← BiggerPockets Money Podcast
BiggerPockets Money Podcast
7 Maxed Out Credit Cards to Money Expert by Making a BIG Mental Shift
00:46:31
Are you building wealth but feel like you can never enjoy it? Do you struggle with money, fearing you carry the same poor financial habits as your parents? Whether you’ve got a lot of money or a little, many of us face the same mental financial challenges—anxiety, shame, and stress—but it doesn’t have to stay this way. Today’s guest is living proof that change is possible. After completely turning his financial life around, from maxed-out credit cards, a rock-bottom credit score, repossessions, and empty bank accounts, to achieving financial success, he now teaches others how to do the same. Steven Hughes, a money therapist, focuses on uncovering the financial beliefs shaped during childhood. Steven recognized that the negative money mindset affecting him in his youth also impacted countless others. To address this, he founded the non-profit “Know Money” to help people cultivate a stress-free, anxiety-free, and guilt-free perspective on money, empowering them to achieve true weal...
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- [00:00]
Mindy Jensen
Are finances impacting your mental health? You're not alone. In today's episode, we're joined by financial therapist Steven M. Hughes, and we'll unpack the often overlooked ways our financial habits affect our mental well being. We'll discuss where money struggles typically begin, exploring how the pressures of debt spending patterns and how financial uncertainty can lead to cycles of stress, anxiety and depression sleep. Stephen will offer insights on recognizing these patterns and how to create healthier relationships with money, even if you consider yourself good with money. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen, and with me, as always, is my therapeutic co host, Scott Trench.
- [00:45]
Scott Trench
Thanks, Mindy. Great to be here and join you with our goal on BiggerPockets money of helping you shrink your financial anxiety. You are in the right place if you want to get your financial house in order, because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you're starting what your emotions around money are like. Stephen, we are so excited to have you on the Bigger Pockets Money podcast today. Thank you so much for joining us.
- [01:07]
Steven M. Hughes
Yes, thank you for having me. It's surreal being here. I've loved the show for a long time, longtime listener. So let's get into it.
- [01:13]
Mindy Jensen
Yes, let's get into it. And specifically, Steven, I want to know about your money background. Where did your journey with money begin?
- [01:20]
Steven M. Hughes
So my journey, I would say, began in Jamaica. Both of my parents are from Jamaica. They immigrated here and I was born in New York. But like a lot of people, we didn't grow up talking about money. And we also grew up with some humble beginnings. It was eight of us in a three bedroom house, sometimes 10, depending on who was here from Jamaica. And because we didn't talk about money, I went to college and made every money misstep possible. Like 7. Maxed out credit cards, overdraft fees, to the point they closed all of my bank accounts and told me to ease on down the road, repossessions, plural, and eviction. My credit score was a 385. I didn't know it could go that low at the time. And yeah, I just didn't. I wasn't really managing my money well, let's say. But a mentor of mine, he gave me a book called the Richest man of Babylon. Y'all might be familiar with it. And after I read it, I started making some changes in my financial life and that led me to start volunteering in financial education after I dropped out of College in 2010. And that was what led me to start my nonprofit organization at the time, no money. And after a few years of doing some financial coaching for people and hosting community events, I realized that there were people who were asking me to come back to the financial coaching. And I started as somebody who was really focused on financial literacy. But as I saw people getting the information they needed, I realized that it wasn't just the education that they needed. They needed some accountability. They needed some resources on how they think and feel. And that's when I turned specifically to financial psychology, behavioral finance, and financial therapy around 2015. And I was nerding out, like, I was reading textbooks, but I wasn't in class. And that's how I knew, like, oh, this must be for me.
- [03:07]
Mindy Jensen
Did you have any guilt about your 385 credit score and the fact that, I mean, I'm assuming that with the 385 credit score, you weren't making on time payments on your credit cards, right?
- [03:19]
Steven M. Hughes
No. Those credit card payments oftentimes, like, slipped by the wayside. And so I did have guilt because, like, when you have a 385 credit score and you're in college, like, you're renting an apartment, so you have to apply for an apartment. And that also led to me, like, renting a house instead of an apartment from a landlord who had a house, from his family who wasn't, I guess, as stringent as, like, an apartment complex. And so, you know, credit scores do change the options that you have. But I was definitely. I definitely felt guilty about, like, dang, how did I get here? How did it get so bad?
- [03:56]
Mindy Jensen
Did you ever think maybe I should stop spending money? Or did you? Were you just, like, I guess I'm just gonna have bad credit my whole life?
- [04:03]
Steven M. Hughes
It wasn't. I thought I should stop spending money. I was just trying to get a handle on things because there were some people around me who, even though we didn't talk about money, it looked like things were fine for them. Like, they had a car they could drive. They had gas in it all the time. They could eat whenever they wanted to. They had a roof over their head. They didn't worry about evictions or late bills or fees. And I also know that back in college, like, I am somebody who, you know, loves family and friends. I'm a very selfless person, and I was managing my money that way, too. And so there were times where I would spend money on people or things that I wasn't gonna get the money back. But I felt like, you know, I want I want to feel good at this point or I want to help somebody feel good if they're, you know, in a situation.
- [04:53]
Mindy Jensen
You have to take care of yourself first. Stephen.
- [04:55]
Steven M. Hughes
Yeah, that mask, you got to put it on first.
- [04:58]
Mindy Jensen
18 year old Steven.
- [04:59]
Steven M. Hughes
Yeah, I wish, I wish I could holler 18 year old Steven.
- [05:02]
Scott Trench
So walk me through. You said in 2010 you dropped out of college and you were talking about the stuff in class. So. So were we setting up to really move into this career, drop out of college, pursue this career of helping via nonprofit, bring awareness about financial concepts to folks and that's what you dropped out of college to do or how, how did that translate?
- [05:22]
Steven M. Hughes
No, I dropped out of college because I failed the last class. I needed to graduate and I didn't want to stay any longer. And so the last class that I need to graduate, my family was like, what, you're not graduating? But at the time, I had five job offers because I was a power networker. I'd been, I had sales experience. And so I jumped into the world of business, to business sales, something I still love. But the dropping out of college was not saying like, oh, I'm going to pursue this financial education thing, because I still didn't even have my money together when I dropped out of college. And I didn't even know this was a thing that people did as like a profession.
- [05:57]
Scott Trench
Okay, so we have two journeys here that I really want to get into. One is your personal financial story, and the second is no money and how, how you built that out. So where, where do these interweave? Like, when did your personal financial situation begin to really improve and you started making big changes there? And, you know, you said it was after the Butcher's man in Babylon. Was that in college or was that immediately afterwards when you got this job?
- [06:19]
Steven M. Hughes
So I started making better financial decisions before the end of that year, but maybe not the best academic decisions because I failed that class in that summer. But then as I continue to just delve more into personal finance, I started to turn my financial life around.180. And in two, in 2011, I started volunteering with Junior Achievement. And so teaching the students that I was working with about money, you could, I could feel like, okay, this is something that I like to do. And I'd already been a speaker because of some of the leadership positions I had in college. And so it just started to develop itself. And in 2012, I started no money, but I hadn't done anything with it. I was like, oh, I guess this is something I should do so I could rent bigger rooms at like the rec centers and the libraries that I was talking at. But it wasn't until like 2013 where I really quit my full time job for the first time and decided like, okay, I'm going to focus on this thing. I'm going to get it cranked up and grow it. And I really started doing community events at least once a quarter and started doing more speaking engagements and workshops.
- [07:25]
Scott Trench
All right, we've got to take a break, but more from Stephen after this. We're going to discuss how to have a healthier money mindset this year.
- [07:33]
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- [09:02]
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- [09:36]
Mindy Jensen
All right, let's jump back in with Stephen. So let's say somebody's listening to this. They want to get their finances in order. They are totally identifying with 18 year old Steven's money management approach of just like, whatever, I'll figure it out later. What's the first step you would tell them if they've decided, yes, I want to make a change, what are those changes they need to be making?
- [09:58]
Steven M. Hughes
The first step is instead of focusing on the fruit, which is like the bad spending or the ways that you're managing your money now by really focusing on the root. So why is it that you think or feel about money the way that you do and really uncovering somebody's money story? Like some of the things I shared with y'all, how did you grow up with money? What were the things that, what are the things you heard about money? What are the things you saw around money? What are the things you experienced around money? What did your parents experience around money when they were growing up and their parents. Because all of those things have impact on how we think and feel and behave with money now. And so for people who decide, like, all right, I'm wilding, like I'm doing a little too much, really, it starts with your money story and becoming more aware of where you were in the past because we start putting the money, the equation of money and value together at a very young age before we can even really form full sentences. And so from then till now, we've had a lot of time to develop these things that we feel and think about money. And if you're at the same place that 18 year old Steven was, where you develop these things, even though there weren't money conversations directly happening with you, then you got to take some inventory of how you think and feel about money before you decide, like, oh, I'm going to switch gears and just do these things differently and hit these financial goals, it may not happen like that, my friend. You got to start from the foundation.
- [11:26]
Mindy Jensen
I love that I, I think that there's a lot of, of people who find themselves in these situations and they're like, well, I guess I'm just going to be bad with money my whole life. Or I guess I'm just gonna have a bad credit score my whole life. Or this is just the way it is. I'm not gonna make any changes. And. And changes aren't going to happen to you. You have to be the driver of those changes. And I would love for there to be an easy button. Just be like, oh, push this easy button and then all your finances will be fixed. But the easy button is you doing the work and you stopping spending more than you have. Are. You have $5,000, you can only spend $5,000. If you have $500, you can only spend $500. So however much you have, look at how you can support your life first before you go buy pizza for the house. Stephen.
- [12:11]
Steven M. Hughes
Yes, for sure, for sure.
- [12:13]
Scott Trench
So can you. Can you tell me a little bit about after you read the Richest man in Babylon, you know, and the, the next two years or so, what you had a 385 credit score, you had all this debt, seven maxed out credit cards. What was the total amount of debt and how did that change once you started put implementing more healthy financial practices?
- [12:32]
Steven M. Hughes
Yeah, I can't. I don't know the number, but I know that in terms of the debt, I have student loans. And so I had them at that point, but I also was paying back student loans for a degree that I hadn't finished. And that wasn't a good feeling, of course. And then with the credit cards, they probably totaled around a couple thousand dollars, but it felt at the time insurmountable because it was just money that was more than one single check that I was making. And so after reading the Richest man in Babylon, like, I really started to get a little bit clear on, okay, well, how do I put some of the. How do I put one foot in front of the other, get rid of some of this debt, and then also start saving so I can invest? Because I was listening to things like bigger pockets early on. I was listening to or I was reading books that was talking about real estate investing and the stock market. And I said, I want to get to that. But really I was just taking the steps to knock out the debt after reading the Richest man in Babylon. And it was the first time that I heard of this thing like saving for the future and emergency funds. And so I was like, oh, that sounds pretty cool. Like having money to do the things that come up. Like that's, that's a novel idea. And so, you know, these are the things I started putting in place. Super basic, right? But things I started to put in place. That really helped me launch into the work that I'm doing now.
- [13:59]
Scott Trench
When did you move into this nonprofit or this work of financial therapy specifically? What year was that?
- [14:06]
Steven M. Hughes
That was around 2013.
- [14:08]
Scott Trench
Okay. Can you tell us a little bit about that transition and how your career changed from there?
- [14:12]
Steven M. Hughes
Yeah. So early on, with no money, I really focused on facilitating workshops and then also creating curriculum. So for nonprofit organizations, for companies, for colleges and universities, they would bring no money on campus to talk to their students about money. Or organizations like nonprofits would bring us in to host workshops or events around money that weren't, like, your stale bank financial education workshops that were, like, free. Right. We didn't walk into a workshop and say, like, hey, you should budget. You should be budgeting. This is a budgeting workshop. We might make a list of all the things that we want to spend our money on, including our vices, and show people, like, how to manage their money around all these things. And so that's what, you know, taking off looked like for us.
- [15:01]
Scott Trench
Awesome. And when did the concept of financial therapist come out? Come about? How did that. How did what? What is what? Can you explain what that is and where that comes into play?
- [15:11]
Steven M. Hughes
Sure. So a financial therapist is someone who helps an individual feel better about their finances so they can make decisions in the present and the future that are financially healthy. And if they're doing their job right, these are. This is going to impact that person holistically. So not just their financial life, but usually their mental, physical, emotional, spiritual health are all things that are going to improve. And in terms of, like, when that came into picture, like, as I was doing the financial education side of things, early on, there were financial advising firms that would reach out to me and say, like, hey, are you interested in coming on board? And at first I was like, oh, maybe I want to be a financial advisor. But then as I learned more about a financial advisor, I was like, I'm not really interested in managing anybody's investments, but it's not something that I want to do. And then as I went along, I was trying to figure out, like, where I, like, fit into the financial professional picture. I started delving a little bit deeper into how people thought and felt about money and financial psychology and behavioral finance became a real thing for me. I got a graduate certificate in behavioral finance. I decided to start a financial psychology and behavioral finance program at Creighton University. And from there, I was like, well, this. I started to learn about financial therapy and financial therapists and leaned, you know, headfirst into it really, before the pandemic.
- [16:43]
Mindy Jensen
Started, this particular Fincon that we just had in 2024 was the first time I had really heard about the concept of financial therapy. I met you, I met like six different financial therapists at fincon. And at first I was like, oh, I wonder what this is about? And then I started thinking about it. I'm like, this is so perfect. This is such a need. Because when people aren't good with money, typically they're not good with money, you know, and they're bad with money, like really bad with money. They've got debt, they've got low credit scores, they, they've got all this stress. And you know, how many times, Scott, have we talked to people who are like, oh, I never learned about money growing up. I think this is episode 601. So what? Like 599 of the people that we've talked to never learned about money growing up. And yet you have this huge amount of guilt that you don't know how to make your finances work for you. So the concept of financial therapy really seems to have an excellent place in society today because there's all this guilt.
- [17:50]
D
You should not have all of this.
- [17:53]
Mindy Jensen
Guilt that you don't know how to, how to make your, your money work for you.
- [17:58]
D
What are some of the most common.
- [17:59]
Mindy Jensen
Money related challenges that you're seeing people? Facing?
- [18:02]
Steven M. Hughes
Every day we're reminded that somebody is doing well with money, whether they bought a car or they bought their dream house, or they paid off their loans or their debt, or they've got all these investments. And so sometimes, like, because you don't have the education, information or the experience of doing things positively with money, you see these things happening with other people and you're like, oh, I'm the same age or I'm older than this person. And then you feel this guilt, like, dang, why don't I know what I'm doing with my money? This doesn't make any sense. And, but in terms of the things that I see most common with the people who come to me, they may feel that guilt or shame around money. They also may feel shame around making a lot of money. So for people who may have had humble beginnings and they are making more money than their parents had ever seen combined throughout their life, sometimes they feel a little shameful about like, oh, I have so much money and I'm doing a job that is a 10th or 25% of the like effort that my parents had, had worked because they labored. They did all of this, all of these Things to make the little bit of money that they did. And I'm making so much money now, it feels kind of weird. It feels kind of. And they attach an emotion to that. Other clients that I have and my clients, there's some of them that make $50,000 a year. There are some that make $50,000 a month. Some of them, in terms of, like, the way that they feel about money, they may feel like I just can't get right or they don't have the peace of mind and clarity around their spending. And so even if they are making enough money, they are living paycheck to paycheck. Like, I worked with somebody who they were making $400,000 a year and every month they were like, I just don't know where the money is going. I was like, gosh, there's so much money to not know where it's going. A lot of the things that we just have in our lives can kind of derail you and make you feel away about money. But something that I mentioned to my clients is that even if you solve the income problem or the income challenge, that doesn't mean that you've solved all the life challenges that are going to happen that will directly relate to your income. And so as you're experiencing these life things, you have to acknowledge that, okay, well, there may be some money tied to this. There may also be some thoughts and feelings tied to this because this is something that's, that you're experiencing before you, you know, spend $25,000 a month on a condo in South Carolina. I can't think of one apartment that would cost that much in the state of South Carolina, but you know, those, those things.
- [20:51]
Scott Trench
We gotta take one more final ad break and then we'll be right back.
- [20:55]
D
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- [25:10]
Mindy Jensen
Let's jump back in.
- [25:11]
Scott Trench
Can you give us some examples of how you think about healthy use the word attach emotion? This just this is a fact about their financial situation and this is the emotion they attach to it, which I think is a very powerful fundamental concept that you probably apply every day in your work here. Walk me through some healthy examples of healthy emotions and and how they tie to finances and unhealthy emotional attachments to financial situations.
- [25:39]
Steven M. Hughes
Yeah, so unhealthy emotional attachments will be like that shame, that guilt, the resentment that we talked about before. Those, those feelings of like not feeling positive about your money. And so when it comes to positive emotions, the other thing that I talk to my clients about is the emotions or energy in motion. They're not supposed to be the thing that is the captain of the boat with your financial decisions. They're also not supposed to be the thing that you throw out on the side, on the waistline, on the wayside just because people tell you that you should take your emotions out of money decisions. And so Some of the positive emotions that people tie to different money decisions is happiness. Right? You can buy happiness if you know where to shop, but joy, like peace of mind, clarity, you'll have these different feelings. And really, I'm somebody who's very mindful, so I try to help people get to that point as well. Not only in their financial lives, but outside of that as well. But really, the ways that you want to feel about other things in your life, not just money, are the emotions that you're going to attach to these money decisions and these money experiences when they happen. And if you aren't careful, that emotion, negative or positive, will stick to that experience. So when you relive that through another experience that you have, or something triggers you that reminds you of something that happened in the past, it also may change your behavior of how you really want to behave.
- [27:24]
Scott Trench
So do you view your job as a financial therapist as changing the way people feel about money or making them wealthier in some way? Context of building their wealth, helping them make better financial decisions might be another way to put it.
- [27:39]
Steven M. Hughes
So my job is to be a guide to make healthier financial decisions. And being a guide, it may look like me referring you to a financial advisor or a talk therapist, because this is what you need right now. Me being a guide may also be me breaking down how you can increase your awareness around your own money story, or examining the relationships that you and the people that you love have with money. But really it's. I can't say that it's either or. It's really both. And because I know when you're saying wealthier, you're talking about, like money in the bank, digits on a bank account number. But, you know, when it comes to wealth, I don't only like, sift it down to financial means because we have so many other resources that we're coming into contact with that are going to impact our money. It wasn't exactly what you asked for, but it's a little both.
- [28:36]
Mindy Jensen
And okay, so almost two years ago now, my husband and I sat down with Ramit Sethi, and we were guests on his show talking about learning, you know, how to spend the money, that we have a bit of a different problem from somebody who is spending more than they have. But this is something that we really struggle with. And after the show aired, we were inundated with comments from people who said the same thing. I have this same problem. I've been on the path to financial independence. I don't have the ability to spend money. I have this scarcity mindset. I feel bad when I'm spending money. What advice would you give someone who is struggling with this, this fear of spending money after hitting financial independence?
- [29:24]
Steven M. Hughes
So first I would tell them congrats on hitting the fire number. But then I would let them know, like, hey, the money journey that you took to get here is not the same money journey that you're running going forward. So we should stop and consider what your new non negotiables are and what are the things that you're willing to sacrifice for those non negotiables. Because when somebody hits their fire number, they may get very focused on lifestyle, they may get very focused on, like how they spend their time. And that's what we want them to do. Like, we also want them to be conscious of how much money they have and how they spend their money. But it's just a different situation because you pursued fire for additional choices to decide, hey, am I going to stay at this full time job that I don't like, or I would like to retire early and decide that I'm going to have financial independence and do the things I want to do. So as you're running really hard to your fire number and then you hit it, sometimes you may feel like, I still have to accumulate this money, I still have to get to this fire number. I still have to get money in the door. But not stopping and acknowledging like, hey, this is a part of the journey. Just like my run up to financial education was a part of the journey and then my pursuit to fire was a part of the journey. This is a new chapter. And this new chapter is going to take some new tools and some new living. And so we should take a step back to decide, like, hey, what are the things that you really want to focus on? And it may not be making more income, it may be spending more time with the family or traveling the way you want to or, you know, going to that house more than you have in the past that you have up in the mountains. Or maybe you're splitting half of your time in the United States and half of your time in Jamaica because it's literally paradise. And so, you know, those are, those are things that I would give to someone who's hit a fire number but has a challenge of like really spending their money now.
- [31:28]
Mindy Jensen
I like that. What are your new non negotiables? Because my old non negotiables don't really count anymore. They've changed. But I also, honestly, I say that they've changed. I know that they will change. But I don't know that I have really sat down or actually, I do know that I haven't really sat down and thought about that. I like that. I like that a lot. So now my husband's like, thanks a lot, Steven. Now I gotta go have this conversation and think about these things.
- [31:58]
Scott Trench
Stephen, do you have any tools that you use or that you wish other people knew about managing their emotions around Mike? Like, is there, you know, like for example, labeling the emotion, like that's I think, a very basic tool that folks have. And then with emotions, do you have anything like that that is very simple that folks can begin to apply to make some progress if they have unhealthy relationship with.
- [32:23]
Steven M. Hughes
Yeah. So labeling the emotion is one thing that's very helpful. Going through your non negotiables and the things you're willing to sacrifice is also helpful. And when I say non negotiables, I mean, what are the things that you're gonna do? No matter if you have $10 in the bank, $100 in the bank, or $1,000 or more in the bank, Some of those things for me is that I'm going to hang out with my friends and family, I'm going to spend time with my fiance, I'm going to find a way to dine out because I'm a foodie, I love eating my money and just learning these things that these are non negotiables for me. Well, what are the things that I'm willing to sacrifice? I'm not a big shopper. I mean, you can see this T shirt. It's a branded T shirt from my company. I think it cost me $11. I'm not somebody who's huge into cars, so I still have my paid off Jeep from 2015. There are things that I just don't care about financially that I can push into the non negotiable bucket. I think for people who can make a short list of five things that will help you kind of move further down the road where you want to go. Another thing that I'll mention that I think a lot of people could use as a resource is we know that as we were growing up with money, that there was somebody in our house who managed the money. It may have been our mom, it may have been our dad, it may have been a joint effort, it may have been another family member, depending on your living situation. There are some talks that I've had and somebody's like, it must have been Jesus because no one is managing money in my household. And you know, somebody Is doing something with money in your household or in your community, an activity that you can do is write down a list of the five people who are like closest to you or closest to you as a kid. And as you write down each of these people's names, under their name, write down the five characteristics that you believe that they like, feel, or think when it comes to money. So maybe there's someone who is conservative with money. Maybe there's somebody who is a risk taker. Maybe they like to live lavishly. Maybe they like to, maybe they're a big spender when they're friends and family in town. Maybe they love to do events, right? And as you make this list of five things from each of these people and you get to the fifth person, one thing that you can go through as you look at these experiences or these ways that people think and feel is you can circle the things that you have also adopted. They're also aligned with you. And for, for some people, the first time they do this, they realize that when they left their parents house, the one thing they decided was that they weren't going to be like their parents with their money. And then they have turned exactly into their parents with their money. And so really just taking a step back and getting like a 10,000 foot overview of your thoughts and feelings about money is something that will help people. As far as tools, I was talking about money personalities earlier in terms of the frugal entrepreneur and the dreamer. There's an app from a nonprofit called the Singleton foundation on financial literacy and entrepreneurship called Groove Money. And if you go to groove money.org you can take like your money personality test and it'll spit out like one of eight money personalities about you. And I was going to send it to y'all so we could talk about it on here, but I just ran out of time. But I think that, you know, for, for people who are trying to learn more about themselves and just really get a snapshot of like what they can do to change. Before you can change and take these steps, really you have to understand yourself, right? There are a couple of stages of change. And so before you can start the action stage, you have to make some contemplation and some things that you're going to think about of how you're going to get to this point. So hopefully those couple of tools will help.
- [36:32]
Scott Trench
Those are awesome. Thank you. That's a really powerful one. I'm like thinking about how my, you know, people that were, were prominent in my upbringing were how their, what their relationship with money was. And it's like you always, you always think about your parents, who I think had a pretty reasonably healthy relationship with money. And then. And then, you know, there's. But the other people I think are also. Is really a big one. I can think of several people who really impacted the way I think about it. And I'll have to go back and do that myself. So that's awesome. But then groove money.
- [37:00]
Steven M. Hughes
I have.
- [37:00]
Scott Trench
I've taken a financial personality test. I forget my results. It was a different one. But also go check that one out here as well. So thank you.
- [37:07]
Steven M. Hughes
Cool. Cool. You're welcome.
- [37:08]
Mindy Jensen
Yeah. And I quickly sent a note to my husband because I don't want to forget. I said, oh, I'm chatting with a financial therapist. What are your non negotiables? What's your money personality? Now he's like, oh, that's really interesting. And I'd be interested in hearing what yours is. Me. Me personally. And I'm like, yeah, we're going to have a conversation about this. We're probably turn it into a podcast episode, because why not? But I love that there's something that's.
- [37:31]
Scott Trench
Interesting here in finance that's probably different than other parts of life where like, it's always a good idea to eat healthy, take care of yourself, you know, be fit, you know, all those kinds of things. But money is not like that. Right. Like, what is it like? Mindy, Steven needed more of this unhealthy frugality back when he was 18. Right. And. And that's really important to get started in the financial journey or pay off debt. That's the healthy dynamic. At least, at least in relationship to giving someone some semblance of independent like remove separation from dependence and into this world of independence. And then to build wealth, to build that first couple hundred thousand or first million dollars in wealth, which is a long grind, needs that discipline. And then once you have this financial independence, you know, abundance that you have, Mindy, for example, then that mindset becomes. And so like there's this like evolution that I think is. Is very difficult for people because their financial position probably changes faster than their mindsets. I'm going on this for a while, Stephen. I see you nodding. It sounds like you're agreeing, but like, that's a dynamic that doesn't exist in other parts of your life really. Right.
- [38:40]
Steven M. Hughes
Yeah. What you just said in terms of like our experiences moving faster than our mindset is exactly right.
- [38:47]
Scott Trench
Let's go back for a second to something you said here around the family fund Because I think think that this is a dynamic that we encounter occasionally on bigger pockets of money. But the fact of the matter is that people who listen to a personal finance podcast in their free time, hundreds of episodes of it, are likely to have different sets of problems than other people who are perhaps where you were 18 years ago, struggling to get out of debt.
- [39:16]
Steven M. Hughes
Right.
- [39:16]
Scott Trench
Our typical listener is someone who's interested in fire in a dynamic that impacts a lot of people. And I know this from my time volunteering with folks in kind of lower income or poverty situations and teaching personal finance. Is this concept of the family or throw in the friends fund. There's a community that really holds these folks that are struggling up and then when they get money, they feel like they need to give back to that community, throw a pizza party for the block or these types of things. Do you encounter this frequently? Am I articulating this appropriately, this problem and how and is that a tool that is commonly needed in folks that you're working with from a financial therapy standpoint?
- [40:01]
Steven M. Hughes
Yeah, I'm picking up what you're putting down. And in terms of people encountering this, as I mentioned before, they like that person, may be financially well and they feel guilt or they feel some shame because they still know people who are their same age or maybe older who they don't believe is going to encounter this type of financial security or financial independence. And so they want to help. But you also don't want to turn yourself into the financial faucet for your family that anytime somebody needs something, they just come to you and you just pour out the money. And so this is something that I do encounter especially with my high income or higher net worth financial net worth clients. And I always say financial net worth because your money can't ever equate to like you, your value as a person. But when it comes to somebody having enough money where they can make decisions to say, like, hey, I'm going to help another family, you want to help that other family, but you also want to put your mask on or keep your mask on. And so I'm somebody who is huge into community. I believe that there are community savings tools that work for our benefit. And also this is a community financial tool. Like a family fund is something that also sparks new conversations for people. Like I was talking to a client, they said, I put that family fund in place and the next family reunion, we talked about how to put more of our money together so we can grow a bigger family fund and then we can start investing together in the family. With the family fund instead of only giving people emergency like loans. And so these financial actions, as we unpack some of the emotions around them and we get resources to go a little bit further down the road, really impact they have a ripple effect on our family, on our friends and our community. If we do take the, the road of the work that we have to do to get to that point way.
- [42:02]
Scott Trench
You know, this is so fascinating because, because this, this is a, this because of my privileged background around this, like it is unfathomable for me to have a situation. It's just so unlikely that my parents would ask me for money, for example, and my brother would ask me for money or another, another family member there. And so, but this is a real issue that holds back tens or hundreds of millions of Americans. Right. Because, because that's, that's, that's how this is working. And this is a great tool to think about that. Right. Because it's one thing knock out your debt. Once your debt's not doubt, then I become a provider for other folks in my life. And that is a real problem that we, that I saw a number of times among other folks and perhaps other listeners who may have enjoyed similar privileges are not really, are not really, you know, thoughtful about out there and I love that as a tool. That's a great concept here. And hey, there's just a percentage that's going to that purpose and the rest is not. That's going to help everybody now. Everyone's going to get more going to participate in this. So thank you for sharing that.
- [42:57]
Steven M. Hughes
Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And this is perfect for the top of the year. Like, you know, this is the conversation we're going to have.
- [43:02]
Scott Trench
Yeah.
- [43:03]
Mindy Jensen
I even like the idea of a family fund. You know, it's, it's January and maybe I'm going to throw a few hundred dollars a month into my family fund and maybe I'm not going to tell anybody about it. But if somebody reaches out and they, they need money for XYZ and it's a family fund, don't reach out to me and be, hey, I heard you talking about you have extra money. No, I don't. There's no such thing as extra money.
- [43:26]
Scott Trench
Is there a bigger pockets money family?
- [43:30]
D
Yeah.
- [43:31]
Mindy Jensen
For anybody in the bigger pockets money family wanting to, to borrow from the family fund, it's scott@biggerpockets.com.
- [43:39]
D
But you know, there have been people in the past.
- [43:42]
Mindy Jensen
Who have asked me for money and my thought is always first, are you.
- [43:46]
D
Going to be able to pay me back.
- [43:47]
Mindy Jensen
And there are some people that I would never lend money to because I would never get it back. But it's not lending from the family fund. It's giving from the family fund. And if they return it, then it's a loan.
- [43:59]
Steven M. Hughes
I feel the same way with people who are in the personal finance community who. A lot of people see me as a financial wellness or financial therapist who's also a speaker. And as they see me speaking, they're like, well, how can I. How can I do what you're doing? And if I give you some insight on, like, how you can grow your speaking career, and then you come back to me later and like, hey, how do you do this? And I'm going to ask you, did you do what I mentioned to do before? And if you did not, it's very hard for me to help you going forward. And my fiance also told me, like, hey, stop helping so many people with so much of your time. And so that's how I, you know, quantify if this is worth my time. Like, did you take action? Are you in the position to take action? And did you take action? So I love that.
- [44:48]
Mindy Jensen
Okay, Stephen, this has been such an awesome conversation. I'm so thankful for your time today. Where can people find you online?
- [44:56]
Steven M. Hughes
So they can find me at my website, stephenmhughes.com so that's s t e V e n m like money h u g h e s.com so stephenmhughes.com and then they can also find me on LinkedIn and Instagram. That's where I'm most active. I don't do a lot on social media just because a lot of my work is offline. But, yeah, if people want to connect with me there, feel free to reach out and then on my website as well. I know we talked about affirmations a little bit. If they go to stephenmhughes.com affirmations, they can download the affirmations that I use and that my clients use as well.
- [45:35]
Mindy Jensen
Awesome. And there's another tip I got from Stephen. It's not Mindy M like Mary. It's M like Monday.
- [45:40]
Steven M. Hughes
M like money. Yeah.
- [45:43]
Mindy Jensen
All right, Stephen M. Hughes, thank you so much for your time today. It's always good to chat with you, and we will talk to you again soon.
- [45:50]
Steven M. Hughes
Yes, sounds good. I appreciate y'all. Peace.
- [45:52]
Mindy Jensen
I appreciate you.
- [45:54]
Scott Trench
Thank you. Bye. Bye.
- [45:55]
Mindy Jensen
All right, that wraps up this episode of the BiggerPockets Money podcast. He is the Scotch wrench, and I am Mindy Jensen saying farewell Snowbell.