You’ve Bought a Few Rentals…Now What?

Summary

Podcast Summary: BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast

Episode: "You’ve Bought a Few Rentals…Now What?"

Host: Dave Meyer
Guest: Henry Washington
Release Date: November 12, 2025

---

Overview

In this episode, Dave Meyer and Henry Washington tackle a common but often unspoken inflection point: what should investors do after acquiring their first few rental properties? They discuss the reality that owning several rentals, although an achievement, rarely leads to immediate wealth or drastic life changes. They break down realistic timelines, strategies to scale up, the importance of having clear goals, and practical approaches to staying motivated on the long journey toward financial freedom. This candid conversation offers frameworks, mindsets, and actionable advice for investors stuck between “getting started” and “getting rich.”

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The “Now What?” Dilemma (00:00–03:27)

• Getting Started is Just the Beginning: Many investors hit a wall after building a small portfolio, wondering why their finances haven’t changed dramatically.
• Realization Shared by Many: Both Dave and Henry recall feeling stalled after initial deals.
  • “I remember one of them said, 'So when’s the money part happening?' And I was like, ‘Oh my God, it’s you too.’” — Henry [01:35]

The Timeline of Wealth and Why It’s Slow (02:47–03:27)

• Cash Flow Takes Time: It may take 5–7 years (aggressive investors) or 8–12 years (passive) to replace your income through rentals.
• Patience and Planning are Crucial: Replace idealized timelines with data-driven, realistic expectations.

Frameworks for Growth: The Three Buckets (03:33–05:52)

• Henry's Three Buckets:
  • Growth: Buying undervalued/distressed assets, usually reinvesting cash flow (painful but foundational).
  • Stabilization: Optimizing and restructuring your portfolio, shifting focus from acquiring to managing and optimizing performance.
  • Protection: Paying off properties to reach true “unlevered” cash flow and financial security.
• Active Income Remains Vital: Regardless of stage, you need active income for reinvestment.

“Across all three of those buckets, you need money to do these things.” — Henry [05:21]

Scaling Strategies and Paths (05:52–09:26)

• Flipping vs. Staying Employed:
  • Henry pursued flipping for active income; Dave stayed in his day job to maintain stability while building a portfolio.
  • Multi-Stream Income: Flipping, job, education/teaching all contributed to Henry’s path.
• Lifestyle and Financial Freedom: Both hosts caution against “premature lifestyle creep” and recommend honest assessments of income and living needs.
• Be Flexible: “I didn’t quit until I had to.” — Henry [09:02]

The Foundational Step: Defining & Re-Evaluating Your Goals (09:02–10:12)

• Set & Reassess: Start with goals, but re-evaluate after 1–5 deals as you learn more about your own investor profile, risk tolerance, and preferences.

“If you don’t really know, like, why you’re doing this and what you’re trying to accomplish, you’re going to struggle to scale.” — Dave [09:02]

Where Will Your Active Income Come From? (13:32–17:02)

• Necessity of Active Income Streams:
  • Flipping, brokerage, day job, education, or other means.
  • You don’t need to be a full-time real estate professional to succeed as a real estate investor.
• Choose What You Enjoy (and Can Sustain): Don’t become an agent or flipper just because it’s “the way” if you hate the daily work.

“If you can make a ton of money, and you’re miserable, probably not worth it.” — Dave [13:47]

Managing Risk and Expectations (17:02–19:21)

• Buffers for Expenses: Don’t expect to live off cash flow from day one. Big repairs eat through savings—realistic underwriting and reserves are essential.
• Active Income Eases Pressure: Active income allows you to ride out unpredictable months and setbacks more calmly.

Choosing a Scaling Strategy: Focus and Fit (18:41–22:45)

• Strategy Selection:
  • Should fit both your financial goals and your personal inclinations ("the warm fuzzies").
  • Know that all real estate strategies (single family, multifamily, commercial, etc.) can work; fit and sustainability trump “fastest” or trendiest.

“You need to pick a strategy that gives you what I call the warm fuzzies... For me, it’s small multifamily because I love that I can help people.” — Henry [19:34, 20:36]

• People > Profit When Possible: Single/small multifamily lets Henry help sellers and tenants in a meaningful way, making the business more fulfilling and sustainable.

“This is not a zero sum industry.” — Dave [22:49]

Horizontal vs. Vertical Scaling (24:46–27:16)

• Dave’s Two Models:
  • Horizontal: Same strategy, multiple markets (e.g., small multifamily in different cities).
  • Vertical: Multiple strategies, one “home” market (becoming a market expert).
• Don’t Change Too Much at Once:
  • Only change one major variable (strategy or market) at a time to avoid risk and overwhelm.

“Trying to change both at the same time to me is a big red flag.” — Dave [26:50]

Sustainable Progress: Pacing, Pausing, and Community (31:35–37:19)

• Sustainability Over Speed:
  • Set limits (e.g., Dave only spends 20 hours/month on real estate while working full-time).
  • Take breaks when needed—pausing growth is fine.
  • Prune your portfolio anytime if it gets overwhelming.
• Community Matters:
  • Find peers to relate to, celebrate wins, and share struggles.
  • Real estate is “lonely” if you’re a solo operator.

“The amount of hours Henry and I have just complained to each other about real estate investing… It really does matter.” — Dave [36:42]

Mindset for the Marathon (32:22–38:00)

• Your Exit is Optional:
  • Once you’ve built equity, know that you can restructure, pay off, or sell properties to simplify and enjoy real freedom.

“If I want out, I can get out... But there’s comfort in knowing that.” — Henry [34:18]

• Longevity Earns Wealth:
  • The longer you stay in the game, the greater your odds of success.
  • Make the journey sustainable and meaningful, not just profitable.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Delayed Gratification Reality:
  “It just takes a long time to replace your income with rental properties... five, seven years being aggressive, eight to twelve being more passive. Still a fantastic timeline, in my opinion. Still way better than anything else you can do with your time or money.” — Dave [02:47]

• On Defining Your Why:
  “If you don’t have a goal, you can’t create the strategy.” — Dave [09:02]

• On Sustainable Strategy:
  “Pick a strategy that gives you what I call the warm fuzzies.” — Henry [19:34]

• On Portfolio Pruning:
  “I’ve sold properties that are just a headache even if they're good because it's just stressing me out. And that's not why I got into this.” — Dave [34:35]

• On Taking Breaks:
  “It is totally fine to just stop for a while. If you just don't want to do a deal for a year, don't.” — Dave [36:01]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–03:27: The “Now What?” Stage—Getting Real About Post-Acquisition Blues
• 03:33–05:52: Henry’s “Three Buckets” Framework for Long-Term Investing
• 05:52–09:26: How Dave and Henry Approached Scaling and Income
• 09:02–10:12: The Importance of Setting and Re-Evaluating Goals
• 13:32–17:02: Active Income vs. Passive Income—The Role of Sustainable Cash Flow
• 18:41–22:45: Choosing Investing Strategies for Wealth and Well-being
• 24:46–27:16: Horizontal vs. Vertical Diversification Approaches
• 31:35–37:19: Mindset, Motivation, & Community—Staying in the Game
• 32:22–34:35: Knowing You Can Exit—Mental Freedom in Scaling
• 36:42: Importance of Community and Peer Support

---

Final Takeaways

• Post-acquisition is a crucial phase: Real wealth is slow and compounding; there are strategies to accelerate, but patience and planning win.
• Active income is vital: Flipping, employment, or other businesses can fund property acquisition and help weather the ups and downs.
• Set clear, evolving goals: Your “why” may shift — let your strategy shift with it.
• Find fulfillment and sustainability: Choose tactics (markets, asset classes) that fit your lifestyle and give “the warm fuzzies.”
• Build networks: Community turns real estate from a lonely pursuit to a shared journey.
• You’re not stuck: With patience, equity, and knowledge, you can always rearrange your portfolio or take a break.
• Longevity is power: Sustainable, enjoyable progress in real estate beats chasing every new trend.

---

For anyone who’s feeling stuck after their first deals: You’re not alone, the path to wealth is a winding one, and sustainability—both in strategy and in mindset—is the key.

Transcript

[A]

So you did it. You bought a property, maybe even two or three of them, and they're even cash flowing. You listened to us. Great job. Except your life hasn't changed. You're not getting rich. So where do you go from here? And when do you actually see the payoff in your bank account? Today we'll explain how to go from owning your first few properties to actually life changing wealth with real estate. Hey, everyone, I'm Dave Meyer, header of real estate investing at BiggerPockets. And today with me on the show is my friend Henry Washington. Henry, good to have you here. What's going on?

[B]

What's up, Dave? Glad to be here. This is a fun topic because I think we all have this realization at some point.

[A]

I know. I'm surprised it's taken us so long to make a show about this because this is probably maybe one of the most common questions or just dilemmas I think people have in real estate investing is like you get into the game, which is a huge accomplishment. It's probably the hardest part is just getting into the game. But then you kind of just start asking yourself what comes next? I don't know what I do now. Do I just keep doing the same thing that I've been doing? Do I try new strategies? Do I diversify? Do I double down? Do I quit my job? All of these are good questions and it's kind of hard. So I think that's what we're going to jump into today. I'll just start by asking, did you face this point in your investing career?

[B]

Yeah, it was more like a thought process that I was having, but like not voicing out loud. And then I remember I sat down to lunch with a couple of other investors who were doing more than me and had more property than me. And I remember one of them said, like, so when's the money part happening? And I was like, oh my God, it's you too.

[A]

It's hilarious.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. 100% had that thought process. And then it was, I don't know, there was almost like comfort in the discomfort when he said that. For sure. Yeah.

[A]

I think that's the money part is a big question. And you sort of run out of cash at some point. You start talking to other investors who are doing totally different things. You're like, should I be doing that? The thing that I've been doing, I.

[B]

Think what I realized is when you're doing real estate the way I was doing it and the way I still do it is I buy distressed, right? And so like, you Underwrite your properties to perform a certain way, and then you buy them not at that level. And it just takes time for you to get your properties from distress to performance. And remember, I got to 30 doors in like two years, and that's not a lot of time to get things performing optimally. So I had a. I bought a lot of pain, and then it was painful. Right.

[A]

And then the tab came through. It just takes a long time to replace your income with rental properties. We've talked about on the show all the time. Like, on average, I think if you're doing this consistently, doing it well, you can do it in five, seven years. That's like a realistic time flame. If you're being aggressive about it, if you're a little bit more passive about it, eight to 12 years. Still a fantastic timeline, in my opinion. Still way better than anything else you can do with your time or money. But that's sort of just the reality of it. And so I think there's this sort of goes to the point of the show, which is how do you scale, knowing that it sounds like you've said, hey, you know, rental income is great. That's for later.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. Now, how am I going to live? You know, what am I going to live off of? And for you, that decision was flipping.

[B]

Yeah. And that's really the realization that hit me is that, yes, I got into the business thinking I'll get enough properties to have enough cash flow to leave my job. And then the realization hit that, like, I can actually get to the financial freedom I'm truly looking for faster if I don't do that. And I use my experience in real estate to have another, more consistent flow of income. And I know that, like, flipping houses can't be super consistent, but it can be if you are buying deals consistently and you start systematizing it. So I know if I buy a deal, that's money and four to six months. Right. So you can plan that out. Right. You just need to be buying deals consistently throughout the year and buying enough. So it was a little more easy for me to plan out how much money I would need to make, how many deals I would need to do. And I started to also think about real estate in these three buckets. Those buckets, to me, are your growth bucket, which is typically where people are starting out, and then you've got a bucket of stabilization and then you got a bucket. Bucket of protection. When you're first starting out, you are buying assets, but they're not performing like you want them to Perform because you're buying them undervalued, typically. So you're growing. It takes money to grow, right? And so you're typically reinvesting some of that cash flow into growing more. And at some point you'll say, hey, I've got enough volume. I need to focus on making sure everything's stabilized and performing. And that's when you're taking the money that you were spending on growth and now you're spending that money on stabilization and making sure that your properties are performing. Maybe you're reshuffling some of your assets, selling some, paying off some other ones, right? And then there's this bucket of protection and that's where you're like, all right, I've got the properties, they're performing like I want to. Now I need to start getting as many of them paid off as possible so that you're actually getting to that real cash flow that you're looking for, that, that unlevered cash flow. And across all three of those buckets, you need money to do these things. And so I said, all right, we're, well, if I'm going to be growing, I need money. If I'm going to be stabilizing, I need money. And if I'm going to be paying off, I need money. Well, I'll flip houses to create my income so that I can operate in these three buckets at the right timeframe. So now I'm more operating in the stabilization in the payoff bucket, more so than the growth bucket.

[A]

I think that framework makes a lot of sense. I have followed a similar pattern where you buy some stuff that takes a year or two to get it up to performing, Some stuff you are reinvesting in to optimize it. Other stuff you're just trying to pay off. But I think your point about needing money for all of it is, is very true. That's just the reality of the situation. You've obviously chosen to scale by going full time into real estate and generate money from being a flipper to put into your long term portfolio. I faced basically the same situation, right? I said, hey, this, I've been doing this for a little while, just generating some solid cash flow. It is not enough for me to live off currently, nor is it going to support the lifestyle I desire to get to in the next couple years. Because I know people say, don't have lifestyle creep, but when you start at 23, you kind of want some lifestyle creep because that's not the life I wanted to live for the rest of my life. I'm sorry.

[B]

More importantly, that's probably not the lifestyle your wife wants you to live either.

[A]

No, no, absolutely not. She calls herself a visionary. I was living in my friend's grandma's basement when we left to save money. But yeah, so we needed to do a little better than that. But so I faced the same question. You know, I thought about being an agent, not really a flipper, but then ultimately decided the way I could generate the most income for myself. And my first principle of how I was going to scale was to stay in my job. I decided to abandon this idea that a lot of people have. And it's not wrong that a lot of people in this industry say, I want to quit my job in X years, I want to quit my job in three years or five years or seven years. I sort of took the opposite approach. I was like, I'm going to work as long as it takes to hit X dollars a month in real estate and have really passive income with a good DTI ratio. Like, I'm going to have 50% down on all of them. And once I do that, I'll stop working. How did that decision go for you? Like, why was your path to scaling through full time real estate instead of staying in your job because you had a good career too, or being an agent? Like, why flipping?

[B]

I had decided, okay, I know I need income. I can generate income by flipping houses, I can generate income by education and helping people and I can generate income by my day job. And so like, having those three or four streams of income was kind of super helpful to me. And so I kind of made a mindset shift. Kind of like you did a couple of years in to go, you know what, maybe I'll work a little longer than I was thinking about working because it'll help me grow faster and it'll help me initially get to the ultimate goal, which is to have enough income to just not have to do anything else if, if I don't want to, it will help me get there faster. And so I decided to go ahead and continue to work. And what happened was my employer at some point, even though they said they were okay with me investing on doing my thing on the side, decided that they weren't as okay with it and wanted me to give them more hours. And when I did the math on what I could make and what I was making outside of real estate versus what I was making at the job, it just didn't make any sense. It was costing me money at that point to have my job. And so that's when I made the shift, but I didn't quit until I had to.

[A]

I think we sort of skipped over what I would maybe say is the first step in figuring out a scaling plan, which is probably like setting your own goals, personal financial goals, figuring out what you want, whether you're one deal in, five deals in, 10 deals in. If you don't really know, like, why you're doing this and what you're trying to accomplish, you're going to struggle to scale. Because that's the whole premise of strategy, right? Strategy is a means of pursuing a goal. If you don't have a goal, you can't create the strategy.

[B]

I think you need to create goals when you start, and then I think you need to reevaluate those goals once you do one to five deals because you'll learn so much about yourself as an investor in those first few deals. And you may completely change your mind about exit strategies that you like. Or you may change your mind about how you're going to acquire your properties, or you may change your mind about, like, how many deals you think you want to do. You could get in and do one and you go, you know what? Totally, I don't want to do 10 deals a year, I want to do two. Because this was a lot. And some people make it in there and say, I wanted to do two and I love it. I need to go and do 10 a year. Right? Like, you just need to reevaluate those goals before you really, truly work on that scaling plan.

[A]

Running your real estate business doesn't have to feel like juggling five different tools. With Resimpli, you can pull motivated seller list. You can skip, trace them instantly for free and reach out with calls or texts, all from one streamlined platform. And the real magic AI agents that answer inbound calls. They follow up with prospects and even grade your conversations so you know where you stand. That means less time on busywork and more time closing deals. Start your free trial and lock in 50% off your first month at resimpli.com biggerpockets that's R E S I M P L I.com biggerpockets Some real estate sites tell you what's for sale. Propstream tells you what will be. Finding the right deals used to mean hours of guessing. Now Propstream gives you the data edge. Access to over 160 million properties, 165 plus filters, and 20 lead lists that spot motivated sellers before anyone else. Plus, with batch leads and batch dialer, you get data comps at a 99% accuracy rate and outreach. Reach in one seamless workflow. Use free skip tracing on selected plans. Reach out instantly and let AI Insights tell you which properties actually make sense. Try a free seven day trial and get 50 leads [e-mail] BP that's propstream.com BP so I tried explaining a sandwich lease to my insurance guy once and he just blinked at me like I made it up. And that's sort of the thing, right? Most insurance companies don't understand how we invest. You go vacant for a few weeks, you switch strategies, you hold stuff in an LLC and suddenly your coverage doesn'.

[B]

Fit.

[A]

That's why I recommend National Real Estate Insurance Group. They actually get real estate investors. Their coverage adjusts as your property changes and you get one monthly bill for everything. No matter how weird your portfolio is. You can check them [e-mail] bppod that's n r e I g.com bppod Want.

[C]

To invest in real estate but don't have the time or know the best local markets? Rent to Retirement has you covered. Here's the deal. They've helped thousands of investors just like you find turnkey homes across the best US Markets. And best of all, they do all the heavy lifting for you. With over 255 star reviews on bigger pockets, Rent to Retirement experts help you build strategies to retire early through real estate. And right now, Rent to Retirement offers some amazing incentives on turnkey new construction properties like up to $30,000 off new build prices, 0% down loan options 3.99% interest rates available. Don't miss out. These deals won't last. Text REI to 33777 or visit BiggerPockets to start investing in top cash flow markets today.

[D]

If you're serious about scaling your portfolio, you need two things good data and good deals. Lennar's Investor Marketplace gives you both. It's full of new rent ready homes in markets across the country. Each property comes with verified rental comps and local insights. You can see potential returns, compare markets and make offers all without leaving your desk. It's like finally having the homes, the data and the financing all in one place. Head to biggerpockets.com/lennar and see what's live right now. That's biggerpockets.com/l e n N A R.

[A]

I think for, I don't know, 95% of investors, this question that Henry and I have been discussing is the next thing. How are you going to make active income? Because you know I've talked about this in my book, but you got to have money to invest to generate passive income. You don't just get passive income out of nowhere. You need to invest money. And so for me, and it sounds like for you, it's like, how are you going to make the most money doing something I think you reasonably enjoy? You know, if you can make a ton of money and you're miserable, probably not worth it. But if you are in a situation like me where you can have a solid income and invest it, that's a perfectly fine approach. I think if you want to do what Henry's doing and go into flipping full time, that's a perfectly fine approach. If you want to become a real estate agent and you think you can make money doing that, that's a good approach. I think the thing people get caught up in is assuming and sort of getting confused about being in real estate full time and where they're getting their active income. Because some people like, should I become an agent so that I can be a passive investor? To me, those things are sort of unrelated, right? It's like if you want to be an agent because you think you'd be good at it, or you think you'd enjoy it, or you think you can make a lot of money doing it, great, that can help your investing career. And don't get me wrong, being an agent can help you find great deals and you'll learn the industry. But if you're going to hate being an agent, you absolutely do not need to be in real estate full time to be an investor. You could do what I do or what honestly the majority of Biggerpocket's community does, which is just keep working at the regular job and invest. But I think whatever you do, whichever decision you make, if you're trying to figure out if you're feeling stuck and where you're going to scale making this decision, at least for the next three years, you can always change it, but the next three or so years will really help solidify your next steps because you'll know where that money is going to come from, at what rate it's going to come in, and that will help you decide. I can afford X number of deals per year. I can afford this kind of property per year. If you don't have that basis of where the capital is coming from, it's just a guess. You're just kind of making it up. It's all hypothetical.

[B]

And like I said, the active income can be in real estate. But I think sometimes people confuse house flipping and being a landlord as these passive strategies, like house flipping is a job now, you can remove yourself from different parts of that job, right? You can have a project manager who manages your renovations, you can have a general contractor who does that for you, or you can do all those things yourself. But, like, trust me, if you take your finger off the pulse of any part of the business, whether you're doing it or somebody else is doing it, you will not make money.

[A]

I think the other thing about, I just wanted to add about active income is that it also takes away that pressure to be like, oh, my cash flow this month was only $100 instead of $300 a month. If you are quit your job prematurely or you are expecting to live off of your cash flow immediately, those times when expenses hit, when a radiator breaks, like, you're frustrated, you're stressed. If you know I'm making active income and that's what I'm living off, and I'm going to invest the excess money that I make into my portfolio, at least in my experience. I don't know about you, it takes a little bit of the pressure off. Like, it still stinks. Like, you don't want these huge expenses. But if you make 500 bucks a month versus $2,000 a month in a given month because of expenses, it softens the blow. Because you're like, I wasn't going to live off of that and I'll make it up in the next three months when I have less expenses.

[B]

Here's what I think people forget. Like when you underwrite a rental property, yes, you're underwriting it to cover your capital expenses. Because we know a roof is going to go bad at some point. We know an H Vac is going to go bad at some point, right? So you're like, well, you should be putting money away for capital expenses and you should be putting money away for maintenance. You're right, you should. But what happens if you underwrite a property to perform a certain way? You buy that property and then one month in your H Vac, you hadn't put away enough money on the side from your income coming in off that property to cover your H Vac, yet you've only put away a couple hundred dollars, but your H Vac is going to cost you six to eight grand. Where's that going to come from? So if you're truly going to live off of your cash flow, you need a lump sum of cash, or you need to be in a position where you have operated your portfolio for a couple of years. Long enough to have put away enough of your rental income into your maintenance or savings account so that when those expenses come up, you can cover them. Yeah, that happened to me. My second rental property, the H vac went out literally the week after I closed on it, and I had to come up with five grand. And it felt like all my cash flow got eaten up. It didn't. We underwrote it to cover that, but you're not really going to see that until year's end. Does that make sense?

[A]

I totally agree with that. So we've talked about in scaling, super common issue that everyone has, you know, starting with setting your goals. Super important. When do you want to stop working? What are you doing this for? How long is your time horizon? What level of risk are you going to take? Think about that stuff, then go on to how you're going to generate active income. Unless you have a boatload of cash. Then just go buy stuff for cash and stop listening to us.

[B]

Why are you here? Also be a private lender for me.

[A]

But if, if you're not one of those people, figure out your active income then. Though I think there's this question of strategy. Like, okay, I have my active income. What types of deals should I do? What kind of operation should I set up? I still have this. I'm going to just be honest. I'm always kind of thinking about this, but it's not that useful to always be imagining, oh, should I be a flipper? Should I be doing this? So, like, how do you make sense of that? How do you hone in on. Out of all the amazing different ways that you can scale a portfolio, like, how do you pick the one that's right for you?

[B]

I think when you're picking a strategy, you have to consider exactly what you said, your goals, and then the time frame in which you're trying to get to your goals, right? Because you need to pick a strategy that's going to monetarily help you get to that goal in the time frame that you choose. The cool part about real estate, guys, is that all of these real estate strategies make money. You can make money in single family, you can make money in multifamily, you can make money in commercial some, you can make money faster than others. And there's pros and there's cons to all of it, right? But how do you stray from like, hey, I should be going and doing this because I can make money faster. I should be going and do this. It's so cool. And so how. What keeps Me grounded is you need to pick a strategy that will monetarily help you get to your goals in the time frame you're trying to get to them. And then you also need to pick a strategy that gives you what I call the warm fuzzies. Right. So for me, I don't just invest in single and small multi family real estate because it makes me money. Yes, it makes me money. But I invest in single and small multifamily real estate because it gives me the warm fuzzies, because I love that single and small multifamily real estate allows me to help people more within my investing strategy. Because single and small multifamily real estate is more about the people.

[A]

It's personal. Yeah.

[B]

When you get into larger multifamily real estate, it's about a P and l. It's a business. Right. You have to. You have to decrease expenses, increase noi. Right. You're trying to make the property more profitable, and you've probably taken other people's money to do the deal. And so you now you have this obligation to those investors to get them the best return. And sometimes that's gonna be at the expense of people. Right. Companies do it all the time. I have to get my investors the best return. That means I need to lay off these people. Right. And so with single and small multifamily real estate, I can be flexible. Cause it's less risky. I can buy a house. I was on the phone with the seller this morning, and he was like, I need to sell this house. I need to get the cash, but I also need to find a place for my son to live. And I said, great, Well, I can buy the house. I can close in seven days. You can have your money, and we'll just let him live there for 90 days. I won't charge you a thing. I can do that. Does that cost me money? Yeah, it costs me a little bit of money. But I can do a couple of things. I can either underwrite that into the deal and pay less for it, or I can just eat that cost. It's only a few hundred bucks a month that I'm losing out on, but it gives that family the peace of mind and the. And the convenience that they need. And it makes me feel good that I'm able to do that for people.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Like, I can just be helpful to people more in this space because it's less risky and it's a more people focused niche. It makes me feel good. And so when I see a new shiny object in real estate, you know, right now, people are loving RV parks. You know, two years ago it was Airbnbs. And you know, there's always going to be a shiny new thing. And I don't stray to those shiny new things because typically they don't have the same warm, fuzzy feeling that I get from what I do. And so I can stay focused. I know I'm going to hit my financial goals. I know that what I'm doing has an impact on other people, and that helps me feel good, and that keeps me going when things get hard. Because every investing strategy you try is gonna get hard at some point. And it's so easy to give up when things get harder to pivot to something else. When things get hard. But when you're doing it for reasons beyond just the money, you won't necessarily be looking to just get out of a strategy because it's harder. You'll be looking about. Well, how do I figure out how to make this strategy work in the time that I'm in? Because I'm doing it for more than just money. But that's. That's me.

[A]

That's how I love that. No, I think it's an amazing way to think about it and really commendable to one look for mutual benefit. I think this is just such an important part of being a real estate investor is finding ways. Yeah. To earn a return. This is your business. You, you know, you deserve to earn a profit for the effort that you're putting into it. But if you're doing the business right, you should be able to do it in a way where you're also helping the sellers that you work with, the tenants that you have, the agents, the contractors, everyone in the whole ecosystem can benefit. This is not a zero sum industry. And so I think just thinking about it from that perspective is awesome and should be the way that everyone in the biggerpockets community is thinking about how they're approaching real estate. And the second thing is true, is like, you have to like what you're doing. Otherwise all these people, you know, you get into this industry rightfully. I think many people do, because they want to quit your job. But if you start up going and doing real estate deals that you don't like, you're going to want to quit that too. So what's the point of being in real estate if you're just going to hate it and want to quit it anyway? So finding something that is personally fulfilling to you, like, you know, I, I am dabbling in flipping. It's not something I think I'll ever love. But like when I see you do it or I see James Dana do it, like you guys just like really enjoy it. Like it's, it's cool to see people do that. There are people who are way, way better short term rental operators than I am, who are really good and care a lot about hospitality and guest experience. And that's super cool. And I think that's a great way to start filtering down. All the types of deals you can do in real estate is just what do you like, what are you attracted to? And maybe you do need to do a couple of those deals to see which ones you like. I did a short term rental. I was like, I'm never going to do this again. I still have it. But it was so much work. I was like, this is just not worth it to me. And I learned, I think that's a great sort of framework to look at scaling. I have one that I often advise people on because I guess people often ask me like, oh, should I go into a lot of different markets? Because I'm always talking about markets and so people are asking me that question a lot. Or you know, I've done long term rentals. Should I try flipping? I'll say two things about this. First, you don't have to. There is nothing wrong with just sticking with what you're good at. And although I have deviated at certain points in my career, I've kind of come back to just investing in the same kind of stuff. And even though I do a lot of passive investing now I do passive investing in residential real estate. I don't do it in retail or self storage or industrial or warehouses because it's the thing. I know it's. I don't want to learn anything new. Yeah, I'm too old for that. No, I know. I just, I'm sticking with what I know because I feel like I'm good at it. And there's nothing wrong with that. But if you are going to expand and diversify, which is also not wrong, I recommend one of two ways to do it. I call it horizontal or vertical scaling. Horizontal is sort of what I've done, which is like try different markets and invest in different markets but keep your strategy the same, you know, So I invested small, multifamily and single family. I do that in multiple different markets across the country. But I'm keeping one of those two things, the market or the strategy, the same. You know, I don't want to change both of those at the same Time, I wouldn't start flipping in Los Angeles. I wouldn't start a self storage facility in Raleigh, because that's a new strategy and a new market. That's a little too much risk for me. The other option, which I think you've done, or I think James Dana, another good example of this is like going all in on your market. Just be an expert at your market and then you can be very opportunistic about what deals you do in that market because like you, you could flip a house, you could do a short term rental, you could do a midterm rental, you could do any of those, you have all those because you're so good at your market. So I think you need to sort of pick either be really good at one market or be really good at one strategy and you can sort of work towards the other one. But trying to change both at the same time to me is a big red flag.

[B]

That is fantastic advice. I don't think I've heard it said that way before, but that makes a ton of sense because you're really just hedging your risk. Right. You're, you're choosing to leverage your superpower. Right. And so either your superpower is that you understand your strategy wholeheartedly and you feel like you can copy and paste in a market, or your superpower is I understand my market so well that I can do multiple strategies here. That's just smart investing.

[A]

Yeah. And I think a lot of people want to make a pivot and that's okay. I would just recommend moving towards it in steps. Just as an example, I started investing in the Midwest and yeah, I want to do bigger burrs, you know, like that's kind of the goal. I think that's a great way to make money out there. The first deal I bought was pretty close to stabilized and I did a cosmetic one because like, I knew I could handle that in a different market and thought, I'll meet some contractors, I'll test my team out, and then the next one I'll do a little bit bigger and the next one I'll do a little bit bigger. And I get the idea that you want to hit home runs, but again, this comes down to your goals. I'm in this for the long run. I look at my portfolio in a 15, 20 year timeline. I'm like, you know, realistically, to hit my goals, I'm going to have to do 50 deal. I don't know a lot. And so like, if it takes me one extra deal, an incremental deal to reduce risk and figure out the right path for me to scale, to learn, which is going to be the sustainable path for me. That's just, that's just worth it.

[B]

Yeah, I agree.

[A]

So we got to take one more quick break, but when we come back, we're going to talk about the motivation to keep going as you scale because as Henry said, it can get hard at certain points. And that is real. That is a real part of being a real estate investor. And so we're going to touch on that when we come back. Stick with us. Deals don't just fall in your lap anymore. You've got to hunt them. Propstream is the secret weapon. 160 million properties, 165 plus search filters and 20 lead lists like vacant homes and pre foreclosures. Their AI powered insights even score property condition and wholesale potential so you know where the real opportunities are hiding. And now that Propstream's acquired batch leads and batch dialer data and outreach finally live together, you can skip trace for free, hit leads with a power dialer and close before your competition even blinks. Try it free for seven days and get 50 leads [e-mail] BP that's propstream.com BP okay, let's say you're one properties mid flip ones between tenants. One's on Airbnb now try explaining that setup to a regular insurance company. Yeah, it's not fun. But with National Real Estate Insurance Group, it's actually easy. They're built for this stuff. Whether it's flips, short term rentals, even creative deals like subject to or sandwich leases. It doesn't matter if you've got properties in an LLC or a trust either they just roll it all into one bill and their coverage flexes as your properties change. If you invest in real estate, this is who you want. Go to nreig.com BPPOD to check it out. That's nreig.com BPPod want to invest in.

[C]

Real estate but don't have the time or know the best local markets? Rent to Retirement has you covered. Here's the deal. They've helped thousands of investors just like you find turnkey homes across the best US Markets. And best of all, they do all the heavy lifting for you. With over 255 star reviews on biggerpockets, Rent to Retirement experts help you build strategies to retire early through real estate. And right now, Rent to Retirement offers some amazing incentives on turnkey new construction properties like up to $30,000 off new build prices, 0% down loan options, 3.99% interest rates available. Don't miss out. These deals won't last. Text REI to 33777 or visit biggerpockets.com retirement to start investing in top cash flow markets Today, most investors say real.

[D]

Estate is about location, but in reality it's about information. That's why I like what Lennar is doing with their Investor Marketplace. It's a platform that gives you everything up front. Real rental comps, local growth trends, school scores, even neighborhood data before you ever click submit offer. And every property is new construction built and inspected by Lennar, which is one of the biggest names in home building. So you're always making data. If you want to make smarter buys, not just more buys, check out biggerpockets.com Lennar that's biggerpockets.com Le N N A R it's 3am on the 6th and you're wondering if you should text your tenant about rent. Here's a better idea. Don't With Avail, rent collection runs on autopilot. Automatic reminders go out payments land directly in your account. Late fees trigger when needed. Tenants can enable AutoPay and with FastPay you can get paid as soon as the next day. Sign up for free at avail CO BiggerPockets. That's AV A I L CO BiggerPockets. Avail handles rent collection so you can actually get some sleep.

[A]

Welcome Back to the BiggerPockets podcast. Henry and I are here talking about scaling and it's just such a common challenge. There's no one who gets through this. 100% of real estate investors have this challenge. Henry and I both presented frameworks of how we think about scaling. I love your way of thinking about which things to pick, by the way, but I want to talk less tactically and more just kind of mindset thing because you mentioned it earlier. When you're not living off your cash flow, when you want to get into this to maybe retire early but you're still years from retiring or something hard happens, like how do you mentally stick with it? Or like what are your tricks to staying motivated even when you're still a few years from getting the full benefit and you're having to work good amount to to make progress towards that goal.

[B]

What I think happens is we get fatigued, right? Because deals are hard, the market gets hard, the work gets hard and tedious. And so what what I do is I think about right? Like what's the end look like? And if I'm in a place where I feel like I want the End to be sooner than later. Like, it's just a math problem. So I can look at my current portfolio now and I can say, all right, Henry, if you want out and you don't want to have to work, what can you do with what you have to get there faster? So I can literally look at my portfolio, I can look at my equity positions and I can say, all right, well, how many of these properties paid off? Give me X amount of cash. Right. And so I can say, all right, well, maybe I don't want hundreds of doors. Maybe I just want 10 paid off houses. I have enough equity that if I sold most of it, I can probably just pay off 10 properties and then I don't have to do anything anymore.

[A]

And the average home in the US right now, if you had 10 paid off single family homes, you would make 20 grand a month in tax advantaged cash flow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

10 properties, that's it. A lot less headache. Yeah.

[B]

So when you're feeling overwhelmed and you've got a portfolio, you can, I can literally look at it and go, you know what if I. It'd be a pain in the butt to start selling a bunch of properties.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

It'll take me probably a year, Right. To fully exit everything. And then I can have 10 paid off houses producing 20 grand a month. And then I can, you know, walk off into the sunset or I can decide to do more deals.

[A]

Like, you've got.

[B]

Yes. You've got these options. Right. And so I guess my answer to your question is when I start feeling like that, I'm like, look, if I want out, I can get out. Will it be a little bit of a pain in the butt? Sure, yeah. Is that really what I want, though? And typically what I'll realize is, no, I want to keep going. Right. I want to keep going and things will be fine. But there's comfort in knowing that if I want out, if I truly want out, I can get out.

[A]

I like that a lot. It's a really good thing to keep in mind. I have a couple other things I'll share that I personally do when it gets hard. And one is, I think what your. Your point about the warm and fuzzies is true, like you can get rid of property.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've sold properties. That's just a headache, even if it's a good property, because it's just stressing me out. And that's not why I got into this. And so, like, you can call your portfolio anytime you want. I think that's a really important thing. Personally, a couple of years ago I made a decision that while I was still working, I was only going to spend 20 hours a month on real estate. Like I just start setting rules for myself about 20 hours a month. Like that's a rule I set for myself just to keep things normal. So that I'm remembering that like yeah, I'm working hard for this long term goal. I've been doing it for 15 years. But like I'm not going to let this consume me and be obsessed about it so that I don't have a good life right now. And you have to do that at the beginning. Like I grinded, I self managed, I fixed things myself for years when I didn't have capital. But I encourage people as they go through their investing career to just think about how to make it sustainable. Even if you have to make less money on every deal, just find systems that make it sustainable for you. I buy a lot of on market deals, I pay property managers to do things for me. Yes, I earn lower return. But this is why my strategy is I'm doing this for 20 years and I'm going to keep working. So it doesn't matter to me. I'm like, I have to make this sustainable for myself and something that I still enjoy and 15 years into it, I still enjoy it because I've sort of put these guardrails in place for myself. So that's number one. Number two, it is totally fine to just stop for a while. If you just don't want to do a deal for a year, don't. I've gone years without doing deals. Like, just don't. I like it's fine. This is especially, you know, I know in your situation and if you're flipping it's different, but if you're working full time and you're like, I'm just busy, it's totally fine. Actually this summer I was looking at a bunch of deals and I just texted my agent. I was like, you know, I'm just super busy for like the next four months. Just stop sending me me stuff. I'll like, I'll get back to you this winter. And they're like, okay, okay, fine. Like I don't have to do it, you know, it's just, it's up to you. So I think that's really big. And then the third one is, honestly in the last few years I've found a tremendous amount of comfort in just like having more friends in real estate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, for the first couple of years I was doing this, I was the only person I knew who invested in real estate. And it's kind of lonely, but I can't even tell y' all the amount of hours Henry and I have just complained to each other about real estate investing or, you know, shared wins with each other or with all of our other friends in the BiggerPockets community. It really does matter and it really does help. So I think if you haven't gone to a meetup in your community, if you haven't made any friends in your neighborhood or acquaintances in your market, I encourage people to do that even if you're not doing deals. I think it's just good way to sort of make this more sustainable.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Well, this has been a great conversation. I just want to stress to everyone that if you have faced this dilemma and question of how to scale, how to keep going in your investing career, everyone does. This is just part of it. Whether you're in real estate or anything that is entrepreneurial, it is. It's hard. It can be lonely at certain points. So, you know, there are tactical things. We've given you tactical advice on what you can do. But also just remember that this is something you're doing for yourself. You don't have to be doing it and just find ways, I think, to make it sustainable. The more longevity you give yourself in the industry, the more probability you're going to have to be successful. And as Henry said, feel warm and fuzzy about it. So that's. That's what we're in it for.

[B]

That's right. And look, if you are in the Midwest or in the northwest Arkansas market and you're just tired and thinking about getting out and wanting to sell some properties, then you just reach out to Dave or I, we can, we can help help you with that. We would be. We would be happy.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Or if you're one of those super rich people who just has all this money that they wanted to play, just.

[B]

Call us, give us a call.

[A]

Awesome. Well, thanks, man. I appreciate you being here. This was a lot of fun.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And thank you all for listening to this episode of Bigger Pockets podcast. We'll see you next time. So I tried explaining a sandwich lease to my insurance guy once and he just blinked at me like I made it up. And that's sort of the thing, right? Most insurance companies don't understand how we invest. You go vacant for a few weeks, you switch strategies, you hold stuff in an LLC and suddenly your coverage doesn't fit. Fit. That's why I recommend National Real Estate Insurance Group. They actually get real estate investors. Their coverage adjusts as your property changes, and you get one monthly bill for everything, no matter how weird your portfolio is. You can check them [e-mail] bppod that's n r e I g.com bppod it's okay not to be perfect with finances. Experian is your big financial friend and here to help. Did you know you can get matched with credit cards on the app? Some cards are labeled no Ding Decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no Ding Decline cards won't hurt your credit scores. If you aren't initially approved, initial approval will result in a hard inquiry, which may impact your credit scores. Experian.