Morgan Housel: The Investing Expert’s “System” for Stress-Free Wealth

Summary

Podcast Summary: BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast

Episode: Morgan Housel: The Investing Expert’s “System” for Stress-Free Wealth

Date: June 17, 2026
Host: Dave Meyer
Guest: Morgan Housel

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Overview

In this episode, Dave Meyer sits down with bestselling author and financial thinker Morgan Housel ("The Psychology of Money") to deconstruct Morgan’s core system for building wealth with minimal stress and burnout. Eschewing complex strategies or risky speculation, Morgan outlines a simple, repeatable behavioral “system” that anyone can apply to achieve financial independence. The episode explores the psychology behind money, the power of setting systems over goals, the dangers of over-optimization and hustle culture, and Morgan’s blunt take on FIRE and the housing crisis. It’s an insightful session weaving practical financial habits with deep mindset shifts on investing, personal fulfillment, and societal trends in real estate.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins & Behavioral Approach to Money

[01:52–04:10]

• Morgan entered finance during the 2008 crash, unexpectedly becoming a financial writer for the Motley Fool.
• His desire to understand the crash led him to realize that “psychology, sociology, political science, biology—NOT finance textbooks—explain people’s financial decisions.”
• “If you want to understand why people keep up with the Joneses and bury themselves in mortgage debt, don’t read a finance textbook, read a sociology textbook.” (Morgan, [03:42])

2. Money Mindsets and Individuality

[04:46–06:33]

• There’s no universal right way to manage money: “It’s closer to your taste in food—what works for you may not work for someone else.”
• The danger is following financial plans devised for others, not yourself.

3. Learning the Basics & The Health Analogy

[07:11–08:54]

• Basic financial literacy (budgeting, compound interest) is “an obligation,” like learning to take care of your health.
• “If someone says ‘I’m not interested in finance’…well, finance is interested in you. If someone says ‘I’m just not interested in health’—well, you’re going to have a hard life.” (Morgan, [07:51])

4. System Over Goal: Creating Habits for the Long Term

[09:24–10:48], [15:36–16:46]

• Focus on systems (e.g., “save $200 per month”) rather than distant, abstract goals (“$2 million by 65”).
• “If you can turn a long-term goal into a short-term system … it’s easier to wrap your head around and maintain consistency.” (Morgan, [09:42])
• Daily habits and routines trump obsessing over far-off targets.

5. The Limits of Optimization & The “Good Enough” Principle

[17:27–18:49]

• Over-optimizing with data can drive people crazy in both finance and health.
• “If you just have a good enough savings philosophy and spending philosophy … that’s good enough. Could I do better? Maybe. But I’m not going to become neurotic optimizing around the edges.” (Morgan, [17:42])
• Track the big picture, not every decimal point.

6. The Goal: Not Thinking About Money

[18:49–19:16]

• “If you’re wealthy and you’re thinking about your money all the time, you’re kind of missing the whole point.” (Dave, [18:49])
• The aim is freedom from financial anxiety.

7. Patience & Dollar-Cost Averaging

[21:33–22:33]

• “The best skill of an investor is just patience...if you can zoom out for 10, 15, 30 years, it’s fine.” (Dave, [21:33])
• Dollar-cost averaging into index funds—or real estate—is both simple and effective for most.

8. Effort-Adjusted & Stress-Adjusted Returns

[23:24–24:46]

• “People in finance talk about risk-adjusted returns. I think we need to talk about effort-adjusted and stress-adjusted returns.” (Morgan, [23:24])
• Is a half-percent more worth sacrificing family time and well-being? For most, the answer is no.

9. The Danger of Hustle Culture & Vanity Metrics

[31:13–33:00]

• Hustle culture is “99.9% performative.”
• Equating hours worked or units owned with success is meaningless: “If you work 100 hours a week, sounds like you’re very inefficient at what you do…not the flex you think it is.” (Morgan, [31:50])
• Tracking truly meaningful metrics (like quality of life, efficiency) is more important than chasing “door count.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“Finance is not physics. It’s not math. It’s psychology. It’s more like your taste in food.”
Morgan Housel ([05:38])

“The point of money is to enjoy it incrementally while you still can. Not waiting until you’re 65 years old.”
Dave Meyer ([16:46])

“Patience is the best skill an investor can have. Over time, everything works—zoom out!”
Dave Meyer ([21:33])

“I want to use money to give myself and my family the most effort-adjusted quality of life that we can have.”
Morgan Housel ([23:38])

“Retire early? Way more complicated... If you think work is hard, try boredom. It’s way harder.”
Morgan Housel on FIRE ([27:03])

“Nobody is thinking about me as much as I am... We massively overestimate how much attention we get for our stuff.”
Morgan Housel ([41:09])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 01:52–03:51: Morgan’s start in finance & the behavioral view on money
• 04:46–06:48: Individuality of finance plans and the false comfort of strictly mathematical approaches
• 07:11–08:54: Why financial literacy is as fundamental as health
• 09:24–10:48: Setting up systems for long-term outcomes
• 15:36–16:46: System vs. goals in personal finance routines
• 17:27–19:16: The perils of over-tracking and how “good enough” is best
• 23:24–24:46: Effort-adjusted returns and avoiding stress for slightly higher yield
• 27:03–28:53: Morgan’s nuanced take on the FIRE movement
• 31:24–33:00: The hustle culture fallacy and the importance of meaningful metrics
• 41:09–42:30: The role of status, contentment, and what really matters
• 44:45–48:44: Deep dive on housing affordability, societal impacts, and why we must build more homes

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Deep Dive: Real Estate & Housing Policy

Housing Affordability as a Root Problem

[44:45–48:44]

• “So many societal problems are downstream of housing affordability: people marry less, have fewer kids, mental health suffers.” (Morgan, [45:11])
• Lack of supply (due to regulatory blocks) is the primary issue, not material shortages.
• Real estate investing remains viable even with more affordability: “This business worked in times of no appreciation—you still get cash flow and amortization.”

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Final Thoughts

Morgan Housel’s wisdom in this episode centers on personalization, psychology over perfection, and the true purpose of financial freedom: enjoying your life, not chasing someone else’s idea of wealth. Whether you’re a seasoned investor or a beginner, the key is to choose systems and investments that align with your values, put effort and stress in perspective, and avoid the social-media-driven race for more at all costs.

Recommended Reading & Resources

• Morgan’s books: The Psychology of Money, Same as Ever, The Art of Spending Money
• For more: Morgan’s Substack

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Transcript

[Dave Meyer]

Morgan Housel, the best selling author of the Psychology of Money. Same as ever. And the Art of Spending money didn't get wealthy by chasing huge investments, making genius stock picks, or building a 100 unit rental portfolio. Instead, he used a simple system for building wealth that's not only easy, but repeatable by everyone hearing this right now. It allowed him to reach financial freedom with less stress and more free time without the burnout. In fact, Morgan even says that working more could be counterproductive to what you're actually trying to achieve. Today on the show, we're getting access to this system which you can directly apply to your own investments in real estate or any other asset class. Plus, Morgan shares a strong opinion at the end that every real estate investor needs to hear. What's up, everyone?

[Morgan Housel]

Hey, everyone.

[Dave Meyer]

I'm Dave Meyer, Chief investment officer at BiggerPockets. Today's guest on the show is a special one. It's bestselling author Morgan Housel. I am personally a huge fan of his books. Reading the Psychology of Money absolutely changed how I think about building wealth. So I am super excited to share this conversation with Morgan with all of you. Let's bring him on. Morgan, welcome to the BiggerPockets podcast. Thanks for being here.

[Morgan Housel]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah, I'm excited for you to be here. I'm very excited that you're going to be joining us at bpcon this year as our keynote speaker. Because honestly, I've learned a lot from you and I think you have so much value to add to the BiggerPockets community. Maybe you could start by just telling us a little bit about yourself. You've become one of the most preeminent thought leaders in the financial investing space. Like what drew you to this space in the first place?

[Morgan Housel]

No, it was. It was very much an accident. It was never part of the plan. It was never part of a plan to become a writer. And even once I was a writer, it was never part of the plan to write about the topic that I do now. I graduated college in 2008 and I wanted to be an investment banker or a hedge fund manager. That was the plan. Obviously. 2008 was like a nuclear explosion in financial world. Not a good time to be looking for a banking job. And then so, out of desperation and nothing more than that, I stumbled haphazardly into a job as a writer for the Motley Fool. And I did not want to do it. I was not excited about doing it. I was not proud of becoming a writer at the time. It was not where I saw my career going, but frankly, like, I had rent to pay. I needed to do something. And in 2008, that was the. The only finance job that I could wrap my hands around and that I could.

[Unidentified Speaker]

That.

[Morgan Housel]

That I had. And so I became a writer in 2008, which obviously was a very interesting time in the world. When I started as a Motley fool writer, I. I was assigned the banking sector to cover. And I. I forget the exact numbers, but it was something like, at the beginning of 2008, I had, like, 16 banks to cover, and by the end of 2008, only, like, seven of them were still alive and still around. And so I spent those first couple years, let's call it 2008 through 2012, let's say, trying to answer the question, like, what the heck happened in 2008? It seemed like such a very important question to answer, and B, it should have been an easy question to answer. And as the years went on, it was like, oh, it's not easy at all. And the reason it wasn't easy is because there was nothing in a finance textbook or in an economics textbook that would explain why 2008 happened. Like, just wasn't really there. But as I started, like, peeling it back and reading other people and figuring out, it was like, oh, there's nothing in an economics textbook that'll explain it. But psychology explains it, sociology explains it, political science explains it, biology explains it. Like, evolution explains. There's all these fields that had nothing to do with investing or money. They were like, oh, like, if you want to understand why people keep up with the Joneses and bury themselves in mortgage debt, don't read a finance textbook, read a sociology textbook. It talks all about it. Like, it's all right there.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah.

[Morgan Housel]

And so that, to me, was just like, oh, if I want to understand markets and finance and money, I need to think about this not through a finance lens, but through a behavioral, psychological lens. And look, that was not that unique back then, and it's definitely not unique now, but that's where this all started coming from.

[Dave Meyer]

Well, you're very effective at it. I've recommended your first book, Psychology of Money, to many people because it just does such a good job of putting into really simple, relatable terms some of the fallacies that we all have about money. And it makes you really think about our culture and how we've sort of pushed people in the wrong direction. How they think about money is not always optimal for their happiness and for their lives. What are some of the biggest things you've discovered people do wrong or some misconceptions they have about money.

[Morgan Housel]

One, I've always felt like I wrote for an audience of one, which was me. And all of this time, for the last almost 20 years now, I've just been trying to figure out my own problems in my own psychology and trying to make, make sense of the world. And one of the like defining moments, I would say of my career was a moment, most of this was probably 10 years ago, around 2016, about where I had a group of friends, most of whom were financial professionals ranging from financial advisors to portfolio managers, headphone managers, and how much crap they gave me about some of my financial quirks. Why are you doing it this way? Why aren't you spending more on this? Why do you spend so much more on that? Why do you invest like that? Why do you have so much cash? Why, why, why are you doing it like that? And it was interesting to me that they could not understand, like there was not room in their brain for them to understand that maybe I'm doing it this way because that's what works for me. And maybe you're not doing it that way because your way works for you.

[Dave Meyer]

Right?

[Morgan Housel]

And it wouldn't work for me. Like. So I think, to answer your question, one of the biggest fallacies is that, you know, most of the last hundred years in finance, we have treated it like it's physics. And those are like the people who win the Nobel Prize in economics mostly do it for like Greek formulas that are very math heavy. We've treated it like a math based field. And I think it's something closer to like your taste in food of just like you like this. I like that. Okay, good for you. Move on. Like, and, and so I. A lot of damage is done in finance when people follow a financial plan that is right for somebody else but wrong for you. And it's very easy to fall for that because it is right for somebody else. It's good advice for somebody else, but it's disastrous for you. And so that's, I think that's the biggest by far is that there is no one right way to manage your money. And you have to think of this through a very individualist lens and figure out what works for you.

[Dave Meyer]

I appreciate that and fully agree with it, but it can be a little bit intimidating too. I think a lot of people who maybe are new to investing or personal finance sometimes just want to be told what to do, at least in my experience. When I was first starting, I was like, just Tell me exactly where to put my money, what stock to buy, which for our audience, where should I go out and buy my next rental property and managing it yourself and sort of forming your own path, I do believe is the right thing to do. But without some background or knowledge of the basics of finance, that could be hard to do. Right.

[Morgan Housel]

You're absolutely right. That of course some background, some technical background of understanding budgeting and how compound interest works and the basic mechanics of the stock market and you know, earnings per share and dividends. That baseline knowledge, of course is very important and it should be taught in schools where by and large it is not. But I would say, I think an appropriate analogy is this. If I said everybody in order to become healthy needs to be able to deadlift £250, that advice might be very good. If you're a, if you're a 19 year old boy, if you're an 87 year old grandmother, it's disastrous. And of course that's like an extreme example, but I think we do versions of that with investing. Watch cnbc. There's no nuance in terms of who they're talking to. They have a guest on that just says, you know, you should short Microsoft before earning. Like, who are you talking to? Like that advice could be very good for one person and disastrous for another. And so I really think it's that. And why I think like the health analogy is appropriate is because there are two areas in life in which every single person on the planet has an, a personal obligation to become if not experts in at least very well knowledged in. And that is health and money. Because it is almost impossible to have a good life if you don't pay any attention to those two things, they will eventually catch up with you. So when I hear people say like, oh, I'm just not interested in finance, I'm just not interested. Well, like finance is interested in you, like it's going to catch up to you. And if someone said I'm just not interested in health, I just don't want to be healthy, you're like, well, you're going to have a hard life, that's going to be a difficult one to get around. And so when people say like, I don't understand it, it's intimidating, A, I empathize with that because it can be intimidating and B, I think you need to get over that and you have an obligation to learn about it.

[Dave Meyer]

So you know, you talked about some of the basics here. You know, budgeting, personal finance. A lot of our audience, they're pursuing financial freedom, they're looking to buy back a lot of their time. I know a topic that you talk a lot about. What basics do people need to be able to set a long term goal and then pursue it consistently? Because I think that's what holds a lot of people back is that the goals feel so far away or so far into the future that they wind up not getting started at all.

[Morgan Housel]

I think there's two things to keep in mind here. One is that long term goals can actually be very different because everyone is going to change between now and whenever then is. And so if your goal is, let's say you're 30 years old and you say by age 65, I want to have $2 million in the bank, that's a goal. It's so far in the future. It's, you know, 35 years in the future that you're like, why even buy? Like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to cover groceries next week. You're talking about 65 years old. Like, forget about it. If you're thinking about it that far in the future, it is very difficult. But if you were to say, if you flipped it around and said, like, look, that's not necessarily my goal. My goal Is to save 200 per month or whatever it might be, and that's that it's not even a goal per se, it's a system. So rather than a goal, you're saying, I, I am going to save $200 per month. You're taking what is effectively a long term goal and you're turning it into a short term system. And it's easier to wrap your head around the realistic horizon of what you're looking at in life. I'm not thinking about 65 years old. I'm thinking about what I'm going to do, the next paycheck. And so that's, I think that makes it more manageable for people. The last thing I'd bring up, Charlie Munger was the one who brought this up and I think it was a, a blunt but profound and probably realistic observation when he said, when you're teaching financial skills to young people, they either understand it instantly or never. It's one of those two.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah.

[Morgan Housel]

And so I think to your point, there's a harsh truth around this. Buffet has talked about people who have the money mind where some people just, just get it naturally. They just understand what we're talking about without any kind of education. And so to your point, I think some people find it very easy to save for the future without any effort. It's just a natural course of events for them, and other people will always struggle doing it for the rest of their lives. It's just kind of how people are wired.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah, that makes sense. Well, hopefully everyone in our audience has that money mindset that they're listening to this show, so I think they at least have some leg up. We gotta take a quick break, but we'll be back with Morgan Housel right after this. Do you ever notice how every passive investment somehow turns into a very active lifestyle? Active spreadsheets, active phone calls, active stress? Here's a better question. What if you could buy brand new construction homes 10% below market value in the best markets across the country without making real estate your second job? That's exactly what Rent to Retirement does. They're a full service turnkey investment company handling everything for you. In some cases, investors get 50 to 75% of their down payment back at closing, plus interest rates as low as 3.75%. They've partnered with Biggerpockets for over a decade, helping thousands invest smarter. If you want to do the same, visit biggerpockets.com retirement to learn more. If you've ever run rentals, you know this feeling. Your maintenance guy quits, two turnovers hit at once, tenants are texting you at midnight and suddenly you're the plumber, the leasing agent, and the bookkeeper. Total chaos. That's when I think, this is not my job. This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Because hoping the right person randomly finds your job post that isn't a strategy. With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, you can actually target people with the exact skills you need. Property managers, techs, bookkeepers. People who can jump in fast and fix problems. And here's the thing. People are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. In just the minute I've been talking to you. Companies like yours made 27 hires on Indeed according to Indeed Data worldwide. That's real momentum. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. That means less stress, less time, but more results when you need the right person to cut through the chaos. The this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Listeners of this show will get a $75 indeed sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com podcast. Just go to Indeed.com podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. This isn't your job. It's a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs Vacation is expensive. Your empty place doesn't have to be. If you're heading out of town and your home is sitting empty, you could list your space on Airbnb while you're away and turn those unused nights into extra income. And with Airbnb's co host network, getting started is more straightforward than most people think. You can hire a vetted local co host with hosting experience who could create your listing, manage reservations, handle guest communications, and even provide on site support for guests during their stay. So while you're away spending money, your space could be working in the background, bringing in extra cash. Find a co [e-mail] host Most deals don't fall apart because of the numbers. They fall apart because of the financing. You find a property that cash flows, the deal makes sense. But then the lender looks at your personal income, your tax returns, your debt to income ratio, and suddenly the deal doesn't qualify. That's the disconnect, because as investors, we're not buying based on our W2, we're buying based on the asset. That's why Host Financial offers DSCR loans designed for real estate investors, where qualification is based primarily on the property's income, not your personal finances. So no W2s, no tax returns and no DTI requirements. And with loan to value options up to 80 or even 85% on eligible deals, you can keep more capital available as you grow. If you're buying rentals, refinancing or scaling your portfolio, go to host financial.com that's h o s t financial.com and see what you qualify for. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. Let's get back into my conversation with Morgan House household. You said something, though, Morgan, about systems which I really appreciate and trying to just focus a couple years out. Do you work backwards from where you want to be at 65 to develop those systems? Like how much money you need to be saving even if you wind up changing it? Don't you have to sort of like start with some idea of where you want to be long term?

[Morgan Housel]

Yeah, and this goes back to like the, the basic technical financial skills of understanding growth and compounding. And so I do this with my own money. I max out the accounts that I can, and that's my system now. Once in a while I'll be like, hey, I'm just curious, if I keep doing that for 30 years, how much am I going to have when I'm 70 years old? Like, oh, let's do the math. Oh, that's kind of cool.

[Unidentified Speaker]

Great.

[Morgan Housel]

But that's secondary to the system of I'm doing the best I can right now and that's, that's all I could, that I can do and that's the system. And so I think that's very similar for health. Again, it's a good thing and it's a fine thing to say. I want to lose 10 pounds. That's a goal, that's great. A better system is I run 5 miles per week or whatever. And that's, I think that's how I think about my own health. I don't have any health goals, I don't have any fitness goals, but I run every other day. It's part of the schedule. And when I do it, I don't think to myself, oh, I'm one step closer to whatever the goal might be. It's just, this is what I do. It's just part of the routine. I think if you can get your financial habits closer to that, the irony is you're more likely to reach whatever goals you might have in the future than if you were only thinking about the very far distant future and trying to shape your daily habits around that.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me and I think it's very good advice for just basic budgeting and what you're talking about, but also for real estate investors as well. Just getting in the process of managing your properties well, saving for your next properties, just doing it, not thinking about, oh, I need to get X number of units or X number of doors, but one, you're more likely to succeed. I also just think you kind of enjoy it more if you're just like always living for something that's 10 years or 20 years or 30 years down the line. It's not very satisfying. Like that's the whole point of money, is to enjoy it incrementally while you still can. Not waiting till you're 65 years old.

[Morgan Housel]

I think there's a point too where this has happened with a lot of things in life, with technology, where we can now track the progress of almost everything we do down to the third decimal point. And I think that amount of data and optimization can drive people crazy.

[Dave Meyer]

Oh, it does.

[Morgan Housel]

And so I'll give you an example with my Apple watch and tracking my daily steps. A, it's a good thing that if it's 6pm and I say, hey, I don't have a lot of steps today, I should go for a walk, that's a good thing. You can also kind of drive yourself crazy of becoming this like Neurotic, like optimizer in life. And I think there's a lot of that with finance too, where if you just have a good enough savings philosophy and spending philosophy, look, I save about X percent of my income and I enjoy my life and I save about then, like, I don't know, that's good enough. Could I do better? I don't know. Could my portfolio be a better allocation? Like, I, I don't. It's probably good enough and, but I'm not going to become neurotic optimizing around the edges. I think that's, that's important too. And I think a lot of people, when they get burned out with finances, it's, it's because they were too obsessed with optimizing down to the third decimal point when it should have just been good enough. Because the truth is, like, there are so many unknown variables of stock market returns, your income, your career, that we shouldn't pretend that we should be optimizing this in any meaningful way. If you could just get like, directionally right, that's about as good as you can be over time.

[Dave Meyer]

I feel like the best thing in finance is to not think about finance. That's how you. Is an important, in my mind, barometer of success is if you're wealthy and you're thinking about your money all the time, you're kind of missing the whole point totally.

[Morgan Housel]

Right.

[Dave Meyer]

I understand that if you don't have money, you're worrying about money.

[Unidentified Speaker]

That sucks.

[Dave Meyer]

You should try and hopefully find a way to get out of that. But the whole point of doing all this is to not be thinking about it.

[Morgan Housel]

One little story that was related to this that I loved, this was in the 1980s, and I think it was Morningstar, maybe it was Forbes, Some big financial magazine would track the best fund managers of the year. And one year in the early 80s, the best mutual fund manager with the highest returns was somebody that nobody had ever heard of. He just came out of the blue and all sudden was the top performing fund manager for like the previous two years, I think it was. And so the magazine, Forbes, Fortune, whatever it was, sent a journalist to go interview this gentleman, this guy no one's ever heard of. And they came in and they're like, hey, you've earned such good returns. How did you do it? And he pulled out Value Line, which was a magazine that ranked how cheap stocks were just formulaically. And he pulls out Value Line and he says, I bought the cheapest stocks and that's it. And that was his whole house. And you compare that like this brainless, simple strategy to other portfolio managers that like hire astrophysics PhDs and pull their hair out with the most complicated models and do worse. And, and there's so much the modern version of that guy in the 80s are people who just dollar cost average into index funds and beat the pants off of 90% of investors. The era of big data and big tracking can really backfire in a lot of ways.

[Dave Meyer]

I agree with you and you said something earlier about being directionally right, like that's the whole value of dollar cost averaging. Right? Like you just want to tie your results to the overall performance in most cases in the stock market. But Morgan, we also teach our audience to dollar cost average into real estate to try and do this regular to, to tie their performance to the long term average of the U.S. housing market. You're gonna be fine. Like sometimes you might buy an okay deal, sometimes you're gonna buy a great deal, but over time it actually just works. And you know, I have been thinking about this a lot recently that I think maybe the best skill of an investor is just, is just patience. Just being willing to wait for it and not focusing on, in our, in our line of work, like, oh, my cash flow went down this month, or I had to fix a water heater or you know, I had a vacancy this month. Like that stinks. But if you just zoom out, if you're just willing to look at this thing over 10, 15, 20, 30 years, it's fine.

[Morgan Housel]

Yeah.

[Dave Meyer]

And all these worries that you have are completely trivial in the grand scheme of things and are probably causing you more harm than good because you're just stressing out over something that isn't really going to matter.

[Morgan Housel]

Right. I'll give you another example of this. And this has to do with like having too much data and tracking on most modern cars, including a car that I bought a couple months ago. It shows you your recent gas mileage, like for this trip.

[Dave Meyer]

Oh, I hate, like, hey, in the

[Morgan Housel]

last 10 miles you got X miles per gallon. And it drives me nuts because I can be like, hey, the last trip it was 26.4, now it's 26.3. Like what, what happened here? And even if I know, like hey, I know this is going to average out to 30 miles per gallon or whatever. And like that's what it's going to be over the course of a year. And I'm freaking out that it went down by like a couple 10 of a percentage point. Especially when you're like, hey, let's Say it used to be 30 and now it's 29.8. What does that cost me over the course of a year? Like $3. It's like the difference in gas mileage that it cost me.

[Dave Meyer]

And you're spending the whole time you're driving just thinking about that and you're like, it's $3 that I just spent

[Morgan Housel]

an hour thinking gauge in front of you. And then I'm thinking, I was like, oh, are, are, are my tires not filled up enough? Am I, am I lead footed right now? Like, what's going on? You drive yourself crazy rather than just being like, I got a car that will get about 30 miles per gallon and even if it's 28, it's not, it's, it doesn't matter. It's, it's good enough. So the equivalent like that, that's the mentality that I want with money and that's why I dollar cost average into index funds. Do I think that there are smart investors in the world who, who will outperform index funds over time? Yes, there are, there have been, there will continue to be. I'm fine doing my good enough approach. And my desire with money is not to outperform my neighbors or outperform my peers. It's to use money to give my, myself and my family like the most effort adjusted quality of life that we can have. I love that people in finance always talk about risk adjusted returns. That term is everywhere risk adjusted. I think we need to talk about effort adjusted returns and stress adjusted returns because let's say as an index fund investor, I can earn 10% per year and an active manager can earn 10 and a half percent per year. But they do it working 50 hours a week, stressed out beyond belief, not spending as much time with their family and their kids and going for walks and sleeping in and taking naps and like, who's actually earning a higher return? I think in effort adjusted terms, I'm earning a way higher return than they are.

[Dave Meyer]

I love that. And I think for our audience that the effort spectrum is really long, large in real estate because like if you're going out and doing renovations, you know, scaling at all costs, which has really become sort of like a pervasive mindset in our industry. Like it's so much work you're getting, you're doing so much work and sometimes it's worth it. For certain people who really want to scale a massive business, that can be worth it, but really think that more real estate investors need to think about that. For, for example, Like, I've been just selling off properties that are a pain in my butt and just buying ones that are in really good condition recently because I just don't want to deal with it anymore. And I, I will take a lower return, but I have a higher quality of life. And that's like the entire point of all of this.

[Morgan Housel]

Yeah.

[Dave Meyer]

And Morgan, I think that's something I've always resonated with with your writing and work is it's really thinking about the big picture and less about individual performance. But like, what are you gaining by having more money? Because it requires a balancing act. Right. Like saving and building up a financial cushion sometimes does require some sacrifice. But then I think you have some people who get so obsessed with that, to your point, about data and tracking, that they can never like pull back and actually spend and enjoy the fruits of their labor. So like, how do you recommend people balance that? How, how do you toe that line?

[Morgan Housel]

I, I've written about some of these people in like the introduction of the psychology money. Every couple years you'll see a new story of an uneducated minimum wage country bumpkin who dies with $8 million and leaves it all to charity. Like, these stories come up and they're always very positive, like happy stories. And I profiled some of. There are really cool stories. But I think there are a lot of people who die with a substantial sum of money and maybe they don't admit it to themselves, they don't have a lot of regret. But could you have used that money as a tool to live a better life? Even if what you did with it was given your money away with a warm hand instead of a cold hand?

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah.

[Morgan Housel]

Giving it away when you were alive and you got to see the benefit that it made until you wait until you're dead and you're the executor on your estate, gave it all away to someone and made their life better and watched the happiness that came from that. Would you had a better time doing that? I think the answer is, is yes. I've changed a lot of my thinking in terms of giving money to kids and to charity in terms of, you know, there's, there's a great book, Die with Zero. It talks a lot about this is like, if you're going to leave money from your kids, don't wait until they're 70 when they probably don't need it. You know, when they need it, they need it when you're, when they're 30 and they need to buy their first house or they just had Their first kid. That's when you're going to make a lot of difference. And so that's. I think that that's a big part of it. So even if you're not going to spend it on yourself, figuring out a way to use it as a tool for the betterment of other people around you, that's really important.

[Dave Meyer]

What do you make of the fire movement, Morgan?

[Morgan Housel]

I love the first two letters of it, and I'm not big on the last two letters of it. Financial independence. Love it. Love. Love every bit of it. Want it for myself. It's pretty much the. The sole goal that I've ever had with money was to be independent. It's all I've ever wanted. Retire early. Way more complicated, because I think that you saw this in the fire movement of how many people retired at 32, and that was their goal. And they had this giant celebration, oh, my gosh, I'm done. I get to live another 50 years doing whatever I want. And about week two of retirement, they woke up and they said, I'm bored. And boredom leads to depression for a lot of people. And so I always say, like, if you think work is hard, try boredom. It's way harder. It is way more psychologically taxing than dealing with a bad boss and commuting. It's. It's brutal for people because it's so existential. So fire is great if you have backfilled your life with very meaningful challenges. Not just work, but challenges. I think there is a minimum level of stress that people need in life. There's a stress floor that you need, and if you don't find that stress from legitimate problems, you will find that stress from fake problems that you've made up and are blowing out of proportion. And I also think I'm going down off a tangent here, but I think one of the reasons that politics is so divisive and so nasty today, more than it was 50 years ago, is because 50 years ago, we had real problems to deal with that were taking up our time, and today we have relatively fewer of them. So we've made up, rather than worrying about, like, how am I going to feed my kids? And, like, is there going to be a nuclear holocaust next month? We have moved our stress focus to. Did you see what this congressman tweeted yesterday?

[Dave Meyer]

Like, cultural wars.

[Morgan Housel]

Yeah, yeah, culture wars. Exactly. And so I think a lot of people in the. In the firing movement, if they don't have the stress and the challenge of work, they will make it up in other areas of their Life that can be very, just psychologically taxing.

[Dave Meyer]

I couldn't agree more. I love financial independence, the retire early thing, it's so I see it even with my parents who are in their 70s, you know, they struggle with retirement and they worked 50 some odd years to be able to get there and they're bored, you know, like they don't exactly know what to do. Think about someone with the energy of a 35 year old doing that, you know, it's hard to wrap your head around. I think this, I don't know for you, Morgan, but for me the sweet spot is just being able to choose what you work on and how your time and day is structured. I think that's what I try and focus on. I work full time right now and I'm very happy doing it. But I think, you know, 10 years from now I'd love to work like 25 hours a week, something like that, and be able to pick and choose when I work. I don't know if you call that retirement. Some people call like work optional or whatever it is. I just think it's important for people to find something that's meaningful them and to contribute, like to contribute to society. Find a way to add value to even if it's just your community. Like something like that is so valuable. I don't like the idea of just like tapping out, you know, I mean like I'm out being a productive member of society. I'm just going to do nothing.

[Morgan Housel]

Totally. No, I think that's kind of worthless.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah.

[Morgan Housel]

I heard someone say this, that for a lot of tech founders who get rich when they're, you know, 30, a lot of them will at least take, let's call it a sabbatical.

[Unidentified Speaker]

Sure.

[Morgan Housel]

And be like, look, I cashed out, I made $10 million. I'm just going to take two years off and then I'll get back in the game. What so many of them said is that if someone takes two years and then tries to get back, the amount of brain atrophy that they have in those two years is stunning. And like brain atrophy is a real thing. Like obviously if you stopped working out, you would lose a lot of money.

[Dave Meyer]

Oh yeah, you wouldn't look the same, take forever.

[Morgan Housel]

But people don't really think about that with their intelligence and just staying on top of things. And so I think that's, that's a big part of it too is that you are working out your brain every day with challenging problems that are driving you crazy. That gives you a certain level of stress that you're trying to figure this thing out, and whatever that thing is, should be contributing to something bigger than yourself. Not just stressing out about where you're going to take your next vacation, but a problem that's going to help other people and is bigger than you. Everybody needs some level of that.

[Dave Meyer]

What about the other end of the spectrum? What do you make of these sort of pervasive hustle culture that you see around either entrepreneurship or investing or finance that at least I see a lot of on social media.

[Morgan Housel]

I think it's. I think it's 90% performative.

[Dave Meyer]

And you might be generous. There might be more.

[Morgan Housel]

Yeah, I am. Let's call it 99.9% performative. And look, if you were going to hire someone, one of the traits that you would want is that they were very efficient with their time, that they could. That they could produce a lot in a short amount of time. And so when you look at these people who are like, I work a hundred hours a week, you're like, yeah, sounds like you're very inefficient at whatever you do.

[Dave Meyer]

Sucks.

[Morgan Housel]

Like, sounds like you're not doing a very good job. That sucks for you. Sounds like you have no time management skills. Sounds like you're not using any technology to leverage what you do, not the flex you think it is.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah.

[Morgan Housel]

And. And so I think that there's a lot of that. It is kind of sad that we have using the amount of time that you work as a proxy for the value that you add, because it's not even close to that in the, in the real world. And most of you have probably been to a doctor's appointment where a doctor changed your life for the better in 10 minutes. Like, they, they diagnosed you and they're like, oh, here, here, here's the pill you should take. And you're like, oh, everything's better now in 10 minutes. It does. Sometimes it doesn't take a tremendous amount of time to move the needle by a gargantuan amount. But I, I think the reason that we do associate hustle with results is because it's so easy to track. It's very hard to track, like, how productive you are. But if someone says, I work 100 hours a week, like, I can track that. And I can compare that to how often I work. It's very apples to apples comparable. And so it has this allure of the ultimate metric. Even if. If you were hiring someone, it would be the last thing you would want is someone who's like, it Takes me a tremendous amount of time to get very little done.

[Dave Meyer]

One of my favorite quotes is, what gets measured is what gets done. And I think it. We talk about this on the show, but I think that's true with this hustle culture mentality. It's like, oh, I work a hundred hours. Like, well, then you're going to fill up your week to a hundred hours every week because you value that for whatever reason, you have decided that that's the measurement. That's the metric that's going to take you from where you are to where you want to be, but you're not actually measuring the right thing. We have this metric in real estate investing. Morgan door count. People count how many units they have. I think it's the worst metric out there because it's similar to this does not measure efficiency. You could go out and buy 150 awful units, and these are the people who show up to real estate investing meetups and brag about how many units they have. I own not that many, but they're very, very efficient. They're very good at getting me what I need because it's taken me some time, but I've actually figured out how to measure the right thing and focus on that and sort of try to ignore everything else.

[Morgan Housel]

Yeah.

[Dave Meyer]

For people who are pursuing their financial path, like, are there good things to be looking at frequently? Like, we've talked a lot about what not to track. But are there things in addition to having the right systems that people should be keeping an eye on?

[Morgan Housel]

One thing that I'm reminded of when you say that is that, you know, if. If I can earn a 10% return per year and you can earn 15% return, just. Just as an example. But I have a simpler life than you do, let's say, then it's possible that I'm actually earning higher returns than you are. Because there's some people. Let's say you have a hedge fund manager and they can earn 20% per year. You're like, that's amazing. You're like, yeah, but do you see his lifestyle? He needs 20% per year just to break even. And, you know, other. And you have other people who are like, their life is so simple that if they earn 3% return, all their bases are covered. Everything's good.

[Dave Meyer]

That person's killing it.

[Morgan Housel]

They're killing it. And so that's the efficiency level that when we compare returns, like, it's not. It's not apples to apples. Like, for example, there are so many pension funds that are so underfunded that even if they earn 15% return, they're still screwed. It's still, it's, it's never enough. And there's people who have gigantic retirement funds, you know, you know, these individuals who like, don't need to earn anything. Daniel Kahneman, the late psychologist, talked about this. He went to a financial advisor when he was like 75 or something like that, and he said, I have no desire to ever see my net worth higher than it is right now. He said, I just want to live off, live out my days on this pot that I've accumulated and that's all I want to do. And he said the financial advisor told him, I can't work with you because it was so antithetical to the financial advisor that somebody would not want more money. But like, Kahneman was so content with what he had that he was like, zero percent return is enough for me. That's all, it's all I want. Like, that's the efficiency that you want to track. Like, what return do you need to achieve your goals? That's, that's a, I think that's an interesting statistic that we don't talk about a lot.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah, that's a great way to look at it and it really tells you what kind of investing strategy you need to, to pursue. Because, you know, in real estate we have rental property investing earns you a good risk adjusted return. Or you could go out and flip, which is super high risk, high effort. But you know, if your goals require that you 12x your money in the next 10 years, like you're going to have to go out and take a lot more risk. But for most people it's just not necessary. And so you don't have to be going out and trying to earn this maximum rate of return. You should do this exercise and maybe you don't have to try so hard. Like, maybe things are a little bit easier than you expect them to be.

[Morgan Housel]

Right. You see this very often in venture funded startups where a company will make a big splash and say, we raised $100 million from venture capitalists. You're like, great. That is like, cool. Congratulations. You know what that also means? It means that you now have to absolutely crush it just to break even. Like your expectations just went vertical. And is there a world where if you had only raised $20 million, but with reasonable expectations, you actually could have managed the business in a much more effective way?

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah, perhaps. Yeah.

[Morgan Housel]

And so like people don't realize that expectations are a debt that has to be repaid. Your own expectations other people's expectations is a form of debt. It's a hidden form of debt. You don't see it, but it is very real in terms of that psychological financial hurdle that you have to clear just to break even.

[Dave Meyer]

We're going to have more with Morgan right after this quick break. Stick with us. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you've heard us talk about Lightstone Direct, the direct to investor platform from Lightstone, a $12 billion real estate firm that invests 20% plus of the equity in each investment, right alongside accredited investors. Right now they're inviting investors into Hidden Lakes, a 384 unit apartment community in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Lightstone is acquiring it at a 12% discount to comparable sales and they already own and operate 10,000 apartment units in Michigan, so they know the market cold. The deal is targeting a 7.3% net cash on cash return to LPs and a 13% net IRR and a four year hold. Accredited investors only $100,000 minimum. All investments involve risk. Visit lightstonedirect.com BP you've upgraded how to

[Unidentified Speaker]

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[Dave Meyer]

think about insurance when something goes wrong. A tenant, injury, storm damage, loss of rent. Then suddenly the cheapest policy doesn't feel like the best one anymore. That's why a lot of bigger pockets investors use steadily for landlord insurance designed specifically for rental properties. Whether you own one property or growing portfolio, they make it simple to get covered properly. And Biggerpockets Pro members get an extra 5% off their landlord insurance premiums. Visit biggerpockets.com landlord insurance to get a quote today. Welcome back to the show. Let's get back into my conversation with Morgan Housel how do you get that mindset? How do you figure out what's genuinely enough for you and that you don't need to keep doing the rat race? Because I think our culture has us set up to keep striving right like that, culturally, like that's what we value. But when I hear those two possible outcomes, being a billionaire or being perfectly content with what I have, I would choose being perfectly content with what I had. And I hope to try and get closer to that.

[Morgan Housel]

To me, what moved the needle the most in terms of having enough was the realization that nobody is thinking about me as much as I am and nobody is thinking about you as much as you are. And that we massively overestimate how much attention we get for our position in world and for our stuff. And that it's easy to think that, oh, if I had a bigger house, all these other people would look at me and say, he's so great, he's so amazing. Look at his big house I so admire. And they don't. Yeah, they don't do that. If, if anything, when they look at your big house, they just imagine themselves living in it. Yeah, they don't give you any credit for it. They just think, wouldn't that be cool if I lived it? Whenever people go to Zillow and you know, so many people do this of like, what would I buy if my budget was 25 million? And look at all these houses. They're not admiring the people who actually live there. Never thought dreaming about living there themselves.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah.

[Morgan Housel]

And so once you come to terms with how silly that game is, then I think you're a lot of your desire for social status, not all of it A lot. Some of it is necessary to fit in, but a lot of your desire falls and then at that point you're like, look, I don't want to use money to gain what I think is a higher position in terms of status. I want to use money as a tool for independence and to give my immediate family the most enjoyable, happy, laughter filled, content life that they can live.

[Dave Meyer]

Right? Absolutely. Yeah.

[Morgan Housel]

And so I think that that move, that, that moved the needle a lot for me.

[Dave Meyer]

That's a really good way to put it. And I'm not like, you know, arguing for so, like, complete financial restraint or extreme budgeting. Like, I'm not like that personally. I spend money. But you get around these people and sometimes you do start to see, like, oh, my God, they have so much money. Like, how could it be? And it's hard to sort of sometimes just sit back being like, no, I'm, I'm good. Like, I've worked hard, I'm following my goals and just being content with your plan that you genuinely feel is best for you and your family. I will just say, I think it's easier said than done. It can be difficult to do.

[Morgan Housel]

I don't know if I've ever told the story, but when I was. This is when I was young, back when I was a valet at a hotel in Los Angeles, I've told lots of stories from that era, but one that stood out. It was one of the members at the hotel who came in all the time was one of the founders of Quicksilver Clothes, you know, the surf clothing brand. It was like huge in the 90s and early 2000. One of the founders made a huge fortune for himself and he drove a silver Toyota Tacoma. And he was the nicest guy. So polite, so kind, always smiling and looking you in the eye and saying, good morning, hey, you know, so great. And then there were five dozen other members at the club who drove Rolls Royces and Lamborghinis. And they were pricks and they were rude and they were jerks, and they did not have a fraction of the wealth that the silver Tacoma guy had. And I remember at that age being like, this guy, the quicksilver guy. That's my boy. That's. That's my idol. That's who I look up to. And I didn't look up to him because his car had less horsepower or because he was cheap in his car. I looked up to him because I'm like, that guy's comfortable with himself. He has no desire to show off for other people. And the Reason that I knew he was comfortable with himself is because he was so kind and so many of the other people were such jerks. And I think a lot of times there's a saying that I love of like, if you want to find the smartest person in a room, find the nicest person. That's the smartest person in the room. That's the person who understands how long term relationships works. That's the person. That's a person who has the mental horsepower to look beyond our, like, caveman emotions of competing with each other and fighting with each other. And so that was. I always like that. Like he just had a simple, content life that I really looked up to.

[Dave Meyer]

Absolutely. And that Tacoma is probably still running too.

[Morgan Housel]

I love it.

[Dave Meyer]

Probably has 300,000 miles crushing it. Absolutely. Well, this has been great. Morgan, I actually just have one more question for you. It's actually about housing because I saw you had written something on Substack about. I think you said the majority of societal problems are all downstream of housing affordability. I'm curious if you could just talk about that because we talk about housing affordability and the lack thereof a lot on the show. I'm just curious your take on it.

[Morgan Housel]

Yeah. I think it's not an exaggeration that so many societal problems are downstream of housing because the evidence is when young people can't afford to buy a house for themselves, they get married less often, they have fewer kids, they're more likely to have drug problems, alcohol problems, mental health problems. They have less successful careers. It is one of the boxes that we check as a society to show that you've made it to the next level, that you have progressed from childhood into adulthood is I can afford a house. And we have. I think this is the right phrasing. We have made a choice, that's what it is, to make housing as expensive as it is. And the very simple economics of housing right now and why it's so expensive is we don't build enough homes.

[Dave Meyer]

That's right.

[Morgan Housel]

Like plain and simple. There is so much more demand than there are available homes for sale. And the reason that we're not building homes is not because we're out of lumber or out of carpenters. It's a local issue of not allowing homes to be built where people want to live. And it should be more of a pitchfork and torches issue with people if they knew that this was a choice. Look, there are times when like gas prices are really high and they're like, there's not a lot we can do. About it. It's a, sometimes, sometimes a war that's out of our hands or in the early 2000s, we don't have the technology to figure out fracking and horizontal drilling like that was a technical problem. Housing is not a technical problem. It's a regulatory issue. And I don't think it's more complicated than that. Of course there are more variables in housing than just that. But the 800 pound gorilla of why we don't build enough homes and therefore why housing is so expensive is because we don't allow the homes to be built. And we could make, we could change that decision tomorrow. And once you change that decision, you would see like all those problems would, would flow down from there within due time. It might take five or 10 years,

[Dave Meyer]

but it will take time.

[Morgan Housel]

I would bet the, the marriage rate would go up, the fertility rate would go up, drug use would go down. Even down to like when you rent an apartment, you are a guest in your community. When you own a home, you're like, I have a, literally a vested interest in making sure this community is on the up and up and I'm going to vote differently. I'm going to pay attention to local policies more than I would versus if you're just kind of a transient renter and you're like in and out, I might move next year. I don't really have any real footing in this. So it has a huge societal impact beyond just the real estate market.

[Dave Meyer]

I couldn't agree with you more. I know a lot of people are surprised when real estate investors say this, but I, I think that housing affordability is one of, if not the biggest problem that we face in our society right now. It creates all these downstream issues and I would personally just like to see these changes get made. Even if that means appreciation on assets I own goes down. Like, I would be fine with that. I think it's much more important for our society that people have this access. It's a big part of the social contract in the United States to be able to own a home.

[Morgan Housel]

I would leave you with one little thing too to think about. The flat screen TV in 2003 cost $10,000. They're, they're $200.

[Dave Meyer]

That's crazy, man.

[Morgan Housel]

When, when, when you let a market build what it needs to and become as efficient as it needs to, you can drive the price through the floor. And the fact that we have not done something similar to that in housing, like, look, the housing prices are not going to drop 90% just, just based off the supply and demand. But for a physical good, you can drive the price down substantially if you just build enough of it. That should be very obvious. And that's, that's the issue with housing is that we simply just don't build enough.

[Dave Meyer]

Absolutely. And that does not mean real estate investing like won't work. I know people hear these things and they, they panic about it. But like this business, it worked. In times of no appreciation, you still get cash flow and amortization and tax benefits. There's like all these things. There does not need to be scarcity of housing for this to be an industry. Well, Morgan, this was so much fun. I really appreciate it. It was great talking to you. Super excited for you to join us at bpcon. If you guys haven't got tickets yet, it's this October 2nd through 4th in Orlando. Morgan is going to be our keynote speaker on the opening night. You can grab tickets@bigger pop pockets.com conference and Morgan, before BPCON, if people wanted to learn more from you, where should they do that?

[Morgan Housel]

Well, my, my three books, the Psychology of Money, Same as ever, and the Art of Spending Money. Every good and sometimes not so good idea that I've ever had about money and finance made its way into one of those books. That's where you can check it out.

[Dave Meyer]

They're awesome. I highly, highly recommend it. They have changed my philosophy and hopefully some of my behavior around money. So definitely check those out. Thanks again, Morgan.

[Morgan Housel]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Dave Meyer]

And thank you all so much for listening to this episode of the BiggerPockets podcast. We'll see you all next time. Thank you all for listening to the BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K. Copywriting is by Calico, content and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.biggerpockets.com. the content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk, so use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. BiggerPockets LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.