The “Lazy” Person’s Guide to Retiring with Rentals (in a Decade!)

Summary

Podcast Summary: BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast

Episode: The “Lazy” Person’s Guide to Retiring with Rentals (in a Decade!)

Host: Dave Meyer
Guest: Dion McNeely
Date: November 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

Theme:
This episode features Dion McNeely, a real estate investor known for his unconventional, intentionally "lazy" approach to building wealth with rentals. Dion shares counterintuitive strategies that allowed him to retire within 12 years, growing from heavy debt and a modest income to earning over $20,000/month in rental cash flow. The focus is on minimizing effort, maximizing returns, and challenging standard real estate advice for those seeking financial freedom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dion’s Background and Unconventional Path

• Started Late, Overcame Hurdles: Began real estate at age 40 after losing his law enforcement job in 2008, burdened with $89,000 in debt and a low income of $17/hour as a CDL instructor.
• Mistakes & Learning: Made every possible beginner mistake, then pivoted to educate himself and began house hacking despite naysayers predicting market crashes in 2013, 2015, 2018, and 2020.
• Portfolio Snapshot: Over 12 years, grew to 18 rental units across 8 properties (mainly duplexes, a triplex, and a fourplex). Now enjoys $35,000/month gross income, with about $21,000 net cash flow after expenses.
• Dion’s Motivation: Rather than an empire, Dion simply wanted enough income to retire and provide financial security for his kids.

Quote:
"I was trying to be as lazy about my investing as possible." — Dion McNeely [01:42]

2. The Binder Strategy: Letting Tenants Raise Their Own Rents

• How it Works: Dion doesn’t directly raise rents. Instead, he presents tenants with market data in a three-ring binder—comparable rents, Section 8 rates, and local listings—then asks what they think is fair.
• Results: Tenants almost always suggest an increase that's reasonable, often higher than Dion would have chosen. This keeps tenants happy, turnover low, and rents in line with market without confrontation.

Quote:
"If I go in and say, 'I'm raising your rent $100,' I'm a jerk. But if I show the market data and ask, 'What do you think is fair?' they usually suggest a reasonable increase." — Dion [18:03]

3. “Dionisms” – Counterintuitive Real Estate Principles

3.1. Leases End in Winter — Not Summer ([22:01])

• Standard Advice: Most landlords end leases in summer to access a larger tenant pool.
• Dion’s View: Wants least turnover, so he ends leases in winter when fewer people are likely to move. This keeps tenants longer, fitting his “lazy” approach.

Quote:
"I didn't want it to be easy to find a tenant. I wanted low tenant turnover." — Dion [22:26]

3.2. Avoid Good School Districts ([24:46])

• Why? High property taxes and higher tenant turnover (families move for schools). Dion prefers class C neighborhoods for better rent-to-price ratios and more stable, long-term tenants.

Quote:
"Why would I invest in a good school district when my goal is low tenant turnover and better cash flow?" — Dion [25:00]

3.3. Don’t Diversify Outside Real Estate ([30:42])

• Reasoning: Inspired by Charlie Munger: "Pick one asset class and master it to go from poor to wealthy. Once you're wealthy, then diversify."
• In Practice: Dion owns no stocks, crypto, or retirement accounts—100% real estate.

3.4. No LLCs Without Partners ([34:07])

• Standard Practice: Many investors use LLCs for asset protection.
• Dion’s Take: All his properties are in his own name unless he has partners. He finds no extra tax benefit and prefers lower insurance, simpler loans, and better financing terms without LLCs.

4. Investing for Financial Freedom (Not Scale) ([39:06])

• Core Philosophy: Not chasing a big unit count; prefers the “right amount of cash flow from the least amount of units.”
• Multipliers: Built up income to 4x his living expenses before retiring, ensuring a margin of safety.
• Leverage: Avoids extracting equity via cash-out refis or HELOCs, keeping high cash flow and low risk.

Quote:
"My goal was never the most amount of units... I wanted personally the right amount of cash flow from the least amount of units." — Dion [09:02]

5. Favoring Blue States Over Red for Appreciation ([39:35])

• Why Blue States? Stricter building regulations and the threat of rent control limit supply and cause higher long-term appreciation.
• Rent Control: If imposed, Dion explains, it ironically enriches landlords (who push rents to the cap) and increases homelessness due to higher turnover/stricter screening.

Quote:
"One of the main reasons I like to invest in a state like Washington... it's the highest appreciating state for the last decade. Mostly because it's a blue state." — Dion [39:50]

6. Minimizing Value-Add and BRRRR ([43:58])

• Avoids Major Rehab: Dion prefers to buy rentals that need little work, with tenants in place, and rarely does BRRRRs.
• Time vs. Money: Even after earning $200k+ on a BRRRR, he'd rather have spent 10 months scuba diving than managing a rehab project.

Quote:
"It's absolutely not worth it. I'd rather have had 10 months scuba diving in Thailand... than 10 months managing a rental." — Dion [44:42]

7. Long-Term Mindset: 10 Years is Fast ([45:34])

• Reality Check: Real estate is a get-rich-quick scheme—but only if you realize 10 years is, in fact, quick compared to a standard 45-year career.
• Recommended Buffer: Wait until you’re earning 4x your living expenses in cash flow before retiring; “If you need $5,000 a month, get $20,000 before you retire.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tenants Raising Rents:
  "The magic question: 'What do you think would be fair?' Almost every time, the tenant comes back with a little more than split the difference." — Dion [18:03]
• On Portfolio Size:
  "I'm not even sure I want the 18 that I have now...I don't want a big portfolio." — Dion [39:06]
• On Diversification:
  "Pick one asset class and master it to go from poor to wealthy. Once you're wealthy, then diversify to protect your wealth." — Dion [30:42]
• On Value-Add:
  "I want right from the MLS. I want very little work. I'm not looking for value-add, I'm looking for time." — Dion [45:34]
• On Leases in Winter:
  "I didn't want it to be easy to find a tenant. I didn't even actually want to be good at it. What I wanted was low tenant turnover." — Dion [22:26]
• On Financial Freedom Timeline:
  "Real estate is a get-rich-quick scheme. You just have to understand that 10 years is quick." — Dion [45:34]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Dion introduces his story & the binder strategy: [02:29–06:41]
• Portfolio breakdown, cash flow numbers: [06:41–07:51]
• Why not grow bigger / Philosophy of “Small and Mighty”: [08:43–10:13]
• Binder strategy explained step-by-step: [17:01–21:00]
• Dionisms 1-3 (Tenants raise rent, winter leases, avoid school districts): [21:46–25:51]
• Diversification, tenant targeting, and asset class focus: [27:22–32:04]
• No LLCs rationale: [34:07–35:57]
• Appreciation in blue states vs. red, rent control: [39:35–43:58]
• Avoiding value-add, BRRRR, focus on time: [43:58–45:34]
• Retirement target & long-term mindset: [45:34–46:43]
• Closing reflections, personal philosophy: [47:52–48:03]

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Financial freedom with real estate doesn’t require massive scale, risky strategies, or sacrificing lifestyle.
• It pays to question conventional wisdom: from rent-raising, lease timing, property types, diversification, to how you manage legal and financial structures.
• Sustainable wealth is about steady, low-stress cash flow and making choices that serve your actual goals—not chasing FOMO or real estate “hustle culture.”
• The “lazy” approach is really smart system-building—minimizing turnover, optimizing for leverage and cash flow, and creating policies that work for both landlords and tenants.

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Final Word from Dion:

"In real estate or investing, there is no one right way, but there’s a one right way for the person watching." — Dion [48:03]

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Transcript

[A]

Hey, BiggerPockets community, it's Dave. Just dropping in to give you a heads up that this week we are putting some of Our most popular BiggerPockets podcast episodes back on the feed over this Thanksgiving week. Today we have a conversation I had with Dion McNeely back in February. Dion's been on the show before and is also one of our amazing keynote speakers at bpcon this past year. And I just love talking to him because he is ignores a lot of.

[B]

The conventional wisdom about real estate investing.

[A]

He's a real thought leader. He thinks for himself. And whether this episode is a refresher or you're hearing his Dionys for the.

[B]

First time, you're almost guaranteed to rethink.

[A]

Some of your own investing ideas after listening to this episode. Have a happy Thanksgiving and I'll see you back here with new episodes of the Bigger Pockets podcast next week.

[B]

Do not buy properties in a good school district. Have your leases end in the winter. Let your tenants pick their own rent. You think you've been following real estate best practices well, Today we'll explain why everything you thought you knew might be wrong. Hey friends, it's Dave Meyer.

[A]

Welcome to the BiggerPockets podcast where we.

[B]

Help you achieve financial freedom through real estate investing. Today's guest is Dion McNeely, an investor in the Tacoma Seattle area. And you may have heard Deion before on the Rookie show or BiggerPockets money podcast before. And he's pretty famous for developing the quote unquote binder strategy for raising rents. Dion started investing with a huge amount of debt and a low income. He used only the most basic strategies.

[A]

And says he tried to be as.

[B]

Lazy about his investing as possible. Today, fast forward, he's retired with more passive income than he can even spend so much.

[A]

So we're going to get into the.

[B]

Details of how he had so much success, even when he admittedly put as little work as possible into his portfolio. Here's me with Dion McNeely. Dion, welcome back to the Bigger Pockets podcast. Thanks for being here.

[C]

Howdy. I appreciate the invitation. I like to share my information on the real estate rookie podcast cause I tend to talk to those people who are just starting out. But this is the podcast that actually helped me reach financial freedom. So I'm excited anytime I get to come back here.

[B]

Absolutely. Well, as you said, you've been on the BiggerPockets network quite a few times. But for those who are maybe new listeners or just need a refresher, tell us a little bit about yourself.

[C]

So what I'M most known for is this thing called the binder strategy where I don't raise my rents, my tenants do, and we can cover that a little bit before we're done today. But I didn't start investing until I was 40. I got laid off from law enforcement because of the 2008 housing crash. Was a single parent with three kids. Found out about $89,000 in bad debt in my name. I didn't know existed until the divorce. Started teaching at a CDL school, making $17 an hour. So I had a lot of bad debt, not a lot of income, a lot of responsibilities and decided to try real estate. Started out really bad. Made every mistake I could think of. I think I was trying to make the full list of mistakes that you can. I tried to do it without a lease. I tried to rent to a friend. I did all of those mistakes, then finally decided to educate myself. Started house hacking in 2013 with a duplex when everyone was screaming don't buy because prices are higher than 2008, so it's going to crash. Got another one in 2015 when everybody was screaming the silver tsunami was about to hit, so prices were going to crash. Got another in 2018 when everybody said prices are high and interest rates are high because I was paying 7% interest rates that you can't possibly do it then. And during the pandemic in 2020, I house hacked my second one at fourplex and bought a triplex. Went when everyone was saying it was going to crash because of everything going on. In 2021 when forbearance was ending, I bought another duplex. And in 2022, I retired after 12 years of investing. And now my kids won't inherit a parent they have to take care of. Instead, they'll probably inherit millions as just an accidental byproduct of me trying to figure out how not to have to work. Unbelievable.

[B]

Well, it's a very cool story and I want to get into some more of this. Let's just start at 2008, just briefly, and then we'll move on to what you're doing today. But you lost your job. It sounded like you were in a tough situation. This wasn't a good time for real estate. So why did you choose to try it?

[C]

So, kind of an accidental problem. I owned a house and I couldn't sell the house. I was upside down. I owed more than it was worth. Interest rates had gone up, so I was stuck with the property. And I had some examples of people who had reached financial freedom. My brother has 10 paid off rentals and he retired about that time. I have a friend with 30 rentals but he'd been doing it for decades and they used strategies I just didn't have access to. Right. I was working full time. Raising the kids wasn't very handy. My brother would buy a place, do a full rehab and then pay off the HELOC that he used to buy it. I didn't have equity and deciding to do it was actually around that 20089 when I got laid off from law enforcement. It was a several year process to get my credit score fixed, get enough work history as a CDL instructor so that I'd be bankable. I moved from my house into an apartment and rented the house out so that I can get rental income on two years of tax returns to get around my bad debt to income ratio. And then when I bought that first duplex, moving from the apartment into the duplex. I've had a lot of friends and people that I meet say they couldn't do it because they have family. And I think my family was the motivating factor to do it, not the excuse not to.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think until you have that conversation with your family, you don't know if they're going to want to or not. My kids were actually excited. My son said, wait, we get to move into an apartment complex where there's a bunch of teenage girls? And my daughter said we get to move into a place where I'm the new girl. There was some TV show called New Girls so thanks Hollywood for that. Yeah. But they were excited about the moves and they didn't even realize it was financial decisions making us do this.

[B]

Oh, they were just pumped about it. That's great. It's a win win for everyone. Fast forward to today. How many units do you have? And you had talked about paying them off like what's your average debt on these properties?

[C]

So when I was in growth mode, I wanted to maintain about 70% loan to value so that I would gain the most levered appreciation, levered depreciation. And I had the security of that, that drug that comes that kills your dream, that paycheck that we all work for. And when I lost the security of that, I lowered my goal to 50% loan to value so that I wouldn't be as levered when I was retiring. And the current portfolio looks like this. I have 18 rental units. It's on eight properties. So it's mostly duplexes, a triplex and a fourplex. I'm house hacking A duplex. Something that most people think of house hacking for is they think it's the way you start in real estate. For me, it was the way I started retirement.

[B]

Totally.

[C]

I moved to an area I wanted to live in. I used to travel, and there's still somebody living on the property. I still don't have a housing expense, but the actual cash flow from the property, just a quick breakdown, is gross monthly cash flow from 18 units is 35,000. I have about 9,000amonth in mortgages going out, so that's principal interest, taxes and insurance. Used to be 8, but taxes and insurance went up. I set aside a little over 5,000amonth for repairs. So that's about 15% that I set aside for future costs, leaving me with about $21,000 a month that I'm trying figure out how to spend in retirement.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

That's unbelievable. That's a huge income. How does that. Can I just ask how that compares to what you were making before you were laid off in 2008?

[C]

So when my cash flow from rentals passed 2700amonth, that was more than I was making as a police accident.

[B]

Okay, so you're like 10x that or 8x that or something like that, right?

[C]

Yeah. So it's. It's significantly different. And that's why I said kind of sarcastically, trying to figure out how to spend it. That's the biggest challenge for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The not having money, so living frugally and then the dedication it took for a decade to reach financial freedom and to save every penny to invest for the next property. It's a really hard switch to flip in our brain.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

On. On how do I go to spending because I'm no longer saving for retirement. I don't pay a penny in taxes. I haven't paid taxes on rental income yet. I look forward to the day that I do that. I mean, I make so much money I had to give some to the government. But that leverage depreciation is amazing.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

Well, that's incredible. It's very cool. And I think that is. Honestly, hopefully everyone listening to this gets to this point. But when you do reach that level of financial independence, it is. It's tough to, like, realize that you can buy a decent car or, you know, that you can afford to go out to eat a couple times more. And it's not. It's. It's a weird, like, psychological shift that you have. It's not about the money in your bank account, but like you said, you sort of have to just adopt this frugal mindset and a reinvestment mindset, at least to me. Every dollar cash flow, you put it back into a new property. So my question is, why not buy more propert?

[C]

So I didn't invest to live a frugal life. If I had to be frugal, I probably would just have stayed working. My goal was to retire and live the life that I felt like living, which is traveling and scuba diving in many places as I want to.

[B]

Oh, cool.

[C]

And you guys have had Coach Carson on. He has a book out. Small and Mighty investor.

[B]

Love Chad.

[C]

Yeah, Chad is awesome and I really align with his. My goal was never the most amount of units or the most amount of cash flow or a big portfolio. What I wanted personally was the right amount of cash flow from the least amount of units. And it was a really simple math equation for me. It's I spend about $4,000 a month doing everything I want to do. So I multiplied that by four as a safety net. Right. In 2018 I reached that. From 2018 to 2022, I lived off of rental income and didn't touch anything from my job to make sure. It's like a litmus test. I don't need it. So I'd have four time multiplier cash flow above 16,000. I don't want more. One of the ways I grew is you have a choice of recycling cash flow or recycling equity capital. I've never done a home equity line of credit. I've never done a cash out refinance. I've never sold for a 1031. That's one of the reasons I have so much cash flow on so few units. Because I could have grown to a bigger portfolio with thinner margins. If I use the equity and I try to redefine equity for everybody that I meet from you have equity you can touch. That's what most people say. I say you have the ability to add debt to an existing asset. So not adding that debt is why I have so much cash flow on so few units.

[B]

That's great. I love this philosophy in general. Just showing that Dion you literally 8x your income and with just 18 units right on 8 properties. Which I say just. But that's a huge, very successful portfolio. It's just when you go on social media you hear people saying that they have dozens or thousands of units. But clearly Deanna is demonstrating to everyone that you don't need to have this massive ambition just for acquisition. But just by being diligent and being somewhat risk averse and just sort of sticking to the fundamentals and paying down your debt as much as possible, you can greatly increase your income. Even in today's day and age with just a relatively achievable number of units. It doesn't have to sound like this crazy number. I think for most people, even if you're just starting out, the idea of acquiring 8 units over 10 years seems reasonable. And for most people, it is actually reasonable. So super glad you said that. Also wanted to just reiterate something I've stolen from Chad. He talks about, like, the growth phase, and then he talks about sort of the quote, unquote, harvester phase, which you get to the end at your end of your career, which it sounds like what you're at, which is when you start paying down that debt. And that just want to underscore for everyone. There's kind of different strategies, different tactics that you use depending on where you are. When you're acquiring properties, maybe you do use more leverage, but when you're at the point Dion's at or where Chad is at, that's sort of when maybe you take risk off the table. You. You don't grow your equity as much as possible. You focus on cash flow because you want to go scuba diving like Di does, which is great. Well, thanks for sharing the update with us, Dan, and congrats on all your success. Super, super impressive. We do have to take a quick break, but when we come back, I want to shift gears and talk about some of the quote, unquote, Dionys, maybe these counterintuitive ideas that you have for your portfolio. We'll be right back.

[A]

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[B]

Welcome Back to the BiggerPockets podcast here with Dion McNeely. We caught up on his portfolio over the last couple of years, but now we're turning our attention to a bunch of different, somewhat counterintuitive ideas or principles that you use in your own investing. Dan, I'm super excited to hear about them.

[C]

So I think looking at things through fresh eyes is one of the most important things when it comes to investing. You can't go out and study what somebody else did and copy it. You have to take what somebody else did or look at what hundreds of other people did and then figure out with your resources, your timeline, and your goals what they're doing that would match your strategy and utilize a little bit from each one. And so some of the things I come up with that work for me seem to, I don't want to say upset. I get a reaction when I tell other investors, okay, the first one I go with is I don't raise my rents. I hear so many landlords go, I don't want to raise the rent and lose a good tenant. Well, if you don't raise the rent, you're going to lose a good asset. So what I did is I came up with the binder strategy, which is where my tenants ask me to raise the rent. So I'm not raising the rent, but my rent stays consistently growing just below market.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Without having to have high tenant turnover or upset tenants or lose a good tenant. And so that's been talked about here on BiggerPockets a few times. And so to me, that's my first counterintuitive one.

[B]

I have heard of this binder strategy through you, dm, but for those who aren't familiar, you got to make sense of this for us. Because you're saying that you're tenants essentially volunteer to pay more rent.

[D]

How.

[B]

How do you pull that off?

[C]

So I buy properties from the MLS with conventional loans. Right now, I don't do driving for dollars. No wholesaling, no creative anything. I'm a super lazy investor. I was working and raising kids, and so I just had to add a property every couple of years. And I didn't need a big stream of properties. I just need to find the right one every couple of years. I preferred to buy Them with tenants in place. And usually the tenants were neglected. Properties weren't taken care of very well. Rents were far behind. That's why they were selling. So I go to the tenants. Most landlords would want vacant. They would want to do a rehab and get market rents. Well, I didn't have the time or the funding to do a full rehab and carry the burn rate of a place empty for a few months. I wanted to buy it occupied. That meant plumbing was probably working, electric was probably working, not a lot of repairs needed done. And so I wouldn't do this right away because I didn't get to vet those tenants. I didn't get to run their credit score or know their work history or eviction history. So I'd want to wait two months to make sure they paid on time. They didn't call me for super trivial things. I didn't get noise complaints. But once I decided I wanted to keep the tenant. It's called the binder strategy because actually use a three ring binder.

[B]

You actually have a binder.

[C]

This is one I'll be doing soon. The COVID is going to be a picture of the property with the current Zillow or Redfin estimate of what the property's worth. So you tell the tenants, okay, here's the current value of the property. Your rent made sense to the previous owner, but my property taxes and insurance are going to be based on this and the tenant doesn't care. But I'm showing them. This is online, it's printed right from the Internet. You can google everything I'm going to talk about so you can verify what I'm going to say. The next page is a printout from Fair Market with what the rents are in the area for however many units the person is in. If they're in a two bedroom or three bedroom, this is what the government would pay me if a Section 8 tenant moved in. If you're by military installation, I'm by joint base Lewis McCord. You might have the basic allowance for housing printout to see what the military pays for housing. Then there will be a map with all of the rentals in the area and then several pages of rentals available currently in your area with the same number of bedrooms as the one the tenant is in. In this example the tenant is paying about 1400, I think it's 1460 of current rent. Area average is 2000 to 2100. So I've got, I'm going to print out some, some of the areas there. They're about $600 off as a landlord, if I go into the property and I say, I'm raising your rent $100, I'm a jerk. I get flamed on social media. I probably get an upset tenant. They probably start looking for other places. Maybe they move in with a friend or move in some. Something else. But if I go in and I go, you're paying 1460. Section eight will pay me for this area. 1987, I've got several examples of 2000 to 2100. And then I asked the magic question, what do you think would be fair? Almost every time so far, the tenant came back with a little more than split the difference. So in this case, it was. It went to 1760. So it was $300 increase. If I increase it a hundred dollars, that's terrible. And I have an unhappy tenant. If the Tenant asks for $300 and I agree, they're happy, but they're educated, they see what it would be if they moved. I've had a lot of times where the tenant suggests an amount and I say, that would be fair for me, but that's a bit much. How about we instead of 300, go up 250, bring it down a little from what they ask. So they actually walk away thinking, oh, I've saved money over what I suggested as my rent. Happy tenants don't trash your property and happy tenants don't leave. It's actually pretty rare that they'll move out.

[B]

That's right. Yeah. I mean, this is such a cool strategy. I love this idea. It really just speaks to the psychology of. You said, it's not really. So much of this is not even math. Right. Like you said, 100 bucks, people are going to get mad. But giving people agency and also just you treat them like adults, you're explaining to them your situation. And I think most people who are reasonable are going to look at that and say, yeah, I mean, like, I'm getting a good deal. If they pick a rent, they're still getting a good deal by your estimation. Right? You're getting what you need, Dion. They're happy and they're still getting in their mind, still a good deal. And you've given them some autonomy and sense of control over their own situation, which I would imagine goes a long way to having very happy tenants and high occupancy rates.

[C]

One of the strategies I really love is. Is from Michael Zuber. He was on the Bigger Pockets Money show, the One Rental at a Time community. He talks about getting to four rentals. If you get to four rentals, you'll find out if you want more. When I got to four, if I thought, if I raised the rent and I have a tenant turnover every time I talk to the tenant about the rent, if I have a tenant turnover, I don't think I would have wanted to. But coming up with the binder strategy and having such low tenant turnover, I was able to grow the portfolio. At no point when I was working did I think, oh, this is too much work, I don't want another rental. It takes me about two hours a month to manage all 18 units. I can easily add that to my, my workload when I had a job. But that's what Zuber said was get to four and then you'll know. When I got to four, I knew I needed a strategy that made it easier and to give me less tenant turnover. Because if, if it was a struggle, I don't even know if I would have kept the four.

[B]

All right, that is very, very interesting. And it's not counterintuitive. Actually, once you explain it to me, it makes a lot of sense, but it's not obvious. It's something that I think a lot of people would not see coming. So thanks for sharing that. What is it? What is your second Dionism?

[C]

I like my leases to end in the winter, and most landlords say I want my lease to end in the summer because it's easier to find a tenant.

[B]

Interesting. Because I've done the opposite. I have to admit, if I had a lease coming up when I'm on a new property in November, I'd let them either sign like a 6 month lease or an 18 month lease to try and get them in the summer. Because I've always had this belief that you have more demand in the summer. But are you saying kind of the.

[C]

Contrarian view here works more people move in the summer? If your goal is to make it easier to find a tenant, sure, have your lease in in the summer. My goal was to have the least amount of tenant turnover because I was working full time, raising three kids. I didn't want it to be easy to find a tenant. I didn't even actually want to be good at finding a tenant. What I wanted was low tenant turnover. Now if people move in the summer, that means less people move in the winter. Kids are in school. Interesting. It's harder because it's cold. So I've had very little tenant turnover because most of my leases, all but one right now, end in December and January.

[B]

That's awesome. Do you ever get a situation where people ask to extend to the summer. You know, they want to move out, but it's November and they're like, hey, can I extend this to May?

[C]

I haven't yet. So there's a couple of things I'll do with my leases because I go to every one of my tenants and I say, you should not be renting. This is the dumbest thing you do. You should be buying a duplex just like the one you're renting. You should live in one side, rent out the other. So I try to talk all of them into getting on the property ladder. Part of it is they're probably going to find my YouTube channel someday and I want them to know I'm transparent. I'm trying to get them on the property ladder. So I tell the tenants and I've had a few go, okay, I want to buy a house, but if I sign a lease, what do I do? And I say, well, look, I need a year long lease because it makes me bankable for the loan. So my lenders want to see that I have year long leases. But if you're looking to buy a property, how about we make your lease termination fee $50?

[B]

How about that?

[C]

So when I introduce you to an agent and I introduce you to my lender and you buy a place, hopefully. I've always wanted them to buy a duplex or something, but the three that have done it in this decade have always bought houses. So they terminate their lease anytime they want. So I'm helping them get on the property ladder. I have the lease that makes my lender happy. And I'm kind of aware there's a tenant turnover coming because they're buying a house if they find the one that they do. And then I've never had a lender come out and go, I don't like that your lease termination fee is so low. I don't even think I've ever met one that looked at that part. They just go, what are the dates on the lease? Okay, what's the amount? Great, that hits our DTI that we need.

[B]

Oh, that's cool.

[A]

Very cool.

[B]

I really like that. That's awesome. All right, so those are the first two Dionys. Just as to recap, it was tenants raise the rents, not Dion. And he prefers to end in the winter leases instead of in the summer. And just as a reminder, these are 10 principles, ideas, philosophies Dion has evolved over the course of his investing career that are a little bit counterintuitive to what the common narratives about real estate investing are so far. I like these two. Hit us with the third one.

[C]

I do not want to own a rental property in a good school district ever.

[A]

Really? Why?

[C]

So why is the school district good?

[B]

High property tax.

[C]

Because the property taxes are higher.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

Funding for the school district, My goal is not the biggest portfolio or the most cash flow. It's the right amount of cash flow from the least amount of units. And then there's kind of a sub goal of low tenant turnover. Why would I invest in a good school district when I'm aging out my tenants. Kid leaves middle school, you don't like the high school, you move. Kid graduates high school, goes to college, you move. I have tenants in places that were living there 26 years, I purchase it, they're there nine years later because they're not in a good school district. They didn't pick it because of the age of their kids or what they were going to get out of that local community based on schools. So I like the low property taxes, I like the low tenant turnover. It's counterintuitive. I also really like the rent to price ratio that comes from getting out of those class B and class A neighborhoods. So the class C neighborhoods tend to have the not quite as attractive school districts, which more lines up with my rent to price ratio.

[A]

Curious.

[B]

Dion, does that mean, are you still renting to families?

[C]

I have some. I have some families that I rent to, yes. I would never do anything discriminatory.

[B]

No, just curious, like who's attracted to these properties?

[C]

So this is a couple of forms of legal discrimination that I do. My goal is not to rent to families. Right. All the pet damage that I've ever had totaled in over a decade. It's 200. But the kid damage that I've had was tens of thousands. So I prefer not to rent to kids. But I can't use it as a determining factor of to rent to somebody or not. But if I don't invest in good school districts, I'm less likely to get families. And anytime I have repair in a bathroom, right. I won't go out and rip out all the bathtubs. But if I have a problem with the bathtub, I will take it out and put in a walk in shower. Having walk in showers means also less likely to rent to families. So I do have a few tenants that have kids. It tends to be where my problems and damages happen. Pipes that get completely 12 foot section of pipe clogged with Otter Pop trimmings from kids. It doesn't happen if you don't have kids. And that actually happened last year. So no, I don't discriminate illegally, but I do target my tenants. Kind of like one of my forms of diversifying. Another dionism is I'm 100% in real estate. I don't own one stock, I don't own any crypto and have any money in a retirement account. And so since I'm all in real estate, I have to diversify. And one of my forms of diversifying in real estate is I want about 1/3 military, 1/3 section 8, and 1/3 working or retired. And if you ran an ad that said military only or section 8 only, I'd get sued.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But if I run an ad on the base or if I send my listing to the housing authority and say this is the link to the place that becomes available on Tuesday, can you share it with your tenants or your clients? What type of tenant am I most likely to get? So I can control how I advertise, not what I advertise to avoid being sued. And I don't maintain a perfect ratio, but I want about a third of each. So I'm ready for a pandemic, an eviction moratorium, a stock market crash or prolonged government shutdown where it doesn't hit my entire portfolio.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

So you like military, I assume because it's recession resistant, very stable job. Same thing with retirement, I guess. You probably have people who are on fixed income, either relying on a pension or Social Security. And with Section 8, the government just guarantees the income. So you're basically looking for any sort of tenant who's not reliant on a. Basically a private sector job.

[C]

Correct, but diversified. I wouldn't want a portfolio of 100% military if there was a BRAC meeting and JBLM closed down base Realignment and Closure meeting. Or if the Section 8 program gets defunded or whatever could happen in the future, or gets a pause in payments. So about a third ratio makes me sleep like a baby.

[B]

That's interesting. Yeah, I like this one. I mostly invest in downtown areas in bigger cities. And so my primary tenants are what you would call dinks. Right. Double income, no kids, which usually pay high, but they turn over a lot for sure. Like these people move every year, every two years. That's just part of the game. Luckily I invest in places where you can usually do that without a vacancy. But it's definitely a sort of an opposite sort of strategy. I have bought in some solid school districts and I've always sort of used that as a strategy. Or I've Started using that as a strategy to avoid vacancy. But it sounds like you're taking the exact opposite, opposite approach. It's pretty interesting.

[C]

Yeah. So I've had tenants that have lost their job and never missed a day of rent. So if you're in a good school district, in a good area, and you have two dinks, high income. I have what I call dink wads. Dual income, no kids with a dog. Yeah, like three couples that fit that bill. And I like the class C rentals, because class B or A, the higher end, more luxury, higher rents. If somebody loses $150,000 a year job, it's kind of hard to replace it.

[B]

That's true.

[C]

And unemployment is a big hit to what they were making versus my police officer, my school teacher, my truck driver that's making 20 to $30 an hour loses their job. Unemployment covers their bills for the month or two. And getting a job that pays almost the same is, is not easy, but a lot easier than finding that $150,000 job replacement.

[B]

This makes a lot of sense. I think my general feeling is just trying to make sure that you're matching the right tenants to the right assets, like you're doing. You know what these types of people that you're trying to attract are looking for. You're not overbuying for those tenants. You're not under buying for those tenants. You found product market fit for the type of. Of portfolio that you want to build. And there's no right answer here. I think some people might do the opposite. But I like your approach. I think it's pretty interesting. All right, so you actually hit on another dionism. You said just a minute ago about not diversifying into other asset classes. It sounds like maybe this started because of necessity, just given your financial situation in 2008. Is that why? Or was there another motivation there?

[C]

So when I started educating myself, I found bigger pockets. I found rich dad, poor dad. But I also found a lot of talks from Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger. And I watched a couple of panel discussions. Warren Buffett would talk about diversifying. And then there's guys like Kevin O', Leary, Mr. Wonderful, that says no more than 20% in one asset class, no more than 5% in any one asset class. So they're big diversification cheerleaders. But Charlie Munger, who was Warren Buffett's partner for decades, actually one time said diversifying is the dumbest thing you can do. You're going to master three or four asset classes. He says pick one asset class and master it to go from poor to wealthy. Once you're wealthy, you can diversify to protect your wealth. But if you diversify on the path to becoming wealthy, you never will. And I looked at that and I thought, well, I don't understand stocks. I don't have a lot of money to invest. I can't house hack a stock. I'm not an entrepreneur in any way. I'm a W2 employee. I've been a marine, a cop, a truck driver, CDL instructor. Like creating a business, not my thing. But taking the money I make from a W2 job and putting it to work in something that takes two hours a month to manage, that I can handle. So I'm 100% focused in real estate. I diversified by having one Third Military, Section 8, and working to retired tenants. But I also diversified. The smaller my portfolio was, the more important this was. But I wanted my properties at least 10 miles apart and in Washington. That puts me in different counties or at least in different cities.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

So that if the base closes or the port goes on strike or the hospital, something happens, only one or two of my properties would be impacted. So I'm diversified by being spread out in one market like two counties in the beginning, but different types of tenants spread out. Net worth now is probably, and I count cost of selling, so paying taxes, paying the agent fees and everything. A little over 3 million, which is. Is a big number compared to amazing lot of debt, $17 an hour to having a positive net worth. I don't think I'm wealthy enough yet to need to diversify. I think a $10 million net worth, I'd probably start looking at. I'll probably buy some stocks or crypto or something. But I understand my asset class and I'm diversified in it well enough to be able to walk away from a job that had golden handcuffs at the end. Right. I had been demoted all the way down to president of the company. I had $2 million golden handcuffs. And when I walked away, I walked away from that and don't care because it's really weird with financial freedom once your portfolio reaches a certain point and it's a. I think it's a LeBron quote. But he said, when you don't have enough, money is the only thing. And once you have enough, money becomes just a thing. And it was just a thing at that point. So I'm not ready to diversify more yet. I could someday. And I think if you're just starting out, it's really important to focus on your asset class, whatever it Is it could be stocks, it could be crypto, it could be running a business, it could be real estate. But pick one and master it.

[B]

I totally agree with that. I do invest in the stock market quite a lot, but I didn't for probably the first nine years of my investing career until I was making significantly more from my W2 job than I was spending every month. And I put some of it towards real estate, but some of it towards investing in the stock market as well. All right, now we've done four. So we've talked about tenants raising their own rent, leases ending in the winter. Not good. School districts. Don't diversify. All of these are very, very counterintuitive. We've got six more to go. Give us one more.

[C]

So I don't know that we'll get to all 10 if we have time, but the one that gets the most controversial response is none of my properties are or ever will be in a llc.

[B]

Oh, really? Interesting. So you don't have any partners.

[C]

Exactly. If I had partners, I would have LLCs. I was going to buy with my friend Millennial Mike. We were looking at Gary, Indiana, buying a five plex together. We absolutely would have formed an llc, purchase that property together, ended up not getting the deal. But all my properties are in my own name. No llc. Long list of reasons why this is.

[B]

Such a big debate that we can't get into all of it today, but if you want to go, probably see the single most discussed topic on the Bigger Pockets forums. This is probably the biggest debate. I am the exact opposite to God. I own every single property I own in an llc. Just give me one major reason why you've never put an llc.

[C]

None of the benefits people expect. That would be the biggest reason. There are no tax benefits. I get every tax write off. You do.

[B]

That's correct.

[C]

Except I can't write off the cost of having an llc. The cost of paying my CPA for each LLC that they file on or rent.

[B]

That's a lot, right?

[C]

So the second one, if you're in California and your. Your real estate's in your own name, like my brother, you're not rent controlled.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

Put that in an llc, all of a sudden it's owned by an entity. Rent control.

[B]

Oh, I didn't realize that. That's really interesting. Okay, well, I. I've always done it just for the liability reasons, because in case someone sues me, I can isolate the assets in each llc. And I started investing with partners. And so I've kind of just like started doing it with llc and then it just kept going.

[C]

So if I could. Well, the last thing on this before we go to the next one. But if you have properties and you put them in LLCs and you continue to buy properties. Awesome. Yeah. My concern is always that new investor that doesn't even have a credit score or savings yet. That's thinking. I'm going to form an llc. I won't know how to name it, I won't know how to pay myself from it. I won't know how to separate my finances so it's not commingled. I won't know that it's more likely to get me sued. It's more it's going to make my insurance costs go up. It gets me about a half a point higher on my interest rates for my loans. It does. All these barriers, they don't even own a rental yet. That's who I'm always concerned with when they LLC debate.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. All right, we do have to take a quick break, but we'll hear five more Dionysms right after this.

[D]

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[B]

All right, we're back with DM McFeely. We've talked about five of his Dionysum. We don't, I don't think we're going to have time for all of them. So let's just, I think we've touched on a few here. So Dan, why don't you just name a couple and then we'll dive into one or two more as we have time.

[C]

Yeah, I think one that we've covered pretty well is I don't want a big portfolio. So many people when they start they, they want a thousand units or 500 units. I'm not even sure I want the 18 that I have now. The other one is I don't touch my equity. I've never done a heloc, never done a cash out refi, never sold for a 1031 yet. I might, but the ones that I think really matter. And I get this from Grant Cardone, the first one. It's why I prefer to invest in a blue state and not a Red state. Most landlords say I want to invest where it's landlord friendly and the landlord tenant laws lean towards the owner. And I'm the opposite.

[B]

I'm so curious about this because I think this is such a subjective thing. What state is better for real estate investors? And people treat it like this objective thing where there's just like a right answer. And I'll give you my opinion after this, but let's hear yours first.

[C]

You're 100, right? It depends on the person, the goals, the timeline, where you have trusted boots on the ground. Right. That's where you want to invest. But one of the one, one of the main reasons I like to invest in a state like Washington, which you can google this to verify, it's the highest appreciating state for the last decade. Yes, it is. Mostly because it's a blue state. They keep threatening rent control every year. It went into session last year, it didn't come out. And just because it was Talked about in 2024, my plan was not to do a rent increase. I do 5% every other year after the binder strategy. But since it was talked about and it was in session and it could happen, I went and did the binder with all my tenants. My rent roll across the board went up $3,300. So about $40,000 in profit last year. Just because rent control was talked about.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

And then in blue states, it's a long process for permits. It's expensive. The threat of rent control limits investors desire to build here. So there's less building, which means massive appreciation.

[B]

Absolutely, yeah. This is a supply and demand issue. Right. Like you see in a lot of more red states, permitting is more abundant. And again, there are pros and cons. This, this probably means housing is more affordable in those markets because there's greater housing supply. Like there are definitely trade offs here. But if you're looking at appreciation, blue states definitely have greater appreciation on average over the long run. If you look over 10, 20 years. Dion's absolutely right. I'm curious though, Dion, because you said about rent control, they went up last year, but what happens if rent control actually does get passed? Then what happens?

[C]

So I can make an entire video out of just that. It makes the landlord so stupid rich and it makes more tenants homeless.

[B]

Yeah, it's a really unfortunate idea.

[C]

It is unfortunate. My brother hasn't raised rent since 2006 on some of his tenants. And because they're talking about control, he's probably going to. But I would do 5% every other year. I even mentioned it. From 2013 to 2020, I did 5% every other year. Now Washington wants to cap it at 7% per year. And since I won't be able to do an adjustment for a black swan event, like a pandemic, like in insurance tripling because of fires in California, whatever is going to happen in the future, since I can't do big adjustments, I'm forced to do 7% per year. So I would get on a $2,000 rental, $100 more in two years versus I will now get $140 more per month per year. I'll triple my income, my profit because of rent control. It's what people don't understand. It's historically been proven every city where it happens, rents push up the maximum allowable amount every sing. And then landlords aren't stupid. So if you have a tenant who falls behind for whatever reason or they were behind when it kicked in, if three legal ways, you have 90 days to get out. I'm going to rehab the unit. You have 90 days to get out. I'm going to sell the unit. You have 90 days to get out. I'm going to move into the unit. So we make more people homeless in a rising rent situation, we make landlords richer. So last year I reached out to all the legislators and I said, hey, here's what happens if rent control goes in, I get richer, more tenants, rents go up. Criteria to screen for tenants goes up, you make more homeless. This year, the, the greed side of the landlord is saying, hey, maybe rent control is not a bad thing. I don't mind money. Yeah, money's not a bad thing. It limits more building, it'll cause more appreciation. I make more money off my rents. The human in me is like, no, I think I'm going to message all those legislators again and say what a bad idea this is.

[B]

Yeah, it has just been proven time and time and time again to have the opposite of the intended effect. So I, I, I'm with you. I think it's just very silly, but I think it is a really important point about this idea that like, oh, certain places are landlord friendly, certain places are tenant friendly. First of all, people look at those on a state level and it's not always the case. You should be looking at them at a metro or at least a local level. And then the other thing is this just depends on your strategy. If you are a house flipper, being in a place where there's constricted supply is probably going to be in your best benefit. But if you want to do build for rent, maybe being in a place where it's easier to get permits makes sense to you. It really just depends on your strategy. And I think Dion makes a great point of thinking critically and actually just aligning his own beliefs to the places where he's investing. All right Dion, I think we have time for one more. Give us your last Dionism for the day.

[C]

The last one. And this comes up so much in every format for educating yourself on real estate is the value add proposition for real estate. It could be the BRRRR method. It could be buying and adding RV pads. It could be anything where you want to buy and add to it. As the lazy investor this is one of my deonisms where I didn't want to do that. I, I I invested for 10 years without ever doing one rehab. I finally did a brrrr after I retired. It's my first and last one.

[B]

It's just too much work.

[C]

The money that can happen. So my brrrr made me about 300 000. I'll just break it down really quick. I bought a duplex for 400000 off the MLS. I put about so that the contractor said 30, I estimated 50. I set aside 80 and I spent $62,000 rehabbing.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

It's now worth about 790. Wow. So if I were to sell or do a cash out refinance I get all my money back plus about two hundred and something thousand dollars after expenses of refinancing or selling. So I made a couple hundred thousand dollars. It's absolutely not worth it took 10 months. I would rather had 10 months scuba diving in Thailand and Colombia than 10 months managing a rental. If I was working for full time I wouldn't have had the time to manage the rehab as much as I did. So it probably would have costed more and taken longer to do so in growth mode. So many people get excited about the BRRRR because they hear none of my money's in the thing and I'll make a couple hundred dollars a month and I can rinse and repeat at a few times. So my Dionism is I want right from the MLS. I want very little work. I want to spend $2,000 or less usually on the property. I want tenants in place. I'm not looking for value add. I'm looking for time. Because the magic trick is real estate is a get rich quick scheme. You just have to understand that 10 years is quick.

[B]

I love that. That's so good. I always say that's not a get rich quick scheme. And I always point I've done the math. I did this on a recent episode where I was talking about 10 to 15 years is a reasonable timeline. And you're right, it is quick. The average career in the United States is 45 years. So if you could do this in 10 to 15 years, that is absolutely, by any objective measure, quick. Except when you compare it to some of the unrealistic expectations that are sometimes peddled out there.

[C]

You're right. It's not the way to retire early. David Greenie actually mentioned one time. Yeah. He says if you need $5,000 a month to retire and you get to $5,000 a month in cash flow, you don't retire. And I agree with him totally, because that would be silly. Like, one eviction, one pandemic, one eviction, moratorium, whatever, and you're tanked. But if you need five and you get to 20, that's the place now. But it takes 10 years to get to that 20.

[B]

I don't know about you, but for me, I've been doing this for 15 years. It's gone fast. I don't know how you feel.

[C]

When I was 25, I think a couple of years felt like forever. But When I hit 40, I thought, and this is my. This is how I ended a lot of videos. You are going to be alive in five years. You should start investing. Like it.

[B]

Oh, totally. Yeah. That's smart. I like that. Well, Dion, this has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate it. And honestly, just. Just on a personal level, resonate with a lot of what you're saying. I. I really like these contrarian views and just shows that you're thinking a little bit outside the box and thinking for yourself and figuring out what works for you. And I know that when you're a new investor, that's not easy. You know, you should be listening to this podcast you listen to Dion. You should listen to people and try and educate yourself as much as possible. But as you grow as an investor, you're into your first deal, your second deal. Just think critically. Decide if the things that are common knowledge or common advice in this industry actually apply to you. And don't do them just because other people are telling you to do them. Do them because they actually are aligned with what you want. I think that is probably one of the hardest things to do in real estate, is like, figure out what you actually want. But, Dion, man, you're such a good example of that. You know exactly what you're trying to accomplish and you stick with it with really incredible like discipline and you manage to avoid that FOMO that I think captures a lot of people in this industry. So again, congrats on all your success and thanks so much for sharing your insights with us now.

[C]

Thank you very much. I really appreciate the opportunity to come on here and share some of these thoughts with people because in real estate or investing, there is no one right way, but there's a one right way for the person watching.

[B]

Absolutely right. Well said. Well, thank you so much for listening. If you think anyone you know who's interested in real estate who's buying rental properties could learn something from Dion, I bet everyone in real estate could make sure to share this episode with them. We'd really appreciate it. Thank you again for listening. We'll see you next time.

[A]

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[E]

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