Should You Choose Coast FI or Go All In on FIRE? - BiggerPockets Money Podcast

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[00:00]
A
Is the all out pursuit of financial independence really the best approach today, or is coastfi a better evolution? Today is going to be a fun discussion and hopefully you'll walk away with a better understanding of which might be the best for you when we contrast my all out pursuit of financial independence at age 25 compared to Evan's pursuit of Coastfi at age 25. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. My name is Scott Trench and welcome. Not with me, as always. With me for the first time is Evan Lawler from the Financial Foundation. He's working towards coastfi and he is the perfect person to beat up or at least contrast, you know, my approach, my all out approach to financial independence at an early age. When I was 25, I was doing things a little differently than Evan. There's overlap and there's differences and I think Evan has a really, really healthy evolution of the approach I was taking 10 years ago now towards my version of financial independence. So without further ado, Evan, welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. I couldn't be more excited to have you guest host today with me and hear your story and your tweaks to financial independence.
[01:07]
B
Thank you so much for having me on, Scott. I am extremely excited to be here and jump into the details and see how our different approaches have evolved over time.
[01:16]
A
Awesome. Well, hopefully this episode is applicable to everybody and anybody. But coastfi, I think, is most impactful for people who start out early in their careers. The earlier you get started, the sooner you can coast, of course. But before we get into that, can you maybe define what Coast Fire is for us, Evan?
[01:32]
B
100%, yeah. Coast fire. I like to think of kind of a hybrid form of financial independence because it's really fi. Not re. So financial independence, but not retiring early. It's front loading your retirement investing such that you reach a point that your investments are projected to grow, such that when you reach retirement age, your portfolio should be able to sustain you in retirement. So you actually spend a lot of your time coasting to retirement where you just cover your day to day expenses, but no longer need to invest towards retirement.
[02:05]
A
I think that there's a lot of appeal to that, right? Hey, I have. My retirement's done. I'm actually set as long as I can just figure things out, you know, you maybe you can get there by 35. I can figure things out for the next 30 years and just kind of relax a little bit with a money perspective. Maybe not take the most demanding job or be there for my Family, if that's something that I'm aspiring to have at some point. But from a skeptic's perspective, does it really result in time freedom? I can hear somebody saying Fire is about actually being able to retire early, and this is not it. What would you say to somebody with that perspective?
[02:37]
B
I would understand. I think you have to start with the end in mind. And I think that if you're a Fire purist, then I would agree with you. I think that, yeah, you are not going to be retiring early if your goal is to pursue Coast Fire. However, it does offer a ton of flexibility and, and I think that as the Fire movement has kind of grown and matured, we can stand on the shoulders of the giants before us and say lots of people reach financial independence and then they find themselves working. You know, they pursue these hobbies and one day someone starts paying them for it. And so I think Coast Fire acknowledges the reality that for many people, especially people who are ambitious enough to pursue financial independence to begin with, will probably be earning money even after they reach that fi number.
[03:20]
A
I think financial independence or the pursuit of financial independence is a spectru. And as we move farther along that spectrum, we gather power back into our lives and take that power away from, for example, the local employer who pays the highest wages in our profession. And I think that's what a lot of your stuff on Instagram in particular seems to talk about. I saw one the other day, was like, you know, how much my savings account impacts my ability to take my lunch break on my terms or whatever. And it's the same, it's the same concept here applied across the spectrum. I think CoastFi is for many people on the journey to financial independence, the first milestone where there's a little bit of that sigh of relief like, I have power over my boss now, I don't need the highest paying job in order to retire. Or, you know, I can begin to expand my, my viewpoint and maybe begin to take more risk or take a little bit more time back in my day. Is that, is that the right way
[04:11]
B
to think about it? I think that's completely right. And the skit you're mentioning, Yeah, I put those together because I think it acknowledges the reality that having money or having investments or a portfolio is not just a number on a scre. How does it actually impact your day to day life? And I think you're exactly right that Coast Fire is really probably the most significant milestone outside of someone who first gets an emergency fund or something like that for financial independence. Coastfire is really that first milestone that I think for a lot of people, they can kind of look around and say, hey, I've bought myself in a way a traditional retirement and I no longer have to contribute to that. Is this what I want to continue doing? Do I need to keep earning 100k or is there something that I find more fulfilling at 50k or 70k?
[04:54]
A
I'll also call out that I think your journey and mine are very similar. If we roll back my, you know, my age to I think you're 26, 27 right now.
[05:02]
B
25.
[05:02]
A
25. Okay. Yeah, so we roll back my age to that point. You know, I'm doing many of the same things you're doing. And I'll also call out that at 35 now with two kids, those activities are very unappealing. Some people with families that are, that are married with kids, you know, under, under five are still able to house hack and live and do the things needed to move towards financial independence, but it's a lot less appealing. And I think that there's a reality in the world of financial independence that it just gets harder in that middle period, especially as the kids, when the kids are below school age. And Coast 5 might be a great proxy target to just take the pressure off. Like, hey, we don't need to race towards true and lasting two and a half million permanently sustainable financial independence with our young kids. We can just be like, are we on track to get to coast guy pretty soon or are we there, we can take a breather and then resume that journey to finishing the play, to true, you know, total financial independence. Maybe once there's a more reasonable set of life conditions that come about. So anyways, all this to preface, I think that coastfi is a great goal here. It's a wonderful starting point, one that many never reach, but a huge milestone that feels much, much more attainable, especially for young people, than Moving to a two and a half million traditional $100,000 a year annual spending phi number here. So let's talk about how to get there as quickly as possible, making $75,000 a year. And one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about this is because I have a very strong opinion on this or had a very strong opinion on this and wrote down exactly how to get to a version of this in Set for Life, which I think you've read here. And I think that after 10 years the world has changed and there's inflation and there's different opportunities and different challenges that people face. And so I'd love to hear your take on that. Like, how does one get to Coastfi as quickly as possible in their 20s in today's world?
[06:48]
B
Yeah, 100%. And just to clarify, I have read Set for Life and I absolutely loved it. So if I can just throw that out there, I think everybody should read it.
[06:54]
A
I think it was almost 10 years ago now. I came up with a hypothesis for how to pursue fire financial independence or a version of that approach, that first million dollars in net worth for somebody starting out in their 20s. And I broke down this ride to financial independence into three buckets, right? The accumulation of the first $25,000. And, and to get there, I figured, hey, you know, if you're, if you're 25 and you have already taken the highest paying job that's available to you, there's not really much leverage on the income front. There's nothing to invest. So how are we going to get ahead? We're going to maybe take a side job, maybe try to generate a little bit of extra income, but really we're going to cut expenses and we're going to cut expenses by focusing on the big three expenses, which is not your daily latte. It's your housing, transportation and food costs. And you keep those costs low by getting a roommate or living in a very cheap place relative to your income. You drive a beater economy vehicle or ideally bike or walk to work and then you pack lunch most of the time. And that's how you save money and entertainment budget. I'm very jealous of you living in Philadelphia, you know, Eagles games. I still have to go to my first Eagles game in the link. I've been to a bunch of away games, but I've actually never go my whole life, never go into an Eagles game at home. That's not the thing to cut right in your budget. That's the thing that life memories are made out of. And that's where we're going to spend a little bit of extra actually, because the cost in those big three are really low. That's going to enable us to accumulate a lot of cash and then we're going to use that cash. I'm a big advocate of accumulating that cash after tax the first few years and foregoing the tax advantages of retirement accounts for a number of reasons. One, when we're in this early part of the journey, we're going to be earning much less, most likely than we are later in the journey. And so the tax opportunity cost is very low relative to doing this. You know, for example, in your 30s or 40s when your career earnings may be much higher. Cash in the bank relative to low expenses is what enables opportunities. That's what allows you to start a business or job hop or take a job that offers much lower base pay but offers equity upside at a company or a job that is mostly commission based or entirely commission based. These things can really ramp your income, but they're unavailable to somebody who spends almost all of their income and must continue to collect that salary to sustain their lifestyle. When I was CEO of BiggerPockets, Upwork was the number one place that we went to hire freelancers to power our business. One of the biggest growth hacks is realizing that you don't have to do it all yourself. Upwork made it easy to bring in the right freelancer when we needed them so that we could stay focused on what we do best. Upwork is a one stop platform to find, hire and pay expert freelancers across web and software development, data and analytics, marketing, business operations and more. It's free to sign up and posting a job is easy. Thousands of growing businesses already trust upwork to hire flexible, high quality freelance talent for everything from one off projects to ongoing support. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's up w o r k.com upwork upwork.com I'm skeptical of a lot of financial products, but life insurance isn't one of them. At least not term life. For the vast majority of you listening, term life is simply the right answer. And the smartest way to buy it isn't one big policy, it's a ladder. Your need for coverage isn't flat, it declines over time. You've got a 30 year mortgage, a couple of young kids, maybe a spouse mid career. In 15 years the mortgage is going to be smaller and the kids are almost launched. So Instead of buying one giant 30 year policy, you'll overpay for you stack a few, say a 10 year, a 20 year and a 30 year layer so your total coverage stacks steps down as your actual obligations step down. You only pay for what you actually need when you need it. Ethos is a platform that helps you find life insurance 100% online. You can get a quote in seconds and apply in minutes. There's no medical exam. You just answer a few health questions. Online you can get up to 3 million in coverage. Some policies are as low as $30 a month. That makes building a ladder genuinely fast. Get your free quote@ethos.com bpmoney that's e t h o s.com bpmoney Application times may vary and rates may vary.
[11:06]
B
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[11:32]
A
okay, so we have our tackling the big three expenses, accumulating cash in particular for the first couple of years, using that to jump to an opportunity that can really turbocharge our income. And then last, we have the long slog of investing accumulation here, right? So as part of that investing accumulation we have our housing decision. I'm a big fan of the house hack. I know that's one that has particularly fallen off in the last 10 years. It's not as easy and obvious as an analysis is. It was for me as a 23, 24 year old in 2014 that was a very easy analysis. Now it's a little harder. Maybe it's easy in Pennsylvania, I don't know. Certainly harder here in Colorado. And then from there it's index funds, the traditional best practices for investing. Now we're going to go through the tax advantaged order of operations once we've accumulated that first few hundred grand or so. Outside of those, we're going to go through that traditional stack and we're going to grind it out until we get to true and lasting financial independence. So that was a lot, right? That's my monologue. I condensed books worth of information into that, but that's the I laid out. I think you're pursuing a version of that with a new twist or different flavors of it. Can you tell me where things have evolved or at least in your mind for how you're going to approach things personally?
[12:40]
B
100%. And I absolutely loved that breakdown. I loved it in Set for Life. And I think that a lot of the same lessons still apply and people could definitely go pursue that. Me personally, on the Coast Fire Journey, there's a lot of similarities and some subtle differences. So I think first off frugality, just like you said in the book and said here, there's no getting around it, right? And I love the way you described it in Set for Life that it's you know, every dollar that you save is like a dollar and 15 cents or $1.25 in increased income because that is real savings in your pocket right now. And I completely agree with your approach that tackling the big three housing, transportation and food are going to really move the needle. And smaller kind of entertainment purchases probably won't move the needle as much. And I think that that's really exciting for young people because they often feel like, well, if I save money that means I can never see my friends or I can never have a fun experience. And that's simply not the case. And I would even go beyond that that I think people that find themselves deep in the weeds of cutting small, expensive are sometimes kidding themselves because you know, maybe you have, you're living in a big place with two guest bedrooms and each day you're miserable on the way to work because you don't stop for a coffee. And, and sure, yeah, you're saving $5, $7 each day, but you'd be far better off probably just cutting those big expenses down a little bit and then enjoying those small luxuries to enrich your life. So frugality. 100% agree. The first difference that I think for the traditional fire approach versus Coast Fire is really taking advantage of those tax advantaged retirement accounts. I think that Coast Fire itself, because all of the money is being earmarked for a traditional retire at least past 59 and a half when current tax law says that we can access those tax advantaged retirement accounts. The advantage in my eyes is that you can really be tax optimal so you can max out that 401k, obviously getting that full company match IRA HSA. And for I think a lot of young people pursuing Coast Fire, that will be all the money that you invest in that year going into those tax advantage accounts. But I will fully acknowledge that you do give up some of that, that flexibility, whether or not you're aiming to start a business or something like that.
[15:08]
A
Awesome. And so do you personally do that? Do you put everything into these retirement accounts and the goal is racing towards the Coast FI number and then kind of pop it up and saying what are the next options from there?
[15:18]
B
Exactly. Yeah, that's my current approach. I started this journey with only my W2 income and I had my emergency fund. I had some operating cash just in my checking account and then every other dollar was going into my tax advantaged retirement accounts. I didn't have any money in brokerages. I wasn't putting any after tax money at all.
[15:38]
A
You're talking about that in past tense, what's present tense?
[15:41]
B
As I'm kind of starting these side bets that, that we've talked about before. So you know, working on my social media campaign and stuff like that and additional income is coming in now I have money in excess of what I can put into these tax advantaged retirement accounts. Now I am starting to build a bit of an after tax position which again that's why I acknowledge, right. If your goal is to, to do, to start a business or to go into a different direction, a non traditional direction, then building up that cash or cash equivalence is very important.
[16:14]
A
So tell me about how are you feeling about your journey with money at the beginning of this process and have you achieved Coast Buy? How are you feeling as you approach or get past your Coast Buy number?
[16:23]
B
Well, I think that it's exciting because it's a spectrum on the way there and each milestone you're building either a larger retirement income or you're pulling your retirement age, your coast fire retirement age forward. So currently I have about $200,000 invested which puts me I think around 65 in the hundred thousand dollar per year income range, inflation adjusted income. And so that is exciting to me because then I know like all right, well even if everything went wrong right now and I could only, my savings rate went to zero, I could only cover my day to day expenses when I get to that retirement age. I already can count on a projected retirement income of $100,000 in inflation adjusted retirement income. So it's really exciting to me and it gives me a lot of peace of mind.
[17:14]
A
How much do you have in your retirement accounts right now that would lead to this hundred thousand? Can you walk us through the math you just shared?
[17:21]
B
So currently I have about 200,000. I think it's $198,000 invested in my tax advantage retirement accounts. And that's basically all the money I have outside of some savings. And so if I were to stop today and allow that money to grow over time, then it would put me around $3 million or something like that and that would put me in the hundred K range for withdrawal rates, rates. And so my goal is to instead continue to grow from 200,000 to 500,000 by contributing about $3,300 per month at 30 with 500k that money is projected to grow to $5,000,000 at age 65 which would yield me a $200,000 per year in inflation adjusted retirement income.
[18:03]
A
That's awesome. I want to go back a moment here and talk about real estate again, because I think that that's the biggest change here. Not real estate specifically, but the I'm going to max out these retirement accounts and get to this CoastFi number and then kind of pop up and look at these next set of options. It sounds like there's actually a little bit of evolution in your particular story from that where there is a little bit more of a prioritization of after tax investments or liquidity because of that optionality that that's starting to come into your life already. But in my case, the rental property math was overwhelmingly powerful. It was way better than, you know, in any average conditions than these 401k or tax advantaged accounts at that moment in time. Right. Because I put down $12,000 on a $240,000 duplex here in the Denver area. I got a 95% leveraged mortgage. The payment, I'm now I'm reaching. What was, what the heck was the payment? It was somewhere in the like twelve hundred dollar range. I'll have to go look that up. I've talked about this a million times and I'm forgetting the number now. And then the other side rented for about 1100 and I had a roommate paying some money. And so that becomes very compelling math. Right. I think was like 1400, 15, 1550 somewhere in that range. All in for the payment. Property taxes, insurance, all that kind of stuff. So that's a really compelling story for financials. Right. That offsets rent. That's a direct cash inflow. There's an amortization going on, there's appreciation that's highly leveraged. It's less risky. To me, Philadelphia today, the greater Philadelphia area today offers the same if not better opportunities on paper that Denver offered in 2014. And yet that is not a priority for you. I think you mentioned you're actually going right before we're talking about this. You mentioned you're living in an apartment right now and you're going to rent another apartment. You're going to upgrade, a big upgrade going from a one bed to a two bed, 600 square feet to 7, 750 or so, right?
[19:49]
B
Yeah.
[19:49]
A
Classic by approach there. Walk me through. Why isn't real estate appealing to you in a lot of other gen zers right now?
[19:56]
B
I think we're told and we've been hearing a lot that like real estate is really expensive. And I think that you're right that there is opportunity for real estate investment. I think that it's just not qu so obvious and maybe I think I would have to develop a certain level of expertise in order to pursue those opportunities. And it's not quite so clear cut as maybe it was in the past. That's just my perception. I don't, I don't have like substantial data to back that up. But I think for me personally the answer is just simplicity. That it's. I'm putting money in broad market index funds, they're in tax advantaged retirement accounts. I'm doing simple, simple math, living in a cheap apartment. I'm not dealing with tenants, I'm not working with loan officers. I am just doing the simple things as best as I can. And that is really appealing to me. And I think that real estate could be an exciting opportunity in the future. Especially because when you get into this fire world, there's so many people that are so passionate about the way that real estate can cash flow and lower your expenses. But I think for me personally, just as someone getting involved in it early on, and for a lot of my peers who are young people starting to get interested in the ideas of financial independence, there's something so exciting about the fact of just earning a W2 income, going through a series of investment steps, savings, investing certain accounts and just following that path forward, never having to deal with those physical assets or anything like that, just living in an apartment wherever you want to live. It's exciting, awesome.
[21:31]
A
Love it. I guess the question then comes up is are there going to be any side bets in your case, you have a Instagram and other things you're working on, which I think were for a while very popular, but not generating any income. Maybe they are generating some income now that's beginning to be more interesting. Walk me through what is the side hustle or the opportunity that is accessible to someone who's 25 today, more broadly, if not the real estate, because surely folks that are pursuing fi want some other outlet beyond their, their day job and the investment approach. In many cases, what do you think are the places to go and look for those opportunities?
[22:06]
B
Yeah, that's such a great question because I think so much of someone's financial independence journey is dictated by their savings rate. And we talked about the frugality, size of things, cutting expenses, but the other side of that same coin is growing income. And I think a lot of people, it's not talked about enough. And so something that's exciting about today's economy versus when you were talking about your starting Your journey in 2014 is that you have such a large gig economy today. So I know lots of people who do like side hustles, whether it's Uber or something like that, and they can earn income that way. But I think also something that's really exciting is freelancing. So one of my friends is a video editor and she is constantly getting, you know, requests from different people. She has a portfolio, it's out there on her LinkedIn and, and she's a very talented video editor. And there is such a desire for people to edit a couple videos here or kind of be a part time video editor. And I think that that applies to a lot of different roles. Whether it's consulting in your professional role, that that has really evolved in a lot of ways, especially with virtual work. So I think for young people there's, there's a lot of opportunities to seek out those extra ways to earn income which can really supercharge your financial independence journey.
[23:25]
A
I think that makes sense. It makes intuitive sense to me. Like in 2014, those opportunities were there. They were just a little harder to access, a little like the infrastructure was not quite in play to make it very efficient or easy to translate additional time into money. And I tried multiple times. Maybe I was just bad at it as another possibility. Right. I was bad at those things and better at the real estate component. It seems like it's believable to me that today that infrastructure is so much better developed in the gig economy that that's just the play. It's just so efficient to turn in time into reasonably high, high output dollars per hour if that's what you want. In addition to your W2 job, making real estate, for example, maybe a little less appealing for a lot of folks. There's many more options that are at your fingertips, I imagine you, Evan, right now than buying a duplex. That's one option, maybe even attractive one among many other attractive options to generate additional income.
[24:21]
B
And I think it's never been easier. Also outside of just applying your existing professional skills, that if you've ever wanted to start a business, it's never been easier to put together a website, develop a set of skills that you're interested in putting out there in the market. It's so easy these days to do that. As I started to do it for my social media platforms, I'm constantly encouraging my friends now that if you have something that you love to do that you come home, you can't stop thinking about at work, you're doing it a little bit at lunch, and you're just enjoying it so much, try to make that a business. There's so much opportunity to do that now, and it's really never been easier.
[24:56]
A
Okay, so I got another question here about coastfi, right? We talk about the middle class trap here on BiggerPockets Money, which some people take issue with. The middle class trap. It means that it's not really a middle class thing. It means that you have a lot of your wealth in your 401k, your tax advantaged accounts, you have your home equity and that's, that's the vast majority of your wealth. Maybe, maybe you only have a few thousand dollars or it could only last a few months without wage paying work without having to tap into those areas. That's a real problem for a lot of people who listen to personal finance podcasts, right? I've done everything right. 15 years have gone by and I'm a millionaire or close to it, but it doesn't feel day to day like I actually have this optionality in my life. And there's many ways to escape this, right? There's psychological reset like, oh, I'm a millionaire, I can just move to Coastfi. There's mechanics like accessing, you know, money via 72T or you know, Sepp substantially equal periodic payment distributions or Roth conversions, for example. But in practice, we also find that those are very unappealing in the moment in many real life situations, right? So yes, you can do a Roth conversion or a substantially equal periodic payment, but if you do, you're going to be taking that 72t for decades and that's going to limit your optionality, actually. Especially if you want to stay under modified adjusted gross income cliffs to qualify for health care subsidies, for example, or, you know, the roth conversion or those 72 distributions are unappealing if, for example, one spouse is still working, that doesn't quite cover the bills. Have you thought at all about this? Does this worry you from a Coast Fire perspective as a limiting some kind of options at that point in your life?
[26:31]
B
I think that that's a very real risk. I've heard you guys talk about that a lot and I think that it's super interesting. I think that Coast Fire, like you mentioned is kind of like a psychological reframe that people maybe do have more flexibility than they're acknowledging. And if they put together all their retirement investment assets and did the math on their Coast Fire number, they would realize, well, you know, my savings rate could be hovering around 5% or even zero, all the way down to zero, and I would have plenty when I reach retirement. And I think that psychological reframe could help a lot. But I Completely agree that sometimes that's easier said than done, even for myself. And I think that the simple answer to that is kind of like this in my mind like a super optimal allocation, you know, is that you have, you're maxing out these tax advantage retirement accounts and then you're also building up like a large financial Runway, a big cash, cash equivalent, high yield savings account bond, something like that that you can access immediately and that gives you that flexibility. In addition, with the psychological understanding that you've already bought your traditional retirement income.
[27:40]
A
I also think like coastfi is, I got to just keep grounding myself here. It's just a milestone, right? It's like it's, I would imagine almost nobody stops entirely at Coast Buy, right? And then I'm done. It's, it's a milestone. I'm going to keep accumulating. I have the option at least to take my foot off the gas, pursue other things, take additional risks, begin doing things differently. But I know that I've checked that box for retirement. I think we have to keep grounding it in that context. And I think that many people actually. Ramit Sethi had a great post on this the other day that I thought was fantastic. It was about a couple that was like, we live paycheck to paycheck as a high income earners, but they also maxed out two 401ks, did two backdoor Roth contributions, maxed out the HSA. They just didn't accumulate anything else beyond that. And they, they were like, I live, we live paycheck to paycheck. And that's America today for the community of people who listen to personal finance podcasts. Whereas other folks in this country who are struggling, they truly do live paycheck to paycheck. And that that perception of your reality is really different from person to person when it comes to money, which I find, I find fascinating.
[28:46]
B
Yeah, and you mentioned, Scott, that it's a milestone, which I agree with in some ways. And I think that if you're on this path and you're enjoying your, your path to financial independ, it could be a milestone where you reach coastfi and then you're like, okay, well maybe I want to pursue traditional financial independence and retire early and start to build this after tax position. And I'm going to do that from the job that I'm working right now. But I don't necessarily think that will be the case for everybody that I think that when you do reach that coast Fire number, you can say, all right, I've been earning $10,000 per month. And I've been investing 4 to $5,000 worth of that. But now that I've reached this Coast Fire number and I no longer need to contribute to my traditional retirement age, can I go earn 5,000 on my own? Can I go start my own business? Can I go take a different job? So I think it is a milestone in some ways, but it also could be kind of a fork in the road for some people where they truly do take a different path now that they've reached this.
[29:43]
A
Awesome. So tell me about what your lifestyle looks like day to day. As someone journeying to coastfi for me,
[29:49]
B
like we talked about, I really aim in tackling kind of the big three expenses that I have. And I try not to worry so much about the smaller things. So I live in the suburbs of Philadelphia. There's lots of great suburbs with exciting towns. I live in one of them. Me and my girlfriend share a really small, really old apartment. You know, it's got different issues. It's got no amenities. We have a communal laundry room. None of that bothers me. I have a 2015 Nissan Sentra.
[30:17]
A
Nissan Sentra is a rookie move. The Corolla, the OG vehicle.
[30:21]
B
Time will tell. But the car squeaks as I leave the parking lot. Don't care. Air conditioning doesn't work. I occasionally bring an ice cube that I keep in my cup holder to rub on myself to keep cool. So none of that bothers me. But you know, my friend has a birthday party, we have no problem going to the birthday party, bringing presents, going to out to the bars, hanging out with friends. So those things we don't worry about so much. We go to the Phillies games. But the big expenses we try to keep as low as possible because I found that really moves the needle. And in addition, like we discussed, I'm working on my side hustle and also trying to grow my W2 income.
[30:57]
A
So day to day life looks pretty good. Except for the commute in the summer.
[31:01]
B
Yes. Yeah, the commute in the summer is pretty brutal.
[31:03]
A
Is it bikeable?
[31:04]
B
It's not bikable.
[31:05]
A
Okay, fair enough, fair enough. So, I mean, it sounds pretty good. And I will say that, you know, those are the things that really matter. A lot of the stuff that I find the best from you though is that you seem to cost out the everyday expenses better than almost anybody I've ever met. You know, for example, you're like, say, have a low cost breakfast with me and you'll cost out the per egg cost, the slice of cheese, the Bagel. Tell me about what, what got you into, into doing that analysis.
[31:30]
B
Yeah, so I make these little videos are about a minute long where I'll share, spend a low cost morning with me and everything that I'll do, I'll break down, down to the penny, which I really started more as kind of an exercise, right, to kind of show people like, what do these things actually cost that you're consuming each morning? It's not something that I'll do, you know, like a Sunday morning, I'm taking a bite of an apple and I'll think, oh, six cent bite there. It really has been very eye opening to me, especially comparing like the cost of eating at home. You know, you, you put together like a delicious breakfast at home. It might be $4 at most, like $6 compared to eating out could be $20. And so in my mind, it gives people something to think about. It gives them a way of considering their own costs, even down to the minute detail.
[32:18]
A
As a parent now there's like a different math. I haven't really thought about this, but I have to think about like, okay, the banana here has gone three quarters of the way down. My infants, you know, something like that. I guess I'm having the last, you know, third of this thing. Here's a pancake that's mostly eaten. I guess that's, you know, that one's for me there. So I have to cost those out with my family. It'll probably be fairly entertaining little video like yours.
[32:40]
B
Yeah, it's tons of fun. You're like the cleanup crew.
[32:42]
A
Okay, so I thought it'd be fun to end today's episode by highlighting the similarities and differences in our two approaches to moving toward financial independence at age 25. And so I'll go first and I'll say, When I was 25, I was pursuing all out financial independence. It was an all out pursuit of financial independence. And I did that by focusing on the big three expenses, housing, transportation and food. I took that to the next level by focusing on house hacking, accumulating almost all of my wealth after tax so that I could buy a duplex and get my housing costs to zero or as close as possible to zero. I was actively exploring side hustles and alternative income streams. I focused on growing my main income source not by increasing my salary, but by joining a startup and seeking at risk compensation, including equity and sales opportunities. I was reading dozens, maybe approaching 50 business books a year and networking as much as I possibly could in the pursuit of luck. Opportunities that would come my way as a result of that. But I also made time for plenty of hobbies. I played rugby and frolicked as the word I'll use around Denver doing 20 something things with this kind of work hard, play hard mentality. So Evan, how does that contrast or compare to your situation right now as a 25 year old in Philly?
[33:58]
B
I think like we said, there's lots of similarities, but there's also some differences. So my approach is definitely more reaching that Coast Fire milestone and then enjoying that financial flexibility and allowing it to help me pivot. So. Totally agree. First off, on focusing on the big three expenses. Those are the things that really move the needle. Housing, transportation, food. The difference I think initially is that as the housing market has changed a little bit, I've chosen to pursue more of a super cheap apartment living with my girlfriend, splitting those expenses versus the house hack with the roommates. I also focused on growing my W2 income. Two sides of the same coin there, expenses and income increases that savings rate. As we discussed, building a large cash position while also pursuing that Coast Fire gives kind of that immediate flexibility and that financial Runway that we've talked about. Also pursuing plenty of hobbies. I haven't heard that frolicking before, but I really like that I use the term meandering the other day or stopping and smelling the roses. So totally agree there. You have to balance enjoying today with preparing for tomorrow and with the goal of then reaching that Coast Fire milestone and allowing that to be a crossroads of either starting a business or doing a job pivot. But altogether focusing on prioritizing flexibility with the goal of achieving a modest level of financial flexibility rather than that true financial independence.
[35:25]
A
Awesome. And I love your approach. I have so much respect for this evolution and this tweak on it. That's why I was so excited to invite you on the show to co host with us today and share this. The differences in the way that we're approaching things are just wonderful and you're absolutely crushing it and are contributing a tremendous amount to the financial independence world with the example that you set here at 25. So congratulations on everything you've achieved there. And I love the contrast and the different approaches, the different right answers to this challenge.
[35:51]
B
Thank you so much. I really appreciate that and I totally agree. I love all the different flavors of fi and I think that they can apply to a bunch of different people. And the bigger we can make the community, in my opinion, the better.
[36:02]
A
Awesome, man. Well, where can people find out more about you, Evan?
[36:04]
B
You can find me across all social media platforms at the financial foundation where I share my frugal living, my pursuit of coast fire, and all the things I've learned about personal finance.
[36:16]
A
Well, Evan, thank you so much for joining us on BiggerPockets Money. I think this is the third time you've been on the show. Hopefully more to come. So really appreciate it and have a wonderful rest of your week.
[36:24]
B
Thanks, Scott. You too.
[36:25]
A
All right, as always, we have a budding website. I think that's the right word, budding website. @biggerpocketsmoney.com I am building a big chunk of this with a couple of helpers here and having a blast doing it. It's still under construction, but every week we're releasing new cool things. We've got a couple of calculators there. One of the ones that I did last week that was actually pretty cool was a budget calculator. Not like a random spreadsheet where you put numbers in. But I actually went through and compiled a bunch of databases and I tried to get a picture of what people like you spend, people of your same household, your same income quintile, the location that you live in, geography. I went to great lengths to get childcare costs if you have childcare to help you understand if those are reasonable in your location. So check that out@bigger biggerpocketsmoney.com budget and tell me what you think about that and give me any feedback for evolutions or the next steps on it. I think it's pretty cool and will be pretty helpful. That's just one of many tools that I've been hard at work building and having a absolute blast building. All right, we'll see you guys Friday. That wraps up this episode of the BiggerPockets Money podcast. He is Evan Lawler and I am Scott Trench. Saying let's fly pieces.

Summary6 min read

BiggerPockets Money Podcast: Should You Choose Coast FI or Go All In on FIRE?

Date: July 15, 2026
Hosts: Scott Trench (BiggerPockets)
Guest/Co-Host: Evan Lawler (The Financial Foundation)

Overview: Episode Theme and Purpose

This episode delves into an in-depth contrast between two approaches to financial independence: the intense, all-in pursuit of FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early), and the more flexible, increasingly popular model of Coast FI (Financial Independence, but “coasting” to retirement rather than pushing for early exit from the workforce). Host Scott Trench shares his “all out” FIRE journey from his 20s, while guest co-host Evan Lawler, age 25, shares his Coast FI strategy, offering a generational perspective on how the financial landscape and principles have shifted. The episode covers definitions, philosophies, practical tactics, investment priorities, and lifestyle tradeoffs for each approach.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

What is Coast FI? How Is It Different?

Definition (01:32):
- Evan: “Coast fire. I like to think of it as a hybrid form of financial independence because it's really FI, not RE. It’s front loading your retirement investing so that, by a certain point, your investments are projected to grow enough to sustain retirement—then you just coast, covering only day-to-day expenses.” (01:32)
The appeal is in flexibility—not about retiring early, but securing retirement and reclaiming life choices sooner (02:04, 03:19).
Recognizes that many ambitious FIRE-goers continue working, often finding passion income post-FI (02:36).

Power, Optionality, and Psychological Freedom

Financial independence is a spectrum—each milestone (like Coast FI) gives you more power and freedom of choice, especially over your career and lifestyle (03:19).
Scott: “Coast FI is…the first milestone where there's that sigh of relief: ‘I have power over my boss now. I don’t need the highest paying job to retire.’” (03:19)
Frugality in the big three (housing, transportation, food) is foundational for both approaches (06:54, 12:39).

Practical Steps for Getting There Fast in Your 20s

Scott’s “Set for Life” Formula (05:02–12:39):

Stage 1: Accumulate the first $25,000 by ruthless optimization of housing, transportation, and food (cut expenses by living with roommates, driving cheap, bringing lunch).
Stage 2: Bank after-tax cash early—liquidity creates flexibility and opportunity (like house hacking or changing jobs), even at the expense of some tax benefits.
Stage 3: Once income grows and cash cushion established, pursue traditional investing and grind toward full FIRE/retirement number.
Avoiding burnout by not cutting meaningful experiences (e.g., Scott making the point to still budget for Eagles games).

Evan’s Evolved Coast FI Approach (12:39):

Major points of overlap:
- Frugality and the big three still essential.
- Quality experiences and personal happiness, not deprivation.
- Hustle to increase W2 and side income.
Key Coast FI differences:
- Tax-Advantaged Focus: Max out 401k, HSA, IRA—as early contributions compound toward retirement (15:18).
- Simple Investing: Avoid real estate as a beginner, opting for broad index funds (“It’s so appealing to skip the headaches of tenants and just automate…” – 19:56).
- Liquidity Tradeoff: Recognizes need for some after-tax liquidity if side hustles or entrepreneurial opportunities arise (15:41, 21:31).
- Building Career Optionality: Once Coast FI is reached, considers shifting to business, passion project, or more flexible work.

Real Estate Debate: House Hacking vs. Simplicity

Scott: “For me, the rental property math was overwhelmingly powerful—buying a duplex offset rent, gave cash flow, appreciation, amortization…” (18:03)
Evan: “For me, it’s just simplicity. All money goes into index funds…I’m not dealing with tenants or loan officers…I just want to live simply and invest.” (19:56)
Gen Z’s preference for simplicity and mobility, plus higher perceived barriers to real estate.

The New Gig Economy

It’s never been easier to take on freelancing or gig-based side hustles—directly translating extra time into extra income (22:06, 24:21).
Technology has created more accessible outlets for building businesses or earning supplemental income (“If you have a hobby or skill, it’s never been easier to try to make it a business.” – 24:21).

The “Middle-Class Trap” and Psychological Hurdles

Many people reach net worth milestones (e.g., millionaire status by age 40) but feel “trapped,” with most wealth illiquid in retirement accounts and home equity (24:55).
Scott: “I’ve done everything right, but it doesn’t feel day-to-day like I actually have optionality in my life.” Strategies to avoid this include building liquid investments and conducting “psychological resets” around one’s financial reality (24:55, 27:39).
Genuinely understanding Coast FI as chance for a lifestyle/career pivot, not destination (28:45-29:42).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the psychological benefit of Coast FI:
Scott: “Coast FI is for many people…the first milestone where there's a sigh of relief: ‘I have power over my boss now, I don’t need the highest paying job in order to retire.’” (03:19)
On the evolving real estate landscape:
Evan: “I think for me personally the answer is just simplicity…I am just doing the simple things as best as I can…and that is really appealing to me.” (19:56)
On spending priorities:
Evan: “If you’re living in a big place with two guest bedrooms and each day you’re miserable on the way to work because you don’t stop for coffee, you’re better off just cutting those big expenses down a little and enjoying those small luxuries.” (12:39)
On modern side hustling:
Evan: “It's never been easier to put together a website, develop a set of skills…if you have a hobby or skill, try to make that a side business. There’s so much opportunity now.” (24:21)
On day-to-day life:
Evan: “I live in one of [Philadelphia’s] suburbs. Me and my girlfriend share a really small, really old apartment…no amenities…but we don’t worry about that, we enjoy going out with friends, going to the Phillies games.” (29:48)

Timestamps for Key Segments

Definition and Philosophy of Coast FI: 01:32–04:54
Scott’s “Set for Life” FIRE Playbook: 05:02–12:39
Evan’s Coast FI Tactics & Tax Optimization: 12:39–15:41
Discussion: Real Estate vs. Index Fund Simplicity: 18:03–21:31
Gig Economy and Side Hustle Opportunities: 22:06–24:21
Middle-Class Trap & Liquidity Problems: 24:55–29:42
Lifestyle Snapshots & Frugal Living: 29:48–32:18
Comparing 25-year-old FIRE vs. Coast FI mindsets: 32:41–35:24
Closing Reflections on Different Paths to FI: 35:24–36:16

Lifestyle Examples & Everyday Frugality

Evan consistently breaks down “the big three” expenses, prefers frugal but happy living, and even posts detailed breakdowns of daily meals to show “what breakfast actually costs down to the penny.” (31:30)
Enjoying small luxuries and social life while maintaining long-term focus on low fixed expenses. (“We go to birthday parties, Phillies games…but we keep major costs low.” – 29:48)

Conclusion: Two Valid Paths to FI

Scott’s Approach: Aggressive, after-tax wealth-building, house hacking, startup and equity focus, diversified side hustles.
Evan’s Approach: Frugal, tax-optimized, index fund simplicity, immediate career flexibility upon hitting Coast FI milestone, maintaining options for eventual business or lifestyle change.
Both agree: The journey is a spectrum, milestones like Coast FI can be forks in the road, and flexibility and happiness are key. The financial independence community benefits from many “flavors” and evolving strategies.
Find Evan: Social media @thefinancialfoundation for practical frugal living and Coast FI insights (36:04).

Loading summary

Transcript57 lines

[00:00]
A
Is the all out pursuit of financial independence really the best approach today, or is coastfi a better evolution? Today is going to be a fun discussion and hopefully you'll walk away with a better understanding of which might be the best for you when we contrast my all out pursuit of financial independence at age 25 compared to Evan's pursuit of Coastfi at age 25. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. My name is Scott Trench and welcome. Not with me, as always. With me for the first time is Evan Lawler from the Financial Foundation. He's working towards coastfi and he is the perfect person to beat up or at least contrast, you know, my approach, my all out approach to financial independence at an early age. When I was 25, I was doing things a little differently than Evan. There's overlap and there's differences and I think Evan has a really, really healthy evolution of the approach I was taking 10 years ago now towards my version of financial independence. So without further ado, Evan, welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. I couldn't be more excited to have you guest host today with me and hear your story and your tweaks to financial independence.
[01:07]
B
Thank you so much for having me on, Scott. I am extremely excited to be here and jump into the details and see how our different approaches have evolved over time.
[01:16]
A
Awesome. Well, hopefully this episode is applicable to everybody and anybody. But coastfi, I think, is most impactful for people who start out early in their careers. The earlier you get started, the sooner you can coast, of course. But before we get into that, can you maybe define what Coast Fire is for us, Evan?
[01:32]
B
100%, yeah. Coast fire. I like to think of kind of a hybrid form of financial independence because it's really fi. Not re. So financial independence, but not retiring early. It's front loading your retirement investing such that you reach a point that your investments are projected to grow, such that when you reach retirement age, your portfolio should be able to sustain you in retirement. So you actually spend a lot of your time coasting to retirement where you just cover your day to day expenses, but no longer need to invest towards retirement.
[02:05]
A
I think that there's a lot of appeal to that, right? Hey, I have. My retirement's done. I'm actually set as long as I can just figure things out, you know, you maybe you can get there by 35. I can figure things out for the next 30 years and just kind of relax a little bit with a money perspective. Maybe not take the most demanding job or be there for my Family, if that's something that I'm aspiring to have at some point. But from a skeptic's perspective, does it really result in time freedom? I can hear somebody saying Fire is about actually being able to retire early, and this is not it. What would you say to somebody with that perspective?
[02:37]
B
I would understand. I think you have to start with the end in mind. And I think that if you're a Fire purist, then I would agree with you. I think that, yeah, you are not going to be retiring early if your goal is to pursue Coast Fire. However, it does offer a ton of flexibility and, and I think that as the Fire movement has kind of grown and matured, we can stand on the shoulders of the giants before us and say lots of people reach financial independence and then they find themselves working. You know, they pursue these hobbies and one day someone starts paying them for it. And so I think Coast Fire acknowledges the reality that for many people, especially people who are ambitious enough to pursue financial independence to begin with, will probably be earning money even after they reach that fi number.
[03:20]
A
I think financial independence or the pursuit of financial independence is a spectru. And as we move farther along that spectrum, we gather power back into our lives and take that power away from, for example, the local employer who pays the highest wages in our profession. And I think that's what a lot of your stuff on Instagram in particular seems to talk about. I saw one the other day, was like, you know, how much my savings account impacts my ability to take my lunch break on my terms or whatever. And it's the same, it's the same concept here applied across the spectrum. I think CoastFi is for many people on the journey to financial independence, the first milestone where there's a little bit of that sigh of relief like, I have power over my boss now, I don't need the highest paying job in order to retire. Or, you know, I can begin to expand my, my viewpoint and maybe begin to take more risk or take a little bit more time back in my day. Is that, is that the right way
[04:11]
B
to think about it? I think that's completely right. And the skit you're mentioning, Yeah, I put those together because I think it acknowledges the reality that having money or having investments or a portfolio is not just a number on a scre. How does it actually impact your day to day life? And I think you're exactly right that Coast Fire is really probably the most significant milestone outside of someone who first gets an emergency fund or something like that for financial independence. Coastfire is really that first milestone that I think for a lot of people, they can kind of look around and say, hey, I've bought myself in a way a traditional retirement and I no longer have to contribute to that. Is this what I want to continue doing? Do I need to keep earning 100k or is there something that I find more fulfilling at 50k or 70k?
[04:54]
A
I'll also call out that I think your journey and mine are very similar. If we roll back my, you know, my age to I think you're 26, 27 right now.
[05:02]
B
25.
[05:02]
A
25. Okay. Yeah, so we roll back my age to that point. You know, I'm doing many of the same things you're doing. And I'll also call out that at 35 now with two kids, those activities are very unappealing. Some people with families that are, that are married with kids, you know, under, under five are still able to house hack and live and do the things needed to move towards financial independence, but it's a lot less appealing. And I think that there's a reality in the world of financial independence that it just gets harder in that middle period, especially as the kids, when the kids are below school age. And Coast 5 might be a great proxy target to just take the pressure off. Like, hey, we don't need to race towards true and lasting two and a half million permanently sustainable financial independence with our young kids. We can just be like, are we on track to get to coast guy pretty soon or are we there, we can take a breather and then resume that journey to finishing the play, to true, you know, total financial independence. Maybe once there's a more reasonable set of life conditions that come about. So anyways, all this to preface, I think that coastfi is a great goal here. It's a wonderful starting point, one that many never reach, but a huge milestone that feels much, much more attainable, especially for young people, than Moving to a two and a half million traditional $100,000 a year annual spending phi number here. So let's talk about how to get there as quickly as possible, making $75,000 a year. And one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about this is because I have a very strong opinion on this or had a very strong opinion on this and wrote down exactly how to get to a version of this in Set for Life, which I think you've read here. And I think that after 10 years the world has changed and there's inflation and there's different opportunities and different challenges that people face. And so I'd love to hear your take on that. Like, how does one get to Coastfi as quickly as possible in their 20s in today's world?
[06:48]
B
Yeah, 100%. And just to clarify, I have read Set for Life and I absolutely loved it. So if I can just throw that out there, I think everybody should read it.
[06:54]
A
I think it was almost 10 years ago now. I came up with a hypothesis for how to pursue fire financial independence or a version of that approach, that first million dollars in net worth for somebody starting out in their 20s. And I broke down this ride to financial independence into three buckets, right? The accumulation of the first $25,000. And, and to get there, I figured, hey, you know, if you're, if you're 25 and you have already taken the highest paying job that's available to you, there's not really much leverage on the income front. There's nothing to invest. So how are we going to get ahead? We're going to maybe take a side job, maybe try to generate a little bit of extra income, but really we're going to cut expenses and we're going to cut expenses by focusing on the big three expenses, which is not your daily latte. It's your housing, transportation and food costs. And you keep those costs low by getting a roommate or living in a very cheap place relative to your income. You drive a beater economy vehicle or ideally bike or walk to work and then you pack lunch most of the time. And that's how you save money and entertainment budget. I'm very jealous of you living in Philadelphia, you know, Eagles games. I still have to go to my first Eagles game in the link. I've been to a bunch of away games, but I've actually never go my whole life, never go into an Eagles game at home. That's not the thing to cut right in your budget. That's the thing that life memories are made out of. And that's where we're going to spend a little bit of extra actually, because the cost in those big three are really low. That's going to enable us to accumulate a lot of cash and then we're going to use that cash. I'm a big advocate of accumulating that cash after tax the first few years and foregoing the tax advantages of retirement accounts for a number of reasons. One, when we're in this early part of the journey, we're going to be earning much less, most likely than we are later in the journey. And so the tax opportunity cost is very low relative to doing this. You know, for example, in your 30s or 40s when your career earnings may be much higher. Cash in the bank relative to low expenses is what enables opportunities. That's what allows you to start a business or job hop or take a job that offers much lower base pay but offers equity upside at a company or a job that is mostly commission based or entirely commission based. These things can really ramp your income, but they're unavailable to somebody who spends almost all of their income and must continue to collect that salary to sustain their lifestyle. When I was CEO of BiggerPockets, Upwork was the number one place that we went to hire freelancers to power our business. One of the biggest growth hacks is realizing that you don't have to do it all yourself. Upwork made it easy to bring in the right freelancer when we needed them so that we could stay focused on what we do best. Upwork is a one stop platform to find, hire and pay expert freelancers across web and software development, data and analytics, marketing, business operations and more. It's free to sign up and posting a job is easy. Thousands of growing businesses already trust upwork to hire flexible, high quality freelance talent for everything from one off projects to ongoing support. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's up w o r k.com upwork upwork.com I'm skeptical of a lot of financial products, but life insurance isn't one of them. At least not term life. For the vast majority of you listening, term life is simply the right answer. And the smartest way to buy it isn't one big policy, it's a ladder. Your need for coverage isn't flat, it declines over time. You've got a 30 year mortgage, a couple of young kids, maybe a spouse mid career. In 15 years the mortgage is going to be smaller and the kids are almost launched. So Instead of buying one giant 30 year policy, you'll overpay for you stack a few, say a 10 year, a 20 year and a 30 year layer so your total coverage stacks steps down as your actual obligations step down. You only pay for what you actually need when you need it. Ethos is a platform that helps you find life insurance 100% online. You can get a quote in seconds and apply in minutes. There's no medical exam. You just answer a few health questions. Online you can get up to 3 million in coverage. Some policies are as low as $30 a month. That makes building a ladder genuinely fast. Get your free quote@ethos.com bpmoney that's e t h o s.com bpmoney Application times may vary and rates may vary.
[11:06]
B
This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies. 18
[11:32]
A
okay, so we have our tackling the big three expenses, accumulating cash in particular for the first couple of years, using that to jump to an opportunity that can really turbocharge our income. And then last, we have the long slog of investing accumulation here, right? So as part of that investing accumulation we have our housing decision. I'm a big fan of the house hack. I know that's one that has particularly fallen off in the last 10 years. It's not as easy and obvious as an analysis is. It was for me as a 23, 24 year old in 2014 that was a very easy analysis. Now it's a little harder. Maybe it's easy in Pennsylvania, I don't know. Certainly harder here in Colorado. And then from there it's index funds, the traditional best practices for investing. Now we're going to go through the tax advantaged order of operations once we've accumulated that first few hundred grand or so. Outside of those, we're going to go through that traditional stack and we're going to grind it out until we get to true and lasting financial independence. So that was a lot, right? That's my monologue. I condensed books worth of information into that, but that's the I laid out. I think you're pursuing a version of that with a new twist or different flavors of it. Can you tell me where things have evolved or at least in your mind for how you're going to approach things personally?
[12:40]
B
100%. And I absolutely loved that breakdown. I loved it in Set for Life. And I think that a lot of the same lessons still apply and people could definitely go pursue that. Me personally, on the Coast Fire Journey, there's a lot of similarities and some subtle differences. So I think first off frugality, just like you said in the book and said here, there's no getting around it, right? And I love the way you described it in Set for Life that it's you know, every dollar that you save is like a dollar and 15 cents or $1.25 in increased income because that is real savings in your pocket right now. And I completely agree with your approach that tackling the big three housing, transportation and food are going to really move the needle. And smaller kind of entertainment purchases probably won't move the needle as much. And I think that that's really exciting for young people because they often feel like, well, if I save money that means I can never see my friends or I can never have a fun experience. And that's simply not the case. And I would even go beyond that that I think people that find themselves deep in the weeds of cutting small, expensive are sometimes kidding themselves because you know, maybe you have, you're living in a big place with two guest bedrooms and each day you're miserable on the way to work because you don't stop for a coffee. And, and sure, yeah, you're saving $5, $7 each day, but you'd be far better off probably just cutting those big expenses down a little bit and then enjoying those small luxuries to enrich your life. So frugality. 100% agree. The first difference that I think for the traditional fire approach versus Coast Fire is really taking advantage of those tax advantaged retirement accounts. I think that Coast Fire itself, because all of the money is being earmarked for a traditional retire at least past 59 and a half when current tax law says that we can access those tax advantaged retirement accounts. The advantage in my eyes is that you can really be tax optimal so you can max out that 401k, obviously getting that full company match IRA HSA. And for I think a lot of young people pursuing Coast Fire, that will be all the money that you invest in that year going into those tax advantage accounts. But I will fully acknowledge that you do give up some of that, that flexibility, whether or not you're aiming to start a business or something like that.
[15:08]
A
Awesome. And so do you personally do that? Do you put everything into these retirement accounts and the goal is racing towards the Coast FI number and then kind of pop it up and saying what are the next options from there?
[15:18]
B
Exactly. Yeah, that's my current approach. I started this journey with only my W2 income and I had my emergency fund. I had some operating cash just in my checking account and then every other dollar was going into my tax advantaged retirement accounts. I didn't have any money in brokerages. I wasn't putting any after tax money at all.
[15:38]
A
You're talking about that in past tense, what's present tense?
[15:41]
B
As I'm kind of starting these side bets that, that we've talked about before. So you know, working on my social media campaign and stuff like that and additional income is coming in now I have money in excess of what I can put into these tax advantaged retirement accounts. Now I am starting to build a bit of an after tax position which again that's why I acknowledge, right. If your goal is to, to do, to start a business or to go into a different direction, a non traditional direction, then building up that cash or cash equivalence is very important.
[16:14]
A
So tell me about how are you feeling about your journey with money at the beginning of this process and have you achieved Coast Buy? How are you feeling as you approach or get past your Coast Buy number?
[16:23]
B
Well, I think that it's exciting because it's a spectrum on the way there and each milestone you're building either a larger retirement income or you're pulling your retirement age, your coast fire retirement age forward. So currently I have about $200,000 invested which puts me I think around 65 in the hundred thousand dollar per year income range, inflation adjusted income. And so that is exciting to me because then I know like all right, well even if everything went wrong right now and I could only, my savings rate went to zero, I could only cover my day to day expenses when I get to that retirement age. I already can count on a projected retirement income of $100,000 in inflation adjusted retirement income. So it's really exciting to me and it gives me a lot of peace of mind.
[17:14]
A
How much do you have in your retirement accounts right now that would lead to this hundred thousand? Can you walk us through the math you just shared?
[17:21]
B
So currently I have about 200,000. I think it's $198,000 invested in my tax advantage retirement accounts. And that's basically all the money I have outside of some savings. And so if I were to stop today and allow that money to grow over time, then it would put me around $3 million or something like that and that would put me in the hundred K range for withdrawal rates, rates. And so my goal is to instead continue to grow from 200,000 to 500,000 by contributing about $3,300 per month at 30 with 500k that money is projected to grow to $5,000,000 at age 65 which would yield me a $200,000 per year in inflation adjusted retirement income.
[18:03]
A
That's awesome. I want to go back a moment here and talk about real estate again, because I think that that's the biggest change here. Not real estate specifically, but the I'm going to max out these retirement accounts and get to this CoastFi number and then kind of pop up and look at these next set of options. It sounds like there's actually a little bit of evolution in your particular story from that where there is a little bit more of a prioritization of after tax investments or liquidity because of that optionality that that's starting to come into your life already. But in my case, the rental property math was overwhelmingly powerful. It was way better than, you know, in any average conditions than these 401k or tax advantaged accounts at that moment in time. Right. Because I put down $12,000 on a $240,000 duplex here in the Denver area. I got a 95% leveraged mortgage. The payment, I'm now I'm reaching. What was, what the heck was the payment? It was somewhere in the like twelve hundred dollar range. I'll have to go look that up. I've talked about this a million times and I'm forgetting the number now. And then the other side rented for about 1100 and I had a roommate paying some money. And so that becomes very compelling math. Right. I think was like 1400, 15, 1550 somewhere in that range. All in for the payment. Property taxes, insurance, all that kind of stuff. So that's a really compelling story for financials. Right. That offsets rent. That's a direct cash inflow. There's an amortization going on, there's appreciation that's highly leveraged. It's less risky. To me, Philadelphia today, the greater Philadelphia area today offers the same if not better opportunities on paper that Denver offered in 2014. And yet that is not a priority for you. I think you mentioned you're actually going right before we're talking about this. You mentioned you're living in an apartment right now and you're going to rent another apartment. You're going to upgrade, a big upgrade going from a one bed to a two bed, 600 square feet to 7, 750 or so, right?
[19:49]
B
Yeah.
[19:49]
A
Classic by approach there. Walk me through. Why isn't real estate appealing to you in a lot of other gen zers right now?
[19:56]
B
I think we're told and we've been hearing a lot that like real estate is really expensive. And I think that you're right that there is opportunity for real estate investment. I think that it's just not qu so obvious and maybe I think I would have to develop a certain level of expertise in order to pursue those opportunities. And it's not quite so clear cut as maybe it was in the past. That's just my perception. I don't, I don't have like substantial data to back that up. But I think for me personally the answer is just simplicity. That it's. I'm putting money in broad market index funds, they're in tax advantaged retirement accounts. I'm doing simple, simple math, living in a cheap apartment. I'm not dealing with tenants, I'm not working with loan officers. I am just doing the simple things as best as I can. And that is really appealing to me. And I think that real estate could be an exciting opportunity in the future. Especially because when you get into this fire world, there's so many people that are so passionate about the way that real estate can cash flow and lower your expenses. But I think for me personally, just as someone getting involved in it early on, and for a lot of my peers who are young people starting to get interested in the ideas of financial independence, there's something so exciting about the fact of just earning a W2 income, going through a series of investment steps, savings, investing certain accounts and just following that path forward, never having to deal with those physical assets or anything like that, just living in an apartment wherever you want to live. It's exciting, awesome.
[21:31]
A
Love it. I guess the question then comes up is are there going to be any side bets in your case, you have a Instagram and other things you're working on, which I think were for a while very popular, but not generating any income. Maybe they are generating some income now that's beginning to be more interesting. Walk me through what is the side hustle or the opportunity that is accessible to someone who's 25 today, more broadly, if not the real estate, because surely folks that are pursuing fi want some other outlet beyond their, their day job and the investment approach. In many cases, what do you think are the places to go and look for those opportunities?
[22:06]
B
Yeah, that's such a great question because I think so much of someone's financial independence journey is dictated by their savings rate. And we talked about the frugality, size of things, cutting expenses, but the other side of that same coin is growing income. And I think a lot of people, it's not talked about enough. And so something that's exciting about today's economy versus when you were talking about your starting Your journey in 2014 is that you have such a large gig economy today. So I know lots of people who do like side hustles, whether it's Uber or something like that, and they can earn income that way. But I think also something that's really exciting is freelancing. So one of my friends is a video editor and she is constantly getting, you know, requests from different people. She has a portfolio, it's out there on her LinkedIn and, and she's a very talented video editor. And there is such a desire for people to edit a couple videos here or kind of be a part time video editor. And I think that that applies to a lot of different roles. Whether it's consulting in your professional role, that that has really evolved in a lot of ways, especially with virtual work. So I think for young people there's, there's a lot of opportunities to seek out those extra ways to earn income which can really supercharge your financial independence journey.
[23:25]
A
I think that makes sense. It makes intuitive sense to me. Like in 2014, those opportunities were there. They were just a little harder to access, a little like the infrastructure was not quite in play to make it very efficient or easy to translate additional time into money. And I tried multiple times. Maybe I was just bad at it as another possibility. Right. I was bad at those things and better at the real estate component. It seems like it's believable to me that today that infrastructure is so much better developed in the gig economy that that's just the play. It's just so efficient to turn in time into reasonably high, high output dollars per hour if that's what you want. In addition to your W2 job, making real estate, for example, maybe a little less appealing for a lot of folks. There's many more options that are at your fingertips, I imagine you, Evan, right now than buying a duplex. That's one option, maybe even attractive one among many other attractive options to generate additional income.
[24:21]
B
And I think it's never been easier. Also outside of just applying your existing professional skills, that if you've ever wanted to start a business, it's never been easier to put together a website, develop a set of skills that you're interested in putting out there in the market. It's so easy these days to do that. As I started to do it for my social media platforms, I'm constantly encouraging my friends now that if you have something that you love to do that you come home, you can't stop thinking about at work, you're doing it a little bit at lunch, and you're just enjoying it so much, try to make that a business. There's so much opportunity to do that now, and it's really never been easier.
[24:56]
A
Okay, so I got another question here about coastfi, right? We talk about the middle class trap here on BiggerPockets Money, which some people take issue with. The middle class trap. It means that it's not really a middle class thing. It means that you have a lot of your wealth in your 401k, your tax advantaged accounts, you have your home equity and that's, that's the vast majority of your wealth. Maybe, maybe you only have a few thousand dollars or it could only last a few months without wage paying work without having to tap into those areas. That's a real problem for a lot of people who listen to personal finance podcasts, right? I've done everything right. 15 years have gone by and I'm a millionaire or close to it, but it doesn't feel day to day like I actually have this optionality in my life. And there's many ways to escape this, right? There's psychological reset like, oh, I'm a millionaire, I can just move to Coastfi. There's mechanics like accessing, you know, money via 72T or you know, Sepp substantially equal periodic payment distributions or Roth conversions, for example. But in practice, we also find that those are very unappealing in the moment in many real life situations, right? So yes, you can do a Roth conversion or a substantially equal periodic payment, but if you do, you're going to be taking that 72t for decades and that's going to limit your optionality, actually. Especially if you want to stay under modified adjusted gross income cliffs to qualify for health care subsidies, for example, or, you know, the roth conversion or those 72 distributions are unappealing if, for example, one spouse is still working, that doesn't quite cover the bills. Have you thought at all about this? Does this worry you from a Coast Fire perspective as a limiting some kind of options at that point in your life?
[26:31]
B
I think that that's a very real risk. I've heard you guys talk about that a lot and I think that it's super interesting. I think that Coast Fire, like you mentioned is kind of like a psychological reframe that people maybe do have more flexibility than they're acknowledging. And if they put together all their retirement investment assets and did the math on their Coast Fire number, they would realize, well, you know, my savings rate could be hovering around 5% or even zero, all the way down to zero, and I would have plenty when I reach retirement. And I think that psychological reframe could help a lot. But I Completely agree that sometimes that's easier said than done, even for myself. And I think that the simple answer to that is kind of like this in my mind like a super optimal allocation, you know, is that you have, you're maxing out these tax advantage retirement accounts and then you're also building up like a large financial Runway, a big cash, cash equivalent, high yield savings account bond, something like that that you can access immediately and that gives you that flexibility. In addition, with the psychological understanding that you've already bought your traditional retirement income.
[27:40]
A
I also think like coastfi is, I got to just keep grounding myself here. It's just a milestone, right? It's like it's, I would imagine almost nobody stops entirely at Coast Buy, right? And then I'm done. It's, it's a milestone. I'm going to keep accumulating. I have the option at least to take my foot off the gas, pursue other things, take additional risks, begin doing things differently. But I know that I've checked that box for retirement. I think we have to keep grounding it in that context. And I think that many people actually. Ramit Sethi had a great post on this the other day that I thought was fantastic. It was about a couple that was like, we live paycheck to paycheck as a high income earners, but they also maxed out two 401ks, did two backdoor Roth contributions, maxed out the HSA. They just didn't accumulate anything else beyond that. And they, they were like, I live, we live paycheck to paycheck. And that's America today for the community of people who listen to personal finance podcasts. Whereas other folks in this country who are struggling, they truly do live paycheck to paycheck. And that that perception of your reality is really different from person to person when it comes to money, which I find, I find fascinating.
[28:46]
B
Yeah, and you mentioned, Scott, that it's a milestone, which I agree with in some ways. And I think that if you're on this path and you're enjoying your, your path to financial independ, it could be a milestone where you reach coastfi and then you're like, okay, well maybe I want to pursue traditional financial independence and retire early and start to build this after tax position. And I'm going to do that from the job that I'm working right now. But I don't necessarily think that will be the case for everybody that I think that when you do reach that coast Fire number, you can say, all right, I've been earning $10,000 per month. And I've been investing 4 to $5,000 worth of that. But now that I've reached this Coast Fire number and I no longer need to contribute to my traditional retirement age, can I go earn 5,000 on my own? Can I go start my own business? Can I go take a different job? So I think it is a milestone in some ways, but it also could be kind of a fork in the road for some people where they truly do take a different path now that they've reached this.
[29:43]
A
Awesome. So tell me about what your lifestyle looks like day to day. As someone journeying to coastfi for me,
[29:49]
B
like we talked about, I really aim in tackling kind of the big three expenses that I have. And I try not to worry so much about the smaller things. So I live in the suburbs of Philadelphia. There's lots of great suburbs with exciting towns. I live in one of them. Me and my girlfriend share a really small, really old apartment. You know, it's got different issues. It's got no amenities. We have a communal laundry room. None of that bothers me. I have a 2015 Nissan Sentra.
[30:17]
A
Nissan Sentra is a rookie move. The Corolla, the OG vehicle.
[30:21]
B
Time will tell. But the car squeaks as I leave the parking lot. Don't care. Air conditioning doesn't work. I occasionally bring an ice cube that I keep in my cup holder to rub on myself to keep cool. So none of that bothers me. But you know, my friend has a birthday party, we have no problem going to the birthday party, bringing presents, going to out to the bars, hanging out with friends. So those things we don't worry about so much. We go to the Phillies games. But the big expenses we try to keep as low as possible because I found that really moves the needle. And in addition, like we discussed, I'm working on my side hustle and also trying to grow my W2 income.
[30:57]
A
So day to day life looks pretty good. Except for the commute in the summer.
[31:01]
B
Yes. Yeah, the commute in the summer is pretty brutal.
[31:03]
A
Is it bikeable?
[31:04]
B
It's not bikable.
[31:05]
A
Okay, fair enough, fair enough. So, I mean, it sounds pretty good. And I will say that, you know, those are the things that really matter. A lot of the stuff that I find the best from you though is that you seem to cost out the everyday expenses better than almost anybody I've ever met. You know, for example, you're like, say, have a low cost breakfast with me and you'll cost out the per egg cost, the slice of cheese, the Bagel. Tell me about what, what got you into, into doing that analysis.
[31:30]
B
Yeah, so I make these little videos are about a minute long where I'll share, spend a low cost morning with me and everything that I'll do, I'll break down, down to the penny, which I really started more as kind of an exercise, right, to kind of show people like, what do these things actually cost that you're consuming each morning? It's not something that I'll do, you know, like a Sunday morning, I'm taking a bite of an apple and I'll think, oh, six cent bite there. It really has been very eye opening to me, especially comparing like the cost of eating at home. You know, you, you put together like a delicious breakfast at home. It might be $4 at most, like $6 compared to eating out could be $20. And so in my mind, it gives people something to think about. It gives them a way of considering their own costs, even down to the minute detail.
[32:18]
A
As a parent now there's like a different math. I haven't really thought about this, but I have to think about like, okay, the banana here has gone three quarters of the way down. My infants, you know, something like that. I guess I'm having the last, you know, third of this thing. Here's a pancake that's mostly eaten. I guess that's, you know, that one's for me there. So I have to cost those out with my family. It'll probably be fairly entertaining little video like yours.
[32:40]
B
Yeah, it's tons of fun. You're like the cleanup crew.
[32:42]
A
Okay, so I thought it'd be fun to end today's episode by highlighting the similarities and differences in our two approaches to moving toward financial independence at age 25. And so I'll go first and I'll say, When I was 25, I was pursuing all out financial independence. It was an all out pursuit of financial independence. And I did that by focusing on the big three expenses, housing, transportation and food. I took that to the next level by focusing on house hacking, accumulating almost all of my wealth after tax so that I could buy a duplex and get my housing costs to zero or as close as possible to zero. I was actively exploring side hustles and alternative income streams. I focused on growing my main income source not by increasing my salary, but by joining a startup and seeking at risk compensation, including equity and sales opportunities. I was reading dozens, maybe approaching 50 business books a year and networking as much as I possibly could in the pursuit of luck. Opportunities that would come my way as a result of that. But I also made time for plenty of hobbies. I played rugby and frolicked as the word I'll use around Denver doing 20 something things with this kind of work hard, play hard mentality. So Evan, how does that contrast or compare to your situation right now as a 25 year old in Philly?
[33:58]
B
I think like we said, there's lots of similarities, but there's also some differences. So my approach is definitely more reaching that Coast Fire milestone and then enjoying that financial flexibility and allowing it to help me pivot. So. Totally agree. First off, on focusing on the big three expenses. Those are the things that really move the needle. Housing, transportation, food. The difference I think initially is that as the housing market has changed a little bit, I've chosen to pursue more of a super cheap apartment living with my girlfriend, splitting those expenses versus the house hack with the roommates. I also focused on growing my W2 income. Two sides of the same coin there, expenses and income increases that savings rate. As we discussed, building a large cash position while also pursuing that Coast Fire gives kind of that immediate flexibility and that financial Runway that we've talked about. Also pursuing plenty of hobbies. I haven't heard that frolicking before, but I really like that I use the term meandering the other day or stopping and smelling the roses. So totally agree there. You have to balance enjoying today with preparing for tomorrow and with the goal of then reaching that Coast Fire milestone and allowing that to be a crossroads of either starting a business or doing a job pivot. But altogether focusing on prioritizing flexibility with the goal of achieving a modest level of financial flexibility rather than that true financial independence.
[35:25]
A
Awesome. And I love your approach. I have so much respect for this evolution and this tweak on it. That's why I was so excited to invite you on the show to co host with us today and share this. The differences in the way that we're approaching things are just wonderful and you're absolutely crushing it and are contributing a tremendous amount to the financial independence world with the example that you set here at 25. So congratulations on everything you've achieved there. And I love the contrast and the different approaches, the different right answers to this challenge.
[35:51]
B
Thank you so much. I really appreciate that and I totally agree. I love all the different flavors of fi and I think that they can apply to a bunch of different people. And the bigger we can make the community, in my opinion, the better.
[36:02]
A
Awesome, man. Well, where can people find out more about you, Evan?
[36:04]
B
You can find me across all social media platforms at the financial foundation where I share my frugal living, my pursuit of coast fire, and all the things I've learned about personal finance.
[36:16]
A
Well, Evan, thank you so much for joining us on BiggerPockets Money. I think this is the third time you've been on the show. Hopefully more to come. So really appreciate it and have a wonderful rest of your week.
[36:24]
B
Thanks, Scott. You too.
[36:25]
A
All right, as always, we have a budding website. I think that's the right word, budding website. @biggerpocketsmoney.com I am building a big chunk of this with a couple of helpers here and having a blast doing it. It's still under construction, but every week we're releasing new cool things. We've got a couple of calculators there. One of the ones that I did last week that was actually pretty cool was a budget calculator. Not like a random spreadsheet where you put numbers in. But I actually went through and compiled a bunch of databases and I tried to get a picture of what people like you spend, people of your same household, your same income quintile, the location that you live in, geography. I went to great lengths to get childcare costs if you have childcare to help you understand if those are reasonable in your location. So check that out@bigger biggerpocketsmoney.com budget and tell me what you think about that and give me any feedback for evolutions or the next steps on it. I think it's pretty cool and will be pretty helpful. That's just one of many tools that I've been hard at work building and having a absolute blast building. All right, we'll see you guys Friday. That wraps up this episode of the BiggerPockets Money podcast. He is Evan Lawler and I am Scott Trench. Saying let's fly pieces.