FBI Hostage Negotiator: The Art Of Negotiating To Get Everything You Want | Chris Voss

Summary

BigDeal Podcast Summary: Episode with Chris Voss

Episode Title: FBI Hostage Negotiator: The Art Of Negotiating To Get Everything You Want | Chris Voss
Release Date: January 2, 2025
Host: Codie Sanchez
Guest: Chris Voss, Former FBI Lead Hostage Negotiator

---

1. Universal Emotions and Cultural Dynamics

Chris Voss delves into the foundational concept that all humans are born with a set of core emotions, arguing that these emotions are universal across cultures despite outward differences. He challenges the notion that cultural nuances significantly alter emotional responses, positing instead that understanding these universal emotions can bridge cultural divides.

"I don't see anybody contesting that we're born with five core emotions. It's original equipment." ([05:00])

Voss emphasizes that foundational emotions—such as anger, sadness, disgust, happiness, and joy—are innate and not significantly altered by cultural upbringing. This universality, he suggests, provides a common ground for effective communication and negotiation across diverse backgrounds.

2. The Concept of Tactical Empathy

Tactical Empathy is introduced as a strategic form of empathetic engagement, distinct from mere sympathy or compassion. Voss explains that tactical empathy involves actively observing and understanding the emotions of others to influence their behavior positively.

"Empathy is just observing the other person's emotions and where it's, you getting out of the way." ([06:51])

By employing tactical empathy, negotiators can anticipate and navigate emotional responses, creating an environment where both parties feel understood without necessarily agreeing. This approach is applicable not only in high-stakes negotiations but also in everyday interpersonal interactions.

3. Empathy in Negotiations with Adversaries

Voss shares his experiences negotiating with individuals deemed as "bad guys," such as members of terrorist organizations. He underscores that empathy does not equate to agreement but serves as a tool to influence and de-escalate conflict.

"Yes, you can and yes, you should. And you don't equate understanding with agreement." ([09:49])

He recounts training sessions with international counterterrorism teams, highlighting how empathy can catch adversaries off guard, making them more receptive to negotiation tactics. This strategy hinges on understanding the adversary's perspective to create openings for dialogue and resolution.

4. Emotional Intelligence and Its Impact

The discussion shifts to Emotional Intelligence (EI), where both hosts agree on its critical role in personal and professional success. Voss asserts that higher EI is correlated with significantly increased earnings and better negotiation outcomes.

"Emotional intelligence is an unlimited skill and a perishable skill. So if you haven't built it, you haven't built it." ([17:35])

They explore practical ways to cultivate EI, such as practicing "cold reads" to assess others' emotions and being intentional about active listening. Voss emphasizes that EI is not static; it requires continuous effort to maintain and improve.

5. Gender Differences in Negotiation

Voss addresses observed differences in negotiation styles between men and women, attributing these to societal conditioning rather than inherent traits. He notes that women are often nurtured to prioritize relationships and soft skills, which can be advantageous when blended with assertiveness.

"Women as generally to be nurtured, not to be combative, they have been nurtured into assertion. But then if they can blend assertion with the soft skills, then suddenly they're superstars." ([55:40])

This combination allows women to excel in negotiation without compromising their femininity, highlighting the evolving landscape where diverse negotiation styles are increasingly valued and recognized.

6. Understanding and Addressing Psychopathy

The conversation delves into the origins and potential reversibility of psychopathic behavior. Voss posits that psychopathy is largely a product of environmental factors, such as inconsistent parenting and lack of established rules during formative years.

"I agree. Yeah, I'm there, I'm on that hypothesis. Yeah." ([45:12])

He discusses the complexity of reversing psychopathic traits, acknowledging that while some cases may improve with interventions like new neuroscientific treatments, others remain resistant to change. Voss shares an anecdote about an individual who transformed positively, illustrating the potential for change under certain circumstances.

7. The Role of Tone in Effective Communication

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the importance of tone of voice in communication. Voss explains that tone can convey emotions and intentions more powerfully than words themselves, influencing how messages are received and interpreted.

"Tone is like putting spin on a ball. It's essential for it to hit its target." ([50:16])

He highlights that specific tones, such as a calming voice used in hostage negotiations or hypnotherapy, can trigger neurochemical responses in listeners, making messages more persuasive and effective.

8. Techniques to Engage in Meaningful Conversations

Voss provides actionable strategies to transform superficial small talk into meaningful dialogue. He advocates for approaching conversations with genuine curiosity, enabling deeper connections and understanding.

"What do you love about the PTA?" ([66:50])

By asking open-ended questions that tap into the other person's passions or experiences, negotiators can shift the conversation from mundane topics to more engaging and substantive discussions, fostering trust and rapport.

9. Overcoming Boredom in Conversations

Addressing situations where conversations may become uninteresting, Voss recommends reigniting curiosity to maintain engagement. He suggests redirecting the dialogue towards topics that reveal deeper insights about the individual.

"I'll probably say, what do you love about the PTA? Now that's probably going to trigger an instantaneous state change in them and change the conversation." ([66:50])

This technique not only alleviates boredom but also uncovers valuable information that can be leveraged in negotiations or personal interactions.

10. Closing Insights and Takeaways

In the concluding segments, Voss reiterates the significance of continuous learning and practicing negotiation and communication skills. He encourages listeners to immerse themselves in environments that promote accelerated learning, such as his upcoming Negotiation Mastery Summit.

"You make a quantum leap forward when you immerse yourself." ([69:09])

Voss emphasizes that mastering these skills can lead to substantial long-term benefits, both financially and personally, underscoring the podcast's core message of empowering listeners to transform their lives through effective negotiation and communication.

---

Notable Quotes:

• "Empathy is just observing the other person's emotions and where it's you getting out of the way." — Chris Voss ([06:51])

• "I'm long term. And when you start looking around for it, the truth is the best long term strategy." — Chris Voss ([31:49])

• "Perception of fairness is a fundamental human instinct, which manipulators exploit regularly." — Chris Voss ([26:36])

• "Emotional intelligence is an unlimited skill and a perishable skill. So if you haven't built it, you haven't built it." — Chris Voss ([17:35])

This episode of BigDeal offers profound insights into the art of negotiation, emphasizing the importance of empathy, emotional intelligence, and effective communication. Chris Voss's experiences and strategies provide listeners with actionable tactics to enhance both their professional and personal interactions.

Transcript

[A]

Chris Voss is one of the FBI's former lead hostage negotiators. He has negotiated with terrorists like isis. He has stopped live hostage situations. He has also negotiated across some of the biggest boardrooms and billion dollar companies all around the world. If you haven't read his book, Never Split the Difference, you should absolutely read his book. It's one of my favorite books when it comes to negotiating. And every time I speak to Chris, my mind gets blown wide open with new ways to make more money and get people to do the things that I want them to do. This podcast has all of that. He has stories in here I've actually never heard him share before anywhere. And he has things that you can take today to make you more and also to make you maybe even a better human in how you communicate with those you love and those you don't like very much. Without further ado, my friend, Chris Voss, What I wanted to talk about to you today is, like, we've been talking a lot lately, and you've been everywhere. Prague, Helsinki, you know, all across the world. And I was wondering, what are you talking about now? Like, what are you obsessing on?

[B]

Well, more ways to help people understand why this works. And then a talk I just gave in Riyadh, which, by the way, Saudi these days is fascinating. Like, fascinating. I think they told me 60% of the country is 35 and under. Like, you know, youngsters that want to get at it that care less about the past and more about the future, which is what that age group's about. We don't care how you guys did in the past. We want to see what's the best way to do it going forward. So what? I talk to them a lot, particularly in the Middle East. Like, why are we all the same and yet simultaneously all different? Which was, at one point in time, I thought it was an academic distinction that. That just made academics happy to talk about the difference between feelings and emotions. The first time somebody brought that up, I thought, you know, I don't care what the difference is. I'm a layman. I make stuff work. And we're gonna use the Black Swan skills. Whether or not there's a distinction between feelings and emotions, I don't care. And so a friend of mine, Eric Barker, wrote a book called Barking up the Wrong Tree and a blog by the same name, and he's written that different cultures have terms for feelings that other cultures don't have. Like, in this island, South Pacific, they don't even have a term for this feeling or emotion. So how do you explain that? And then the consistent multiculture experts who say, yeah, you gotta understand Arabs, you gotta understand Germans, the difference between Germans, Italians, Arabs, all this. And my response to that is like, look, dude, you're. You're just keeping yourself employed over nonsense. So what's the answer? Or the hypothesis, which I haven't seen it, how you prove it. But I'm not seeing anybody disagree that you're born with five basic emotions. It's original equipment. You come to planet Earth with five core emotions, and I think they're anger, sadness, disgust, happiness, and I can't remember what the other one or two are. And the only argument I'm seeing is whether there's five or there's seven, and is it happiness or joy? But I'm not seeing anybody contend with that. So part one, that's why we're all the same. Because you're human, period. You're born with these emotions. Now, me being an observer of navigating them, my first observation is four out of the five are negative, only one is positive. And a black swan approach is let's deactivate the negatives and then the positives will take off on their own, which is the case. That's why we. We got the skill of the accusations audit, listing the negatives. And then why, if you're not angry yet, I might say to you, this is going to make you angry. And it doesn't plant anger, it inoculates you from it. So we got a strategic advantage as soon as you understand this. But then as you go through life, your emotions interact with your experience, creating feelings, which then begins to explain. There's a detachment disorder syndrome of people that aren't held enough in the first year of their life. Most commonly shows up with orphans because they're in an orphanage. Prior to probably this century, they didn't know they needed to hold them. They didn't understand detachment syndrome. And a lot of people that were adopted in the past, they get to their mid teens, their parents adopted them age two, three maybe, showed them nothing but love. But in the mid teens, they're lying. They have an attachment detachment syndrome. Like, where did this come from? First year of life?

[A]

I heard that too, with preemie babies. Like, they originally said, you can't touch the preemie babies because bacteria and they have compromised immune system. And then they tried to study. I think it was here in New York, where they allowed for touch, like for an hour a day, just holding them. And the preemie babies grew faster and survived more Just from human touch.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Which is wild.

[B]

Yes, yes. So, but that's you interacting with the world. The explanation for sociopaths has the bureau's always try to figure that out when we're, you know, how does one become a serial killer? What happened? And one of the hypothesis is when they were 5, 6, 7 years old, they did something, made a mistake, parents punished the hell out of them. Three months later, they made the same mistake, parents didn't do anything. What's that teach your child? There are no rules. So, but then that's again you interacting with the world. So yes, we're all the same and we're all different, but if I understand the fundamental rules of how to navigate emotions, no matter where you grew up, no matter what, your ethnicity, your culture, your diet, your religion, I know that you've got these five core emotions. And so empathy, tactical empathy, works with Arabs, works with Persians, works with Latinos, because you're a human being. So in pointing that out these days, and when I'm talking about it makes it easier when I'm in Riyadh and it's an international audience and they go like, well, you're an American, it's an American book, this is an American methodology. And I'm like, no, it's not as a matter of fact that you human. And so that's why I'm talking to people about this a lot.

[A]

What exactly is tactical empathy and why does it matter?

[B]

It's effectively proactive listening based on patterns of behavior that are predicted by things like your five core emotions and neuroscience. Now originally, empathy was originally designed to not be sympathy. It's been contorted, convoluted into usage. These days people say if you have empathy, that means you sympathize, you have compassion. Empathy is just observing the other person's emotions and where it's you getting out of the way. Empathy from an Israeli to a Palestinian is for the Israeli to say, you hate us because you think we're a colonizing power that's bent on your extermination. That's not agreement, that's observing the other side's point of view. Palestinian to an Israeli, the world persecuted you. You feel that this is your homeland, which is taken away from you 2,000 years ago. Ultimately there was a global effort to exterminate you, perpetrated by the Nazis in the 1930s. Most of the world stood back and watched. And then finally you had, after all these years, you finally have a homeland, and this is the only place you feel safe. There was no Agreement from either side on that, that's empathy. That's stating the other side's perspective. And that's the true application of empathy. We call it tactical empathy originally because it's a little why you tell a SEAL guy, no, we're not teaching you yoga breathing, we're teaching you tactical breathing.

[A]

That's so good.

[B]

And then the guy goes like, oh, okay, I'll do tactical breathing. I'm not doing yoga, but I'll do tactical breathing.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So we're trying, you know, we're trying to make the term more usable.

[A]

I like that. You know, it's interesting because I was actually talking to Chris, my husband, about this the other day that I remember when I was a journalist and at the time I was talking to cartel members and these were young cartel members, you know, so, you know, they were really human. You know, they were like young guys at a club. You could find them often by their tattoos and some of the outfits that they would wear in northern Mexico. And these are people that have done categorically awful things, right? Rape, murder, violence, law breaking. And I remember at the time talking to them and saying to a girlfriend afterwards, because we were writing a story, like, you know, it's fascinating because I can understand why they are the way that they are based on the conversations that I have with them. And her response was, why the fuck would you talk to somebody like that? You know, that's like talking to a white supremacist. Like, why would you even want to understand where they came from? And I thought that was really interesting. Like, how do you talk to somebody that you physically, like, viscerally disagree with? And should you?

[B]

Yeah, yes, yes, you can and yes, you should. And you don't equate understanding with agreement. And most people have trouble drawing that distinction. And that was actually the, you know, as an FBI hostage negotiator, that's the first time they had teachers. Because how the hell am I going to agree with a guy on the other side? You know, I'm Al Qaeda on the other side, ISIS on the other side. How am I going to agree with him? I'm not. However, on behalf of the American people, you guys are putting me in there to have an influence on his behavior. And so if I'm going to get in my way, then you should fire me. And I actually learned that previous to that on the hotline. Suicide hotline, you know, you don't believe in suicide at all? I don't for religious reasons and spiritual reasons. So then what are you going to do. Get on the phone with somebody suicidal and say, and be judgmental, tell them they're doing the wrong thing. It's not going to help. It doesn't help anybody. It's a waste of time. So when you can decouple those, then actually you give yourself the ability to influence people in a way nobody else can. I was kicking this around just the other night with Derek Gaunt, head of my training. We teach curiosity as the ultimate attribute for you to make you smart and more resilient or even antifragile as Nassim Nicholas Taleb would say. So curiosity could be a very self centered thing to do. Simultaneously I can open anybody up like anybody with my curiosity because curiosity is impossible to resist. And so you can talk to a member of the cartel and they will not be able to resist your curiosity because you're not judging. You're not. Since, since you're not agreeing, then you've got no problem internally you're not violating any of your core values to talk to them because you're not agreeing with them. But they will open up to you in ways they will not open up to anybody else, which gives you a superpower.

[A]

In his book, Chris Voss tells us never split the difference. So why settle for less when you can aim to get the best possible outcome? The same thing applies to your finances. That's why I like Domain Money to help you unlock your full financial potential. Domain Money doesn't do a one size fits all advice. They build highly personalized financial plans designed to help you get the most out of your money. Whether it's building generational wealth, saving for a big goal, or optimizing for your taxes. With a flat fee model and expert planners, they make sure every dollar works as hard as you do. And you know their advice is designed with your best interests in mind. Their process is simple. Tell them about what matters the most to you. Upload your financial documents and get a clear, actionable financial plan that's as unique as you are. Stop winging it with your money. Book a free 30 minute strategy session with Domain Money and take the first step toward a better financial Future. Head to domainmoney.com Cody Sanchez for you to get this free strategy session that's so interesting. So today we yell at each other on the Internet. We have massive judgment for each other. We think it's wrong often to associate, date or engage with somebody who has different views than us. And what we're actually doing is maybe killing our own superpower with that.

[B]

Yeah, well said. That's Right, Interesting.

[A]

So if you wanted to influence somebody, what is the way to do it? Is the way to do it curiosity.

[B]

Yeah. And. And then they'll feel it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And everything that they say, they'll be encouraged because they want to tell you, like, there isn't anybody out there that doesn't want to open up to you. They still want to be judged. And as soon as you're delighted, because curiosity is highly positive. I'm in a conversation how we got into this with Derek. I'm in a conversation three nights ago with a woman. We're describing another conversation. I interviewed somebody for a marketing position on my team, and shortly, I found out that they had a formative moment in their life was during a seance on a Ouija board and his ex girlfriend's haunted house that she grew up in.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because I find that stuff out about people. I find a thread, I start digging in. I'm gonna find out about you. And so this woman is listening to a conversation. She says, how do you get from an interview for a marketing job to Ouija board in a haunted house? I'm like, you know, it's. I don't know. It's just me doing my thing. I don't see how you got there at all. So I turn a conversation on her to draw her out, and she's being very guarded because she knows I'm getting ready to come at her with the skills. And she's like, you can't do this on me. And so we started out asking her about her background, where she grew up and her dad. And she's like, I don't remember anything about. I don't know anything about that. I don't know how he got there. I don't know. And this and that. Fifteen minutes later, I'm getting a detailed history of this guy, her father, and it's utterly fascinating. It enlightened me about Cuba. It enlightened me about the relationship between Spain and Cuba. I found out that Castro's parents were Cuban. Now, he was born. Or his parents were Spanish.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now he was born in Cuba. But your first set of values from age 0 to 5 is what you grew up with in the house. So even though he's Cuban, he started the world with Spanish values because his parents were emigrated from Spain.

[A]

Oh, shit. Those are my people. That's what they.

[B]

Which then puts a whole nother spin on the history. Now I'm fascinated by this. I'm curious. This is exactly the same thing that she told me 15 minutes earlier. She didn't know because she's blocking me. She wants to know am I using a technique on her and is it safe to open up and am I going to criticize? But I'm just, I'm fascinated. I'm curious. Which then comes out in how I respond. She says something sort of innocuously about some member of a family and I'm like, yeah, really? Like how does that work? Because I know this and I know that and how does it play in? I'm intensely curious. She opens up and not only that, at the end of the conversation, she wants to have another one. Having been opened up against her will, she found the experience great, which means she doesn't resent it, which means she'll talk to me in the future, which means I can ask deeply core value related questions in the future. If we're ever working on something together and we have an issue, he's going to trust me. This is the beginning of a great working relationship, great personal whatever you want. And that's what curiosity does. You can open anybody on earth up with curiosity.

[A]

Do you think? I mean, young people, especially today, there's lots of studies that show that we have less face to face communication than ever before. Lots of async communication. We don't really like to pick up the phone. You know, we like to do a lot of text communication. Do you think young people are worse at communicating than prior generations?

[B]

Without question. Communication. Emotional intelligence is an unlimited skill and a perishable skill. So if you haven't built it, you haven't built it. You know, it's like going to the gym. You're not going to be in shape unless you go to the gym. Stop going to the gym, you start sliding back. Now that doesn't mean they can't do it. And so the interesting thing we found about that is the 1 percenters, the top performers, in my view, no matter what the generation, they're all the same within the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. So they do have an innate curiosity and a desire for innovation and a desire first to beat the competition. But then the real revelation is how do I be the best I could be? That's the other thing I'm talking to people a lot about now. Because you may be best in class, but for you, you're only at your C grade level and you don't know it because you're best in class. So then how do you get to a level that you don't even know is there? And the top performers, as soon as they discover empathy, they're like wow, this is cool. I can't get enough of this. And I got a 22 year old, a 28 year old, 32 year old. And when we're doing our live in person training, they are some of the most interesting because the world has said, well, you only want to text, so I'll just text you. Or the educational institutions, kids these days just want to be digital. And so we'll feed them what they want and they don't know that they've been blocked from this. So when they discover communication, like the world has opened up. So yes, they tend to be less skilled in it, but when they discover it, they're more delighted than anybody else is interesting.

[A]

Yeah. It's almost like we've forgotten what we knew. Yeah, that's. So what about. I want to go back to something you said before because it's fascinating. You were negotiating with what we would call terrorists, bad guys.

[B]

Yeah, as bad as you can imagine.

[A]

What is your process for getting interested in them? Do you have to fake it for a point? Do you have to fake non disgust? How do you have a conversation with somebody that you hate like a terrorist?

[B]

No, you don't have to fake it. You don't have to fake curiosity. Like I didn't realize that at the time. Like I knew how influential the process was from practice. I didn't understand all the moving parts at the time. I just knew the abilities it gave me, which was, if I'm listening, if I say a couple of things, if I understand how they see things and I can feed it back to them, then I'm going to gain traction with them very quickly in a way that they, they are not prepared for, they're prepared for arguments. They were never prepared for empathy, ever. Bad guys who rehearse in advance what to expect. Hezbollah in the 80s when they were kidnapping westerns all over the place, they were told what the kidnapped victims were going to say. You know, the jailers had bosses and the jailers would say, you know, they're going to say they're innocent. Here's a predictable dialogue. And so it would wall the jailers off that were holding the hostages. But then nobody ever prepared for empathy. Al Qaeda didn't prepare for empathy. ISIS didn't prepare for empathy. It catches him off guard and I'm delighted that I know it's going to catch you off guard. So as soon as I understood how influential that was in a very short order. What would catch him off guard? I'm 15, 20 years ago, I'm being brought in to train the hostage negotiation team nationally for the United Arab Emirates. Sheikh, that's in charge of counterterrorism at the time, I'm walked in, and they say, look, understand ahead of time. If anybody takes hostages here, Sheikh wants to kill him. You know, if you take hostages on Emirati soil, he doesn't care who you are. You have violated our sovereignty, and we are going to deal with you accordingly. And so don't pitch the sheik that you're going to save lives across the board. He wants to know how you're going to make his people more operationally effective, his SWAT teams, how are we going to end this? As soon as possible. We don't want any Emiratis to get killed, but we ain't here to save bad guys. So I sit down with this guy, Fascinating dude, American educated, deeply insightful thinker. And also, he walks in with no entourage, by himself. So he sits down, he looks at me, and he says, what are you going to say? What are you going to teach my guys to say? And I said, here's the opening line. I want him to say, what you're doing is a great thing. And his mouth drops open, and he said, now I got you, because you can't wait to hear what I'm gonna say next. And that's exactly the power I want to give you guys. The bad guy's mouth is gonna drop open, and he's gonna be sitting there waiting to hear the next word. And that's when they have influence. And he says, you're hired.

[A]

I would hire you, too. That's wild. How did you know? Did you know you're gonna say that before you went in there?

[B]

When you start thinking about the dynamics and the patterns for the other side. If some terrorist has taken hostages, how do they see it? They're doing a great thing. And, you know, with my colleagues, we talked about it. We understand empathy. How does the other side see it? How do I get into your head? I have to say something that's really close to what the voice in your head is saying at the moment, because otherwise, the voice in your head is going to distract you. So as soon as I start lining up with the voice in your head, you don't listen to that. You start listening to me. Now I've got influence.

[A]

That's so true even in fights. Like, I can think of that same thing in, like, you know, interpersonal relationships. It's like when somebody's telling me something that is not aligned with the voice in my head, I'm ignoring It, I'm not listening to you. That makes all the sense in the world. And so if you start from that standpoint, the most important part of this conversation is really probably your research and preparation on who the human is. Are you doing a lot of preparation ahead of time or do these come back to the big five?

[B]

Yeah, well, you know, important fact, it comes back to the big five. In point of fact, we were taught initially what we call the motion labeling, just label the emotion you hear now that emotion was always going to be negative. And so then we made the presumption, well, yeah, of course it's a bad history, bad situation. So you're going to hear negative emotions. And I didn't really realize at the time, you know, the big five, four out of five are negative. So I've just started to increase my percentage chances because they're human, not because they're bad guys in a bad situation, because they're human. And then the brain science, what little there is, the neuroscience that backs it up, none of it contradicts it. There just hasn't been that much to support it. It has shown consistently that calling out negatives, not denying them, calling them out diffuses them. So that's why one of our, you know, I'm teaching a black swan method. I sit down in an opening meeting with you in a business setting. I'm probably going to say right off the bat, you know, at some point in time, you're probably going to wonder why you're here. At some point in time, you're going to ask yourself, is this worth my time? At some point in time, you're probably going to say to yourself, this guy's just greedy. He's only looking out for himself. I'm deactivating the negatives and inoculating from them too. That's the other thing most people don't realize. You inoculate. A lot of people fear speak the devil into existence. Their experience has been from denying negatives. And the thing that nobody ever notices, instead of saying, I don't want you to think I'm being grabbing with both hands here. That's a denial. But if I were to say instead, it's probably going to feel like I'm grabbing with both hands, your reaction is going to be like, well, you got to look out for yourself.

[A]

Yeah, that is. Why do I want to say that? Like, why do we want to say that back to you? Because that's my gut reaction.

[B]

Yeah, I think there's, there is a fundamental human instinct for fairness which the exploiters use against us on a regular basis. Like we call fair the F word. And so why is it so powerful on a regular basis when somebody says to you, like, I just want what's fair, you know, the, the manipulative negotiators learn that using that phrase will cause you, probably cause you to compromise your position, because inside you'd be like, I don't want to be unfair. You don't want to be unfair. So I think when we call it out in the other way, then you say, yeah, you know, I gotta look out from my side. But you have to look out for yourself too. I know that. That's the trigger. Now why that's a trigger. My hypothesis is that, you know, we are in fact wired for fairness.

[A]

Yeah. Otherwise we wouldn't exist as a society. Right. I mean, if we were all Machiavellian to our roots, dark triad, sociopaths that went after our own interests, we wouldn't be able to have a cooperative society.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We wouldn't be able to innovate to the level that we have. So at some degree, in order for humanity to continue, we had to err more on the side of, you know, peace, sex, continuation of species as opposed to violence and destruction. Otherwise we probably wouldn't be here. I mean, New York, how many people are in the city? Tens of millions. And if we were all destructive and self interested at all times, I don't think the city would work.

[B]

It'd be Mad Max, wouldn't it?

[A]

Yeah, that's right. That's right. What about, you know, when I've heard you say before that you don't really lie? Is that true? Has there ever been an investigation or a negotiation where it was life or death? So you had to lie or you think you should have to lie?

[B]

No, I don't think it's ever necessary. I'm very much against it. First of all, liars are really good at spotting lies. And so we'll often invite you to lie to test you, number one. So it's number two, even if you're great at lying, it's exhaustive. And if I talk to you long enough, you're going to say something contradictory and I'm going to figure it out. So even if I'm good at it, you're going to catch me ultimately and then the relationship is destroyed. So it's often a test. And we know of instance after instance where being determined to tell the truth was what made the difference. And everybody appreciates like this. Just don't lie. Just, just. It's really hard business these days. Deception by omission tends to be accepted. And it's because out of defensiveness, people don't know how to tell the truth. And you get really caught up in short term. And it's another white reason why. An example Egyptian business deal, and I'm picking it out because it's in the Arab world, you know, but they're people. So Egyptian businessman has got a contract with the Egyptian government for a $4 million contract. It's whatever his company's selling them and $4 million, and you know he's going to get big commission, company's going to make a lot of money, but he knows it's not going to work. And finally he can't take it anymore. And he reaches out to his government contact and says, look, this thing you guys are buying from us, it's going to fail you. They cancel a contract on a spot. Now, because he was such a successful salesman, he doesn't get fired. I'm sure he was worried about losing his job, but he just couldn't compromise his integrity, couldn't live with himself. And his boss, since he was a performer, is kind of like, all right, we're going to live with this. Three months later, same government point of contact comes back to him, awards him a $12 million no bid contract. So long term, it's going to work out for you. And even as I'm riffing on this now, listen to an interview by Jordan Peterson the other day. And he says the truth is the best long term strategy. So. But we get caught up between short term success and short term fears versus long term. I'm long term. And when you start looking around for it, the truth is the best long term strategy. But it feels like it's going to cost you now and it scares the heck out of you. Which is why often people defer to deception by omission. And so many people are kind of forgiving of it. But when I find out that you deceived me by omission, I'm probably not going to be angry with you, but I'll never trust you again.

[A]

Yeah, you have it just like in the back of your head a little bit. Yeah. You know, were you always like that? Like, were you like that as a kid or is that something that you became after being in the Bureau?

[B]

My father was very high integrity, a hard working, high integrity, blue collar, I'm proud to say, very blue collar guy.

[A]

Yeah. So he kind of instilled that in you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Interesting, because it definitely, you know, even if you look at a lot of our politicians today, on whichever side. It's almost like, you know, I always. I kind of laugh watching the debate because you're like, well, who lied more? You know, but it's not like, who didn't lie, it's like, who lied more. So we do have this. We have this natural proclivity, I think, in society, to say, it's cool we know they lied, but not that much. And I do think that negates our institutions by and large.

[B]

Yeah, well, we start with, what's a white lie? And then how big does that latitude get? And then for what purpose?

[A]

Yeah, what are some of the tells about somebody lying to you or not? How can you tell if somebody's lying to you?

[B]

Yeah, that's a great question. So I don't believe in tales per se. I believe much more in the way a polygraph works. Polygraph tries to figure out what you look like when you're telling the truth. So then when you come out of that profile, then you're lying or you're deceiving. Prosecutor Southern District in New York, Pat Fitzgerald. Brilliant dude, used to always say, the truth comes out the same way every time. So I will talk to you, not looking for tells, but I'm going to try to draw a bead on what you look like when you're telling the truth. Every now and then, somebody wants to play. They interview me. They want to play this two truths and a lie game. And so what I do, typically is I just start firing questions at you, and then we go through any one of your stories, and then the minute you're out of sync, I'm like, all right, so two truths and a lie. Which two stories came out the same way? Which story came out differently? What did you do differently? All I know is it's different. So what does that mean? That means tells are situational to the person in very broad terms. You can kind of guess. But another interview that I'm hearing recently, the person who's kind of this body language expert says, all right, so if you got a frown on your face, if you look angry, you could be angry. You could have gas.

[A]

True.

[B]

If I go, oh, they're angry and they're not, then you've blown it. You went down the wrong rabbit hole. So tells per se are strictly within context to the person. And I will talk to you long enough until I get an idea what you look like when you're telling the truth. That's what I'm looking for.

[A]

Interesting. And so how do you Beat up. Can you beat a. Do you think you can beat a polygraph test?

[B]

You can't beat a good polygrapher, and it's whether or not the polygrapher is any good. And a really good polygrapher will tell you before they put you on the box whether or not you're lying. And a good polygrapher either, if you tell the truth, you tell the truth one way. Maybe you never tell the truth, and a polygraph will pick that up. And so that's why a good polygrapher will say, we detect deception across the board. So we don't know what they're lying about, we don't know what they're telling the truth about. All we know is they're not into telling the truth. And so you don't beat the polygraph per se. Nobody ever. If it comes back inconclusive, which was. The good polygraphers in the bureau say it's inconclusive. They're like, okay, good. The guy's hiding something. We just don't know where it is or what it is. And so every now and then, somebody will take a polygraph. We asked him five questions, and he passed a polygraph. No, you got to ask about 30 questions. So I know if they asked five questions, then it was a lousy operator, not the machine. And so the operators vary so wildly. That's why it's generally not admissible in court.

[A]

That makes all the sense in the world. So it's really expertise as opposed to equipment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[B]

I heard about a. I never met him, but I heard about a guy in a bureau. He'd ask you a question and write down every body movement that you made after he asked a question. Very patient dude. Here's a question. What'd you have for breakfast? What day is it? What city you in? Baseline questions. If you tell the truth, you're going to answer each one of those questions exactly the same way. He's going to get a complete beat on that. Now, where were you last Thursday? For the first time, you held your breath for just a moment. He's going to see that. And so he was really good. He'd put him on the box afterwards, but he'd tell you what was going to happen because he was so observant of everything.

[A]

Yeah. You said in the beginning something crazy, which is.

[B]

I hope so.

[A]

So good stuff. You said that. Obviously, the. The bureau's trying to figure out what makes psychopaths, what makes serial killers. And you mentioned that it could be what happened to them with kids. With inconsistent, really bad parenting? Basically, yeah. Like, go deeper there. Like, if I have a kid and he hurts his sister and the first time I spank him and the second time I don't, does that create psychopaths? Like, what's the level of the game here as far as you guys found it?

[B]

There are a variety of ways it could happen. One of them is, first of all, if there are no rules, if there really are no rules, if there's no right and wrong, then you can act on impulse, because what do you have to feel guilty about? You feel guilty because you did something wrong. What if there is no wrong? What if it's all in your head? So how do you learn right and wrong from your parents, from your religion, from your government? That's how you learn right and wrong. So the profilers, you know, they start looking first at what happened. Was, is. Is. Did the parents teach them there were no rules, and then subsequently, what did the parents believe in? Because your parents could teach you there are no rules. But if you believe in religion, every religion's got a set of rules. Or what if you're in the Soviet Union or you're in a country that doesn't believe in religion or actively discourages religion as a set of rules to govern behavior? We start finding out, we collective hostage negotiators, globally. Every now and then we'd get somebody from another country that would take hostages and they. And they would kill indiscriminately. And we couldn't understand why they were from countries where the governments fell. So if you're from a country where you got your rules from the government and the government fail fell, what did you learn? There are no rules. So where you get your rules, and at some point in time, did something happen that caused you to believe that it was all made up and there was no right and wrong? And then there's some other behaviors that might interact to lean you in one direction or another.

[A]

So do you think that today in society we know that religion is declining like organized religion uptick? Maybe not over the last two years. It seems like there's some trend reversal. But I haven't seen the data. But we have seen, let's call it over the last hundred years, real decline in organized religion uptick in America? Also we've seen, I mean, we're in New York. It appears to me that we have a little bit of a. We've got a disagreement with rules here. Depending on who you are. You know, it's like, is it lawful? Is it not kind of depends. So do you think that means that we're creating more psychopaths today?

[B]

Yeah, I don't think so. Although the number has fluctuated. Like when I first started looking at the. The number, you know, they used to say like 1 in every 112, 116, and now they're saying roughly 1 in 35, which then I really enjoyed talking to groups of more than 35. That's horrifying because then I'll say, look around the room. Look around the room. See if you can spot psychopaths. Because there's more than 35 of us here, that means there's at least one. Whoa. So are we creating more or are we just increasing our ability to detect them? So while there may be a decline in organized religion, I'm not sure that correlates with a decline in spirituality. And so then that makes it a different question. And organized religion, bureaucracy based, then it always gets watered down. You know, I think Bono said some of the effect of Christianity today is what you have when Jesus has left the room. You know, he's very much a believer in Jesus. He wouldn't describe himself as a Christian. Or again, Jordan Peterson talking about his. I think he said his favorite writer or his favorite thinker is Nietzsche, who famously said God is dead.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my paraphrase of Jordan's description of that, well, that was just copy. It was good copy to get attention. And then he pointed out that in all of Nietzsche's criticism, he criticized organized religion, but he didn't criticize the Gospels. So then. All right, so now we got a departure. What's spirituality versus organized religion?

[A]

Interesting. You know what's kind of fascinating, I know that a lot of people today think that it's weird to talk with somebody that you don't agree with, but.

[B]

I supposed to throw a rock at him, right?

[A]

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Beat him with a pulp. Beat him to a pulp. But do you think it makes us weird that both you and I, like, really like when I was talking to those cartel members or when I'm talking to somebody that I think is totally out of the loony bin, I'm like so intrigued. I don't think there's anything more fascinating than getting to sit down with somebody that likes. It's almost hard to understand their worldview. And does that, does that mean that we're actually less empathetic in a way or less emotional in a way?

[B]

Well, I would, you know, according to my definition of empathy, we're more empathetic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So more empathetic and then, you know, this is going to sound very self serving. I think it, I think there's a deeper love for humanity to want to understand every human like this. Do I love humanity? You know, some people say, you know, I love people, but I don't like individuals. You know, I don't know what, where all these lines are or I love learning systems and origins, which is anthropology. Like I'm fascinated. How did you get to be how you are? So I think there's a deep appreciation and a deep optimism there too. I think there's a very deep optimism behind that, which I think everybody has, but we haven't had it covered up as much. Again, Jordan Peterson's contention in an interview recently was that people obey the law mostly out of cowardice. They're afraid of what's going to happen to them if they break the law, which is a harsh way of describing fear. Just because you're fearful, does that necessarily make you a coward? That depends upon your definition of what being a coward is. But so I think that we've had it less buried in us because if we start with the five original equipment and then as we've interacted through life, somebody said something to us, either mom or dad, probably mom, because we were around mom more, that somewhere deep inside us put an optimistic thing in our brain after we were born, somewhere in the first five years of our life. And I think that has stuck. And we've been lucky enough at those two lines of code that somebody embedded in us early on was optimistic.

[A]

Yeah, fascinating. What about, you know, so you don't think so? Psychopaths aren't born, they're created. Is that what you think? Like, are people born with a psychopathic gene?

[B]

I agree. Yeah, I'm there, I'm on that hypothesis. Yeah.

[A]

So if you have a kid that becomes a psychopath, is it largely your fault as a parent?

[B]

Fault versus accountability, what's the difference? Yeah, you're going to have to live with it. Yeah. Maybe it's a politician's answer. I once heard Chris Christie say it wasn't my fault that it happened, but I am accountable for the results, which was an interesting distinction. So maybe somebody else did it. And I think that's what some parents really struggle with. Somebody else damaged their kid under their nose and they didn't see it. And then by the time it manifested itself, it was extremely difficult to reverse, if irreversible at all. So, you know, that's a hard thing. Your kid's going to go out in the world they're going to be people around you that you should trust that betrayed you. Like it's a tough thing to lay it all on a parent. It's a tough thing, yeah.

[A]

Do you think that, do you think you can reverse psychopathy? Is that the right way to say it? Can you reverse psychopathy?

[B]

I think there's some, there's some forms of damage that can be reversed, possibly. You know, we're getting into new areas all the time with neuroscience. Chemical journeys that previously had been completely illegal and are starting to become experimental in the United States.

[A]

Meaning, like psychedelics.

[B]

Yeah. There are probably certain things that can never be reversed. There are, there are. We are never going to get away from the reality that there are going to be some people that we're going to need to lock up and never let out. Now, how many of them are like that? That's a tough one. You know what's going to happen to him? Andre Norman, friend of mine, doing serious jail time, convicted for attempted homicide eight times, has a moment when effectively God comes to him in a jail cell and says, enough. Maybe before that you'd have been convinced that you'd never get Andre out of what he was. Third ranking prison gang leader in the state he was in. Very, very, very dangerous, very bad guy. Everybody's scared of him for good reason now, making the world a better place. Before that moment, you'd have said, you probably would have said, you never let this dude out. Now he's making a great contribution to planet Earth. So it's a little bit hard to say what's irreversible.

[A]

How do you know he's not lying?

[B]

My gut and his actions since, you know, we crossed paths early on, introduced by a very good friend, Joe Polish, and Andre's just doing too much good in the world and just too straightforward. Like, you got a kid who's on drugs, Andre will find him, bring him.

[A]

And he said. What did he say happened?

[B]

He was. Two epiphanies hit him at the same time. And he was, in his description, in his jail cell plotting two murders so that he could rise to number one and two simultaneously. Things hit him. He was going to become the king of nowhere. I'm going to be king. And then what am I the king of? I'm the king of nowhere. And then I've also heard him say that God just said, that's enough.

[A]

Fascinating. So the only answer is, it's not like here's steps one through seven to stop becoming a psychopath. There's no four hour work week to psychopath's behavior changing.

[B]

Yeah. How do you solve the riddle? I don't know. Keep trying. Don't give up.

[A]

I've heard you also say that a lot about tone with your voice, which every time we talk, I always notice with you. You have, like, really good intonation. And I was reading a study that I thought was fascinating that shows that 38% of communication after studying hundreds of people in the workplace came through tone. Not even the words that we said, but the way that we said them determined our outcome. So if somebody got what they wanted or somebody didn't get what they want is often the way they said it, not the thing that they said.

[B]

Right, Right. What was the percentage again?

[A]

38%. Does that seem right?

[B]

Yep. Yep. I've seen a 38% number crop up a lot. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Do you think that that's true? And what do you know about tone and how to use it in conversations?

[B]

Tone is like the spin on a football or a baseball. Like a baseball player wants to throw a strike. For the. For the tone, for the ball to hit its target, it has to have spin. And so they throw a knuckleball. Baseball player pitches a ball that has no spin, the thing flies all over the place. Nobody knows where the hell it's going. The catcher doesn't know where it's going. Nobody knows it's going to miss the mark. So tone is very much like putting spin on a ball. It's essential for it to hit its target. And so then when you begin to experiment with it and are fascinated by it, curious about it, and you start picking it up different ways. The great comedians. Chris Rock delivers his monologue in a monotone. Nobody's going to laugh, but he starts adding his tone of voice, and then everything hits the mark. So if you're interested in communicating verbally, you start studying tone, you notice tone. And then if you want your words to be effective and I start realizing certain tone just. It doesn't matter how nice I said what I said or how nice the words were. If my tone was off, it ain't going to land. And so I want to be effective. And so I started to pay attention. And then hostage negotiations and the suicide hotline, they taught us, you know, the downward inflecting, calming tone, the late night fm, DJ voice. And then I'm doing a training after I understood how powerful that was. Psychologist in a room, hypnotherapist comes up to me afterwards. He says, that's exactly the same tone of voice. Hip, hyp, hypnotherapists are taught. So I'm like, ooh, there's more to this than meets the eye. And then the neuroscience starts to kick in. And your response to my tone of voice is a neurochemical response, which means it's not a choice. And if it's. If I can trigger neurochemicals in your brain, then you can't stop me from triggering them. Now, you can fight them, but I can initiate the process, which then is why curiosity is impossible to resist. Because my curious tone is going to dissolve your barriers. And whether you like it or not.

[A]

Yeah. Do I get to tell my husband now next time we fight, if I don't like his tone, that it just. It's not going to land at all. Do you ever. Do you ever say that to Wendy? She's like, listen, your tone, buddy. Ma'am.

[B]

Oh, I get. I hear about my tone from Wendy every now and then. Wendy. Wendy occasionally gets the real me. We joke around. We refer occasionally to me as her emotional support porcupine.

[A]

Actually, that's my Chris, too. Maybe it's a Chris thing. It's a Chris thing. He is literally the best emotional support animal, but he is a porcupine. Oh, my God. He's going to hate this. But that's true. Okay, so apologies to Wendy, but let's imagine that you're not with your business.

[B]

She told me she wanted me to tell you, and I tried to get the specifics out of her. You've got some place where you encourage people that are struggling with their businesses to get help and sell off assets or write themselves. And she had a cosmetic perfume endeavor with a celebrity social media influencer that didn't do the work, let him down in a big way. And she saw what you had, and she took the issue to some advisors. And now not only are they not going to lose money, but she's going to end up putting her investors in a black. So she wanted to thank you for that.

[A]

Yes. I love hearing that. That's so cool. I got to ping her on that. You know what's interesting is I found, and I would be curious, your take one. We didn't learn this stuff. We didn't learn about. We didn't learn negotiation, which is why your book was so important. Then we really didn't lear deal structuring and deal making, which is like taking your negotiation tactics and applying the language that is money or finance, AKA deal making terms. Right. Putting them together. And especially for women, we really don't negotiate deals, typically as often as our Male counterparts.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like I've found by and large, women will be the ones that let the business go down or like, you know, don't want to engage in the really tough conversation that's like, you fucked this up, you didn't do what you said you were going to do. You know, this partnership is not going to work. And obviously it would be better packaged than that. But instead of doing that, we just kind of let it slide. And I see it because we have like 3,000 members in our group and I watch the difference between men and women and it's a weird female phenomenon that I've seen. So I'm really excited that she did that. She seems like a badass overall, but a lot of women don't do that. Have you found there's big differences between the way women and men negotiate? Is my little qualitative study at all real in the world?

[B]

No, it's real. In my view it's due more to nurture than nature. So little boys, you get in a dust up when you're a kid, you go home, dad tells you, shake it off, walk it off, go back and kick his ass, stand up for yourself, fight. Women are generally nurtured by older women to work on the soft skills. Think about long term, think the relationship. So I think the nurturing for women there is to be more hopeful, to be more soft, skilled, more long term relationship oriented. So then getting into a world that appears to be combative and women as generally to be nurtured, not to be combative, they have been nurtured into assertion. But then if they can blend assertion with the soft skills, then suddenly they're superstars. And so then how does it get blended? The blending has been picked up most recently in the last decade or two, which I'm delighted to see because I'm a last century guy. Last century women were told be one of the guys which would extinguish their femininity. And in today's world, women are encouraged to retain their femininity in the business world. And it's starting to take hold where they can be very feminine at work. They can be a Laura Grenier, very feminine. And Laura Grenier is still going to kick your ass. You know, I love it on Shark Tank when in a super sweet way she tells Mr. Wonderful to shut up.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you like her while she's doing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is, which is kind of nice.

[B]

Yeah. So it's becoming more acceptable to become a badass. Somebody like you has the opportunity, hasn't sacrificed a bit of your femininity and being a badass. My on the Fireside app, the Fireside show that I have Fallon, Macbeth, Fallon, Fatima, younger badass female, very, very feminine. So it's becoming openly encouraged instead of openly discouraged. And so women are still catching up. There aren't as many role models, but the role models are starting to emerge. And like when I'm again Riyadh, supposedly the Islamic Sharia police and a male dominated culture, which was then 15 years ago, which, you know, the current leader MBS says that ain't taking us into the future. So at this conference, if I. I'm surrounded out in the hall by women of all ethnicities because they, they can't get enough of this. And they're being asked in Riyadh to be in implementation influence, get it done lead positions. And so they're looking to get into it and they're looking to get it done. They don't want to be jerks. They don't want to be kicking chairs across the table as a default mechanism. Now every now and then you got to kick a chair across the room, but not as your first move.

[A]

Have you ever actually kicked a chair across the room?

[B]

No.

[A]

Thrown one yet?

[B]

Not yet. Well, they're. I'm sure people who work for me have told it, said that it felt like it.

[A]

Yeah, you know, I remember when I was younger, you're right. I remember the generation of women right before me that were tough, like, and a lot of way I think they had to be and you know, and so they were more masculine, more like the other men. Right. And I thought I had to be like that too. I don't know if Wendy ever went through that, but I like cut my hair real short and didn't wear makeup and wore the suit and all the things and it was kind of ridiculous. And it really makes you like less endearing in a way because you're like, yeah, bro, what's up? And don't call me bro. And so it doesn't feel very real. It's almost like you're lying, but not on purpose.

[B]

Yeah, I think so. I think if you're extinguishing part of you to try to fit in, it's a bad idea. And for women, that is called for less. Now there are, you know, you get a large audience and they're not being ridiculed over it. They're not being told if somebody tells them to be one of the guys, they were like, yeah, I don't think so.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. No, they won't the other thing that I thought was interesting was I read this other statistic that said that there was a study done on a couple big corporations, but across thousands of individuals that showed that it isn't intelligence as measured by IQ that increases earnings. It's instead that those with higher ranking emotional intelligence earn on average 29,000 more than those with lower emotional intelligence. That's annually. You think it's true?

[B]

Thousand percent.

[A]

So if you have higher emotional intelligence, you could make more money?

[B]

Yes. And you can cultivate it and you can learn it and there's no limit to it. And it's perishable, which means if you don't pay attention to it, it'll go away. But you can rekindle it by paying attention to it.

[A]

And by paying attention to it, that just means like asking more questions and really wanting to know the answer.

[B]

Well, being more curious. And then also, you know, it's it. We call it cold read. Like, I walk into an airport and I'm getting ready to check in at the counter and the woman behind the counter is not meeting my eyes and I'm next in line and she's not looking up. She's not looking up. Finally, she kind of, okay, looks at me. So a very well intentioned but really wrong approach would be, how are you today? Well, I've seen that she's not good. And if I go, how are you today? I'm telling her that I'm not. I have my own agenda and I'm not paying attention to her. I walk up instead and I go, tough day. And she'll go, and this has happened. She'll go, no, no. And smile to me, that's just practice, you know, get out of how are you today? And a little bit more into. Looks like it's a tough day because you're not going to plan. It looks like you're having a good day. You look distracted. You look like something's on your mind. That's practice on your emotional intelligence. And I do it on a regular basis because I know it's perishable. Also, I'm very intentioned about my important phone calls. I don't take a call while I'm driving, while I'm walking, I'm sitting and listening. But I might get a call that I got to take in the airport. So I'm going to do some cold reads, emotional intelligence at the TSA guys at somebody else in line because the phone might ring and it might be somebody that been trying to get on the phone for weeks and I got to take the call. So you can work on your emotional intelligence in little ways. You work on it with your spouse, your significant other, and say, look, you know, I'm just. I'm trying to be more attentive. So there's all these opportunities to stay sharp.

[A]

And so simple. That doesn't really take much time.

[B]

Simple stuff.

[A]

Yeah. It seems like most things in life that have outsized return are not that complex, which doesn't mean they're not easy, but they're pretty simple.

[B]

Very good point. And simple as often, if it takes you out of your comfort zone. Most people over the age of 25 don't want to get out of the comfort zone. But after 25, if you find that you like it, then out of your comfort zone is where accelerated learning takes place. And if you then understand that they're like, oh, wow, I can get better faster, I'm in.

[A]

Yeah. I want to ask you one more question to close out, but I wanted to tell you, too. I meant to tell you last time that I had a bunch of our employees take the quiz at Black Swan, which I thought was so useful for us and for them. And so we talked about it a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, the types.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And so what is the name of the quiz again?

[B]

It's the three types. Three negotiator types.

[A]

And so this really helped me because we hired two new executives that were materially different.

[B]

Wow. Okay.

[A]

And I am not always the best with. With. I kind of can get in my lane where I go, I'm. I'm doing this. I'm going. And I could not pay attention to cues. And that really helped me, actually, to think about, oh, here's. Here's how they not only negotiate, but just, like, communicate through life.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So if. If anybody at all is wondering how to get a team to work better, you know, how to understand your partner. I think that quiz is super, super helpful. So that's [e-mail].

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Blackswanltd.com blackswanltd.com Obviously, Chris Voss on all the socials. I really like the Instagrams that you're doing lately. Yeah, they're my little also reminder of the cues and the things I can do daily to get better at negotiation. Like, Chris had a big negotiation yesterday, and I saw him. He, like, took a big breath beforehand.

[B]

Very good. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Kind of like Restret reset his adrenal state and then jumped in.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So I know that's from you, but the last question I wanted to ask you is, do you think that you can be interested in anyone. Like, is there a way to have any human be an interesting conversation and to never be bored when talking to somebody?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of. That's the way I delightfully sort of try to go through my life. Yeah, you can. It's if you're interested in where people come from, like, I may not like you, but I want to know how you got to how you are. Or I also know if I'm deeply curious in you, there's a really good chance I'm going to be able to gain some influence in you. So to me, it's combination of being both a missionary and a mercenary.

[A]

So do you ever have a moment where you're meeting with someone, you're like, God, I'm so bored right now in this conversation. And how do you get out of that?

[B]

I'm bored. If I find somebody whose core values are very vastly different than mine, I give their way into manipulation.

[A]

Or what if they just yammer about a bunch of stuff that you don't care about? Like, what if it's like PTA meetings and their dogs and something else that is unimportant to you in this situation? How do you flip your script on that?

[B]

Well, for me, if my energy level is there to intervene, like if I'm tired and I'm burned out, I don't know if I'm an omnivert or an outgoing introvert, you know, I don't know what it is. So if they're yammering on away and I just don't have the gas in the tank, I'm not going to fall asleep, fall asleep in front of them, but I'm not going to engage. But if I can, if I can rally the energy, then I'm going to be able to get them out of it. Whatever they're yammering on about, there's an interest in there that's probably fascinating. So I'm going to trigger into it. And then also my favorite question, he says, let's say they're yammering on about the pta. I'll probably say, what do you love about the pta? Now that's probably going to trigger an instantaneous state change in them and change the conversation, and then I can dig into it deeply and pretty soon I'm going to find out fascinating stuff about them.

[A]

Then it's like straight to daddy issues. Deep talk.

[B]

Yeah, whatever it might be. Ethnic issues, their perception of the world, how the world kicked their ass unfairly, but it's gonna change from a boring conversation to an interesting one if I can rally the energy to do it.

[A]

I love that. I think that's kind of nice because there's no excuse then to not have a conversation to go to deeper level with a human. And sometimes I make too many jokes about like, I'm so over small talk. That's pretty lazy on my part. And if I'm skilled enough, I should be able to go deeper than the small talk.

[B]

Yeah, well, exactly. You can. Small talk doesn't do anybody any good. But what's driving a small talk. And. And it's probably fascinating.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so let's make the change.

[A]

Love that. Chris Foss, you're the man.

[B]

Thank you very much. I would like to add in a shameless commercial.

[A]

Yes. Let's do it.

[B]

All right, so March 17th and 18th, 2025, we're doing a negotiation mastery summit in Louisville. Oh, now we ended up in Louisville because actually my company's going to put out a bourbon next year.

[A]

Get out. I also love Louisville. It is a cool city.

[B]

We found ourselves tasting bourbon in Louisville and we thought this has got to be a great place to have a conference.

[A]

Love this.

[B]

So the purpose. Why should anybody go to a two day conference? Because you make a quantum leap forward when you immerse yourself. Now your husband or anybody else that's reading our stuff. You know, I'm going to want you to get better incrementally. I'm going to want you to know before negotiation, take a deep breath. You should be constantly working on getting a little bit better each day. But if you're working the skills and you want it, then in two days you want to make six months of progress.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Then you go to a two day immersion and we're going to have some cool stuff there.

[A]

I'm coming.

[B]

It's going to be enjoyable.

[A]

I'm going to send some of our team too. Can anybody come?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Okay. I like it.

[B]

We'll be in Louisville.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

There may be some occasional sampling of bourbon involved.

[A]

I'm into that too. We got to lessen everybody's guards. Where do they go to learn more about it?

[B]

Black swanltd.com and it's going to be.

[A]

It's a pop up there or something. They'll see it right away.

[B]

Live in person event. Louisville.

[A]

Amazing. I love that idea. We're going to be there. You're the man. Chris Voss. Thank you so much.

[B]

Thank you.