BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast: "Retired in His Mid-40s Using the Perfect 'Small' Rental Property Formula"

Date: December 3, 2025
Host: Dave Meyer
Guest: Matt Hawkins, "the Lumberjack Landlord"

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dave Meyer chats with Matt Hawkins, also known as "the Lumberjack Landlord," about his unique path to financial freedom through small multifamily rentals (primarily duplexes and triplexes). Matt shares how he built a portfolio of 150+ units, allowing him to retire in his mid-40s—not by chasing huge apartment complexes, but by mastering the "boring but beautiful" fundamentals of small-scale real estate investing. The discussion covers Matt's systems-driven approach, actionable tips for asset optimization, fostering positive tenant relationships, and some of his latest creative projects, including the conversion of a historic jail into community space.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Matt’s Background & Entry Into Investing

• Dropped out of school in 9th grade, worked various jobs, and moved into a software career.
• Lost everything during the 2000-2001 stock market crash, prompting research into assets with both appreciation and cash flow.
• Noticed real estate’s prevalence among millionaires and decided to invest in 2003 via house hacking even when banks said he didn’t qualify.

Quote:

"I'm a 9th grade dropout, so any room I walk into, everyone's more educated than I am... I lost all my money in the stock market explosion in 2000, 2001. Lost it all then. And it was every, literally every dime I had." — Matt [01:49]

2. The Small Multifamily Approach

• Focused on building wealth through 2-4 unit properties rather than large commercial buildings.
• Emphasizes precise deal evaluation using a custom "rent box" with 17 criteria for screening potential acquisitions.

Quote:

"What really attracted me... was, with larger commercial properties... the value fluctuates based on rents. On the residential side, it’s much more driven by what the last thing sold for." — Matt [04:05]

• Buys under-market, non-turnkey properties to force appreciation via value-add improvements.
• It's not about the door count; every acquisition must "fit the box" and be a great deal.
• Operates with a 'definable, repeatable, executable' formula.

Quote:

"Definable, repeatable, executable. I can define it, I can repeat it, and I can execute on it. Whatever the plan is." — Matt [06:43]

3. Systems and Self-Management for Scaling Up

• Managed up to 120 units solo, only bringing in help (his wife) after major growth.
• Brought tech-sector systems/process discipline to property management: problems are solved systematically, freeing time for new acquisitions.
• Developed an "acquire, stabilize, optimize" framework, ensuring each new asset is improved and streamlined before moving on.

Quote:

"Most people do the growth and then figure out systems after. If you figure out the systems beforehand, then it allows you to grow to a level you never thought you could." — Matt [11:51]

4. Tenant Relations & Stabilization

• Immediate outreach to tenants upon acquiring a building, addressing unresolved issues to build goodwill and reduce future headaches.
• Fully automated emergency processes: tenants are instructed on when/how to contact for issues, but Matt’s phone doesn’t ring.

Quote:

"Our introductory letter to tenants... is, hey, we're really excited to be your landlords. Don't be nervous. We're not raising your rent...it's the fastest way to unearth issues." — Matt [13:48]

• Focus is on creating partner-like relationships with tenants, leading to lower vacancy and fewer problems.

5. Underwriting, Renovation, and Value-Add

• Spent years "house hacking"—living in and renovating his own properties, then renting them out, using cash-out refis to fuel further growth.
• Now prioritizes renovations that balance cost-efficiency and tenant appeal, such as better cabinets, robust appliances, and thoughtful lighting.

Quote:

"Are you saying you have to put out a competitive product to be successful? ...You can actually put something out that is rehabbed, not as nice as brand new, but close enough...you're getting a 20% premium over existing." — Dave & Matt [18:09–18:29]

• Emphasizes that upfront investments in quality translate to higher rents, better tenants, and easier future sales.

6. Optimization & Asset Efficiency

• Encourages fellow landlords to systematically address small but chronic issues—"maintenance snowball"—that sap time and profits.
• Specific optimization examples include:
  • Installing 1.2-gallon toilets to cut water bills by up to $100–$200/month.
  • Regularly cleaning heating systems, upgrading appliances/fixtures for efficiency.
  • Adding insulation and addressing window drafts to reduce heating costs by 15-20%.

Quote:

"I'm a toilet dork...you could literally be saving $100 to $200 a month in water and sewer fees. That's money that ends up at the bottom line." — Matt [21:40]

• Suggests many investors have hidden value within their existing portfolio—optimize before acquiring more properties.

7. Minimizing Vacancy & Deepening Asset Performance

• Priority is on tenant retention and unit optimization over constant expansion.
• Tactics include:
  • Open communication about rent increases, grounded in transparency about rising landlord costs.
  • Transitioning utility expenses to tenants when possible.
  • Ongoing weatherization and energy-saving improvements.

Quote:

"If you look at the house as a system, you can start to pick off one thing after another...now my heat bill is 15% less...you're making 15 or 20% more on your asset than you were before." — Matt [29:07]

• Reinforces that depth (quality management, optimization) beats breadth (simply buying more units).

8. Community-Focused & Creative Projects

• Shared details of an unusual project: converting an 8,000 sq ft decommissioned jail/police station into a family space retaining the jail cells as playful community dining areas.

Quote:

"We kept the jail cells...part of our concept was doing a community play area...kids will be able to go eat in a jail cell after they finish playing and get some food." — Matt [32:35]

• Actively advocates for veteran housing, using his projects to carve out units for disabled veterans, especially in urban corridors.
• Aspires to teach the next generation: "It’s not get rich quick, it’s get rich for sure. It takes a decade or two."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On mindset:

  "Most people are just kind of opportunistic within their own niche. You don’t have some pie in the sky thing, but anytime something comes across your desk that fits your buy box, you’re going to do it." — Dave [06:07]

• On landlord/tenant relationships:

  "We’re not here just to raise your rent...We’re here to partner with you." — Matt [13:48]

• On systems and scaling:

  "You can manage 1 or 5 or 10. If this investor can self manage 150 units..." — Dave [00:02]

• On renovation strategy:

  "Almost no one optimizes. Almost no one." — Matt [12:53]

• On giving back:

  "Adding some disabled vet housing is really big for us, because we want to give back to those that fight for us." — Matt [34:19]

Timestamps of Important Segments

• Matt’s background and first deal: [01:49–03:34]
• Defining the ‘Rent Box’ and investment criteria: [04:05–06:43]
• Management systems and scaling: [11:28–13:23]
• Stabilization process with tenants: [13:48–15:06]
• Underwriting and renovation strategies: [16:23–19:32]
• Optimization and deep asset management: [20:31–22:45]
• Water/utility savings example: [21:40–22:45]
• Tenant retention and minimizing vacancy: [27:38–29:07]
• Renovating a jail and veteran housing projects: [31:47–34:19]
• Final words on real estate mindset and giving back: [34:44–35:24]

Tone & Takeaways

The episode strikes a candid, encouraging tone—Matt’s approach is methodical, unpretentious, and firmly rooted in practical, repeatable systems. Both he and Dave emphasize that financial freedom is achievable by focusing on mastering fundamentals, fostering tenant goodwill, optimizing assets, and being patient. The conversation is full of actionable advice, real-world examples, and a refreshing perspective on community-focused real estate entrepreneurship.

End of Summary