$100K/Year Passive Income with Cheap, Small, Repeatable Rentals

Summary

BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast: Episode Summary

Episode Title: $100K/Year Passive Income with Cheap, Small, Repeatable Rentals
Release Date: June 9, 2025
Host: Dave Meyer, Head of Real Estate at BiggerPockets
Guest: Nathan Nicholson, Growth Leader at Success Mortgage Partners, Louisville, Kentucky

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Introduction: Nathan Nicholson's Real Estate Journey

In this compelling episode, Dave Meyer welcomes Nathan Nicholson, an accomplished real estate investor from Louisville, Kentucky. Nathan shares his transformative journey from having only $30,000 in savings to building a robust portfolio of 22 properties that generate nearly $100,000 in annual passive income.

Notable Quote:
Nathan Nicholson [00:05]: “He had only $30,000 in the bank in his early 30s, despite a successful career. And at that point, retirement looked like a pipe dream.”

The Catalyst: Cashing Out the 401(k)

Nathan recounts a pivotal moment in his early 30s when he realized the necessity of taking control of his financial future. With limited savings and a daunting retirement outlook, he decided to explore real estate investing, influenced by observing his friends in the mortgage industry successfully building wealth through property investments.

Notable Quote:
Nathan Nicholson [02:05]: “I saw a lot of my friends in the mortgage industry buying real estate, and I just was wondering, how are they doing this?”

First Investments: Strategic and Cautious Beginnings

Nathan's entry into real estate was both bold and methodical. He made the significant decision to cash out his 401(k)—warning against such moves is common, but Nathan saw it as a necessary step given his financial circumstances. With approximately $85,000 to $100,000 from his 401(k), he embarked on purchasing affordable properties, starting with a foreclosure bought outright for $32,000.

Notable Quote:
Nathan Nicholson [03:59]: “It's really hard to find properties to rent. It’s a rental shortage in Louisville, Kentucky right now.”

Investment Philosophy: Embracing Small Footprints

Contrary to traditional real estate wisdom that often favors larger properties, Nathan focuses on "small footprint" homes, typically ranging from 700 to 1,300 square feet. This strategy allows him to minimize renovation costs and reduce potential financial risks. By investing in smaller, more manageable properties, Nathan ensures that repairs and maintenance remain affordable, even in adverse situations.

Notable Quote:
Nathan Nicholson [06:11]: “Smaller footprints to me just cost less. You could buy them cheaper. Now, they may not rent for as much, but in all honesty, with the price of goods right now, as far as contract work, you know, painting, repairs... I actually make more money how I do it.”

Scaling the Portfolio: The Snowball Effect

Nathan's strategy for scaling his portfolio hinges on reinvesting the cash flow generated by his properties. By meticulously saving and redirecting profits into new investments, he creates an "income snowball" that propels exponential growth. This disciplined approach has allowed him to acquire multiple properties each year, steadily increasing his passive income without overextending financially.

Notable Quote:
Nathan Nicholson [10:59]: “I've never used my real estate income for myself. I've always put it back into the business. One year I've got $15,000 while I could buy one property, right? Three years I'm buying a property every eight months. Six years I'm buying a property every six months.”

Adapting to Market Changes: Navigating a Shifting Landscape

As the real estate market evolves, Nathan emphasizes the importance of adaptability. With rising property prices and fluctuating interest rates, his strategies have shifted towards reducing debt and increasing cash flow. By focusing on properties that require minimal renovations and opting for higher down payments, Nathan ensures sustainable growth even in a competitive market.

Notable Quote:
Nathan Nicholson [16:14]: “How do I get my debt service paid off, right? How do I become more free and clear, how do I get rid of my leverage and how do I use that cash flow in order for me to create... an income snowball.”

Future Endeavors: Exploring New Horizons

Looking ahead, Nathan contemplates expanding his portfolio through various avenues, including purchasing larger multi-family properties, developing spec homes, and leveraging lines of credit to finance new projects. His forward-thinking approach ensures that his investments remain resilient and continue to generate substantial passive income.

Notable Quote:
Nathan Nicholson [25:38]: “I'm leveraging lines right now... building something out over six months, buying the land, owning it, cash, building out all the sewer and so forth... having a line of credit to do that is definitely very helpful, especially now.”

Key Takeaways: Wisdom for Aspiring Investors

Throughout the discussion, Nathan imparts valuable lessons for both novice and seasoned real estate investors:

1. Avoid Over-Leverage:
   Nathan warns against excessive borrowing, citing personal experiences and observations of others who faced financial ruin due to high leverage.

   Quote:
   Nathan Nicholson [27:38]: “I've seen a lot of people lose everything they have. Is the best way to put it.”

2. Reinvest Strategically:
   Continuously reinvesting profits into new properties accelerates portfolio growth and enhances passive income streams.

   Quote:
   Nathan Nicholson [05:00]: “Just snowball it. So work my W2 job and take that $16,000 in income. If I found a property that I could afford at that point, I might put ten or twelve grand into it.”

3. Focus on Cash Flow:
   Ensuring that each property generates positive cash flow is paramount for sustaining and growing a real estate portfolio.

   Quote:
   Nathan Nicholson [13:24]: “If you buy deal that works today, then all you're going to do is get upside when the market turns.”

4. Adapt to Market Dynamics:
   Being flexible and adjusting investment strategies in response to changing market conditions can safeguard and enhance investment outcomes.

   Quote:
   Nathan Nicholson [22:05]: “I feel like right now it's just maxed out. When rates start dropping... you're going to see a lot more opportunity.”

5. Build an Income Snowball:
   Rather than merely focusing on debt repayment, creating a growing stream of passive income can lead to long-term financial freedom.

   Quote:
   Nathan Nicholson [16:14]: “... I'm creating more of an income snowball, which is what everyone talks about with their cash flow.”

Conclusion: A Path to Financial Freedom

Nathan Nicholson's story is a testament to the power of strategic real estate investing. By prioritizing small, affordable properties, maintaining disciplined reinvestment practices, and adapting to market shifts, he has successfully built a substantial passive income stream that affords him financial security and the prospect of an early retirement.

Final Thought:
Nathan Nicholson [29:48]: “Be secure, it’s not a quick game. It takes a long time. But if you're methodical with it and you're smart with it... you will always win. Just don't over leverage.”

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This episode offers invaluable insights into building a passive income portfolio through strategic real estate investments. Nathan's experiences and advice provide a roadmap for investors aiming to achieve financial independence in today's dynamic market.

Transcript

[Dave Meyer]

This investor buys the same $80,000 house over and over again.

[Nathan Nicholson]

He had only $30,000 in the bank in his early 30s, despite a successful career. And at that point, retirement looked like a pipe dream. Then he discovered real estate investing and.

[Dave Meyer]

Started slowly building a better financial future, one affordable property at a time. Now he owns 22 properties. Cash flows almost $100,000 per year and will have the option for a stable retirement well ahead of schedule.

[Nathan Nicholson]

Let's find out exactly how he did it.

[Dave Meyer]

Hey, everyone, I'm Dave Meyer, head of.

[Nathan Nicholson]

Real estate investing at BiggerPockets.

[Dave Meyer]

Today's guest on the podcast is investor.

[Nathan Nicholson]

Nathan Nicholson from Louisville, Kentucky. Nathan didn't buy his first investment property.

[Dave Meyer]

Until he had a realization about needing to take control of his financial future in his early 30s.

[Nathan Nicholson]

But he's since then built an incredibly.

[Dave Meyer]

Impressive portfolio, all at very affordable price points. Today we're going to hear how he was able to embark on a path to financial freedom with only a handful.

[Nathan Nicholson]

Of properties in his first few years of investing.

[Dave Meyer]

Why he recommends being very careful with.

[Nathan Nicholson]

Leverage, even as a loan officer, and.

[Dave Meyer]

Why, unlike a lot of investors, he.

[Nathan Nicholson]

Always wants to buy the smallest possible house for his money. There is a ton of actionable advice in this conversation, especially for investors looking.

[Dave Meyer]

For houses at a price point around $100,000.

[Nathan Nicholson]

So let's get into it. Nathan, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.

Yeah, thank you for having me.

It's a pleasure. Tell us a little bit about yourself. How do you find yourself on this podcast? What do you do in the real estate industry?

Well, in the real estate industry, currently, I'm a growth leader at Success Mortgage Partners. Have had a long career there From Supreme Lending, lower.com and Sierra Pacific. I saw a lot of my friends in the mortgage industry buying real estate, and I just was wondering, how. How are they doing this? And that's kind of what projected me into buying real estate and looking into it a little bit more.

What year were you starting? What was the timeframe for all this?

Yeah, so, I mean, basically, I've been buying real estate for right around 15 years, give or take 14 years, roughly. And so at that point, I was in origination, of course, the market was, you know, very, very interesting to say the least, just like it kind of is now to this day, I mean, ironically. But anyway, with that being the case, obviously, I was looking at different ways to try to afford retirement, try to find ways to make more money down the road. And in all honesty with you, when I looked at my savings account, I think I had $32,000 in it. And when I looked at it and I'm going, I got to be 60 years old to have 60.

Yeah, right.

@ the rate this is going, and looking at my friends telling me over and over again to buy real estate at that point, it kind of signaled that I need to do something a little bit different. A lot of people would tell you never to cash out your 401k, but the reality is I was like, well, I have no money to work with, and I was kind of scared to take hard money, which a lot of people are in the very beginning. And so I looked at my 401k as an option, and I kind of went that route with cashing it out, and I had about 85 to 100 grand in there and just immediately was like, what can I do? How can I buy properties?

So tell us about your first deal. You cashed out your 401k. Did you have, like, a very specific buy box or something you wanted to pursue first?

I got with a property manager my mother knew, and he basically was trying to show me the ropes a little bit, and he said, just go out and buy a deal. It doesn't matter what it is. We'll figure it out. Well, of course, I found a foreclosure, and obviously this was an estate kind of situation where they were losing it, but it was in a state. It's kind of weird scenario. I bought that house for $32,000 cash in Louisville, Kentucky, at the time. And, you know, I thought it was very expensive, and I thought it was really risky. And my property manager. That is still my property manager today after 15 years.

Oh, wow.

He said, this will be the best deal you ever buy in your entire existence. He's not wrong.

Well, it's pretty great. You had 32 grand in your. In your bank account. Like, you said, you were able to buy this property for 32 grand.

So this is around 2013, you know, like somewhere around there. So. But Basically it was $32,000, and I bought a cash. And so it was more for me looking at it from a mentality of playing with it. Right. Like being a cat and a ball of yarn is, let me buy cash. Let me make sure that I don't have any debts. Let me be safe. And so as I went into the house, I realized that $32,000 in my rent of, like, 750amonth or whatever, it was cash flowing really good. And I'm like, man, I really don't want to refinance out of this. So at that point, I decided just to keep that 32k in there. That was my first house, was a free and clear house, and that's really what set the tone. But then after that, I dominoed into three other ones. So I bought four back to back to back to back out of my 401k. I mean, literally, I bought within a period of eight months of each other just to dominate. So that way the cash flow would carry it forward. So that way if someone didn't pay, I would be able to afford that. So.

Wow. Well, I'm sure everyone listening is just salivating at the idea of buying a property. A cash flow, 750 for 32 grand.

Yeah.

So then did you buy similar deals? I assume just trying to do the math of how much cash you had on hand buying four of these deals.

Yes.

You bought some of them with leverage after that?

That's correct, yeah. I had about 50 to 60 thousand dollars left out of my 401k. I fully pulled that out. All 100% of it.

Wow.

I was looking around, semi project areas, stuff like that, Just the outskirts that were getting better. And I really focused on small footprints. I really like you know, 1, 1, 2, 13 ones, 900 square feet, one story on crawl. And so I really focused there. But my second deal was a 203k renovation loan on Wheeler. And that was a house that was $60,000 brick, very nice, and needed full rehab. So I used a 203k loan for that and from there, refinanced out of that, obviously at the end, and then just kept moving into the same similar footprint houses.

All right, so you said you like a small footprint. That's kind of unusual.

Yes.

You know, the traditional wisdom is, you know, get yourself a big house, get a four, two, get a five, three. When I say that, I mean four bedroom, two bath, five bedroom, three bath. Why do you like a small footprint?

Smaller footprints to me just cost less. Right. You could buy them cheaper. Now, they may not rent for as much, but in all honesty, with the price of goods right now, as far as contract work, you know, painting, repairs. So if you do the math, on a small footprint house, say it's a 700 square foot house, say the average, you know, renovation cost is going to be $30 to $40 a square foot. You know, you fully do that. I mean, you're what, $20,000 in on that house? Now think of it this way. If you buy a very large house and it's 1500 square feet, it's got a second story and a basement instead of a crawl. I like crawls or slabs. But if you got three parts of this house that are all 1200 square feet apiece, if you do the math on your square footage there, if a tenant destroys your house and it's 30 to $40 a square foot and you got two levels that you got to do minus the basement, right, you're looking at a major rehab cost there. So even if the rent is $300 more a month, I'm looking at this from a cycle of how cheap can I make it over a long period of time? My cash flow may not be as big, but my costs to repair are going to be much lower. So in the long run I actually make more money how I do it. So there's two different ways to look at it, but that's why I do it.

That makes a lot of sense. And you know, if you have a more complex build structure like you said, if there's a basement or something like that, it might go up from 30 to 40 bucks per square foot. Up to 40 or 50 bucks a square foot. So you're paying a higher rate and more per square foot as well. So that's an interesting approach. We do have to take a quick break, but we'll have more with Nathan right after this. This segment is brought to you by.

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[Nathan Nicholson]

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[Nathan Nicholson]

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[Nathan Nicholson]

Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. I'm here with investor Nathan Nicholson talking about how he's scaled up his successful rental property portfolio. So you bought those first couple of houses because you cashed out your 401k. How are you able to sort of keep on scal after that?

So I mean, really, just looking at my first house, I bought it free and clear. So I was saving that 700 plus dollars a month in a year. That's seven to nine thousand dollars, right? And so as I bought the second, the third and the fourth one and that was all within the same year, I put all my 401k in. It went all in. I was netting about 350 a door at that point. So I was saving probably about 14 to 16 thousand dollars a year off of those houses. And so anyway, what I did is I would just snowball it. So work my W2 job and take that $16,000 in income. And if I found a property that I could afford at that point, I might put ten or twelve grand into it, buy it, keep the four back for reserve, and then buy again. But really my progress is really based on rules of 72, which in all reality is just. The compounding approach here is that I've never used my real estate income for myself. I've always put it back into the business. And, and so, you know, one year I've got $15,000 while I could buy one property, right? One, three years I'm buying a property every eight months. And six years I'm buying a property every six months, right? And so now I'm at year 15ish, and I'm buying three to four properties a year on average. And if I had the opportunity to have better rates in this marketplace, I would actually be able to burn probably four or five, like right before the market kind of got worse. I burned five houses in the same year.

It's brilliant.

[Dave Meyer]

I love it.

[Nathan Nicholson]

I absolutely support, when possible to reinvest as much as you absolutely can, at least early in your career and you don't have to. That's like one of the cool parts about real estate investing is like, for a little while I actually stopped because I decided to go back to grad school and I used some of my, you know, some of my cash flow to just pay down my tuition so I didn't have to take out loans, you know, that kind of thing. But I do think when possible, the more you can reinvest early in your career makes a lot of sense because as Nathan just really articulately explained, that means, yeah, first you're taking a couple of years. Took me four years between my first deal and my second year. Then two years after that, now I'm buying multiple deals a year. You know, it just really escalates. If you could be patient and sort of have the discipline to keep constantly reinvesting.

I just closed on a property this morning, funny enough, waters in Louisville, Kentucky, closing on one on Longfield Avenue, which is a little 2:1. Back to my point, you know, 217 square foot crawl space. I mean, I. I'll speak it as it is. It's true.

Practice what you preach. I like it.

Yeah. So I bought it for you. Know, $87,000 and you know, I paid a little bit over. I mean, again, I would have loved to have had it at 82, but once I, once I updated, I'm going to put about 15 into it. It'll be a 1.3 DSCR after the fact. So a lot of people use the 1% rule. I really look at a DSCR number as my 1% rule. If it's not 1.2 or higher, I will not buy it. So this, this property with the, the increase in rents once I move the tenant out will be at a rough 1.3. And if I raise it an extra 60 bucks, it'll be at a 1.42, which is very, very good.

Tell me a little bit about the CEO. So you're buying another two one. What are the prices now? You bought it for 32k, but what are they today?

Yeah, so I mean, you know, 32K in great moving condition back then compared to 87,000 and needing easily 13 to 15,000 minimum.

Yeah.

To get it rent ready. That, that's really the reality of the situation. You're buying two one houses specifically for my market. Louisville, Kentucky is right around. You see them listed at 120, but they're all dropping to 105. You're getting two ones in semi decent condition for 90 to $110,000 around here.

That's still pretty good. I mean, obviously triple what you paid. So it's a different era, but man, I think in most parts of the country that would be a screaming deal right now. So what does that rent for?

So, yeah, that, that house at this moment. So a lot of houses are in the 1200 range at a 2:1 for a small footprint like that. And usually those are a little bit more updated. But it, you know, if you have it semi updated, you could probably pull 1050-1125, give or take in that range. And if it's actually not really updated at all, you could probably rent it for 995 and get away with it pretty quickly. And I mean these, these properties go very quickly because there's a rental shortage in Louisville, Kentucky right now. It's very hard to find properties to rent.

And tell me a little bit just mentally how you've had to adjust to this new era because I do think we hear a lot of people who maybe started before the pandemic and they're like, oh my God, it used to be so easy to get these deals.

[Dave Meyer]

Or prices are crazy.

[Nathan Nicholson]

And all of it's true. It is true. But I guess my point has always been that you shouldn't let historical performance change your opinion on what the best investment is today. It's like about what you spend with your money now. Like, it kind of doesn't matter what deals we're doing in 2017. If real estate's still the best use of your money, then you should be buying real estate, like, and if it's not, then you should buy some other asset class. So you should be evaluating things that way. But at least for me, it took. It does take some adjustments. So I'm just curious, like, how that's gone for you. Starting in an era of super cheap housing, moving to an era of very expensive housing that we're in right now, how have you had to adjust your strategy but also just your mentality about investing?

So what I've done is I've really focused on over the last 10 years and how things have been changing is how do I get my debt service paid off, right? How do I become more free and clear, how do I get rid of my leverage and how do I use that cash flow in order for me to create, instead of a debt snowball, more of an income snowball, which is what everyone talks about with their cash flow. And so really my focus now is actually buying properties, finding a way to pay them off as quickly as possible through refinancing them and leveraging a little bit. But the other thing is, is that what I found recently for the marketplace is it's very hard to buy even today. Like that deal, I just told you, the $87,000 deal, that $87,000 deal, if you were using hard money, trying to burr it, it would be very hard to cash flow it. You'd probably be in a negative cash flow, in all honesty with you, or losing money. And so what I found and what I've been doing is I've been looking at properties that don't need as much all the time. But I've been having to put more money down, 10% down, 20% down on a purchase. If I'm buying a cash, I may leave 10. If I'm financing it right out the gate, I generally will go in at 20% with lower terms, like a 20 year and stuff like that, to pay it off quicker. And so that's kind of what I've been doing to get around it, is putting more money into it. I think a lot of people would agree with me it's getting a little bit harder now to do that. But what I will say is that if your dollar cost averaging, especially now. I'm still buying. A lot of people are still buying and there's a reason for that because the prices only keep going up and it's going to keep going up. And if you're not dollar cost averaging and you're finding ways to put money into the deals or you're finding ways to burr out of them properly, you're going to be stuck. Because three years from now that $87,000 house is going to be $115,000 for the same house, you know, so you got to buy now.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to talk to you a little bit more about that because you've said a couple of things that I think are really important. One is you said that you're able to get some good deals right now, but long term things absolutely go up. So I want to turn our attention to like how to sort of navigate the situation right now to make sure you're not taking on too much risk, but you are enjoying the upside potential that could be coming over the next couple of years. We do though have to take one more quick break, so we'll be right back.

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[Nathan Nicholson]

Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. I'm here with investor Nathan Nicholson. Before the break, we were talking about how bottom buying now makes a lot of sense because prices keep going up over time. Nathan, you also said, you know, these two ones are, you know, being posted for 115, but you're getting them for 105. Is that because market dynamics are changing or prices falling in Louisville? Like, what's going on there?

The market is stagnating a little bit to a point where you're starting to see a little bit of pullback, which, funny enough, there was an article today about it, talking about how the seller, the seller market is ending and the buyer market is here and it will be here for the next six to eight months. And so I do see that happening in Louisville.

And how do you sort of square that with the idea that you said, you know, prices go up, we're seeing prices stagnate. You said six to eight months is you're just feeling confident because you believe prices will just get back on the normal appreciation train later this year or, you know, sometime in the near future?

That's exactly right. I feel like right now it's just maxed out when rates start dropping, as we both know. I mean, the question mark is the economics in the market currently with tariffs and everything else, the minute the market changes, I think the rates will actually start coming down and you're going to see a lot more opportunity. You're going to see a lot of investors jump back into the market very quickly. I would say that will probably occur within the next six to eight months, obviously, once they get all the world economic issues worked out. But rates drop, it will be a bipartisan for a lot of investors. And I think that dollar cost averaging is really the best way to kind of get through this at this point, especially for the Louisville market.

Anyway, I'm kind of with you. And listen, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty in the economy right now. A rate's going to drop in three months, I don't know, six months, I don't know, a year. The trend is probably down over time. And so, you know, even if there is a longer period of price declines and softness, I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. If you just sort of buy deals that still work today, then all you're going to do is get upside. If and when the market does turn.

Around, as you said, the buyer markets now, and that's kind of what that article said. And in Louisville, that's exactly right. If you go from a 120 house and I basically come in and say, I'll give you 100 for it, and they go 105, I mean, they just drop at a huge percentage almost in one shot to an investor. Right. So you know what's happening. I mean, it's turning and all these houses that are sitting there to your point, you could get deals like that. That's where this $87,000 deal came from. I mean, they had it listed originally for sale by owner. A wholesaler that I knew scooped it up before I did. I mean, it's okay, Kevin, but it's all good. He got it, and I bought it from him this morning. So it all worked out. I know him, he knows me. It all worked out. And the thing is, is that I got it at a good price. That works.

You know, even a year ago, it was hard to negotiate. Properties were still flying off the board, and no one knows how long this will last. And so it's hard to time the market precisely. But if you find good deals that make sense, and if you're buying for, you know, under what you think you could have bought for six months ago and you see the intrinsic value, think it was going to go back up, like it's pretty Good time.

I agree fully.

So catch us up to today, Nathan, how many properties do you have?

Yeah, I mean, currently, as of today with my closing, I'm at 22 properties. I've got 10 paid off for NCLAIR at this point. And the cash flow, I think my rents are about $280,000 a year, and I'm netting with vacancy and repair about 126,000. And True Net is about 98,000 to 100,000 a year, which is, by the way, I write it all off, so that's straight in my pocket.

So awesome. Amazing.

That's why they call this podcast Bigger Pockets, right?

That's right. Yeah, exactly. So all that being said, Nathan, like.

[Dave Meyer]

What'S next for you?

[Nathan Nicholson]

It sounds like you kind of just do the same thing, bread and butter, over and over. Is that the plan going forward?

So I'm in that process of do I buy three to four more houses this year, or do I take the cash that I have and I leverage out that line of credit and I go buy a three or four million dollars property? Right. So that's kind of what I'm looking at now. Or building duplexes. I'm in a mindset of maybe buying land and building spec homes just for cash because the margin on that's really, really good. And. Or building at a duplex or quad, and the margin on that's really good too. So, I mean, I'm looking at a lot of these things, but it really depends on the land that I could buy at the time. Right. Because it all matters with the deal. It's either you get the deal or you don't. And so whatever comes to me first, I'm kind of looking at those avenues.

It's interesting. So you were saying doing development but paying for it in cash and not paying a construction loan.

Correct. That's exactly why I'm leveraging my lines right now. I'm actually. It's something that I've always wanted to do. I've done a lot of burrs, so I'm pretty versed there. I've got some really good contractors, and I know some that are builders. And so in my mind, I know a lot of builders too, because I've been in the real estate and a mortgage game for a long time. I know their margin sets. And so, yeah, the line of credit is a lot better there because obviously not taking out hard money at 13 to 15% right now and paying a point or two on that, I can maybe leverage line at eight, eight and a quarter. That's really helpful over the long term, especially if you're building something out over six months, you know, buying the land, owning it, cash, building out all the sewer and so forth, and then building the spec on top of that. Having a line of credit to do that of your own money or having cash to do that is definitely very helpful, especially now. Yeah.

And I want to, to sort of clarify for people, when Nathan is saying cash, it doesn't mean he has that money in the bank because you're, you have a line of credit, so he's borrowing against assets that he has. For example, if you had a $200,000 paid off property and so you can rent, you know, 75 LTV, you know, you could take out 100, $150,000 and use that to finance the development of a new property. And obviously not everyone could do that, but it's great because if you were to just go get a construction loan that might be 12% and paying 2 points or it could be higher, I don't even know. But so just that level of, you know, doing a little bit of arbitrage here and figuring out that you can develop at a lower cost than someone else might be able to because you have these paid off properties can be really beneficial.

Yeah.

And I think it's interesting, Nathan, because you're a mortgage professional, but it seems like a lot of your strategy has been around low debt, you know, trying to not over leverage yourself and trying to pay off properties quickly. You know, it seems a little counterintuitive because you hear a lot of people wanting to max leverage. So, like, how did you arrive at that strategy?

I've seen a lot of people lose everything they have. Is the best way to put it. In all honesty with you.

I've.

I know four people personally that have done strategies where they over leverage and they've been burned on it.

Yeah.

And so my strategy really came from their experience and them telling me not to do it is the best way to put it. And so I started my career path out exactly on that. As far as my investing pages, is to not over leverage too much. But to your point, now I am looking to over leverage. But that's also because in the tortoise concept, Right. I mean, the tortoise is slow. But again, a lot of people don't realize the shell is what is there to protect you. Right. And so in bad times, if you got good cash flow, that's your shell. And if you pay off your properties, that's your retirement and that's your Cash flow. And the bigger your cash flow is, the bigger your shell is. And so you could leverage out. And so being safe is very smart. So I try to buy these cheaper properties because if you put 20% down on an $87,000 house, you only owe 65 grand on it. That's half my net in a year. I could pay that house off in one single year. And it gets me to that point a lot quicker. And so anyway, that's, that's definitely a format that I still will continue to use. I think paying off debt is very smart because it creates that shell. It allows you to have a larger income snowball to be able to leverage if you need it in good or bad times to buy or to, to try to play defense. And so it's. It's a really good strategy, I think.

Awesome. Well, I think that's really wise advice. You know, I. People listen to the show. I'm all for the tortoise approach. I think this is what real estate is all about. It is a get rich slowly kind of scheme. And it's not really that slow. When people say that, it's like 10 or 15 years, you're going to be doing great. And just trying to make wise, low risk, high upside decisions is just the name of the game. And there are times where you want to leverage. Like to be honest, in 2015, 2016, or even 2020, when rates were so low, it was a good time to leverage. Now, to my opinion, not as good time to leverage. So you need to just adapt. There's no one size fits all thing where it's like you should always be putting the least amount down so you can buy more properties. I don't know if that makes that much sense these days. So, Nathan, thank you for sharing some of those insights with us. Any last thoughts or advice for our audience here before we get out of here?

It's really smart to be secure, you know, it's not a quick game. People think it is not. First thing we will tell you as an investor that is experienced and I'm at about 15 just like you, is that it is not easy. It takes a long time. Yep. But if you're methodical with it and you're smart with it and you listen to bigger pockets, you listen to these stories, you listen to other people's pros and cons that they've had, their experiences, take all of that information and try to figure out where you are economically as far as your family, your income, your savings, where you want to be, your wants, needs and aspirations and leverage. An approach that works for you. And if you can do that and do it methodically, you will always win. Just don't over leverage. Don't over leverage. Don't over leverage. I can always say over and over and over again. Be smart. You can leverage. Just don't over leverage.

Well, that's a great way to get out of here. Nathan, thank you so much for joining us today. It was a good time.

Yes, definitely a pleasure. Thank you again for having me. It's always a privilege and a pleasure to be on the top real estate podcast in the world, in my opinion. So thank you so much for allowing me to do this. I appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you. And thank you all so much for listening. Before we get out of here, I just want to remind everyone to make sure to follow the Bigger Pockets Real Estate Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Or make sure to subscribe on YouTube as well. We have a lot of great content going up there and if you think other investors could learn from your story and you want a chance to appear on the BiggerPockets podcast like Nathan, make sure to go to biggerpockets.com guest and apply to be on the show. Thanks again so much for listening. We'll see you next time.

[Dave Meyer]

Thank you all for listening to the Biggerpockets Real Estate Podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer the Show the show is produced by Ian K. Copywriting is by Calico, Content and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.biggerpockets.com. the content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk, so use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose and remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. BiggerPockets, LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.