Communication Expert: THIS is How to Attract Success into Your Life | Vanessa Van Edwards

Summary

BigDeal Podcast Episode Summary

Title: Communication Expert: THIS is How to Attract Success into Your Life | Vanessa Van Edwards
Host: Codie Sanchez
Guest: Vanessa Van Edwards
Release Date: September 17, 2024

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Introduction

In this captivating episode of BigDeal, host Codie Sanchez welcomes renowned communication expert Vanessa Van Edwards. Vanessa, an entrepreneur, investor, and author, delves deep into the art of effective communication and how it can be a pivotal factor in attracting success. Drawing from her extensive research and practical experiences, Vanessa shares invaluable insights on pitching ideas, enhancing interpersonal relationships, and fostering a positive team culture.

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The Importance of Clear Pitches and First Impressions

Vanessa emphasizes the critical role of clarity in communication, especially when pitching ideas. She illustrates this with the example of Jamie Simonoff's Ring pitch on Shark Tank, where despite having a billion-dollar idea, a poor pitch led to initial rejection. Vanessa states:

"It doesn't matter how good your idea is, if you don't know how to pitch it, it will not sell."
— Vanessa Van Edwards [04:48]

She highlights that first impressions are formed even before the first line is spoken, stressing the need for a confident and clear introduction.

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Harnessing Vocal Power for Confidence

Vanessa introduces the concept of vocal power as a hidden tool to demonstrate confidence. Referencing a study, she explains how vocal tones can significantly influence perceptions of intelligence and trustworthiness:

"Competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious."
— Vanessa Van Edwards [27:11]

She advocates for the use of downward inflection to convey authority and confidence, comparing it to the impactful speaking style of former President Barack Obama.

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Building Positive Team Culture through Communication

The conversation shifts to internal communication within businesses. Vanessa advises leaders to frame meetings with purposeful language to set the right tone. For instance, renaming generic meetings to "strategic goal setting" or "collaboration sessions" can prime team members for constructive engagement:

"Your meetings start the moment you come on. If you're a boss and you start with your intention for the meeting... activities become more purposeful."
— Vanessa Van Edwards [11:35]

She also underscores the importance of starting team meetings with positive prompts, such as sharing something good, to foster a positive and productive environment.

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Nonverbal Cues: Balancing Warmth and Competence

Vanessa breaks down communication into two essential traits: warmth and competence, explaining that 82% of impressions are based on these factors. She provides a "recipe" for effective nonverbal communication:

• Warmth Cues: Authentic smiling, slow nodding, head tilts.
• Competence Cues: Steeple gestures, visible hands, confident postures.

She uses the example of Casper Mattresses to illustrate how blending warmth and competence in marketing can build trust and reliability.

"The most viral TED speakers used an average of over 400 hand gestures in 18 minutes, whereas the least viewed TED talks used about 270 gestures."
— Vanessa Van Edwards [58:39]

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Lie Detection and Recognizing Contempt

Vanessa discusses the intricacies of lie detection, emphasizing that no single cue can definitively indicate deception. However, certain patterns, such as incongruent nods or micro-expressions of disgust, can signal dishonesty:

"There is no Pinocchio's nose. There's no one cue that says someone's lying. But there are statistical cues to deceit."
— Vanessa Van Edwards [43:45]

She also warns about the destructive nature of contempt in relationships and workplaces, referencing Dr. John Gottman's research on divorce predictors.

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Gender Differences in Communication

Addressing gender dynamics, Vanessa explains that societal expectations shape how men and women communicate. Women are often perceived as warmer but less competent, while men are seen as more competent but less warm. She offers strategies for both genders to balance these traits:

"Women have higher voice tones. Men think that to be powerful is to be stoic and unreadable."
— Vanessa Van Edwards [51:41]

She advises women to overcome vocal fry by speaking louder and men to incorporate visible hand gestures to convey warmth.

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Overcoming Introversion in Business

Vanessa provides actionable advice for introverted entrepreneurs striving for success. She emphasizes finding one's unique "recipe for charisma" and leveraging personal strengths without forcing extroverted behaviors:

"You can absolutely be the quiet, powerful introvert. You can be the empathetic healer. You can be the wise question asker."
— Vanessa Van Edwards [72:59]

She encourages embracing vulnerability and authentic storytelling as powerful tools for connection and leadership.

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Building Deep Relationships through Intentional Questions

Exploring relationship dynamics, Vanessa introduces a framework for deepening connections through three levels of communication:

1. Level One: General Traits (e.g., "What excites you?")
2. Level Two: Personal Concerns (e.g., "What worries you?")
3. Level Three: Self-Narrative (e.g., "What story do you tell yourself about yourself?")

She shares how these questions can transform interactions, fostering genuine understanding and stronger bonds.

"If you want to be more likable, you need to be hunting for good in others, in every conversation, in every email and every discussion."
— Vanessa Van Edwards [92:05]

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Final Thoughts and Takeaways

Concluding the episode, Vanessa and Codie reflect on the importance of intentional communication in both personal and professional spheres. Vanessa highlights the significance of aggressive liking to enhance likability and the power of authentic interactions.

"All I need to do is stop worrying about being likable or being impressive... find ways to aggregate aggressively like the people that I'm with."
— Vanessa Van Edwards [92:58]

Codie echoes these sentiments, emphasizing the value of stories over statistics and the necessity of focusing on what truly converts in business communications.

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Notable Quotes

• Vanessa Van Edwards [04:48]: "It doesn't matter how good your idea is, if you don't know how to pitch it, it will not sell."
• Vanessa Van Edwards [27:11]: "Competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious."
• Vanessa Van Edwards [58:39]: "The most viral TED speakers used an average of over 400 hand gestures in 18 minutes, whereas the least viewed TED talks used about 270 gestures."
• Vanessa Van Edwards [43:45]: "There is no Pinocchio's nose. There's no one cue that says someone's lying. But there are statistical cues to deceit."
• Vanessa Van Edwards [51:41]: "Women have higher voice tones. Men think that to be powerful is to be stoic and unreadable."
• Vanessa Van Edwards [72:59]: "You can absolutely be the quiet, powerful introvert. You can be the empathetic healer. You can be the wise question asker."
• Vanessa Van Edwards [92:05]: "If you want to be more likable, you need to be hunting for good in others, in every conversation, in every email and every discussion."

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Conclusion

This episode of BigDeal offers a treasure trove of strategies for mastering communication to drive success. From refining pitching techniques and leveraging vocal power to building authentic relationships and fostering a positive team culture, Vanessa Van Edwards provides actionable insights backed by scientific research. Whether you're an introverted entrepreneur or a seasoned leader, the lessons shared in this conversation are invaluable for transforming how you connect, influence, and succeed in both business and personal realms.

For more detailed insights and practical tools, subscribe to Codie Sanchez’s BigDeal podcast and follow Vanessa Van Edwards’ work at Science of People.

Transcript

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Sometimes a mistake I see entrepreneurs make is you say, so what's your business? What do you do? And they give you the most complicated answer I've ever heard in a million years.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And you see people like, okay, cool, they're not contemptuous of you. They don't understand. And they're contemptuous of that. Right. So if you're introducing yourself, you're explaining something, you're like, gosh, Vanessa, I'm seeing this contempt everywhere. You are overcomplicating it. You need to go for clarity over confusion. People should be able to very quickly understand what you do and who you are and what you want from them.

[Cody Sanchez]

So, obviously, I love creating content. We post like 50 pieces of it across all my platforms. And if you've ever created content, you know the uphill battle it can be to ideate, write, produce film, video, and then you have to edit it all. So one of my favorite tools to use for this is Riverside. You've probably heard about it before, but I don't think people realize that it's revolutionized the podcast space by allowing creators all over the world to do the recording in 4K, regardless of Internet speed. But they've just released an update that I think any creator is going to love. So along with the high quality video and audio that they've kind of become known for, you can have editing software so you can edit any video content directly in Riverside if your team's a little bit more bougie like mine and wants to record the video themselves. And then you can upload it to Riverside so you can use their amazing AI tools afterwards, it can transform, transcribe your video, add customizable caption, analyze that transcript to cut out any dead space in the video. And my favorite part, they have this AI editor feature that will pull short form from clips from my content so we can squeeze all the juice of it out from the many hours it takes to create it. If you think time is money like I do, then Riverside has given me and my team back lots of time, AKA money. So I love these guys. And because I love you, I got you guys a deal. So try Riverside for yourself with the link in this episode's description. You can sign up for free using the link and discount code Cody at checkout for a discount on any paid plan. Welcome back to the Big Deal podcast. I'm Cody Sanchez and this podcast is for those of you who don't just want to be rich, but free and are willing to do what it takes to get there. Okay, this week we have on somebody that I go to every time I am struggling with. How do I communicate with somebody with. Why isn't my team doing what I want it to do with? Why can't I get my husband to do what I want him to do? And her name is Vanessa Van Edwards. You guys might know her because she has one of the most popular TED talks of all time on communication and the cues we give with our body that tell people things without us even moving our mouth. She runs something called Science of People, which is a large psychology based business on how can we use behavioral cues in order for us to get what we want out of life, to live better lives, to be more successful. She also is a bestselling author times two frequently on Good Morning America, cnbc, msnbc. You guys are kind of in for a treat because she has only done two podcasts this year, Mel Robbins and now mine. What I love about Vanessa is she talks about things that are applicable to our everyday lives that we can take away and take real action on, but all backed by science. And so she is like a walking encyclopedia of studies and experiments that you can then take and apply to your business. So in this episode today we go over how do you pitch somebody something so that they will buy it? We talk about how in your business do you communicate in meetings that is probably making people not like you and you to be less successful. We talk about how to communicate with members of the opposite sex to actually figure out if they're into you or going to be into you and vice versa. We also talk about how do you run a business or be successful in business if you're an introvert or if you don't really like people? And one of my favorite ones, how do you tell people no, but get them to thank you. So I think you guys are really going to like this episode. Let's dive right in to a story that kind of blew my mind when Vanessa started. We gotta start with one of my favorite stories. Shark Tank. Ring. I'll say no more.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. Ring. Billion dollar company now was a great idea. Video doorbell. Okay. Jamie Simonoff has this idea. He has lots of growth, lots of traction. He goes on Shark Tank, you think, no brainer. He enters the tank, he does a pitch, not a good one, but does a pitch, shows revenue numbers, has really promising numbers and he doesn't get a deal. Months later, he gets an investment from Shaq Richard Branson. But he failed in Shark Tank and it is the perfect example. And it was sobering for me. This was back in 2012, 2013, where he had a great idea, literally a million dollar idea, but he didn't know how to pitch it and it failed. And that is the problem, is I think a lot of business owners have amazing ideas. It doesn't matter how good your idea is, if you don't know how to pitch it, it will not sell.

[Cody Sanchez]

Let's watch a second of this clip.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Who's there?

[Cody Sanchez]

It's Jamie here to pitch.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Who?

[Cody Sanchez]

It's Jamie.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Come in.

[Cody Sanchez]

Sharks. Wouldn't it have been nice to know who was behind the door before you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Let me in with my product? You can.

[Cody Sanchez]

What do you take away from this? What are the learning lessons? So that we can only be the ring founder after he became a billionaire, not during Shark Cake.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so here's a big mistake that people make when they're pitching, pitching on stage, pitching on a video call, pitching to an investor, is they prep their pitch and not their first impression. But people decide how smart you are, how trustworthy you are, and if they're going to like your idea when they first see you, that is even before your opening line. And so what I learned in that was that his first impression was one of the worst first impressions I've ever seen. So what he did is he was trying to be clever, is he came in and he knocked on the door of the shark tank and they said, who's there? And he said, it's Jamie here to pitch an idea. And he asked his own name. In that moment, I think he lost the deal. The reason for this is because an accidental question, inflection, when you accidentally ask your name or your number or your statement, people question you. And so I think in his opening line, and this is a mistake people make all the time, is they ask their name or they ask their number and you're begging people to negotiate with you and do tons of sales trainings. Right? And here's what I hear all the time. We'd love to have your business, we'd love to work with you. And the price of that will be $5,000. You ask your number, you're telling people, I don't really believe this number, and neither should you. Those people have the lowest close rates, the biggest pushback, and also people lack confidence in you. So I think that the first impressions was the really big one. There is. It's before you even open your mouth or your very first line is actually going to set you up for an entire pitch.

[Cody Sanchez]

Fascinating. So what should it sound like?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so instead you want to use what's called the downward inflection. And you want to do this. It's much more authoritative. Is when we're speaking as humans. Well, can I share a really good study? Just like a juicy study? Okay. So most people, when they think about how to pitch, they think about the words they use, maybe what they're wearing or their body language. But actually, our vocal power is a secret way that we can show confidence. And here's a study. They brought doctors into their recording studio and they had them record 10 second voice tone clips like this. Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize in oncology, and I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital. They took these clips and they warbled the words so you could hear the pitch, the volume, the pace, the cadence, but not the actual words being said. Then they asked participants to listen to these clips, and the gobbledygook sounded like, I worked really hard on practicing.

[Cody Sanchez]

Nailed it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Nailed it. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. So they listened to this clip and they said, how smart is this person? Do you like this person? The doctors who had the lowest ratings in warmth and competence had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits. Which means that when you first say, hey, my name is Vanessa, how you say that is right. Then people are deciding how smart and how trustworthy you are. And so when we're talking about vocal power, the biggest mistake that doctors made is they asked their names. They said, hi, My name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize in oncology. I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital. What would have been better is going on the downward inflection. So that sounds like this. Hi, My name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize in oncology. I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, yeah, I believe.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my gosh. Right? Even I would hire me, and I'm not a doctor. You know, someone who was really good at this. Barack Obama. Barack Obama. There is a cadence he has to his voice, and I do terrible impressions. I will try it for you, but I do terrible impressions. He used to go down, or he still goes down at the end of his sentences, which makes you sit up and listen. So he. This is my really bad Barack Obama impression. Okay. Right. Here it goes. I'm gonna talk about nothing. In our country today, we really have to work on something serious. If we don't work on this problem, we are going to have a major challenge. Right. Like, he's slinging his words down at you. And as humans, we think, whoa, if he's going that low and he's telling us what to do, it better be real interesting. And so it almost doesn't even matter what the content is, but we hear that vocal tone. So when you're practicing your pitches, practice stating your name, practice stating your numbers. And whatever question makes you nervous. Like when an investor is like, so what's the competition in the market? Do not ask, tell.

[Cody Sanchez]

Fascinating. Do you use this also in interpersonal relations? Not just pitches. Like, what is constantly. What other scenarios would you use this in? Is this how you communicate with your team and also how you communicate with your husband?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. So luckily, I think about all these cues as a science, and they are happening all the time. I think there are about 96 cues that people choose from. Like, they actually can pick these out and use them in interpersonal relationships. And it happens down to asking your husband where he wants to go to dinner. It comes down to telling your kids what you want them to do. I notice that parents who have kids who don't listen as much are asking what they want them to do instead of saying what they want them to do. So this is an assertiveness issue. Right. When we talk about assertiveness in the workplace, at home, in interpersonal relationships, if you state your needs, people are much more likely to listen to them. And so it is happening all the time. But it's not just vocal power, right. It's also how we carry ourselves. The kinds of words we use. In fact, the kinds of words we use change how people treat us. For example, there was a study, I love this study. They wanted to know if a single word could change the way people acted. They brought them into the lab, split them into two groups. One group was told, today you're going to play the Wall street game. The second group was told, today you're going to play the community game. The trick was, the games were the same. They wanted to know if that one single word switch would change how they interacted. Everyone who was told they were playing the Wall street game shared an average of a third of their profits. People who were told they were playing the community game shared two thirds of their profits. That means that when we hear words like community, we are primed to actually act more collaboratively, to actually act more communally. When we are primed to act in a competitive way, like Wall street, we actually are less generous, but more competitive. So the words you're using with your kids, with your spouses, with your friends on your team, they are changing things. The biggest mistake I see is bosses send out meeting, video call, one on one. What a missed opportunity. If you are doing that, you are Blending in. I open my calendar multiple times a day. Call it what you want them to do in that meeting. You want a strategic meeting, call it strategic goal setting meeting, collaboration, team session, accountability.

[Cody Sanchez]

Call.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That way, every single time someone opens their calendar, they're literally being primed on how they should act and behave in that moment.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's such good advice. I'm totally gonna steal that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Cody Sanchez]

You know, it's interesting because I was at an event the other day. Well, I was actually at church. And what I thought was fascinating is I went to two different churches over the course of two weeks. Cause we're looking for a church here in Austin that I wanna be a part of. You saw in the group text, and one of the ones I went to blew me away because of their priming. So they opened it up and they talked about how at this church, they were a community. So they used that word, one. Then they said, and at this community, the job is not for the church and the book to serve you. It is for you to serve the book and the church then. In fact, if you want to become a better person and if you want to achieve more of your goals and what you want out of life, that means you have to give first. And so it was funny because as I was listening to it, I was like, God, these chairs are sort of uncomfortable. You know, I was like. I was like, gosh, yeah, I like the lighting. This could be, like, a better setup. I'm critiquing what's happening in church, which is totally not normal. But as I'm doing that. And he says, if there is something that you want differently, if there is something that you think should change, who should be the person to change it? If not you, then who. Who should be the person to change it? And everyone is like, me. And I was like, oh, that's so good. Because what does that do? The second you and your event in your company then feel like there's something that needs to change, your employees will feel like they're the ones that can actually help you make the change.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And that was a purposeful introduction. They thought and they said, what purpose are we going to give everyone? Because we are infectious, right? We are emotionally contagious as humans. And so you have to think, if I'm emotionally contagious, what contagion do I want to spread? Do I want to spread influence, Power, persuasion, kindness, wealth, happiness? What are those things you have to be purposeful? They were planning on what those words were going to be when they first got there. Same thing as Your team meetings, what is the one word goal? Is it collaboration or is it get it done right? When you are starting a team call, here's my least favorite thing. People get on a team call and they go, well, we'll get started in a few. We'll let everyone log in. No, that is a wasted opportunity, and it means you're not being purposeful. No. Your meetings start the moment you come on. If you're a boss and they start with your intention for the meeting. All right, everyone, today we're going to do a big review, and I want to get really clear on some goals. But first, I want to start with tell me something good. Every team call, I do everyone on the team, because we're all remote. Two of us are in Austin. We say share something good because I noticed that we were starting accidentally on the negative. I think this is also, if you're a leader, we can do good by being good communicators. And so if you are starting your team calls with, oh, the traffic, the numbers, the problems, so stressed, so busy, so hectic, what a scarcity mindset that is. And you are contagious. You say you're stressed. You just infected your whole team with stress. Because moods usually go from the top down. So I would rather you be positively contagious. That sets up such a good culture. It sets up such good loyalty. So I noticed my team calls were, like, negative, like, accidentally so. So I was like, no, no, we are changing this so everyone shares something good. You know what my team member told me? She said, every Tuesday, we have our team call, and on Monday, I do more good things so that you have so she has something to share on Tuesdays. And so I think that part of this is about being more charismatic and having more influence and pitching your ideas. Part of it is also, let's spread more good. Like, let's be positively contagious. And that means being purposeful. That means no more accidental openers. Sorry I'm late. It's been so busy. Never ask someone explain what an accidental.

[Cody Sanchez]

Opener is, because that is a beautiful line. I think doing an accidental opener is the worst way for a leader to lead.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. Okay. Accidental openers happen when you have whatever is the top of your mind and it comes out of your mouth, and you just change the nature of the entire communication or interaction. Right. So it's. This is the question that, can we please go on a diet? No more been busy. Is it your busy season? Oh, man, was that bad thing that happened last month still happening? Right? You are Literally juicing bad. Right? So I like purposeful openers. Right. So that's create a norm in your team where you're adding a purpose open that people can prepare for that also respects your introverts. So I love my extroverted leaders. But extroverted leaders sometimes can actually turn off employees and lose them if they push them out of their introvert boundaries. So if you're like, we're going to do a new icebreaker every single week for an introvert, they're like, no, please, no. Right, so you have a norm on the team that we talk about something good or we share something we've learned or we do a goal review. Okay, next is in your interpersonal relationships is level up by asking better questions. You want to literally juice dopamine. Look, dopamine does a lot of things in our body. I will not overcomplicate it, but it is the chemical of motivation. When someone has dopamine coursing through their bodies, they are motivated to talk, open up, say yes, invest, do new things, say new things. It's the chemical of excitement. We can juice it with our questions and an accidental opener. Mrs. Dopamine opportunities. So here's my favorite dopamine opener. Working on anything exciting these days? Yeah, please stop asking what they do. I think when you ask someone what do you do? First of all, it's a social script. You just told their brain, go on autopilot. I'm going to ask the same boring questions as I always ask. And second, if someone is not defined by what they do, they are answering on autopilot. And then they are. They have no dopamine at all. Right. Their brain is off. They're thinking about their to do list. If you ask someone working on anything exciting these days, you are giving them such a beautiful contagion, which is they get to think through their head, exciting, exciting, exciting, exciting. That is literally juicing dopamine from excitement in their own life. And it gives them permission to tell you what they want to tell you.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's really good. Yeah. In a perfect world, too, then you never have somebody say, oh, I'm just a mom right now. I'm just. Which is also one of my pet peeves. I'm like, gosh, but that is my fault that I opened up the question in a way that made them go automatically to a just answer.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I think it's our fault. I think we're in charge of how people treat us. You cue people to how you want to be treated, and that's with the kinds Questions you ask, the kinds of words you use, how you're holding your body language, and how you're using your voice. So if you want to be treated with more respect, more likeability, you got to spread it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Let's talk about that. If you want to be treated with more respect, what do you do from a body language perspective?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so respect is a good one. So research has shown that 82% of our impressions of people are based on two traits, warmth and competence. It's not how attractive you are, it's not how tall you are, it's not how rich you are. It's not how accessible you are. It's literally, how fast can you signal, I'm a friend, Trust, and you can rely on me. Competence. And so from a body language perspective, the faster you can signal those two things. The moment you hop on screen, the moment you get on a video, the moment you enter a room, the more people like you and respect you.

[Cody Sanchez]

Interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So it is a balance. So what I like to think about is like a recipe, is there are warmth nonverbal cues, and there are competent nonverbal cues. So warm cues, these make sense, right? Smiling. Authentic smiling. A warm cue. You're nodding. Nodding is a warmth cue. Right. When you do a triple nod, research shows that I will speak 67% longer. So when you're just going, oh, I gotta start adding, but not bobbleheading, which is this. No.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, right. Too much.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Well, so that. That's also not good.

[Cody Sanchez]

Right?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Too much. So if you do a slow triple knot here, I'll demo it for you. The other person speaks 67% longer. So this is a. Mm, mm, mm.

[Cody Sanchez]

Stop. Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right. That is a nonverbal. You're telling the other person, I hear you. I see you. Tell me more. Now, this pace of this is also important. So you only want to do three and pause, and you want to do them slowly. So slow is engaged and curious. Tell me more, tell me more, tell me more. Fast is impatience.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So a little secret here is if you want someone to, like, wrap it up or speed it up, not that you ever would, you can go, uh huh. Mm, mm. It's literally a signal for them to stop talking. So warmth cues, Smiling, nodding, a head tilt. So watch the difference between a still face and a head tilt. So if I were to say, I have some news, I have some news. A head tilt immediately softens you. It immediately adds more warmth. That's a small warmth cue. Competence cues, there's like 15 of them, but those are the easy Ones, the competence cues. Some of my favorites are like a steeple. Right. So even this is just more wise and competent. If it feels natural to you, like some people look like, don't be Mr. Burns. It's like you kind of be careful. This is on my book cover and you love it. I know, I do love your book cover, but I'm not. So you have to be careful with this one. But that's a high competency.

[Cody Sanchez]

No, because your book cover, you've got the crossed legs. So it's like your dainty, but you're also smart.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Dainty.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. Cross your ankles.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Warm.

[Cody Sanchez]

I feel like I always think dainty.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Warm, dainty. I'll take it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, it's a great book. By the way. The book's name is Q's to give you a little applause. But all of this is in there.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So the COVID is literally a perfect balance of warmth and competence, as are most of my social media posts. So if you look at my Instagram grid, it's warm, competent, warm, competent. Maybe it'll be warm, warm, competent, competent. We'll have a study post and then a post of me being silly and then a funny meme and then a really hard hitting study. So even in your business, like, can I give a business example, please? Okay, so Casper Mattresses is an interesting one. Like they kind of took the mattress market by storm and they could have had better mattresses, sure. But their marketing was a perfect blend of warmth and competence. They on their webpage they would have like kids bouncing on clouds and they would have our research scientists in the Casper lab and it was a whole science section and they would have like a quote from Vogue about like the best night's sleep ever. And then they would have someone in a lab coat like testing a mattress. Literally you could count the warmth and competence and that for a human when they are looking for trust, reliability, trust reliability is immediately helpful. We can do the same thing with our words. So for example, I love to guess someone's warmth and competence based on their email sent folder. So a challenge for you is.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh no.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh no. All right, we're going to look at Cody's email sen Boulder so you can go into their email sent folder and I count up the warm words and the competent words. Warm words are words that trigger oxytocin. It makes us feel collaborative. So they're words like best. Both happy together. Cheers, collaborate, team. Words that are competent make us want to get it done. They're words like motivation, efficient, power through goal, mastery, achieve. So I can Tell you how your team rates you on warmth and competence based on your email sent folder. Emojis are warm. Exclamation points are warm. Data charts, graphs, numbers are competent. And so when you're writing important emails, not all the emails, there should be a blend of both warmth and confidence. Your LinkedIn profile should be a blend of warmth and confidence. Your landing pages should be a blend of warmth and competence.

[Cody Sanchez]

I think I overindex on the competence. Yeah, yeah. Although I think it's really interesting because you talked from a social perspective. We've noticed that lately too, that I am so high on the indexing for competence, or what Chris Voss would call assertive too, that when people meet me to interview me, I have two. Well, actually, I think Chloe said it to me. She met me and she was like, gosh, you're actually really nice and warm and kind. And I was like, yes, thank you. Yeah, it's a common thing. Because my content is very serious.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes, the same thing I was told, you're so much nicer than you look.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, I get that too.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Why do you think I wear pink? It's actually very smart. You have to balance. And so this is what's really important is Oprah Winfrey is a good example of this. So Oprah Winfrey has a very, very high balance of warmth and competence. And we like people who have both. Right. But she has a dial. Right. It's like a thermostat. Right. Like, we like it between 68 and 72. I don't want you to dial all the way. But like when Oprah Winfrey is with like a victim, she is crying with them, she is touching them, she's leaning in. Those are all warmth cues. When she's with like a political commenter commentator, she changes. Her cues are much more competent. She's quieter. She's less facially expressive. She makes more eye contact. She's still with her body. She has less gestures. Those are all competent gestures. So you can also dial. And this is what I think the most advanced leaders do. And Jamie Simonoff learned to do this. Going back to ring, he learned to do this. I think that was a bad pitch in Shark Tank, which, by the way, it's not obviously bad. Like, if you were to go watch the pitch, you would be like, I don't know what happened, but something happened. I think he learned how to pitch with both warmth and competence. As anyone can look at your slide deck right in your slide deck, it should not be all numbers and competence. In fact, the research says, and this Is a quote. Competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious. People will be suspicious of your ideas and your numbers if you do not know how to add warmth cues. And that is what you are struggling with is you know instinctively, if I come across as too hard or too competent, people are suspicious of me. And they are. And that is because we have to have a balance of both.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. It goes to trustworthiness. Yeah. A lot of our presentations, we use memes. Because memes are an easy way to transfer somebody else's warmth to you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Exactly.

[Cody Sanchez]

I'm not the greatest joke teller of all time.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You're good, you're funny.

[Cody Sanchez]

No, thanks. But then when I can add somebody else's meme in there, then it softens up sort of the hard blows of business that are realities.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, let's get practical. Right. So like in your presentation, I like to switch a warmth something into your presentation like every two minutes. So this is very practical. So competence in a presentation, Data charts, graphs, research, science, study, warmth, memes, gifs, demos, fuzzy, wuzzy, social proof, personal stories, quotes, quotes. Good. I love quotes. Yes.

[Cody Sanchez]

Because they make you feel something immediately and you don't have to come up with it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And it's warm. Right. So if you can take that list and you can just make it so that they're even, your presentations will be so much stronger. Same thing on your social media, same thing in your promos, Same thing in your ads.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. I always wondered, you know, one of the fun things I like to do is go into Facebook ad library and you can wot in my spare time. So you can go into Facebook library and you can see all the ads that somebody's running of any business.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay.

[Cody Sanchez]

What?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay.

[Cody Sanchez]

And so if you want to try to understand the psychology of selling of any business, it's really easy to see in Facebook and if the ads have been running for a long period of time, you know that the ad has been working. So if you look at the brand new ads, I don't know, maybe they work, maybe they don't. But if they've been running for a few months, okay, this ad is working. And then I like to go into the ad and see, well, why is it working? And oftentimes it's not what you expect. It's like, oh, this had something catchy in it and it was some sort of warmth and entertainment. And then finally it got to the content. It finally it got to the close.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So this is the curse of smart people. This is why we have so many failed Entrepreneurs and failed businesses is because they're super smart. And that is actually a problem in communication. Super smart people have great ideas. They have data to back it up. They have the whole plan. But if you do not know how to pitch your idea or package your idea with warmth, people will not believe it. And so smart people rely very heavily on, I'm gonna put an ad and say, you know, 50% returns or 20% cheaper than the competitor. But people don't buy from just competence alone. They have to trust you first.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, that's such a good point. You know, speaking of trust, it also reminds me that as the bigger you get, the bigger the target that you have. And, you know, we love David until he becomes Goliath. And one thing that we've talked about before that I thought was genius is thinking about how somebody like Taylor Swift stays so high on the warmth scale when she is a billionaire. She is highly competent, gorgeous, and she gets, you know, her tickets are 5x more expensive than anybody else, and yet people love her. Can you talk a little bit about what you see in T. Swift?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So you're so generous because actually, I was totally making fun of T. Swift. Okay? I love her, but I was making fun of her because she does a specific nonverbal cue that just kills me. Because it is. Here's what it is. Whenever she walks into a room, you watch her documentary, half of the documentary is her doing what I call the humble cue, which is this.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's true.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And so she's in a stadium, a sold out stadium with like, whatever, 50,000 people. And she's like, how did you all get here? Oh, my gosh. For me, that. We love it.

[Cody Sanchez]

We love it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

We love it because she's. We're like, she's so successful. She so knows her stuff. But look at how humble she is, right? This is why these documentaries are working. This is why so many people are doing them. Is because. What do you see? Oh, he's so successful. He's on stage. But then you see him, like, making his own coffee.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, he spills a little. Like, there are studies on this where Dr. Richard Wiseman had a model try to sell a blender in a mall. Okay? A blender. And he did two trials of this experiment. One where she did a demo of the blender. Hi, Good morning, folks. We're gonna demo this blender for you. Strawberry, banana. Here's the blender. Smoothies for all. Okay? A perfect presentation. Then she had the second version of this. Same words, same smoothie, same everything. But she spills the smoothie. Hi everyone. So happy to sell you this blender, strawberry man. Oh no, here's that smoothie for you. So sorry. The blender when she made the mistake. She sold so many more of that blender when she made the mistake. Because I think people were like real vulnerable. It's okay. And so when I talk about warmth, it's also vulnerability. It's also admitting the problem or the mistake or making a mistake or not having a perfect pitch, which for smart people, they are allergic to.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, it's true.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Allergic to it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Like, I have so much respect for Mel Robbins.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Cody Sanchez]

Because she's so good at showing her vulnerabilities and being honest about some of the stuff that's going on in the world. And I think that people see that and go, okay, if she's willing to.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Share that, she must be real. Can I tell you how she does it also? So she does it verbally. But here's a non verbal cue that Mel uses and I should make fun of Mel for this. She's the only other interview I did this year other than you. So this is her nonverbal cue. Ready? Guys? Guys, can I just tell you this one tip? She self touches her face. Yeah, probably just like totally mess up.

[Cody Sanchez]

No, you look great.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So the nonverbal. Okay, so self touching your face is a cue of anxiety or nervousness. It is also a vulnerability. So you will notice that I think Mel Robbins touches her face far more than any other influencer. And you know what? We love it. We love it because we know instinctively. I think Cornell found that were four behaviors. Nonverbal behaviors that trigger untrustworthiness, like make you not want to trust a person. Touching the face or the hair is one of them. Touching the stomach, rubbing your arms, and I believe lack of eye contact, they just signal distrust. So when Mel gets on video and she self touches it immediately makes you think, oh, is she nervous? Oh, me too.

[Cody Sanchez]

Ah, wait, but how does that work? So this usually makes you not like somebody or not trust somebody.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I said signals untrustworthiness because we think of make they're nervous. But if she's giving us really competent advice, we're like, oh, she's nervous, but she's giving us good advice.

[Cody Sanchez]

Interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I want to be very clear. All these cues do not have to do with your actual trust.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like we're talking about perceptions of trust and competence, which are just as important as your actual trust and competence. And that's what I think a lot of smart people get Wrong is they think I have the best system, I have the best business and I'm trustworthy. Of course people will buy. And then they're shocked why no one buys. Or they don't understand why their sales teams cannot close. It is because I listen in on these sales calls and I can tell you down to the cue why they are not closing. And it is because they can have the best pitch in the world, the best script, but if they are giving away their competence, people will not believe them.

[Cody Sanchez]

Interesting. Yeah. And I think often when people try to sell in business, they try to maybe promise what they actually can deliver, which is like a good night's sleep Casper mattress. And people go, that's too hard. There's no way you could possibly deliver that to me. And so they almost oversell the thing that they actually do. But they'd be better off saying pretty good night's sleep. Yeah, a little bit better than your last night's sleep masks. And people go, okay, that's probably doable. And I think that's a great. Yeah, that's a great point. In marketing and sales too.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I think that their tagline was something like reliable prices with science backed engineering. Like even their tagline was the perfect blends of warmth and competence words. And they were very honest with, like, here are how our engineers have tested this mattress. And so you could kind of see the process. So another way you can add warmth is you can show behind the scenes. Like I think that like when you're showing behind the scenes, people are like, oh, she's real.

[Cody Sanchez]

Totally.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And so like that's the other way. The other element you can add there is like real behind the scenes as well.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, I don't think enough people, we talk about this a lot here too, which is document, don't create. And it's really hard to do actually because you're in it, you're working and. But if you can actually document, okay, we're going to save a business today. Okay, we just closed on a deal right here. Then people actually can see you doing it. In a world with the lowest trust levels since before the age of the Internet, it's necessary, so it's smart. Now I want to talk a little bit about, like, I think a lot of times in first interactions we're scared. We're scared to pitch, we're scared for an interview, we're scared to sell. Can you hide fear? Does it matter? Can other people feel that?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You're not going to like this answer very much, but our emotions are contagious. And so if you're afraid, people will pick up on it. So there's a study that changed the way that I think about this, which is they brought people into their lab and they sold them off to two different groups. One group, they wore sweatsuits and ran on a treadmill. So they got sweat into the suit and they collected the sweat. Second group, they said, you're going to skydive for the first time, put them in sweatsuits and push them out of a plane. They took the two samples of sweat. This is where it gets kind of gross. They asked unsuspecting participants to smell both of the sweat. They had no idea what they were smelling in an FMRI machine. Everyone who smelled the fear sweat, the skydiving sweat, caught the fear. They had no idea what they were smelling, but their amygdala lit up where they were afraid. What this shows us is that when you are afraid, you are sending off all kinds of signals. You don't even realize not only your face, not only your voice, but also even your chemical physiology. And so this is why I think it's really critically important for my introverted entrepreneurs, my introverted business owners, is you got to get yourself right before you walk into a room. And you got to know your stuff, right? Like, no one can fake warmth and competence. I can give you the cues to help. But if you are truly afraid that you don't know your numbers or you don't know your stuff, people are going to pick up on it. That, I think, is the definition of inauthenticity, right? It's like you're faking a number or you're faking warmth with someone. Now, I will say that I think that we can convert our fear into different kinds of social energy. So it's very important for people to understand, are you an introvert, ambivert, or extrovert? Most people think of just introvert and extrovert. There's actually a third category, and most people are ambiverts. And you have to be very precise about what causes you fear or drains your battery and what gives you energy. For example, I am an ambivert. I can kind of switch between the two. I know who gives me energy. Like, I leave being like, yes. Like when we hang out with our group of girlfriends, I feel energized after. I don't feel drained. Whereas I have certain people where I'm like, in a coma afterwards. Right?

[Cody Sanchez]

We've all felt that, right?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So you gotta know, who are the people, what are the places who are the teammates or the tasks that drain you the fastest. And then you should divide your energy like a social battery that helps conquer the fear. Because being a little bit afraid because you're nervous is not a bad thing. But being drained and afraid, that's a deal breaker.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's a great point. So basically, you could, even if you're scared, you could at least be prepared to be scared.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Exactly. And you can know, okay, I'm bringing my favorite team member. I'm bringing my favorite wing woman. I love my deck. I just redesigned my slides. It's gorgeous. I have warmth and competence. That's going to make me feel good. So even though you're a little bit afraid pitching out there, you know your stuff, you know your deck, you have your wing woman, and you're doing it at an ideal time for you. Right. Like, you can begin to. We can game our energy in that way. And that's really important on teams as well. Like, you should know your team members. Who's introverted and who's extroverted on your team. Who's ambiverted on your team? Your introverts never put them on the spot for collaboration. That's an insult to them. Right. If you want them to collaborate or share their idea, send them an email ahead of time and say, hey, tomorrow we're doing a strategy session. I'm going to be talking about some big ideas for X in the fall. I would love your ideas on how we can do things differently.

[Cody Sanchez]

Interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That gives them 24 hours to prepare for that. Prepare for it. As opposed to bump, you know, in the room, they're going to trigger fear, right? You're going to say, what are your ideas next for the fall? And they're going to be like, huh? Not because they're not smart, but because they're in a situation that makes them feel uncomfortable.

[Cody Sanchez]

What personality tests do you use for your team in order to tell who is what?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so I highly recommend, if you're going to hire, do behavioral interviewing. So that's less like skill and strength based and that's more behavior based. And my favorite practice for hiring is doing Alphabet work. So this is basically figuring out what is your ABCD work and what is their ABCD work. Very simply, this is your. A work is work that you are better at than most people. What are you better at than most people? Where do you hit flow? What are you most productive in? A work, tasks and communication. B work. B work is the trick. B work is what trips up my smart people. B work. You're pretty good at, but you're not great at it. You're not better than everyone at it. And you can get away with it, but you kind of dread it. C work, you're average. You do it just like everyone else. It kind of clunky, it kind of takes you a while and you can get by. D work is work you are terrible at. You're worse than most people and it's going to look terrible. The mistake that people make when they hire is they hire people who have their A work and then they hire the person and then you both want the A work. You are better off hiring someone who is opposite to you. Their D work is your A work, your A work is their D work. Or if you really, really want to be efficient, hire someone who you can give away your B work to. B work, I think slows most people down. We were talking about this earlier is if you can give away your B work to give more time for A work, you're so much more efficient. And so you want to think very strategically about what's the behavior of how people are thinking.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, that's really good. You know, in that vein, I think a lot of times in our businesses, it's not just are they competent and can this person come in and do the task.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's not skill based. That's skill based, C or D. But.

[Cody Sanchez]

It'S also, who are they as a human? And I think about this in a way, like, what is better to have in your business as a coworker, Is it better to have a toxic coworker or is it better to have sort of a fake coworker that you're a little ambivalent with? Like, what's the difference between the two?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, I have a very strong opinion on this, which is I prefer a toxic coworker to a frenemy. I prefer a toxic worker to a fake friend. Here's why. When we know someone is toxic or difficult, we are very clear in our head, we don't go to lunch with them, we don't need to catch up on the weekend. We know their strength and their skills and that's what we go to them for. And then we create parameters around their difficulty. When you're fake with someone or you're ambivalent, and I call this like a fake friend. When you're like, do I like them? Are they doing a good job? Do they, do they like me? Right? Like, this is people also with friends who you're like, was that a neg? Was that passive aggressive? Or are they Actually supporting me, that actually drains you far faster than a toxic person. There's a study about this. So they did it with police officers, and they categorized everyone's relationships in this precinct, and they found that the officers who had more ambivalent relationships, like relationships with the co workers, where they were like, do I want to go to lunch with them or would I rather eat a sandwich alone? Ambivalent. The more ambivalent relationships they had, the worse their happiness was. The more sick days they took, the lower their workplace satisfaction. Actually, police officers who had more toxic coworkers were totally okay because they knew that's not my person. So I think that a lot of this, especially as adults, is like, who are my people? Great. That's my person. And that's my person. And that's not my person. That's not my person. When you are very clear on that, that actually helps you streamline your social energy. If you are not sure if someone likes you, if you are not sure that someone's not doing a good job, it's time to make a change.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's so interesting. Have you ever thought that it wasn't working with somebody or that they weren't the right person, made a decision, made a change, let them go, moved on and regretted it?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No.

[Cody Sanchez]

I know. Me neither. Isn't that crazy? It's actually fascinating because I've asked every leader, every time that question. No, Never have I had a leader go, dang it, I wish I hadn't let that person go. Never. Dang it. I wish I still hung out with that person.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Same with friends.

[Cody Sanchez]

Why do we wait so long and, like, beat ourselves up so much about it?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Because we're human.

[Cody Sanchez]

If that's the answer.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I mean, we're human. We feel bad, you know, and also, like, we're hopeful. Like, I feel I am fundamentally a believer in the good of human beings. And so we really want to make it work. Like, we really try, and we hope that they're going to change or we're going to change, but you know what? You're doing them a disservice.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, I've realized the exact same thing. And often you don't. Like, you don't need to have a God complex if it's not working out for them with you. They are probably perfectly suited for something else than somebody else, and you're holding them back by keeping them with you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's how I feel.

[Cody Sanchez]

We just did something really cool. If you've ever thought about buying a business or want to understand what the word seller Financing mean you've got to try this. So basically you fill out this application right here and we sort every single human who comes through this list to the right tool and resource for them when it comes to buying a business, when it comes to finding financing for buying a business, and when it comes to building a business. So you get directed to our member of experience or one of our members of experience and they find the right tools and resources for you. Some of this stuff is just free. Like, oh, hey, you don't understand seller financing. Here's an article for you. Some of it is, wow, you really are ready for the 303 level. You should do the workshop. Some of it is like, you know what, Start here with our first little entry guide. I want to make sure that I get every single human only what they need when they need it to become an owner. You might like this. Hit the link in the description below and we will sort you to figure out what kind of business buyer are you. So let's say you are hiring and you want to figure out if somebody's lying to you or not. How do you do that?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, my favorite topic. So I love lie detection research. In fact, we've done a lot of research in our lab on, we've had people submit videos of themselves lying. We have a whole process for doing it. And then we analyze them for cues, looking for patterns. And there is no Pinocchio's nose. There's no one cue that says someone's lying. But there are statistical cues to deceit. There are cues that we saw over and over again in the lying answers. So here are a couple of those lie detection cues. So the first, most obvious one is when something's incongruent. So someone says something, but their body shows another. So I'll give you a really good example. One of the challenges we have them do is two truths and a lie, where they say two truths about themselves and a lie on the lie. So many people shook their head no.

[Cody Sanchez]

Whoa.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So if you'll see this, if you're like, so what do you think of the new girl? You know, she's great. So a nod not in India, Pakistan and Bulgaria. So that's a cultural note on that one. I try to be careful with my universality. But for nodding, if someone says yes, they should be shaking their head yes or neutral. If someone says no, they should be shaking their head no. And you will often catch a lie when someone is incongruent. When they're like, my daughter, I'll be like, did you Take an extra cookie. No. And she'll shake her head yes. And I'm like, are you sure?

[Cody Sanchez]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, I know another one is. Another incongruent is people will flash a micro expression that is counter to what they're saying. Like a big one with lying is disgust. Lying makes us feel dirty. We do not like to lie. We know it can get us into trouble. And so oftentimes when people lie, they flash a disgust microexpression. Here's what a disgust microexpression looks like when we crinkle our nose up and flash the upper whites of our teeth like this. So you'll see it's very unnatural. If you try it.

[Cody Sanchez]

It doesn't feel very.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You don't do this naturally, but here's what it looks like when someone's lying. So what do you think about the new girl? Yeah, you know, she's great. Yeah. And they're holding that disgust expression, which means not really. Not really. And that's your opportunity. So when you see something incongruent, you say, you know, it's totally fine if, like, you're not jiving. Like, I know it takes a little bit of time. Do you have any concerns? Usually just one question that clarifies gives them permission to tell you the truth. And so you want to look for incongruent nods. You want to look for incongruent facial expressions. Or like, the big obvious one is a fake smile. When someone says they're happy. This is important for sales and important for hiring, Right? So if someone says, yeah, I would be so happy to work here. And their smile is on the bottom half of their face. The only true indicator of a smile is when these upper cheek muscles are activated. So anyone can fake smile. Right. I can do this all day long and not actually feel happy. But only 1 in 10 people can consciously activate these muscles. Up to you. What if we get Botox hard?

[Cody Sanchez]

She might never be able to tell.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Don't go to California. Watch out. You got a lot of expression. Also, like, I don't think you can actually Botox your entire cheek.

[Cody Sanchez]

No. Well, I bet you could.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Well.

[Cody Sanchez]

But I don't think you should.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Any activation up here is good. It's a good indicator of happiness because. So if someone. This is important, I think, also for, like, looking for authenticity. So if someone's like, yeah, you know, I just. I love your company and I've just been following you for years, and I just think this is like a dream job.

[Cody Sanchez]

Do a real one. Do a real one for me.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I Love your company. I just, I think it's so amazing I've been following you for years. Yeah, interesting, right? Like that hit my upper cheek muscles. I can consciously activate muscles because I've trained them, but a lot of people cannot. And so you're looking for like, why did she say she was happy, but she wasn't actually happy? Same thing with contempt. So I think this is the most powerful of the microexpressions. It's one of my favorite cues. It's a one sided mouth raise. So this smirk, first of all, make sure you don't have it in your profile pictures. That is a micro expression of contempt. So negativity, disdain, scorn. So if you're with someone and you say, you know that the benefits package actually only includes about seven vacation days, are you okay with that? Yeah, yeah, that's fine.

[Cody Sanchez]

Not okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Not fine. Not fine. You're gonna get pushback on that. That's gonna create resentment. Contempt is a beast of an emotion because it is the seed of disrespect. So Dr. John Gottman, marriage and family counselor, he did a huge research experiment on married couples. He wanted to know if he could predict divorce. He filmed these couples. He did in depth history of these couples. He followed them for years. He found there was one single indicator of which couple would get divorced. And it was in the initial intake interview. One member of the couple showed contempt towards the other. So I can watch a silent video of a couple and tell you with pretty good accuracy if they're going to get divorced. He can watch a video, a silent video of a couple and predict with 93.7% accuracy if that couple will get divorced within 30 years. And that is because contempt, when it comes up, it's a better than it's scorn. If it's not addressed, it festers and it grows. And that's how you get at the end of a marriage. People can't even look at each other. And so if you have an employee or a friend or a partner who is showing contempt at you or something, you say immediately pause and address it. What can we do here? How are you really feeling about this? Is there anything you want to tell me? That is an opportunity for you to find out what is really going on.

[Cody Sanchez]

Brilliant. So you notice that somebody in your company has contempt.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Cody Sanchez]

Because they're doing something like this.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They're doing a smart fake smile, one sided mouth raise. Yep.

[Cody Sanchez]

And then the next thing that you do is you note it. And without going direct at it, you don't say, you look, you say you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Can try that, but not gonna feel great.

[Cody Sanchez]

You say what?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so you have two options here, right? So you can just note it as a leader, especially if it's like in a team meeting. You just noted it. Right. And also what it's about, sometimes people show contempt because they had a bad day. Right? Like maybe you mentioned the weekend and they don't like what they have planned for the weekend. So it's only if it's relevant to something that you can actually do or change. Also, you might not be able to change something. You should just note, okay, they're going to not feel good about that. Then you have the choice of how are you going to pursue. I personally like just information gathering. Right. So, hey, I just want to follow up with you on the meeting either by email or in person, whichever you prefer. How are you feeling about this change? How you feeling about the update? I just want to check in with you and see how everything's going. Do you have any questions for me? Right, like that open ended is step one. Step two is what do they usually.

[Cody Sanchez]

Say at that point? Do they usually.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my gosh, Usually they're like, oh, thank goodness you asked me because let me tell you, I am not happy about this new rollout. And yeah, right. So that's. That's option one. And almost always that works. The second option is you can try again. So you can be like, you could break up the option again. Just want to go over it, make sure it all makes sense. Sometimes people are contemptuous when they're confused. You get some people who are like, why don't I understand this? They're contemptuous about it. So sometimes just re explaining it again, you don't see the contempt. Good. Right? So oftentimes it can even be a clarity issue. Like sometimes a mistake I see entrepreneurs make is you say, so what's your business? What do you do? And they give you the most complicated answer I've ever heard in a million years.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And you see people like, okay, cool, right? They're not contemptuous of you. They don't understand, and they're contemptuous of that. Right? So if you're introducing yourself, you're explaining something, you're like, gosh, Vanessa, I'm seeing this contempt everywhere. You are overcomplicating it. You need to go for clarity over confusion. People should be able to very quickly understand what you do and who you are and what you want from them.

[Cody Sanchez]

Now I find myself smirking because you've.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Done it so many times. You're Mirroring me.

[Cody Sanchez]

I'm mirroring you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. So that's a funny thing, is also, like, mirror neurons are absolutely unconscious. And now you probably want to smirk because you can see I'm activating these muscles. Right. And you're even doing the same side, which is kind of funny. So that is a very human response. So mirror neurons activate when we see someone make an emotion. This is another reason why emotions are contagious. If you show up and you were excited about your business, excited about whatever you're pitching, you're showing so many cues of excitement, and then you can't help but smile with me, if you are fake smiling, you are less contagious. Dr. Barbara Wild found this. She showed people two pictures. One of people authentically smiling and one of people fake smiling. Everyone who saw the happy, the real smile caught it. Their mood got better. Everyone who saw the fake smile, even though they didn't know it was a fake smile, had no behavior change, no mood change. So when we are truly happy, we are literally more infectious. So, yes, I think our mirror neurons are a big part of, like, getting yourself right. And also, like, love your business, love your people, because it's real hard to fake it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. Let's talk about the difference between men and women.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay.

[Cody Sanchez]

Is there a difference in men and women and what you need to do to be attractive and likable?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my goodness. Okay, so there's two questions here. So there is big differences between men and women, and that is because men and women send off inherently different cues and different signals. Typically, not always. Women have higher voice tones. Right? Typically, not always. Women use the question inflection more. And that's cultural. Right. A lot of times, women have been taught, be liked, so they're as parents. Not always, but their warmth, warmth, warmth. Whereas boys are taught, get ahead, be respected. So they're often taught competence, competence, competence. So in the research, by the way, this is Dr. Susan Fisk's research from Prince University. She found. She calls it the stereotype content model, which is that women, by default, are seen as higher in warmth and lower incompetence. Men, by default, are seen as higher in competence and lower in warmth. Now, I say great to know. Like, I would rather know that. That is why I dial up my competence in my presentations when I'm corporate speaking. The name of my business is science of people.

[Cody Sanchez]

Right?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, that is the most competent name that you could possibly have, because I know I'm fighting a default that's higher and warmth. But I also use that to my Advantage sometimes as well. So it's just important to know that default for you. And then you can purposely dial up as you wish. You know, you have a high, higher incompetence, and you have to work towards warmth. Right. Like, we gotta get you some pink, get you some lace. Right?

[Cody Sanchez]

We gotta work on it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And you're nodding, but that puts us in control. So I'm like, yes, let's know these biases, because we are inventing control of being able to dial up as we wish.

[Cody Sanchez]

How do you see women do it wrong? Because I've seen in the workplace, at least, there was a generation where they had to be tougher. They had to show super high levels of competence, otherwise they wouldn't get ahead. And then, in my opinion, something went a little sideways there for a while where, because we had to do that for so long, then we kind of overcorrected, and we went too hard. And so do you ever see common mistakes women make on the level of moving from warmth to competence?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. And it is two words. Vocal fry. I don't know why, but there is an epidemic for women, more specifically, where they'll say a really great idea, but they don't deliver it well because they're a little bit nervous about it. And so they deliver it with a little bit of, like, vocal fry. So they change their voice tone. So, like, it's more like here, where you hear that kind of sizzling factor. Well, it's really hard to, like, believe an idea when it's delivered like this.

[Cody Sanchez]

It makes me want to cry for some reason. I feel, like, uncomfortable for you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I feel like getting watery. It's horrible.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's awful.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And so I hear this all the time, and I think it's, like, a fear or a lack of assertiveness. And so that is one of the biggest things that women can do to immediately take back their vocal competence is speak louder if you have vocal fry, and you're like, how do I get rid of this? Just speak a little bit louder. It immediately gets rid of it. That is because the moment you add more breath, it gets vocal fry. Gross. Is your vocal cord rubbing together like crickets. That's what it is. So the moment you add more breath, it gets rid of it. If you hear someone underserving themselves, like an employee or someone is pitching and they're using vocal fry, say, hey, would you mind speaking up? It will immediately get rid of their vocal fry. So that's a really big cue that I see. And women don't understand why they're not being taken seriously or they're being interrupted or they're being underestimated or they're being passed over.

[Cody Sanchez]

Interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's because they're accidentally giving it away.

[Cody Sanchez]

What about men?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Hmm? Men. It's so hard to make universals with men. Ah, no, I know it. I know it. Ugh, this drives me crazy. Men think that to be powerful is to be stoic and unreadable. So recently especially, I see men who are like, oh, Vanessa, I don't need cues. I have no cues. And they will be these leaders who are. They've gotten rid of all facial expressions. They've literally learned to keep their face completely still. They have no movement, no nodding, no head tilting. They literally sit and listen to ideas completely still with no give back. The problem with that is no cues is a cue in itself. We understand muting, like muting as a problem with charisma. So when you are mute or you under express, it immediately gets rid of your warmth and your competence. So I see these leaders who have trained themselves to go completely still, typically male, and they're like, why doesn't my team open up to me? Why is everyone quitting? Why can't I close these deals? And I'm like, it's because you are so still faced. And this is something called the still face experiment. When you are with someone and I am completely still face and completely still body, it is so physically hard for you to open up to me. Like, if you were making no movement and no encouragement, no facial expressions, it would be physically hard for me to talk. And so a mistake that I see men make is they mute and they don't realize that they are losing. It's costing them loyalty.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, yeah, I've been.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You've been in there?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You're also. You're married to some. Yes.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You know, because a lot of military men are taught that to survive.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, for sure.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So I have so many amazing vets. We, we love our vets. And the problem they have is they've gotten rid of all their cues because it was risky for them. And so they used no cues to survive, literally. And now they have to relearn. What cues am I going to pick to do this? One of the first cues I teach men, by the way, if this is you, if you're like, oh, man, I totally under emote, like, no one can read my face, people are going to tell you you're cold, intimidating, hard to talk to. That's how you know that's you. One of the first cues I'm going to teach you is visible hands. So this works also in the military. So a lot of folks that we have in the military, they'll use this because visible hands is an immediate trust signal. It immediately warms you up, especially in your first impression. The moment you hop on a video call. Morning. Good to see everyone. That one cue, it wasn't a lot of movement, but it's very easy to do. It's a greeting. It's warmth, right when you're, when you're talking, the more you can have your palms out, palms visible. We love to see a palm. It's an immediate warmth. And it's much easier typically for men than like, howdy, they're not going to do that with their face. So like, even like. Let me tell you about an idea that we have coming up. Just that, just that one palm flash. A palm flash is really nice for like, I'm open. I'm open to your ideas. I'm not concealing anything. It actually goes back to like a very primal part of our brain. We love to see a palm. We at our lab, I analyze thousands of hours of of TED talks with my team looking for patterns. And what we found was the difference between the viral TED talks and the least viral TED talks were. The most viral TED speakers used an average of over 400 hand gestures in 18 minutes, whereas the least viewed TED talks used about 270 gestures in 18 minutes. What's happening here? The best TED talks all start the same way, like this. Today I want to talk to you about a big idea. We're going to talk about three different ways it can change your life.

[Cody Sanchez]

That is true.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They're all like that. And it's also the TED talk voice, right? Like there is a TED Talk voice. And like, for some reason, like, I can be like, I'm going to say something and it's going to be so important. And you just know that because of the words that I'm using. And that voice tone tells you that this is something that we have to remember. Because you know what? 30% of people believe that I'm not saying anything, but my vocal tone is cueing you. So there's a voice tone for TED and there's a hand gesture for ted. First of all, the best TED talkers, they greet everyone on stage with an open gesture, big open gestures, and they typically align their gestures with their words. The most competent, charismatic speakers are explaining their concepts to you with their visual gestures and their words. So if I were to say to you, Cody, I have a really Big idea. It's huge. You're like, it's not. Vanessa. I can see how small it is. It's really small. And that is because your brain believes my gesture more than my word. They've actually shown that gestures carry more weight than words because it's hard to lie with our gestures. Like, let's try an experiment. I want you to say three, but hold up five. Are you ready? Three. Horribly hard, hard, hard. You can try that.

[Cody Sanchez]

I thought you gave me a little time. I pictured it in my head, and I can do it. It's.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Your brain does not like lying with gestures. So very charismatic speakers, they get on TED stage, they have visible gestures. This is for all my stoic men, right? You have a visible gesture, and then you're going to align. So if you have three big ideas, just hold three big ideas. Right? If we have phase one and phase two, we have those two phases. It's very easy for you to picture that politically. You'll notice that very good political speakers, they are literally outlining their talk for you with their gestures. If they have a really small idea, they're like, this is no big deal. Look how small it is. Right? If they're like, this is a big problem. You're like, whoa, it's beach ball big. It's big, Right? Right. If they're like. And you'll notice, some people will be like, you know, the other guys over here. And every time they talk about those other guys, they show disgust and, like, it's smelly, that hand. And you begin to associate that hand with those bad guys. And then he or she doesn't even have to say about those guys. You just know those horrible guys.

[Cody Sanchez]

Interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So, like, that makes it easier for our brains to grok very complicated concepts. I'm getting ahead of myself, but I think that that's. It's important to be able to think about it both.

[Cody Sanchez]

How many views did your TED talk get?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Over 4 million, girl.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. You were, like, one of the most viewed TED talks of all time.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

All time. But that research got me my TED Talk.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's wild.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So that the research on TED and how we're contagious from stage is what got me.

[Cody Sanchez]

So one other thing that I want to talk about is do you feel like we nailed the. How you got tricked into a bad hire? The abcd? I thought we did, too. I did it with a different question. I liked it. What about the biggest mistakes that people can make in communicating their ideas internally to their company, not just externally? So we talked about how to Open up meetings. We talked about how to do pitches, but you and I obsess all day when we're talking about how do we build bigger companies and how do we sell internally. And I don't think a lot of people think about that. So what do bad leaders do or what mistakes do we make when we communicate internally?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

What people don't realize is that your internal marketing to your team is just as important as your external marketing. You've got to get your team on board on an idea and how you want. I think the mistake that people make is they frame ideas or initiatives or phases as like vitamins. As like this is good for the team. So like a vitamin idea would be like, guys, our software is really out of date and we gotta switch to that new lms, we gotta switch to that new CRM software. It's gonna be good for the team. I know it's gonna be painful, but we gotta do it. What team member is going to be like, yeah, whoa. You as a business owner can do vitamin things for your business. You can do things that are good for the business, that have long term, a short term pain, but long term gain. Your team members aren't thinking that way. You're lucky if they're thinking six months to a year at your company. So you want to try to emphasize what is the painkiller? Why is this going to help us immediately? That's going to help them get over that short term pain. So the difference between a vitamin, painkiller, vitamin is like, this is good for us. It's going to be really, you know, we should do it. A painkiller is like, you know how you're having lower close rates because we lose contact cards. That problem will be gone next week. Literally gone. Now we're going to have to set up some stuff. We're going to do the back end, but that will no longer be a complaint for you. It fixes the problem in day one. Now that's one feature of the new CRM or the new software. But if you know that is a complaint of your sales team, that's how you're going to your sales team. That pain point you've been coming to me about for the last six months, it's gonna fix it. Done. I prioritize that for you. Now there's 15 other things that has to be done. But boy, oh boy, don't you want to get rid of that headache? And maybe for the HR team it's like, hey, you know how we've been? It's been a Nightmare. Tracking all the contact with people. No more. This totally fixes all of it. It puts it all in one place.

[Cody Sanchez]

Brilliant.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So it's painkillers, not vitamins. Even internally.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. We talk a lot about issues with communicating with our spouses because we're actually buddies in real life.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Cody Sanchez]

And we also have a friend who's like, sort of a relationship guru person. So I know you and I typically don't love to talk about our relationships publicly, so let's do it, like, externally, but, like, these days, man, I mean, we have people getting married later than ever. We have people having less sex. We have people being in less committed relationships. Divorce is up. I think it's hard for young people finding somebody. What advice do you have or what research do you have to show how to better connect with a member of the opposite sex if you're single?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so I want to actually answer this in two ways. I want to answer it for single people, and I want to answer it for couple people.

[Cody Sanchez]

Let's do it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so this is amazing research. It changed my relationship with my husband and actually some close family members, which is. Dr. Dan McAdams found that we connect through three different levels when we're with someone we're trying to pass through. First, level one, general traits. What do you do? Where you're from? What's your value system? Very, very basics. Level two, personal concerns. What worries you? What are your motivations? What are your goals? Level three, the hardest one. We're not there with most people in our life. Self narrative. What is the story you tell yourself about yourself? And so in single people, I think what's really important is understanding those three levels and knowing how to break through from level one to level three. You can do this with 15 questions. So we've actually been diving into this research, and I found five questions for each level that you can actually use to break through. So, for example, in the very first level I want you to ask about, this is not just, what do you do? It's what excites you? What's been the highlight of your week? What are you learning right now? Those are questions that are like, not just like, where do you vacation? Like, not just like, oh, what do you do for fun. Right. Like, there are questions that are actually beginning to untangle some deeper connective tissue. Then you want to try to graduate. Like, you want to actually move to level two questions. Level two questions are, you know, you're on level two with someone. If, you know, what do they worry about when they fall asleep at Night, what do they think about when they get up in the morning? If you don't know the answer to those questions, you're not close enough. I think I probably know what keeps you up at night and what gets you in the morning. I think you know that about me too, right? So you should also be doing this with your friend, your friends. But literally asking like, what worries you? What's the thing that keeps you up at night? What motivates you? What are you driving towards? What's your biggest goal this year? So those are value based personality questions. And the last level, and this is the hardest one, is what's the story they tell themselves about themselves? I think what's really important is you want to know what their narrative is. And in our research, and this is new research, I'm finding there are basically three different self narratives. And you want to know what you're getting into. The first one is my favorite. It's a hero self narrative. You want a hero if you can. In a relationship, a hero self narrative is something like this. I have challenges and problems, but with hard work and grit and determination, I overcome them. And that is their narrative for everything. Their childhood, their work, their workout routine. Like you have. Choose your heart. Like that is a self. That is a perfect example of a hero self narrative. You'll find something, conquer it, and then be done with it. Have success with it. You like that because in a relationship that sets you up for success, they know it's not easy, right? Like they know it might take a little bit of hard work, but they want the success. The second self narrative, I call a healer self narrative. This is typically someone who their entire life is giving. Like they're always trying to fix and heal. They're typically in social work, teaching, the medical profession. They are givers. And that can be a problem. It's not a bad thing. But it can be a problem because they typically are people pleasers. They typically don't sign up for themselves. They're also the friend who says yes to everything and then cancels last minute. Because they cannot say no in the moment because they really want to. But they are so overextended. You should know that going into relationship that you might have stand up for them and they will probably overextend themselves. Or you might be in a relationship where you want a healer. The last one is the one you want to watch out for, which is a victim self narrative. A victim self narrative starts like the hero. Challenges, mistakes, problems, but they couldn't overcome that no matter how Hard they worked. They weren't able to change anything. They typically are the ones who feel they have very bad luck. And over and over again, these are the friends where it's like nothing's ever fixed. You give them advice they can't figured out. Woe is me. Everyone's against me. You want to watch out for that. Because they will never be able to get out of that if that's how they see their whole life. That's literally their narrative about how their life goes. So as a single person, if you can try to answer those questions, go through them, I'm happy to give them away. They're on my website. Ask those questions early. Send them to your group chats. Ask the first three and then the second three ask them on different dates because then you're purposely connecting and you're moving up the levels. If you're in a relationship, I highly Recommend do all 15 questions once a year.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, it's brilliant.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

The answers change. It is amazing when I ask my husband some of these questions how his answers have changed. I've been with my husband for 18 years and it is amazing how much his answers and my answers have changed. And so every year on our anniversary, we ask and answer all 15 questions and that has been a game changer. I'll give you one example with a friend. So one of the Level 3 questions is what book, movie or TV character is most like you and why? It's a value based question. So it's not like who looks like you? It's like what character really has values like you? I had a really good friend I'd known for years. I thought we were super close. I was like, oh yeah, we're on level three. Mom of three, stay at home mom, funny, smart. I was like, oh yeah. Her self narrative is probably like a funny TV mom. Like that's her. I asked her this question immediately. She's like, oh, Katniss Everdeen from the Hunger Games. I was like, what? She's like, oh, yeah. I feel like I'm surviving every day. We had the best conversation that we had ever had. She was living a life that I had no idea. True hero self narrative, which I knew, but I had no idea how much struggle she was having. And so these questions unlock aspects of people that truly can change and level up your connections.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's so beautiful too because all anyone, anybody really wants is somebody to listen to them and somebody to show them.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

A little love and someone to understand them. Yeah, you want to be listened to, but you also want to be understood.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, that's true.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

These questions are seeking to understand.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, that's right. Because it's not enough to just listen. Yeah, I hear you. I don't really understand.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Exactly. So these questions are not just like, what do you do for fun? Oh, that's cool. I don't like that. These are, like, questions that are specifically geared toward what is the narrative in their head. And if you're going to be with someone in a marriage or a friendship, you want to know how they're talking to themselves, because you know what? That's going to be, how they talk to you.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, it's brilliant. Yeah. And also, I think, on top of that, how much more interesting are you if your conversations go that way? I mean, can you imagine a first day, you have those 15 questions prepped, you weave them in. Don't be a psychopath, and, like, you know, interrogate them through this, through the questions. I mean, don't do it. I feel like. But if you weave that in with, like, the, you know, you can't start with.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And the level one questions are actually like that.

[Cody Sanchez]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You can't be like, what's your deepest fear? Date one. No, that's level two. And actually, that's a mistake that people make in dating is they are trying to speed up. They're, like, trying to speed up connection. So they ask level two question. The person is, like, totally freaked out. No, level one questions are like sneakers. They're, like, sneaky questions. Like, they're getting to a little bit of depth. They don't sound really bad. So, yeah, you want to weave them in. I also am, like, a big fan of, like, listen, like, I watched this great podcast with Cody and Vanessa, and they had these 15 questions for new couples. Like, would you be willing to try the first three? Cute, right? Like, transparent, warm, vulnerable. Like, you're competent. You're listening to Cody's podcast.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. You're warm.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And you really want to ask them.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, I am for radical transparency. Like, you know, if I don't want to do something, I'm like, no, I'm not doing it. Right. Like, you do. I am for it. And so, like, I'm like, you want to ask them 15 questions because you like them. Tell them, I like you so much that I want to go to level three with you. But we're on day one, so can we start with the first three questions? Right. Like, your face looks bad. Are you contemptuous of me? Please tell me. Like, I'm for it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, I like that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'M for it. And so that's, by the way, like, you asked about likable and attractive, and that's what makes us likeable and attractive, is we're asking, like, really intentional questions that are opening up the lines of connection in a totally different way.

[Cody Sanchez]

Hey, y'all. I don't know about you guys, but this podcast is killing me. She is so good. So if you are loving this podcast, like, I am like a little possum digging in trash, just looking for buried treasure, I think you should make sure to give this a review. We are obsessing on this one idea, which is, can we get a bunch of humans to tell us what you really think about this podcast, what you want, what you don't? I read every single one of the reviews on there. So put your little myths on those five stars if you feel like it and give us some feedback. I appreciate every single one of you. Let's go back to Vanessa. I want to talk really quickly about introverts in business.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Cody Sanchez]

Because you sort of specialize as being a self prescribed, recovering awkward person.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm a recovering awkward person.

[Cody Sanchez]

And you talk a lot about how you can be awkward and introverted in business. And it can be okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's totally okay.

[Cody Sanchez]

So I know this is a huge topic that you speak a lot about at science of people, but if you had to leave somebody with a little sprinkling, as somebody in business who really wants to be successful but is introverted, what typical advice do you give?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so first things first, is you have to find your recipe for charisma. I think that I used to believe as an awkward person, this is what unlocked my awkwardness, is there was only one type of charisma that to be liked to be successful in business. Cause I've been running my business for 15 years, right? Like, I put my first video on YouTube in 2007, and I thought to be successful on YouTube, I'm so old. I know.

[Cody Sanchez]

Me doing my talk between the two of us. I know.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So in 2007, I thought the only way to be popular on YouTube was to be a bubbly extrovert. I literally thought that was the only type of charisma. But actually there are different flavors of charisma. You can absolutely be the quiet, powerful introvert. You can be the empathetic healer. You can be the wise question asker. And I think once I was so awkward because I was faking being an extrovert. I am not an extrovert. So the key is stop pretending to be an extrovert. You do not have to be an extrovert to be successful in business, but you do have to find your flavor. So the question is, what is your social strength? Is it storytelling? Is it being funny and humble? Right. Like, I think Taylor Swift has a great, a great social strength of being grateful in a stadium full of 50,000 people. That is hard. Like Usher, when he walks out, he's like, wha, wha. I deserve you being here. Right? Like, that's his vibe and that totally works for Usher, but that does not work for Taylor Swift. And if she tried to do that, people wouldn't like it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Comment if you remember who Usher is, if you're old like us, because I feel like you're also dating us now. You're like, the thing is, back when Bach was playing in Mozart.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh no, Mozart, my friend. Mozart.

[Cody Sanchez]

But you're right. So she can have a totally different vibe than a rapper.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. And so I think, like, find your vibe. Like, social skills come small. Like, it's not just like presenting, it's storytelling, it's using memes, it's being funny, it's sharing a case study. It's one to one. Like, for example, as a leader, I know one to one, I do really well. I prioritize those meetings because I just do better in them than the big all hands kind of meetings.

[Cody Sanchez]

But you're such a good presenter.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's surprising on a big stage for sure. But on our team of 10, you know what I mean? I'm like, are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay? Is everyone okay? It's actually very hard. So we have one big call week, that's it. Otherwise it's one on ones with me. So, like, understand what your strength is. Like what down to the specific skill, is it presenting art keynotes, being funny, Right? So understand your specific strength and don't be afraid to be vulnerable. Like, I think a little story is I was at a really, an invite only muckety muck event here in Austin with a lot of VIPs, a lot of really important people who live in Austin. Like the most important people in Austin. Like, they were there, right? It was in this huge mansion. And so I get invited and I'm like, why was I invited? I do not deserve to be here. And like, I walk in like awkward penguin, you know, and they go, they put us all in a circle. There was 30 of us, 25 of us. They put us all in a circle and they go one by one, we're gonna introduce ourselves and I'm not joking. Okay? Someone's like, well, I founded insert huge company that you definitely know. And I'm like, billionaire, and I own the world. The next person was like, I cured cancer, and I'm curing future cancers that don't exist, and I am an amazing doctor. And it was, like, insane, okay? Going around the circle, and I'm just like. Like, it's getting to me. I'm like, I'm a YouTuber. Write books about people. Like, you know what I mean? So it gets to me, and I'm like, I'm a recovering awkward person. And the whole circle was like. And starts to laugh. Like, everyone's like, oh, me too. Me too. Me too. And I was like. And I help awkward smart people connect. If you're awkward and you don't have anyone to talk to later, just come find me. I have a YouTube channel and a couple books. I will tell you every single. Almost every single person after me referenced me. They were like, I'm awkward. Like, her laugh again. Cute laughter. And after the circle broke up, everyone in the circle came to talk to me, including, like, the important muckity mucks over here, right? Because they were also very awkward. And so it just. It made me realize, like, don't pretend, don't fake it. Don't show off. Let people impress you. Stop trying to impress them and be a little vulnerable. It's okay to say that you wished you were home watching Netflix. Like, it's okay to say, you know what? I have a. At night, I do my passion project, and during the day I drive Uber, right? Like, stop flexing. Like, I think it's okay to be vulnerable and be like, my passion. I'm doing this, and we're getting to the next level, but we're having some trouble with staffing, if you know anyone. Like, that's how we actually impress people.

[Cody Sanchez]

You know what's interesting, though, is you do it in a way where you don't give up your competence. And so I think that's the really hard part. Like, I know when I was first getting on the Internet, after being in finance for a long time, and I didn't really want to explain that. I. I ran a media company, and I had this holding company. I would say, like, I make TikToks.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I was friends with you. And you used to say that I'd be like, girl.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. And I think at that point, it was because I didn't want to explain more.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And it was like an out.

[Cody Sanchez]

It was a little bit of an out. But it's not a great out because when you're in rooms with those important people, you don't want them to go, oh, well, she's got an only fans. I bet they did. They're like, oh, that bitch. Slider and Bill later.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. Gonna look you up. How do you spell your name? CO D I E, capital D. Anyway, so.

[Cody Sanchez]

I think the point is you really have to think about how can you be vulnerable without losing your competence. Do you have opinions or advice on how to do that? Because yours is perfect. You're like, I am recovering, AKA I'm not all the way awkward. Lots of people who are smart consider themselves awkward. I do X thing, which shows competence, followed by two really impressive things. Author and I have a big media company. But, like, it's perfectly crafted.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You would not be watching this if you don't have a good business idea. Yeah, right. And so I think, like, being vulnerable is being true and sharing your good idea. I also think if you can add a credibility marker, it helps. Like, for example, I noticed that when I added Wall Street Journal's bestselling book, it immediately upped my perceived credibility because anyone can have a best selling book on Amazon in the category of awkward people. No. So that was like, okay, so is there a way in your. For example, if I say I'm a recovering awkward person, I have a TED Talk about being awkward. That's a credibility marker that I can very quickly say, or I have bestselling books through Penguin Random House. Right. Like, so in the beginning of my career, I was saying TED Talk. I was saying Penguin Random House. I was saying, like, the big credibility markers. Like, I just got asked to teach a Harvard class. You can bet I'll be adding that into my bio. So the more that you can add them, sprinkle them in. Credibility markers are good.

[Cody Sanchez]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And it can be the counterbalance to your warmth.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. It's brilliant. Yeah. I also think you can find one that's not so serious if you're not perfectly skilled, like Vanessa is. You could say, like, I am a ravenous pickleball player.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's it. Totally. Yes.

[Cody Sanchez]

Like, why could that work? Because pickleball, Nobody looks cool playing pickleball.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right.

[Cody Sanchez]

And if you add, no, no, no, nobody looks cool. No, it's a dad. The Internet hates me for this. But. And then saying a word. They love you by saying a word. Like, I am a top tier pickleballer. I am a ravenous pickleballer.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Totally.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's an immediate chuckle.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. Or like, even, like, by Night. I do.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You know, or like my day job is this, but like my passion project is this. Like, we like words like that. Passion project. Ravenous. Amateur. Like, you can say those things like recovering in its own way. Or like, I also love. I teach my students to do like blank. Turned. Blank. So I have a lot of like pivoters. I have a lot of students who are like, I was a lawyer and now I want to be a nonprofit runner or whatever. Non profit runner, owner of a nonprofit. Like, I don't even know. Yeah, I have a lot of students who like have pivoted and they're like, how do I say? Like, I was legit a lawyer and I have chosen this. I'm like turned. So like, I'm a lawyer turned nonprofit. I'm a student. But my passion project is that I'm coding my own software. Blank. So that is a narrative, by the way. Like, I think people are afraid to in an elevator pitch. Or like, I teach my students. It's called a logline. Like a logline is like a one sentence phrase that gets people hooked. And every movie in Hollywood comes logline. And so you should have a logline. It should be a one sentence hook to what you do. And it should be a story and you can do it in one sentence. Like me saying I'm a recovering awkward person turned YouTuber. That's a story. That's an interesting. You're like, what? Yeah, I want to hear. So it's like, I'm a scuba dive instructor turned family law lawyer. Like, we like a story like that. And so I think that if you can do not. I'm a blah.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, it's the hero's journey.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Totally. And you can do that in one sentence.

[Cody Sanchez]

You know, former nerd turned Spiderman.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

There you go. Exactly.

[Cody Sanchez]

I think on my book they put in reformed Wall street investor turned small business owner.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

By the way, her book is so good.

[Cody Sanchez]

Well, you know why?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Because I did get a copy and I edited the shit out of it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Had the best feedback also so good. Guys, you know what's really fun is when you, when you know your friends, finding ones who their love language is some portion of what you need to like you. I remember you said explicitly to me, I want to be the best editing help of anybody of all of our friend group.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm highly competitive and I wanted to be. I wanted to give the best advice. I'm highly competitive and like, it was fun. It was fun for me to do it and I said, am I the best?

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, you were the best.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Fernando, we have a friend.

[Cody Sanchez]

We have one friend.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

One friend who competed with me on the editing. But it is so good. Like, if you have not ordered it yet, it is so, so good. The edits I had were small in comparison to the book.

[Cody Sanchez]

No, they were really important. You know, the edits. I think a couple of the things that you taught me the most about communication in general is one, that story is more memorable than stat. And so, like, make sure if you're gonna tell some statistics, wrap it in a story so people can remember. And then you also mentioned a lot about how this is about the reader. So, you know, we had a lot of diagrams and data and stuff in there.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Beautiful diagrams. Beautiful, right?

[Cody Sanchez]

And you're like, get to the point and why do they care?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

And so we did that really tight up front because I wanted to make sure that people lasted through that first chapter to get into the meet. And that was really helpful.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I also think, like, this is for anyone, whether you're writing a book or starting a business is like, you want to compliment the person who is reading it. You want to compliment the person who is buying it. You want to compliment the person who visited, who deigned to visit your page. You want to compliment the person who opened your email. Like, I've been writing an email newsletter for literally 14 years. Like, it took me one year to get my.

[Cody Sanchez]

And it's huge.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's Moonlighter is huge. I personally write every single word because I know that I should be letting them impress me. I should be over delivering. I should be aggressively helpful. I think it's the same thing as, like, how can you compliment your person? How can you ask the right questions or set them up for success? That is the way we spread goodness.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's so good. Okay, I want to close out with something a little bit different that I don't think you talk about very much, which is you are one of the categorically happiest business people I know, and you have the best balance in your business while running a business with quite a lot of zeros. And so I know you're private about a lot of this, but what do you think the key has been to moving from somebody who did 452 videos, all of the different businesses, every speaking spot, to two podcasts this year that you've done taken an entire summer off?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Really?

[Cody Sanchez]

A sabbatical?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, I take summer sabbaticals.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. You've taken now multiple. And you have two wonderful kids and a beautiful husband. Like, what's what's your. What's your secret?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's an annoyance to.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

How often do I say that to you?

[Cody Sanchez]

A lot.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

A lot.

[Cody Sanchez]

Every other day.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I don't have a podcast. I can do a podcast. Should I do a podcast? No, because I should go on everyone else's. That is better. I have a newsletter and I put everything into that because I should be doing that, because that is a draw line of communication with my people. TikTok don't care. I'm on there because my team has forced me. But, like, I shouldn't do it. I shouldn't be making reels.

[Cody Sanchez]

And you don't post it yourself. No, that's all done. Third party now.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It doesn't convert. And so I think, like, it's very important for a business owner to focus relentlessly on what is actually converting to your business. And I mean, dollars.

[Cody Sanchez]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, I have a tight team. Like, we want to keep overhead as low as possible. Like, if it is not converting, if a job role is not converting, it is not a role. And so it's all the things you could do, making a big list. Then every year we make a big list of all the things we could do. And then we play stop, start, continue. And this is my favorite game to play, and we do it all the time. It's like, okay, what should we stop doing? Is this actually converting this role, this task, this person down to. I realized that checking my inbox was not converting into actual work, and so I figured out how to outsource it to my assistant, who is amazing. Shout out Carolyn. So that she can actually go through my inbox and do everything that needs to be done with a very precise system. So that I'm spending now 10 minutes every other day on email as opposed to three hours a day. That was really painful. It took six months to get rid of my inbox, but it was not converting. So that went on the stop list. Right. What is actually converting? That's continue. That's the shortest list. Like, what you're actually doing and then stop is if it's not converting or it's draining your soul. It has to stop because it takes a while to undo things.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, it's so true. Totally selfish question for me. You get a lot of asks. Vanessa, come on the show. Come speak here. Come do that here. How do you respond to things and teach your team to respond to things so that the person who gets your nose feels like it's lovely, thinks so highly of you. Everybody always Loves you. What's the secret?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm like, yes, they do. No. Radical transparency and vulnerability. So it sounds like this. Thank you so much for this podcast offer. You know, Vanessa is on a podcast sabbatical. Because she hates them. I did you. I did, Mel. Because I like you both, and this is fun. Otherwise, I don't like it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, seriously. Or like, my favorite one is, like, if it's personal. Like, if someone texts me and they're like, can you speak at my conference? I want to speak at your conference. That was the easy one. Like, I don't want to speak at someone. And I say, you know what? I would love to. I'm so honored. She's out of me. But my plate is as full as I like right now. Yeah, my plate is as full as I like right now. I also love the word sabbatical. Like, I am on a podcast sabbatical. I'm not doing new podcasts. When I'm in summer sabbatical. I am on summer sabbatical. I maybe. Maybe work five hours a week in summers because I want to spend time with my kids. And so, like, it's very. It's what people understand. It's not personal to you. I am literally on a summer sabbatical. I'm not doing calls. I'm doing video calls. I'm not doing pitches. I'm not email. I schedule all my content out. I'm off. I'm out. And that makes people not feel like it's personal to them. So radical transparency and blaming a system. Blaming a system works so well. Sabbatical. Vanessa's not doing any speaking events in the fall. Sorry. Oh, you know, Vanessa's recovering from her book tour. She'll pick back up in December. That's a system. People cannot fight against the system. But that means you gotta have system.

[Cody Sanchez]

Well, that's a really good point. So that's basically the structure is if you want to respond to things but have the other person almost. Thank you for the response. It's. First, profusely thank them. Gratitude, appreciation. Because that's honest.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Cody Sanchez]

Second is, have a system in place where you say, because of X system, why action will or will not work.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes, because of X system. It will not work. And it's nothing personal to you, but it's. You can't find it. Because system. Or a very real and vulnerable thing that if I say I hate people, you don't want me to come. Like, for example, Nick Ray. Love, love Nick Ray. He invites me to some things and I go And I love it. But some things I'm like, I don't like people same. And I literally write back and I'm like, I don't like people enough to go to that I'm awkward. He goes, I know, right? And like, that is a very real and vulnerable share. Or like, sometimes people invite me to things and I'm like, it's after 9pm I don't do after 9pm That's a personal system. It's like, oh, she doesn't do after 9:00pm and you know what? You wouldn't want me after 9:00pm Oh, a thousand percent.

[Cody Sanchez]

You would not want me same.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And so I think that if it's a vulnerable share that, like, people wouldn't want that.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Then it's easy to say no.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, vulnerable share and maybe even a little humor.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I've tried to be funny, you know, I try to be funny.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. Well, it makes a huge difference if you're like, you know. And I think trying to teach your team, too. It's one thing we're working on in my team right now is like teaching your team how to say no super graciously, with boundaries and even a little bit of sense of humor. And I think that thing that you talked about, which is like a shadow influence, blame. So it's like, I can't do this because. System. I can't do this because promises to the business. I can't do this because whatever, then you're never the blame. They're not the blame. This other third party is the blame.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. And one more thing I'll add. There is. We found a lot of success with, like, you know what? Vanessa's on podcast sabbatical. We're going to add your podcast to a list so that if and when she decides to pick it back up or she has a book launch coming up, we can reach out to you. And by the way, that happens when I have a launch. I'm like, you know what? Time for some podcasts. And then I like it because I actually have things to talk about. Right. I have new research. I have new things. So adding a list really helps. Even I'll have people who are like, I'm an Austin for the week. Do you want to hang out? And I'm like, no.

[Cody Sanchez]

Because, like, it's.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's a hard week. And so I'll be like, I'm so sorry. I'm in a low people season right now. But next time you come, please reach out. Like, it's the next time.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So you can, like, create A list. And, like, you have to be genuine about it. But, like, I think that that also really helps people feel like it's not just.

[Cody Sanchez]

No, love it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So if you have speaking event requests or podcasts, you can say, let me add you to a list when and if Cody can do it or I can do it. I would love to. But right now, I am focusing 100% on the book launch or 100% on my people or, like, I've also had friends who are like, you know, this literally happened to me last week. I have a little girls dinner that I do, and I picked an expensive restaurant, and that was shame on me. I should have done that. And my friend said, I'm so sorry, I can't afford to eat out right now. It's been hard for the business. I was like, I am so sorry. Like, how did I do that? And so, like, she was super honest with me and was really transparent, and I was like, oh, my gosh, let's go to, like, let's go somewhere super easy. Let's do a picnic. And, like, then we had a really great, deep discussion. So, like, even that, like, being like, hey, I'm like, I'm pinching pennies for the business. I can't go to Costa Rica right now with you.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, don't make an excuse. Like, say the truth.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yep. That's so beautiful. Okay. It's tough out there in the world right now. We're getting communicated negatively everywhere.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Not my Instagram. We're very positive.

[Cody Sanchez]

You are very positive on your Instagram and YouTube. But I think the newsletter, like, if you're gonna sign up for one thing, it should be like, science of people, the newsletter.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm very proud of my artisanal, organic, handcrafted newsletter.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's really good.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's how it feels.

[Cody Sanchez]

And it's. So you should definitely go to science of people. But what would you want to leave people with? To leave them on that little bit of a high note in a world that's a little negative?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Can I share a story?

[Cody Sanchez]

I would love a story. Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So this fundamentally changed how I interact, and it was about being likable. And one of the fears I have about awkwardness is that I'm deeply unlikable. Like, that is something that I really fight with. And so I found this study, and what these researchers did is they wanted to figure out what makes someone likable. So he followed thousands of high school students across a variety of high schools, and he categorized them based on popularity. And then he looked at every Variable he could think of athleticism, gpa, humor, attractiveness. Like, everything he could think of. And there was one predictor. Across all the grades in all the high schools. Yes, they were popular because they were athletic or smart, but there was one that all the popular kids across all the schools had. They have the longest list of people that they liked, meaning that if you want to be likable, all you have to do is go around aggressively liking people.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's wild.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's so good. And it totally reframed for me. Like, all I need to do is stop worrying about being likable or being impressive or being funny or being whatever. Actually, what I have to do is find ways to aggregate aggressively like the people that I'm with. Asking better questions, searching for good, assuming good, expecting good. And so what I would leave you with is, if you want to be more likable, you need to be hunting for good in others, in every conversation, in every email and every discussion. It's like, how can I like this person more? That is such a better way to be internally, but it's also, like, a beautiful way to be externally.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's so pretty. May I ask you sort of a personal question?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Of course.

[Cody Sanchez]

Why? Why were you worried about being profoundly dislikable? Where do you think that comes from?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I don't know. I think. I think I'm different. You know, I think I'm a little different. Like, even you will say to me, like, vanessa, like, you dress so weird. Like, I know you do.

[Cody Sanchez]

And I do have two of the same dresses in 42 colors.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's it. That's it. It's my Steve Jobs moment. Okay? Like, you know, I just am a little weird. Like, I do weird things. I have weird hobbies. I don't dress like other people. I never did. You know, I was, like, always the girl in school who, like, I had, like, the bowl cut and, like, the plaid vest and all the other girls were wearing. Juicy. Aging myself. You know what I mean? Like, I was listening to, like, Simon and Garfunkel while the girls were listening to, like, Backstreet, you know, Like, I just. Like, now you're cool. Yeah, back then. And so I think, like, I'm just a little odd. Like, I even do things differently than our friends do, you know? And so I think, like, that's why is because for a long time, like, that was a bad thing, and now I have people who love me for it. Like, when I text you, you're like, what are you doing? And I know that you love Me. Even though I'm like, let's go do weird activity. Insert weird activity.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's interesting. So at one point that made you really scared and nervous and it literally.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Turned people off because I was like, not with the right people. When you're young, it's hard, you know?

[Cody Sanchez]

Like 14 year old girl. That was a nightmare.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So now if I have a friend that's like, you do what for fun? I'm like, oh, we're not. Okay. Like, we're not gonna be friends. It's cool. Whereas, like in a group of friends where they're like, well, good for you for doing that. I'm like, you know.

[Cody Sanchez]

You know what the other thing is too, is now you doing that, I think has allowed our group of girlfriends to all bring weird things that we do.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Everyone's been weirder.

[Cody Sanchez]

Would have done that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No, for sure.

[Cody Sanchez]

Now you're actually kind of normal. You're a little basic now.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

People have brought out. It brings out the weirdness in people. Totally.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. Which is a beautiful thing to think about. Like, if that thing inside of you is so weird, different, nobody's on board with it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

What sort of magic do you shake out if you share it? Because I bet there's people that are even weirder than you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. I'm waiting for you to be weirder.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, I know. All I do is business.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I know.

[Cody Sanchez]

Business, business, business. I need some hobbies. I'm in the market for a hobby.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, we gotta get some hobbies for you. But like, not like shooting.

[Cody Sanchez]

I know. You know what I mean?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, it's so hardcore. Like something like pottery.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, I know. You always do the worst hobbies. Like you're like, make a. What was the last wreath one you wanted me to do?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, a succulent wreath.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, that. That Harry Potter thing we went to for four hours.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That was fun. And I brought chocolate frost.

[Cody Sanchez]

You did not think it was fun.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You're a Slytherin.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, I must be.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Although I, you know. You are.

[Cody Sanchez]

I score as Gryffindor. No, I think you're a secret Slytherin.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No, I'm not. I'm a Ravenclaw.

[Cody Sanchez]

Anybody who makes this. I'm a Ravenclaw.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm a Ravenclaw.

[Cody Sanchez]

Was that one of those Flash.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Did I get it?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And we did go to Harry Potter Symphony Orchestra.

[Cody Sanchez]

God, we were.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And I did make us dress up.

[Cody Sanchez]

Although you wouldn't do it on the Internet right now. I.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You didn't dress up.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yes, I did. I don't remember what I wore.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You Wore one. You wore, like, a sock. And I was like, okay, it's under a boot. I was like, in a cape. Like, I had, like, spell earrings on.

[Cody Sanchez]

You did have spell earrings.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Brought everyone gifts.

[Cody Sanchez]

But it's kind of endearing because how many scientists are like, a Harry Potter Harry Potter fan?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I know.

[Cody Sanchez]

Huge Harry Potter fan. I just don't project. Keep it deep inside.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's what I'm saying. We gotta be weirder.

[Cody Sanchez]

Okay, fine. I'll bring it on the Internet. Tell me if anybody else on here.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Is Harry Potter fans and what your house is.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, yeah. And what your house is.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And that you think you know that Cody's living.

[Cody Sanchez]

Okay, you can guess. What do you guys think I am? Am I Slytherin? Am I Gryffindor? I think we've actually found the real culprit here. And that's how we'll leave you on this podcast today. Thanks for coming, Bee. That's quite a close. I can't believe I shared all of that on the Internet. I guess you guys could tell me in the comments which Harry Potter house you think I am. I have a clear house. So I hope you guys get this right. I think Vanessa was trying to dissuade you from what is the obvious choice. So maybe you can tell me what Harry Potter house you guys are in the comments and you can tell me which one you think I am. The second thing I was thinking about with the clothes here is when it comes to communication, there's some correlation between the better you speak, the more money is in your bank account. And I wish I had understood this earlier. It's actually not my biggest strong suit. I'm pretty good at one to many, AKA content. Vanessa talks about how she's really good one to one. And I think one of the keys in success in your bank account is how good are you, like 1 to 5, 10, 15, 20? And your small teams. And so if you want to learn more about how to communicate well to small teams, let me know in the comments too, because I think we should put together a guide for how do we run meetings so that they don't suck and people actually want to attend to them. How do you communicate with your team, even when things are scary, and get them to do the things that you want them to do? Vanessa hit on a bunch of it today. I think we should go deeper. So hit me in the comments if you think so too. And in the meantime, I guess I'll end with this. You know, Maya Angelou has the famous saying that people won't remember the things that you said, but they will remember the way you made them feel. And if you remember nothing else, I think this is an opportunity for you to look yourself in the mirror and say, am I making people feel a certain way that they will remember and want to positively associate their next interaction with me? Maybe ask yourself that question. I'm going to do the same. All right, see you guys next time.