The Money Date: What Couples Should (& Shouldn't) Do to Align Finances

Summary

BiggerPockets Money Podcast: Episode 157 – The Money Date: What Couples Should (& Shouldn't) Do to Align Finances

Release Date: December 31, 2024

In Episode 157 of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast, hosts Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench delve into a crucial aspect of financial harmony for couples: the "Money Date." This episode serves as an encore of one of their favorite discussions, offering listeners a comprehensive guide on how to effectively align finances with their partners. Whether you're seeking financial independence or aiming to optimize your monetary strategies as a couple, this episode provides invaluable insights and practical steps to foster financial unity and success.

1. Introduction: The Importance of a Financial Plan Together

The episode opens with Mindy Jensen emphasizing the significance of setting financial goals for the upcoming year. She states, “It’s half the battle to make sure you have a financial plan. But is your partner on the same page?” (00:00). This sets the stage for a deep dive into how couples can collaboratively develop and execute a financial plan that aligns with both partners' aspirations.

2. Understanding the Money Date

Scott Trench introduces the concept of a "Money Date," highlighting its prevalence among successful couples interviewed on the show. He notes, “Most of the couples we speak to have a regularly scheduled time to sit down with their partner and discuss their financial situation” (01:09). However, he points out that while many couples practice it, there's often a lack of structured guidance on conducting these meetings effectively.

3. Setting Up the Money Date

a. Choosing the Right Time and State of Mind

One of the foundational elements of a successful Money Date is conducting it in a "peak state." Scott explains, “If you're dragging your partner along and they're not, you’re going to set mediocre goals” (02:15). Achieving a peak state involves selecting a time when both partners are relaxed and energized, such as after a morning coffee or light exercise, rather than after a stressful day or an argument. Mindy shares her personal peak and unpeak states, emphasizing the importance of timing: “My peak state is probably right after I've gotten up, I've had my coffee and I am relaxed and ready to go” (03:48).

b. Avoiding Accusations and Fostering Collaboration

Mindy underscores the necessity of approaching the Money Date without blame: “If you are listening to this without your spouse, you are the one who wants to make changes to your financial situation. Accusing your spouse... is not the right way to get buy-in” (05:34). The conversation should be framed as a joint effort to improve the financial landscape together, ensuring it remains non-confrontational and cooperative.

c. Preparing Homework and Creating a Vision

Preparation is key. Scott advises couples to come prepared with their own financial data and a vision for their future: “Drive the meeting yourself and come prepared with your homework and your plans to your initial stab at painting a vision for the future together” (07:38). Mindy adds that each partner should independently prepare their vision: “Prepare a vision for your family during the money date. You're going to compare those visions” (16:21). This ensures that both partners have clear, individual aspirations that can be harmonized during the discussion.

4. Conducting the Money Date

a. Tracking Spending and Net Worth

Before the Money Date, couples should meticulously track their spending and assess their net worth. Scott recommends going back at least six months to understand average spending patterns: “If you can get that much data... that will give you the most, I think, complete picture of what you're really spending on an average basis” (11:12). Mindy emphasizes reviewing this data without judgment to identify patterns and areas for improvement: “Once you have tracked your spending, go back and review where your money's going, and you will start to see patterns” (13:06).

b. Simplifying Budget Categories

To make the review manageable, Scott suggests categorizing expenses into five to seven major buckets: “Bucket your spending into no more than, let's call it five to seven major categories” (14:28). Mindy concurs, adding that while an overall picture is beneficial, detailed categorization allows for pinpointing specific areas to cut back on: “When you're starting to look at where you can cut, you definitely want to go in and nitpick everything” (15:26).

c. Setting a Vision for the Future

Mindy advises each partner to prepare a vision for the family's financial future, covering aspects like living arrangements, lifestyle, and major goals: “Prepare a vision for the family... What do you see yourself in five years?” (16:21). Scott complements this by recommending concise, written visions that outline day-to-day life and long-term aspirations: “Don’t write pages and pages... just do something that's like two or three paragraphs” (17:44).

d. Scheduling the Meeting

Choosing a dedicated time without distractions is crucial. Mindy suggests opting for quiet evenings or weekends, ensuring both partners are free from interruptions: “Make sure your spouse is available at that time. Don’t force them into anything” (20:08). Scott adds that aligning the meeting with the partner's peak state enhances effectiveness: “Bias towards your partner's peak time whenever they're going to be feeling really good” (21:34).

e. Creating an Agenda

Having a clear agenda keeps the conversation focused. Scott proposes a simple three-point agenda: alignment on vision, setting achievable goals, and establishing a regular review cadence: “It might be three points. It might be get alignment on your vision... set a cadence for regular money dates” (23:25). Mindy recommends writing the agenda on paper to ensure transparency and engagement: “Write this down on a piece of paper so it’s not your computer screen that they can’t see” (23:16).

5. Implementing and Maintaining Financial Alignment

a. Setting Achievable Goals

The hosts stress the importance of setting realistic, small-scale goals that are easier to implement and sustain. Mindy advises against drastic, immediate changes which can be overwhelming: “Small changes are going to give you the best opportunity for that success” (27:38). Scott echoes this by cautioning against creating an unsustainable plan driven by initial enthusiasm: “If you can do something that’s sustainable, you’re going to be much more successful in the long run” (32:44).

b. Regular Check-ins and Reviews

Establishing a regular meeting schedule ensures continuous progress and accountability. Mindy recommends starting with weekly or monthly dates to keep the momentum: “If you're first starting out, a weekly or monthly date is going to have better success for you” (35:10). Scott adds that these check-ins can be brief, focusing on progress and adjusting goals as needed: “It can just be a small check-in to keep you on track and reset” (37:14).

c. Positive Reinforcement and Reward Systems

Acknowledging each other's successes fosters a supportive environment. Mindy suggests praising your partner’s achievements while constructively addressing personal setbacks: “Praise your partner’s successes while kind of highlighting your failures” (35:48). Scott advises integrating reward systems that motivate both partners without derailing financial goals: “What is it that you like and how do you make sure that those are granted as you move towards those goals” (37:56).

6. Tools and Resources

To aid couples in their financial planning, Scott and Mindy recommend several resources:

• Worksheets and Templates: Available for download at biggerpockets.com/moneyshow157, these include financial tracking sheets and goal-setting templates.

• Books:

  • The Miracle Morning Millionaires by Hal Elrod and David Osborne
  • The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale
  • Living Your Best Year Ever by Darren Hardy
  • The 12 Week Year
  • BiggerPockets Intention Journal

• Online Communities: Engaging with supportive communities such as the BiggerPockets Money Facebook group, Mustachians, ChooseFI, and FinCon can provide additional motivation and accountability.

7. Conclusion: Embracing the Money Date for Financial Success

Mindy and Scott wrap up by reiterating the core principles of a successful Money Date: setting it in a positive atmosphere, coming prepared, maintaining regular communication, and focusing on incremental progress. They encourage listeners to share their Money Date successes and seek support within the BiggerPockets community.

As Scott aptly summarizes, “Focus on progress, not perfection” (49:49). By adhering to these guidelines, couples can cultivate a harmonious financial partnership, paving the way for sustained wealth growth and mutual financial independence.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Mindy Jensen [00:00]:
  “It’s half the battle to make sure you have a financial plan. But is your partner on the same page?”

• Scott Trench [01:09]:
  “Most of the couples we speak to have a regularly scheduled time to sit down with their partner and discuss their financial situation.”

• Mindy Jensen [05:34]:
  “Accusing your partner... is not the right way to get buy-in.”

• Scott Trench [14:28]:
  “Bucket your spending into no more than, let's call it five to seven major categories.”

• Mindy Jensen [13:06]:
  “It is so eye opening.”

• Mindy Jensen [23:25]:
  “Write this down on a piece of paper so it’s not your computer screen that they can’t see.”

• Scott Trench [35:10]:
  “If you're first starting out, a weekly or monthly date is going to have better success for you.”

• Mindy Jensen [37:14]:
  “Highlight your spouse's successes.”

Final Thoughts

Episode 157 of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast offers a thorough blueprint for couples aiming to synchronize their financial goals and strategies. By instituting regular Money Dates, approaching financial discussions with empathy and preparation, and leveraging available resources, couples can navigate their financial journeys together with clarity and mutual support. Mindy and Scott’s practical advice ensures that listeners are well-equipped to foster a strong financial partnership, ultimately leading to sustained wealth and financial independence.

For more insights and resources, visit biggerpockets.com/moneyshow157.

Transcript

[Mindy Jensen]

Happy New Year's Eve. We hope you are taking time today to set up your financial goals for 2025 so that you are one step closer to achieving financial independence. In fact, Scott and I are busy doing just that. So today we are bringing you one of our favorite episodes for an encore. It's half the battle to make sure you have a financial plan. But is your partner on the same page? In this episode we'll talk about all of the things you should be discussing with your partner when it comes to money and most importantly, how to make sure it's fun. Listen on for more. Welcome to the Bigger Pockets of Money podcast show number 157 where Scott and I talk about how to have a money date with your partner. Scott, one of the things that we hear from couples over and over again when we interview them on the show is that they have a regularly scheduled money date with their partner. And we've never really talked about how to have a money date with your partner. I think today would be great to give kind of a step by step or set some guidelines for our listeners so that they can start off 2021 with a brand new outlook on their financial future.

[Scott Trench]

Yeah, I love it. This is something that I think is really important and I think that to more of a general goal setting conversation and then talk about how money specifically I think fits in that and how to have those conversations and be prepared in that. But like this is something that I do. I know you do. You and Carl are on the same page when comes to your finances. And I wouldn't say that Mindy and I are the end all be all experts on this stuff, but we do nerd out about goal setting and this kind of stuff. And so I think that this could be a helpful conversation. We'll give you a couple of things to download if you're interested. Those could be found at the show [e-mail] MoneyShow157 those will include a couple of worksheets and those types of things if you're interested in it. All free, but should we get into it?

[Mindy Jensen]

Mindy, one of the most frequently recommended ideas that our guests have shared is the money date. Most of the couples we speak to have a regular scheduled time to sit down with their partner and discuss their financial situation. Today Scott and I are going to tell you how you can set one up with your partner to set you on the road to financial success.

[Scott Trench]

All right, so let's just go ahead and jump right into it. So if you're Listening to this episode, you are probably this. It's either you and your spouse together or you on your own. And likely you are the one who's more of the goal setter or the person behind the driving force behind setting this up. If that's not true and your spouse is on board, you can probably skip some of what we're about to say. But if it is true and you need some help with that, listen on. So the first thing, if you're going to try to set up a money date or general goal setting discussion with your partner in the first place, the first part is actually setting that meeting and doing it in what I call peak state. If you're dragging your partner along and they're not, they don't really want to be there, or you're doing it yourself on a day where you're tired and exhausted, you're going to have a bad time, you're going to set mediocre goals and you're not going to realize, you know, get excited and realize your vision. So what is, what does peak state mean? It doesn't mean it's like the best you've ever felt in your life, but everyone goes through these, like, ebbs and flows of, you know, when we're feeling really good and when we're feeling a little bit down in the dumps or whatever. And you want to, if possible, create a situation where you're setting these goals in a situation where you're in a great mood. That's probably maybe after you've had your coffee in the morning or after light to moderate exercise, or after a really good day at work or on a weekend. It's probably not after six beers or after a hard day of work where you're a little demoralized or after a fighting match between your kids. Mindy, how do you think about your peak state?

[Mindy Jensen]

My peak state is probably right after I've gotten up, I've had my coffee and I am relaxed and ready to go. My unpeak state is probably right after I get the girls to bed because they don't like to go to bed. They like to fight about going to bed every night. It's the same argument, why can't I do this? Why do I have to go to bed so early? Why can't I stay up later? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's really not the best time for me to be setting my goals or talking about where I want to see myself financially in five years. So that's not the best time for me. Another good place is maybe on the beach on your honeymoon.

[Scott Trench]

Yeah. So Virginia and I did this while we were on our honeymoon on the beach. Yeah, it was after a workout and all that stuff. And you do it when you're feeling really, really good and if you're not, you just postpone it and do it another time. But yeah, whatever you need to do to buy that peak state from your spouse in particular and bring it yourself I think is key. So you may have to work and earn that one. So I don't know how wives do this for husbands, but for husbands with wives, I have now four or five weeks of experience and things like massages, honeymoons or trips, doing lots of the dishes for several weeks in a row, making a huge dent in cleaning the house or whatever. Those things all tend to be ways to put your spouse into a really good mood. Big smile and greeting, extra big one every day when you come home or whatever it is, whatever it is you need to do. I think to set that up and get that conversation and build that excitement I think is key without, you know, trying to force them into it. This is not a drag your spouse into the conversation type event. Otherwise you're going to set some mediocre goals that aren't really going to get bought in and you're not going to be motivated to achieve them.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah. Another thing I want you to think of when you are thinking about setting a money date is no accusations. If you are listening to this without your spouse, you are the one who is the, the one who wants to make changes to your financial situation. Accusing your spouse, I'm sorry, accusing your partner of being the reason that we have to have this money date in the first place. It's not the right way to get buy in from your spouse. Here is what I would like. I would like our financial situation to change. I think it is within our means to do this. I would like to do it with you. I would like to have a conversation together. Let's start off by looking at our financial page. Let's have a financial picture. Let's look at what our goals are. What are your goals? Where do you see yourself in five years? Let's talk these things through in a non confrontational way. That is the best way to get buy in in this. You're both in this together. It is not a competition, it is not a battle or it shouldn't be a battle. It should be a conversation where you're both on the same page and moving forward every single time you have this conversation.

[Scott Trench]

Yep. And I also think you know another rule that is closely aligned with that and that can avoid that accusatory state in these meetings or this, this, this date is to come prepared with some homework and be ready to go with like here's what I think here, here's a vision that I'm painting for our future together. You know, and this should be based in, grounded in what you know about yourself and what you know about your partner. Right? Like you, you got your, your, this is your spouse or your person, the person that you're going to be planning your financial future with. Surely you know some of the things that they like to do or the, the world in which they'd like to live. And surely you, as you paint a vision or begin the process of, of mapping that out and, and how your financial, how you want to move your financial position forward, that it supports those things that, that, that that partner wants to do in some of those ways so well and that we'll get into this in much in a great detail here. But I think that that's a, that's the third piece of this is, you know, if we're going to rephrase those, if we're going to restate all these three rules, it's set the goals in a peak state condition when you're both feeling up to it, energized, invigorated and ready to and bought into the process. Don't accuse your partner of the one being the one that's holding you back from the goals. Attack it together. And three, drive the meeting yourself and come prepared with your homework and your plans to your initial stab at painting a vision for the future together and how you want to get there.

[Mindy Jensen]

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[Mindy Jensen]

The rules of the money date. Let's talk about things that you should do before, before you come to the money date. You can't just say let's have a money tape. Okay, go. You need to come prepared. You need to do your homework. And you should not expect your spouse to be as prepared as you are that unless you're both listening to this together and you're on the same page, that is not going to happen. So come in with your feelings and your thoughts in a non accusatory way. So number one, you're going to want to track all of your spending and your net worth. And this is something that you can do retroactively by looking at past credit card statements and looking at your bank statements. And try to remember where your money has gone in the past month. Of course, we just had the holidays. You may have extra spending in December, but you can still see where money's going. Track your spending again in January. Maybe go back to November or October and see where your spending is there too.

[Scott Trench]

And if you're really gung ho, go back six months because that'll give you a much clearer picture of what your average spending is. If you can get that much data. But that might take you a few hours. Hours. But that will give you the most, I think, complete picture of what you're really spending on an average basis.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah, and Scott just said the word hour that this might sound daunting, but you're changing your entire financial life. It's worth an investment like this.

[Scott Trench]

Absolutely. Now if this is. Again, this is before the money date. So if some of that spending is controlled by your spouse, maybe they're not combined or whatever. My suggestion, I think, would be to just track everything. You can track everything that you spend, everything that you have easy access to in your. In the bank accounts that you can see. And if your spouse is very open and amenable, ask. Ask that. But ask for that. But if it. If that seems like it's difficult, at least at first, before the talk, just track what you can track and figure out what you're. What you're able to see there.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yes. And once you have tracked it all, go back and review it. When you're tracking it, you're doing it without any judgment. You're just writing down numbers, plugging in numbers. Once you have finished tracking your spending, go back and review where your money's going, and you will start to see patterns. If you're like me, if you're like anybody else, you will start to see patterns. Oh, look at me. Doing this on a consistent basis. And do I really need that? Is it. Where is your money going? Where you really want it to go? I know I harp on this all the time. Regular listeners are going to say, wow, Mindy, you've never told us to track your spending. Every single episode. There's a reason I say track it. It is so eye opening. When you haven't tracked it to. When you first start tracking it, you're like, holy cow, I can't believe I'm spending money at these places. Because when you're spending the money, it's only a dollar, it's only $20, it's only $50, it's only whatever only means to you. But it adds up, and it adds up a lot. And it's quite shocking. It was to me how much I was spending at different places, and it was so easy to change how much I was spending just by being cognizant of where my money was going.

[Scott Trench]

Yep. And another tip on that. As you're doing that, you know, I think it's critical to bucket your spending into no more than, let's call it five to seven major categories. You know, if you need to, you can go slightly beyond that. But if you've got 25 line items in a spreadsheet that is completely overwhelming and distracting and difficult to bring up with other parties, it's. It's hard to do that at work with people who do this for a living. I can only imagine how difficult that will be to review that many line items. With your spouse, especially if they're just getting started with this and getting introduced to these concepts. So bucket into five to seven categories. Your utility bill, that's part of your housing expense, your gas that's part of your auto expense, along with your car payment, along with your insurance, along with your maintenance. Those types of things. Bucket them together. Keep it simple, stupid. When you're, when you're reviewing your spending their food bucket, your grocery bill and your eating out budget is food. Break them out within that category if you need to. If you want to go and take a deeper dive into it. If you think that's an inflection point. But for the purposes of your overall budget and your overall spending, lump them into those big categories and keep it super, super simple. For those types of things, entertainment, miscellaneous, and other, one giant category, dump it all in there. All the little, little things that you're getting. Those types of things. Mindy's raising an eyebrow. You disagree with some of that categorization, Mindy?

[Mindy Jensen]

I do. In the beginning, when you are looking for places to cut, if you have an enormous gas bill, gasoline for your car, one of the. If you've got that lumped in with your insurance and your car payment, that can just be, well, I guess I just spend a lot on my car. When you break it out, you can see, oh, you know what? I never, ever take the. I never consolidate my, my errands or I'm paying way too much for car insurance because I've never had it re quoted or, wow, my car payment is $1,000 a month and I make $3,000 a month take home. Maybe I should reconsider my choices. So for the purposes of this spending, this first money date, maybe having the, the overall picture is good just to see it, but when you're starting to look at where you can cut, you definitely want to go in and nitpick everything.

[Scott Trench]

Absolutely. And I just want to chime in. I completely agree with that. I just think that for the purposes of reviewing your budget, you're trying to create a pie chart basically, like, where are my big buckets of spending? And if my car and auto spending is $2,000, then I break into that, then I break that one back out and look at that as an individual item. And then I did the exact same exercise, five to seven categories and say, okay, great, now I'm spending all this money on gas or my car payment or my insurance. Wow, I can begin eliminating those, but I can at least zoom out from the highest level and say, oh, it's that car payment seems like a place to look. That's the 80, 20 rule. Where it can be impactful seems to be in that car or the housing or the food or the entertainment portions of my budget, rather than these other categories. And then, of course, you go in and do that deep dive. That's the whole point of that, to make sure to figure out, you know, which item I want to cut back on this month or the next six months.

[Mindy Jensen]

Okay, that's fair. I'll give you that. Scott, the next thing you want to do before your meeting actually happens is to prepare a vision for your family. That's you preparing the vision for your family. It's okay for this vision to morph over time, and it will morph over time, because once you get into the money date, you're going to ask your spouse to do the same thing. Prepare a vision for the family during the money date. You're going to compare those visions. But we're not to the money date yet. We're just doing the setup. So you want to make sure that you have, you know, what's important to you. Do you want to know where you want to live in five years, or do you want to know where your kids are going to school? Do you have children? Is it a family situation? It's an overall. Your first money date is very, very broad. In five years, I want to have a child or I want to be done having children. In five years, my oldest daughter will be out of the house almost, which is actually kind of exciting, but also a little sad. I kind of feel like, like I'm not old enough to have a kid that age. But I am definitely old enough to have a kid that age. You know, just what do you see? I want to be able to prepare to pay for her college. So in five years, my goal is to have enough money to pay for her college so she doesn't have to take out student loans.

[Scott Trench]

Yeah. And when, when it, when, when it comes to this vision stuff, I'm sure you've heard it a million times from different places. We're not the people inventing this, of course, but my advice would just be to, to keep it simple. Again, don't, don't write pages and pages in this vision, at least not the first time. Just do something that's like two or three paragraphs, less than half a page, typed in Microsoft Word or Google Sheets or something like that. And, and just say, kind of think, think about things like where do I want to live? What do I want my day to day life to be like, what do I want to do? What do I want to do in that day to day? Do I want to. Do I want to exercise? Do I want to eat? I want to be healthy? Do I want to enjoy times of times, time with friends and family? Do I want to be doing impactful work of whatever type it is that that you might want to be doing? What kind of environment do you want to be? We're in Denver, Colorado, by the mountains and beautiful ski areas and hiking. Do you want to be there? Do you want to be by the beach? Do you want to be in the, out in the wilderness, in the woods, you know, or by a lake? Like what, what is it about your environment that you want to be in? What do you want your family life to be? Like, what kind of family do you want? And then just go around that. And so a great way, if you're struggling with this vision concept to just get basically started is to download the. What's called the wheel of life, right? So it's a very simple circular spread like piece of paper. We'll link to it in the show, a version of it in the show notes. And it's just, it creates arbitrary life categories like career, money, health, you know, business, if you own a business, fun, leisure, relationships, mental health and learning those types of things. And you basically rank yourself like, am I miserable in this category of life or am I ecstatic miserably being a one, ecstatic being a ten? And after you map it out, if you can follow along with what I'm saying here, you'll get like either a circle if you're really well balanced, or you'll get like a very spindly little thing where you're like eight on one and two on the other. Anyways, this can be a very helpful tool in just kind of getting you an idea about like where you feel you're strong, where you feel you're weak in life and where you want to begin focusing on that vision. Like what do you, where do you want to be? So I recommend downloading that and just filling it out. It'll take a few minutes and give you kind of a picture, a zoomed out view of how you self assess your life, which I think can help you write that vision.

[Mindy Jensen]

The next thing you want to do is set a time with your spouse that you both agree on to have this conversation. Again. Don't do this right after a very stressful day at work. Pick the time of day or week that is really easy for you to have a Nice conversation and sit down and have the conversation. Make sure your spouse is available at that time. Don't force them into anything. Again, you're asking them most likely to make some changes to their life that they may not be really excited about making. So a quiet evening where you don't have any distractions. And one of those distractions might be children. If you have young children and you can't have a time, there isn't a time available to have it after they go to bed. Get a babysitter, schedule somebody to come over or take the kids someplace else so that you have an uninterrupted conversation time. This conversation is going to take a while. It is not a five minute conversation, it's not a 30 minute conversation. And you don't want to be rushed because you're talking about your financial future. So sit down with your spouse, have some snacks, have some light drinks. And Scott and I were like, maybe we should say skip the alcohol during the conversation.

[Scott Trench]

Alcohol is for after the conversation.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yes. Have a bottle of wine chilling for afterwards. But during the conversation you want to be clear headed and open to the discussion.

[Scott Trench]

Yeah, and I want to go, you know, it's going to be different for everybody. But Mindy, you and I, we both just talked about this while we were kind of thinking through the show Notes to today. Both of our peak states are kind of in the morning or not. Not the early morning necessarily for me, but in the morning hours. You know, right around, right around this time we record these podcasts around 9 or 10 in the morning Denver time. And that's about my peak state. That's when I feel like the best. That's the coffee has kicked in and I'm starting to feel very energized. I feel wide awake and ready to get going. Prepare your goals, whatever that time is for you. And it may be in the morning, it may be in the afternoon, maybe in the very early morning if you're Mindy, but, but prepare it then. And then I would bias towards moving more towards your partner's peak time whenever they're going to be feeling really good when you go do your partner date because you know you want to set that up. And I bet you that's not going to be on a stressful day after work. It may be on a Friday night, earlier in the evening on a date before you have the drinks. That could absolutely be it. But, but just I would, I would think about what it is your what, what your partner's peak state would be before setting that up. And then you, like Mindy said, making sure you have a quiet, dedicated time and space set up for that.

[Mindy Jensen]

Good tip, Scott. Yes. You want your partner to be on board and their peak state is more important than your peak state for this first conversation.

[Scott Trench]

Yeah. Especially if you, if you're able to set some time alone to do it to figure out what kind of you want or your first draft of it that you might present at this meeting, that might be helpful.

[Mindy Jensen]

The last thing we want you to do before the money date is prepare an agenda and stick to it during the date. What does an agenda look like, Scott?

[Scott Trench]

I don't think an agenda has to be overwhelming. It might be three points. It might be get alignment on your vision. It might be determine some of the goals that you need to do for the next year to move towards that and then to set a cadence for regular money dates and goal reviews on an ongoing basis. Might be as simple as that. Just those three things.

[Mindy Jensen]

And I'm going to say write this down on a piece of paper so it's not your computer screen that they can't see necessarily, but this is a piece of paper that you have. This is what we're going to do. Let's talk about our vision. So during the money date, bring your piece of paper that says this is my vision. This is what I think would be great to have for our family, for our couple, for our household, and compare it to what their vision is. This can be rather eye opening because not everybody's vision is the same. Really? Really. Read through your spouse's vision. Let them go first. Let them explain anything that you have questions about. This is what I want. This is where I see us going.

[Scott Trench]

Yep. And you know, you, you will know your spouse. So you may, we hope a little bit better than we do so. So you don't have to come with the draft if you think your spouse will just want to work from scratch with it. You can come, you can have written down your thoughts somewhere else and be prepared with them to contribute to the conversation. But you don't need to have it prepared if that's not the way your spouse will roll. On the other hand, if your spouse really visual, you can bring that as a starting point, or if they are proactive, they can, you can ask them to bring their own and begin working with that one. It's just whatever way you think is the most healthy way to work between you and your spouse, I think is the right way to the right way for you. There's a whole bunch of options Here, but I think, I think it is, you know, we're airing towards the side of thinking through how the situation might go for a less, a less than enthusiastic spouse, at least at first, and how to, how to, how to win them on board with this brand. So just if that's you, think about what you need to do to get there. Oh, and by the way, you have additional homework before the money date, which is to win your money date, which I think we mentioned earlier. But do whatever it is you need to do. That's nice to bring them in to get them really excited, whether that's the dishes for two months in a row. You know, creating free time with the kids, where you take the kids away for a day and give your spouse some alone time or whatever else it is. That's a set of nice, wonderful things you can do to make sure that your spouse is thrilled with you and excited for this talk. Do it.

[Mindy Jensen]

Spoken like a true I've been married for five minutes guy.

[Scott Trench]

That's right. Yes.

[Mindy Jensen]

But it's great advice. It's great advice. You don't want to start a whole week of fights with your spouse and then be like, hey, we got to talk about money now. That is not going to get a lot of buy in.

[Scott Trench]

And look, if, if, if you have your date all set up and everything's ready to go and you have a big fight right before it and you're not in peak state, postpone it and try again another time. Right. It's all it is. It's, it's like, don't overthink this. You just want to be in a good mood and feeling and both being bought in and excited before you start setting goals for your life together. Otherwise you're going to, you're going to set mediocre goals or not be. Yeah. You know, really dreaming up the possibilities and bought into them. Right.

[Mindy Jensen]

Once your spouse has shared all of their goals, start asking how can we make this happen? Questions.

[Scott Trench]

Yeah. So, and I would output that into a paragraph format. Right. So this is when you talk about the vision, two separate things. The first step is the vision, which again, I would just, I would just jot down in two or three paragraphs something very simple. We are going to live here. Our life's going to look like this day to day. You know, Jaden's going to do this and Joe's going to do this and yada yada. And you have a couple paragraphs on that. And that's without worrying about the how. That's not goals. It's not, I need this much money to get there. It's just exactly what you'd like your life to be in 3, 5, 7, 9, 15 years. Whatever you think is an appropriate timeline to get there, you just, you just map that out. And don't worry about the how. Then we get to the goals. The goal setting part, which I know is what Mindy's very excited about.

[Mindy Jensen]

Okay, you want to come up with a plan for success. Remember, large changes are going to be met with hesitation. Your spouse is not really excited to change everything about them, especially if they are the perhaps reason that you are having this conversation to begin with. If you're not on the same financial page, chances are good you're listening to this. You're the one who's better with money, and I'm doing air quotes, but you can't hear those. So come up with a plan for success. Small changes are going to give you the best opportunity for that success, and they're easier to implement and become permanent. I don't want to cut out all my spending at Target. Maybe I cut out going every other week, or maybe I don't go on weekends, or maybe I only go with a list and stick to the list and I can't buy anything that isn't on the list. There are lots of ways to make changes to your spending without having them be draconian. And you have to do this. It feels so awful to be told what to do. So coming up with a plan for success isn't you telling your spouse. It's you asking your spouse, how do you think we can achieve this thing that we want to change?

[Scott Trench]

That's right. Yeah. So it's all in the context as well of those that bigger vision, like, okay, great, now I've got that vision. I want to live on the lake with a boat and spend no more than 20 hours a week working a job that I love. That is high impact. That's part time. I don't need the money. I've got, you know, and I'm spending most of my time with my family. We have. We have friends over all the time and. Okay, great. I'm making this up. This is not my vision. That's just one that I invented here, okay? And so that vision requires now a certain financial position and other things that you're going to have to do. So maybe it's. Maybe it's. You're going to have to develop 40,000 a year in passive income over the next five to seven or 10 years. Great. Now how do I go about doing that now. I've got a one year or three year or whatever smart goal. Right. A goal that is something measurable that, that I can, that I can begin working towards. And then from there you have to have the discussion about the best way to achieve that. Is it by compressing my budget? Is it by focusing on investments like real estate or other business opportunities? Or is it by just buckling down at work and getting that big promotion so you can get the next payday or whatever? Right. Those are things that you have to work on with your spouse to figure out what's going to be right. Although you should come in again with some directional guidance about how you think the best way to achieve it is so that you can initiate the conversation. It's one thing to initiate, to initiate the conversation and have a baseline of a plan. It's another to tell your spouse what to do in that conversation. Again, you're driving the meeting and driving this change, but you want to do it with buy in and get input.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah, I don't think I can stress how important it is to make small changes first. The five year plan is not something that gets started tomorrow, jumping in with both feet and cutting out everything or completely overhauling absolutely everything about you because that's going to be really, really difficult to maintain. What you want to do is look at the five year plan. Okay, I want to have a better job. I want to increase my income. Okay, great. Let's look at what you need to do to increase your income. You need to change jobs. Now might not be the best time to be looking for a new job, but it's always a good time to be learning a new skill that can help you get to that next job. There's always an opportunity to look at different jobs in the same field. A Purple Life said that she increased her income every time she changed jobs. So she changed jobs frequently. And the old advice not to change jobs and not to look like a job hopper is no longer really valid. So if your job doesn't have a great, your company doesn't have a great potential for increasing your income. Maybe it's time to look at other companies, see what's going on in the industry. Obviously, if it's, you know, a volatile industry, maybe now is not the best time to try and get an extra couple of bucks. Maybe that would be better served after we have figured out coronavirus.

[Scott Trench]

Absolutely. I think that's, that's 100% correct. The temptation I always have because I get so motivated. Because again, you're setting the goals in peak state, you're feeling really wonderful and enthusiastic. You're your spouse are on board. You've just done a million nice things for your spouse. Your relationship is at its peak level. Lots of things are going right going into your date and you're like motivated to make all these changes at once and you create a completely unsustainable plan. So I just did this recently and I have to walk back and make, and go back and try to be a little, make some smaller changes that are more sustainable for me in order to move towards our vision. And so just think about that as you're doing that and know that the bias is going to be towards, you know, making, doing everything all at once. But if you can do something that's sustainable, you're going to be much more successful in the long run.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah. And as you find success in making small changes, then you can increase those changes or add in new changes.

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[Mindy Jensen]

The last thing we want you to do when you're setting up a money date is to set a regular, regularly scheduled date. Weekly, monthly, quarterly, annually. I do believe if you're first starting out, a weekly or monthly date is going to have better success for you. I really want to do weekly. I want you to do every Friday night, every Saturday morning, every, you know, as just to check in with your spouse. Hey, we were going to do this this week. How did it work out? I keep saying spouse. I mean to say partner. I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be that person.

[Scott Trench]

I think it's fine. Yes, we want to use we'll bias towards partner. But I think that it's. I forgive you, Mindy.

[Mindy Jensen]

Thank you.

[Scott Trench]

Okay, so yeah, I think that that's right. You know, set the regular cadence. And by the way, this is beginning to sound overwhelming. It shouldn't be. You need to spend the time you need to set up your personal vision and those types of things. But your first money date can be an hour or 45 minutes to bang these things out. Perfect is the enemy of good in this case. And your vision, what you want, your goals will change over time. So don't lock in too hard to any of these things, especially at first. Write that vision, keep it in a draft, update it regularly at these weekly or monthly things as you kind of learn more and move towards it. The target will move slightly over time. So again you don't have to get it perfect. Perfect's the enemy. A good when it comes to this stuff. And these regular cadence meetings don't have to be like a two hour in depth board meeting where you go through every detail in your personal lives. In a business like fashion, it can be a 15 or 7 minute check in where you just kind of walk through spending really quickly and then write down some goals together that you want to get done for the next week. Three to five goals each or one to two goals each. It does not have to be an overwhelming process if you're going to do it, especially if you're going to do it on the higher K and that more frequency cadence like weekly or monthly. If you're going to do it quarterly or annually, maybe you set a little bit more time.

[Mindy Jensen]

I guess I just want to highlight that when you are the one who is driving this conversation during your, your subsequent check ins, praise your partner's successes while kind of highlighting your failures. Because when you are not seen as perfect, when they are being praised for the things that they're doing, the positive reinforcement is going to get more buy in and more cooperation down the road. And you know, this sounds, this almost sounds kind of manipulative and I don't mean it to be, but you want your partner to be on board with you, so give them every opportunity to feel good about what they're doing.

[Scott Trench]

Absolutely. I mean, look, if you're listening to this, if you're listening to this together with your spouse, great. You're not having, you're probably not going to have this issue. But if you're listening to this and you're trying to again get your spouse to approach this and begin doing these types of things, you need to give a lot more, especially at the beginning of this to get them on board. Right. And so that means if you want to do a weekly or monthly review, you've got to buy that goodwill to a certain degree. Right. And how do you do that? You again go out of your way, make sure that they're in peak state and excited to go about this. Every time you go and meet about these goals and that it's showing, it's helping them reap rewards in their lives. Right. So that comes down to, you know, how do you make it easy, how do you make it automatic, how do you make it at the same time, how do you get them excited about it? And perhaps one way to do that, which is another one of our tips here is reward yourself and your partner as you move towards Those goals. Right. So what is it that you like? Do you like to travel? Do you like dates? Do you like. I don't know. Those are the only two things I can think of right now. But what is it that you guys like and how do you make sure that those are granted as you move towards the goals that you're trying to achieve and hit a couple of weeks in a row?

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah. I do want to say that if you are, maybe if you're working towards fixing your finances, maybe your reward is a low cost reward such as a delicious chocolate bar or we get to go out for dinner at a relatively inexpensive restaurant or we get to go out for drinks and have a babysitter or we get to go on a hike. Whatever it is that you reward yourself with, just don't undo all the positive work you just did by you know, we went to the Bahamas, all expenses paid. I guess all expenses paid is, is not.

[Scott Trench]

Make it proportional if that's the case. Right. So if you're, if you're, if you're $50,000 in debt and you, one of the milestones is paying off 25,000, well simultaneously put together that trip to the Bahamas. If that's what, if that's what it takes to motivate you, but make sure that. Yeah, I would, you know, this is bigger, its money. Let's be responsible with the money decisions and those types of things and make sure that they're effective in motivating you and your partner. And also, you know, continue, you know, don't completely derail you off your goals. You know, don't finance that trip with the credit card. Okay, so last tip here, you know, following the money date is to set up systems. In fact, I wouldn't even focus on the work necessarily after your money, your money date. I would focus on setting up the systems that will automate that. So for example, one of my things is I really want to improve my daily routine that I do every single day. I want to make sure I get a couple of things in around exercise, reading. Like self education. Yes. I'm starting to be one of those guys and go into meditation. Always been skeptical of that, but enjoying that so far. And so I'm just starting to do some of those types of things. And my, my, the, the key to sustaining that is to set up a system that makes sure that that happens no matter what every single day and that there's no way that it can't happen. Right. And so that's been first thing in the morning for me. Um, I Have a little small routine. And then I also have the option to extend any part of that. But I never missed my six minute routine. Um, and I, or I guess seven minute routine. And I can extend it if I am feeling good about it and want to keep doing it so well.

[Mindy Jensen]

That's interesting that it takes you six or seven minutes. I love that. That's. Anybody could do six or seven minutes. You could do a lot, almost anything for six or seven minutes.

[Scott Trench]

Yeah. I mean, you can, you know, if, for example, tracking your spending was a big part of that, you could review your spending for one of seven minutes every day. Right. You can, you know, you can browse one article for 2 minutes every single day. Right. On a topic that you're trying to learn more about. Right. You can, I don't know, there's a lot of things you can do, but if you can automate it so that you're able to just do at least one minute of activity every single day, that moves you towards one of your, you know, your top five to seven goals, I think that will be, that will make a huge difference.

[Mindy Jensen]

I completely agree, Scott.

[Scott Trench]

Or better yet, do nothing and have it happen anyways. Right. So that's like I'm going to automate that part of my paycheck goes straight into my 401k. Even better. So.

[Mindy Jensen]

And we want to hear about your money date successes because this is so key to so many other couples that we know who are financially successful because the money date is so key to their success. We want to hear about your success too. Send us an email. Mindy BiggerPockets.com ScottiggerPockets.com if you would like to share a private message, go to our Facebook group and share it with the entire group. The group is there to give you, to boost you up, not to make you feel bad about any past issues that you have had. They are here to support you in your, in your journey and they are super supportive. We have some really great members in our group. You can find [e-mail] groups bpmoney. But we really want to hear how. What's working for you or do you have. Are you hitting up on an issue that you need some help with? We can crowdsource that.

[Scott Trench]

Absolutely. While we're there, one of the things that people can struggle with is just basic getting started. And templates, like an example, can be helpful sometimes. So again, we'll have examples. I think there'll be about four worksheets. One will be. And these are just simple Microsoft Word worksheets. These are. We are not goal setting professionals, we're goal setting nerds. So feel free to download them and print them out. Modify them however you'd [e-mail] moneyshow157 if you're interested in those types of things, there's also a couple of really good books on the subject. One that I read recently was the Miracle Morning and more specifically the Miracle Morning Millionaires, which is by Hal Elrod and David Osborne. Really enjoyed that and that I think actually made a big impact on some of the goals that I'm setting. I'm still not necessarily a morning person, but I really liked what they had to say in the book the Power.

[Mindy Jensen]

I just hold on. I want to, I want to address that comment. I'm not a morning person. Scott once wrote an article that says I don't have to get up early to be successful in life or something like that on the Biggerpockets blog.

[Scott Trench]

Yeah, I do see the benefits in getting up early. I'm just not very consistent about it and don't think I will or need to be. But I think that having a daily routine that encompasses some of the big things and the habits that you need to to set to become successful over time, I think that's critical. I'm still skeptical about whether that needs to specifically happen in the morning, especially the early morning, or if it can happen in the late morning or afternoon.

[Mindy Jensen]

I think that you can sleep later than some of us and you can also stay up later. So if you've got the same, you know, 16 hours of awakeness, it's just shifted on the clock. Who am I to tell you when your 16 hours has to start?

[Scott Trench]

Yeah, or who was? Hell, I have an open mind and I am beginning to attempt to get up earlier. We'll see how long I sustained it. Mindy maybe, maybe if I sustained it for a long time and am able to get up earlier, I'll change my tune on it. What's another book you like on goal.

[Mindy Jensen]

Setting, Mindy Scott I really like the Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale. This book is older than dirt, but it is such a good book and you really have. It's. I have, I have a problem with people. Oh, just change your mindset and everything will change. Well, no, you also have to do work towards your goals. But changing your mindset can help you start to believe that you can achieve those goals. So this is not a book about oh, just change your mindset and everything will fall into place. But it is a book on how you can change your mindset and help help yourself get to where you're going. If you think, what is that phrase? If you think you can or you think you can't. You're right.

[Scott Trench]

Yeah. Whether you think.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yeah, yeah. So this helps you get in a better place to start believing that change is possible. It doesn't make the work non existent. You still have to do the work.

[Scott Trench]

That's right. Yeah. On, on that note, there's another, another kind of three more, I would say practical books that are kind of more templatized are going to be journals that I think we, you know, I've used or we've both used in the past. So the first is Living youg Best Year Ever, which is a journal from Darren Hardy. The Second is the BiggerPockets Intention Journal which is a 90 day journal. The living your best year ever will be a one year 52 week journal. And then the 12 week year is another book that kind of gives you a framework around setting goals in quarterly chunks or 12 week chunks with a week off at the end for a break. All five of these books, the Miracle Morning, Miracle Morning Millionaires, the Power of Positive Thinking, Living your best year ever, 12 week year and the intention journal from BiggerPockets are going to be linked to again in the show [e-mail] MoneyShow157 all right, so we're going to recap this and if you're just listening and you want a 90 second overview, well this will be it. So let's, let's, let's, let's dive into it. What are the rules that we have for the money date? 1. Set them in peak state. Right. Make sure that you are in your most energetic and enthusiastic state of mind before going and setting the goals and then do whatever is in your power to make sure that your spouse is in their peak state. Coming into the conversation. Do your homework and come prepared with an agenda. Be ready to drive the conversation and don't frame it from an accusatory position. Frame it as a you're in this together and we're going to go out there and build our best life together. And here's how money can support that vision.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yes. Scott said, do your homework. One of the things that you need to do before the money date is be prepared. Track your spending and your net worth so you come to the date with a position of knowledge. This is where we are at right now. This is where we want to be. Have your Spouse, prepare. Prepare a vision for the family and you prepare a vision for the family. This isn't something that you should prepare together. You should each prepare it separately and then come to the date to have that discussion. Once you've tracked your spending, review the numbers to see if there's any patterns that are easily changeable. The money wins that you get in the beginning are going to be the small wins that you can cut out without actually missing them.

[Scott Trench]

Yep, that's right. What? During the money date, make sure you've got that mutually agreed upon time. You're both energetic and in peak state. You've got the quiet and alone time to do it. You've got that prepared agenda. Get alignment on that vision. Mindy said prepare them separately. I think that is the best way to go about doing it. But know your spouse and if that's not going to work and you want to, you have to start from scratch together and that's the healthier way to it for you guys. Have that discussion beforehand and do that. Discuss what needs to be done to achieve the vision. That's where you begin framing out those goals. Come up with that plan and then set a cadence to review progress towards it regularly. While you're doing that, again, focus on progress, not perfection. Good is better than perfect and begin working towards those goals. Don't set enormous goals up front that are going to require you to be a perfect paragon of virtue and success right from the beginning. Focused on something that is easily achievable, that can be done every single day without fail. And if you can, just a minute or two on each goal per day can make meaningful progress towards it.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yes. Highlight your spouse's successes. Your partner is probably not the driving force for this change, so you want to make sure that you're highlighting what they're doing. Right. Don't really focus on their negatives, but maybe focus on the failures that you have had that week or the missteps that you have made. Hey, I've done this, but I can do better next week. It. That sounds so manipulative, Scott. And I don't mean it to be manipulative, but you want them to feel good about what they're doing. So continue to highlight what they're doing and praise their successes.

[Scott Trench]

Yeah, I just think genuine joy of working towards the goals together and a system of rewards that you set up that really that, that. That you enjoy, but really your spouse enjoys is the right way to go about setting those things up.

[Mindy Jensen]

I love it. I love it. And when you're having your in the beginning, when you're having your more regularly scheduled meetings, weekly or monthly is the best choice for you right now. Just so you can continue to stay up, stay on top of your goals. If you have a goal and hey, we're going to change our finances, talk to you in a year, it's probably not going to set you up for success. Continually talking about it, revisiting frequently is going to give you the most chance for success. See what's working and what isn't working. And if there's something that just isn't working, scratch it or move it to the back table and focus on the things that are working.

[Scott Trench]

Focus on progress, not perfection. And keep it simple. This is not an hour a week commitment that you guys both need to do to review everything in detail. It can just be a small check in to keep you on track and reset. Last tip here is I think a big thing to do as you're kind of heading into the new year and setting these goals is it can feel like a vacuum when you're talking about finances. Maybe like the stuff that we're talking about on the Money show is not stuff that your family, friends or colleagues are talking about. And it's kind of a different viewpoint on how to, how to live your life and how to run your personal financial situation. And that can be overwhelming or demotivating. So what I recommend is finding a way to saturate yourself with more of this type of stuff. And one way to do that is social media. So we've got of course the BiggerPockets Money Facebook group, the BiggerPockets Real Estate Rookie Facebook group. You can just type these into Facebook and find them. You can follow Money Folks or some of the many of the guests that we've had on Instagram. You can join other communities. Hey, you know, I love our BiggerPockets money community and I'm the most active there, but I'm also a member of other communities out there like the mustachians community for Mr. Money Mustache. And the Choose Fi has a great community and the Fincon community is great. But go join these communities online, especially the BiggerPockets money community of course, and just saturate yourself with that stuff. I think it's going to be a lot more healthy and will keep you motivated and focused on your goals as you see that kind of those kinds of things popping up in your feed rather than unhealthy stuff.

[Mindy Jensen]

That's really funny that you say that, Scott, as I scroll through Facebook. That's Basically, all I see is BiggerPockets money. BiggerPockets official group real estate rookie. Choose FI. Choose FI real estate and one that I am a member of because I'm a real estate agent. And it's. I'm always thinking and talking about money and real estate and. And I'm doing a lot with money in real estate. And it's just, I'm not, I'm not hearing bad news.

[Scott Trench]

I'm not hearing about politics, political events or whatever. I'm hearing about, you know, people succeeding with money and tough, interesting, nuanced debate on, you know, various different items like should I go with this index fund versus this one that are almost so close, identical, the same, that it doesn't matter at all, yet several hundred people have an opinion on it. That's healthy stuff to be surrounding yourself with or more healthy than a lot of the other junk that used to show up on my Facebook feed. So that's what I just encourage people to do is figure out a way to surround yourself with that stuff. Turn off the news, turn off the other stuff. That's. Yeah, if you can at least on a default basis and make it so that the default is you're surrounding yourself with like minded folks in the community because there are millions of them and there's lots of enthusiasm.

[Mindy Jensen]

Yes. And you will find that you are not the only frugal weirdo on the planet. It can be really difficult when you feel like you're an island and nobody else cares about money and nobody else talks about money and nobody else is cutting back and everybody else has a better car and everybody else has better clothes and better everything. Everything. That's not the case in most situations. That's not the case at all. So it's, it's really refreshing to get involved with a community that has the same mindset that you do.

[Scott Trench]

Well, should we get out of here, Mindy?

[Mindy Jensen]

We should. Scott from episode 157 of the Biggerpockets Money podcast. He is Scott Trench. I am Mindy Jensen, and we will see you next year.

[Scott Trench]

That's right.

[Mindy Jensen]

That never, ever gets old. The end of your joke. That never gets old.

[Scott Trench]

I'm excited. I'm excited for that one. This has been quite a year. All right, bye, everybody.

[Mindy Jensen]

Bye.