You Could Have More Equity Than You Think! (How to Use It)

Summary

BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - Episode Summary Title: You Could Have More Equity Than You Think! (How to Use It)
Release Date: July 16, 2025
Hosts: Dave Meyer & James Dainard
Duration: Approximately 40 minutes

---

Introduction and Episode Overview

In this insightful episode of the BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast, host Dave Meyer welcomes seasoned real estate investor James Dainard to address pressing questions from the BiggerPockets community. The primary focus revolves around effectively leveraging unexpected property equity, navigating interior design choices during renovations, evaluating the viability of the 1% rule in today’s market, and exploring private money lending as a real estate investment strategy.

---

1. Leveraging Unexpected Property Appraisal (00:00 - 04:15)

Katie Enrichment's Scenario: Katie purchased a duplex below the asking price ($340k) with projected rents of $3,000/month and opted for a DSCR-based financing at 25% LTV. However, the property appraised higher than anticipated at $407k.

James Dainard’s Insights: James emphasizes the importance of using leverage wisely.

“You want to use leverage correctly... If I refinance, I just want it to break even” (02:17).

He advises against over-leveraging to ensure continued positive cash flow, cautioning against the pitfalls experienced during the 2008 financial crisis. Instead, James recommends:

• Refinancing Strategically: Only extract equity if it aligns with investment goals.
• Assessing Investment Plans: Determine if the additional funds will be used to acquire more properties or for other growth strategies.
• Maintaining Cash Flow: Avoid taking on excessive debt that could impair monthly returns.

Dave Meyer’s Agreement: Dave concurs, highlighting the flexibility of refinancing and utilizing lines of credit while maintaining financial prudence.

“You can get a line of credit against the property to go borrow against all this equity that you have sitting in this property” (03:49).

---

2. Navigating Interior Design in Renovations (07:14 - 12:55)

Tio Sam’s Challenge: As a contractor flipping a property, Tio seeks advice on selecting interior design elements like bathroom tiles, paint colors, and fixtures within a limited budget.

James Dainard’s Approach: James shares practical strategies to manage interior design without overspending:

• Utilize Comparable Listings:

  “Take the comps that you used or actives that are pending or in the same price point, go drive them with your broker and then make a spec list for it” (09:20).

• Leverage Design Resources:
  Collaborate with brokers who have design backgrounds or utilize in-house designers from flooring and tile suppliers to get free or affordable design services.

• Standardized Costing:
  Develop a standardized spreadsheet that outlines installation rates based on local market data.

  “We have a spreadsheet that really breaks down standardized install rates throughout our market” (25:51).

• Prioritize Cosmetic Upgrades:
  Focus on upgrades that enhance visual appeal without extensive structural changes, such as paint, millwork, and trim.

Dave Meyer’s Recap: Dave summarizes James’s advice, emphasizing the importance of aligning design quality with market expectations to remain competitive.

“You're probably going to tour similar houses, and you want to make sure that you're essentially at least matching the quality and probably something relatively similar in style” (11:39).

---

3. Exploring Private Money Lending as an Investment Strategy (12:55 - 22:11)

Jonathan’s Inquiry: Jonathan expresses interest in private lending as a way to diversify his investment portfolio, seeking guidance on initiating this venture.

James Dainard’s Recommendations: James outlines a step-by-step approach to starting in private money lending:

1. Legal Framework:
   Consult with securities and real estate attorneys to draft solid loan contracts that protect your investments.

   “Go talk to a securities attorney and a real estate attorney... make sure your documents are good” (14:04).

2. Build an Underwriting Team:
   Partner with local brokers to accurately assess property values and loan-to-value ratios, ensuring sound underwriting practices.

3. Target Experienced Operators:
   Focus on lending to seasoned investors or developers with a proven track record to mitigate risk.

   “Look for the bigger guys, because the first people you're going to find... they're going to be a lot newer” (17:14).

4. Understand Loan Positions:
   Prioritize first-position loans for lower risk and consider second-position loans only if adequately compensated for the increased risk.

Dave Meyer’s Summary: Dave reiterates the critical steps James provided, highlighting the necessity of proper documentation, reliable underwriting support, and focusing on experienced borrowers to ensure successful private lending endeavors.

“James said, first thing that you should do is talk to a relevant attorney... second thing James said was finding someone to help you underwrite that deal” (17:14).

Additional Insights: James cautions about the high tax implications associated with private money lending and underscores the need for thorough due diligence to prevent significant financial losses.

“Private money lending is great if you don't want to deal with tenant headaches because you actually make more on your return as far as cash flow goes. But it is high tax so you got to watch that too” (22:11).

---

4. Mastering Rehab Budgeting and Cost Estimation (22:11 - 33:04)

Deborah’s Dilemma: Deborah struggles with accurately estimating rehab costs for her flips, encountering unexpected expenses that erode her budgets and profits.

James Dainard’s Strategies: James provides a robust framework for budgeting rehab projects effectively:

• Develop Standardized Install Rates:
  Create spreadsheets with local cost benchmarks for various installations (e.g., $2.25/sqft for engineered hardwood).

• Categorize by Property Era:
  Adjust budget estimates based on the property’s age, recognizing that older homes typically incur higher renovation costs.

  “For a 1920s house, we run that at $110 a square foot... For 1950s, $80/sqft; 1970s, $70/sqft” (28:37).

• Include Contingencies:
  Always add a 10-15% contingency for unforeseen expenses, especially in projects outside of your experience.

• Limit Structural Changes:
  Avoid extensive modifications to floor plans to reduce permit complexities and unexpected costs.

  “The less manipulating you have to do of a footprint, the much more seamless your project is going to go” (30:08).

• Obtain Multiple Quotes:
  Secure at least three quotes from contractors for each project component to ensure competitive pricing and minimize variance.

Dave Meyer’s Reflection: Dave highlights the importance of meticulous budgeting and acknowledges the time investment required to obtain accurate cost estimates.

“It seems time consuming though, right?... but that's kind of the whole business, right? Like that's what you got to do it” (32:51).

James’s Additional Advice: James emphasizes building relationships with contractors who can offer competitive pricing and adapt to market conditions, thereby safeguarding against budget overruns.

“Always look for the gaps... that's what's going to work” (32:35).

---

5. Reevaluating the 1% Rule in Today’s Market (33:04 - 37:56)

Anthony’s Question: Anthony questions the relevance of the 1% rule—where a property's monthly rent should be at least 1% of its purchase price—in Arizona’s current real estate climate.

James Dainard’s Perspective: James suggests using the 1% rule as an initial screening tool rather than a strict requirement. He advocates for a deeper analysis of each property’s potential for appreciation and market-specific factors.

“It's about the 1% cash flow. But I'm going to really research more appreciation zoning upside on the property” (34:10).

Dave Meyer’s Analysis: Dave challenges the rigid application of the 1% rule, pointing out that the national average rent-to-price ratio is approximately 0.55, which is below the 1% benchmark. He advises investors to:

• Adapt to Market Conditions: Recognize that in high-cost areas like Phoenix or Seattle, the 1% rule may not be feasible without significant renovations or focusing on value-add strategies.

• Seek Alternative Metrics: Consider other investment metrics such as cash-on-cash return, capitalization rates, and potential for property appreciation.

“I think a lot of people get sort of anchored to this idea that 1%. They have to have 1%... unless you're maybe in the Midwest, Midwest, some parts of western New York” (35:05).

James’s Additional Insights: James underscores the importance of aligning investment strategies with current market dynamics and personal financial goals. He highlights that while the 1% rule served well in past investment climates, today's high-interest rates and property prices necessitate more flexible approaches.

“You have to pivot for this era... you have to build the plan around what you have today” (37:08).

---

Conclusion and Key Takeaways (37:56 - 40:00)

As the episode wraps up, both Dave and James reinforce the value of adapting investment strategies to current market conditions, the importance of thorough due diligence, and the benefits of leveraging community resources like BiggerPockets forums and meetups. James attributes his ability to answer investor questions to the lessons learned from his own past mistakes, emphasizing continuous learning and experience.

“The reason I can answer half these questions is because I already made the mistakes” (38:47).

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• James Dainard on Leveraging:
  “You want to use leverage correctly... If I refinance, I just want it to break even” (02:17).

• James Dainard on Interior Design:
  “Take the comps that you used or actives that are pending or in the same price point, go drive them with your broker and then make a spec list for it” (09:20).

• James Dainard on Private Lending:
  “Go talk to a securities attorney and a real estate attorney... make sure your documents are good” (14:04).

• James Dainard on Rehab Budgeting:
  “We have a spreadsheet that really breaks down standardized install rates throughout our market” (25:51).

• Dave Meyer on the 1% Rule:
  “I think a lot of people get sort of anchored to this idea that 1%. They have to have 1%... unless you're maybe in the Midwest, Midwest, some parts of western New York” (35:05).

---

Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a valuable resource for both novice and experienced real estate investors, offering practical advice on maximizing property equity, making informed renovation decisions, assessing investment strategies in varying markets, and exploring alternative income streams through private lending. James Dainard’s expert insights, combined with Dave Meyer’s facilitation, provide listeners with actionable strategies to navigate the complexities of today’s real estate landscape effectively.

For more in-depth discussions and personalized advice, listeners are encouraged to engage with the BiggerPockets community forums and utilize the platform's extensive resources.

Transcript

[Dave Meyer]

Did you know that it's possible for your property to appraise for even more than you expected? Well, it can. And if that happens, you're going to have some great options on your hand that you need to think through. Today we'll break down what to do if you find yourself in that fortunate scenario and much more. Everyone, Dave here. It's BiggerPockets Forum's question and answer time once again. Today I have James Daynard here with me, and we're going to tackle a few of the most burning questions we could find from investors and aspiring investors in the BiggerPockets community. James and I are going to talk about how to approach interior design if you're doing a renovation, whether the 1% rule is really, truly dead, how to pivot if your house is suddenly worth more than you expected, and a few other great topics. James, you ready to help the people?

[James Dainard]

This is my favorite type of episode. If anyone has met me at bpcon, they know I just sit there and we'll talk and answer questions all day long.

[Dave Meyer]

We picked some questions that are right up your alley, so I think you're going to like these ones. Should we jump in?

[James Dainard]

Let's jump in. Let's see what the needs are.

[Dave Meyer]

The first one comes from Katie Enrichment, who has a very good problem on her hands. She says, I found a duplex and negotiated with the seller to purchase under asking at 340. Awesome. I can rent it out for $3,000 a month total. And project positive cash flow plan was to use a dscr, which is a debt service coverage ratio. Loan to finance at 25%, loan to value. I just received the appraisal back and the house appraised much higher than I expected at 407. So she's got under contract 340 praised for 407. She asked for those of you that are more experienced, would you change your financing or business model based on this new information? James, what would you do? I'm sure this has happened to you in your career where you found yourself a great deal praise for over asking. Does it change your approach?

[James Dainard]

It does. You want to use leverage correctly, though. The beautiful thing about that for her is the bank will lend her more now and you can get your cash back. As investors, we use cash as our gunpowder. How do we go buy another deal? And so I think the question would be if I refinance out more, I don't want to take it past the cash flow. I want it to break even. Right?

[Dave Meyer]

You don't want to take out such A big loan just because you can. You don't want to take on so much debt that you're now not going to be earning a return every month.

[James Dainard]

Yeah, that's where everyone got in trouble in 2008. Everyone was doing that. Too much debt, too much debt. And then it was like, well, I can take this money and go make more with it. Which is true. But then once the wheels come off, you're in bad shape. And so I would say, you know, look at your monthly payment. Now talk to your mortgage professional. See how much can you pull out to where you still cash flow. Just a little bit. Then you know what that number is. You know, let's say you can get an extra 30 grand out of that loan. But the thing you want to think about as an investor is, do I have a plan for that money? Can I go get another duplex and buy that, or am I doing one for the year? If I'm going to do one for the year, I'm actually not going to lever up because why borrow money at a higher rate right now at 7 1/2% with a DSER, if not higher?

[Dave Meyer]

So in that case, you just sit on your equity, Right?

[James Dainard]

I just sit on my equity because it's like, don't take the money just because you can take it. If you can then reinvest it and make more than eight and a half percent, whatever the interest rate is. That's always my question. What's my interest rate today? Well, if I can borrow from a bank at 8% and refinance, get that money back out or have it, but then I can go invest it and lend money at 10 to 11% with hard money, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense after tax. And so if you have a purpose that will grow higher than your interest rate and you feel good about it, and then you can deploy it quickly, then I would look at doing it. If not, leave it alone. You don't need the money. Don't pay interest on money you don't need. Right?

[Dave Meyer]

Absolutely. I totally agree. And if you wind up not having something else lined up that you're excited to go buy, you can always refinance and take the equity out. You can get a line of credit against the property to go borrow against all this equity that you have sitting in this property. So you have options, and it's not like you have to stick with that forever. But I totally agree with James. There's no reason just because you can, you shouldn't do it because it could be to your actual detriment instead of as a benefit.

[James Dainard]

Yeah, and if I'm in growth phase where I'm like, I really want to take myself to the next level, get more rentals, really invest, you know, especially when I was a newer investor, I would always do it because it was like, all right, break even. I need, I need that money back to go buy another house. And so, you know, as long as you have a purpose, it works out all right.

[Dave Meyer]

Well, I knew you were the guy to answer this question. I'm glad I had you for support. We do have another question that's right up your alley, James. But first we have to take a quick break. We'll be right back. How many deals have you lost just because you didn't follow up in time? Or maybe you missed a call from a motivated seller while you were on another appointment? That's where Resimpli's new AI agents come in. They answer your calls, make follow up calls to leads, score motivation, and even coach your sales team automatically. It's like having a virtual team that works 247 so you never miss a deal again. Check it out at resimpli.com biggerpockets that's R E S I M P L I.com/biggerpockets want to invest in real estate but don't have the time or know the best local markets? Rent to Retirement has got you covered. Here's the deal. They've helped thousands of investors just like you find turnkey homes across the best US markets. And best of all, they do all the heavy lifting for you. With over 255 star ratings on bigger pockets, Rent to Retirement experts help you build strategies to retire early through real estate. And right now, Rent to Retirement offers some amazing incentives on turnkey new construction properties. Just for example, you can get up to 30% off new build prices or you can get 0% down. Loan options or interest rates available as low as 3.99%. So don't miss out. These deals will not last. Text REI to 33777 or visit biggerpockets.com retirement to start investing in top cash flow markets today. Let's talk about a real estate backed investment with major tax advantages. Car washes PBR's Opportunity Fund offers accredited investors access to a high margin, recession resistant industry with passive income tax efficiency and significant upside potential with operations in prime locations using best in class technology. Managed via a vertically integrated team, this fund is designed to deliver strong, stable returns backed by over $1 billion in assets under management PPR has provided passive returns to thousands of investors since 2007. Don't miss out. Learn more [e-mail] PPRCAR that's biggerpockets.com PPRCAR.

[C]

You became a real estate investor to reach financial freedom, not become a 24. 7 emergency hotline for your weekend guests who can't figure out how to use the coffee maker or lock the front door. If you're burnt out on short term rentals and want to earn more than long term rentals, Furnished Finder is your solution. Furnished Finder connects you with professionals looking for furnished stays of 30 days or more. Think business travelers, relocating families, traveling medical professionals, home insurance claims. People who see your property as a place to rest, not throw a party. No endless turnovers, no stress over seasonal vacancies, no booking fees or commissions for just $179 per year. Access reliable tenants, generate consistent rental income and keep all of it. Head to furnishedfinder.com with code BP15 for $15 off your first listing there's something.

[Dave Meyer]

Surprising a lot of investors don't realize landlords actually file more insurance claims than homeowners. But most of the big traditional insurance companies, they're just not set up to handle those claims quickly or easily. That's why so many real estate investors are switching to steadily they focus exclusively on landlords. So whether you got a single family rental, need a builder's risk policy for a brrrr or focusing on growing your portfolio, you get fast quotes, flexible coverage and protection for property damage, land liability and loss of rental income. It's a good idea to review your rates and coverages every year on your rentals, so go get a quote in [e-mail] landlordinsurance today steadily landlord Insurance for the Modern Investor welcome back to the Bigger Pockets podcast. I'm here with James Dainard answering your questions. James, our second question is another one Tailor made for you. We cherry picked it just for your expertise. It comes from Tio Sam in Washington D.C. who said, I recently purchased a property to fix and flip. I'm a contractor so the renovation aspect well within my expertise. However, I'm facing a challenge when it comes to choosing the interior design elements such as bathroom tiles, paint colors, fixtures, etc. I would love to hear how you approach this process. Are there any apps or tools that you find particularly helpful? Should I consider hiring a professional designer even though my budget is quite limited? How would you answer this question?

[James Dainard]

James Hiring a designer and cramming it into a budget that we're already tight on can be difficult. I used to do it way back in like 2009 because a designer would charge me like 900 bucks because it was so slow in the business. People would just want to work. Right. Find the gaps. Find when people have work.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah, like you said, a lot of gaps in 2009.

[James Dainard]

Yeah. And nowadays, like I remember met some designers out in Newport beach just to get there and it was like 30, $40,000, if not more.

[Dave Meyer]

Interior design can get expensive quick.

[James Dainard]

Yes. And they're very talented. It's a different thing. I do think they're worth every penny for what they put out, but we can't make it work for us as investors. And so, you know, the best thing that you can do and you know, is you guys, when you're selling a flip property, it's not. I'm a firm believer it's not about the discount broker that's going to cut your commission. It's going to be about finding the broker that you can get to do more things for you. And so first thing is, best way to get ideas. Take the comps that you used or actives that are pending or in the same price point, go drive them with your broker and then make a spec list for it. You just have to copy whatever is selling at that point. You know, print out the photos. Worst case scenario, if you have no design, print out the photos of the house that you're using for your value. What upgrades to that, what tile did they use, what color cabinets, what countertops? And just do what they do.

[Dave Meyer]

You know, if you walk into a house and you see a tile, how do you figure out what tile that is?

[James Dainard]

You have to look at the materials for that and for him being a contractor. But if you're not a contractor, you can. There's a lot of difference. It's important to go walk through these houses, a couple of them to go, okay, you know what kind of flooring is here? Is it LVP or is it engineered floors? Are the doors hollow or are they solid? You know, because the style is easy to copy. It's about picking the right, you know, material quality. And you have to touch it to see it. Now I have had look now my eyes so trained I can look at a picture online and go, that's LVP based on the shimmer of the floor or like how it lays out. But it just go walk through the projects and look through them. And then, you know, there is a lot of talented brokers throughout the whole US that will do Design suggestions.

[Dave Meyer]

Oh, really?

[James Dainard]

Based on you hiring them, huh? You know, our team at Heat and Anna Real Estate does it, but they're kind of trained that way. But many, many brokers, like in Arizona, every broker I've talked to, they all have a design background here. And they're like, oh, I can help you with this, and I can send you these colors because I'm like, what's on trend down here that's going to be different than the trend up in washing? And so, you know, those things will really work. And then one other tip is go to your flooring and tile suppliers. Many of them will have a designer that will throw it in if you do your order.

[Dave Meyer]

Oh, really?

[James Dainard]

And they'll lay the whole thing out. Just make sure you bring them your allowance sheet. That's the biggest thing. I will not pay more than this for this type of floor or in general. And you can get free design services with a lot of these big companies.

[Dave Meyer]

So just to recap, you basically start by doing your comps, right? Essentially copy what your competition is doing. Right. You say, what is selling at the price point that I'm trying to sell for? What is my business plan? What am I? What are my layouts like? And then copy the quality and style that is working. Because, you know, you need to be competitive with what buyers are going to be seeing elsewhere.

[James Dainard]

Right.

[Dave Meyer]

They're probably going to tour similar houses, and you want to make sure that you're essentially at least matching the quality and probably something relatively similar in style.

[James Dainard]

Yeah. And I will say a lot of buyers, you know, it depends on the market that you're in. I think Newport beach, the buyers really understand product and quality almost too much. But I will say I've sold a lot of houses where I'm like, this is a much nicer house. Like, I, you know, I have one right now where the quality of build is phenomenal. With what we started with, I would never put this stuff in this house if we flipped it. Buyers really look at the cosmetics more than anything else, and it's about picking the right design. They don't really know if it's a dollar tile or $3 tile and a lot of flips. And that's any. I mean, and that's in a lot of price points, especially under a couple million. You know, it's more about the design and look and how you pull that off. You don't always have to spend the most on your materials. You just got to implement it the right way.

[Dave Meyer]

Great. Well, very good advice here again, on Flipping houses from James Dard. Let's move on to our third question, which comes from a Bigger Pockets forum poster named Jonathan, who says, I've researched private lending and decided that's how I'd like to enter the real estate space. I have enough capital that I can make a few loans while still maintaining a healthy stock portfolio. How do I get the ball rolling? Do I begin by getting a solid contract from an attorney? Do I contact appraisers and title insurance agencies to find one that I could use since they only want to lend locally? How do I get my name out there and start my search for borrowers? I don't want to come across as not serious and waste time for agents or borrowers. James, you do some private lending, so tell us a little bit about your recommendations for getting started in what I think is a great business, really interesting, lucrative niche of real estate investing to be in.

[James Dainard]

Private money lending is one of my favorite investment engines that I do. You know, I buy rental properties for assets to grow. I use private money lending for my passive income. And honestly I keep probably 50% of my capital now in that because it, it does so well.

[Dave Meyer]

And just before you do that, James, let me just describe for people what that is because they might not know what private money lending is. But basically, at least for you, right, you're lending to flippers, to developers, people who need relatively short term loans to do a renovation or do a big project, sort of a shorter term loan at a higher interest rate, somewhere between 10 and 15%. You charge a couple points at the beginning of the loan and so you can make double digit cash on cash return relatively easily. That's what you would expect as a, as a hard money lender or as a private lender, right?

[James Dainard]

Yeah, depending on who the operator is, what position I'm in in the loan, I'll charge more and more interest. If I'm in a second position loan, I'm going to charge a lot more. If it's an experienced operator, I might charge more for security because there's risk with every type of deal. And that is the one thing about private money lending, it is great for passive income until it goes wrong. Yeah. And if it goes wrong, I've seen people lose millions of dollars in bad loans. Especially when I remember in 2008 when there was a lot of seconds and thirds floating around, we saw just flat lines on big companies. And so you have to be careful. And so how you protect yourself, the first thing that you want to do, if you want to become a Private money lender is to go talk to a securities attorney and a real estate attorney. Because the documents that you're going to create as your loan docs are what protects your money against that asset. You can take a template, but bring it to someone local in your market that really understands the lending laws, what you can do, what you can't do, and then have those documents tweaked and corrected. Make sure your documents are good. The second thing is don't worry about finding the loans yet. Build the team that can underwrite your loan correctly for you. In every market that I lend in, I have one broker. Because if I don't know that market that well, I have to understand, you know, if a flipper's sending me a package, I got to verify those numbers. And, and so you have to be able to look at the asset and find out where you are at as far as a loan to value, because the loan to value is what protects you on your money. You know, if something goes wrong as a lender, if we have to take it back, we want to know that we can sell that and either get our balance back or even maybe make some money. And so those are the first two people finding the operators. You know, there's some really cool different data providers out there. They will pull you flippers in your market that have been buying and selling and those you can also see how many deals that they've done. Those are the best operators to talk to because they've been in the market a while. They know what they're doing, and if something goes wrong, they know how to kind of mitigate that risk. And so I would start going that way. Look for the bigger guys, because the first people you're going to find, and there's nothing wrong with this, but they're going to be a lot newer. They need the money, they need to get in the game, and they're going to do whatever they can to get that money. And the operator is really what's going to protect you. And so we start with experience, you know, and I lend money to new investors all the time, but I can kind of look at the deal, I can look at the person, I can take their answers, I can gauge it a little bit better. So start with the experienced ones in your market reaching out to brokers that you see selling a lot of flips in your market. Call them, talk to them. Who are their clients? Who are their bigger clients? Do they need capital that helps the broker get a deal done? Those are great ways to get started.

[Dave Meyer]

Awesome.

[James Dainard]

Great.

[Dave Meyer]

So just to recap, James said, first thing that you should do is talk to a relevant attorney, either securities or real estate or both types of attorney, to make sure that you're getting your documents in a row and that you're properly protected. And I want to talk just in a minute about how to protect yourself and sort of the mechanisms for that. But the second thing James said was finding someone to help you underwrite that deal. James gave the example of working with a local agent who can help pull comps for you to understand what the true value of the property is today, what the after repair value is going to be after the work is all done to make sure that as a private lender, if the operator does not perform, you have to take that property back and you don't want to be paying full price for that. That's going to put you in a bad position. You should be able to retake that property at a 70% LTV or an 80% LTV or whatever it is you deem appropriate. So that was step number two. And then the third step was going to find operators. And James, I think rightfully recommended trying to focus at first on experienced operators who have a very high chance of performing before moving on to perhaps some of the riskier types of assets where you could maybe earn a stronger profit. But that's going to be just a more complicated procedure to get that right.

[James Dainard]

James, you nailed all three.

[Dave Meyer]

Good. But you mentioned something a little bit earlier about first seconds and thirds and sort of getting your ducks in a row, getting your documents in a row. So just so everyone knows, when you take out a loan against a property, there are different positions. So your first position loan, like if you go to buy a regular house, your mortgage is, is going to be a first position loan, which means that if you default on your loan, that bank has the first claim to the asset, right? And then if there's a second loan, like say you take out a second loan to pay for your down payment, that might be a second lien or a second position loan, and they can only get paid back once the first position is paid back and so forth. And so the first position loan usually has the lower interest rate, but, but has less risk, second position loan, higher interest rate, but higher risk, and so on. And you talked a little bit about how you adjust your own rates, James, based on whether you're first or second position. But as a new investor, would you even recommend people go into second position loans or should they try and do first position loans?

[James Dainard]

First position loans are the safest ones. That's where you want to be. And I would recommend that people go that way. The one issue with the first position loans a lot of times is some private money lenders that are lending 50 grand at a time or a hundred grand at a time, they don't have an enough to cover that whole loan.

[Dave Meyer]

First can be big.

[James Dainard]

Yeah, it's just, they just don't have the liquidity, but they want to keep their money working. And so, you know, if you can be in a first position loan, that's where you want to be. But if you can't, that's where a lot of people have to go into those seconds. And that's also where the biggest demand and need are from investors. Because they want more liquidity, they can get, you know, getting a first position hard money loan from an institutional company a lot easier. They need that gap funding in there. And so I just don't want to promise sunshine and bunnies that you're going to get all these loans because you have to have enough capital to cover too, for sure. And so then it comes down to if you have to go into a junior lien position, a second or third don't recommend thirds for people, you know, try to stay in a second position, you know, making sure you understand what that first position loan is. You need to know what the terms of that loan are. What if it balloon payments in three months and you're promising to give the guy a loan for 12 months. So, you know, to reduce the risk, you got to understand what's the terms, how long is it good for, what's the interest rate, what's the total loan balance out of that. And I like to know if it's on a construction loan because the loan balance could be less if the operator doesn't finish the project out. Yeah. And so I want to know all those things. And then also what is their default clause? Because some hard money lenders will charge 24% on the way out the door if they fall behind, which will, you know, you have to look at that. If that compounds on your balance, you can go from a 70% loan to value to 85% really fast.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah. All right, well, that's good advice. Thank you, James. I, you know, I've started dabbling a little bit into private money lending and it's a great, it's a great business. You can earn really solid returns. But I do them sort of in funds or I buy notes. I don't underwrite them myself, at least at this point in my career. But if you have the capital and you are looking for cash flow, I really recommend people learn more about it. There's actually a great Bigger Pockets book called Lend to Live. It teaches you all about the basics of private money lending and if you are looking for cash flow really, really good business to consider. I think it's something that a lot of people later in your investing career get into and just realize that it can be a really good business and definitely recommend you check it out.

[James Dainard]

Private money lending is great if you don't want to deal with tenant headaches because you actually make more on your return as far as cash flow goes. But it is high tax so you got to watch that too.

[Dave Meyer]

I knew these questions were right up your alley. You're just knocking these down one at a time. We got two more for you, but first we have to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Do you want to invest in Cash flowing rentals but don't have the time to manage the properties? Is your local market too competitive or expensive to invest in? Rent to Retirement offers new construction turnkey investment properties that you can buy with as little as 5% down and rates as low as 3.99%. Their team handles everything from financing, management, insurance and more so you can live where you want and invest in the markets that offer the best returns. Rent to Retirement has the best reputation in the industry with more five star reviews than any other company on the BiggerPockets website. To learn more, visit biggerpockets.com retirement or just text REI 233777 to start investing in the best markets today. Want to earn passive income every month without the hassle of property management? If you're an accredited or high net worth investor, PBR Capital Management offers a proven solution. Since 2007, PPR has helped nearly 2,000 investors earn over $100 million in consistent, predictable passive returns. Headquartered just outside Philadelphia, PPR manages a $1.1 billion diversified portfolio designed to provide steady income and long term growth. With decades of in house expertise, their team strategically mitigates risk to help investors achieve their financial goals. See how a PPR fund could fit into your portfolio? Visit biggerpockets.com PPR today that's biggerpockets.com PPR.

[C]

Long term rentals give you stability, but cash flow is disappearing. It's time to boost your returns without giving up peace of mind. Furnished Finder connects you with monthly tenants, traveling professionals, relocating families, remote workers, people who stay long, pay reliably and respect your space you get more income in total control with no booking fees, just better returns for $179 a year. Head to FurnishedFinder.com and use code BP15 to save $15 on your first listing.

[Dave Meyer]

If you own a short term rental, here's something worth not all landlord insurance policies are built for your kind of property, but that's where Steadily comes in. Steadily offers insurance designed specifically for short term rentals. They cover things like property damage, liability, loss of rental income, and even unexpected issues like bed bugs. Steadily only works with real estate investors so they understand the details that make short term rentals unique. And they've built coverages specifically for short term rentals. One investor pro tip I always like to give out is to review your rates and coverages every single year. So go get a quote in [e-mail] landlord insurance today steadily rental property insurance for the modern investor. We're back with the Bigger Pockets podcast. James Dainard is just crushing flipping and private lending questions right now. We got two more questions for him. So first question is from an investor named Deborah in Colorado. She says one of the trickiest parts of flipping houses for me has always been figuring out how to accurately estimate rehab cost. There's always a surprise that eats into the budget and profits, whether it's skyrocketing material prices or finding something unexpected during the demo. So I'm curious, how do you approach rehab budgeting? Are there any tools or strategies you swear by? And what's one mistake you tell someone new to avoid? There are a couple questions in there. Let's start with the first one here, James, which is just how do you approach rehab budgeting? That's a big question. But do you have like a framework you can help Debra and our audience use to understand how to approach this?

[James Dainard]

Yeah, this is probably the hardest thing to do as an investor is like really judging the budget. Right. Especially if you don't have a general contractor going out there. How we've done it and we kind of have two different tools that we built internally where we have a spreadsheet that really breaks down standardized install rates throughout our market because there's a lot of things that you can break down into install rates that are fairly simple and easy to get for information wise. Like for example, if I want to install engineered hardwoods, I know in my market it costs me $2.25 to $2.50 a square foot. From there, as long as I know what things are installed for, it's up to me as the investor to select the Right. Materials. And then that will give me the budgeting for my whole flooring throughout my. My project. And so what I always suggest is kind of start with the framework, is always find out what the cosmetic install rates are, like a cabinet box in a kitchen, $25, the simpler items, and then start working backwards into the mechanicals. But what we use a lot for budgeting, just for a simple fashion is we do a price per square foot, where we just allocate a price per square foot. For cosmetics. Like we know in Seattle, we can do a house. If it's just the cosmetics, that's paint, millwork, doors, trim, we can do that for about $20 a square foot.

[Dave Meyer]

That's not bad actually, even for Seattle.

[James Dainard]

And that's just though for millwork, paint, trim out, door handles. And so it's fairly affordable at that point. But then from there, we just kind of go with standard blocks, like a kitchen, $10,000. And we look at for the averages. And for new investors, the best thing you can do is go to your meetup groups, go to the bigger pockets forums, talk to investors in your area. Because my pricing is different than it is in California, or my pricing is different than it is in Ohio. And in costs and labor costs different. But talk to your local investors that have done projects, and many of them will even send over a quote to you if you ask. And you can start working a quote backwards on a price per square foot and then allocate it per year. Built eras, because the older the house, the more variance you're going to have.

[Dave Meyer]

Oh, interesting. So, like, if you got a quote for the same kind of work on a 1950s era house versus a 1920s era house, the 20s house is obviously going to be more expensive.

[James Dainard]

Yeah. So for us, like, when we run our price per square foot based on the averages of collected data from our projects or other investors, on a 1920s house, we run that at $110 a square foot to take it to studs and renovate the whole thing. For 1950s, we run at $80 a square foot. For 1970s, we actually run it at $70 a square foot. And the newer the house, the less major changes. And so that's what brings that square footage down. So we actually do it in blocks of era by about 20 years, give or take.

[Dave Meyer]

Are there other things that you would recommend for newbie flippers to avoid to reduce that variance? Because you said that earlier about variance, and I think that's super important.

[James Dainard]

Right.

[Dave Meyer]

Like you can come up with this general rule of thumb for how much it's going to cost per square foot. And you're probably relatively close. But there are all sorts of things, per the question that are going to throw that off. So the age of the house is one. Are there other things that perhaps new investors should avoid because it carries some risk that it's going to take you off your budget?

[James Dainard]

Yeah. And to avoid that variance, always add a contingency in. If it's a project I've never done before or it's a little bit newer for me, I throw a 10 to 15% contingency on. If it's a newer house that we've done a lot of, I throw a 5% contingency on and so always have that, that padding on there. That. That is probably the biggest thing. But the, the thing that crushes investors the most on their budgets is when they misjudge floor plans where, you know, they may be looking at a house that's a three bed, one bath and their comps a three bed, one bath. But the square footage is weird. The kitchen's in small spots, the bedrooms are weird size, they're unbalanced. The cost of the framing. And manipulating a building is what really blows up a budget. And I hear it all the time from investors. They'll be like, how did you do the house for 100 grand? I'm like, well, I only moved one wall. That's the key, you know. And so if you want to stay away from the headache projects, the less manipulating you have to do of a footprint, the much more seamless your project is going to go.

[Dave Meyer]

That's very good advice.

[James Dainard]

Yeah.

[Dave Meyer]

I'm learning a little bit from. About flipping from James and this seems to be a key thing that he is always hammering on is like, try and limit how much big structural work you have are doing. It limits your permits times and, and the cost and complexity of the project. So that's great advice. Any other last mistakes that you think our audience should avoid if they're new to flipping?

[James Dainard]

Don't just go off of what people said that should cost to renovate a house. Go off of the people that you know that you're working with pricing. Because, you know, I hear this all the time like, oh, well, you can do this for 80 grand. I'm like, well, my teams can do it for 120, so I have to go with 120, but if I went with the 80,000, I would be in deep trouble. And so one of the best things that a newer investor or any investor can do is act as if. Don't go out and say, hey, I'm a brand new investor. We can I talk to you about quoting house? Call a listing broker if it's sitting on market forever and it's a fixer and they want a tour. Ask if you can bring some contractors through to get some quotes to practice. Tell the contractors you bought the house or you're secured under contract. Get three quotes and then look at each quote and then go, how much does this cost to me on a per foot basis, like electrical? If it's 10 grand, you got a 2,000 square foot house, then you can go, okay, 10,000 divided by 2,000 square feet. This is my average price per square foot for electrical. And then you can put that by line item and make it very simple, but just always get the numbers for yourself. Then work it backwards.

[Dave Meyer]

Just out of curiosity, when you get quotes from three different subs on it, let's just stick with electrical. How big of a variance do you see sometimes? Like how far apart can some of.

[James Dainard]

The quotes be massively, like double or triple. And these are people I know too, so I know they're valued. The biggest mistake people make is they think that once they find a good electrician that they're going to stay. Their pricing is going to always stay the same. But for us as investors, we want to find the people with the gaps who does not have a lot of work right now. That's who's going to be competitive. I mean, my furnace guy, and I love the guy, he doubled his pricing on us over the last two years. We stopped using him. Now he's got gaps in his schedule. He called us up and he goes, okay, I can hit those numbers. And we say, well, now we found a cheaper guy and now he's in that guy's pricing because he has to be competitive. So always look for the gaps. If your electrician's pricing you high, call another electrician who does not have work going on. That's the key.

[Dave Meyer]

That's great. Yeah. And really good advice there to get as many quotes. It seems time consuming though, right? Because if you're just getting three quotes from electrician, then you need to do that for every sub that you're going to work. This could take a long time, but that's kind of the whole business, right? Like that's what you got to do it.

[James Dainard]

Yeah. And break it down to an hourly rate. If I'm going to spend 10 hours quoting a bunch of items out, but I can save $10,000, that's a thousand bucks an hour I'm saving. And so it's worth it every time to get that cost down.

[Dave Meyer]

All right, well, you're mowing these down quickly. We have one more for you, James. It comes from Anthony. And this one is an investor in Phoenix. That can really only be answered by someone like you currently looking at deals in Arizona, so hopefully you can help them out. Anthony says we are all aware of the 1% rule. That's a property's rent should be at least 1% of the purchase price, and that's monthly rent, just so everyone knows, should be 1% of the purchase price. This is a rule that came about in, you know, 2012, 2013, and Anthony is asking, does this hold true for Arizona? It just seems to me that buying at sub 1% is almost not worth it because the cash on cash return is much lower. I can make offers at the 1% rule, but these would often be at around 60% of asking price. I know deals like this get done all the time, but I have a little luck targeting sellers that are motivated enough. If not 1%, what metric do you use? I have a lot of thoughts about this, but you take this one first.

[James Dainard]

You know, I use like the 70% rule, the 1% rule. Those are just gauges for me to investigate more on that property.

[Dave Meyer]

Yeah.

[James Dainard]

You know, and if it hits above 1%, I'm going, okay. This is probably a pretty good cash flow deal. I need to really dig into. If it doesn't. But it's close, let's say it's hitting point 8% instead of one, it still tells me to dig in deeper because a lot of times with rental properties, it's not just about the 1% cash flow. Because when I buy a rental and I keep it, I'm keeping this for at least five to 10 years or at least trading it out. And so it gives me the gauge of cash flow. But I'm going to really research more appreciation zoning upside on the property and to see if I can really hit that accelerator. And if you're looking at deals where the 1% just. You're 60% of asking. You want to go into a different neighborhood. Yeah, because it's just not working. There's definitely more affordable neighborhoods, markets where you can still get really close, if not get it. And so if it's not working, you got to go out like 1%. Seattle is not going to work for me.

[Dave Meyer]

No, that's. No. No way. In a lot of expensive markets, it's really just not going to work.

[James Dainard]

No. But If I go and I want that, then I can go over to Eastern Washington where it's a lot more affordable and look at that. But there's gonna be less growth. And so take it as an underwriting tool, then look for the additional upside.

[Dave Meyer]

You know, I don't think the 1% rule is dead. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I think that at this point it does more harm than good. I think a lot of people get sort of anchored to this idea that 1%. They have to have 1%. They're only offering deals 1%. I, I'm not surprised sellers aren't taking your 60% of, of asking price offer. That's probably not going to happen unless it's a really mispriced house or it's a place that needs a lot of work, generally speaking. I'll just give you a little bit of context here. The rent average rent to price ratio right now in the United States is 0.55. So you're not even close to 1%. If you're in more expensive markets like Phoenix or Seattle, you're probably at 0.5 for, you know. So you have to remember that we're just in a different era of real estate investing and 1% rule deals. Unless you're in a lower growth kind of market or a property that needs a lot of work, you're probably not getting 1%. Unless you're maybe in the Midwest, Midwest, some parts of western New York. You know, Ashley care friend, she probably can find 1% rule. Sometimes if you're not, there are two options. One, you just either have to put more money down or you need to just accept a little bit lower cash flow. Or you need to do a renovation. Because I do think it is possible to hit the 1% rule. But you have to buy it and then bring up the rents through value add to get it even close to the 1% rule. Or at least that's what I'm saying. I don't know if you agree, James.

[James Dainard]

I do believe you have to earn it a little bit more. You know, every market has the seasons, right? We When I 2008, it was a season of leverage, right. It was about Levering Buy More. 2008-10, it was about buying very secure investments. And in being okay with making very few money on each deal too, it was just like it was an income, you know, and then the era of low rates.

[Dave Meyer]

Yep.

[James Dainard]

Go buy assets. They hit the 1% rule. Now this is why it's so important for Investors put their goals down. What are my goals? What assets will get me there with real estate, because you're just choosing real estate as your engine to get you there. There's no magical engine that's going to just get you to your goals. You have to prepare for it. And so buying fixers, you're always going to buy a lot deeper because cost of money is really high, construction's high, it's harder to control. And so when there's more risk and it's harder, there's way more opportunities. And so you have to buy more fixtures, you have to get more creative or you just have to do more work, like run a short term rental or a midterm rental and just operate at a little bit more work. But that doesn't mean that it's not a good engine. It just means you just have to pivot for this era. And who knows how long this era will be. Could just be three years, it could be one year, it could be 10 years. But you have to build the plan around what you have today.

[Dave Meyer]

That's very good advice and I totally agree. I think, you know, look at the time this 1% rule came into place. It was over 10 years ago. Investing conditions were completely different. They can be useful, but really just look at the best deal that you can find right now. Think critically. Listen to this podcast. Think about what deals make sense in today's day and age. And oftentimes, trying to maximize cash flow through the 1% rule is not the best. It's unless you're in a certain market, certain type of asset class, certain property class, it probably doesn't make that much sense. So I would encourage you to sort of just think a little bit more broadly or consider a different market. If getting a 1% rule deal is really important to you, that might be a different neighborhood in Phoenix or in Arizona or going completely out of state. All right, well, that's what we got for you all today. James, thank you so much for answering this questions for us. We really appreciate you being here.

[James Dainard]

Now we can go all day. I love this.

[Dave Meyer]

We only brought five for you. You just did them so efficiently, but it made a great episode, so thanks. Well, we'll have to have you back again to do another episode just like this in the near future.

[James Dainard]

Ready anytime. The important thing for listeners to know the reason I can answer half these questions is because I already made the mistakes.

[Dave Meyer]

Thank you for doing that on our behalf. We appreciate it.

[James Dainard]

Yeah.

[Dave Meyer]

And thank you all so much for listening. As a reminder, if you have your own real estate questions, head over to the BiggerPockets forums. It's at biggerpockets.com forums and you can post your own questions there. Get in depth, thoughtful answers from thousands of experienced investors or you can connect with like minded community members in your area. Thank you all so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Thank you all for listening to the Biggerpockets Real Estate Podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by E and K, copywriting is by Calico, content and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.biggerpockets.com. the content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk, so use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. BiggerPockets LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.