Dave Meyer (1:22)

Joe, welcome to the Bigger Pockets podcast. Thanks for being here.

Joe Hamill (1:26)

Thanks, Dave. It's great to meet you.

Dave Meyer (1:28)

Yeah, super excited to have you on and hear a little bit about your story. So give us your background. Where are you from and how do you find yourself getting into real estate investing?

Joe Hamill (1:37)

Well, I'm originally from Ohio. I now live and invest in the metro Detroit market and I signed my first lease. It would have been about five years ago exactly to today, it would have been on October 1, 2020. Since then, my wife and I, we have bought 24 properties. It's 31 doors and we're cash flowing. It's. It's 115,000 a year after budgeting for vacancy maintenance at Capex.

Dave Meyer (2:08)

Sounds like an incredible portfolio to do in five years. And you've also done that across two really different markets starting in 2020. Fast forward to today. Totally different landscape that we're in. So I'd love to just break down how you've done this, but would first just want to understand sort of your goals and motivation for being an investor in the first place.

Joe Hamill (2:27)

I was working in a factory, I was in manufacturing. And I quickly realized that's not what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. So when I was kind of searching Trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I was talking to my buddy Jake Graff and he's like, hey man, you need to listen to bigger pockets. And so for, for many of us who have done that, it flips your world 180. He was house hacking at the time, so he explained that to me. And so I went down the rabbit hole of multiple podcasts a day, watched all the YouTube videos, I read all the books, I was in the forums. And so that's when it really triggered like this is what I'm going to do. Either full time side hustle, I'm going to figure this out.

Dave Meyer (3:10)

Oh, absolutely. Love hearing that. That Biggerpockets has helped you hone your vision and figure out how to get estate. What is it about real estate that's resonated with you that previous careers in manufacturing wasn't doing for you?

Joe Hamill (3:24)

It's the common man's path to wealth.

Dave Meyer (3:27)

Right.

Joe Hamill (3:28)

It's just the greatest investment when you look at how much money you can make in cash flow and then appreciation, loan pay down and your tax benefits, it's just you can't compete with it as an investment vehicle. So it's just dump all my money into it is the best place for it to be.

Dave Meyer (3:46)

I love that approach. I've never heard it described specifically that way, but it makes so much sense to me. Actually what makes real estate so interesting that I love is you don't have to like invent anything. You know, it's a path to entrepreneurship where you're not having to come up with some new genius business model. Yeah, this is just a repeatable formula that pretty much anyone can follow, which is super cool. So how did you go about financing, finding your first deal and what kind of deals were you looking for off the bat?

Joe Hamill (4:16)

Yeah, so I had done two deals in Ohio where I bought land, I bought a house, and I sold those when I moved to Michigan. And so that was where I initially had some capital. I made like 40k, 20k on each of those. And then by working, I came to Michigan. I had like 50, 60 grand. And so my first property, I was really looking for a house hack. Right. I was, I was doing, I was trying to do what I was supposed to do, but coming to Michigan, that was a bit overwhelming. I didn't know how to recognize what a good house hack was. So I ended up going with a safe bet, which was I just picked a single family home and it backed up to a nice neighborhood. It was on a busy street, but I got it for $103,000. I was going to live there for a while and I knew eventually my wife and I, we'd get married and we'd buy another house and that'd be my first rental property. And so that ended up being the first property. I bought it for 103. I put 15k into it. It's worth like 190 today. And I thought it was going to rent for like 1300amonth, but I ended up signing a two year lease at 1600amonth. And so it's cash flow. 6$700 a month for five years straight at this point.

Dave Meyer (5:29)

That's incredible. Well, it sounds like you did pretty well figuring out where to buy the first one. And you know, this podcast has a long history with Detroit. I don't know if you know this, but like Josh and Brandon, when they first started, Josh loved to hate on Detroit. Yeah, but I, I've heard that it's one of those markets where if you know the market well, you can do really well. But it's not for people who are maybe out of state or haven't spent the time researching it. Do you think that's true?

Joe Hamill (5:57)

I mean, I, I say this in good fun. Um, there's two types of people who dog on Detroit and it's people who have never bought a property there and people who did it wrong.

Dave Meyer (6:06)

Yeah. Okay, that's fair.

Joe Hamill (6:07)

Because if you do it right, you can really make a lot of money. And we've really identified what doing it right looks like. We call them bread and butter deals. And if you buy those, they're just a great balance of price, rent, roi, location, and we see a lot of success with them.

Dave Meyer (6:26)

That's great. So what are those bread and butter deals? Is it similar to what you bought on that first one?

Joe Hamill (6:31)

These properties, there's your suburbs, bread and butter, and then there's your Detroit, bread and butter. Suburbs are going to be a little higher price, a little lower ROI and a little easier experience. And that's the difference between suburbs versus Detroit. And so to break it down as concisely as possible, it's going to be an 80k to $130,000 house. They're going to rent for 1100-1500amonth. They're 1 to 1.4% rule deals, cash on cash, 6 to 12% cash flow, 50, $300 a month. They're good appreciation. We grade properties A to F and so these are what we call C+B minus.

Dave Meyer (7:09)

So what is your definition of a C? Describe the neighborhood for us.

Joe Hamill (7:13)

Well, yeah, so in my, my portfolio is a great example, right. I have 30 plus doors and in five years I've had two evictions and I've had maybe five or six tenants stop paying and I've had to send them a notice to quit and get rid of them. Somebody stole a trash can once and somebody kicked in a garage door or the only two crime that I've dealt with.

Dave Meyer (7:33)

And yeah, way more than that. Yeah, right.

Joe Hamill (7:36)

And then vacancy is another one that people will look at. I have very little vacancy. I have one unit vacant right now just because the tenant moved out a week ago. So that's, that's what I'm calling a C plus, B minus market.

Dave Meyer (7:48)

And what condition are the properties in?

Joe Hamill (7:50)

So I do a lot of light to medium sweat equity and probably favoring the medium sweat equity. So I'm doing the cosmetic plus type rehabs now. Again, you can find the turnkey at the higher price range of the bread and butter. I'm staying lower price range with more sweat equity.

Dave Meyer (8:10)

And what does that deal look like? So you said you're, you know, you're buying it for what, 80, 100 grand and putting how much into it?

Joe Hamill (8:16)

In 2023, my average single family home was, purchase price was $80,000 and my average rehab was probably 15, maybe touching 20k rehab.

Dave Meyer (8:27)

I'm asking these questions about the specifics because these seem like very approachable kinds of deals, right? If, even if you're putting 25% down with traditional financing on an $80,000 property, it's 20 grand down. You know, with a reno of 15, 20k, you need closing costs, you need reserves, you know, $50,000, obviously a lot of money, but more palatable to a lot of people who maybe don't want to go the house hack Strategy and put 3 1/2% down or live in a super expensive market. This just seems quite achievable for people who are thinking about or comfortable with out of state investing. Presuming you don't live in Detroit. You know, the question I think you hear about Detroit that I just curious your opinion on, Joe, is like, what about the appreciation? Because it seems like cash flow is pretty solid. You know, post Covid, we're going into sort of a flatter market. Where do you think appreciation goes from here?

Joe Hamill (9:21)

You know, I'm sure you've looked at the data, but recently we've done really well, especially in the post Covid era. I mean, we're in the top 2023, we're number one at least by some sources.

Dave Meyer (9:32)

Yeah.

Joe Hamill (9:33)

And ever since we're still 6, 7% even just 2024 to 2025, which most markets, they can't say that. And I think it comes down to, to, to one major thing. I think it's affordability. I think the other markets that are struggling, it's because of affordability. And the reason why Detroit isn't is because we still are a low enough price point that we have room to grow.

Dave Meyer (9:56)

I agree. It's kind of been. My whole thesis is just that these markets that are affordable people are going to still keep transacting, whereas other markets I invest in, it's just unaffordable. And you see the market coming down like there are obviously still people doing stuff, but the number of transactions is just really low. And we've just reached the point where we can't stretch affordability. People are not able to pay and maybe when things get a little bit cheaper, they'll jump back in. But these markets, Milwaukee, obviously Detroit, Cleveland, a lot of the Midwest, this is where things are happening because it's where people who live there and work there and have normal jobs are still able to participate in the housing market. That's a healthy housing market, I think bodes well for those types of markets in the future. So this is fascinating. Love hearing the specificity of the kinds of deals that you're buying here. I'd love to hear a little bit about your story though, how you've evolved your own portfolio. Let's get into that right after this quick break.

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Dave Meyer (13:18)

Here with investor Joe Hamill, who's been growing his portfolio in Detroit for the last five years.

Co-host (possibly Brandon or Josh from BiggerPockets) (13:23)

We heard a little bit about your.

Dave Meyer (13:25)

First deal where you bought a house hack. How did you grow your personal portfolio from there?

Joe Hamill (13:31)

Joe I bought that first one rented out in 2020 and then in 2021 we bought I think it was five deals and the funding for that came from that original 50 60k that I moved to Michigan with and I also 2021 I was able to pull out my 401k penalty free using the COVID whatever that was. So that was more funding. I did a couple of the soft burrs. You've been calling them slow burr. We call them a soft bur, whatever.

Dave Meyer (14:04)

You want to call it. Yeah, let's use slow Burr. We got to, we got to standardize. Softer is what it is.

Joe Hamill (14:10)

I agree it's a better name than softer. So was able to pull some out there. And then my wife, she had a good income and we both determined, hey, let's live 100% off of your income. And then everything that I make through my job and as an investor, we're going to reinvest all that cash flow. So that was the funding. Every time I hit a certain threshold of money, I would go look at the market and I'd pick out a deal and execute.

Dave Meyer (14:36)

So you would, you know, have one going, you would do the renovation, rent it out, get rents up to market rate, and then you would refi. So you would basically take some or all of that money, combine it with your income to finance the next one.

Joe Hamill (14:48)

Exactly. And most of the time it was some of the money. I did hit one perfect burr.

Dave Meyer (14:53)

Wow, that's awesome. Wow. I'm asking that because I, you know, if you listen to the show, you've heard me talking about the slow burr and I like this because it's more realistic and it's just a little less pressure in today's day and age. And just want to reiterate that doing the quote unquote perfect burr where you can refinance 100% of your cash is just pretty rare these days. I'm sure it still happens, but it is pretty rare. And I really just think in the new realities that we're facing, having appropriate expectations is super important and not expecting to achieve returns that just don't exist anymore. That doesn't mean they're not still life changing events that are going to help you move towards your financial goals. It just means it's. We're not in this free money period where everything was perfect. So I just wanted to make sure people understand that the brrrr still really works. These perfect brrrrs were just there at a certain time and place and is not what what we should all be expecting. So, you know, you keep doing these same deals for five or six years. How have you avoided this shiny object syndrome that I certainly get in real estate? I think a lot of people do where you want to try everything. I want to do short term rental, you want to flip, you want to do creative finance, you want to do everything. How have you and why have you just stuck to the same approach?

Joe Hamill (16:10)

I think you said it in terms of haven't you had shiny object syndrome? I think it's because I was aware of not having it right. That was a very conscious decision I made early on was don't do that. Get good at something and get bored with it. Whether it's your job or investing. And I had something. I hit success on my first 1, 2, 3 deals. And so I was just clear the slate and repeat the same thing 20 times.

Dave Meyer (16:34)

That's awesome. It seems like even though the market has been hot, finding deals hasn't been hard.

Joe Hamill (16:42)

No. I would say in 2024 was kind of a shift in my strategy that was an extreme seller's market. Interest rates were higher then than they are today. So I really went from an average price in 2023 of 80k to an average price of 125k in 2024. I'm still getting 6 to 9% cash on cash ROI. But I really made those changes for a couple reasons. The one was the market adjustment.

Dave Meyer (17:12)

Right.

Joe Hamill (17:13)

It just, I had to. The $80,000 house was now $100,000 house. To get the same profile of property, I had to go up in price. So that decision was kind of made for me. And then the second reason why I really went from 100 to 125 was my personal strategy change. I already had 15, 16 and 17 bread and butter. Really good cash flow. They were two one, three one sided houses. Maybe a little bit of character. And so now I was like, okay, let's get, let's, let's go up a notch. And I was looking for brick. I wanted a basement and a garage. I didn't want any character. And so that just took me up then to the 125 price point. So all four of my deals in 2024 looked exactly the same with that 125 price point.

Dave Meyer (17:59)

Okay. And is that kind of. I mean, I assume it's gone up a little bit. But those kind of deals are still available to you?

Joe Hamill (18:05)

Yeah, I mean like I said, shoot fish in a barrel. I could probably pick a couple out right now.

Dave Meyer (18:11)

Pretty incredible. So let's talk a little bit about specifically what to look for because obviously not everyone is going to invest in Detroit. But I think this model that you've created is somewhat repeatable in a lot of markets. Obviously, you know, if you're living on the coasts, it's probably pretty expensive. But if you're investing somewhere in the Southeast or in the Midwest, there's a lot of these kinds of deals. So let's just talk characteristics, not just price point. Like are there certain bedroom counts you're looking for and how do you try and identify that sweet spot of value add? I think that's a big question for a lot of people. Like what one person calls a cosmetic renovation could be totally different from what another person calls a cosmetic renovation. So what are the kind of properties and upgrades that you're trying to target?

Joe Hamill (19:02)

So a lot of these are two ones and three ones. Right. Which a lot of people, they really want the 3 2, but I think the ROI is higher on the 213 1, because less people want them. Your price to entry is lower.

Dave Meyer (19:17)

So you're doing these two one, three ones, which makes sense to me. Are you doing kitchens, bathrooms, floors? Like, what are. What's the scope of the renovation you're trying to do?

Joe Hamill (19:27)

The lighter ones are painting and fixtures. So you go in and you paint and you do new light fixtures, new knobs, new faucets, and the whole house looks great. Yeah, that's your light version versus your medium one is like, okay, we're going to replace all the toilets, all the fixtures we're painting, we're refinishing the floors. We got to do all of our landscaping outside, maybe replace the furnace. Something like that is what I consider medium versus large is you're doing a gut job, and I think that's when your risk goes through the roof, when you take on those big ones.

Dave Meyer (19:59)

Yeah, literally it goes into your roof a lot of the time.

Joe Hamill (20:02)

Yeah, doing that.

Dave Meyer (20:03)

But yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And is that sort of what you recommend for newer investors is taking on, like, that kind of fixtures, paint kind of thing first?

Joe Hamill (20:14)

Yeah, definitely. It's. It's why I'm really cheering on your slow burr messaging right now, because it's just so much more realistic to hit the lighter sweat equity and get your feet wet on those, you know, and if you want to go more aggressive after that, do it, you know? But to start out, just take on the lighter stuff. But I do like taking on some sweat equity because that's how you're going to force ROI in a property.

Dave Meyer (20:37)

If I had my druthers, I would pay a little bit more and buy a stabilized turnkey property that had solid cash on cash return. Not amazing. And those still exist sometimes in some places. But the juice is just better on a light cosmetic rehab right now. Like, you will get better cash flow and you're going to build equity. And I think that's the real importance thing. People look at brrrr and they say, oh, I can build equity. That is definitely true. But a lot of times that's how you have to generate cash flow too. Because if you look at a property with the rents that it can command in its existing condition, you're probably not hitting that 6 to 9% cash on cash return. Like I I don't see it anywhere. You could maybe get 3 or 4%, which is okay for some people. That's fine if you just really want to do nothing. But if you're trying to hold on to something for a long time, that's why the slow burr works, because you can do it sort of at a slower pace, but then you get the equity. But you juice up those rents and provide a really high quality experience for your tenants that they're going to want to stay, that they're willing to pay for, and that just sets you up for a more successful long term hold period, in my opinion.

Joe Hamill (21:48)

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Dave Meyer (21:50)

We got to take a quick break.

Co-host (possibly Brandon or Josh from BiggerPockets) (21:51)

But stick with us.

Dave Meyer (21:52)

We'll be right back.

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Dave Meyer (25:19)

Let's get back into our conversation. So tell me a little bit about managing these renovations because you're an agent as well. Are most of the people you're working with local or out of state?

Joe Hamill (25:31)

The majority is out of state. It's like 65% out of state versus 40 45% local.

Dave Meyer (25:38)

And how do you coach and get people comfortable with the idea of doing renovations from out of state?

Joe Hamill (25:46)

So something started building from the very beginning was our resource list. And it's at this point it's 200 plus names and phone numbers of CPAs attorneys, contractors, electricians. And so this is, that's really been a huge ticket to, hey, you can build your core four with this resource list. And I think that's broken down a lot of barriers. Finding a contractor is one of the hardest parts for me at the beginning, of course. So I ended up getting my builder's license and starting a small handyman slash general contracting company just to help myself do a lot of these rehabs. And obviously clients can use them as well.

Dave Meyer (26:28)

So what do out of state investors do? They find a contractor on your list and then they manage the whole thing themselves or like how are they developing a scope of work and overseeing the project while they're out of state?

Joe Hamill (26:42)

So we do a lot of boots on the ground for out of state clients. So we'll take a really good walkthrough video most of the time before purchase and that's how they're closing these properties. And so then after they close they have that video and they can either hire a GC to just do the whole thing or if they want, they can pick off, you know, one person at a time, hire my painter, my floor person and just do what needs to be done.

Dave Meyer (27:06)

Yeah, as an out of state investor that is tough, is tough to run subs yourself out of state. I think it's easier to just do it with a GC or the way I've, I've done it. I don't know what you recommend but like the way I've done is my property manager has a lot of subs and sometimes I will have them run the subs through and help me work on the scope of work. Do you see people do that as well?

Joe Hamill (27:29)

Yeah, I'd agree. The GC is the more popular route. And then as well as having the property manager gc, it's if especially for the out of state, that's typically what they're going to favor.

Dave Meyer (27:38)

And then do you see most out of state investors before they purchase with you, do they come and Visit?

Co-host (possibly Brandon or Josh from BiggerPockets) (27:43)

It's like 50, 50.

Joe Hamill (27:45)

We have a lot of them that will close without ever seeing it. And then some of them will want to fly in for closing.

Dave Meyer (27:51)

But did they ever even come to Detroit and like get to know the market at all even if they buy the property site unseen?

Joe Hamill (27:57)

Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes they'll want to come in and just confirm that they want to buy here. And then we'll usually set up some sort of tour from on that week and they come in, we'll go see 10 houses and go from there.

Dave Meyer (28:08)

That's my favorite thing to do. I love going to markets and touring around. It's the best. I really recommend people do that. If you're an out of state investor. I've closed on properties site unseen. But going to the market and just getting a lay of the land, you know generally where these properties are going to be. You like this area, you don't like that area. It's worth it. It really is worth a thousand dollars or whatever you're going to spend. I know that seems like money you could be putting towards a property and you can, but it's just money that you need to spend to invest into your business for the longevity of it. I just know myself, I sleep easier at night investing out of state knowing that I've been there. And I have a general sense of like, I really like this neighbor. I trust this neighborhood. That's like a good place. Recommend that people take that approach as well. So Joe, tell me you've succeeded and had this pretty incredible portfolio that you've built up over the last couple of years. What comes next for you? What are your goals now?

Joe Hamill (29:03)

It's a good question because obviously I hit some numbers that were my lifetime goal. So it's kind of surreal at 31 that could be done. But my wife and I talk and we both believe in God's purpose for our life and he let us know that we're not allowed to go sit on a beach. So we're gonna, we're, we're brainstorming some philanthropic ideas. We're gonna keep investing.

Dave Meyer (29:26)

Oh, that's great.

Joe Hamill (29:27)

Keep investing and keep growing. Work on a couple side projects with a fintech group and hopefully have some cool things for investors at some point there. But yeah, we're just gonna keep going and try to make the world a better place.

Dave Meyer (29:38)

Oh, that's awesome. I love to hear that. And I think that's one of the under discussed parts of real estate investing. That's so cool because I'm, I'm, I'm on board with you. Like I'm not someone who could sit on a beach and not work. But it's so cool how real estate investing, when you reach a level of financial independence, just allows you to take on projects that are philanthropic or just have personal importance or meaning to you or, you know, it's, you know, people often say they want to spend more time with their family, which is a common one, which is great. But like if you have other professional interests or philanthropic interests, it allows you to take that on as well, which is super cool. So highly respect that that's how you're thinking about spending your time. Joe, thanks. Well Joe, thank you so much for being here today. It's been great meeting you, hearing your story. Congratulations on all the success. Make sure to keep us posted on your next steps. Awesome.

Joe Hamill (30:29)

Thanks a lot Dave.

Dave Meyer (30:30)

And thank you all so much for listening to this episode of the Bigger Pockets. We appreciate you listening. We'll see you next time for another episode in just a couple of days.

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Dave Meyer (31:37)

Limu is that guy with the banana binoculars watching us.

Co-host (possibly Brandon or Josh from BiggerPockets) (31:40)

Cut the camera, they see us.

Ad Voice/Announcer (31:42)

Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.

Co-host (possibly Brandon or Josh from BiggerPockets) (31:44)

Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company Affiliates.

Joe Hamill (31:49)

Excludes Massachusetts.