Dead Fish Tell No Tales: Part 2 | 3

Summary

Big Time Podcast Summary: "Dead Fish Tell No Tales: Part 2 | 3"

Introduction

In the third episode of Big Time, titled "Dead Fish Tell No Tales: Part 2," host Steve Buscemi delves deeper into the notorious cheating scandal that rocked the Lake Erie walleye fishing tournaments. Produced by Campside Media and Piece of Work Entertainment, this episode unpacks the elaborate scheme orchestrated by duo Chase Kaminski and Jacob Runyon, exploring the ramifications of their actions on the competitive fishing community.

The Cheating Scandal Unfolds

The episode begins with a vivid recounting of the events from September 30, 2022, when Chase Kaminski and Jacob Runyon were declared winners of the Lake Erie walleye trail championship. Suspicion arose when tournament director Jason Fisher noticed anomalies in the winning catch—five walleye that appeared unusually heavy.

Jason Fisher expresses his initial confusion:

"[00:11] Jason Fisher: I knew that there was something wrong."
"[01:13] Jason Fisher: I'm like, oh, my God. There's typically not hard objects in the belly of a fish."

Upon closer inspection, Fisher discovers lead weights concealed within the fish, orchestrated to falsify their weights and secure victory. The presence of nearly 34 pounds of fish, disemboweled to reveal 7 pounds of lead, left the crowd in utter disbelief.

Mike Miller, a tournament veteran, elaborates on the discovery:

"[02:39] Mike Miller: Everybody's recording the outrage and zooming in on the weights and the sad autopsied fish and zooming out to capture the bedlam."

Immediate Reactions and Public Outcry

The revelation triggered immediate chaos among participants and spectators. Chase fled the scene, evading the wrath of the angry crowd. Unlike his counterpart Jake, who faced the crowd stoically, Chase's attempt to escape only fueled the outrage.

Chase Kaminski reflects on the aftermath:

"[03:35] Mike Miller: There was so much wrath."
"[03:15] Chase Kaminski: Obviously, there was an angry mob. He let Jake ride the whole thing out."

Legal Proceedings and Charges

The episode provides a detailed account of the legal consequences faced by Chase and Jake. Two weeks post-scandal, a Cuyahoga County grand jury indicted them on four charges, including misdemeanors like unlawful ownership of wild animals and felonies such as cheating, attempted grand theft, and possessing criminal tools.

Prosecutor Andrew Rogolski explains the gravity of their actions:

"[14:38] Andrew Rogolski: It wasn't just that that was a boat that was won improperly or fraudulently... a secret compartment that would have enabled these defendants to conceal... fish that they caught the day before or the lead weights."

During their court appearance in Spring 2023, both pleaded guilty to cheating and illegal possession of wildlife, leading to sentences of 10 days in jail, $2,500 fines, 18 months probation, and a three-year suspension of their fishing licenses. Additionally, Chase faced prior convictions, including trespassing, theft, and tattooing a minor.

Impact on the Fishing Community

The scandal had a profound impact on the Lake Erie walleye tournaments. Mayor Neal of Rossford expressed his disheartenment, highlighting the personal and professional toll the cheating duo took on the community's integrity and aspirations.

Mayor Neal shares his perspective:

"[16:38] Chase Kaminski: ...they're stealing people's hopes and dreams and fantasies and lifelong memories that you have with somebody. Where's the value on that?"

As a result, the 2023 Walleye Roundup was canceled, and major sponsors like Bass Pro Shop withdrew their support. Mayor Neal emphasized the community's resilience and commitment to restoring credibility:

"[20:44] Mayor Neal: We want credibility, whatever that looks like, you know, so if we need to put more things in place, then we'll do that."

Restoration and Moving Forward

Despite the setback, tournament director Jason Fisher remains optimistic about the future of the Lake Erie walleye trail. His fourth tournament of 2023 in Ashtabula, Ohio, signifies a determined effort to rebuild trust and re-engage the community.

Chase Kaminski, despite his conviction, notes a positive shift in tournament dynamics:

"[19:20] Chase Kaminski: The atmosphere is the way it should be... there's a lot of people congratulating... it's just a much more positive atmosphere."

Conclusion

"Dead Fish Tell No Tales: Part 2 | 3" serves as a compelling exploration of how ambition and deceit can disrupt a tightly-knit community. Through meticulous storytelling, the episode highlights not only the intricacies of the cheating scheme but also the broader implications for personal integrity and communal trust. As the Lake Erie walleye tournaments strive to recover, the episode underscores the enduring human spirit to overcome adversity and uphold fairness.

Notable Quotes:

• Jason Fisher:

  "[01:13] I'm like, oh, my God. There's typically not hard objects in the belly of a fish."

• Mike Miller:

  "[02:39] ...the sad autopsied fish and zooming out to capture the bedlam."

• Andrew Rogolski:

  "[15:20] ...Chase Kaminsky and Jacob Runyon can only be prosecuted when we have evidence that we can bring in a court of law."

• Mayor Neal:

  "[20:44] We want credibility, whatever that looks like..."

Stay Tuned

Next week on Big Time, Steve Buscemi promises another enthralling tale of audacious schemes and criminal ingenuity. Make sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts and follow Big Time for more captivating stories about criminals who dared to dream differently.

Transcript

[Steve Buscemi]

Steve here. And a real quick catch up from our last episode. Here's what you need to remember.

[Mayor Neal]

We got weights and fit. There we go.

[Steve Buscemi]

Yeah, that's pretty much it. I'm Steve Buscemi, and you're listening to Big Time, an Apple original podcast from Piece of Work entertainment and Campside Media in association with Olive Productions. Today, Sean Flynn and Louise Jarvis Flynn are back to finish our tale.

[Narrator]

September 30, 2022. Cleveland, Ohio. A gorgeous fall day on the shore of Lake Erie. Dozens of people are gathered in a park for the end of the Lake Erie walleye trail championship. They're restless, agitated because the winning catch, Chase Kaminski and Jacob Runyon's five walleye. Well, those fish don't look right.

[Jason Fisher]

I knew that there was something wrong.

[Mike Miller]

That's Jason Fisher. He runs the tournament. He's inspecting those suspicious fish. He has his hands on one and he feels something hard inside.

[Jason Fisher]

I'm like, oh, my God. There's typically not hard objects in the belly of a fish. I mean, they're not eating, you know, zebra mussels or, you know, rocks or whatever, turtles.

[Narrator]

By now, everybody has their phone out recording.

[Mike Miller]

Jason cuts open the belly of the walleye.

[Chase Kaminski]

We got weights and fish.

[Narrator]

We got weights and fish.

[Mike Miller]

Jason is holding up a small, oblong lead weight. Nobody is shocked because a lot of people already suspect Chase and Jake are cheaters.

[Narrator]

And yet everybody is shocked because, holy hell, they stuffed a fish full of lead.

[Mike Miller]

So that's how they did it.

[Narrator]

Total chaos. It goes on for a while. All these motherfucking years. Go get that motherfucker. How you licking?

[Mike Miller]

Down on the scale, those fish weigh almost 34 pounds. Disemboweled, it's closer to 25 pounds. Inside the five total fish are 7 pounds of lead and almost a pound of walleye fillets, which keep the lead weights from clanking around.

[Narrator]

It's a clever touch. Clanking would totally give it away.

[Mike Miller]

Everybody's recording the outrage and zooming in on the weights and the sad autopsied fish and zooming out to capture the bedlam.

[Narrator]

Jake is all by himself.

[Chase Kaminski]

Chase ran. He literally ran to his truck. I was running after him. It reminded me of a little teenage boy running to soccer practice. Here's what he looked like. Yeah, he just went and hid in his truck.

[Mike Miller]

That's Mike Miller, a veteran of the Lake Erie walleye tournaments. He's been suspicious of Chase and Jake since the previous season.

[Chase Kaminski]

Obviously, there was an angry mob. He let Jake ride the whole thing out.

[Mike Miller]

Jason did his best to keep Jake from getting pummeled.

[Andrew Rogolski]

I don't want anybody to touch these guys.

[Chase Kaminski]

He didn't run away. He didn't put a hoodie over his face and take off. He legitimately just stood there and took the wrath of the crowd.

[Mike Miller]

There was so much wrath.

[Narrator]

Yeah, a lot of wrath. A lot of wrath.

[Mike Miller]

You know the irony? They only needed 17 pounds of fish to win. They didn't need to cheat.

[Narrator]

About 100 miles to the west, in tiny Rossford, Ohio, Mayor Neal was not closely following the late season walleye tournaments.

[Mayor Neal]

It just. This will sound bad. It wasn't a priority for me. I was already looking towards next year's tournament, how to make that bigger and better and to promote our city. Then my son's a big barstool sports guy, and he goes, dad, you're. You're national. Like, what are you talking about? You're on barstool sports. I go, I haven't played high school football since 1986. And there's no those guys in Cleveland, the cheating and all that stuff. And then I just. I watched the circus. I saw the YouTube videos and everything else.

[Stan Fulmer]

It's a story that made national headlines.

[Narrator]

There are scandals and professional fishing. It turns out, yes. At a fishing tournament in Cleveland on Friday, a duo that had been declared winners were caught cheating, allegedly having put lead weights inside the fish they just caught.

[Louise Jarvis Flynn]

A suspicious judge cuts open the fish.

[Narrator]

And pulls out weight after weight. Mayor Neal did not at first recognize the names or the faces.

[Mayor Neal]

You gotta remember, everybody shows up with a baseball hat, bib overalls, dark sunglasses, and they're holding up fish.

[Mike Miller]

But it didn't take long to make the connection. Those same two guys, Chase and Jake, had won the Rossford Walleye Roundup back in April, and they'd been accused of cheating, which meant that in the Rossford Walleye Roundup record books, there appeared to be a pretty big asterisk next to 2022.

[Mayor Neal]

I was bothered and hurt by what I thought would be the assault on the integrity of our walleye tournament. Did we really started from scratch? It hit me like a ton of bricks, because at the time, I thought it was so bizarre they wouldn't donate their fish. And then fast forward to that when they got caught. I'm like, I know why they didn't donate their fish.

[Narrator]

We got weights and fish.

[Mayor Neal]

There we go.

[Mike Miller]

Okay, pause. I have questions.

[Narrator]

So many questions.

[Mike Miller]

No, I mean, a fundamental question. The cliche is all fishermen are liars, right? I mean, the Internet knows this. And yet that went viral like it was a Shock to people.

[Narrator]

Well, because it is. It's one thing to lie when there's nothing at stake. Every fisherman's got a story about the big one that got away and ain't no way, no how anyone can prove them wrong. But here, the evidence just tumbled out in the most damning and humiliating and undeniable way possible. At this level of fishing, there's actually quite a bit at stake. The day they got caught, Chase and Jake were about to walk away with more than $28,000 in prize money.

[Chase Kaminski]

We're not talking about weekend tournament where you win 600 bucks. These tournaments that he was winning, I think in a year and a half, him and Jake were like over $300,000.

[Narrator]

Mike Miller, again, there's nowhere in the.

[Chase Kaminski]

Rules that say if you get caught cheating, you do 30 days in jail or it's a $20,000 fine. Just says the tournament director has his discretion to disqualify or deny entry to anybody that they want to. A criminal. I think it was a no brainer.

[Narrator]

For a small time crook, competitive fishing is a pretty good mark.

[Stan Fulmer]

Low risk, high reward, unless somebody cuts your fish open. And then there's proof, heavy lead proof that you cheated to win 28 grand, which is actually stealing. So a lot of tournaments hire people like Stan Fulmer, a polygraph examiner.

[Louise Jarvis Flynn]

People have to pay money to enter these tournaments. So if somebody cheats and wins a tournament by cheating, they have cheated all those individuals that entered. And once people cheat in tournaments, they don't want to come back and join that tournament again and the tournament itself will dwindle and fall away.

[Stan Fulmer]

Stan's been a polygraph examiner for 44 years.

[Louise Jarvis Flynn]

I do test pre employment for police and sheriff's departments. I also do criminal cases for police and sheriff's departments. But I'm also the examiner for the federal defender's office. So we do a lot of tests for the defense. We do tests on relationships, family relationships, family conflicts, business losses.

[Mike Miller]

He's been told pretty much every kind of lie by every kind of liar.

[Louise Jarvis Flynn]

I've done tests on people that have cut people's head heads off.

[Narrator]

And when he's not doing that, he's testing people who win fishing tournaments all kinds of ways.

[Louise Jarvis Flynn]

I mean, various ways to cheat. In a fishing tournament, we have caught people putting ice, stuffing ice. They stuffed a water hose in a giant big old fish one time and filled it up with about 100 pounds of water when you getting in and fishing, you know, up to 500, 600,000 pounds, they could do that.

[Narrator]

People have been known to hide fish to catch big ones ahead of time and keep them in a trap under a dock or near a secluded bank so they can grab them when no one's looking. You could have friends out fishing, too. Buddies who aren't officially in the tournament, but who'll bring you any big ones they reel in. The thing about fishing tournaments, they happen on open water. Lake Erie is the smallest of the great lakes, but it may as well be an ocean. It's not hard to slip out of view.

[Louise Jarvis Flynn]

We've had people in the larger tournaments that might pay 20, 30, 50,000, 100,000, $200,000 actually catching fish, maybe in another state, and even flying them in by float plane and landing in the ocean. So people are constantly coming up with new ideas, how to do things.

[Narrator]

I caught up with Stan at a redfish tournament, Redfish madness, in North Carolina, right after he'd polygraphed the winners, who were not for the record, suspected of cheating. It's just protocol.

[Louise Jarvis Flynn]

This is my easy day. Nobody here generally wants to kill me after the test or shoot me or come after me in some way.

[Narrator]

Hiring a polygraph examiner like Stan is not uncommon in the big money tournaments or even the medium money ones. Knowing there will be a polygraph at the end is both a deterrent and an assurance. People who don't win want to believe that those who did did so honestly.

[Louise Jarvis Flynn]

The whole point of polygraph, we don't look at it as trying to catch people. We do catch people, but the point is to keep a tournament clean. Once you confront a person, they could just decide they had a nice fun day of fishing and really didn't want to win anything. They were just there to have a happy time and go home.

[Narrator]

But not everyone, well, some of them.

[Louise Jarvis Flynn]

Think they can beat the test. It's one thing to cheat. Now you're coming in and taking the test. You're taking it to a step level. Now you're trying to beat the system. You're really trying to get away with it. So that makes it even tougher. So when we catch them in that type of thing and they've gone to all this effort to do that, that's when you don't want to have a mercy on their soul.

[Narrator]

Well, there's not a lot of room for mercy. You can't get arrested for failing a fishing tournament polygraph, but you will get disqualified and ostracized. But wait, why didn't Chase and Jake take any tests?

[Mike Miller]

They did, but not all tests are equal. A lot of tournaments use what's called a voice stress analysis to see if anyone cheated. But a voice stress test is pretty much worthless. A study by the National Institute of Justice found that they're no more reliable than a coin toss. Heads, you're lying, tails you're not. Not hard to beat. Polygraphs like the one Stan administers are much more reliable. And we know that Chase and Jake failed at least one of those. Remember at the end of the 2021 season when they won the big Fall Brawl? And soon after that, they were mysteriously disqualified. At first, nobody knew why, but then it came out that one of them, either Chase or Jake, failed the polygraph.

[Narrator]

But that hadn't been enough to stop them. Failing a polygraph is not a crime. In the context of the tournaments, that would merely suggest that you had cheated. You wouldn't prove anything. But actual lead weights tumbling out of your fish, that's different. That's proof that you cheated. And if you cheated to fraudulently obtain $28,000 in prize money, that's a crime. It's called attempted grand theft. And in Ohio and most other places, it's a felony. Not a rules violation, though I suppose it's that, too, but a real crime. And when there are viral videos of the shenanigans, the authorities, like, say, the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's office, they're going to.

[Stan Fulmer]

Notice fishing is all fun and games until someone's charged with felonies, which both Chase and Jake were.

[Narrator]

Two weeks after those walleye were gutted, a Cuyahoga county grand jury indicted Chase and Jake on four charges. Each one was a misdemeanor and kind of a weird one. Unlawful ownership of wild animals. It's perfectly legal to catch a walleye and kill it and eat it, but you're not allowed to stuff pieces of it into another walleye to keep your cheating weights from clanking together. That apparently is an impermissible use of your dead fish. In legalese. Unlawful ownership of wild animals.

[Stan Fulmer]

The other three charges were felonies. One was cheating. Really, there's a crime called cheating. And there was attempted grand theft. And finally, the coup de grace, possessing criminal tools. That's Chase's very expensive boat.

[Narrator]

In the spring of 2023, Chase and Jake sat behind the defendant's table in a wood paneled courtroom in Cleveland. They wore matching gray suits with black dress shirts. Prosecutors played a selection of those viral videos on a screen up front. Their stuffed fish being sliced, close ups of the weights. A whole bunch of angry people yelling at Jake. In the courtroom, Jake mostly stared Straight ahead with a hang dog look on his face. Chase seemed more alert, more tuned in.

[Stan Fulmer]

They were there to be sentenced. A few months earlier, in March 2023, Jake and Chase had both pleaded guilty to two charges, cheating and illegal possession of wildlife. The other two, attempted theft and possession of criminal tools, were dismissed. But they still had to forfeit the boat. Here's prosecutor Andrew Rogolski explaining why to the judge.

[Andrew Rogolski]

It wasn't just that that was a boat that was won improperly or fraudulently. The boat itself was an instrumentality. When law enforcement officers executed a warrant and seized that boat, they found a compartment that literally smelled fishy and was sort of customized to have a secret compartment that would have enabled these defendants to conceal, whether it be fish that they caught the day before or the lead weights that would allow them to potentially pass a boat inspection.

[Mayor Neal]

You have photographs of that?

[Andrew Rogolski]

I do have photographs of that.

[Mike Miller]

A secret compartment, a hidey hole.

[Narrator]

That doesn't sound like something you'd use only once. Here's the prosecutor again.

[Andrew Rogolski]

As you can see pretty clearly from those videos, Judge, nobody believes that that day at Gordon Parkinski or Jacob Runyon cheated. It confirmed suspicions, and it led to an outlet of rage. But we're here in a court of law, and Chase Kaminsky and Jacob Runyon can only be prosecuted when we have evidence that we can bring in a court of law.

[Narrator]

Jason Fisher, the walleye tournament director, he had a few things you wanted to tell the judge before he passed sentence.

[Andrew Rogolski]

First of all, I wanted to thank you and the prosecution in the division of Wildlife for handling this matter seriously. It means a lot to us, and not that you wouldn't, but at the end of the day, it is complaint generated by fishing. So we appreciate you guys taking the time to investigate properly.

[Narrator]

That was nice to acknowledge that for all the attention that Chase and Jake's shenanigans generated, it was usually sort of a giggle in the background. But to folks involved, this was seriously unsettling. The emotion you hear in those videos, that's not people reacting to anonymous grifters, some faceless burglars. This was personal. And it wasn't just about the money.

[Chase Kaminski]

Something to be said is in that Rossford tournament, the guy who took second place, he was a very seasoned and long time, very well respected angler.

[Narrator]

Mike Miller, Lake Erie walleye tournament veteran.

[Chase Kaminski]

He's at the tail end of his career. That was the last tournament he ever fished. So he could have went out on as a champion, but he's second place. And then there was another tournament that Chase and Jake won, where a father son team came in second place. So it's like not only the monetary value of what they're stealing from people, they're also stealing people's hopes and dreams and fantasies and lifelong memories that you have with somebody. Where's the value on that?

[Mike Miller]

10 days in jail and $2,500 in fines. Apparently that's the sentence the judge handed both. He also gave them 18 months probation and took away their fishing licenses for three years before they were led away. Both men apologized, said they were super embarrassed and very sorry. For whatever that's worth.

[Narrator]

Meh. It's not worth much. This might have been Jake's first major run into law, but this wasn't the first time Chase had been charged with the crime. For him, it was small time stuff. Trespassing, theft, all misdemeanors. Plus, in 2013, he pleaded guilty to tattooing a minor. And in February, just months after he'd done that super embarrassing thing with the fish, he was arrested with his son for passing fake $100 bills at a bowling alley. Not counterfeits, fakes. Prop money for movies. Says so right on the front. For motion picture purposes, not legal tender. Chase's son pled guilty and was sentenced to a year of probation. And Chase pled no contest and was sentenced to six months to a year behind bars.

[Jason Fisher]

Alicio, I had to write it down earlier. Perfect. You guys have fished 37 loot events. I got your name right for the first time.

[Narrator]

Good job. Job.

[Jason Fisher]

Good job, guys. 2512. 2512. Nice work. 2779.

[Narrator]

The Lake Erie walleye trail Jason's tournament series. Rebounders from the scandal just fine.

[Jason Fisher]

Those of you youngsters in the crowd, we got free fishing poles and free shirts courtesy of the NPAA over there. So take yourself home a fishing pole. We want to see you guys out there next time. Coming up to the scales, we got Lenny.

[Narrator]

This is Jason's fourth tournament of 2023. It's in Ashtabula, Ohio, coincidentally, Jake's hometown. He's not here.

[Chase Kaminski]

Since this has happened, it's been a fantastic year of fishing in these tournaments.

[Mike Miller]

Here's Mike Miller again.

[Chase Kaminski]

The atmosphere is the way it should be. It's back to the way it used to be. There's high fives, there's attaboys, There's a lot of people congratulating. There's guys who are winning tournaments that have never won before. And it's just a much more positive atmosphere. Nobody's going home on Sunday and calling each other wondering and complaining about Chase and Jake cheating anymore. It's the way it should be.

[Stan Fulmer]

That wasn't the sentiment everywhere. Not in Rossford for sure.

[Mayor Neal]

You know, that kind of just knocked us all down.

[Narrator]

That's Mayor Neal in Rossford. When this story went viral global, there was a picture that often went with it. It's of Chase and Jake at the 2022 Rossford Walleye Roundup. Jake is holding up a big wrestling style championship belt. Chase is on one side with one of those giant novelty checks. On Jake's other side, smiling, almost beaming, is Mayor Neil.

[Mike Miller]

Mayor Neil, a public servant who only wanted to make the best damn walleye tournament in the universe. He certainly didn't deserve any of this.

[Narrator]

To be very clear, Rossford got rolled by Chase and Jake just like everyone else. But when it's your picture in the New York Times. Well, the 2023 Walleye Roundup was canceled.

[Mayor Neal]

We decided to pause. We just thought that we needed to get better. We need to figure this out.

[Mike Miller]

Chase and Jake gave walleye fishing such a black eye. The roundup's main sponsor, Bass Pro Shop, pulled out. Mayor Neal says it was a mutual decision, but this, he hopes, is only a bump, a temporary stumble.

[Mayor Neal]

We want credibility, whatever that looks like, you know, so if we need to put more things in place, then we'll do that.

[Narrator]

Of course they will. When you're a small town with big dreams, you don't just give up. You stay focused on the dream.

[Mayor Neal]

I just thought it was genius and brilliant that being the only municipality in all of northwest Ohio that has a bass pro, being on the Maumee river, which is the largest walleye run in the entire country, being eight miles from Lake Erie, which is the walleye capital of the world, that we had finally found a niche. We had found something that separated us from everybody else. Our dream was, and it still is, and we're going to go after it, is to make this the largest and best and most popular and famous walleye fishing tournament. I'm playing a dura.

[Steve Buscemi]

Next week on Big Time. A very sick scheme. This has been Big Time. An Apple original podcast produced by Piece of work Entertainment and Campside Media in association with Olive Productions. It's hosted by me, Steve Buscemi. This episode was reported and produced by Sean Flynn and Louise Jarvis Flynn. Our story editor is Audrey Quinn. Lane Rose is our showrunner and managing producer. Our production team includes Amy Padula, Rajeev Gola, Morgan Jaffe and associate producer Danya Abdelamed. Fact checking by Gray Lanza Sound design and mixing by Shawnee Aviram. Our theme was written by Nicholas Principe and Peter Silberman of Spatial Relations. Production help from Matt Rand. Campside Media's executive producers are Josh Dean, Vanessa Gregoriadas, Adam Hoff and Matt Scher. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.