forward if you feel the technology is potentially dangerous? You keep pushing forward because you feel the technology while you feel the technology is dangerous because you, if you are building the leading models, you actually have a say in the way that the deployment works. People will listen to you. If anthropic was grok, was like meta right now and had like, you know, whatever their, their, their latest, you know, model is that they're delaying, by the way, and they said, hey, you know, guys in the front, maybe slow it down, no one would listen to them. The argument is you only really have influence on the way this works if you are leading. And the way that you do that is you're loud about it.
- [40:27]
B
So you are taking the I alone can fix it approach.
- [40:32]
A
I'm not, I'm not. First of all, I'm not taking.
- [40:34]
B
This is you. This is you and your colossus and you have just made a significant breakthrough.
- [40:39]
A
Oh, put this on me. I was trying to talk you through the other side of this argument.
- [40:44]
B
I like how in this thought experiment you have just turned into this world like this James Bondian villain. But continue.
- [40:51]
A
No, I promise you, my real world experience with. Of this would be waking up in a Tony Soprano bathrobe and walking out, getting the newspaper and seeing like black walls next to the fire hydrant. I promise you. Okay.
- [41:04]
B
And that was actually. That slows down the destruction of humanity and that's why she did it for you.
- [41:10]
A
That's right. So thank you for that.
- [41:12]
B
Thank you. But.
- [41:13]
A
No, but seriously. Yeah. I mean, what, what is your. I just want to get your response to that argument that you, you stay in the lead so people listen to you and you're loud because you want to have influence over the process, my
- [41:28]
B
response would be, they have been saying this since the beginning. And I do, I do think there is a moment that they might have believed it. But no matter who is in the lead, Open AI and Anthropic, Sam and Dario. But now the entire organizations, actually OpenAI has pulled back from it, you can see pretty purposefully. But this idea that this technology is so incredibly dangerous, yet I will continue to push ahead at full steam, has always been kind of the narrative and it's helped them tremendously. I mean, have you ever heard Sundar say that? He said it's fire, but. Which would be funny hearing.
- [42:09]
A
No, you haven't. But obviously Sundar's perspective is going to be different than theirs.
- [42:14]
B
Why? Why?
- [42:17]
A
Well, I guess maybe obviously is the wrong word, but Google has always been more capitalistic, wouldn't you say? I mean, they removed don't be evil. Right. Like, they started that way. They became a normal company.
- [42:31]
B
Oh, you're buying into it, Alex. You're buying it. Raising $65 billion at a $950 billion valuation is realistic as it gets.
- [42:41]
A
No, okay, no, you're right. You're right. And, and let me now. I was saving this, but you've now sort of forced me to spit it out.
- [42:48]
B
Let's do it.
- [42:49]
A
Speaking of Google, the mo. Okay, I learned a lot from Jeff Hinton when we sat down in that interview is on the feed from. On from the Wednesday show. The thing that will probably stay with me the longest from Hinton is not him saying AI is conscious, although I thought that was really interesting. It was our discussion about safety and particularly whether Anthropic would be able to pursue its safety mission while on the public market. And as Hinton points out, when you ipo, you have a legal obligation to your shareholders to maximize profit and not to maximize AI safety. And I just don't see how it adds up where Anthropic continues to pursue the safety mission while it's legally required to maximize profit for shareholders.
- [43:34]
B
Yeah, but you also have a legal obligation to not destroy humanity. I mean, again, like that's. That's a hyperbolic statement. But like, I mean, what side are you on?
- [43:44]
D
Right?
- [43:44]
B
No, no, no, no, no, no. But it's. It's like again, if you can be Philip Morris turned, Altria is a public company but still has to abide by, you know, I guess those are actual regulations and they're not self imposed. But like, still in 2026, the whole corporations is good. Everyone kind of moved past that. But like, still, I think if you have a fundamental technology that can pose significant societal risks, Investors aren't. Shouldn't like that. If that were true.
- [44:23]
A
Okay, let's just.
- [44:24]
B
That presents a risk. That presents.
- [44:26]
A
Let's give an example. Let's talk through an example. All right. Anthropic is public. It has mythos. OpenAI has just released, like, a dynamic coding model. Right. And, you know, yes, there's a cost benefit analysis. Yes, it might lead to more hacks, but it also will end up, you know, providing Anthropic with the ability to grow faster than OpenAI and head off this threat. Couldn't there be shareholder lawsuits if it decides to hold back Mythos because there's, you know, it's not an end of the world situation. It's okay. There's a few more cyber hacks that we want to be mindful about. It becomes much more difficult to do that when you're on the public market.
- [45:04]
B
Are you saying that OpenAI presented the risks of Mythos as just a few more cyber hacks?
- [45:12]
A
No. You're saying Anthropic.
- [45:13]
B
Sorry, Anthropic. Anthropic, yeah. Is just a few more cyber hacks. Not a big deal. Maybe your Squarespace site goes down a couple of times.
- [45:25]
A
First of all, it's up to the shareholders. And second, it becomes. Wouldn't you agree, it becomes much harder to hold something like that back if you're on the public market. That's all I'm saying.
- [45:37]
B
I think it brings a lot more attention to it. And actually, the good thing is it would actually force more transparency around the reality of the situation.
- [45:45]
A
You just took my side. That's what I was trying to say. The whole show.
- [45:51]
B
No, but I don't think it's. It forces them. It adds, I don't think, the legality of a shareholder lawsuit because Anthropic, in a competitive battle, does not release the model that actually they have marketed themselves, presents significant risks and had to, like, national security, like, at every level. I think shareholders, the idea that they would sue, that you did not release that to the general public when a competitor was being careless and callous, I don't think would happen. I don't know. And nowadays anything's possible in the financial markets, but.
- [46:30]
A
So let me see if I can. I think there is consistency to your position here, and I think I reacted to something different in terms of your transparency. Is the transparency from the company, not transparency in the industry? Fair enough. Is your position that right now, Anthropic, telling us about all these, you know, models and by the way, I mean, we've sort of kind of talked over it, but they did then after saying that the models could recursively self improve, say, it might be a good idea for Frontier building to pause for a bit. Okay, so is your position that them doing this building and saying this is actually marketing and actually they are a capitalist company, you know, as everybody else.
- [47:17]
B
Yeah.
- [47:17]
A
And don't, don't believe that stuff. It's marketing. And when they go public, being public will still, you know, even though they are, you know, this a company that does good marketing and is trying to maximize profit share, maximize shareholder value and doesn't have a special thing about privacy, a special thing about safety, they'll still be required to act with safety in mind. So it's not inconsistent?
- [47:44]
B
Yes, I think so. I think, I think we, we've, we've aligned again.
- [47:49]
A
Well, I'm just repeating your, your point. I will, I will say it's a valid argument.
- [47:53]
B
Are you? Okay, okay.
- [47:54]
A
I'm not ready to agree just yet, but I think it's a valid argument.
- [47:57]
B
But I want to bring it back to the beginning. Do you think the average anthropic employee is genuinely believes they own and like operate technology and in their own words that pose unprecedented cybersecurity risks severe enough to cause widespread disruption to the global financial system and critical infrastructure? A little more dramatic than a few cyber hacks.
- [48:24]
A
Okay, I have this. I, I, let's end with this. I have this actually from the Wall Street Journal story, a quote from one of our favorite sources, friend of the program, I guess he's been on once. Ethan Malik, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Whart and an influential scholar on AI transformation. Here's what he told the Wall Street Journal. While some anthropic critics see fluff and marketing in their safety pronouncements, many within the company are true believers. AI labs are a mix of things, said Malik. There is a trillion dollar company with all the normal trillion dollar company stuff like marketing teams and lawyers. There is a core of researchers who are just building the next models. And then there is a set of people who are philosopher kings and concerned about the future and what comes next. And they're all in conflict with each other at times. I think that's about as good of an explanation as you're going to get.
- [49:14]
B
We just talked about this. We've been talking about this for months. Ethan just, he just made it all make sense to me. Is this coexistence book going to be about this concept, this idea oh, so
- [49:28]
A
he has a book, AI Coexistence, coming out in the fall, according to the story. I don't think it's going to be about how these people coexist within anthropic. I think it's going to be about us coexisting with AI. But hopefully we can bring him on the show and get him to talk about just coexistence.
- [49:44]
B
Let's coexist together.
- [49:47]
A
We shall. Oh, speaking of coexistence. Well, that was a beautiful segue. Can Microsoft and OpenAI coexist? Microsoft has been on like the weirdest press tour this week. I don't know if you've paid attention to it, but they had this build event where they announced a bunch of their AI announcements and the core thing was like, hey look, you know, we are, we're not wedded to OpenAI anymore, so we can just go do our stuff and we're going to build like the best AI models. But a lot of it was like them talking about like how like we know. I mean, I guess you want to acknowledge that you're behind, just like Google did recently with the coding apps. But they really got taken to the cleaners in a couple of these pieces. My favorite line was one in the Verge. Let's see. For years Microsoft AI business leaned hard on its early and exclusive partnership with OpenAI. But the drama filled marriage slowly devolved into a situationship and the pair effectively separated in late April. Though Microsoft is still OpenAI's primary cloud partner for now, this year's build had the vibe of a freshly singled divorcee posting a thirst trap on Instagram. It's always fun to be at developer conferences and great times of change, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella said on stage Tuesday, adding that events like this are about coming to grips with the new opportunity. And to do that, Microsoft has basically said, all right, we are ready to go and compete head to head with OpenAI. The goal is to prove that we can become one of the top four labs in the world, mustafa Suleiman, the head of one of Microsoft AI divisions, told the Verge. He said there's three labs that matter, Google, DeepMind, OpenAI and Anthropic. We are not one of them at the moment and that's always been my intention.
- [51:28]
B
I just love that Meta is not on there, even though, I mean we kind of know it. But still it's always interesting to see it place that definitively. I've been thinking about this though, the same way Apple solely by owning the end user real estate with the iPhone has an opportunity. Microsoft certainly. I mean, we hear about this all the time. Everyone has copilot the tens of millions, hundreds, millions of people. Whatever it is, like, if they figure it out, it's interesting. Do you think there's a world where Microsoft and Apple a year from now are interesting in this, I'm not even
- [52:10]
A
going to say
- [52:12]
B
are winning, but even the way Google, within a year, the span of a year became a player. Do you think Microsoft has a chance? Do you think Microsoft.
- [52:24]
A
Definitely. Yeah, sure, why not? I mean, they, they have, like you said, they have Office, they have access to OpenAI's IP. I don't think they're like, well, here's a better question. I mean, like, first of all, okay, let me answer your question. Then I'll ask my question to sort of end this. So I think there's a chance and they have the, like you said, the products. I think there's a chance for Apple. They have the products. If you're Microsoft, why do you care about building foundational AI models? I seriously don't get it.
- [52:53]
B
I think it's because of Suleiman. I think it's like, this is one of those things organizationally. Like, he's there, he's not there to like build a new copilot product feature. And my favorite still is in the most Microsoft way, which kind of Google seems to have moved past. Like they have this new thing, Microsoft IQ, but there's also work IQ, then there's Fabric IQ, then there's Foundry IQ, then there's WebIQ. Just the way they kind of roll out and name products is comical at times. But I think that's the stuff that that layer is not interesting. He was brought on and he has power within the organization to be a player. Okay, I think it's that simple. Do you think it's.
- [53:38]
A
But I want to, I want to dig a level deeper on this. All right, so he was brought on to do this. Why strategically, is there a reason for Microsoft to do this? Can you think of one?
- [53:48]
B
I don't think there is. In fact, I think the Apple. Hold on. So I can tell you, model routing has become so dominant in conversations in my world now it went from just, you have to have the latest frontier model and they're all encompassing. And within the span of two months, everyone is like, find the right model for the right problem model, cost optimization, tokenomics. So if I'm Microsoft, I actually agree. I don't think that's the right approach. I think like, you know what? Let them all battle it out. Apple over there is going to suddenly make Siri a powerhouse because it's going to be called the best model at the time. And we're all going to forget about Bella Ramsey's ad and maybe Microsoft has a. Has a chance to.
- [54:42]
A
But okay, let me give one, one reason why they might do it. Satya Nadella is speaking to Ben Thompson in Stratecheri. So Ben Thompson tells Satya Nadella that OpenAI is a major tenant on Azure. He goes, they're a major tenant. But let's face it, face it, Anthropic over time, or OpenAI over time will build their own. It makes sense. Pretty sure that's talking about a cloud service. And OpenAI has talked about building its own cloud service. And so ultimately, if you're Microsoft, you're going to compete with OpenAI. So OpenAI can build the servers which you have for Azure and then put the AI model on top of them. The only way to compete with that is to have your own foundational models. Maybe that's the reason.
- [55:27]
B
Okay. I mean, I still don't buy it, though.
- [55:30]
A
But why not?
- [55:32]
B
I don't know.
- [55:33]
A
Like, if OpenAI Cloud. OpenAI makes OpenAI AI Cloud, and you can't answer that right, then maybe you do want to build your own models.
- [55:41]
B
That's a big if.
- [55:43]
A
That is a big if.
- [55:44]
B
I mean, a lot of ambition. It is, actually.
- [55:46]
A
Satya Nadella believes it's a possibility.
- [55:48]
B
Wait, that is actually interesting because it's funny, like heading into IPO season, like hot IPO summer with anthropic OpenAI and everybody SpaceX. No one has actually talked about the AI Cloud in terms of OpenAI's potential business model. That was like a passing comment from Sam. Like, do you think Satya really believes that or has some information? I don't know, like, the fact that he's even addressing that is kind of shocking to me.
- [56:18]
A
Very interesting. Yeah. So sorry I had that. I put that in the duck and forgot about it. But that, to me, is what you might.
- [56:23]
B
That's the story. That's a story.
- [56:25]
A
Funny enough, none of the report. I don't. I didn't see any reporters outside and, you know, bring that up and make that connection. I mean, I guess Thompson was the best at getting it out, but still like the conversation.
- [56:36]
B
What does Satya know? What is such. I mean, he's got to know something.
- [56:41]
A
He has all their IP till 2032, so.
- [56:43]
B
Yeah.
- [56:45]
A
All right, well. Well, folks, forgive my voice this week. I just completely blew it out at The Beer Authority next to port Authority on 42nd street in New York on Wednesday night, watching the next beat the Spurs. And we're about to head into Friday night, and I think I'm gonna let what's left. What's left of it go. So maybe it's a good thing I'm not going to be on site at wwdc. I won't be able to speak.
- [57:09]
B
I. I'm sitting here looking down at Madison Square garden from the 18th floor of Penn Plaza. And it's. It's. There's a lot of people out there, even though they're not playing here. There's blue and orange as far as the eye can see.
- [57:25]
A
Are you a Celtics fan?
- [57:27]
B
I am. I'm rooting for the Knicks right now. I'm out of New York sports teams. Like, there's no part of me that could ever come around to the Yankees, Giants or Jets, but I don't know the Knicks, especially this team. I mean, you can't hate. And they've. I'm not saying I'm bandwagoning fully, but I'm certainly rooting for them. But as a general fan of the NBA, I mean, these are the. I can't root against either of these teams. And it's just good to watch.
- [57:59]
A
So. I'm enjoying such a fun story.
- [58:01]
B
Yeah.
- [58:01]
A
Yeah. So that's. That's. I don't know about you. That's my weekend. Tonight, yell at the TV for three hours straight. Tomorrow, wake up, get the newspaper and see a whole stack of data center servers on the curb. Sunday flight at San Francisco only to not be let into wwdc. I'm excited.
- [58:19]
B
I think. Wait, did you. Hold on, I'm just gonna. There was that story that Nvidia is gonna pay people to, like, build data centers in their house or something.
- [58:27]
A
I saw that.
- [58:29]
B
Sign us up, Jensen. We're ready. We're ready. Actually, no, Alex is not ready.
- [58:33]
A
I would. You would find my cold body on the sidewalk in the morning, One of those in the backyard that we don't have?
- [58:40]
B
Yeah, I think New York apartment owner holders are probably last on that list.
- [58:46]
A
Yeah, we can. We can pass on the backyard server. All right, Ranjan, have a great weekend, man. See you next week. And folks, Ranjan and I are going to be doing the show live at the big technology summit on June 18th. I think it's probably the last time I'll mention it until you hear some of the episodes because we're going to post them on the feed and be in Separate Francisco at thecommonwealthclubsummit.bigtechnology.com we're just about sold out. Thank you to everybody who signed up. It's been pretty overwhelming the response that we've gotten and we're gonna have one hell of a day out there in San Francisco. So stoked to be doing that with you, Ranjan, and excited and yeah, it's gonna be great. And I think we'll leave it there. So thanks everybody for listening and watching and we'll see you next time on BIG Technology Podcast Par le tu francais
- [59:30]
E
hablas espanol par l' italiano if you've used Babbel, you would Babbel's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 50 85% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com acast spelled b a b b e l.com acast rules and restrictions may apply.
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D
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