How To Not Ruin A First Impression, Think Like A Magician & Captivate an Audience | Alex Ramon

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How To Not Ruin A First Impression, Think Like A Magician & Captivate an Audience | Alex Ramon"

Introduction

In this engaging episode of BigDeal, host Codie Sanchez welcomes Alex Ravel, a renowned magician and former Ringmaster with experience touring alongside Disney and the Ringling Brothers. Known for creating viral moments for celebrities like Taylor Swift, Alex shares invaluable insights on building captivating first impressions, mastering body language, and leveraging magical principles in everyday interactions and business strategies.

1. Recognizing and Handling Deception

Alex delves into the art of detecting lies, both from his perspective as a magician and in everyday situations.

"You can't really determine with 100% accuracy that someone's actually lying. But there's definitely ways to kind of investigate, analyze their body language, posture, and intonation." ([01:17])

He explains how magicians use specific techniques to prompt and identify deceptive behaviors in real-time interactions.

2. Reading and Choosing the Right Audience

Understanding the audience is crucial for a successful performance. Alex discusses how he gauges audience reactions to select the most engaged participants.

"Magicians can do is I can force something on you... and then determine if you're lying or telling the truth based off of your reaction." ([02:24])

He emphasizes the importance of selecting audience members who are receptive and can contribute positively to the show’s atmosphere.

3. The Importance of Body Language

Body language plays a pivotal role in communication and persuasion. Alex shares strategies for improving nonverbal cues to enhance personal interactions.

"Being comfortable with who you are, it goes back to that competence." ([15:40])

He recommends practices like rehearsing in front of a mirror to become more aware and in control of one’s body language.

4. Confidence Through Competence

Confidence isn't innate; it's built through competence and experience. Alex underscores the relationship between being knowledgeable and exuding confidence.

"Confidence is just competence. So when you know your stuff, I don't have to try to impress you." ([13:13])

He advises thorough preparation and continuous learning to develop genuine confidence in any setting.

5. Managing Challenging Audiences and Hecklers

Handling difficult audience members requires tact and assertiveness. Alex recounts experiences where he successfully navigated disruptive individuals to maintain show integrity.

"You absolutely avoid them. The unfortunate part that happens when you have somebody that's really engaging or being disruptive... but there's different techniques." ([54:14])

He shares methods like establishing authority and redirecting focus to uphold the performance’s flow.

6. Building and Diversifying Business Streams

Transitioning from performer to producer, Alex illustrates the importance of diversifying income sources to sustain and grow a business.

"So I end up acquiring a screen print embroidery company. And it was just the exact formula that Feld Entertainment does is they own these businesses that only serve as verticals to what they're doing." ([72:00])

He advocates for acquiring complementary businesses to enhance operational efficiency and reduce costs.

7. Negotiation Techniques and Reframing

Effective negotiation involves anticipating objections and presenting solutions that address concerns while maintaining objectives.

"If you know all their counter Arguments, then I'm better prepared to them." ([87:04])

Alex discusses the concept of reframing challenges as opportunities, using his collaboration with Taylor Swift as a case study.

8. Personal Stories: Performing with Taylor Swift

Alex shares a compelling story of consulting on Taylor Swift’s performance at the American Music Awards, highlighting the application of negotiation and reframing techniques under pressure.

"Reframing is essentially a negotiation. And the idea is to present you another option while addressing your objection." ([78:28])

His ability to adapt and resolve on-the-spot issues ensured the success of the performance despite initial setbacks.

9. The Stunt: Cold Shock Escape

Pushing personal limits, Alex recounts his daring "Cold Shock" escape stunt, emphasizing the importance of perseverance and mental fortitude.

"I wake up every day thinking the greatest thing that I'm gonna accomplish in my life, I haven't even done yet." ([80:55])

He illustrates how setting challenging goals fosters continuous growth and resilience.

Conclusion

Alex Ravel’s multifaceted experiences as a magician, performer, and entrepreneur offer profound lessons on communication, business strategy, and personal development. His insights into reading body language, managing audiences, and diversifying business interests provide actionable tactics for listeners aiming to enhance their personal and professional lives. Codie Sanchez and Alex wrap up the episode by encouraging listeners to embrace challenges and remain persistent in their pursuits, embodying the spirit of being a BigDeal.

Notable Quotes

• "Confidence is just competence. So when you know your stuff, I don't have to try to impress you." — Alex Ravel ([13:13])
• "Reframing is essentially a negotiation. And the idea is to present you another option while addressing your objection." — Alex Ravel ([78:28])
• "Being comfortable with who you are, it goes back to that competence." — Alex Ravel ([15:40])

Key Takeaways

• Competence Builds Confidence: Mastery of your field naturally leads to genuine confidence.
• Body Language Matters: Nonverbal cues significantly influence how others perceive and interact with you.
• Know Your Audience: Tailoring your approach based on audience reactions can enhance engagement and effectiveness.
• Diversify Business Streams: Creating complementary income sources can stabilize and grow your business.
• Effective Negotiation: Anticipating objections and reframing challenges are crucial for successful negotiations.
• Embrace Challenges: Setting and pursuing difficult goals fosters personal growth and resilience.

This episode serves as a treasure trove of strategies for anyone looking to improve their interpersonal skills, business acumen, and overall presence in both personal and professional realms.

Transcript

[Cody Sanchez]

Hi and welcome back to the Big Deal podcast. I'm Cody Sanchez and this is for those of you who don't want to just be rich, but free and are willing to do what it takes to get there. Today we have the man who helped create one of the most viral moments ever for the one, the only, the Taylor Swift. We have the man who also was a Ringling Brothers and Barnum Bailey Circus ringmaster, also toured with Disney. One of the most toured magicians out there actually put himself inside of a box of freezing cold water with locks and escaped it. Why am I bringing somebody like this to the podcast? Because if you have ever wondered how to become more seductive, how to get people to listen to you, how do you get respected, how do you push back when somebody doesn't listen to your boundaries? How do you present and create magic in the way that you show up in the world? This is the man to listen to. Today we are going to break down questions like are you actually turning people off before you even say a word? Without further ado, let's get into this episode with Alex Ravel. So in some ways you lie for a living, doing magic tricks. Can you also tell if somebody is lying to you?

[Alex Ravel]

Well, the short answer is yes and no. You can't really determine with 100% accuracy that someone's actually lying. But there's definitely ways to kind of investigate, kind of to analyze their body language, their posture, their intonation. And as a magician, I'm doing experiments every day, right? I'm going up to people and the interesting thing that magicians can do is I can force something on you, whether it's a free choice or a question where I already know the answer, and then determine if you're lying or telling the truth based off of your reaction. So here's a simple example. Say I know what your card is and I say, is this your card? And they go, no. Well, I already know because I use different techniques and now that's a tell. So if I approach them again, I know if they're lying or not. Does that make sense? It's that I already know the answer and then I can prompt them to respond and based off the response, I can kind of analyze how they lie.

[Cody Sanchez]

How can you tell, typically, if somebody is lying to you or not? Like, are there things that you notice with their face?

[Alex Ravel]

The most obvious one, and people probably have seen this and heard about it, is the eye flutters. Yeah, like that. Eye flutters. A blink on a response. So if I ask you a question and like no matter what, you say no. Okay. No matter what I ask you, you say no. Understand?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yes. Oh, no.

[Alex Ravel]

Oh, wow. See how easy that was? Is that automatically something so simple like that? Because magic is a reflex. It's a reflex. It's not something that you're thinking about. You're in a conversation right now. This is very low key. We're just communicating. And I just prompted you to lie, but you couldn't. So it's unnatural, right? So now when I ask you another question, it's like, is this a cactus?

[Cody Sanchez]

No, because you told me, but now I'm lying.

[Alex Ravel]

But now you're lying. And so what happened is also what you didn't even realize and you could play that back, you know, play it back, is that your eye fluttered when you said no, because you're having to think about it. So because I'm saying, is this a cactus? And you just went and you blinked and you weren't even aware of it. And those are little micro moments that once you get adept at reading people, cold reading people, experiencing with people, different personalities, magicians, what we do all the time is we go into an audience as we're performing and we're looking at everyone there and determining who's going to be and have the best reaction, who's going to be the best volunteer to give me the greatest, kind of greatest reaction as I'm performing. So I might see somebody, and if they're kind of like this one, I have to flip them. I have to try and make sure that they're enjoying the performance. But also it, you know, clues me in on, well, I don't want to use this person because they might be just like a dud. Because part of the experience of magic is a great presentation, it's a great moment, It's a great experience for an audience. But definitely determining how someone's going to react is a skill set that magicians, a lot of magicians have. And something that I have that I can just look at an audience and go, that's the guy right there.

[Cody Sanchez]

So when you're thinking about who to pick, let's say you're on stage, you're going out 1. What are you looking for? Are you looking for somebody who is easy to manipulate, or are you looking for somebody who. Okay, so what does it mean to look for somebody who is easy to manipulate? How can you tell?

[Alex Ravel]

The biggest thing is that people making eye contact with me. Because a lot of times people think, when you go into the audience, I need someone from the audience. They go in they'll go. And if they're kind of looking away from me but with a little smirk, then I know they're up for a good time. You know what? The worst person. I'll tell you who. The worst person to pick for a magic show or just any sort of presentation, doesn't it just have to be magic? Is the person who is the most eager to get up on stage. So if there's someone that's like, I want to do it, I want to do it, it's like automatic. No. Why automatic? Because they're not will. They want it to be about them. They want the limelight. They want to be on stage and show, and they want to be the star. That's not what I need. What I need is I need someone who is going to be. They're going to allow me to have fun with them and basically be the prop for them, because they don't know what's going to happen. They don't know what's going to happen in the show. And I don't need somebody who's bouncing off the walls, because if they're bouncing off the walls right during the moment that I need them to be focused, we lose the whole trick. The effect means nothing because it was lost. But they're antics, okay? But if I have somebody who I know would be easy to suggest to, like, hey, I need you to stand right here. I need you to wink right now. I need you to smile here. Because there's different routines that I have where I'm coaching them and I'm telling them what to do. It's called a cod corpse, right? What happens is I'm instructing them. I'm instant stooging them. They don't know that this is what's going to happen. So if I say to somebody, this happened in a show of mine, at the end of this show, at the end of this routine, I gave applause to this guy, and everybody's applauding, and they're like, great. And as I shook his hand, I told him. And this was a very flamboyant man. I said. I shook his hand and I said, do a pirouette. Because I knew he knew how to. I said, do a pirouette. And as I told him, he looked at me and was like, right. So then what I did is I turned away, he spun. It looked amazing, but I pretended that I didn't see it. And the whole audience goes, oh, my gosh. And then I. Out of the corner of my eye, look. And I go, oh, no. No, no, like I'm going to stop him. And that is the key moment. And it was knowing ahead of time, bringing him on stage, seeing that he was able to take instruction, you know, that I knew that I could get that out of him. Same thing with kids.

[Cody Sanchez]

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[Alex Ravel]

Oh, that's a good question. Reading magic. Well, first of all, I should ask you this question. What do you think is the most common question asked as a magician?

[Cody Sanchez]

How do you do a trick?

[Alex Ravel]

How do you do it? Right. Yeah, but it's the most obvious question, right? It's like kind of uninteresting.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's like saying, how do you make money, Cody? You're like, that's freaking complex.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, right, Totally. It's like, this is the most uninteresting question you can ask, although it's the most common. A better question is, do you know how other magicians do their tricks? Right? Like, if I were to ask you, I might say, so, Cody, this business over here, what are they doing? How are they actually making it happen? And you're going, well, actually, here's. Here's the rules, here's the deal, here's how it's structured. This person's taking a piece here, this. Because you know all about it. So same thing with magic. Imagine seeing sheet music. If I had sheet music right here. Can you read music?

[Cody Sanchez]

No.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, me neither. I see a bunch of black squiggly lines, right? I'm just like, I don't know what this is. I guess it's you. I don't know anything. But someone who can Read music, right? They can look at it. They know what it is, they know what it sounds like, the beats, the tempo. They know everything. Now I can read magic so I can watch another magician, Okay? I know why he's saying the things he's saying, why he's standing, the way he's standing, why he's wearing what he's wearing, why he's choosing to use these specific words. Because I can read magic and I can see and just by watching, and I'm not trying to figure it out, but I know what he's going to do and how he's going to do it before the audience even realizes. I was watching a friend of mine in Vegas, I went to a show and, like, halfway through the trick, I'm just like, this is great. That's amazing. Nothing's happened yet, but I know where he's going to go. And so that's what reading magic is. If you know enough about magic and you can read it, you can watch a magician. And so therefore, I'm more interested in the presentation than the actual method.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, it's sort of interesting. It kind of reminds me of body language. Like, they say that 80% of body language is nonverbal.

[Alex Ravel]

Totally.

[Cody Sanchez]

And so I wonder, you know, do you think that we are turning people off? We're losing people before we even open our mouths sometimes?

[Alex Ravel]

Oh, 100%. 100%. And that's why first impressions is so important. Right? I mean, these things seem so obvious. But before every one of my shows, the curtain's down and I'll walk out, I'll get mic'd up, it's four minutes, three minutes till show. I'll walk across the stage and I'll listen to the audience. And I can determine, because I know how many members we have that night, whether it's, you know, a couple hundred or whatever. And I can say they're quiet. For this size of group, they're quiet. What does that mean? That means my first impression, I have to get them there. I have to raise their energy a little bit. If they're really loud and they're chatting and they're, you know, making a lot of noise, I'm like, they're a little rambunctious, and I'm going to have to get their attention. Hold it. I'm not going to allow for them to basically run away in their pockets of friends. And then I'm trying to catch them saying, hey, pay attention, pay attention. So it's constantly, you know, listening to the audience. And I suppose the best Way to do it is to go out there and be genuine, right? So even when I demonstrate of Wall street, right, I was out there, come out from the very beginning, and it's like, hey, everybody, let's get started. No one's paying attention, right? There's hundreds of people in this conference room, right? And you just have to wait, because I feel like if you bash them and you're like, come on, people, let's go. Like it's a high school pep rally. Adults and people are like, who are you? Wait, what are we doing here? But if it's like, all right, we're going to get going here. Are you ready? And then I also do a lot of things within that particular performance or that event. I'm engaging with a few people in the front row. That allows people to settle in, and then I can address the group as a whole. So it's constantly auditing and constantly keeping an eye and being aware of the entire audience, especially when you're a large audience, whether it's up front, when it's in the back, and all things.

[Cody Sanchez]

What do you think about? You know, I've seen you do this one on one with a lot of people. And so, you know, let's say men, for instance, right now, I think it's hard dating out there. There's a lot of men that are maybe, you know, I think it's called projecting. Like, they'll go up to a woman at a bar and they'll. They'll lean in and they'll be loud and, you know, kind of close the space between the woman, and then they're sort of rude if it doesn't work out. And so this projecting is actually a sign of a lack of confidence as opposed to. They think it is confidence. So instead, how do you project individual confidence?

[Alex Ravel]

Well, I think the best answer can be summed up in one word. Competence. Confidence is just competence. So when you know your stuff, I don't have to try to impress you, right? If I ask you all about business, you're not going to go? Well, I think that you're just going to go, this is what it is, right? I mean, and so someone asks me about performance, about show. I've literally done thousands of shows for millions of people live, not including media, right? Live. So I just sit there and go, oh, I know this audience. Why? Because I've been in front of this kind of audience a thousand times, right? Here's the best move for picking up a girl, especially. So I work in a casino, and I've been Working in casinos for years. And so what happens? There's nightclubs in the casino, and then I'm a resident there, so I have a show there. People know me. I'd walk in, and they just let me in and whatever. And this was the best way, and it's so funny is I'd wait. I would see some guy try and hit on this girl. And this girl is always just like, oh, gosh. Every time. Every time they're loud, they're, you know, spitting all over her because they're drunk. And I like, oh, my gosh. And then the guy would leave, and she's like, turn away. Roll her eyes. And I just go over to her, and I would just, like, put my hand on her shoulder and just say, I just have to apologize for that guy. I know you're having a good time. I'm so sorry you have to deal with that. Have a great night.

[Cody Sanchez]

And then she'd start to Talk with.

[Alex Ravel]

You 1000 every time. And the thing was, is that she'd look at me like, oh, my gosh. Thank you. Like, I'm noticing her situation that's being genuine. Cause I was genuine. And whether something happened or not doesn't really matter. But, like, it allowed the door to be opened. So now she knows that I'm not a creep and I'm not gonna bother her.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. It's almost like you're releasing the pressure valve, too. She's like, ah.

[Alex Ravel]

Ah.

[Cody Sanchez]

And you're like. And then you're her exhale. You get to catch the exhale, which is really interesting.

[Alex Ravel]

You see it all the time in casinos and the nightclubs. It's so funny. And I'm always like, here it goes. But to be perfectly honest, I haven't been in the nightclub scene for a while. I've been doing other things.

[Cody Sanchez]

But when I did go, that was your move.

[Alex Ravel]

That was the move. That was the move. Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

So I think for a lot of people, they're not even aware of their body language. They're not even aware of what happens when they present to somebody. How can somebody change their body language in the way that they engage with people if nonverbal is so important?

[Alex Ravel]

Well, there's a book that I read, and it's, like, a fascinating book, but it was geared for magicians. It was called Magic and Showmanship. Okay. It's written 80 years ago. Who knows? And it literally broke down in diagrams of how to stand, how to turn, if you drop something. And I remember reading that as a teenager, and it immediately was like, oh, I'm doing things so wrong. Like if I drop something, people usually just bend over like this. Like, that looks awful. You know, what you should do is just bend at your legs. Kind of like what ladies have to do with a dress on, right? You're not bending over. You're kind of bending at the knees, reaching down, and that way your body and your torso is straight and flat to the audience. And it's the same idea. And so I think being comfortable with who you are, it goes back to that competence. I have to say, I have to keep going back to that because I believe in it so strongly. Is that practice in front of a mirror, something. Also, I mean, this sounds silly, but what I would do every. I entered magic contests, and I won some magic contests as a teenager and even in adulthood. And something that I would do is I'd rehearse at night in front of a mirror. No props, no music, just basically one light on just in front of a mirror. And I'd practice an eyebrow raise, a smirk, a look. So in my room growing up also, I had, like, playing cards taped onto the wall in different locations. So I would have a mirror here, or if I'm just facing this wall, those were my connection points with the audience. So I would look at, oh, two of diamonds is right here, four of clubs is right here, seven of hearts is here. And so that forced me and trained me to engage with all parts of the audience. So all of this being in front of a mirror, watching yourself, practicing how you're going to move, practicing how you would shake your hands, practicing your smiles, you know, these are things that seem kind of silly, but if you talk to any real expert in body language, even whether it's Robin Williams or Jim Carrey, they would spend hours in the mirror, just. You know what I mean? And it's no different. And if you do that, what that means is you are totally aware of your body. You're able to feel comfortable in it because you know what it looks. Because a lot of times people are just so nervous and have anxiety because of what other people may be thinking of them.

[Cody Sanchez]

They have such a problem.

[Alex Ravel]

And if you don't, if you're already comfortable with all that.

[Cody Sanchez]

That was one of the first things I noticed about you, is you were very particular with the smile, like when it came out. So you would have an ask of somebody, and then as soon as you had this rather big ask, it would be this huge smile, you know, full smile, right?

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

And then you would have another small ask, and then you'd have a smirk with an eyebrow raise. And I can't do it because I have Botox right now. So it's not. This is also a problem. I'll have to try it in the mirror with Botox. But it's a really good point. Like if, one, if you're going to go up to a girl in the bar, there's a trick of how to get her and you just shared it. And then two, if you're going to engage with somebody and ask them for something, it's like, how do you soften the ask? Do you think about that? If I want something, how can I use my face, my tone, my intonation in order to make the other person want to give it to me?

[Alex Ravel]

Wow, that's such a great question. I mean, I'm going to describe this in magic scenario. Okay. So a magician knows all sorts of different little ways to get you to behave and do something specifically that I want you to do whenever I want you to do it. Okay. And I think if we're going psychological here, the way to control someone's behavior, mostly to eliminate the motivation from the opposite behavior. For example, if I want to. If I want to hand you something and I want you to use your right hand as opposed to going, oh, here, Cody, and it might be a little awkward. I might cut off the motivation for you to use your left hand. Does that make sense? Yep. So, like, here, let me see if I have. I think I have a pen here. So I'm gonna give you this pen, actually. Can you. Is that in the way?

[Cody Sanchez]

What, this?

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, yeah, I'll give you this, but no, grab that too.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, yeah, right, right.

[Alex Ravel]

And so I just occupied. Do you get what they're saying? It's like I just occupied your brain with. Is this in the way moving? And this was a silly example that I just came up with right now. But it didn't feel awkward because if I were to give you a pen. If I were to give you a pen like this, and I said, here.

[Cody Sanchez]

I think I'd take.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, you would take it with your left hand because it's the closest hand. So I have to cut the motivation off. So what does that mean? It means that if I want somebody to acquiesce to one of my requests, I might. Instead of thinking of it like, oh, I really hope you do this, I might eliminate the motivations for them to give me an objection.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's so smart. You know, I think about it almost from a respect perspective. Like, I remember in my career, previously There were many points where I would be talking, but people wouldn't be listening, or I would. You know, I would feel like they weren't hearing me, or maybe I would talk too much because I felt like I wasn't getting the respect that I wanted, you know? And I think a lot of people feel like that, and especially maybe in meetings, like, what would you do in more of a corporate setting if you were trying to get somebody to actually listen and hear you?

[Alex Ravel]

Wow. This is where showmanship comes into play, and this is where theater techniques come into. And something that I love, and I've been doing it now because in this interview, right, in this conversation, and I did it downstairs right before, is that there's things that vocal intonations, interest. So, like, if I lean in, right, you're now more engaged. If I lower my voice to more of a whisper, it's called sotto voce. Right? These are, like, theater techniques. These are performance techniques. So if I tell you something and then I get really big because I'm super excited about it. It just. It keeps the interest gauge. Interest gauge right up. And that's what you want. So if you're in a meeting and you want to make sure that people are listening to you, if you're just. Nothing is worse, people. Nothing is worse than just, you know, slide deck and this monotone, right? Get out from behind the podium. So here's a great example of this main show for Wall street is your big event. Just had it a month ago. And I was giving a presentation, and I was speaking on reframing and seller financing, and your team emailed me and said, hey, can you send us your slide deck? First of all, I don't even know. I've never put a slide deck together in my life. I'm an entertainer. I'm an entertainer, and I'm just like, oh, my gosh. So I didn't send them anything, hoping that they'd forget and not ask me again. Like, then, morning up. Oh, okay. You can just bring your slide deck. And I was like. And so the night before the presentation, I'm sitting in bed and, like, for five minutes, I'm like, should I put a slide deck together? Like, I mean, I know how to put, like, a PowerPoint. Like, I know how to do it, but, man. And I just sat there and I go, in my brain, that's not what I do. That's not what I do. I'm gonna go do what I do, right? And so I made one slide. I didn't even use it. I forgot. So I plugged in my computer and said the title of the presentation. And then I'm like, all right, let's go. And I started engaging with the first row, and then, you know, had the whole presentation. But the point in that was I didn't even have to communicate in that. And then, of course, like, you have 45 minutes. I went, 50 minutes. I'm like, what time? I'm like, we went long. Oh, my gosh. And so the point of that is, how do you get people to listen? I'm going back to it. Competence. Knowing what you're going to talk about. For example, with Jordan Peterson. Oh, man, I watch his videos on YouTube. They're amazing. And he said before, he's like, you. If you're going to give an hour presentation, you need to know and be able to speak on this for, like, four hours. And you just. That's the competence, I think. Also rehearsal. Like, it seems so silly. Like, I know none of us want to do it, but record yourself, look in the mirror, practice, rehearse, go over it. Like, if you don't have a goal, if you don't have an endpoint, if you don't have a vision of where you want to be, you're never going to hit it, right? And so if you want to be interesting in a boardroom, what do you do? Know your stuff. Engage. Watch other performers. We were talking about this before I watched. You know who was amazing? To watch comedians, their timing has to be precise, because if their pause is too long, the audience drops. If they respond too quickly, they don't allow for the audience to react with laughter, and they say they punchline too soon. Half the audience, you know, doesn't hear it. So it's constantly listening and watching the audience.

[Cody Sanchez]

So it seems like a lot of being heard and listened to and respected is actually listening 100%.

[Alex Ravel]

So there's a man named Michael Davis. He's a very famous juggler. Okay? He was on SNL back in the day. Big shows. Amazing. I was probably 18 or 19 years old doing a show in Lafayette, California, at this country club kind of thing, and they hired me to perform for their annual event. 18, 19 years old. You know, I was making 400 bucks. I was like, this is amazing. I've made it, you know? And so I do this show, and everyone leaves except one guy, and I'm like, oh, he's gonna compliment me and everything. And I realized who it was, and I go, oh, my gosh. I knew who you are. Oh, my gosh. And he goes, good job, kid. You know, he goes, I just have one bit of advice for you. And I said, what's that? He said, listen to your audience. They will give you your entire show. Such good advice. So as I'm performing, right? The collective mind is greater than an individual, right? So as I'm performing and I'm doing my shows over the years, if there was a joke or I'm sorry, if there was like laughter coming out of this section after a certain point in my show, I didn't know what was said because if it's really funny, then I can use it in my show every night. And now I have a built in joke that feels off the cuff but actually came from the audience. So absolutely, your presentation should be catered to the individual audience because no audience is the same. There's a famous debate amongst magicians is, you know, is there such thing as a bad audience? And the classic answer is no, there's no such thing as bad audience, only bad performers, right? That's not true at all. There are awful audiences, I can tell you. I've been in front of many of them. And I was doing a show in Lake Tahoe and the audience was quiet. They were so quiet, they weren't clapping, they weren't laughing, they were nothing. It was like crickets. And at one point in the show, I exit stage for a second and one of my assistants goes, oh my gosh, this audience. What am. And I said, do you know why they're quiet? She's like, what do you mean why they're quiet? Because they suck. And I'm like, no. Well, yeah, but no, I was like, no. I said, they're cold.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, it's cold in the room.

[Alex Ravel]

It was winter. And my theater at the time had exterior walls and that venue, that theater was freezing. And so they've been up on the mountain, they're tired, they're watching a show, they have the jackets on and they're sitting like this and they don't want to move. Oh, no, but that, I mean, so easily. I could have just been like, oh, these audience suck. And dismissive. It's no. My job is to take an audience whether they're bad or good. And if they are bad, my job is to turn them into the best audience they can be. You're not always going to have the best audience. Not everyone's going to be with you a thousand percent all the time, right? So it's constantly catering and my career, my shows are 1000% that that's what makes comedians Great, too. Is that their all crowd work? People like the crowd work. Because why? It's genuine. It's real. We want something real.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, right.

[Alex Ravel]

So that applies in everyday life, in every situation. Be genuine, be present.

[Cody Sanchez]

You know, you were talking about Jordan Peterson and it reminded me of one of his lines, which is that the most dangerous person is the most articulate person.

[Alex Ravel]

Oh, my gosh, completely.

[Cody Sanchez]

Do you think that's true? And if that is true, how do we increase our ability to be articulate? Is that possible? Can somebody become better at speaking?

[Alex Ravel]

Wow. So, yes, they can become better. And something that I've done in the past in different lectures and presentations for magicians was the five things that make a great performer. The five things that makes a great performer. And it applies to everyone, really, in any of their fields. But number one is natural talent. Some people are just gifted. They're able to articulate easier. Maybe they're able to retain more than someone else. Natural talent. Right. The second thing is that natural talent is going to give opportunities. Okay. Those opportunities going to manifest. And now you can speak here, you can communicate here. You have a job opening here, whatever that case may be. The third thing is confidence and experience. And that's where that competence comes from. The confidence and the competence only comes through experience, which is doing it over and over again. The fourth thing is hard work. So what's that saying, you know, hard work beats talent if talent doesn't work hard. Right. And the fifth thing is gratitude. And I think is actually one of the most important ones. But when you. When you extrapolate that from performing lens. And in general, I have listened to YouTube videos and lectures thousands of hours. You do videos on, like, how many books you've read. Okay. Like, it's gaining the knowledge, but something that I've been doing more so because I feel like it was like a. Like a game, like achievements, right? Like, you read this many books and it's like, great. I just read on Audible. I listened to 59 books this month. It's like, no, I think it's better. What I've been trying to be intentional about is going through books, reading the same chapter over again and taking notes and careful notes. And I think that to answer the question, you can get better if you focus in on maybe one speech that you like, that you see a presentation and you. And you focus and you study how someone's so articulate, whether it's on a YouTube video. And I mean, YouTube is amazing because you can just break it down and watch it over and over again. So if you see someone that you're like, hey, I wish that I can communicate like them. Watch them over and over again, see what they're doing. Right. And I speak this way because I've been doing it for years. But, like, even there, when I'm giving that interesting information, I'm like, watch them again. My voice changes. You know, how I'm speaking, communicating, my intensity, that all changes. And I think that's what leads to a captivating and more articulate person.

[Cody Sanchez]

I love that. You know, I was reading up on magic before this. As one does.

[Alex Ravel]

Oh, yeah. As one does.

[Cody Sanchez]

And one thing that I didn't know is, did you know that Charles Manson was a hypnotist? Did you know that?

[Alex Ravel]

You are digging deep.

[Cody Sanchez]

Is that not true?

[Alex Ravel]

No, I don't know. I don't know.

[Cody Sanchez]

But, I mean, Charles Manson supposedly was a hypnotist and also hypnotized people in prison, which I thought was fascinating. So then I went down this hypnotist rap.

[Alex Ravel]

Hold on, hold on. Times. You said you were looking up magic. How does mass murder and hypnotism fall in that category? Now I know where you. Now I know where you group me.

[Cody Sanchez]

YouTube. Very Dark Rabbit hole at the end of the day. But I wanted to. I know that you do hypnotism sometimes.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, I've trained. I've never done it on my own in my own hip show, but I've definitely trained with.

[Cody Sanchez]

Is that what they call it?

[Alex Ravel]

Hip. It's a hip show. Yeah. Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

How does one train in hypnotism?

[Alex Ravel]

Oh, my gosh. The induction is the most important part, and it's not unlike reading your audience. That's why whenever you see a hypnotist show, they grab, like, 30 audience members. Right. First, and then they start eliminating them. And at the very end, there may be six people left on stage.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

And these are the six that are the most controllable, the ones that are the most easily suggestible. So everyone can be hypnotized. Okay. And think of it this way. Have you ever been. And here's. Here's an example of it. Have you ever been driving and all of a sudden you're there and you're like, oh, my gosh. Like, wait, I was zoned out and I just drove wherever it is.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yes.

[Alex Ravel]

That's essentially the same as hypnotism. You're kind of present, but your mind is elsewhere. So you're kind of blocking. You cannot recall anything that just took place, even though it actually happened in the physical World. Right. So the same idea. And some people are more prone to that. Some people are more susceptible to that. Right. So if you're really focused and you have caffeine and you're not tired and you are really, you know, energized, that's not gonna happen. When does that happen? You had a long day, you kind of relaxed, and you're just kind of over it, and then you zone out. That's why hip shows start with that. It's like, relax, and you start eliminating the people who maybe are going to be counter to that. And so you don't want somebody with high energy. You want somebody who's a little bit relaxed, and that's why it starts that way.

[Cody Sanchez]

Interesting. I had no idea about that. Yeah, it made me kind of think about one of the things that you told me about before that I'm not too sure, which is, tell me about what is an empty safe.

[Alex Ravel]

So the empty safe. And I absolutely love this. Why do magicians. And we can branch into hypnotism, but why do magicians keep their secrets?

[Cody Sanchez]

So other people can't copy them.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah. Okay. Business savvy. This is a business podcast. She's like, job security, first of all. Okay. Eliminate the competition. You grow your sales. No, that's not why.

[Cody Sanchez]

What?

[Alex Ravel]

That's not why.

[Cody Sanchez]

Okay.

[Alex Ravel]

The reason why magicians don't tell their secrets. Okay. Is because if the audience knew the secrets, they'd immediately become disenchanted. Right. So magicians guard an empty safe not just to protect these vital, important secrets, but they guard the safe so that other people don't discover that it's actually empty.

[Cody Sanchez]

Interesting.

[Alex Ravel]

Right?

[Cody Sanchez]

So it's like Santa Claus.

[Alex Ravel]

Kind of Santa Claus. I mean, it's like if I have a. My nephew and my niece. My niece is 1, and my nephew's 5. Fun age. And, you know, my sister's like, I think it might be time to take him to, like, Disneyland or something. It's like, I don't really want to go to Disneyland, but I would go with him. Why? Because I get to see it through his eyes. He gets to be enchanted by it all, by the magic of it. All. Right? And so a magician's job is to keep and maintain that for his audience.

[Cody Sanchez]

I love that. I actually think about that a little bit with business, too, because, you know, there's this idea that you should have complete trust, complete transparency with your employees, complete honesty with everything that you do, you know, completely upfront. He's an upfront guy. She's a transparent girl. And I'm not so sure about that.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, I mean, what does that mean? That's such a buzzword right now? Transparency, Right? I think. I mean, first of all, you could be honest and not transparent in everything. Nothing is fully transparent. I mean, if we want to go, you know, high level, like, does the government have secrets? Yes. Does your employer have secrets? Yes. You know, I love. I love when people, like, getting feuds on, like, you know, social media about the government is doing this and that. No. Well, this person does this and that. And I'm like, bro, you don't even know all the details of your life. Right. People lose their jobs, caught off guard. People, their spouses and infidelity, all these things happen. And people like, what? I didn't know this was happening. And yet you're so sure what's going on in government? Like, you know, you know, economical, you know, relations between different. Anyways, the point is, is that I find that really funny, but you can be truthful and also not fully transparent. There should be a little bit of that and a magician's job. And I would say this is magician. There's a famous quote too that says a magician is the most honest person in the room because I tell you I'm gonna fool you, and then I do, right? So I think that if you're honest with your employees and your business, and I am, too, I think that it's what I wanted to tell all my employees is like, hey, if something comes up, you tell me. And so I'm aware of it. And transparency would say, well, I need to tell them everything on my mind. It's like, no, I'll say, okay, I wrote that down. You're gonna have to come back to me in a month. Let me think about that. Or whatever. Have you. One of my employees, she kind of mentioned something to me, and I said, not now. I said, but please bring it up next quarter. And you know what she loved? What she loved is I kept track of it. I didn't dismiss her. And as it came to that time, I said, I know we have our conversation coming up. And when we had that conversation, she goes, that made me feel so good because I was there, I was present with her, and I was being honest with her as opposed to just going, I'm avoiding that or whatnot. So you could be honest without being fully transparent.

[Cody Sanchez]

I think it's very true. I mean, I think about our business right now, and there's this period in time where everybody wanted complete salary transparency. Remember that? Like the big. The big Tech companies were like, we're gonna tell what every single person at this company makes. And I remember when that was happening, talking to a friend who was gonna do this, ran a billion dollar company. And I was like, I think it's an awful idea. Let me tell you why. Just feel in your gut right now for a second how it feels if somebody knows exactly what you make right now. Like no matter what it is, it's high, it's low, it's mid, it's whatever. Like, how do you feel the second that I know exactly what you make or exactly how much you have in your bank account Feels a little weird, right? It feels weird. And so if you feel that way and you're pretty evolved on money because you got a lot of it, you've probably worked through scarcity mindset. How are your employees going to feel when they see it? And so I think there is this big belief that transparency is everything. But I like how Robert Greene talks about the fact that, you know, concealment is actually one of the biggest gifts that you can give in some instances.

[Alex Ravel]

I agree. That's such a good point. I don't think that everyone knowing what everyone's making, first of all, is that just what you said? Someone who has a lot of money is usually pretty evolved in money. There's this, you know, misapprehension that would like, people think that just because you have a lot of money, then they didn't earn it. They don't know anything. It was all trust fund, all that. It's like, that's so untrue. Most of the people with a lot of money that I know run small businesses, built something. Right. What's the stat? How many are self made millionaires in this country?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. 79%.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah. Almost 80% are all self made. They're competent people. They know how to run it. Not everyone, okay, not every single person knows all the intricacies of money. And that's why when people say like, oh, we're gonna do a capital gains tax, it's like you don't even understand what that means. Right. Like it's silly. It's like you don't even know what that means. Yes. And people who don't, people go, yeah, we should are people who don't have any capital gains. And so they don't, they don't know what it is. And it goes back to like just being, you know, competent about those, about money and whatnot. But yeah, no, I don't think that's a good idea. Magician, entertainers. Oh, My gosh. So entertainers are so funny. This happens all the time. Entertainers are talking and everybody's like, oh, you know, I got the best kid, you know, and they're bragging just like in business, right?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

They're like, oh, it's good. It's a good paying gig. It's like, how much? Oh, it's good. It's really paying. Really good. It's like, how much? No one wants to say. No one wants to say why? Because they don't know what's good. Like, they don't know if it's good or not. They, oh, it's a high paying gig. It's a good paying gig. It's like, maybe for you and maybe for someone else, it's not. But that's not the point. The point is to one, be able to live, in my opinion, right? Is to live within your means, Maximize your value to whoever it is, your client, your job, your work, whatever you're doing. And that's when you get the most back. And that's learning and meeting people like you. Like watching these podcasts, being educated. So that way it's going to serve you best. I hate the scarcity mindset and I hate this idea that, like, oh, well, because you're this or that, then you don't have the privileges everyone else. It's like, forget all that. Because when everybody says, like, oh, I'm not. I didn't grow up with this or whatever, it's like, okay, forget everybody else. Let's focus on you. What are you doing right now? What are the opportunities you have and how can we make your current situation better? It doesn't matter about everybody else. It doesn't matter. I had this conversation with a friend of mine one time, and she said, you know, she said, you know, I think if Timmy has a bunch of candy, she should share some with Jamal. I was like, I believe in charitable giving 100%. I believe in that. Yeah. And she goes, well, Timmy should share it. And I said, here's a better one. How about we teach Jamal that if he knocks on doors and says trick or treating, he can make candy that way. Forget Timmy. I don't care about Timmy. I'm focused on Jamal. Yeah. And, you know, this is a good friend of mine. And, you know, I say that with empowering people who may be thinking that they don't have as much as someone else. It's that comparison mindset. It's like, don't worry about them. Focus on you. How do we get you to where you Want to be. But before we can do that, you have to have. You have to have clarity. You have to have an ankle.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. You know, one of the things that's interesting that makes me think about this is, you know, everybody's always got an opinion of things. And so, you know, I remember the first time I gave a speech and there was a heckler in a crowd. Like somebody who really. Oh, yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

Like, wait, what does that look like? Okay, not to cut your story off. Well, how do you mean? What do you mean heckling you?

[Cody Sanchez]

Well, so this was talk about like a bad crowd. So this was, it was a. It was late at night. It was what I could only describe as a, like a mafia bar mitzvah that I was contracted to speak at. It was the weirdest thing I've ever been to. It was in Detroit. Tanner was there. And we're going on at 9:30. It's packed. There's, I don't know, 500, 600 people in the room. It's like kind of like a gala looking thing at a weird country club. And somehow I'm speaking at this event. And I fired my agent after that, but we did. So I'm in this crowd and it's loud, it's like bumpy music. They've been drinking for a while and so they're like, they're excited for you. We're ready to get out there now. Alex, you know me, I talk about buying business. Like, I have Graphs in my PowerPoint, I have flow charts. You have a slide deck. I have a slide deck.

[Alex Ravel]

Unlike me, you have a slide deck.

[Cody Sanchez]

I have a prepared slide deck with like a pointer. And so I'm looking at this crowd and I'm like, oh my fucking God. They don't want to hear this. And so I remember like vividly being like, oh my God, like I'm not gonna be able to get their attention. There's a bunch of them standing in the back drinking at the bar. They're having a whole different conversation while a couple hundred of them in front are like ready to go because the bar is in the same room. I'm like, this is a nightmare. So I watch the guy in front of me also with the slide deck. He's just getting murdered, right? He's just like, he's showing the graphs and the returns and everybody's like, yeah, Tom, blah, blah. They're just talking over him. He's sweating. Like, this is great. I get to go up after this guy. So anyway, they get off. People are like, you know when he leaves the stage.

[Alex Ravel]

And that was you and that.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, me. It was me in the audience. So whatever. Then they throw the lights, I go up and I'm like, I don't really know what I'm gonna do to handle this. And I had that moment where I'm like, do I engage with a little bit in the front? Do I yell at them? Do I. Whatever. And I just did the power play. I just stood there and I was just like. And then that makes people uncomfortable. Silence. The music's down, single light on. And I just kind of stood there and I waited until like people start fidgeting in their chairs, you know, so you can tell these people are nervous. They don't know what to do. You can kind of start to see them talk to other people. And then, you know, and then finally, I don't remember how many minutes, but it felt like six years. I'm trying not to sweat. And in the back I'm like, you got two choices. You can stay quietly or you can step outside and be as loud as you fucking want. But we gotta pick one of the two. And so. But I was nervous. Cause they could have been like, you're like mafia seeming guys. They could have been like, yeah, fuck you. And they'll gone back. But I think at least with that audience, what I was thinking, because I could feel them a little bit, I was like, they're tough and they're powerful and the only way they're going to respect me is if I come off tough and powerful back. If I like, hi, guys, please excuse me. Immediate loss.

[Alex Ravel]

100%. No, that I know those shows and you have to make that choice. And I think that you made the right choice. And I know those crowds. I work in a casino and I would say that in the ten plus years of me having residency in a casino, I've had to kick out four people in 10 years. Thousands of shows. And the most recent one happened this summer season. And there's this guy who was. Had a lot of drinks, right? And afterwards I told the cocktail waitress, no, like he came in with two martinis, right? He came in and you gave him another. I'm looking at his table and I could see what you do anyway. And at one point I, you know, he was like, we know how it's done. And like, I don't perform in a very challenging manner. It's all in good fun. And I would be, I'd probably be more nervous earlier in my career. But also if I knew he knew, oh, Right, right. But he didn't. He's just saying it because that's what you say in a magic shop. And so then I just said, you know what? It's time for you to leave. And then he's like, I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving. And so then I told Tony, who's my audio? I just said, you know, loop, pre show. So now music comes up. I pop my mic off, I kind of go over to them, and the people sitting around them can hear us, but the majority of the audience can't hear this interaction. And I said, it's time for you guys to leave. And then I did the same thing that you just did. I said. They go, no, no, no, no, no. We'll say. And his wife was, like, really embarrassed because she's like, he just had a lot to drink. And I said, I understand. I said, you have two choices. She goes, no, we'll stay. We'll stay. I go, it's past that. It's past that. You have two choices. Either you get up and leave, or security is going to be here in, like, two minutes and they're going to escort you off of the property. Yeah. She goes, no, no. We'll say. I go. It's. Those are your two options. You don't have any other options right now. I said, so I know it's embarrassing for you. And I'm talking to the woman now because he's like, I'm staying here. And so I was like. I was like, you know, I know it's embarrassing, but those are your options. And she. They. Eventually they got up, and it took some time, and it was. It was a little uncomfortable for the audience. But at the same time, they know that I have their back.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's exactly right.

[Alex Ravel]

I have the audience's back. And of course, what happens every single time, you know, they leave the theater, and then as soon as the door closes behind them, the whole audience claps. You know, they're clapping something that's. That's interesting. And your situation a little bit different because you're speaking at an event where people are buying tickets to my show to see it, is that, you know, it's like, you guys paid money for this, and I respect that. You know, how I pay my bills is by you guys buying tickets to my show. So you guys are my important customers that I want to make sure that I serve properly. The funny thing is, is they contact Ticketmaster. They wanted a refund. And I was like. And so box office, do you want to refund this. And I was like, no. I was like, first of all, I record all of my shows, right? And I have a mic. So that way, when the house mic is off, we still have it on the recording, right? So you can hear the whole exchange.

[Cody Sanchez]

They wanted a refund.

[Alex Ravel]

They want a refund. And I was like, no.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's one of the first, like, few times I'd be like, and no, also, you need to pay me more. Now I'm. Now I'm mad. I'm coming after you.

[Alex Ravel]

We're gonna bill you again. No, I mean. And so those things happen, but you definitely have to make those choices. And the more experience, the things that aren't going to throw me off earlier in my career, with less experience, I would have been like, oh, my gosh, what do I do? How do I handle this? And just a little nervous. And now it's, no, the show is going to continue. Here's something that I do in a lot of my shows, especially at corporate events or smaller, not kind of my theater casino show. I'll come out, they'll introduce me, Alex Trimone, and I'll start clapping. And I'll just keep clapping. I'll keep clapping. And it's kind of a funny joke. And people clap, and then they think, okay, it's over. And I'm like, you know, and then they, okay. And there's always. It's usually a man. It's usually a man that will go.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, so you can tell. And now he's got an eyebrow raised.

[Alex Ravel]

He's got an eyebrow. He's like, I'm not doing this. You know what I mean? Yes. And how it becomes this power play, right?

[Cody Sanchez]

It's.

[Alex Ravel]

I cannot let him not clap, because if I do, he now is the alpha in the show. Weird. I have to be the one in control, because the minute that I get this person to do it, they know, look, I'm running this. And I will wait it out because I'm not going anywhere. I'm not gonna start until I'm ready. And sometimes I'm ready based off the audience being prepared, being ready and receptible to the show. So this just happened. I was in Phoenix and I was doing this gig clapping. And this guy's like, no. And what happens is they kind of see. I'm like, okay, you're doing okay. I got you. And then I see the one person like, there he is. And now I zone in on him. I'm just staring at the guy. And when you make eye contact with somebody, you just dead Stare him the whole time. It makes most people uncomfortable because then they're just like, you know what I mean? And it's like, I'm fine with it. Like, I will sit here and stare you down. And then the whole audience kind of sees that the guy's not doing it. So what happens? All the audience turn on him and they're like, come on, dude, let's go. We want to see the show. And then. And then eventually they break. And sometimes it's been awkward to where it feels like we've been clapping for nine minutes. And really it's maybe only 30 seconds or 45 seconds. It's a really long time. But at the same time, it. Once he does it, then it's like, okay, now we're going to begin. And now he knows. And everyone knows. I'm in control of the show. I'm competent. I know what's happening. Right. There's no.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's a great point, too, because I also think it's like, for your everyday life, there's a lot of ways to do these power plays. And you're not trying to one up somebody, but you're trying to establish a certain level of respect, basically, in order to get people to engage. And, you know, you can see it a lot in meetings and business, let's say. So you always have. You have a group of people in a meeting, and you can kind of tell, like, who's typing on the computer and not paying attention, who's got, like, a look on their face like, I'd rather not be in this meeting today. And so even in, like, a small group of five or six people, the way to fix that is usually you call them out. You go, oh, hey, hey, Bob. Like, how's it going? You thought about that the other day, didn't you? And then they're like, fucking, put the video down. Right? And so it's like, you know, I think darkness always gives to the light. So where can you put some attention on it?

[Alex Ravel]

Totally.

[Cody Sanchez]

And that is how you assert dominance without even realizing. It's like the dog with the paw over your hand.

[Alex Ravel]

Right? I mean, calling attention to somebody and putting the kind of social anxieties on them.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

Shapes them up real quick, right? And another thing that I've done in my shows and my performances is, you know, just saying, hey, look, guys, you know, I'm here to give you my best. I'm here going to give you my best. I appreciate you giving me your best. And it's like, hey, we're here for a reason. And a purpose, you know, and can I be real with you guys? I'm going to be real. I'm going to be genuine. I'm present. And that's the biggest thing for me and my career now. And what my audience at the meet and greets always say is because I remember people's names and there's callbacks during the performance. And it's very highly engaging. And it's like, I want the audience to know that I did the show for them. It wasn't just all just a play, same line, same everything. No, no, I want it for them. And that keeps people who may be uninterested engaged, because you can call them out. And here's another thing that I do, which is if you see somebody straying, not kind of paying attention, not unlike what you just said, which was, hey, Bob, right. You had this point.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

You praised him a little bit. Right. And so if there's a guy who's kind of like, watching the show or whatever, a little less interested, I might look at him, go, pretty good, right? Like, that's. And all of a sudden I'm giving him permission. Yeah. Giving him some attention.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

Right.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. It's the same with hecklers. Like, you almost. You don't want to give the big hecklers too much attention, but you also have to move them to the side. Like, how do you manage trolls live?

[Alex Ravel]

Totally. You. You can't give them attention at all. And most of my heckling, and I really, really. Like I said, I don't get a lot of hecklers in my performance. My style, it's just. It's just not. I don't get that the people I've kicked out were drunk. But most of the disruptions that I get, and that's why I don't call them hecklers, per se, are just people who are super enthusiastic that are just being a little disruptive and annoying the people around them.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

So they were like, yeah, that's great. You know, and it's like, well, that wasn't. Nothing happened yet.

[Cody Sanchez]

You know that you say that.

[Alex Ravel]

No, no, no, no. It's. You don't give attention. You don't feed them.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

Here's what happens all the time. At the end of some routine or end of a moment, someone will say something really loud like, oh, yeah, it's not up your sleeve or something silly. And they think it's hilarious.

[Cody Sanchez]

Right.

[Alex Ravel]

They think it's great. And it's like, oh, boy. And I hear it, but I don't call any attention to it. And sometimes they go, he didn't hear me.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

So they say it again.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

And I just keep moving on as if I didn't. Even though I did. And I avoid them. I don't give them any energy, because if I look them in the eye and smile, that gives them permission to keep going. So I have to avoid them until I feel that I'm kind of settled back down. And so you absolutely avoid them. The unfortunate part that happens when you have somebody that's really engaging or being disruptive, that wants the attention and the energy is I have to kind of ignore that part of the audience. But there's different techniques that I could do to make sure that they're engaged. So as I'm talking and delivering a line, if I don't want to make eye contact and energy here, I could just include them just with a gesture. So, like, I could be talking to somebody, and I'm like, tanner's really going off right now. Like, he. I need to rein in on him. I'm not going to give him permission or smile, but I'm going to say, all right, well, everybody's here, and I could still gesture to them. And that feels it's kind of a line, Right. That includes this section of the audience. But, yeah, I don't think that giving them really what people want is the attention, and by giving them the attention, gives them permission to keep being disruptive. Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

Have you ever really bombed on a set? Like, have you ever just had, like, a terrible, terrible show?

[Alex Ravel]

I did. I had. I never should have been in there. Okay. They booked me. It was just like, Mafia Barmesto.

[Cody Sanchez]

Okay, okay. I've been there.

[Alex Ravel]

I've been there. I bombed. Oh, gosh. It was in Miami at the Faina. Now it's fancy people. You've been there, right? Yeah. Okay. You know the Faina?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

And the person who booked me there, they didn't describe the event well. Okay. And because of that, I just. It was like, I shouldn't have been there. Oh, my gosh. So what it was. It was like a mixer. They had a dj. They had karaoke planned. There was drinks in a bar. You know, just people socializing and chatting. And they're like, you're gonna be in the middle of this. And I get there, and I'm like, you didn't tell me there was gonna be a DJ or karaoke or live band. You just said, oh, this is like a mixer for some people. Can you do some magic? And then maybe we'll have it at the Front of the room. And it was my fault for, like, really not diving in. And it wasn't really a paid gig. It was, like, for a friend and acquaintance to kind of come in for this event. Anyways, I said, I'll be there. I'll do it. Well, I get there, there's this dj, loud music going, people shouting at each other on the dance floor, you know, and then the DJ has a mic and was like, okay, you know, we're gonna take a break. We're gonna take a break. You have, like, 15 minutes to just chill, go get some drinks, do whatever. And please welcome Alex Ramone.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh.

[Alex Ravel]

Oh.

[Cody Sanchez]

Big intro.

[Alex Ravel]

And I was like, you literally dismissed everybody. You dismissed everybody and then introed me. And I'm walking on. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. And so it just was bad. It was, like, the longest 15 minutes ever. And I had an agent there for a cruise line that I was working with at the time. She was, like, the only one paying attention. It's like. Because I'm like, geez, she's booking me. And I'm like, I promise this isn't how it goes on the ships. It's like, I promise people pay attention, and I do the show, and I have a moment where I engage an audience member. And it was one of those things where I go, I'm never going to get their attention. So I just am going to go and do the best that I can for what I'm doing. I also, you know.

[Cody Sanchez]

Were you sweating? Do you still remember it?

[Alex Ravel]

Oh, I still remember it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Like, it, like, with the first time I bombed on a speech, I. It stuck with me in a way that I was embarrassed how much it stuck with me. I was like, this doesn't matter. Nobody's dying. We're totally fine. And also, I may be terrible. Everything's falling apart. This is the worst moment. Like, did it really sit with you? I get why people are scared of public speaking.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah. I text my, you're only as good as your last at bat, you know?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

And I text my friend that night, and she's a singer, amazing singer out of Vegas. And I text her, and I just was like, I feel awful. And she was like, why? And I said, I just literally bombed at this event. And I just didn't. It was bad. And she had seen me before, and she's like, really? I was like, yeah, I don't bomb. It doesn't really happen. But, like, I bombed. And I go, you know, what is it like when this happens to you? She Texts back, honey, I never bomb.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's what everybody says. I don't buy it. I do not buy it.

[Alex Ravel]

No, no, not at all. Not at all.

[Cody Sanchez]

Everybody's had that moment.

[Alex Ravel]

And the only way to. The only way is to keep going and do the next game.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. That is the only way.

[Alex Ravel]

And that's what actually makes sense.

[Cody Sanchez]

Wasn't the next one hard, though. I got nervous. I never get nervous for the next speech. I was like, fuck, no, you weren't.

[Alex Ravel]

I wasn't nervous. I didn't remember that. I just was like, get me out of here.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

And so now and then I just was in Miami and I drove by for this other event, and I drove by the Faheen. I'm like, there it is.

[Cody Sanchez]

Like, that was stand out the way there.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah. But, you know, this actually kind of reminds me of what Tim Kennedy and Bill Perkins, they're all talking about at Main street over Wall street, right? They're all talking about this idea of suffering. They always talk about this idea of, like, keep going. It's the persistence. It's the relentlessness of the. Of the ending goal of keep going. If you. If you are going to allow something, a failure. I don't even use that word. I hate when people use that word. Oh, I had this failure. I failed here. It's like, no, no. Maybe you had an expensive lesson.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, 100%.

[Alex Ravel]

Maybe you had an emotional lesson. But that word failure, I never would use it. Like, I never use the word stress. I would never say I'm stressed. I have anxiety. That doesn't sit in my vocabulary. I don't ever verbalize that. It's like, okay, yeah, I feel that there's some intensity here or there might be some energy. I need to focus on something. But I just don't like that language. And if someone faces an obstacle or a failure, right. And that's it. Well, how can you ever be successful? How can you ever accomplish anything? You know? Like, that doesn't make sense to me.

[Cody Sanchez]

Wow. I mean, and also, I mean, I think it's all the scientific experiment, right? You know, like, everything in business is just, how fast can I make mistakes that won't kill me so that I can learn the next lesson and move forward in the game? You know, that's it.

[Alex Ravel]

It's like, fail fast.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's not even fail. It's just like, make mistakes fast, then don't give up and don't place that much emotional intention on them one way or the other.

[Alex Ravel]

Right. It's Like, a lot of times, people, if they say something like, get a bad review or, oh, that sucked. If you take that to heart. I remember, oh, my gosh, I got the worst review once. Oh, my gosh, I got the magazine. I framed it. So I remember, like, this guy, I was reading the review, and I'm like, this guy sucks. I'd hate to be him. It is me. It was in a magazine. So I toured with. I toured as the ringmaster for Ringling Brothers Bonneville Circus. I was 23 years old, one of the youngest guys in history to ever do it. And I'm not 6 4, middle age, with a big, booming baritone voice, right? And the producers of the show told me, like, we're going to look, this show is only going to work with your energy. You know, you don't have that voice to capture everybody. It's your energy. So I'm running around the arena with energy. All right, let's go. New York City, you know, like, that kind of an idea. So I got this review in a magazine, a circus magazine, which, let's be honest, probably has a subscription level about, you know, 58. But the point is, they wrote about me. Like, they're like, this guy's, you know, not a ringmaster. He's, you know, awful. He has no presence. He has no nothing or anything. And I was 23, and I read this thing, and I was like, wow, I'm awful to them. And I accepted the fact that I'm not in their taste. Like, I don't like heavy metal. Not because heavy metal musicians aren't good. It's just. That's not my taste. Yeah, right. And so you're not going to be everyone's taste, and you have to be okay with that, right? You have to be okay with knowing that those people don't like me. And the reason they don't like me is because I'm not a traditional ringmaster. Right? And then it wasn't till a few months later they had, like, people from this club that all come in and people who wrote at the magazine and all the other things. They came and they kind of met me and us, and I talked to them and I said, you know what? And in my head, I'm thinking, I read what you wrote about me, you know, but instead, I said, you know what? It is such an honor to be a part of this tradition and being in a way that I felt welcomed, and I appreciate that. And afterwards, I could see the crowd go, I like that. Right?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

And so that's how that works. But you can't let failures or even praises, you know, determine your outlook on what you want to do, what you want to accomplish, where you want to go in life. Because, you know, it's just be good. Be the best that you can, you know, maximize your potential.

[Cody Sanchez]

I could actually see you as a ringmaster, I feel like. Did they do a version of that now? Was that Hugh Jackman who was the ringmaster of the Circus?

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, he was. He played. Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

He's like, got a similar energy, I guess. He is kind of a big guy.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, he's a big guy, but he's.

[Cody Sanchez]

Got this smile and the.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

Which you have too.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, I would say that. Well, circus changed me. It really was. I didn't go to college. Right. I went to, you know, I went to the best college for the entertainment world. So at 20 years old, I started touring with Disney for three years and I toured with Ringling Brothers for two years.

[Cody Sanchez]

What'd you do when you were touring with Disney?

[Alex Ravel]

I was in a show called Disney Live, Mickey's Magic Show.

[Cody Sanchez]

What'd you play?

[Alex Ravel]

I was. I wasn't a character.

[Cody Sanchez]

I don't know. You say this like, obviously you know the show. Here's the character set.

[Alex Ravel]

No, I was doing magic on stage with Disney characters.

[Cody Sanchez]

Got it.

[Alex Ravel]

So it's a magic themed Disney show.

[Cody Sanchez]

Immediately thought you were Mickey Mouse.

[Alex Ravel]

No. You were Alex. The first time I was ever too tall for anything was too tall to Mickey Mouse.

[Cody Sanchez]

Which.

[Alex Ravel]

Disney's gonna hate that I said that anyways. Oh, man, that's another conversation. Anyways, the point is this. I toured for five years all over the world, and I didn't go to college. I went to tour with Disney at 20. Then by then, I'm done with Ringling brothers. I was 25, had all this experience and performing millions and thousands of shows. Millions of people, thousands of shows. And I didn't know what to do because no one's booking me. Because most entertainers, it's either like most entertainers are giggers. They gig work. Right. They do a show here, show here, you booking them for this gig and that gig. And no one was calling me to book me anymore because I'd been gone for five years touring. But the experience I had was what was commanding an audience of thousands at a time, being on TV shows, doing interviews, pitching a product, which was tickets.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

And so when I got off the road, I was like, I guess I sell tickets to my show. And that's actually how I began to produce in games. So I produced My own Show now for 15 years. And so I don't. No one produces myself. That's like, I have the contracts and the leases with the casinos and the billboards and the advertising and all that. Those are my contracts, my payroll, my everything else. Most entertainers are getting a paycheck, and then they go, thanks, and they. You know, they leave. And so. But Ringling kind of opened my eyes to that, and it changed who I was as a person, individual. It demanded so much of me to just grow. So at 23, it was like, okay, I have the keys to this circus. I'm the one in charge. And I took that. Yeah, I took that responsibility very seriously. And so, you know, at 23, and there's a cast of over 100. You know, we travel with 300 people at a time. It was like a little town moving around, lived on the circus train. It was amazing. Amazing experience.

[Cody Sanchez]

An actual train.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

Wow. What's the craziest circus story you have? I don't even know this about you.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, no, craziest. Well, I wouldn't say the craziest. Let's go to the most embarrassing. We were in Texas. We were in Corpus Christi, Texas. Hurricane Alex was coming through. There was a leak in the venue, and there was this puddle in the middle of the arena floor. And I'm the guy with six super trooper spotlights on me, and I'm like, let's go. Whatever. Say my lines, get them going, and I'm running.

[Cody Sanchez]

You have a cane and a hat and the whole outfit.

[Alex Ravel]

I didn't have a cane and a hat, but I had the really amazing set of tails. The jacket was incredible. It was amazing. I'll show you a photo. Anyhow, I'm running at the beginning of the show, and I jump off this platform, I land on the puddle, and I just start barrel rolling down the arena floor. And nothing sucks the cool out of you like a barrel, like, rolling on the ground. And my tails were over my head, and I'm, like, getting up, like, what do you do? You get up and you keep going like, what are you gonna do? And so that was really embarrassing. But, yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, my God. Do you have all the animals, too? Are they, like, tigers and bears?

[Alex Ravel]

There's tigers and we had elephants. Ringling Brothers since had. It was an old business model, and they lived on the train. They had animals. A lot of people, you know, got, you know, upset with the animals. I personally can only tell you I never saw any animals mistreated. I can only say from personal experience. Yeah. Whether Animals should be in shows or not. That's a different debate. But as far as the treatment, I personally never saw any animals mistreated. Yeah, Ring. The brothers just reopened and now they have. They changed the formula.

[Cody Sanchez]

Okay?

[Alex Ravel]

No animals, no ringmaster, no train. It's a little bit different. It's exciting show. I was on that.

[Cody Sanchez]

Who owns that? So is that private equity backed?

[Alex Ravel]

No, it's a private company. Feld Entertainment is about. Worth about $3 billion. One man and his daughters own a. They bought Ringley Brothers Circus, who knows, 50 something years ago. Feld Entertainment is a parent company of Disney on Ice, Ringling Brothers, Barnaby Circus, Monster Jam, Supercross, Motocross, all the big arena and stadium shows. It's Feld Entertainment. And that's actually where I really learned about business and the business part of the show business. Right. And here's something that I love this story. I love this story. And this happened with my friend. So the owner and CEO of Fail Entertainment at the time was a man named Kenneth Feld. And my friend was sitting with him at a show. I don't know if it was circus or Disneyland. It was some show. And they have intermission and there's people selling popcorn, cotton candy and those light ups, you know, the little wand that spin around with lights and all that stuff.

[Cody Sanchez]

I used to love that shit as a kid.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, you love it, right? And my friend said that Kenneth, they're sitting at intermission, they're looking around, they're seeing all these spinny lights going around. And Kenneth goes, you see that light? Goes, yeah. He goes, now these are arbitrary numbers. Arbitrary numbers. But the point will be made. So that cost us $2.25 to make. We sell it for 10 bucks. But I just bought the factory and now it costs us $2.17 per light. It's like an extra like cool $2 million a year or something.

[Cody Sanchez]

Like, I love that. And when he see the. He sees the lights, he sees money.

[Alex Ravel]

That's right. And so that was a first. Again, arbitrary numbers. Nicole's probably gonna text me and be like, why did you say that on the podcast? So, but the point is made is that he was such a smart businessman and the Felds were incredible to work with and work for. I consulted on some of their other productions and they're incredible, incredible people. Anyhow, that kind of opened my eyes to business and acquisition and how they made their money and the merch and everything else. Because that's ended up what I did right with you as being the person that really Also told me to go after it. I mean, I really. I found your content online, you know, your YouTube videos and Instagram videos. And then I joined Contrarian thinking. And you told me something that was like sage advice, Cody. And you just said. Because I'm like, I know showbiz, I know entertainment. You know, I don't know anything about Laundromats or H Vacs.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

And you said, well, look at what you're spending your most money on. And not just try and acquire something to gain the cash flow, but also acquire something that's gonna reduce your costs. And I'm like, duh. And I sell merch shirts and hats after my shows. And so I end up acquiring a screen print embroidery company. And it was just the exact formula that Feld Entertainment does is they own these businesses that only serve as verticals to what they're doing, which is their base, which for me is shows entertainment.

[Cody Sanchez]

And now you make all of our.

[Alex Ravel]

Merch, and I make all your merch.

[Cody Sanchez]

What's the name of the company?

[Alex Ravel]

Innovative imprints.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes. It's incredible. I mean, I think that's the most beautiful way to do business is you do a thing that you already love and you figure out how to make more money surrounding the thing that you love. And then if you're a pro like you, you buy the company that is already doing the thing as opposed to having to start it up. So I think it's. It's really cool. I loved that story.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, it's just.

[Cody Sanchez]

And I bet when you talk to magicians, they're like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, right?

[Cody Sanchez]

You bought a merch company, you own all your rights. Like, that's really rare. But guess what? Now you have all the middlemen out of it. You don't need the agent. You are the agent, right. You know, you don't need the manager. You don't need a third party merch company. It's you.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah. And I actually, it's funny because I did one of the largest magic conventions in the world was in Las Vegas. And we did some print for them, some work for them. And then I had a booth just saying, hey, here's what I'm doing. And a lot of people walking by the booth, they didn't know it was my booth number one. And they saw me like, hey, what are you doing? I go, oh, this is my booth. I own the company. And they're like, oh, so you're not performing anymore? And I'm like, yeah, I am like, you know, this is my side hustle. My side hustle happens to be, you know, seven figure business. But like, hey, you know, it's fun and. But it's. It's really cool. And I have magicians who I consult. I don't really have a mastermind or anything like that, but there's a lot of magicians who will regularly, regularly schedule, like, zoom calls with me to ask about advice and things about growing their business and performing. And so I think entertainers are notoriously awful with money. Yeah, they're just. That's why we hear so many actors, athletes, you know, all these celebrities and they're broke. And you're like, how did that happen? First of all, that is just such mismanagement. And just. It's sad because people. Well, a lot of it is living beyond your means, but also just not being smart enough to know how to handle it. And people think like, well, if here's an entertainer's strategy, right? Strategy on money, I'm gonna get famous enough to where I make enough money that I don't have to worry about money. Yeah, that's the worst strategy ever. It's not even a strategy. It's a. It's a. It's a dream. It's a fantasy.

[Cody Sanchez]

Did you watch the Vince McMahon documentary?

[Alex Ravel]

No.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, my God. You gotta watch it. First of all. Fucking crazy. That guy that, like, the stories about.

[Alex Ravel]

I seen, like, little excerpts from.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, it's. But I haven't watched so good. I think I'm only like three or four episodes in. I don't know if I'll watch the rest. But the first part is fascinating because that dude, I get why he is a billionaire multiple times over with the wwe. And I get. Now, I wouldn't do it all the same ethically, but it would be so funny. He'd be like. He's talking in the interview, you know, and he'd be like, you know, well, what was happening on stage? Because he was one of the very first entertainers that was also the owner while simultaneously performing. Being a character like that, that doesn't exist. And so he would be saying, well, at the time we bought this company, we're doing xyz and then on stage, you know, the idea was I was having an affair with my mistress and whatever. And he's like, storyline. Because he was talking about, that's not real life. That was part of this character set. But what I thought was fascinating is looking at their business model. I mean, they owned everything. They owned the rights they owned all the licensing, they had royalties on all their Gears, they bought their competitors. And despite him being a little bit of a crazy person, brilliant execution. And we don't see that enough in entertainment, so I think that's so interesting.

[Alex Ravel]

Not at all.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's such a good watch. That and the Martha Stewart documentary are incredible.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, those are really, really. Because so many people can get caught up with what you were saying. Kinda like the ethics of things like, oh, I don't like that guy. It's like, okay, let's remove him for a second and see what he does. See how he does it. See what the execution is. See his thought process, Right? Because we're not going to agree with everybody all the time. And that's no, you know, it's not defending him in any way because I haven't even seen the documentary. But definitely it was, for me, one of these obvious acquisitions in these verticals that now my deal box and what I only look at is something that's going to serve the foundation of what I do, which is entertainment and showbiz. So all of my acquisitions are verticals, as opposed to going, well, what can I do now? What can I do now? And being split and divided, it makes sense. I'm familiar. I'm aware this is gonna serve me this way. And I also love. Do you know the story about Jay Leno, the Jay Leno strategy? This. I saw Jay Leno do an interview or read an interview about this, and I was mind blown. And I'm like, jay Leno is a genius and my, you know, like, hero. So Jay Leno. So he was the host of the Tonight show for over 20 years. Like, 22 years, I think something like this. He's never spent a dime of his Tonight show money, huh? And in 20 years, he was paid over $300 million. So he began his career as a comedian, but he also worked at, like, a car dealership, right? Because we know him now. He loves collecting cars and he has this J. Lemon's garage and all this stuff. He has hundreds of cars and motorcycles and whatnot. So when he was beginning his career, he would pay all his bills with comedy, right? And the dealership was the money he banked, okay? That was his side hustle. That was his thing. Then as he got more and more famous, he realized, well, I can also afford my lifestyle with the cars and selling them, buying them, collecting them, whatever it is, and that can pay my bills. So he began to save all of his performance money. So by the time he got the Tonight show he was paying all his bills and he was living just off of the cars. Wow. And he still did gigs, though, and he still did shows. So even at the Tonight show, he would regularly do comedy clubs, even when he had the Tonight Show. And it's this idea that, you know, we have multiple streams of income. Multiple streams, Right. Have all these things. It's like, I love that. After you. I don't want streams, I want a river. Right. Like, so let's get your river first. Once you have a river, then get your other streams. And I think that so often people try and just think they hear this buzzword from, you know, whether it's influencers or whatever it is, we need streams. It's like, yeah, that's after a certain point, once you can, you know, once you know how to handle money, once you know what you're going to do with it, then venue, you diversify.

[Cody Sanchez]

I love that. I kind of want to close out with two things. One is, we haven't talked a ton about negotiation, but you're very good at it. I want to talk a little bit about reframing and maybe Taylor Swift.

[Alex Ravel]

Oh, I love that Taylor Swift story. I knew that was coming. So reframing is essentially a negotiation. And the idea is this. If I present you with a deal point and you have an objection. Okay. The reframe is to present you another option while addressing your objection. But still making the same request. I'm still getting the same point. Right. That's a part of the negotiation. So here's what happened with Taylor. I'm working consulting with Taylor Swift on Blank Space, and it was for her world premiere performance on the American Music Awards. And so this production company in la, they called me to consult on this performance and they wanted this magic effect. And so what I came up with was the flaming rose. The flaming rose essentially was. She had this beautiful red rose burst into flames, and it was stayed beautiful and pristine. She grabbed a petal from the rose, touched the fire. She's holding fire in one hand, the rose on fire in the other. It's amazing. You know, Buzzfeed named in the top moments of the AMAs. It was really great. At the end, rehearsals, not so great. So what happened? I came in and the first day, I'm teaching her how to do this trick. It's not working. Like, I can do it, but it's not working for her. And that's no knock at her. It's just that the prop wasn't and it. It's less of. It's more of a special effect than a magic trick, okay? And it's just not working. She's moving and she's walking. There's people around her. There's a lot going on. It's just not working. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. And they're coming over to me like, hey, what's going on? Right? Like, they're paying me. I'm consulting. This is a big deal. This needs to work. Why is it not working? And immediately I have to reframe the situation. So instead of going like, hey, Alex, this isn't working. What's going on here? What? I. As soon as they came over, I'm like, okay, I need to own it. And they say, hey, Alex, it's not working. I said, I know. I don't want it to work. They go. I go, I don't want it to work. I said, I want it to fail all during rehearsals. That's what rehearsals are for. So that way we troubleshoot all those things, and it works on Saturday. I don't care if it works today. It has to work Saturday. And I'm like, we gotta fix this thing.

[Cody Sanchez]

So that night, I am totally gonna use that.

[Alex Ravel]

That night, I'm like, Tanner's, like, taking.

[Cody Sanchez]

Notes for every time I'm yelling about YouTube.

[Alex Ravel]

You like that? Now you know where she got it from. And so I was like, oh, man. And that night, I'm like, we gotta fix this thing. And so, okay, day two, day three. It's working. Okay. And so finally got through that first bit. Recording one of the rehearsals dancers are there. All the things. She now does the trick. The rose on fire. Her hand, she's holding fire. And she goes, ah. And drops this thing. Now, it goes without saying, there's a little gimmick in her hand that allows her to hold fire. Okay, she burned her hand. Oh, shit. She drops this thing.

[Cody Sanchez]

You burned Taylor Swift.

[Alex Ravel]

I buy. Indirectly.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, my God, the Internet's coming for you.

[Alex Ravel]

So what happens is she drops this gimmick on the stage on the ground of the rehearsal studio. The floor is on fire. One of the dancers is stomping it out. The playback stops the playback. Everyone's. Oh. And I'm just sitting there going. And I'm like, they're gonna fire me. They're gonna fire me. And so now there's like, 30 people surrounding Taylor. And I hear Alex. I'm like, oh, my gosh. She's like, alex, did you. And I kind of walk into the circle? And I'm like, oh, my gosh they're gonna fire me. She goes, did you put more lighter fluid on this? Because it was so much more hot that time. Like, it was really hot, not like the other time. And I'm like, they're gonna. They're gonna cut this because it didn't work the other day. Now it's working. Now she burn her hand. Like, they're gonna pull this. So first I said, are you okay, number one? Are you okay? Like, physically? Let me see your hand. Like, I want every. You're fine. Do you need attention? Do you need medical assistant? What do you need? She goes, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. I said, okay. And since I knew they were going to pull, they're going to cut it, I cut it. So I was like, first of all, you know, you're holding this incorrectly. There's a lot going on, and you need to hold it this way like I told you to, but you have a lot going on. This is. This is really too difficult for you. I said, we need to give you something easier that you can do because you're having a lot of trouble with this. It's just a little too hard, and maybe something easier is better for you. So we could do something easier. We'll cut this. We'll do something else. And if you tell somebody who is that accomplished and that amazing and that talented, this is too hard for you. And she goes, no, I could do it. I go, I don't know. I think this is. We need something easier. We need something definitely easier for you because this is too much. Well, as opposed to them pulling it and me losing the gig. I did. Why? Well, it shifts the frame of what's going on. So then she says, no, now I could do it. Everybody leaves. You know, they go, let's take 15. And they all leave. And then, like, you know, choreographer and director comes thinking, what is going on? And I said, look, she knows her song. It's a hit. She doesn't need to practice that. She knows the choreography. The dancer knows the choreography. She's just not focused on this because she has so many other things going on. And so everybody left. And for probably two days, for an hour, two hours a day, it was like me, Taylor, and Chris just rehearsing this. It was just the three of us. They released everybody. I said, you need to get everybody away. We just need to drill this. And so they did. And so what ends up happening is I said to her, I said, you need to do everything with intention. Everything with intention. And so we rehearsed it. It worked great that night. Probably. If you want to talk about nerves, the most nervous I ever been in my career was like this. Because, like, I'm not doing it. I can't do anything. And so Taylor, they had her in this, like, table, and they're flying her up, like, 20ft in the air. And I have this rose and I preset it. They're like, you need to clear the stage. I was like, no. I said, I'm the last person off this stage. You have a problem, talk to her like, you know, I need to set this. It is so exact. And so, like, I'm waiting there and she's like, ready to go. It's like, right? Pitbull's like, all right, welcome to the. You know. And I'm sitting there on stage and I go, taylor. And she looked at me. She goes, with intention, with intention, with intention. And I go, oh, my gosh, you're amazing. I was like, you know, it's an honor to work with you. You know, you deserve everything you have. You're going to kill it. Amazing. She goes, oh, my gosh. And so, you know, she did it. It went great. People loved it. And. But. But those are examples of how to take a situation and own it, right? But it does take a certain skill to be able to do that quickly, be able to anticipate what the other person, be it a seller or some of your negotiations with what they're anticipating, what they're thinking. See, because in magic, the best way to fool you is know everything that you're thinking. See, if I know what you're thinking, I know how to fool you because I know what you're suspecting. So magicians have clever ways to create a reality, a perceived reality, for their audience to be forced to think a certain way, right? And so that way, once I take you down that path, I lead you down that rabbit hole. I know. Well, I can fool you this way because I already know what you're thinking. And so it's anticipating what a seller or someone, whoever you're negotiating with, is going to object to. A lot of my contract, a lot of my contract negotiations with the casinos or different producers or promoters in shows. Whenever we're in the negotiation, I always anticipate all of the oppositions. So, like, I want more money. Well, I'm not going to present why I want more money. I'm going to present and prepare based off of why are all the reasons they're going to say no to that. So if I know all their counter Arguments, then I'm better prepared to them. You know, it's just like knowing, oh, my gosh, I just forgot the book with Chris Voss. Well, Chris Foss, but it's the. Oh, my gosh. Not just blanks.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's not. Never split the difference. Okay.

[Alex Ravel]

No, I love that book. That's great. But it was Art of War.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, yeah. Sun Tzu.

[Alex Ravel]

Sun Tzu, right. Art of War, right. Is that know the enemy, know the oppositions first before you present your case. I learned this in speech and debate when I was in high school. The best class ever took creative communications. And so it was me presenting all their oppositions, knocking them off, because most people are always playing, you know, offense. And they're going, well, this is why I'm right. This is why I'm right. This is why I'm right. So one of my negotiations with a promoter for a casino one time looked like this is that. I said, okay. And I learned as I came in and I said, this is. This is what I want X amount. And they were like, no. They just said flat out. They go, no. But I was prepared. I go, well, you're thinking that you're going to pay that. No, you're not going to pay that. I don't want to take money out of your pocket. That's not what we're gonna do. This is how we're gonna structure. This is how we're actually gonna do the ticket prices. These are gonna be the levels. These are gonna. How it's gonna be. And based off of ticket sales, based off of our sales reports, based off of this many the years that we have and the volume of whatever the seasonality. Like, I did all the calculations and I said, and this is without, you know, any growth. And we already saw like a 17% growth in ticket sales from year one to year two. So essentially, I'll get what I want. And I just made you X amount more dollars, so I don't want you to pay for that for me. Now what I learned is I need to lead with that rather than just saying what I want right away. Because I said, this is what I want, and they're immediately turned off. Then I addressed them and they're already.

[Cody Sanchez]

In that dug in to their position, right?

[Alex Ravel]

And what I should have done is saying, hey, here's the idea that I think will make us both happy if we do this. Da, da, da, da, da. Essentially, I'll make this and you'll make that. That's the better way I should have done it. But that was A learning curve. And I did that when I was like 26, you know, and that was like really an early on negotiation. One of the first negotiations I had with a promoter and a residency. And so those things, you know, you've.

[Cody Sanchez]

Lived such a fascinating life. What question have I not asked you that you think I should. What story should I be asking for that I haven't asked you about?

[Alex Ravel]

Well, I love the idea of Masogi. And you talked about this a lot, right? It's this Japanese, this idea, this cultural idea that says you need to do something that's really difficult and challenging for you every year. Something that the probability of you failing is high, maybe 49%, maybe 10, but. But it's possible that you're not going to be able to accomplish this goal. And I started doing this years ago and I didn't without realizing it because I never heard of that. And then someone brought it up and I go, oh, my gosh. Fascinating. And something that I did a couple years ago was the most difficult and challenging stunt of my career. I did an escape called cold shock. 100 pound weighted vest was chained and shackled to my body. I was then dropped into 39 degree ice water. And I had to hold my breath in the ice water and pick three locks, remove the locks, remove the vest underwater, and then come back up to breathe again. And originally my idea was I'm gonna fake it. I'm gonna get some fake ice. You know, we'll gimmick the thermometer, whatever. Because I've done. I've done underwater escapes. We're going to live stream it. Like, we'll just fake it, right? And then as I looked into it, as I looked into it, it's like, well, fake ice, it's acrylic. It sinks, it doesn't float. Oh, okay. So I went to a movie production house in Burbank that was like Urban Eisen and they like did all of the movies that. Pirates of the Caribbean, 007, any ice and snow thing. This is the company I was like, so I want to do this set. And then he's like, well, you can get this paraffin wax and set it, dress it up like this. Or oh, here's this really good stuff that looks exactly like ice, but it was like rubber. I go, but the problem with that is that it doesn't sound. Because it's rubber. And then also it kind of disintegrates.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh.

[Alex Ravel]

I go, this is going to cost me how much money to do this thing? And I'm just thinking, about this, because I had this idea, like, what if. An underwater escape. What if, like, the least. The easiest part of the underwater escape is holding your breath underwater, right? Because everybody's like, oh, my gosh, you're underwater for two minutes, three minutes, whatever it is. What if? That's the easy part. So I thought, this cold. This ice water challenge, and I spoke with some guys, and they said, I've never heard anybody doing this before. So I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna fake it. And then I realized, I think I have to do this. And I remember telling my friend Jim, and I said, I think I have to train for this. And he said, you're kidding. I was like, no, I really think I have to train for this. And I'd been doing underwater escapes, like I said, for years. But the cold exposure, I started training, and it took. I trained for about 10 months. And I used Wim Hof breathing techniques. But Wim Hof isn't good for breath holds. Wim Hof is typical.

[Cody Sanchez]

Really bad for breath holds.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so I actually contacted a. Like, a level three Wim Hof. He was near me in Lake Tahoe, and I told him what I wanted to do, and he turned me down because I said, I just want to train with you. He goes, what are you doing? I go, I want to do it for this. He goes, no, and refused to work with me. And I'm like, bro. Like, I just need the cold exposure. I'm going to do free diving techniques, which is different for the breath hold, but the cold exposure, I need these. He just. Nope. And I was like, am I crazy? Like. And what ends up happening is I do the stunt. We live stream it. It's on YouTube somewhere. And somewhere it's on my channel. It's on YouTube. And. And I was underwater for.

[Cody Sanchez]

We'll link it on the YouTube video.

[Alex Ravel]

I was underwater a little over two minutes. But the point of this was so many people asked me, why are you doing this? Like, what? What's the point? And the most obvious answer is to say, well, marketing, publicity, right? I'm doing a stunt to get some eyes. It's like, that's not why I was doing it. The reason why I did it is because I had this idea in my head, and I thought, I have to try this. I have to do this. And I actually secretly love when people go, you can't do that. Right? There's no way. Why would you do that? That's crazy. You're going to be tired. You're this something I always said, even when I was on circus and I was working and I was performing and three show days doing all these things, and people go, are you tired? I say, not yet. I said, not yet. There's a time to be tired. It doesn't mean I don't rest. But that was the whole idea. And so I did Cold Shock because I couldn't not do it right. And if I had any life philosophy, it would be this. I wake up. Literally, I wake up every day thinking the greatest thing that I'm gonna accomplish in my life, I haven't even done yet. And if you live that way with that excitement, that enthusiasm, you're like, I wonder what I'm going to do now. Oh, man, I'm super stoked. Right? You're launching a book, and you're like, my book's about to come out right now. All the focus, and you're so excited. And one day, this big book launch that you're about to release, Main Street Millionaire, right. Is going to be one of the least of your credits.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. Isn't that cool?

[Alex Ravel]

How cool is that? So I don't even. Like, you just said, like, I didn't even know you did Ringling. I was like, I don't even credit that anymore because I've done. But yet it was huge.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. It's not on the first pitch of the resume.

[Alex Ravel]

It's not the first page resume.

[Cody Sanchez]

And so I love that idea because you have a resume so long that the first page is almost.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, it's.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's only your last couple years.

[Alex Ravel]

Right. And that's only comes from pushing, I think.

[Cody Sanchez]

Could you have died doing that stunt?

[Alex Ravel]

So what end up happening? Well, I wouldn't have died because I had paramedics there. So we set it up. But I did speak.

[Cody Sanchez]

What do you mean you wouldn't have died? Like, couldn't you have drowned and they couldn't have gotten you out fast enough?

[Alex Ravel]

No, no, no, no. You're not going to drown that fast. That.

[Cody Sanchez]

No.

[Alex Ravel]

What would have happened here was that the biggest challenge was that when you're in that cold of water, you have about anywhere from two to five minutes before all of the blood leaves your extremities and covers your vital organs. So the most difficult part wasn't a race to see how long I could hold my breath and get out the race and the challenge came. How long is it going to take until I start losing mobility in my extremities fast?

[Cody Sanchez]

Because you got to use your little fingers. Right.

[Alex Ravel]

So the first Time I rehearsed what we did is we had the water level about to my eyebrow level. And so if I ran into trouble, I could just lift my head up and breathe. And so I had a safety partner training with me. All of all through training, my brother in law, Blake was there and he was amazing guy. He's like, Chris, dude. Like, they would be best friends. And so Blake was there and it was so cold and immediate that I couldn't feel the keyhole. To put the pick inside the keyhole. And I had this big weighted vest on and I couldn't feel it. So I'm under there and I start panicking because I'm just like, wait, I can't even. I can't even begin. I can't even start. And I lift my head up and I go, get me out of here. And like, we have video one of the training. Like, he literally, you know, he's a big guy and so he's literally. And he's like lifting me out of this tank of ice water. And I'm like, I can't feel anything. And so I had to change and adapt the tank. And that was something that I wasn't expecting. I was like, okay, it's going to be cold. I need to be able to. And also ice floats. And so the coldest part of the entire tank was concentrated around my head.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, God.

[Alex Ravel]

So you basically put an ice pack on your head, but it's literally ice on my skin. And so.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, that feels awful because that's for like 30 seconds. You could barely handle.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was underwater for a little over two minutes. I think it was like 215 or 220, something like that. And so I had to adjust that. But that was something I wasn't accounting for. And I think the stunt was cool and all. But if there's a video of the training, the training video is actually more interesting than the stunt, if I'm being honest. And so anyhow, no, I couldn't have died, really, because they could have reached in because there was no lid. Yeah, I wasn't locked in. I was being held down. And so it's like a diver, right? They have weights on them, so if you release the weights, you'll go back up.

[Cody Sanchez]

Okay.

[Alex Ravel]

So it would have been more about making sure that you still had fingers.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, I could feel small, tiny little detail.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

Does your family think you're fucking crazy? Like, when you. When they like, are they like, what, what did we do to Alex when he was a young boy?

[Alex Ravel]

My dad thinks it's great, but he's also very cautious. He's like, okay, be safe. My mom hates it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

She'll. She'll, like, leave, like, if I do the water tank too.

[Cody Sanchez]

I think now, even just being your friend, I'd be like, I like it.

[Alex Ravel]

I don't like it. And she'll, like, leave. Yeah, but. But it goes back to those things where I'm like, I could do this, you know? And I like when people. Part of what fuels me, too is someone going, you can't do that. No one does that. And it's like, I'll almost prove it to you. This might be like, you know, I'm just. Maybe I'm just a little bit stubborn. But it's like, I'll almost prove it to you despite you.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alex Ravel]

You know what I mean?

[Cody Sanchez]

I wasn't gonna do it, but now I really. I've got that same sickness. People are like, why do you keep doing the thing that you do? I'm like, I just think of all the things my haters have ever said, and that just makes me want to be bigger and build more.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah. And that's truly what it is. And people, I'm doing a tour next spring called 50, 50, 50. I'm doing 50 shows in 50 states in 50 days.

[Cody Sanchez]

Okay, that's. I'll take the ice bath.

[Alex Ravel]

Honestly, for the love of all that's holy, I did. I did a few years ago when I turned 35, a tour called 35 and 35. It was the same idea. 35 shows, 35 days, 35 different cities. And I was like, that was cool. Like my bird. I was like, I'm gonna do this thing. And then as soon as I came up with that five years ago almost, I was like, yeah, be cool. 50, 50, 50. And I was like, how? Aw, man. Now I gotta do it. So if I had the idea, I gotta do it. And I've told people this, and they go, that's insane. 50 states in 50 days. And I'm like, people could do that. And there are people who've done, like, marathons like that. There are people who have done, like, bike rides in all states and all these things. And it's like, why not? Why? Why them? Why can't I be that person? Why can't you be that person? Why can't you be that person? You have something in mind. Do it. Yeah, you're right. Do it. Like, because, again, the greatest thing you're going to do in life, you haven't done yet. You haven't even done. So. How exciting is that? Yep.

[Cody Sanchez]

Reason to keep living. All right, Alex, Ramone, you're the man. Should we do a little magic?

[Alex Ravel]

Okay, you wanna. Okay, you wanna do it? We didn't even do a trick.

[Cody Sanchez]

We have one. We have to do one trick. We have to.

[Alex Ravel]

I think we're both long winded, so. We could be here all day.

[Cody Sanchez]

I'm enjoying myself, honestly. It's not for them. It's for me.

[Alex Ravel]

Let's do something.

[Cody Sanchez]

What do you think?

[Alex Ravel]

Okay. And we talk a lot about magic. Okay. We talk a lot about influence. Suggestions? Okay, I have a deck of cards here. And I want you to think of a card and a deck of cards. But don't think of just the suit. Okay? Think of the value, more importantly the value. Ace, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Jack, Queen, King. Just the value. Okay, I'm gonna try and suggest something to you with this value. I want you to think of a card that is an important card. Maybe powerful, something strong, something like this. Okay? But it could be any value you want. You could choose the two if you wanted, but something that you feel is a strong card that you're connected to. Okay. Do you have that value?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

You do? Okay. And what is that value?

[Cody Sanchez]

King.

[Alex Ravel]

The king. The king. Not the ace.

[Cody Sanchez]

I thought about the ace, too.

[Alex Ravel]

You thought about the ace, but why not the ace and the king?

[Cody Sanchez]

Because he said powerful, so I thought maybe it should be the king.

[Alex Ravel]

Do you play cards?

[Cody Sanchez]

No.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, it would be awful at poker.

[Cody Sanchez]

Because that's not the highest value.

[Alex Ravel]

Yeah, that's not the highest value. So. Okay, a king. Okay, now what. What suit would go with that? King.

[Cody Sanchez]

Spades.

[Alex Ravel]

King of spades.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

You could have chose the ace of spades, but.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, the ace of spades.

[Alex Ravel]

No, no, no, it's okay. Look, here's the deal. I was trying to suggest to you something.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Alex Ravel]

And obviously I didn't do a good job because I said powerful cards. And I was just hoping you would have said, like, an ace. Okay, I thought about an ace. So you thought about the ace. No. Well, what I did is I put all four aces face up. So in case any suit that you said I was ready to go. Okay, let's say I was suggesting that that's the ace of diamonds, and you said the king of spades. So you could have said any ace at all. The most powerful cards. And you didn't because I don't know.

[Cody Sanchez]

How to play cards.

[Alex Ravel]

Well, you're not easily suggestible.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, really?

[Alex Ravel]

Or Are you? Probably because these four aces I turned face up in the deck, but they came from a different pack. They came from a red deck of cards, and I wrote on them. I wrote the.

[Cody Sanchez]

Get out of town.

[Alex Ravel]

Of.

[Cody Sanchez]

Get out of town. What? I was so nervous that I fucked up the magic trick, you know, this is my.

[Alex Ravel]

So are you. Is it easy to negotiate with Cody Sanchez?

[Cody Sanchez]

Apparently, yes. Remind me to never do a deal with you. God, that's so cool.

[Alex Ravel]

I always come with a gift for you.

[Cody Sanchez]

Here's the best. Don't do that.

[Alex Ravel]

No, I have something. And I just notice on your stories that right now, choose your heart is like what people are really resonating with, right? And because of that, I think getting a little. Choose your hard gym towel.

[Cody Sanchez]

This is sick.

[Alex Ravel]

Choose your hard gym towel.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, this is a way to go. So we clips on in my gym bag.

[Alex Ravel]

It clips on your gym bag. We got a little, like, you know, contrarian thinking. Atlas Man. Choose your heart, dude.

[Cody Sanchez]

I'm into this. Tell us in the YouTube comments if you guys think we should make merchandise with choose your hard and if you guys want one.