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- [00:00]
A
When people feel like they know you and you just open up to everybody, then you just gave them the green light to take advantage of you.
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Today I've got Evie Pomporas. She's not just a former Secret Service agent who protected four presidents and tons of dignitaries. She's a master of influence, lie detection and psychological strength.
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Nice. People can screw you over. Everyone's on their own journey for their own self interest and along the way they may burn you.
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And she is going to teach you today how to stop getting played in business, relationships and life.
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A
If you struggle with people and they take advantage of you, stop talking a lot.
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B
If you've ever wanted to read people like a pro, speak with power or walk into any room and own it, this is your episode.
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A
Once you set the tone for people on how to treat you, it's done. It's so done.
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B
You have been with the biggest leaders in the world, right? 10 or 12 years with presidents, had.
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A
Them either when they were current or in former. So Ford, before he passed away, I had Bush senior, Bush junior, Obama, Clinton's. I've had everybody but Reagan.
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B
That is wild.
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A
I wanted Reagan. I heard he was a great guy.
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B
Yeah, he seems like a legend having been with these huge world leaders, the best in the world. I'm curious. Yeah. What?
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A
What do you learn when you're in the White House? You're in proximity, so a lot of folks don't know. So you're protecting presidents, current and former. And you're also protecting foreign heads of state. So a lot of folks don't know that when a foreign head of state comes to the United States, they would get Secret Service protection. And the goal is that you don't want foreign heads of state being assassinated on US soil. I grew up in an environment and probably like from my early 20s on being an environment around this type of leadership and without me realizing it, I was getting training. One thing I learned was truly resiliency. I mean, you'd be next to a president. I mean, literally you're standing next to them and the screen's on and it's a network that doesn't like them and is literally just calling them all the names you could think of. And they had to tune that out and either get back up on stage to give a speech or go out there and you would see it or there was one day and I forget what it was, but where all the Congress members would come to the White House and there was a name for it. It's escaping me. And it was a day where the first lady and the President would have to greet them and spend the day with them, but there would be the same members also within there that literally spewed just horrible things about them, and they would have to come and be gracious. And so I really learned how not to engage in conflict unless necessary, or also not even in conflict, but like to decide what was worth engaging in and what's not and what's just this, just to dismiss. Like, what does it matter? So you learn how to deal with people, but with grace in class. That was one thing I learned. The other thing that I thought was really smart that they did, it was always a circle of people around them. So they created a buffer. So even though there's negative things in chaos going around you, which there always is, you have a select group of people that you've selected. They've gone through your filter system. A lot of them were loyal people. And that buffer of people kept them clear, calm, and they were almost like a barrier to the outside world. So I learned having layers of zones of people, you have your innermost zone. There's not one circle, it's multiple circles. So it's, you've got your intimate circle, which is your people, where there's very high level of trust. You've got an outer zone where it's friendly but not complete trust. I'll give you some trust. Then there's the acquaintance zone, where you want to network and deal with these people, or you have to outer circle where these are people just like looking to just devour you, but you still have to deal with them. So it's almost like these co centric zones. And so I learned watching that I didn't realize it till actually the most recent years when people were like, why do you do that? And I kept thinking, well, why wouldn't I do that? I got into the Secret Service 23. So I was exposed to that from a young age and absorbed it. So you learn a lot from the way people carry themselves and you absorb that. So just because I happen to be around them, I absorb those characteristics.
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B
It seems like everybody thinks that authenticity and vulnerability and sharing is the best trait one can have. You know, let me share everything. Let me overshare everything. Let me be authentic by sharing everything. We've kind of forgotten that humans can have good intentions and bad intentions, and you have to guard a little bit what you share publicly. And so I love the idea of, like, who are your close friends? And you don't have to treat everybody the exact same. You can Treat people kindly everywhere, but you don't have to let everybody in. And I've certainly found that being more public now, and I'm sure you have, too, in the beginning, I was like, everybody's my buddy. Then later I realized, like, oh, no, they're just really charismatic. Like, we're not friends. That's just. That's their job, is to, like, make me feel like I'm their friend. And I think a lot of the world around us is like that. And so, you know, I'd be curious, your take on. Do you think that being authentic and vulnerable all the time is good and that's what you should do?
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A
No. This whole vulnerable thing, I always hear it. Here's the problem with that. If I'm going to share something with you, it should be truthful and it should be done genuinely. Like, don't give me a story because you're trying to get me to put my guard down. How about you just be a genuine person? How about you just be truthful, respectful, and professional and let things happen on their own, organically? And this authentic thing. So that's another thing. Probably the worst person, Cody, to ask these questions. I do. I just, you know, I want to be transparent and honest with people because I feel like they're given things to do and it does not work, and it sabotages their efforts, and then they're kind of at a loss. I don't understand why I'm having problems with people. I don't understand why I don't have better relationships. So being authentic, first of all, what does that mean? Just be genuine. It's not. I think what people think authentic means is I'm going to come in, I'm going to be me and whoever likes it. You need to bring different versions of you to different conversations and to different people. I'm in business now. You and I were talking a little bit off camera. And when I work with people or have people work with me, I want the business version of you. I don't want the version of you that comes in. Evie, I need advice. I don't mind from time to time, but I'm running a business, so if you come in authentically, like, I'm having a horrible day. Evie, I need this. I need that. I'm truly sorry to hear that, but that doesn't work with the business version of me. I can't get things done. So I need this professional, strong version of you to show up for me. That's. That's where this authentic thing leads people. And I do A lot of keynotes. By. By mistake, I kind of happen to stumble to doing keynotes for big companies. And I mean, like Fortune 100 companies and one. I'm putting it out there, everybody. So they know one of the biggest complaints they have is we. We're getting people in who have a weak work ethic who are bringing versions on themselves. That is not helping the whole mission of the company that we're having difficult time keeping people, finding the right people, then bringing people who will blend into our culture and make it strong. And there's this heightened level of weakness that's coming out. I'm also an adjunct professor. I see it with my students. They are shocked when I hold them accountable for an assignment. They are shocked when I won't accept a late assignment. Shocked. And I'm like, why would I accept it? It's. I gave you outlines. I gave you parameters. I made it very clear to you day one, during our interview together before you came to my class, because it's like a job interview, whether you should stay in my class or not. What I expect. But they're surprised when I hold them accountable to what I told you I expect.
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B
That's wild. I mean, I believe it because people.
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A
Say, I expect this of you, but then I do this. So then what we do is we groom people. I may tell you why I want this from you, but my behavior says, okay, I know the syllabus says don't hand this late and that I won't accept it. And, you know, I know I told you on the first day that don't bother handing in a late assignment. But then when you do come to me with a late assignment, then I break, and I'm like, okay, give it to me. I did. I'm the problem. Yeah, I'm the problem. And I'm also not guiding you for the outside world to be your best.
- [09:00]
B
I think I heard you say somewhere, and I really liked it, that, you know, a boundary is something that you actually hold. Otherwise, you're just talking. And I love this. It's like in this world, if you don't keep your promises to yourself, and if you don't keep the promises that you say you will out loud to another, that's probably the worst promise you could break, you know?
- [09:18]
A
Well, you get mad at yourself, too. And that's when people walk all over you, and it's a common thing. People come to me. This person keeps doing this to me. And I'm always like, you realize you play a role. It's not to be I'm not being mean. It's like. And I'm not blaming you. It's like, you have to always be like, what am I doing that's causing this? Every time I struggle with something or someone, I always go back in, okay, what am I doing that's helping contribute to this circumstance, to this situation, to this environment? So I may not be the whole solution, because it's always 50%, 50% me, 50% you. But I'm going to manage my 50, and I have to. I have to be honest with myself. You know, in US Culture, we minimize the things we do wrong. I'm an adjunct professor in psychology, so I'll share a little bit of, like, what I've learned from the different cultures, where if you look at an Asian culture, they're very much more about community and doing the right things for the whole community. And if they do something wrong, they will look at, what did I do wrong? And how can I change this? Or a little bit more. Honestly, in. In US Culture, Western culture, we minimize our shortfalls. We like to minimize them. And so you want to find a balance. Like, you don't want to beat yourself up, because I don't think that is healthy. But I think we've gone to a. To a point where we're so extreme, it's not my fault. It's this thing's fault. It's that thing's fault. And again, you can do that. It. It doesn't serve you. And I think it creates problems for you and struggles for you that you help to cultivate.
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B
Yeah. So what would the solution be for somebody who maybe says, I'm typically a victim and, you know, this keeps happening to me. I keep having this. I wish it would change. What are. What are the words? You tell them. You say, sit down. Do X, Y, and Z. You say, keep your promises to yourself. What is the tactical next move to break that habit of blaming everybody else?
- [11:15]
A
Well, the first move is to stop. Stop saying that to yourself. It's the words you feed your mind. It's like you're feeding it to your mind. Just, I'm not a victim. I've never used that word in my life. And I, like everybody else, have gone through my share of difficulties and hardships. And again, it varies. You know, what. The. What bad thing I go through varies compared to other people. Like, my bad thing may be very bad for me, but for somebody else, it's like, meh, right? Or. Or. Or vice versa. But stop talk. Change the way you talk to yourself. So this I'm a victim. Get rid of that. No, you're not. You're nobody's prey. You're nobody's prey. I am nobody's prey. Change that tone in your head. It always starts first with the way you speak to yourself and the way you groom your mind to think of yourself. One of the things that helped me a lot is I learned to read people well. So now you. You would say to me, well, that's. You have an unfair training, and you are an interviewer, investigator. You don't need all that. You really just need to be less talkative. If you struggle with people a lot and they take advantage of you, stop talking a lot. So there's a couple of reasons why. One reason is I want you to gather intelligence. You got to think of it like you're an intel gatherer. So when you're talking, you're not gathering anything. You're gathering zero. So you want to get good read on them. Let them reveal. Give people space to reveal themselves. So that's one. So now I'm reading you, getting you. I always reflect back. I'm like a mirror. Tell me about that. Oh, no kidding. Tell me about you. Especially if I'm in the dark with something. So that's one. The other thing is, when you're talking, it's very hard to read people. It's a high cognitive load. So the more quiet you can be, the better you're going to be at picking up cues. And even though you can't articulate what that person did that you don't like, you feel it. You feel it. Just the other day, somebody was telling me about something about someone else, and they're like, I just don't feel right with this person. But I keep engaging them because I can't articulate what the reason is. And I'm like, no, you need to listen to that because you're picking something up. You just may not have the skill set yet to define what that is. That cue or that. The words or tone or whatever that is they're doing that caused this hiccup for you, but you need to follow it. Yeah. Lighten your load. When you go quiet, it's a lower cognitive load. That's why when we did interviewers. Excuse me. Interviews, I was a polygraph examiner with the U.S. secret Service. I never did criminal interviews alone. Never. I always had a partner, and here's why. And we would. We would say, I'm going to be primary, or, you're going to be primary. I'm going to be Secondary. The reason why was because I'm talking to my. My. My person, my subject. I'm. My load is high, so I'm missing things. I'm trying to figure out what to say, how to say it. Read you at the same time, listen to your responses. What should I say next? Oh, oh, no. How should I shape this question? If I follow up with this, Is there an issue here? But this person here who's sitting quietly next to me is picking up all the things that I'm missing. And so what we would do is we actually had chairs with wheels on them. And so these have wheels. So when I would get stuck, I would organically just wheel back. And it was the cue for my secondary to wheel up and jump in. And then they would pick up all the things that I miss and they would say, earlier on, you mentioned this. Could you tell me a little bit about that? That's why being quiet, so powerful, it lightens your load. So if you. If a person feels very overwhelmed or they feel that they're being kind of taken for a ride over and over again, go quiet and really let people reveal themselves. And then the other thing is, don't crush so hard when you meet someone and let's say you really like them. Just don't go all the way in. Don't crush so hard, like. And don't chase the. Like. We like it when people like us. Right. You get the dopamine hit. Who doesn't want to be liked? But the thing is, not everybody is meant to be. Is going to be in alignment and in harmony with you. And so again, they can be nice, but their value system, belief system, agendas in life are different than yours. And that's going to lead to bumps later on. And so you will save yourself some, sometimes a lot of pain and hardship if you don't like so hard.
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B
Yeah, I think the first time I realized that was when I started having business partners and I wasn't very good at picking them. And I would crush too hard, too fast, and then I would feel bad for pulling back. I would have that little flare, that little thing in my stomach where I thought, oof, we're out of alignment and something's off. But we were too far in. Now I'm like, what am I going to do? Pull away. No longer talk to this person. So this whole inner dialogue. And Chris, my husband, said something great to me, which was. He's like, people are hard to conceal over time. And he said, especially, people are hard to conceal in the evening. And I Don't know if this is true, because we should talk about your time with interrogations and lie detections. But he was saying that one of the favorite things that he liked to do when he did his job in the military was he wouldn't ask the hard questions in the morning. You know, when a coffee was happening with a subject that they were interested in, it would typically be in the evening after, like, they were together for a long day. Lots of stuff was happening. They weren't exactly sure, you know, when the next coffee would come, when the next water. And that's when the person would kind of reveal. They'd be tired. It would be hard to keep up a veneer. And I thought that was really clever because, you know, everybody kind of looks better with a fresh cup of coffee. But with. With you in particular. God. Some of your work on interrogation and lie detection I thought was so interesting. I was wondering if you had any stories about a time you caught someone lying and how you could actually tell that they were.
- [17:22]
A
It was an applicant for a job, and he. I was having a hard time passing his polygraph. He was being polygraphed for in the US Secret Service. To be an agent, you have to take a polygraph and pass it it. And it's a hard thing for some people. And so this applicant, who's like a football player, very well liked by everybody, takes his first polygraph. He doesn't feel it. He doesn't pass it. He's what's inconclusive. And I'm asked to come in to give him a fresh face because we would have this rule. You never wanted the same person to interview you a second time. You want a clean face. So this young man in the interview was telling me about. You go through. I can't give too much away. But in the polygraph for the US Secret Service, you ask them what crimes they've committed in life. And most people will tell you, no, I've never done anything. Well, I get very specific and granular, and I go through each crime, and often people like, no, I've never been arrested. And I was like, that's not what I asked you. You can commit a crime and get away with it. In fact, in the US the data shows 80% of crime goes unsolved. We have a lot of crime. So as I'm speaking to him, somehow, without getting too much in the weeds, he started to reveal to me a date. He went on a young woman with a woman while he was in college and that he had been intimate with her. But Then after the fact, she left very upset. So I hear this, and I'm okay, this is bothering him. Why? And I had him talk me through the date, and then I had them talk me carefully. She was very upset, she was crying. She. How she left. And without him saying rape, he described to me what would be considered a rape. So he never said it, but what he did is he gave admissions. I held her wrists down. She said it hurt. She was crying, she left in tears. And there were other things. He shared all these things together. When you put them together, paint that picture of this is what he did to her. And so that's how I knew what he had done. So actually, I never. I can't recall at the moment. I don't think I even pollied him. I got all the admissions, and I knew in that moment, I'm like, he can't. It's not going to happen for him, you know, and. Nice guy. Very nice guy. He seemed super nice in the chair, but you could see he's having this moment of looking back and thinking, what did I do? But he's telling me the story through his lens. Yeah, through his lens. He's like, well, you know, she. And she said no. I'm like, how many times did she say no? She said no the whole time. And so all these different pieces. And that would be. Those are very good examples of don't wait for people to tell you, I did this or I did that. They give you what's called admissions, and they're little peaks behind the veil to show you. But what you have to do and what I learned to do, and I still do, is when they give you a little peek, ask them a question that helps the curtain get pulled back a little bit more. Don't just let it go. So, like, what I did with him was. Okay. When you held her wrists, what did she say? Okay, when do you. And you. I would always use the words they would give me. So never in that interview did I say the word rape or that you violated her. I used to his words because it made him more comfortable to say more. I. I reflected back. It's called reflecting language. And it's something you can use with anybody because it makes people feel a little bit more that you're in harmony with them. So when you speak to me, I'll reflect language you use back to show you I'm listening to you. And admissions are powerful. Everyone's always look for the confession. And whatever somebody does to you, I want him to tell me he did this. Or she did that, or they stole that money or they cheated on me. You don't need that. You need the admissions to put a picture together. You don't need to be right. And they don't even need to know that you know, it's for you to know so that you can make sound decisions for yourself.
- [21:56]
B
Yeah. Because you're right. A lot of times people these days will say, um, I need them to fully admit it. I need. I need to get through this and I'll be fully healed. When they say this, you will never be.
- [22:08]
A
You will not be fully healed. It. Because there's no such. There's no such thing as being fully healed. You recover and you become resilient and you bounce back. I believe in that and I. You can take what's happened to you. But if you're looking to heal, by the time you heal, if you're even able to, like, the next slap in the face is gonna come and then the next slap in the face, so you're spending your whole life healing. It's just going to be. You know, life is a revolving door of just people that are going to come in your life, and some of them are going to be knuckleheads, and they're just going to, like, hit you and crush you, knock you down. And you just have to become resilient and push back. So I don't. I think people also. This whole heal thing, it's not fair to people because I also know a lot of people that think something's wrong with me because I can't fully heal from what happened to. To my. To me. And sometimes the stories are so egregious where I'm like, how could you ever fully heal from that? I appreciate the obstacles that I've gone through. I'm not saying they don't hurt, but all I'm saying is it's not fair to tell people fully heal, and then. Then people feel inadequate because they can't fully heal. You don't need to heal to be resilient. Those two things are not the same thing.
- [23:28]
B
Yeah. And I mean, you have been through some serious things. I mean, you were on scene at 911 by the World Trade Centers as far as I read online. And not only were you there and chose to run towards explosions, but it kind of was happening all around you. So it's. Many people could have been through something like that and said, I'm a victim and this is what happened to me. And I could remember all that. And still you chose not to do that.
- [23:57]
A
Here's the thing. When you relive a bad experience or even a bad fight or bad anything, it's rumination. Right. And again, I'm going to go back to my psychology teaching as an adjunct. When you ruminate over something, you notice how sometimes it can be addicting. Yeah, it actually gives you the same high. It actually activates the same part of the brain that gets activated when you do coke. And it almost creates activates that part of the brain. And so for folks to hear that, it's like, no. Like that's why you kind of get almost like sort of addicted to like playing this record. Playing this record. And if you seek therapy, there's nothing wrong with it. There's some people that really genuinely need it. I always tell people, go find somebody who's helping you move forward, not retell your pain. I actually had dinner the other night with a woman and she had been years ago here in New York City. There was a Long island railroad shooting. And he, there was a man, a gunman who opened fire on people on the Long island railroad. It was many, many years ago. And she and I were talking because I used to intern for woman In Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy. And McCarthy's husband was on that train. He was killed her, her son was shot and he was paralyzed. And the woman I happened to be having dinner with, unbeknownst to me, it was a group dinner, says, you know, I know Carolyn. And I said, how do you know her? She said, because I was on that train, I was shot twice. And I said, you know, I'm very sorry to hear that. I'm glad you're okay. And we started talking and she used to tell me, you know, every year we had this dinner and get together and she said, I stayed stopped going. I said, why? She's like, I didn't want to relive it. She's like, it wasn't helping me to relive something horrible that happened to me. She's like, I wanted to let it.
- [25:46]
B
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- [26:40]
A
To me, by mistake.
- [26:42]
B
Like, I think about you because you were a police woman.
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A
I started in the NYPD as a recruit. Yes.
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B
And so you also kind of would sit across the table from criminals and from predators and from what I would anticipate as scary people. What are people predators actually? Like, what are criminals like?
- [27:01]
A
You would think for the most part that these were just like apex predators, or they would look like it, and they didn't. I remember one interview I did, it was a father. He had three kids, and there had been. I want to be careful. I say it because it's delicate. But basically child pornography on his devices. And the police needed help understanding what was going on. I interview him. What he ended up doing is he looked like nothing. Like, he looked like 160 pounds soaking wet, maybe lighter. I thought I was like, I could take you, and I'm, you know. But when he walked into the room, you would. I was always surprised to see, would walk in the room and like, what he used to do, which was clever, which a lot of them do, he used his kids to get them to bring other kids to their home, and they would go downstairs in the Bay Mitzman, and he would shoot videos with all these little kids. And so you would think, when I tell you that you're waiting for this, like, apex predator to walk in, that looks it. You would never pick him out. In fact, he looked like somebody who would be bullied. And that's why I always caution people, like bad people, and I. I always be careful with that word. Like you. It's not about what people look like. You don't know what's in some inside someone. You know, we had this saying in. In the polygraph in the interview room, like, anybody is capable of anything at any given moment in time if given the opportunity.
- [28:36]
B
Wow.
- [28:37]
A
So what I would. The way to protect yourself without being cynical. It's not about being cynical, is assess people's behavior. That's why you can't look at someone. I always say, don't label the person. Like, labels are for clothing Label the behavior and, like, be quiet and give people time to see what they're about and they will reveal it. But people who pray don't look like prey. And you know what's also interesting? What I learned. Learned about predators. Do you know what they prey on? Kids. Number one, because they're easy to prey on women. Number two, because as much as I may not want to say it, but it's just the truth. Physically, biologically, like, we are, in a sense, the other gender, male gender, is just physically stronger than us. So they can, to some degree overpower us. Depends, you know, not everybody, but for the most part. So there's that physical thing there, and then the elderly. Three populations that are preyed upon the most by predators. So if I tell you that, then what does that tell you about a predator?
- [29:46]
B
Pretty weak.
- [29:47]
A
Exactly. I'm not picking on the guy that's going to give me a run for my money. I want easy prey. So a big part of it is your mindset. Like, if people think. And this is for anybody, it's like, if people feel like you got a little bit of crazy, they're going to think twice.
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B
It's so true.
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A
I'm sorry. It's true. You want people to be like, I'm not telling you to go around being crazy person.
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B
You know, listen to Evie.
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A
But. But I always. You just want people to feel. I. I don't want to cross a line with her or with him or whoever. Just let them feel it. And that has to do with respect. It has to do with the way you carry yourself. It has to do with what you. What you emanate out there.
- [30:32]
B
Yeah, I want to get into that because you have really specific actions on that that you do. And I thought you were going to.
- [30:38]
A
Teach me about business.
- [30:39]
B
Well, I was going to say it does apply to business, too, because there are business predators everywhere.
- [30:44]
A
Yes.
- [30:45]
B
And they also go after the people that look like they're going to fold, you know, And I think there's a lot of reasons why, if you're pretty serious in business, there's a great reason to, like, never settle a case. If somebody comes after you and you think that it's ridicul and they're just trying to be litigious. It's like, no, no, no. I will go and spend much more than it would ever take to settle with you because I refuse to allow this precedent to happen. And I think in business, you have to kind of show that you're really not to be trifled with, and that you're not scared of coming out against somebody because bullies exist in business like everywhere else. In fact, maybe more because a lot of people think that business is a zero sum game and in order for me to win, you have to lose. And so those people can be a whole different type of predator. And if you come out and you. And to be fair, it happens a little bit more to women, I think, than men because they don't. A lot of times I have a couple guys who are very public and big public figures too, and the things that come after them are slightly less than they do me. And so I have had to in some ways come out and really sort of establish myself and say, like, I'm not going to tolerate that. You're using my ip. That's infringement, that's libel. This is, this is your chance to have a lawsuit. I don't care if you post it online about it, it's no problem. And so it's unemotional, but it's like, you know, I kind of, I think I've gotten comfortable enough with it by this idea of like some form of. Not that they're bad people, but just justice in the instance, like if I can handle going after somebody that is operating in a bad manner or in bad faith and I have enough money and I have enough like capacity to deal with it, but I don't just because I don't want to, then there are, they are going to go after the next version of the child, the elderly, the woman. They're going to go after somebody who's like an easier target next. And so I do think as a good business person you have like some responsibility to be like, no, no, no, I'm going to bury you if you act like that. Because we don't allow that in society. They're like repercussions to negative actions. And that's like why we have the society we have. But the part that I was curious about for you is I read somewhere about a study that talked about the way that predators choose their prey and I thought it was so applicable for probably how business predators prey too. Do you remember that study about.
- [32:57]
A
Yeah, there's multiple studies, but essentially like the, anybody who picks prey or even targets, they look at the person, they look who can go easy, they look at, they look for opportunity. And if you give them a pseudo, it's, you know, a suitable target. I have to have a suitable target to pray. Yeah, if I don't have a suitable target, I'm not going to take it. So you you want to think about that, like, am I giving you a suitable target so I can negotiate with you? But in the back of my mind, I'm not a suitable target. So I want to make sure that person feels I'm not a suitable target and I'm with you. I don't really go after. I'm busy. Right, right. I got things going on.
- [33:39]
B
Yeah.
- [33:40]
A
But there may have been like a couple of times where somebody may have crossed into my lane where I'm like, no, that's wrong on principle and I'm going to make sure you know it.
- [33:48]
B
Yeah.
- [33:49]
A
And so even in business. And I agree with you because it's like, no, a hard note. You think you can't do this and think twice. People afraid, they, when they think you're not going to bite back. It's a lot of times we think, like, if I just mitigate, mitigate and just leave it alone, I can control the monster or I can control this person. No, like, when you know somebody is like, not good, the more you pull back, the more dominant they become. You create more space for them to fill. So I do think there's strategy in avoiding conflict. But when you create dynamics where you give this person space, so much space to kind of dominate over you, and then it. And it's. You have to be careful because it can happen incrementally and over time. And then you're in this really subservient role and you're. And you're thinking, how did I get here? Now you can't get out from under it. And businesses like that. Just because there are the behaviors that people may have in crime doesn't mean I have to be a criminal to hurt and prey on people. Yeah, I can manifest that in business. It's a power trip. It's a power trip like serial killers or serial rapists or people that do that stuff. It's a, It's a power trip. They do it because I want power over you. So in business, I hear it all the time when I speak at companies, when they bring me in, I can't tell you. Especially afterward, people will come to me and say, I have this boss or I have this client or I have this and they're being bullied. How do I handle it? Tell me what to do. And a big part of the, the issue that they have is you've created a system around you where you're waiting for these folks to not behave this way because they shouldn't behave this way because you think it's wrong. And I Get. You think it's wrong, but they don't think that they're wrong. They think, what, I'm being like a boss. I'm being this. I'm being the. Like, this is the way it's done. Change the dynamic and system around you so that people aren't crossing over into you. But it becomes hard. It's a hard thing to undo. Like, if you're in a. A business environment, you've been there for years, and people have just been crushing you and dominating you. There's. I want. I don't mean to be negative, but there's almost no way to fix that. You have to leave and go somewhere else and start a new. And start from the beginning. Because once you set the tone for people on how to treat you, it's done. It's so done.
- [36:19]
B
That's fascinating. So let's say that that person who has been sort of beat up and dominated at work goes to a new place, and it's their first day, and it's in their first meeting in the business. How do they show up physically and verbally so that people take them more seriously and, like, put a little respect on their name?
- [36:38]
A
Don't talk a lot in that first meeting. Say nothing. I have the meetings I go to, I say nothing. You don't need to talk. Nobody cares. Like, unless you have something of value to say, you don't need to say anything. Hi, I'm Evie. Thank you for having me here. I'm done. So unless you're contributing, don't talk. Show up. Be serious. Dark colors. I'm not being funny. Just wear dark colors. Wear a suit jacket if they're not. I did something with my. With my husband because he just retired from the Secret Service in Homeland Security. We were doing an event where he was going to. I'm like, come speak with me. He's like, oh, okay. And everybody there at this event was dressed down. And he's like, oh, I don't need to dress up. I said, no, you're going to wear a suit. And I don't point at him when I dress. No, I want you to wear a suit. And no one sees you, but no one's seen you before. And you're going to be on that stage, and I want you to own it. And the fact that you chose to wear a suit shows everybody I respect you and honor you. And I showed up in a suit when everybody else is dressed down. It also says something very powerful about you. And sure enough, afterward, he's like, you were so Right. To make me wear that suit. So I just want you to think, what presence do I bring? And what. What am I trying to emanate? Dark colors. And for ladies, I'm sorry, Drop the pinks, drop the yellows, drop the. I like light colors. But what message am I trying to bring? You know, the day you're showing up is not the day to try that new blue eyeshadow. I'm just being. I want to be honest with people. Because when you show up authentically you and then you're scratching your head, why didn't anyone respect me? It's bring that version of you. When I was an agent, I hardly ever wore my hair down. Hardly ever. Now I wear.
- [38:20]
B
I noticed that about you in videos. A lot of times.
- [38:22]
A
It's up always. And I'm used to it. But even as an agent, I 1 I wanted to be taken more seriously. I had really long blonde hair. There was no way I was gonna cut it. I already, like, really took on very masculine attributes to an extent. So I was like, the hair I'm keeping, you know, when other girls were cutting it off, I'm like, no way. The hair is staying. So I wanted to hold on to that part of my femininity. I don't want to lose it. But it was always up. Because if I showed up like this for an interview, like, hey, you have to just think of what version you're bringing. If I'm doing, like, even to this day, if you're in a room with all male, I'm going to wear pants. Just little things you can do. I'm going to show up. I'm going to sit at the table. My hands are going to be on the table. I'm not going to sit on my hands. Like, I'm five.
- [39:10]
B
Interesting.
- [39:11]
A
So I'm going to. I'm going to sit. I'm going to be here. I'm not going to have my phone on the table. I don't care if everybody else is on their phone. I'm here. I'm alert. You're also telling people I'm alert. I'm watching everything that's going on around me. Forget the whole get off your phone because it's not good for you. Because it's not. Put that aside. I'm here. I see you, and I see you and I see you. My head's on a swivel. I know what's going on. I'm paying attention. You just set the tone. This lady knows what's going on around her or guy.
- [39:39]
B
It's a really good point because you're also very pretty and I think. Thank you. Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, when I was younger and starting out, I did the cut my hair thing, which terrible mistake for me, but wasn't a good look. But I cut it really short because I thought that I wouldn't be taken seriously. I was kind of cute, you know, whatever, little Latina. And I did get taken more seriously because of that. Because immediately, whether we want to admit it or not, good looking. And if we. I like makeup, you like makeup and our, and our hair looks nice and we wear a certain thing, there's an immediate trigger and judgment and then at some point you get to become enough of a pro that you almost have to go the opposite way. Like I don't know if you've ever found this, but I now find that I do. I dress a little bit more feminine now than I ever have before because I come in like a fucking freight train half the time on Internet and it's intimidating, it's not relatable. And so I'm almost opposite that they, they.
- [40:34]
A
The thing with social media and the Internet, people know who you are now before they actually meet you. So they already have an impression of you. And that's where people also need to be careful. The first time they meet you today nowadays is not in person, it's on the Internet. So watch what you post. Yeah, that's just watch what you post, watch what you share. But I do agree with you. So you have that ability now because you've built yourself to that point to show up a little more how you want to show up. When I first started doing the news, you brought up the, to bring up the hair thing again. One of the things I was told was to cut my hair because so I could be taken a little bit more seriously when I did the news and there was a window where I did it, not too much, I did it a little bit, then I started pulling it back and then I just was like, you know, I gave up so much as a. I don't want to say it, but as a woman I let go of so many things when I was an agent. And like my hair thing is just a psychological thing where I'm like, I'm not losing the hair, I'm not losing the makeup. Yeah, I remember one day I was at the White House and we were in what they call the down room and it was like the morning shift where you start at 5am I would wake up at 3am I'd pull my hair back, but I'd wear a nice suit, I'd do my makeup, and I still wanted to hold on to a part of me. And I remember one day, one other female agent walked in that morning. It was like, 5, 6am I can't remember. She's like, why do you bother? She's like, you know, she's like, why do you do that? Like, why do you bother? I remember looking at her, I'm like, well, I bother for me. And if I can't look my best in the White House, where am I going to look my best?
- [42:11]
B
So true. You're like, there's one spot.
- [42:15]
A
And I just didn't want to fall into that space because I would sit, see a lot of females fall into that, where you don't have to sacrifice. I. I don't have to talk like a guy or act like a guy or be a guy to be respected. There's a balance. And so I just. I held on to that part for me. So I'm not going to shop at Joseph A. Banks. Sorry. Joseph A. Banks. From my suit. Because I want to fit in.
- [42:50]
B
Yeah, yeah. You got to draw a line somewhere. But I do think, like, the more you're a pro, the more you get to draw that line. So if you feel like you can't be authentically yourself to come to a job yet, and that is somehow important to you, that you can wear whatever you want, do whatever you want, get better, because the better you are, the more you get away with.
- [43:06]
A
Well, bring your authentic business.
- [43:08]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [43:09]
A
Do you know what I mean? Bring your authentic business self to the job. Yeah, that. That's. That's it. It's. Bring the version of you that resonates at that job, not the version of you that goes clubbing or to the bars or hanging out or to Coachella like that. That version of you, although it's authentic, it. It doesn't go there. Even sometimes my people that work with me or for me, if I have an event, I will. If I know that they don't wear suits a lot or they dress a certain way, I'm like, we're going here. I want a suit.
- [43:40]
B
Yeah.
- [43:41]
A
And I. And they know me. I'm like, it's not that I'm not loving who you are, but we need to adapt to this environment that we're going to. And you're going to bring that version of you.
- [43:50]
B
It's actually a gift to say that to some people when they're younger because, you know, if you want to get Paid like a pro. You should dress like a pro. And thankfully, we both learned that because of your background. I was in finance and investment banking. Like, it just wasn't an option. You wore a suit. That's just what happened. But I think a lot of younger people these days, that's just. The world's changed so much. I mean, I'm not that old, but I had to wear pantyhose. I bet you had to wear stuff like that, too. Like, pantyhose. If I wore a skirt. And. And now, you know, like, I was in the. My office the other day, and there were like two people with like, like six inch crop tops, like, belly buttons showing. And I was like, not today. Not today. Like, listen, we have people come in the office. You got to great looking six pack. But, like, that's not. It's not for here. It's just not appropriate. Like, unless you want my husband coming in in a, you know, crop top. And nobody wants to see that, Harry. You know, like, it's not necessary.
- [44:43]
A
But it's also. Here's the thing. It's also an extension of you, Cody. So if I hire you and you work for me, you're an extension of me, of my brand, of who I am, my ethos. Like, you are, by proximity, tied to me. And so I want the version of you that works best with the brand and culture that I'm trying to create. And if it's not that, then I appreciate your authenticity. But that's not. When you do that, you make it about yourself. So what you're also saying is, I'm not a team player. I just care about me, and I dress for me, and I do me and whoever likes me. And again, you can do that. But you will be isolating yourself from opportunities and from people wanting to bring you in. Like, you want to be adaptable. You know what the key to being powerful in life is and survival? Be adaptable. I can adapt. You throw me anywhere. I will adapt. I will morph, I will blend. I will do. It's still the genuine part of me, but I'm adapting. When I went to Coachella, I look like I was supposed to be in Coachella when I was in the Secret Service, when I went to.
- [45:51]
B
You went to Coachella with the Secret Service?
- [45:53]
A
I went when I was protecting Barbara Bush, which is George Bush's daughter. So I was her assistant detail leader. So I was the person who traveled with her, and I had a team. And so with her, the big thing was because people didn't recognize her when she was with Jenna, they were together. They knew the Bush twins. But when she was alone, she. You couldn't really tell. So to not draw attention to her, we would blend in. So if I'm going to Coachella, I'm not going to show up in my sunglasses and a suit because right then and there, I'm drawing attention to her. So I would dress in a way where I was still tactically sound, but I blended in the environment for safety reasons.
- [46:35]
B
That's fascinating. I'm just trying to picture a bunch of Secret Service issues.
- [46:39]
A
We're at Coachella, and you know what's wild? I think we saw Taylor Swift, and I had no idea who Taylor Swift was. She's like, oh, we're gonna go see Taylor Swift. I said, who? She's like. She's like, what do you. Who? I was like, who's that? She's like, you don't know who that is?
- [46:54]
B
We gotta find this picture of, like all the hot Secret Service agents at Coachella in outfits.
- [46:59]
A
We were. We were backstage. I had no idea who Ms. Swift was. And apparently my protectee was good friends with her. And so, you know, but still, I'm like, wait, we gotta be careful. She's like, it's Taylor. I'm like, I don't care. I don't know. The people around this person start frisky.
- [47:15]
B
And Taylor Swift, that would have been good.
- [47:18]
A
So. But. Well, actually, I've magged quite a few celebrities. I didn't.
- [47:23]
B
What does mag, man?
- [47:24]
A
Magd. So I would run magnetometers over them.
- [47:28]
B
Oh, like.
- [47:30]
A
Yeah, I didn't care. Yeah, I didn't care. I don't know who you are. And just because you're somebody out there, it doesn't mean that you're not capable. I mean, you would have people. Yeah, I would come across all sorts of stuff. I'll leave it at that. So.
- [47:44]
B
Well, and, you know, at the end of the day, only downside for you, like, who cares if you have to Frisco.
- [47:50]
A
I did my job. I don't. You know, my goal was to protect, and it's probably the most powerful person in the world or the people around them. And so I was very thorough.
- [48:00]
B
Yeah. God, it must nicely so annoying how many questions you get asked about this, because I am restraining myself. But do people just ask you the weirdest things about your time in the Secret Service?
- [48:10]
A
They do. You know, when I was an agent, I would lie to people. I never told people what I did. I didn't want to ask questions.
- [48:16]
B
What was your Go to.
- [48:17]
A
I would go to. Was a hairdresser. And the reason was because my mother was a hairdresser. So I grew up around it.
- [48:24]
B
So you can talk the dog.
- [48:25]
A
I knew what it was. I helped her in the salon. Like, I would sweep the hair from the floor. She actually had me shampooing people when I got older. I literally helped. And so I knew how to address people when they ask questions. And when I said that, oh, okay, just went away. Yeah. And nowadays I answer, like, to a point probably, like, your husband, right? Like, totally. It's hard. You want to share things, and then there's a part of you that. There's a humility to it where you don't want to put it out there like that. Like, I share to help. And even if I share stories, I always think I'm not sharing a story to be vulnerable.
- [49:05]
B
Yeah.
- [49:06]
A
If I share a story, I want to make sure that the reason I share this story is adding value or there's a lesson or something I'm trying to share that helps the other person that I'm not just sharing it to share.
- [49:20]
B
Yeah. It's good. Yeah. The worst one, he gets asked is like, how many people have you killed?
- [49:25]
A
Oh, my God. I knew you were going to say that. How many people have you killed?
- [49:27]
B
Yeah. It's happened in front of me a few times. The first time, I was flabbergasted. I'm like, I never. I don't. I have. I don't know. I would never ask that. It's almost like asking an even worse version of body count, you know, like, hey, what's up? How are you? How many people have you slept with? You're like, what? Why would you ever ask somebody stuff like.
- [49:43]
A
That's glorified, you know, if you watch video games, media stuff, it seems like it's not a thing. And it's a horrible, like, you know, I've. I've been asked that really quite. Yeah, quite a few times. Like, who have you killed? Have you killed? Probably not to the extent he has. And it's. I'm like, it's a.
- [50:00]
B
What do you respond?
- [50:01]
A
I don't. Yeah, I don't. I don't. It's just like. It's a part. It's just a dumb question. Like, I don't mean to call people people. It's just a really insensitive thing. Now. I've not been to the theater of war, so my. I have nowhere near, like, that type of exposure experience, but that's like, to take a human life Is like a. It's just like a horrible, horrible thing.
- [50:23]
B
Yeah, of course. And yeah, I mean, people are nuts and will ask all sorts of wild questions, but I do think your. Your. Your change of, like, thank God there are people today that are willing to share some of the experiences that they feel comfortable putting forward, because then we get to learn. We get to learn. And when Chris talks about stuff that he likes to bring up, I get to learn. I learned a ton about leadership from him, you know, but the cool thing. And I bet your husband's the same. I'll hear new stories from him all the time because he doesn't bring it up that much. And he'll be like, yeah, that one time with that Afghan warlord. And I'll be like, I've never heard of this before. What are you talking about? But, yeah, he's kind of silent, you.
- [51:04]
A
Know, I want to say this the way, you know, somebody's really tough or strong, they don't advertise the stuff they've done. The quietest people were the most lethal people. And my husband's like that. Like, he will, like, does. Barely talks about nothing. And, like, he could break you. Like, nothing. And so he's done so many things. So I always respect and admire for anybody you want to know who's tough, it's the guy or gal that doesn't need to tell you how tough they are, because they just are and they know it.
- [51:37]
B
And they often don't dress like it. Like, my husband, if you saw his outfits, I'm like, is this a fourth grader's birthday party? Like, what are we doing today? It's like a tie dye shirt, corduroy shorts, and like, he calls them Jesus.
- [51:50]
A
Sandals because he doesn't care.
- [51:51]
B
He doesn't. He has nothing to prove that dude doesn't care. Yeah. And it kind of goes back to that thing. Like, the better you are, the more things you can get away with and the less you got to project. And so, like, if you don't like where you are today, just keep trying to be better. And then I do feel like you get to assert your will on the world a lot more, you know, and like, one of the other things that I think is really interesting about you, and then I have another friend who has, like, I don't know if I would call it similar background, but Chris Voss, who was in the FBI. And what I always find interesting with Chris is his intonation and how he uses his voice. But I had never met another woman who had done. Because I can't mimic Chris Voss. He's got this crazy, you know, baritone voice. But you have a lot of lessons that you've learned about, like, how do you communicate in order to be respected as a woman? And how does your voice change matter in the way that you respect? I know there's a word for it, but I can't remember what it is.
- [52:42]
A
So it's the term. It's called paralinguistics. So it's what you sound like when you speak. And it's actually truly for both men and women, because some men have high voices, there's a couple of things. So some people organically have a stronger tone, and men typically have a deeper tone. For women, you just want to find your truest, genuine, deepest tone. You know, Hi, I'm Evie. Hi, I'm Evie. So you want to find that tone. And sometimes over the years, you have to think of, like, your voice. It captures things that you've accumulated over your lifetime. Maybe you were in abusive relationships, or you or you had parents saying, be a good girl or don't talk or don't this, doing that. So our voice captures all that stuff. So you're probably your true voice is not your true voice the one you use? So you want to really think about, what do I sound like? I always tell, and I talk about this a lot with companies. When I have people saying, nobody listens to me. And I'll say to them, well, what do you sound like? The majority of communication is not what you say. It's what. What they hear. So listen to your voice. I was lucky in that when I would conduct interviews, I would have to record myself so I would hear my voice. And then when I left and I began doing the news, I had to watch myself and hear myself, which is a really, like, really messes with you. And I even had to step up my game even more. And I actually took voice and speech classes at an acting school. People ask me, what do I do for my voice, and I tell them, hands down, go to acting school. School, take a voice and speech class. One, it'll. They'll teach you to use your voice. They teach you to project your voice, and then they put you in front of other people. And you have to take on roles where you have to use energy and do it in front of other people. And it's a great way to build your confidence. But I learned to use my voice because if I'm talking about an attack or shooting, because I cover national security and law enforcement issues for NBC, I can't sound like this? No, you know, I. I have to draw, strengthen my voice so that the listener can believe that I know what I'm talking about. So that's. Think of your tone. The other thing is project out. So when you're speaking, own what you say. I go back to my college students where I'll. I'll have them ask, you know, I'll ask a question, and I'll say, tell me about, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I'll pick on them. And when they answer, and I'm like, I can't hear you, and I will tell them. I'm like, this is the place to make mistakes. Own your voice. If you're wrong, you're wrong. Nobody cares. And so I always try to, like, please project your voice. It's okay. Like, I'm not telling you to. It just means, like, project means just, like, make sure people can hear you. It's very. Also annoying to the listener. Like, I can't hear you. I don't have time to keep asking you to repeat yourself. Just say it. Let's work together and move on. That's the other part of it, projecting your voice. And then the other thing to think about when you speak is make sure. And this is very dominant today for. For no matter what gender you are, is. Hi, I'm Evie. Hi, I'm here with Cody Sanchez. Hi, I'm Evie. I'm here with Cody Sanchez. I sound. I said the same thing, but I'm speaking different. So you always want to go down when you speak. Those are very simple things to do for your voice.
- [56:24]
B
How. How many people do you think sound on the uptick? Typically, Like, a lot. Is that. Is that a majority? Like, people do not even realize that they sound that way?
- [56:34]
A
No, I think most people speak like that because just. I think it's a generational thing. I think it's just what's dominant in the culture right now. So what I hear, I absorb. My husband sometimes will do it sarcastically in front of our little one, and I tell him, I'm like, please don't do that. I don't even want her mistaking leader start speaking like that. So it does happen. And you'll hear men and women do this. So just things to be conscious of when you speak. So. So if people don't listen to you or if you share an idea, this is another thing I hear in business meetings. I shared this idea, and then nobody paid attention. And then somebody else said it, and everyone paid attention to this person. And my first thing is, what did you sound like when you shared that idea, did you just. You sprinkled it out there like very lightly and then this person took it and they owned it.
- [57:30]
B
Yeah. The other part too is really pondering what you're going to say first. What I find a lot that happens with people who aren't listened to is they talk a lot to your point, they're unstructured in their thoughts. I haven't been as thoughtful about tone, so I'll have to think about that. Yeah, good, thanks. But, but you know, they have this wide ranging concept that they want to have that could have been distilled into three sentences. And so my, that's one of my biggest pet peeves is like, before you come up with your idea, can we make it real brief? Hey, I think that we should start a podcast and I think that we should have a former Secret Service member on it. What do you think about that? Who should we choose? As opposed to like yesterday I was thinking about the fact that we might want to have a podcast with somebody from the Secret Service because like they're super in the news now and maybe what we would. And you're like, I, that's too much. I'm already bored. And so land the plane. Yeah, land the plane.
- [58:27]
A
There's actually, the more, there's science that shows the more verbose you are, the more words you use when you speak, the less credible you appeal you appear. So when you can get to your point with less words, you actually appear more credible.
- [58:45]
B
So do a lot of companies hire you then to teach their teams how to do this too?
- [58:50]
A
No, I don't do it. I, I could, I suppose, but I, I'll do keynotes.
- [58:55]
B
Yeah.
- [58:56]
A
So I'll, I get asked to go to big companies and I'll give a keynote. I don't, I probably, I don't have the between like doing the news and all the different things I do. You could do training, I suppose. Like I do get asked. Yes, I get asked. Can you come train our people and maybe business wise, Cody, you could give me some guidance.
- [59:17]
B
Maybe zero to your keynote.
- [59:19]
A
You know, I can, I can, I can learn how to do that because I am, I work with a lot, a lot of agents too, who you had to master it. A lot of people don't realize like we were liaisons more so than anything. So you had to Aussie liaison for the US government. So when I would go overseas, I would have to bring my best negotiating skills and speaking skills to deal with foreign governments, which often didn't like you. But you had to really monitor how you spoke. I mean, you were a diplomat. And so you would have to be able to deal with conflict, debate, disagree, and speak well without causing problems where the White House is getting a call and like this Agent Pompeurs you sent, she's a disaster. Don't send me somebody else. Like, you didn't want that phone call coming in because you were a hothead or inconsistent or not reliable. It didn't speak well and couldn't negotiate well like you were representing the US Government when you would travel. So one thing in the US Secret Service, because you're dealing, I've probably dealt with maybe a third of the foreign countries in the world. And so it's a big weight because if you say or do the wrong thing, you could really hinder international relations. Even though you're looking at it while you're coming from a security standpoint. No, I'm representing the US Government. So to them I'm like, I might as well just be hanging out in the White House all day with the President, you know, hanging out like his best buddy because I represent him and the country. The other thing too is we would have to negotiate and deal a lot with staff, whether it was White House staff, whether it was other congressional staff. And again, your appearance and demeanor matters. You can't just come in like a thug and bully your way strong, your way in. Like, you had to really bring a very professional, respectful self. And sometimes you would be dealing with very special personalities and you had to be very mindful. I never wanted, and to this day, I don't want to give anybody a reason to say she said this and because she did this or she said that, you know, she's unprofessional. It's like, I, I never wanted to give anybody that gift.
- [61:28]
B
It also is like a power play, I imagine a lot of these negotiations because, yes, it's about security, but it's, oh, no, I want the President to come through this way so that all my people can see him. And I want this to happen over here. And actually my flag should be here and his flag should be there. And I imagine all of that is a negotiation where not only do you have to quote, unquote, win, because you do need to have X happen in order to keep security, but also you can't make them mad. So you have like two bosses there.
- [61:57]
A
Which is, you can't offend them, you can't make them mad. Like, there was a really difficult line to cross. You can't be hot headed, you know, Sometimes it's as simple as I was at one event in one country. They wanted to have a meeting with the president, and this country shows up to where I'm at, and I'm like, I'm not the decider, you know, but you can't go in. So I call White House staff over, and I'm like, hey, this country's here. I'm not gonna say what country. Very. You know that one friend who somehow knows everything about money? Yeah. Now imagine they live in your phone. Say hey to Experian, your big financial friend. It's the app that helps you check your FICO score, find ways to save, and basically feel like a financial genius. And guess what? It's totally free. So go on, download the Experian app. Trust me, having a BFF like this is a total game changer.
- [62:53]
B
What is daddication?
- [62:54]
A
The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariana. We call him Dae Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job. That's dedication.
- [63:16]
B
Find out more@fatherhood.gov brought to you by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.
- [63:23]
A
Trying to find the right word. Very intense country in behavior. Every country had their behavior. And I'm like, come here. They want to meet with the president. Come talk to them. So they send this White House staffer, who's very nice, super nice person, but comes in a little bit mouse, like, very soft. And they literally. The delegates encircled this White House staff member, and the White House staff member was trying very nicely to say, there's no time for him to meet with you today. We can try. And they were very offended by it. How could your president not make time for our president? And it started to turn into, like, they're going to just devour this guy. And I had to step in and say, hey, why don't we calm down and we'll find a resolution? And then it turned on me, and I was just like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. You know? And I told the White House staffer, leave and go. Come back with five. Yeah, but you have to bring strength as well. So that's a really good example of when this White House staffer showed up. All good intention came. Very nice. And you can't show up very nice with this country. This is a country that'll eat you alive. So you want to bring your professionalism, you want to be respectful, but you want to bring that essence. Like, hey, why don't you calm down? You don't need to say it, but you, you exude that strength because then people won't cross that line. Yeah.
- [64:44]
B
Is much of the negotiation that you learned in that job and others like pre preparation, like, almost really, it seems like a lot of the moves you make X situation happens, you take, you don't just really react. You kind of have to take a minute, think about what's the context, who am I combating in some situation and then what's my prep that needs to be done? Like is Most of negotiation 1 and communication 1 in the pre preparation, not the actual like activation. I mean, even your, like, okay, we're going to go in your primary and I'm going to like slide back thing. Rollback, roll back. Right. These all seem very like you're spending a lot of time prepping for almost everything that you're doing. Is that right?
- [65:29]
A
It depends. The more you prep, the better prepared you are, the more confident you are. So over time you do less prep because you know what to do. But anytime for if you're talking interviews, if I did an interview with a partner, we never walked in cold. We sat down, we went through our questions. What are we going to say? Who's going to be primary, who's going to be secondary? What do we think we should ask? How do you think this? We always plan that out. There's something also called predictable dialogue, which means you may go in to do a business pitch and there's different ways it could go. The one could be like, great, I love this, or I want more information or are you joking? This is. Whose idea is this? This is the dumbest thing I ever heard. So predictable dialogue would be. I would prepare dialogue for whichever direction that person went. So I was prepared for whatever direction you went. So if you do a business pitch, for example, I. You don't want to be shocked when they push back and say, I think that this isn't a good idea. Well, how about this or this and that? You come in prepared and so also you're not like, it doesn't feel like a punch in the face when they call you out on something or they push back. So that's predictable dialogue. I will predict the dialogue you're going to have with me so I could have the response to that dialogue. I'm prepared. The Other thing to do, which is really important in business and that we would do is rehearse your opening line. So don't go in and wing it. Please don't. Please don't go in and wing it. Rehearse your. Your. Your opening line and your opening line should differ for each pitch you're doing. Depends who it is. Is it a CEO? A cfo? Is it just a lateral employee? You adapt how your opening line is for the. The entity you have, and then also how. What is their disposition? Are they very strong? So you bring a little bit more strength? Are they a little bit soft or more shy? You bring it down. You want to adapt. It's always adaptability. Who do I have? I adapt. I adapt. That's why that whole authentic thing that you talked about before, it does not work to your advantage. I want you to be an adapter. You would. Who would I have? I'm gonna meet you. What we try to do, what society tells you to do, is make them come to you. You're so special that you make everybody bend to you. You make them you. I. How insecure am I that I need to make everybody come to me? No, no, no, no. I see who you are. I just read you. I understand you. I see what your values are, because I've shut the up and I'm listening, and I read you well, and now I'm going to adapt to you, and I'm going to meet you where you.
- [68:09]
B
Are so much more powerful. I mean, you don't get mad at a chameleon when it changes its color. You're not like, well, chameleons are always green. I'm green. That's authentic. You're like, no, the chameleon's kind of a badass, because no matter what's going on, the chameleon can blend right in. Nobody can even tell it's there. And I think that's the same thing you're talking about in business and in life. It's like, have the ability to still be you. The chameleon's still there, but it's able to actually blend into an environment. And, man, if you could do that paired with preparation, I think there's something about. And all of this is actually preparation because you're just being quiet and learning before you talk, even just in an instance. But really deep preparation that is personalized is so hard to push back on. It's so sexy. I mean, it's like when somebody else feels like they actually know you, when something is prepared perfectly for you, it's so rare today that I feel like it is a superpower. And so, like, if somebody comes and meets with me and they want a job and they slide across the table a presentation of like, here's everything that's going on at your company. Here's all the stuff that I think you guys are doing wrong. Here's the stuff I think you're doing right. I could be wrong on all of this. I just want you to know I'm kind of obsessed with your mission, and I think what you're doing is really special. And so here's sort of how I think I could assist. I'd be like, let's sit and talk. Because that never happens. You know, they come in and expect you to ask the questions about them. And so it's really interesting. I had never thought about it from your lens before.
- [69:33]
A
Well, it's funny you say that. One woman who works with me now, Stormy, and she. I never intended to hire her ever. I wasn't even looking for her. She showed up one day. I just met her through some circumstance, and she showed up one day. She's like, I know who you are. She's like. And she came to talk to me about something else, but on the side, she's like, I just want to give this to you. And she put a whole presentation to me, a whole presentation of something that I didn't know I even needed. It was my stats, how searchable my name was, my. Who followed all these things that I never thought to ever consider. She showed up, this whole PowerPoint presentation, and I was like, huh? And I was like, let's talk from. Let's talk. Let's talk a little bit more to talk a little bit more to. Now she works with. With me full time. Yeah. Because she did that.
- [70:22]
B
Yeah. It's sexy. And, you know, you don't actually have to be smarter than anybody else. You don't have to be more knowledgeable and experienced. You can't be an idiot, and you can't have no knowledge but, like, that little ounce of preparation. But what's crazy is, I'm sure we'll post this. And what often happens is it finds another side of the Internet, and people get mad at what they call free work. You know, like, why would I do all that work for an interview when I don't have the job and nobody's paying me? You can't expect that of me. And then I think of, like, the stories that you've told about what it took to even. Even try out for the secret Service. Like, you weren't like, you need to pay me for tryouts. Right. And you were getting up at like 3am and go. I mean, what. What did you have to go through to become a Secret Service agent before.
- [71:02]
A
I tell you that? Yeah, I worked for. I. This. This woman came up before Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy. I was in college, and it came out like, they're looking for an intern. So I'm like, I didn't even dawn to me as a congresswoman, like, how hard can it be? I was like, they like me. They like me. I was very like that. I show up, I do an interview, I get the internship for free.
- [71:24]
B
Yeah.
- [71:25]
A
So you might argue it's an internship for free. It's a couple of months. And it was a couple of months my internship finishes. And I asked him, I'm like, I'd like to stay on. And they said, well, we have to open it up to be fair to other people, and we can't hire you. I'm like, well, I don't want to get paid. I'm like, what if you have two interns and I stay on and I keep working for free? And I had their cases, their constituent cases, and they liked me. They said, sure. I stayed on for almost two years, and I worked for free. So you might look at that and be like, well, that's a complete waste of time. You already did the internship. Why do you need it? Well, when the hire hiring process came for the U.S. secret Service, I needed three reference letters. And who do you think wrote me a stellar reference letter? Carolyn McCarthy. And I to this day, think that that played a major role in my application getting pushed forward, that I had a congresswoman write me that reference letter. But I worked for her for two years for free. Even with the job, like, NYPD. When I went in, I. I think it was 27,900, my salary, which meant I. My check was like 400 every two weeks after taxes. I had no. I had no idea. The first time the check comes, I get the check. And I was in the academy because they started paying us in the academy. And I was like, this can't be right. There's no way this is right. 400 bucks, two weeks. So I go to the sergeant. I'm like, sir, can I. You know, I'm a cadet. I'm like, sir, can I show you something? And he's like, what do you want, recruit? I was like, I don't think this is right. He's like, it's right. He didn't even look at it. It's right. It's right. Go away, recruit. Go away. Because you're not really supposed to talk to them. You call them the white shirt, so you're not supposed to talk to them. I'm like, but, sir, this can't be right. 400 bucks, two weeks. I mean, this is crazy. And, like, finally I'm like, but, sir, please. And he looks over, he's like, it's right, recruit. Go away. I was like, 400 bucks for two weeks. They're like, how do you live? But I stuck it out. I didn't come from wealth, I didn't come from money. And I saw my family struggle quite a bit. I lived in government housing, which was like government subsidized housing, which is not great in New York City. But I think if you put effort and meaning, the wealth will come. But if you look at the dollar amount from the get go, you're in trouble.
- [73:36]
B
Yeah.
- [73:36]
A
In fact, any student that I have that comes to me because some of my students, like, know who I was and what I did. And they'll be like, professor, what does the Secret Service agent make? And as soon as I hear that, I'm like, that's job stuff. That job's not for you.
- [73:49]
B
Yeah, it's. It's true. I mean, I remember when I was with Chris and he was still in the military, he was in the teams, and I was kind of already successful in business, and I was going to leave my firm at the time, and I was kind of fighting with one of the other partners. And so I was frustrated. And I'm like, I don't know, do I start a new business? Do I get another job? Like, what am I gonna do? And he's like, leans over to gives me his hand, and he's like, babe. He's like, I got us. I was like, he's like, I'll pay for everything, dude. You don't know how expensive I am, but that is so cute.
- [74:22]
A
And because it's a government military. Hilary.
- [74:25]
B
I know. Oh, yeah. I mean, he. He did not make a lot of money. And also in California, you know, it's expensive there. Overall, I'm expensive. But he never cared. Like, he has never chased money. Man does not care. I mean, I think he likes some nice stuff now, but back then, that just then also, I think that's really cool. Like, a lot of women ask me, like, how do you find a great partner? I'm like, fuck, I don't know. I found one. He's awesome. I don't have Any more reps at it than that. But I do think it's really helpful if you're kind of like a. If I do chase, I chase business and money and meaning that way I always have. I like the game of business, but he doesn't. And I love that partnership because when he doesn't and I do, it means we're not playing the exact same game. So we're not competing with another, which really helps. Okay, I want to end with you. Are you writing another book? Because your last book was a massive bestseller. I'm about halfway through it right now. I. And it feels to me like never splitting. The difference with Chris Voss was one of those books that I come back to continuously. And your book, I didn't realize how much regarding mindset. And you say it in a very strong way. It's not this like woo woo, manifesting mindset bullshit. And so are you gonna write another one?
- [75:45]
A
I'm working on my second one now. Yes. And it's gonna be right. We're working on the title, but 100 rules of engagement and so things to help people navigate and guide their situation. And I never thought I'd be like giving advice to people. Like I actually, you know. You know, again, we're talking off camera. I left the U. S. Secret service to go into news. I was just going to do news. I was going to be that person to say, hi, we had a shooting. Hi, we had this. Let me break it down for you. Let me do the assessment. I never thought I'd be on stage. I never wanted to. And I just stumbled into it. And when it came to a book, when I had been approached for books in the past, it was all tell all.
- [76:27]
B
Yeah.
- [76:27]
A
And I was like, I can't. I was like, I'm not doing that. So a book in my head was really not on the forefront. And then a great literary agent came to me who was like, we want to do books that make the world a better, more just wiser place. And I said, I'll do a book book with you. And so we. When I wrote becoming bulletproof, I mean I put a lot into it and everything was about the reader. How do I help? What did I learn that helped me that can help them and can it transcend into. The whole point was to help them use these things that I also learn and use. And I saw other great individuals around me use to help them in their life to negotiate, to read people, to avoid deception, to not get hurt, to recover faster, just all those things. So a lot of Time went into Bulletproof. It's like, I just. It just got published, and it's getting published in Turkey now and another country. I'm drawing a blank. Oh, Slovenia. It's coming out in Slovenia now. So it's. I'm amazed. I'm amazed that it's still going and it's going into these other countries. So I'm. I'm. I'm humbled by it. So the second book I'm working on again, but again, the. The meaning is, how does it help other people? And so there was a window of time, which, again, by mistake, I began doing mentor sessions because people would write in, evie, I have this issue. And I was just like, all right, screw it. Let me do some mentor sessions and maybe I can help some people. Because I'm sure you get a lot of messages and DMs, and it's a text or a message, can you give me advice on this? And you're thinking, one, I don't have time. But two, I. I don't know enough to give you. I can't give you this blanket advice. I need to know the whole thing. So it was around the COVID time I opened up and started doing some mentor sessions with people in consultations. And that's when I started seeing repetitive patterns that people would fall into or mistakes they would make or things they didn't know. And so that's where Rules of Engagement is coming from. So I'm still in the drafting phase.
- [78:31]
B
What's. What's, like, one thing that people should look forward to from that book, like, what are you like, God, people need to know this.
- [78:40]
A
You're not that special, because none of us are. And when you think you're special, your problems and pain and suffering is special, and you can't get through it. And actually, one thing that kept me grounded even at a young age, when I would do interviews and interrogations, whether it was suspects or victims or witness, when I would hear what they were exposed to, it made my life, like, not so bad. My problems, not so bad. I just was like, who am I to have experienced anything? So that kept me centered and grounded for many, many, many years. But when you think you're really going through it and you're the only one going through it and nobody understands you, that is a horribly isolating place to be. It is going to. The more of an identity person you are, the more you overanalyze yourself and your pain and who screwed you over and how much they screwed you over, the more, the higher your depression is going to be in the higher anxiety is going to be. And I actually would see that repeatedly when I did consulting or mentors or even when I get off a stage and I speak, people come to me. This person did this to me. And they will hold on to it. Like, they hold on to it and it's like, let it go. I'm not telling you to forgive. I am not a forgive person. I will let it go. I'm not letting you in. Oh, no, no, no. I learned my lesson the first time. Thank you. Stay all the way over there. But I'm not going to take you and what you did to me and take it with me, like, the next seven years down. I'm not going to give you that. And I think one of the things is let, let it go. People hold on to the harm and the negativity and whatever somebody did to them, or that boss screwed me, or this guy let me go, or this person dumped me and it's like, don't. It poisons you.
- [80:45]
B
I can't wait to read this. Evie, thank you so much for being here today. This was so amazing. Hey, crew. This is so cool. The podcast is growing like crazy. And it's only actually because of one thing. You. I don't know if you know this, but the only way the big deal pod grows is when you share it with somebody else. We don't do ads, we don't do pay for play. We don't go on other people's podcasts and talk about it. So if you think there was something helpful here, if we made you money, we made you think about your business or life differently. The most beautiful thing you can do for me is share it. And the most beautiful thing you can do for someone that you care about is to share it with them. Help them grow alongside you. So please, share the pod. That's how we grow. And also tag me on anything you share. I love resharing other builders across Instagram, Twitter and all other platforms. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. You're super important to me.