The 2025 Housing Market is Here! (What to Watch Starting NOW)

Summary

BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast Episode Summary Title: The 2025 Housing Market is Here! (What to Watch Starting NOW) Release Date: January 1, 2025 Host: Dave Meyer Guests: James Dard, Kathy Fecke, Henry Washington

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Introduction

In the inaugural episode of 2025, Dave Meyer welcomes listeners to the BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast with an enthusiastic discussion about the upcoming housing market trends and investment strategies for the year. Joined by fellow investors James Dard, Kathy Fecke, and Henry Washington, the episode delves into diverse perspectives on building wealth through real estate amidst the evolving economic landscape.

Setting the Scene for 2025

Dave Meyer sets the tone by expressing optimism about the real estate market in 2025, backed by current data and daily investment experiences. He outlines the episode's focus on actionable strategies and tactics that investors can leverage to grow their portfolios and achieve financial independence this year.

Notable Quote:

"I feel super optimistic and super excited about the prospect of real estate investing going forward."
— Dave Meyer [01:20]

Key Investment Strategies for 2025

House Hacking and Owner-Occupied Loans

Henry Washington emphasizes the importance of starting local with house hacking as a foundational strategy for passive investors aiming for financial freedom within a decade. Utilizing owner-occupied loans like FHA, conventional, or VA loans to purchase one- to four-unit properties allows investors to offset mortgage payments with rental income effectively.

Notable Quote:

"If I could have house hack, I would probably do that. It's just the easiest way to get started in your backyard."
— Henry Washington [02:47]

James Dard echoes this sentiment, highlighting the tax advantages of owner-occupied properties. By living in a property for two years, investors can later sell it with substantial capital gains tax exemptions—$250,000 for singles and $500,000 for married couples.

Notable Quote:

"If you're single, you get $250,000 of the increase in value tax free. If you're married, you get up to $500,000 tax free."
— James Dard [07:19]

Live-In Flipping

Henry Washington introduces the concept of live-in flipping, where investors reside in the property while renovating it, thereby avoiding capital gains taxes upon sale. This strategy not only generates tax-free profits but also allows for continuous reinvestment into new properties, accelerating portfolio growth.

Notable Quote:

"I can get maximum cash flow versus just selling it and taking the money and turning it into another property."
— Henry Washington [05:55]

James Dard adds that live-in flipping can be particularly lucrative in high-priced markets like California, where property appreciation is substantial and attainable.

Active vs. Passive Investing

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the distinction between active and passive investing. James Dard clarifies that active investing focuses on generating immediate cash flow to cover current expenses, akin to transactional income. In contrast, passive investing aims for long-term wealth accumulation without the necessity of immediate returns.

Notable Quote:

"Are you actively trying to make money to pay your bills or are you buying something for 10, 20 years from now?"
— James Dard [19:07]

This differentiation is crucial for investors to align their strategies with their financial goals and risk tolerance.

Out-of-State Investing

Dave Meyer advises considering out-of-state markets, especially affordable ones, to diversify portfolios and tap into regions with better cash flow potentials. Investing in less competitive markets can offer significant returns without the high entry barriers of more saturated areas.

Notable Quote:

"Look at out of state markets where you can buy duplexes for $250k or $300k or $400k and get some cash flow."
— Dave Meyer [18:32]

Tax Benefits and Financial Planning

The guests collectively stress the importance of understanding and leveraging tax benefits associated with real estate investments. Henry Washington discusses how strategic property acquisitions can help manage tax liabilities effectively, ensuring that investment growth is optimized.

Notable Quote:

"If you have money already, then your next step is to learn to just study like, like crazy to understand the opportunities that are there for you."
— James Dard [16:13]

Personal Goals for 2025

Henry Washington

Henry outlines his dual-focus strategy for 2025: increasing his flipping portfolio from 18 to 20-25 properties while selectively scaling back his rental holdings. His criteria for purchasing rentals hinge on location, cash flow potential, and tax optimization, ensuring each investment aligns with his financial and personal objectives.

Notable Quote:

"I'm going to focus on smaller stuff. I like 2 to 10 because we buy a lot of 20 to 50 units in Seattle. I like to hedge against whatever our partnership's doing because it balances out my portfolio."
— Henry Washington [25:28]

James Dard

James commits to maintaining a focus on rental properties in.hot markets and expanding his build-to-rent syndications. He anticipates significant demand in the build-to-rent sector and plans to capitalize on distressed properties and favorable loan conditions to enhance his investment returns.

Notable Quote:

"We’re able to make the numbers work. So more syndications. We have one right now in San Antonio. We plan on doing another one in the Dallas area."
— James Dard [35:22]

Dave Meyer

Dave shares his goals of continuing to acquire rental properties, particularly multifamily syndications in the Midwest, and supporting fellow investors in recognizing and seizing opportunities in the 2025 market. Additionally, he mentions an ambitious personal goal of completing his first flip in partnership with James Dard, marking a significant milestone in his investment journey.

Notable Quote:

"My goal is to successfully complete my first flip with James. It really all depends on James. I'm not doing anything."
— Dave Meyer [35:27]

Navigating Market Sentiments and Future Outlook

Dave Meyer addresses the current negative sentiment surrounding real estate investing, attributing it to unrealistic expectations set during the previous Goldilocks period. He advocates for a grounded approach, emphasizing that, despite changing market dynamics, real estate remains a robust avenue for building financial freedom. The guests concur, urging listeners to focus on long-term trends and foundational investment principles rather than short-term market fluctuations.

Notable Quote:

"I still think real estate fundamentals are great. I still think that the future is very bright."
— Dave Meyer [37:18]

Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, the hosts share personal aspirations beyond real estate, reinforcing the community's camaraderie and commitment to both personal and professional growth. Dave encourages listeners to engage with the BiggerPockets platform, participate in upcoming podcasts, and explore available resources to further their real estate investing journey.

Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for investors looking to navigate the 2025 housing market. By blending practical strategies with personal experiences and aspirations, Dave Meyer and his guests provide valuable insights aimed at empowering both new and seasoned investors to achieve financial independence through real estate.

Key Takeaways:

• Start Local: Utilize house hacking and owner-occupied loans to build a foundational real estate portfolio.
• Understand Active vs. Passive Investing: Align your investment strategy with your financial goals and risk tolerance.
• Leverage Tax Benefits: Maximize returns by strategically managing tax liabilities through property acquisitions.
• Consider Out-of-State Markets: Diversify investments by exploring affordable, high-cash-flow regions outside your primary market.
• Stay Educated and Practice: Continuously learn and analyze deals to build confidence and proficiency in real estate investing.

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This summary captures the essence of the "The 2025 Housing Market is Here! (What to Watch Starting NOW)" episode of the BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast, highlighting the critical discussions and expert advice shared by Dave Meyer and his fellow investors.

Transcript

[Henry Washington]

Foreign.

[Dave Meyer]

And welcome to the BiggerPockets podcast. We know all of you are probably.

[Kathy Fecke]

Here looking to start your year, whether.

[Dave Meyer]

Real estate investing or personally off right and today we got a brand new episode for you where we're talking about what to look forward to here in 2025. And from where I sit, where I'm looking at all the data in the day to day of real estate investing.

[Kathy Fecke]

I think there is a lot to.

[Dave Meyer]

Be excited for the upcoming year. And in today's episodes we're going to talk about specific strategies and some tactics that you can take advantage of as we head into a new year. For this episode I'm bringing on a couple of my friends and they are all fellow investors James Dard, Kathy Fecke and Henry Washington. You may know them as my co host from the on the Market podcast, but I thought it'd be fun to have them on to hear different perspectives from different successful investors who use different strategies, have different goals, and how each of them are going to approach this upcoming year. Before we get into that conversation though, I just wanted to quickly give you a bit of a heads up, an overview of some of the next few episodes because we have some super good shows planned for you that we've been working on for a couple of weeks and I want to let you know what's coming up on Friday.

[Kathy Fecke]

We're going to spend some time setting.

[Dave Meyer]

The scene for 2025 and I'm going to actually share with you my predictions about what's going to happen in in the housing market in the upcoming year and hopefully that will give you some information so that you can make informed decisions about how to get started this year or how to scale your portfolio. Then on Monday I have a really fun show planned for you all. I've been working on this for a while, but I've sort of been taking this sort of long term view about real estate investing, about financial independence, about where the entire economy and housing market has gone. And I'll just give you a preview that I feel super optimistic and super excited excited about the prospect of real estate investing going forward. And I'm going to spend the episode on Monday just sharing with you why we're going to get into some long term trends, we're going to talk about long term goals, we're going to talk about the realities on the ground. But I'm really hoping to share with.

[Kathy Fecke]

You a blueprint or a plan that.

[Dave Meyer]

I think pretty much anyone can follow to pursue financial independence using real estate, starting here in 2025 and going forward. So make sure to tune into that episode with that. Let's bring on James Henry and Kathy Henry. Let's start with you. If you're trying to build financial freedom over 10, 15 years, for now, what would you concentrate on today here in.

[Henry Washington]

2025 as a passive investor?

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah. Someone who's just, you know, they got a full time job, they're trying to move up their retirement, get financial independence 10 years from now.

[Henry Washington]

Yeah. A couple of strategies. First thing I would do is start with where I live. So if I could have house hack, I would probably do that. It's just the easiest way to get started in your backyard. So using some sort of homeowner occupied loan like an FHA or a conventional or a VA and moving into a one to four unit. And then, you know, obviously there's a lot of factors here, but let's say if it was just me and I was single, I'd definitely be trying to do that. If it was just me and I didn't have any kids with a wife, I would definitely be trying to do that. And if it was me and I had one or two kids, I would definitely try to do that. Because all of that, you can still live pretty comfortably. You can go get yourself a 3, 2, you know, even a 4, 2, 43 duplex on each side and live in it. And the amount of money you'd be able to put towards buying your next property by not having to pay your mortgage every month because somebody else is, is so much. Great. So one strategy is just do that for like two or three years in a row. If you bought a new multifamily using an owner occupied loan three years in a row, you're talking, you know, six to ten doors depending on how many units those properties have. And then you can just let those things sit for 30 years and you have a heck of a retirement supplemented without having to go do anything crazy that we talk about on this show all the time. You could just literally live in a multifamily for the next three to five years, make that sacrifice and you could be set once those things are paid off.

[Dave Meyer]

And honestly, it's not that big of a sacrifice.

[Henry Washington]

I've done it.

[Kathy Fecke]

Really?

[Dave Meyer]

Not that big a deal.

[James Dard]

Yeah.

[Dave Meyer]

When you consider outside, it is a very small price to pay.

[Unknown]

When did financial freedom not become a sacrifice?

[Henry Washington]

Right. Absolutely.

[Unknown]

You got to do some sacrificing to get there.

[James Dard]

Yeah.

[Dave Meyer]

What would you do, James? What would be your one thing you would focus on in 2025 if you're just getting Started.

[Unknown]

I mean, I like what Henry said, I mean just getting in the game.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

If you're brand new, you got to get in the game to get in the game. Owner occupied financing, you're getting a cheaper rate, you have less money down. There's different financing that's available to you. And I think we could see some inflationary period over the next 12, 24 months. And that means housing could also get more expensive. Rents could go up, rents could go up, there's everything could go up. Right. And the last thing you want is to get choked out by expenses every year and you just can't get savings in. Right. Like where the extra expense just prevents you to save. How you create a savings account is getting in the game. Owner occupied by the property, let appreciation create your new bank for you because it's expensive out there right now. And so I do think you should get into it as an active flipper though. Like I do think, you know, depending on your goals, like if you got to grow cash, you got to look at some more high cash flow operational things and you can still do that. Like owner occupied short term rentals, flipping, midterm rentals, those are things that require more work.

[Henry Washington]

Yeah, I mean you can owner occupied flip though too. I mean that's a great way to get started is just to do a live in flip because then you're not paying the capital gains. If you move into a house and it takes you two years to fix it up, you turn around and sell it. I mean you could turn around, sell it, make 50, 60, 70 grand tax free because you lived in it for two out of five years. Like the owner occupied is an amazing way to get started, passive or active.

[Dave Meyer]

I think the live in flip is the most underrated way to get started in real estate at stake.

[Unknown]

The live in flip changed my whole life. Tell us, I mean we are on what property number six. I mean my wife cut me off. Now I think I'm officially cut off. Oh man. I ran that high rev until the end and we landed where we needed to land. If I went for number seven, it's not going to be a tax savings, it's going to be half a loss of my wealth. But it's, there is a breaking point. But just buying, creating that tax free, moving again, moving again. I mean we talk about sacrifice. The living flip. The best thing in my opinion is don't be picky about where you're going to live. Buy the best possible deal. It's a two year thing. You stay there, you sell it you take that tax and then we rolled it every time that tax savings went right into the next property. Because you create that, you can go buy something that needs more work. Right. Because the stuff, you know, when you're an owner, occupied buyer to do the fix up work, you got to come up with your down payment and the cash out of pocket that makes it a struggle to do this. But by buying it, selling it, get the tax savings every time we were able to sell it, then go buy another property with 10% down, take the remaining savings, put it into our construction and then improve it again. And by doing that, you know, I mean we're talking real money. That's six times at a 500 grand tax free hit.

[James Dard]

Yeah. For people who don't know you have to live there for two years, you can rent it for three years after you leave. Yeah. And then when you sell it, if you're single, you get $250,000 of the increase in value tax free. If you're married, you get up to $500,000 tax free. And tax. It's maybe hard to imagine improving a property that increases in value by 500,000, but it's very doable, especially in high priced markets like California.

[Dave Meyer]

And you get residential owner occupied financing to buy the deal too. You could put less money down sometimes you could put 5, 10% down, you get a lower interest rate. There's so many reasons to do it. It's like for other people it's a lot of the benefits of house hacking, but it's just a big equity hit. Instead of sort of like the long term building, it sort of goes back to what we talked about, passive versus active.

[Henry Washington]

And I want to point something out because we're all talking about what we would do, but it's not just what we would do. Right. This is something that we all either did or actively do.

[James Dard]

Yeah.

[Henry Washington]

My second deal was a house hack and it changed my life. James is selling his last live in Flip right now. Dave, I know you lived in a house hack and Kathy's living in one right now.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah.

[Henry Washington]

This is so powerful that we all do it. We all have different investment strategies, but we all do this one. That has to tell you something that is so true.

[Dave Meyer]

It's this, this idea that, I mean, you know, I know rich dad, poor dad got a lot of people into this industry and that's great. But in that book they talk about how your primary home is not an asset. I think that's a huge mistake.

[James Dard]

I never bought into that one.

[Dave Meyer]

Huge mistake.

[Unknown]

That boils my blood when I hear worst piece of advice I've ever heard. Now it makes sometimes sense to rent over buy. I do think that in certain markets.

[Dave Meyer]

Yes. Yeah.

[Unknown]

But like the tax savings you can save on that, that it is absurd.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. I think for some people that mindset shift of like don't go buy your dream home. That might not be a good investment. That is true. But if you just blanket right off your primary residence as a way to.

[Kathy Fecke]

Build wealth, like that is crazy.

[Dave Meyer]

That is, it is such a good way to do it. Everyone does it. And I think especially if you're getting started in the next year like that to me is such a good way to get into the game.

[Unknown]

And I think getting started for next year the most important thing for anybody, you have to know debt. That's the biggest thing, what access to capital you have. So anybody's new go get pre qualified. Yes. The first strategy you do is find out how much money you can get, then create your plan. Everyone skips that. They're like, I want the deal. Michael, what kind of financing you get? Sure.

[Dave Meyer]

I, dude, I. It's the same thing. People are like, oh, I don't know how much I could lend. It's like literally there's loan officers. Their whole job is to tell you how much money you can borrow and they'll do it for free and they're eager to do it and they'll tell.

[James Dard]

You what you need to do to get there. Right. What you need to work on.

[Dave Meyer]

That's the easiest thing to do. Thank you for saying that, James. That is such a good point. I, I think that, you know, people get a lot really sort of intimidated by how much mortgage rates have gone and sort of they like think, oh no, I can't do it or I can't make it work. When they don't actually have an answer to specifically or personally what their situation is going to be, what their interest rate is going to be, what their LTV has to be. And if you don't know that, you really can't like you said, start looking at deals. Because you can't underwrite a deal without knowing what you're paying for your, your debt. Unless you're buying for cash, which is not very common. Okay, time for a quick word from our sponsors. But when we come back we will get into it about some of the realities of the current market and we'll talk about strategies that do and don't work. So stick around.

[Kathy Fecke]

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[Dave Meyer]

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[Kathy Fecke]

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[Dave Meyer]

Welcome back, investors. We're here talking about what we're excited.

[Kathy Fecke]

About here in 2025.

[Dave Meyer]

So let's jump back into it. All right. Well, this is great advice so far, but Kathy, I got to ask you now, now we've taken on some of the good ones. We're going to put you in the hot seat for your strategy for getting started in 2025.

[James Dard]

Yeah, the first thing is to give yourself an audit. You know, look at where you are in life. Are you just starting out? Are you looking for a career then and you really into real estate then make real estate your career that, like I said, there's so many ways to make it your career and any one of them is going to give you the information you need to be better at it. Like I said, if you just get a job as a property manager, think of all the things you're going to learn. If you become a real estate agent, think of all the things you're going to learn. A title agent, whatever. There are so many jobs in real estate construction that would help you if you're just starting out. And if you're just starting out on any career and you're not making a lot of money, then, you know, you might be able to do a few flips and replace your income. So it just, it just depends. Like do an audit and let's say you already have a career and you have money, you like your career, you just want to invest. Like we talked about, passive investing. Then you need to really set aside, like really study. That would be the next thing. Study how to do it because I'll give my niece who I adore, I'll use her as an example. She's a real estate agent, does amazing, really successful real estate agent. And she said to me the other day, I was making so much money and I spent it all. Why didn't somebody just tell me to invest. And I looked at her and said, do you even know who your auntie is? Freaking book on the topic. Okay, like, okay, don't blame anyone but yourself for not setting aside some money to invest. She's like, I would probably be retired now. If you're making money, you've got to at least put 10% aside to invest in whatever you're investing in. So one of the hardest things when you make money is that half of it, you get to this point in life where you're like, oh my gosh, I make all this money now. And then you go, I pay so much in tax, I don't even take that money home. I work so hard for it. So understanding the tax benefits too of investing. A doctor came over to our house the other day who lives nearby and I just assumed he made a bunch of money, but he has so many expenses that, you know, it's kind of hard to keep up and save. But his wife is a stay at home mom. And what I tried to explain to him is if you make your wife sort of the real estate investor and she takes care of all the investments and manages your future portfolio, you're going to get so many tax benefits, it's going to help you get there faster so that you know, if you're, if you have money already, then your next step is to learn to just study like, like crazy to understand the opportunities that are there for you.

[Dave Meyer]

Great. Yeah, I love it. Absolutely. Self educating. Learn this business that you want to get into. So many people want to go and rush to the fun part, which is buying deals or selling deals is even more fun because you, you, that's when you get the money. But you know, learning is going to set you up to have many acquisitions, many dispositions over the of your career.

[James Dard]

Yes.

[Dave Meyer]

All right, well, I have, I have two quick pieces of advice for people who want to get started. Number one is practice. We talked about learning and educating yourself, but actually put those things into practice and specifically talking about analyzing deals. Go out there and just start looking at as many deals as you can. Do what James said, go talk to a loan officer, do your life audit, figure that stuff out and then just get some practice in like everything you do, you have to do it poorly for a little while and you're going to get better at it. And luckily analyzing real estate deals, it's not actually really that hard. But if you learn how to do it, if you do it 20 times, if you do it 50 times, when you're actually ready to go Buy the deal, you're going to feel really confident in your numbers. It's going to help you actually pull the trigger. So that's my number one advice. If you're sitting here in January 2025, do everything we said and then just go practice. Learn how to analyze deals. You're going to get good at it pretty quickly, I promise you. A second thing I would say is don't sleep on out of state investing. I know this is controversial, but I actually think that in this sort of like new era of real estate investing where things are a little bit more expensive, that looking to affordable markets is a great way to get started.

[Kathy Fecke]

Yeah.

[Dave Meyer]

If you're in an expensive market, look at it live and flip. We just talked about how great it is. Look at owner occupied strategies. But if you want to be super passive, if you just want to pay a property manager to do stuff, I do this. Look at out of state markets where you can buy duplexes for 250 grand or 300 grand or 400 grand and get some cash flow. And is it going to retire you this year? No, it is not probably going to retire you this year, but if you project out rent growth for 10 years, you're going to be sitting pretty. And so just have that patience. Think about looking elsewhere if you don't live in one of these markets that's affordable. So those are my two pieces of advice.

[James Dard]

I just want to make a comment on what you said, Dave, because I think there's still so much confusion about active versus passive. So people need quick money. Right. They need money today to live on. They need cash flow today to cover their costs and to have extra to be able to invest. And then you have passive, which is not necessarily going to provide you anything today, but it will. It's for the future. It's like investing in the stock market. You're not getting cash flow from that, but you're looking at your future. So these two things get confused a lot and it's really important to identify which one it is.

[Henry Washington]

Yes.

[James Dard]

Are you actively trying to make money to pay your bills or are you buying something for 10, 20 years from now and as soon as you can get really clear on that strategy, then you'll know what to do. Yep. You know, because with a new investor it's like what, what are you trying to do? Are you trying to make money today? Because there's lots of ways to make money in real estate. You could be a real estate agent, you could be a loan broker, you could, you know, be A property manager. If you wanted to just get in and learn the business, you could be a flipper. You, you know, that's gonna, that's another step of being complicated. You're gonna need to borrow money and so forth. Let's say I just did a coaching call with somebody we all know and he was like, I want to make money from flipping. And then he realized I don't really like it. And I'm like, well, you know what? You're really good at what you do once you do the thing you do for the money to make today.

[Dave Meyer]

Exactly.

[James Dard]

And use that money to invest for the long term. Right?

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah. Total percent. I think he just broke James's heart when someone said that he didn't like flipping.

[Unknown]

But no, it's not, it is not for everybody.

[Dave Meyer]

I totally agree. And I think it's this, this funny thing because. Yeah, Kathy, you said it very well in my, in my book. And J. Scott came up with this, but he calls like one half of it like transactional income. You need to trade your time for money.

[James Dard]

Yes.

[Dave Meyer]

To live off of. Right. Like that's your transactional income side. Then you have your passive income side to, you know, build long term wealth. Create a, basically some annuities so that when you retire you have that cash flow coming in every single month. But they're not the same thing. And you can choose, you have the option to do both of them in real estate. Like Kathy just said, you can get your transactional short term income from real estate, but you don't have to. That is an optional piece. Like Henry and James have both chosen to do that. I choose not to do that. I do kind of work in real estate, but I actually work for a software and media company.

[James Dard]

I've had doctors who make a million dollars a year want to be flipping. It's like, no, dude, just what are you doing? You spent 10 years trying to be a doctor. Unless you hate it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Dave Meyer]

Right.

[James Dard]

You know, why would you want your new active income to be a totally different business? I, I don't know.

[Dave Meyer]

No, I, I agree. And I think the distinction is, it's not trivial. It's, it's actually quite important because what happens when you confuse these two types of income? It can be a little bit paralyzing, I think when you get into real estate or you want to get into real looking at deals today and say, hey, I'm only going to get, you know, a break even cash or a little bit better than break even cash flow. Like that's not 1% rule that's not a 10% cash on cash return. Well, if you're not using this money to fuel your immediate term needs, then who cares? You should be buying assets that are going to perform over the lifetime of your portfolio, which could be 10 years, it could be 20 years, it could be 30 years. But if that confusion I think prevents so many people from getting in. Like I personally bought a bunch of deals last year because I'm investing for 10 or 20 years from now and it's pretty easy for me to identify assets that I think are going to be great 20 years from now. If I was trying to replace my income next year, it would get a whole lot more complicated and I would have to do a whole bunch of extra work that frankly right now I'm not willing to do. So for everyone listening as we're starting a new year, think about these things and what you're trying to accomplish. And that really sort of sets the framework for you to build a buy box and to develop a strategy as we head into 2025.

[Unknown]

Well, and I think it's important to active versus passive. Like Kathy said, over five years they did well, that's the point of holding properties, is that long term appreciation. But then think about how you want to be an active or passive investor. You can be passive and still not have to wait five years. True, you could do hard money loans instead. There's so many different ways. Like you don't have to be a flipper to get involved in flipping. You can be the lender for flipping and make 10 to 12% on your money and 1 to 2 points on that loan. You can also invest with the flipper or you can invest in development. You can invest with, you know, someone like Kathy who does bigger transactions that puts a deal together where you can make that higher return. It's just about picking the asset class. But really it's also about what's your risk tolerance. That's the biggest thing people need to think about is the more money you try to make over 12 months, the higher risk is going to be 100%. Five year hold is going to be more stable. You're protecting your investments. And if you want to do hard money loans, it's a little bit riskier. You want to flip a house, it's going to be riskier. Developing is going to be riskier, but you got to make that choice yourself. And that's why it's really important for people to write down on a piece of paper where they want to be in 12 months, three years and five years based on where you want to be. Choose your risk.

[Dave Meyer]

Well, that's a good question. What are your goals for this year, Henry? I'll start with you, man.

[Henry Washington]

My goals for this year I kind of keep the same business goals each year. I like the make money. Right. I like the level of business that I'm at. So my goals for next year are we want to flip 20 properties this year. We did 18 when I totaled it up last week.

[Dave Meyer]

I did.

[Henry Washington]

So we, we did 18 in 2024. We want to do 20 to 25 in 2025. In terms of rental properties, we're scaling back. I've grown my portfolio to a point that I'm comfortable with. I'm going to. But I will only buy properties that are no brainers to buy in terms of location and cash flow. Cash flow in year one and two. Or I will only buy when my accountant says you need to buy X amount more so that you don't have to pay taxes on the income you've made everywhere else. So that's what's going to determine what I buy.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah, because so we were just talking about active versus passive and like we were sort of saying you could still buy at least I do buy long term rentals for the long term. But you're saying you're slowing down but you're in a unique position because you use your real estate as your short term income as well. So like how are you making that decision about what rentals to do and sort of focusing some of your portfolio and growth on long term and some of it on short term? Like how, how do you think that through and set those goals for the year?

[Henry Washington]

What I choose to to keep and monetize as a rental versus flipping really has a lot to do with how I find deals because I'm marketing for deals off market consistently. I am truly keeping the ones that make the most financial sen that I like the most. And so I've got about nine active projects going on right now. And one of those, only one of those I will keep as a rental. But the one I'm keeping as a rental is in an area that does really well with short term rentals. I'm buying it at a price point that I could rent it out at a long term rental and it will cash flow very well. I paid $45,000 for it and it's worth 275 all fixed up up pretty good spread. So I can rent that thing for 1800 bucks a month long term and make money. It's In a market where it would do well as a short term rental. So that will maximize the cash flow. Or I could turn around and flip it. And so the reason I like keeping that one as a rental is a, because of the price point that allows me to monetize it in multiple ways. So if something goes bad with plan A, I've got a plan B and plan C. The second reason I'm keeping that one as a rental is because I can monetize it as a short term rental and I bought it so well, so I can get maximum cash flow because I bought it so well. And I would much rather keep that asset because I can get maximum cash flow versus just selling it and taking the money and turning it into another property. And the third reason is just lifestyle in general. I would like to have a property, it's right by a lake and I can use it when I want to and take my kids there. And so that's kind of the benefit of marketing and finding your own deals. And then you can understand what are your criteria for wanting to keep a property. And you can keep the ones that makes the most sense to you. Like you could buy these same nine properties and you might not keep this one. It just, it may be different for you. So it's, it's just about understanding what you want in terms of a return and then what are your exits and then choosing the one that makes the most sense for your business and your family.

[Dave Meyer]

All right, we got to take one more quick break, but stick with us. We'll be right back.

[Kathy Fecke]

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[Dave Meyer]

Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. All right teams, what are your goals for 2025?

[Unknown]

So 2025, actually one of my biggest goals is to get my passive flipping business going in Arizona.

[Dave Meyer]

Oh cool. Nice.

[Unknown]

You know we landed here. I'm an operator up in Seattle. I don't want to operate in two states. I will maybe on a very small scale, but it's more about just meeting, building that network and providing Funding and financing so I can get this steamrolling down in the desert. So I'm going to be wet and dry. Those are the two spots.

[Dave Meyer]

Just for everyone to know is like James been an operator in Seattle, runs a big flipping rental business, does everything there. But you move to, to Arizona. And so what you're basically you're saying like you don't want to start a whole operation where you're doing the actual flips yourself in Arizona, but you want to sort of build a more passive business where you live outside of Phoenix, right? Or in Phoenix.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And it's the reason I want to do it more passive is I'm a firm believer if you're doing something well and it's working, don't just forget about it. Because I see this happen all the time. They're like, oh, I want to go do this now, I want to go do this now. But then they leave this thing that was a good income producing system behind. And so Seattle's busy for us. It is my backyard. I know it like the back of my hand. This is where I will always invest. As I made that plan, I'm like, I don't have time to operate both. So how do I do that is I got to partner up with operators down in Arizona. I'm still going to do what we do in Seattle. And my other goal is to also pick up some rental properties in Arizona because I'm a backyard investor. I've only bought in rental properties in Washington state and now I can diversify a little bit. Different type of market, different type of politics. I'm going to pick up some rental units there and I'm going to focus on smaller stuff. I like 2 to 10 because we buy a lot of 20 to 50 units in Seattle. I like to hedge against whatever our partnership's doing because it balances out my portfolio. So if we're buying 30 to 50, I'm going to buy smaller personally. And as a partnership, if we go to smaller, I'm going to buy bigger and that way it balances me out as an investor. But I'm really excited to kind of get this going down in Arizona and just to pick up some more rentals.

[Dave Meyer]

I totally agree. I think, I mean, well, I'll get to my goals later. But I actually think this year is a good year to buy rental properties. I know know the cash flow is not as good as it once was in year one, but I think there's a lot of long term trends that are pointing towards rental properties being a great Business as they've always been and I don't think they're going to get any cheaper. So I agree with you that rental properties are probably a good one. Kathy, what are your goals? You're observing. But you know, I know you're observing the market, but I'm sure you have some goals as well.

[James Dard]

Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean we, we're sticking with what we know, which is rental property, finding the hottest markets, helping other investors invest in those markets that we've been doing for 20 years regardless of what's going on. And anytime I veered from that, I kind of got myself in trouble. So just like James just said, like, we're sticking with what we know, which is getting ahead of the path of progress, getting in front of where the growth is and buying rental properties in those areas. So more of that. But also there was the IMN Single Family Rental conference just recently. I know Henry was there. One of the slides that they showed was this demand for build to rent still with 2025, 2026 being probably the highest demand and yet the lowest inventory for it because so many builders have kind of gotten wiped out with the, with higher interest rates. But with our team and the bank relationships that we have, we're able to make the numbers work. So more syndications. We have one right now in San Antonio. We plan on doing another one in the Dallas area. So we expect to do a few more build to rent syndications and also like I said, really keeping an eye on commercial real estate, multifamily, possibly industrial as those loans come due and we're able to negotiate some really good prices in the building side of our business. It's always only worked out when we could get the deal really cheap. Just, just like, you know, it's real estate. So when you find a distressed landowner or builder and you can kind of save them from the problem that they're having, you can make the numbers work. And that's what we've been doing for 15 years and think we'll have a lot of opportunity in 2025.

[Dave Meyer]

Awesome. Well, good luck. I, I agree with all those points. It sounds like a very good goals.

[James Dard]

And then personally, yeah, for sure. More rentals. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And if the Tax Cuts and Jobs act kind of gets renewed where you get the 100 bonus depreciation, I think I'll some short term rentals as well because those tax write offs are insane.

[Dave Meyer]

And I think there's a very good chance that's going to happen. Yeah, well, I, I'm thinking about my goals and I'm basically ignoring all of your advice where you're saying stick with what you know. Because I, as you might know, I am partnering with James and we're flipping a house and I am doing something I know literally nothing about. I have never flipped a house but luckily James is teaching me. So I feel like this is a good opportunity. So that is my one goal goal is to successfully complete my first flip with James. It really all depends on James. I'm not doing anything. So hopefully my goal is that just James continues to be good at what he does.

[James Dard]

Man, I would move to Seattle just to have that opportunity. That's awesome.

[Unknown]

Hey, demo just started. Dave, we are rolling.

[Dave Meyer]

That's awesome. Well, my other goals are sort of just to your point, Kathy, James, all of you have been saying this. It's just sort of sticking with my long term strategy which is just, just continuing to acquire rental properties. I'm hopefully going to buy, you know, five, eight more units somewhere in the Midwest. I like to do one multifamily syndication a year. That's sort of something I've been doing for the last few years. Because if you're in that business, you know, they usually have a five, seven year hold. You know, I've been doing this for five years now. So hopefully they'll start to sell. Maybe not this year, but in a couple of years they'll start to sell and pay off and that will become a more predictable source of income and liquidity for me. And then my other goal is to help people, real estate investors, recognize the opportunities that are here in 2025. I don't know if you guys see this, but I feel like there's a lot of negative sentiment around real estate investing industry right now.

[Kathy Fecke]

And I get it.

[Dave Meyer]

It is very, it is a very different world than where we were a couple of years ago. But from where I sit, and I have spent a lot of weeks doing this over the last few weeks just like looking at different asset classes, looking at the future of real estate, like I still think real estate fundamentals are great. I still think that the future is very bright. And I don't personally see any other asset class that can offer the same potential to build financial freedom as real estate. And as we were saying, it doesn't take two years, doesn't take four years unless you're starting with millions of dollars. But if you want to put 10 years into this business, like I still think you can get financial freedom just as well as you've always been able To. I just think people have these expectations that are sort of left over from this Goldilocks period of a few years ago that are unrealistic. And so my hope, like, on a personal level, outside of my own portfolio, is to help people see that this is. There's just huge opportunity here to get started in real estate, to build your portfolio, even if you have it. And I'm excited for it because I really believe it. And hopefully you guys can help me. Me. Help me work on that one goal.

[Henry Washington]

I'm all in for that.

[James Dard]

Absolutely.

[Dave Meyer]

All right, one last thing before we.

[Kathy Fecke]

Get out of here.

[Dave Meyer]

James, What's. What's the one thing outside of real estate that you're excited for in 2025?

[Unknown]

Like investing wise?

[Dave Meyer]

No, no, just in general, outside of real estate investing.

[Henry Washington]

He's like, cannot compute. Must make money.

[Unknown]

People have a lot of hobbies, and I always say my hobby is getting a deal done. That's like, what I love doing. But, you know, for 2025, one of my goals is to get a little bit more passive and to spend a little bit more time helping coaching.

[Dave Meyer]

Okay, you didn't answer the question. That has nothing to do with real estate. We're skipping.

[Unknown]

No coaching. My son on his baseball team. No, no. Real estate coaching. Baseball, sports. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Real life coaching.

[Dave Meyer]

Got him. Okay. What about you, Kathy? What's something you're looking for?

[James Dard]

That's awesome. My daughter is really into charity, and she put. She did this volunteer thing in Denver and Rich went and we. We won, you know, an auction. We paid for it, but a trip to Nepal, so. Yeah, yeah, with the. The people who put on the foundation. So part of it is going to the orphanage there and seeing what we donated to, and the other is like, Nepal. So that's exciting.

[Dave Meyer]

So cool. That's awesome. All right, see, James, there's a good outside. Let's take off. What about you, Henry?

[Henry Washington]

The thing I'm most looking forward to is in 2025, I celebrate 10 years married to Jessica. And so that actually happens next month, and we're going to take a cruise out of the country and just hang out with each other. And that's. I'm super excited about that. But two things I'm excited about that are slightly. Well, that are pretty much related to real estate is one BPCON 2025 is going to be insane. I cannot wait for that.

[James Dard]

Can't wait.

[Henry Washington]

Las Vegas.

[Dave Meyer]

If you guys don't know, Henry and I are planning to go for three weeks to Las Vegas.

[Unknown]

Oh, my God.

[Henry Washington]

It's gonna be insane. And then the other thing I'm super excited about in 2025 is buying a deal with you. Yeah. Buying a lake effect cash flow deal with Dave this year.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah.

[Henry Washington]

Going to the Midwest and eating sandwiches and buying lake effect cash flow deal. So I'm super excited about those.

[Dave Meyer]

Well, I am, too, but you kind of cheated. You talked about real estate stuff. But I like it. That's good.

[Henry Washington]

Yes.

[Dave Meyer]

This is going to be very fun. All right, well, my. My personal thing is, if you guys don't know, I lived in Europe for five years. I just moved back to the United States, and I'm excited to be back in the States to see my friends and my family and to be closer to all of you and just continue doing what I do and everything's good. I'm excited. All right, well, thank you all so much for joining us for this episode. This was a lot of fun. I hope you all had a wonderful New Year's, a wonderful holiday season, and are as excited as we all are about investing, building our portfolios, moving towards financial independence here in 2025. If you are on the train, which I hope you are, make sure to check out on the market. Make sure to check out the Bigger Pockets podcast. Make sure to check out out all of the assets that we have here at Biggerpockets. They all exist for you to help you achieve financial freedom through real estate. So come back to the podcast and join us every week as we all work together to achieve our financial goals. Thanks so much for listening to this episode and we'll see you soon.

[Kathy Fecke]

Thank you all for listening to the Biggerpockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K. Copywriting is by Calico, content and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.biggerpockets.com. the content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk. So use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. BiggerPockets, LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented this podcast.