The Messy Middle of Financial Independence (How to Stay Motivated)

Summary

BiggerPockets Money Podcast: The Messy Middle of Financial Independence (How to Stay Motivated) – April 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode addresses an often-overlooked but critically important phase of the financial independence journey: the "messy middle." Hosts Mindy Jensen and her husband Carl (standing in for Scott Trench) dive deeply into strategies, pitfalls, and mindset shifts needed to persist through the long, sometimes demoralizing chunk of years between starting your FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) mission and actually reaching the finish line. The discussion is rooted in their own lived experience and incorporates practical tips, humor, and reflections on both what to prioritize and what to avoid as you grind toward financial freedom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining "The Messy Middle" and the Slog (02:19–08:38)

• Description: The messy middle is that extended period—after you’ve made initial changes and started investing or saving but before you’re “close” to financial independence. It can be demoralizing because progress seems slow even when you’re doing everything “right.”

  • Not a place for beginners or dreamers, but for those actively on their intermediate FIRE journey.

• Personal Anecdote: Mindy and Carl recall their own experience: selling their upgraded, comfortable home and moving into a fixer-upper teeming with “bonus ants and mice” to accelerate their path.

  • “We wanted financial independence. And that was it. Nothing else was important.” – Carl (08:04)

• Lesson: Extreme optimization might shorten the journey, but can lead to burnout or decreased quality of life. Mindy wishes they had lengthened their path by a couple years if it meant incorporating more joy.

  • “I’d rather have a fun 11 years than a really hard nine.” – Mindy Jensen (08:38)

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2. What Still Matters: Levers to Pull in the Messy Middle

a. Income Growth and Savings Rate (09:39–10:44)

• Continually pursue higher income—not for lifestyle inflation, but to save/invest more.
• Reference to Mr. Money Mustache’s “shockingly simple math” (09:46):
  • “If you are saving 20% of your income, you are going to be working about 37 years. If you flip that and save 80%, you’re working five and a half.” – Mindy Jensen
• Every percentage point increase in savings can dramatically reduce your time to FI.

b. Spending for Joy, Not Just Frugality (10:54–12:33)

• Cut ruthlessly where it doesn’t matter to you, but don’t deprive yourself in areas that enhance happiness.
• Carl’s Example: Prefers spending on accommodations to maximize travel joy and time, rather than on clothes or car repairs.
  • “Especially on a vacation, because your time is limited... Pay money to... optimize the time that you have there.” – Carl (12:13)

c. Consistent, Automated Investing (12:36–15:29)

• Importance of automated investing: prevents “decision fatigue” and ensures consistency.
  • “Set it and forget it. Make the decision to do it, and then set it up so it’s automatic.” – Mindy Jensen (14:07)
• Example: Automate deductions from paycheck so investing happens before money hits your checking account.

d. Avoid the Optimization Trap (15:31–18:07)

• Over-optimization can steal joy and consume undue time for minimal gains.
• Don’t trade hours (and happiness) for trivial savings.
  • “Look at the time value of the money as well as the money value of the money.” – Mindy Jensen (16:57)
• The ultimate goal is to optimize for happiness, not just financial efficiency.
  • “The ultimate optimization should always be for happiness and ease of moving through life.” – Mindy Jensen (18:07)

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3. Design (and Start Living) Your Post-FI Life Now (19:43–22:48)

• Use the messy middle to test and plan the life you want to live after FI. Don’t wait until you hit your number to start enjoying or experimenting with retirement activities.
  • “Start living the life you want to retire to... You might not have time for everything, but you can start doing it on a small scale.” – Carl (20:39)

Physical and Mental Health

• Emphasize wellness now, not "after FI."
  • “What’s more important than health? If you don’t have your health, nothing else really matters.” – Carl (21:15)
  • Mindy shares her (begrudging) habit of going to the gym, noting the importance of finding activities you’ll actually stick with.

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4. Community: Surround Yourself with Like-Minded People (23:04–27:08)

• Community support is vital for motivation, resilience, and perspective during the slog.
  • “Having a community of support is going to help you stay the course, help you figure out how to get over the hump when you have a setback, and just be supportive.” – Mindy Jensen (24:38)
• Examples: Local meetups, online groups, or relocating to "FI-friendly" places.
  • “Even if you’re a weird, abnormal introvert like me, the people in the FI community... are easily filled with people like you.” – Carl (25:48)
  • Their experience at a river cruise with other FI seekers: Instant connections and mutual understanding.

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5. Transitioning Out of the Messy Middle (27:08–29:37)

• Most people have an abrupt transition out of work; ideally, the transition should feel seamless because you’re already living aspects of your ideal life.
  • “The most successful transition will be no transition. As you are living that life, while consistently investing and focusing on retirement, it just sort of transitions itself.” – Mindy Jensen (28:19)
• Carl describes his own withdrawal from full-time work as unexpectedly difficult and somewhat sad, despite seemingly being prepared.
• Action item: Make a list of core values and areas you need to work on, then use your newfound time to address them.
  • “Make a list...and then figure out how your time is going to help you accomplish those things.” – Carl (30:25)

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6. Final Reflections: Happiness is the Point (31:13–32:14)

• Avoid “wishing your days away”—incorporate joy and meaning throughout, rather than postponing happiness until after financial goals are met.
  • “If you’re sacrificing that just to get to that point, you’ve missed the whole point because you’re giving up happiness to get to happiness.” – Carl (31:13)
  • “Don’t give up happiness now so that you can be happy later. Incorporate happiness the whole time.” – Mindy Jensen (32:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Carl’s self-deprecating humor: On the “messy middle,” thinking Mindy meant his tendency to ruin white shirts, not the FIRE slog (03:14).
• Brutal honesty on burnout: “It was a really good idea from a money perspective, a really bad idea from a life perspective.” – Carl (08:16)
• On community: “We go hiking... some are retired, some have flexible jobs. These are the people who are going to make you more excited for financial independence and give you nudges along the way.” – Carl (24:38)
• Actionable wisdom: “Put it on my calendar...incorporating things into your calendar that help you lead a less messy middle.” – Mindy Jensen (30:25)
• Encouragement: “You should be living a life that lights you up all the time, not focusing on what you’re going to do once you reach financial independence.” – Mindy Jensen (30:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:19] – The psychological challenge of the messy middle
• [06:28] – Drastic lifestyle changes after discovering FIRE
• [09:39] – Income growth and savings rates
• [12:36] – Consistent, automated investing
• [15:31] – The optimization trap and over-optimizing
• [19:43] – Designing your post-FI life (and health priorities)
• [23:04] – Building your financial independence tribe/community
• [27:08] – Transitioning to post-work life and realignment
• [31:13] – Final advice: Happiness as the ultimate goal

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Resources & Additional Info

• Mindy Jensen: Host and author, shares weekly newsletter at biggerpocketsmoney.com
• Carl Jensen: Blog at 1500days.com
• Referenced reading: Mr. Money Mustache’s “Shockingly Simple Math Behind Early Retirement”

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Summary Takeaway:
The messy middle is hard—but it’s also life. Endure it by safeguarding your joy, automating your progress, building community, prioritizing health, and starting (even in small ways) to live the life you dream of after FI—right now. Don’t optimize happiness away; FIRE is only successful if you enjoy the journey and the destination.

Transcript

[Scott Trench]

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[Carl]

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[Scott Trench]

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[Carl]

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[Mindy Jensen]

Everybody Talks about the beginning of your financial independence journey or the end where you're actually retiring early. But nobody talks about the hardest part, the messy middle. It's that phase where you've done everything right. You've already discovered financial independence, you're earning more, you're investing consistently, maybe you're even hitting six or seven figures. But financial independence still feels years away. So today we are breaking down exactly how to navigate this stage, which is really the longest stage of of your financial independence journey. We're going to talk about what actually matters, what doesn't, and how to make sure you don't burn out before you ever reach financial freedom. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen, and joining me again while Scott is off playing hooky is my husband, Carl. Hi, Carl.

[Carl]

Hello. So I admit when I saw the title of this, I was a little bit afraid because I thought you were talking about me. The messy middle. I have a lot of white shirts that are now living in the landfill or the walls of our house as noise suppression because I'm pretty messy.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah, literally. We stuffed these shirts into the house that we are building right now. I saw a tweet, it said, bad news, I forgot to put on my spaghetti eating shirt. Good news, now I have a new spaghetti eating shirt. And that's Carl. But that is not what we're talking about. Carl has a lot of spaghetti eating shirts. But we are talking about this segment of your journey where you are just doing the slog. Let's define what the messy middle actually means. It is not your shirt. It is the portion of the journey where you are already started. You have begun investing. You're doing everything right, but you're not there yet. And you're not really even close. Out of a 10 year journey, this is year, like two or three. You've still got a long way to go before you reach financial independence. It can be a little psychologically demeaning or damaging to be like, I've done everything right. I've started, you know, saving. I'm, I'm, I'm on the path. Why am I not even close? Maybe you have had some setbacks. You know, your emergency fund is to be used for emergencies. But right after you deplete it for an emergency, it feels like you're back at stage one. No, you're not. You've used an emergency fund for what it's for. So now you build up your emergency fund again. And this phase can feel awful, but it doesn't have to be awful before

[Carl]

we get into that. I think we should be the poster children for this. We discovered financial independence when I was 37. Do you remember the house that we lived in before we discovered financial independence? Describe that house really quick. The other one south of Denver.

[Mindy Jensen]

So when we discovered this, we were living in a city south of Denver that shall not be be named. And we lived in a neighborhood where conspicuous consumption was the theme. Everybody had newer cars than we did, except for the one kid down the street who had like a collectible truck from the 50s. The twins across the street had brand new cars. And we had a car that was like 12 years old and another one that was 2 years old. And then one of the twins destroyed their car so their parents went out and bought them another new car like the next day. And everybody had so much stuff. Our oldest daughter was five at the time. She went over and played at a neighbor's house and then came home. And I remember she said to us, why do they have more toys than I do? And I'm like, well, because their parents never spend any time with them so they, you know, buy their love. But I, you can't say that to a five year old.

[Carl]

And what was our house like specifically? Where I'm getting at this is. I want to describe the house pre financial independence and the one we moved into after we discovered post financial independence because we should play those, those sounds from horror movies with the eee, eee, eee. Because the house we moved into after, when we went into our messy middle was drastically different.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yes. So the house that we were living in in the city south of Denver was four bedrooms. It was completely finished, big ceilings. What was it like 3,500 square feet without the basement. A full basement corner lot in a neighborhood filled with other houses just like this. And what do we pay for that? Like $400,000.

[Carl]

Yeah, it was a little bit over 400. And then we moved into something completely different.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah. So then we discovered financial independence and we moved to the great city of Longmont and we bought a house that was $140,000. Two bedrooms, one bathroom. And we proceeded to add a second story to that house and change it to a four bedroom, three bath house with all while living in there with two small children. And Carl was working full time.

[Carl]

Yeah. And that house came with bonus ants and mice. So at that time we discovered Mr. Money Mustache Financial independence and we went into full on optimization mode. We need to sell this nice house. Buy the cheapest one we can in the Nicest neighborhood and then fix it up to put sweat equity into it and build up our financial independence number.

[Mindy Jensen]

How much money did we put into that house?

[Carl]

Oh, I don't even know.

[Mindy Jensen]

Let's ballpark it at like 200,000.

[Carl]

The real question, the more important question is, and that relates to the messy middle, is how much time did we put into the house? And how much of my blood, like, real blood. Remember that one time I plunged a knife into my hand in the crawl space? That was unpleasant.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yes. We had to go to the emergency room.

[Carl]

Lots of tetanus shots.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah, you got two tetanus shots when we lived in that house.

[Carl]

So we went full on into the messy middle. Cause all of a sudden, we wanted financial independence, and that was it. Nothing else was aborted.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah. And what was our happiness level at that house?

[Carl]

I don't. I don't want to say it was unhappy. I think when you're in the trenches fighting, you don't realize that you're in the trenches. And you only realize once you've climbed out of there what you're doing and how. It might have been a suboptimal idea. I mean, it was a really good idea from a money perspective, a really bad idea from a life perspective.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah, we sold that house for almost $600,000.

[Carl]

Yes.

[Mindy Jensen]

And that part was great, but the slog to get there was not. And I think that there's a lot of people who discover financial independence and make their lives suboptimal, to use your favorite word. In the pursuit of financial independence, what we should have done is incorporated joy, incorporated happiness, or on purpose into our journey, so that perhaps our journey would have been a little bit longer, but the entire thing would have been far more enjoyable. I'd rather have a fun 11 years than a really hard nine. Okay, so this show is not just about us. We also need to share some lessons that we've learned. So let's talk about some of the levers that still matter on the journey to financial independence when you're in that messy middle. So number one is going to be income growth. You want to be pursuing a higher income, not so you could spend more, but so you can save and invest more.

[Carl]

Yeah, absolutely. Increase that savings rate as much as you can, within reason, within happiness. But that's what you should be working

[Mindy Jensen]

on in the shockingly simple math behind early retirement. On Mr. Money Mustache's blog, he's got a great chart that talks about your savings rate and how many years you'll have to work until retirement. So if you are saving 20% of your income, you are going to be working about 37 years. If you flip that and save 80% of your income, you're going to be working five and a half years until you reach retirement. There's, of course, there's all sorts of levels of savings rate between 20 and 80%, but that's a huge difference. 20% is 37 years, 80% is five years. So every percentage point that you can increase your savings rate, you are exponentially reducing your. Your time in the workforce. So focus on getting your income as high as you can and saving as much as you can.

[Carl]

I think you should ask Scott for a raise after we're done recording.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah, Scott's going to love having you on the show.

[Carl]

This will be my last show. Thank you. It's been great.

[Mindy Jensen]

But while you are focusing on saving as much as you can, also keep in mind the joy. Keep in the things that you enjoy. Cut ruthlessly when there's something you don't care about. Carl doesn't really care about his clothes. That doesn't make him a bad person. That makes him somebody who doesn't care about fashion. So he's not out there buying really expensive clothes because it doesn't matter to him. What are some things you do spend money on?

[Carl]

Wait, you don't think my style is awesome? You don't think this is, like.

[Mindy Jensen]

No, I think your style is great.

[Carl]

I could be in Milan on one of those, like, fashion things, right? I could be on the Runway.

[Mindy Jensen]

Do you know what a Runway is?

[Carl]

So what was your question? What do I really care about?

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah, what do you care about that you will spend money on?

[Carl]

Ooh. I care about maximizing joy with the family. So I. The way we travel is different. I don't want to spend a lot of time commuting once I get to a place, for example. So now I like walking a lot, too. So now when we travel, we'll pay up to get a nice Airbnb or hotel in the center of town where we can walk or take public transportation. I'm trying to think of times we've clearly done this wrong before. New Orleans, we did it wrong where there was a big walk to get anywhere. Well, we'll save a little bit of money, though, especially on a vacation, because your time is limited. You're only going to be at that place for a short amount of time. So pay money to. I'm going to use the O word again. Optimize the time that you have there.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah, I think that's an acceptable use of the word optimization, even though Ramit told you never to use it again.

[Carl]

One other one is I can work on cars, I've rebuilt engines, but I really, really despise it. So I'm happy to pay other people. Unless you want to take up auto repair. You could do that as a 10th career.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah, no, thanks.

[Carl]

I think you'd be great at it.

[Mindy Jensen]

I would be awesome, but I'm not going to do it.

[Carl]

Okay, we'll start with oil change after the podcast is over.

[Mindy Jensen]

No. So you want to focus on income growth. You want to focus on your savings, right? You want to focus on investing consistently. When you are saving a lot of money, you aren't putting it into a savings account because that is not where the growth comes in. Putting it into solid investments like index funds or heavily researched individual stocks, or into a business that you're starting into rental real estate. Whatever you're investing in, invest consistently. Invest a set amount every single week or every single month, every time you get a paycheck, every quarter. Whatever your investment philosophy tells you to do, make sure you're following that as closely as you possibly can.

[Carl]

You know, I think this next one is pretty important. You don't have to make big moves, especially when you're young. Like, don't feel bad if you don't feel you're portfolio doubling every year. I remember I was thinking about my first job. I would check my investment balance every day. I don't do that anymore, do I?

[Mindy Jensen]

Yes, you do.

[Carl]

Yeah, I probably do it multiple times per day, but I remember one day my portfolio had gone up like $100, and I was so happy about that. And now that would not make me nearly as happy. But the beauty of this is you don't have to make big moves because allowing your money to grow, give it enough time, your money will make the big moves for you, so you don't have to. And this goes back to your consistency point. As long as you're putting the money in there, it's going to snowball. It's the magic of compound interest. Before you know it, the money's going to be making more money than you ever could at your job, which is a pretty magical thing.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah. And all of this, as much of this as possible, should be set it and forget it. So your savings rate, your consistent investing, set it and forget it. Make the decision to do it, and then set it up so it's automatic. And you don't have to make that decision because let me give you an example. So I have a salary of $2,000 a week and I have decided I'm going to put $500 a week into my investments. I put my $500 in, but I haven't automated it. The next time I get a paycheck, I have to make that decision to put that $500 into the investments. And the next time I get my paycheck, I have to make that decision again. But maybe I was online and I found a super cute. I don't have that $500 anymore. I only have 400 because I already spent 100 of it. I wouldn't have that $100 to spend if I had taken that 500 and automatically set it up with HR so that it doesn't even hit my bank account. It automatically goes into my investment account. That's what I'm talking about with automation and with making the decision. Once I have decided I want to put $500 in. So I talked to HR and they do it for me. I would have to make another decision to not do it in order for that to change as opposed to every single week making the decision so that it stays consistent.

[Carl]

What is number three?

[Mindy Jensen]

Number three, avoid the optimization trap. So this is right there headed towards you. What is the optimization trap?

[Carl]

Oh, the optimization trap is when you let efficiency rule your life. I've never done that, have I?

[Mindy Jensen]

Only every single day.

[Carl]

We should think of a new example. I've got plenty of them. Like I still over optimize.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yes, you still over optimize. Case in point, the electricity for the other house. You have the ability, because your father was an electrician, you have the ability to wire an entire house. You could have done that and saved us $20,000.

[Carl]

Yeah, I was just thinking of the small ridiculous ones. Like I want to be at Lowe's at 6am when it opens or like 8:59 when it closes because there's no one else there and I won't have to wait. So that's pretty silly to wake up at 5:30 to avoid two other humans in front of you in line.

[Mindy Jensen]

Remember that time you saved $20 and cost us several hours of layovers flying from Denver to Jacksonville and stopping in Minneapolis and Chicago.

[Carl]

So I'm one of those people who like to sit, have a window seat and look out the plane. I remember that flight. I remember looking at the beautiful snow out the window. So I think that flight was worth it for me.

[Mindy Jensen]

Well, it wasn't worth it for me. And also you could have seen the snow if we flew from Denver To Jacksonville.

[Carl]

I'm just kidding. It was not worth it.

[Mindy Jensen]

There's no need to be overly frugal. And I think one of the points about the optimization trap that people fall into in this community specifically is, well, I could save $5. Sure could. But it's going to cost you hours of time. Look at the time value of the money as well as the money value of the money. The plane trip that I love to tease Carl about, we always had one stop. It was not a nonstop flight, but adding a second stop to save $20 cost us, I think an hour and a half or two hours. My time is always going to be worth more than $10 an hour. You don't need to be overly frugal, but you know, don't spend a.

[Carl]

Sounds like you almost said a naughty word though.

[Mindy Jensen]

I did.

[Carl]

You were going to say you were going to say you almost spent a Scott ton of money, but that kind of throws Scott under the bus too. I don't know.

[Mindy Jensen]

That's a. Scott is much better at not being overly frugal than we are.

[Carl]

Do you have a blooper reel? Can all this go in the back of the podcast?

[Mindy Jensen]

No, they'll just leave it in.

[Carl]

Oh man. Ok. Okay, good. Sorry, Scott, I didn't mean to throw you under the podcast.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah, the ultimate optimization should always be for happiness and ease of moving through life.

[Scott Trench]

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[Mindy Jensen]

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[Carl]

Tomorrow morning is knocking.

[Mindy Jensen]

Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink?

[Carl]

Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe?

[Mindy Jensen]

Or white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. Number four Design the life that you want to retire to the messy middle is a nice long section of time. You have time to think about how you want to be spending your days. And sure, going on vacation and sitting at the beach sounds awesome for a couple of days. I don't want to live on the beach and go and lay on the beach every single day. But what I do want is to be relaxed so I'm not taking on more hassle. And that's something that we have learned rather recently with the building of the house and the finishing up of the house that we are still in right now. It's a live in flip. We've lived here for six and a half years and we're still not done yet.

[Carl]

Almost.

[Mindy Jensen]

Almost, yes. We're always almost done. We'll be done right before we put it on the market.

[Carl]

Yeah. And I would take this designing word, I would take this to the next level and I would say start living the life you want to retire to. You might not have time to live in Portugal for a month. Your boss might get angry at that. You might not have time to pursue all your hobbies, but you can start doing it on a small scale. And what that's going to do, it's going to make the transition to retirement much less abrupt because you've already been doing it. Now you can just expand those things.

[Mindy Jensen]

What are some things that you would have done during our messy middle if you had taken the advice and designed the life that you wanted to retire to?

[Carl]

No, this first one is huge. It sounds so simple, but I was not in great physical shape when I retired. I had a desk job. I sat around all day. And the easiest thing to give up when you're busy is going to the gym. Hey, it's busy. I gotta go pick up the kids, worry about dinner and all that. So I'm just gonna cut that out. What's more important than health? If you don't have your health, nothing else really matters. So I should have emphasized that first and foremost. And mental Health as well. I wasn't happy with my job. I should have addressed that and considered a different job even if I would have had to stay in the messy middle a little bit longer.

[Mindy Jensen]

This is actually a really common theme that I see. We have a lot of friends who are retired early and most of them are in very good shape. And the ones who aren't in very good shape are pursuing healthy lifestyles and getting themselves in very good shape. I think that that is one of the top priorities once people retire early. Now I'm going to get fit if that's going to be your top priority. Oh, once I retire, I'm going to go to the gym every day. Figure out a way to incorporate going to the gym now. And it doesn't have to be every day. Maybe it can be every other day to start. Find a gym you like. Oh my goodness. I have so many past gyms that I don't like that I never went to. Now I go to a gym and I go five times a week. And I wouldn't say I love it because I still don't like working out, but I hate this gym the least. And that is a very big compliment for me.

[Carl]

You are kind of addicted but I admire you for going there because I went to a couple of the workouts with you and it's one of the, it's like a guided workout and it was torture for like an hour.

[Mindy Jensen]

So yeah, 45 minutes. It's called F45. You can get the whole workout done in 45 minutes. And I like that too.

[Carl]

Yeah. Good job.

[Mindy Jensen]

You number five. What I want everybody listening to do is to start surrounding themselves with like minded people. So we live in Longmont. Longmont is kind of like Phi Landia. We are surrounded with like minded people in the messy middle. This is so, so, so important is to have people who are helping you stay on the track. You've got people in your life who are not on the path to financial independence. Those are the ones who are questioning what it is you're doing. And if you get enough people questioning what you're doing, you're going to start questioning it yourself. I promise you. Being retired is awesome. She said as she still works. But I see my husband is so much more relaxed on a day to day basis when he's not in this stressful job. All of our friends are so much more relaxed when they're not doing these stressful things or they're working because they choose to. Because they like what they're doing. Not working because they have to do it in order to put food on the table. And having a community of support is going to help you stay the course, help you figure out how to get over the hump when you have a setback. And just be supportive. There's always going to be people in different parts of their financial independence journey. They're going to be ahead of you, so they can tell you, yeah, I did that too, and here's how I got through it. Or they're going to be behind you, and you can. I mean, I don't really want you to compare yourself to people, but you're like, oh, well, I'm in a better position than Bob. Just having a community of support is going to be so helpful.

[Carl]

Absolutely. I think you should find people who reflect and reinforce the values that are important to you. If you know you're going to be led astray, you're going to be pressured to do things that you might not want to do. And I would also say find people who want to do the things that you want to do. Post fly, too. And maybe they're already retired and you're not. I'm looking at you here, but we have a hiking group every Thursday. You don't know about this because you're probably right here in this room, but we go hiking and some of the people are retired. Some people have work and they can take a little bit of time off or they have a flexible schedule. These are the people who are going to make you more excited for financial independence and give you nudges along the way. Yeah, we're so fortunate to have that community here. So if you need help, it's as easy as moving to Longmont

[Mindy Jensen]

or going to a local. Choose by group and start attending a meetup and connect with other people who are in a similar position. Having negative commentary from friends and family who don't understand what you're trying to do can help derail your path. You don't want help derailing your path. You want help staying on the path. So surround yourself with people who. Who understand what it is you're trying to accomplish.

[Carl]

Yeah. And to rephrase this or to approach it from a slightly different viewpoint, you read about these blue zones where people live longer than average. And I think the most important thing is having a good community and having a good social network. And even if you're a weird, abnormal introvert like me, the people in the FI community are easily filled with people like you. Yeah, they're filled with people like me, exactly. Like nerds who like to Talk about nerdy things. And it's because if you've passed through that money filter, you're going to have a lot of other things in common. Naturally. It's very weird. Maybe we're living in our own.

[Mindy Jensen]

Our own simulation.

[Carl]

Yeah. Reality distortion field. Reality 5 field. But we go like, we were just on this river Cruise with like 38 other five people. And I don't know, you sit down to dinner and you feel like you're friends almost instantly. Where there's people I know outside of this community who, like, I don't really get into hockey or the weather, celebrity gossip, all that. And I just have nothing in common with those people. So after knowing them for 10 years, it still feels weird and awkward. But after knowing some of these people who came to the community through money, I feel okay after like five minutes. I mean, still a little awkward and weird, but better than the hockey, sports, fashion, celebrity people. Not that there's anything wrong with that. If that's your thing, that's just not your thing. Yeah, just not my thing. It's great. Everyone should find their tribe in this. This is how you find your tribe.

[Mindy Jensen]

So, Carl, when you are getting towards the end of the messy middle, how are you starting to transition out of that? How are you starting to think about life after retirement? Ooh.

[Carl]

I have two different answers for this. The first one is pretty hard. There are a couple people I know and very few, but they've built a really optimal life. I think we're going to get to this with the next point. But they don't really have a transition because they were doing it right all along. But. But most people, especially us, did not do it like that. And the issue with this is retirement. Quitting your job is a huge, huge, huge change that you might know your co workers or spend more time with them than your spouse or kids. That's just how life works out if you have a demanding job. So you need to start preparing for this transition so it's not abrupt and so it doesn't give you anxiety and so you don't feel lost when you left, which I think is a little bit how I felt. And we just hit on the big one with the last one. Build up a friend network. So when you leave work, you'll probably just be spending more time with the same people that you were talking to before you left work on that. Before, I don't think we knew a lot of people. Yeah, we didn't focus enough on that. Probably because we were so busy with a messy middle.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah. We were so busy. The end of the transition or the beginning of the transition. The most successful transition will be no transition. You're already there. You've got a good chunk of time to start thinking about how you want your life to be, then start living that life. And as you are living that life, while consistently investing and focusing on retirement, it just sort of transitions itself. Successful transitions. What was your transition like?

[Carl]

It was abrupt because my job was very intensive. I thought about it all the time, even when I wasn't at work. So when I left, it was like being released into the void or something like that. I. I kind of did not know what to do with myself. And it might have been even a little bit depressing, kind of sad. What happens now?

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah. And you were writing a blog. You were writing your blog about your journey. So you had conversations with other people in the space. But, I mean, you left work nine years ago.

[Carl]

Yeah.

[Mindy Jensen]

What did you do that first year? I don't even remember the dentist app.

[Carl]

Yeah. Walking around.

[Mindy Jensen]

He was a computer programmer. So he stopped working as a computer programmer and then was an unpaid computer programmer.

[Carl]

Yeah. I think a valid exercise for everyone to do to close out this segment is to make a list of your core values and also the things that you need to work on. And then think about how having a surplus of time is going to help you address these. And I'll just throw one out real quick. I talked about how I wasn't so healthy because the first thing I would give up was my workouts. But I'm retired. I've got my mornings free. I can drop the kids at school, and the gym is even on the way home from school. So I have absolutely no excuse. So I need to work on my health. I need to get that in order. And here is specifically what I'm going to do. I'm going to stop at the gym on the way home. I'm going to stay there for two hours. I'm going to get a trainer if I need to, or find an app or whatever. I've got an app that helps me with my workouts. So make a list of that stuff and then figure out how your time is going to help you accomplish those things.

[Mindy Jensen]

One of the things that really helped me get into the habit of going to the gym is putting it on my calendar. And I have my work calendar, is my official calendar. So I make sure that nobody schedules any meetings or any recordings or any. Anything while I'm at the gym, because it's already blocked off on my calendar. If you live by a calendar. Start incorporating things into your calendar that help you lead a less messy middle. If you think you have a messy middle, you should rethink how you're living right now. You should be living a life that lights you up all the time, not focusing on what you're going to do once you reach financial independence.

[Carl]

Yeah. The whole point of financial independence is to increase your level of happiness. And if you're sacrificing that just to get to that point, you've missed the whole point because you're giving up happiness to get to happiness. So you need to find a way to get there and have the least messy middle you can. And I don't think it has to be a sacrifice either. You might not be able to do all the big things you want to do after you're done, but you can do them on a smaller scale. If fancy hotels are your thing, you might not be staying at the Four Seasons and San Francisco. Maybe you're staying at a lesser hotel or whatever. But there's ways to do most of the things you love while you're still working on living this life. Unless you like race horses or race cars, then you're probably out of luck. And maybe you should just stay at your job because those things are very expensive. But, yeah, you got to pursue happiness the whole entire time. Wishing your days away for a better day is not the right way.

[Mindy Jensen]

I like the way you phrase that. Don't give up happiness now so that you can be happy later. Incorporate happiness the whole time.

[Carl]

Yep.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah. All right, Carl, thank you so much for joining me today on the Messy Middle. I appreciate you stepping in when Scott stepped away. You still don't get to take over my position, though.

[Carl]

I thought you said there was a chance of that.

[Mindy Jensen]

There's zero chance.

[Carl]

Do you think I could take over for Scott then? It could just be you and me.

[Mindy Jensen]

No.

[Carl]

Okay. Scott probably wouldn't like that either.

[Mindy Jensen]

Scott doesn't like that either. He loves doing the show.

[Carl]

I was happy.

[Mindy Jensen]

Not today while he's out gallivanting around.

[Carl]

Yeah, I was very happy to film. This was super fun.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah, this is super fun. Thank you, sweetheart. All right. Would you like more financial independence information? Hop on over to biggerpocketsmoney.com and sign up for our newsletter, which I send out only once a week on Wednesdays, giving you information about financial independence, ideas to be thinking about, even some recaps of what we have been talking about on the show, just in case you missed it. You can also find free resources. Calculators and templates to help you on your financial independence journey. So hop on over to biggerpocketsmoney.com all right, Carl, thank you again for joining me. That wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast.

[Carl]

Oh, where can people find you in Longmont?

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah, just stop on by.

[Carl]

I have a blog called 1500days.com. Just the number 1-500-days.com, which is how long I thought it would take me to retire. And boy, those days have been over a long time. But I still enjoy the writing, so I have not hit the delete button on the blog quite yet.

[Mindy Jensen]

All right, thank you so much for listening and we will see you next week. Geek Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Because behind every headline is a bottom line. Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion billion dollar swings. There's a money side to every story. And when you see the money side, you understand what others miss. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe [e-mail]

[Scott Trench]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did it and have one of your assistants assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Mindy Jensen]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra default terms at mintmobile. Com.