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- [00:00]
A
Psychiatry has no basis in valid diagnostics. I healed this naturally and I became a notorious anti pharmaceutical activist. I wrote a book with an exploding pill on the COVID that became a New York Times bestseller. And I was like a really angry B for a lot of years. So I was born for this. I enjoy being provocative. It's fun for me. It's like a sport. And what would, you know, have potentially somebody else crying in a corner is like, I feel alive.
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B
Welcome back to the BILF pod where authenticity trumps authority. Today's guest is very, very exciting. She is an MIT graduate. Wow. Brains and beauty. So it says here MIT Neuroscience training. Sorry, training. According to a Cornell, Maryland. It just gets. This is crazy girl. Who are you? What's going on?
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A
The price tag. I'm like that.
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B
Oh my God, nyu. Like, who. Who is this lady that we are amazing. And you are an author. I mean, what aren't you doing? Author, A mom. Neuroscience. Like what is going on in life right here? You are just incredible. Welcome to the Build pod. I am so, so excited to finally have you on.
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A
Woo. You're so cute. It's such a pleasure. Pleasure to be here.
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B
Well, let me ask you, so how does one even decide that they're going to go get neuroscience training? Like, where did this all come from? And then what's really interesting is that the training that you had, you decided that it says here that the very system that trained you, you kind of just, you were like, mm, mm, no. So let's talk. Tell me a little bit about that.
- [01:56]
A
Well, anyone listening who has an immigrant parent knows that when your parent comes over here and you're a second generation, my mom came from Italy, that you have to kind of like make it worth the fact that they left the motherland, right? So you gotta become a doctor or a lawyer and you gotta make the money and you get pushed, at least in my generation, to right, materially succeed. So I was raised like so many. I think it's just starting to evolve. But like so many women, I was raised to focus on my achievements, my productivity, my intellect, and essentially what I can do in the world, rather than my energy, my femininity and just my beingness, my pleasure. Right? Like those things were not even relevant until about, you know, 10 years ago in my life. So in that sort of ethos, I was a total gunner. You know, in med school we'd call them gunners. Like, I was just like a neurotic, obsessive, try hard. And I was like always getting straight A's. And so I was very focused on college. My parents were very focused on getting me into, you know, a good college. And the decision to become a doctor actually, though, was my own because I was working a suicide hotline at mit, which I went to because I was really identified with my masculine right. Like, I had all male friends. Like, I very much had this notion that I could do whatever a man could do. Bleeding, you know, like, I was competitive, very competitive in my, you know, inner wounds. That's how they expressed. And of course, I didn't know at the time that that's what I was dealing with, But I worked a suicide hotline. And this hotline, suicide is a big, or at least it was at the time a big issue at mit. And at this hotline, I was supervised by psychiatrists. And so I began to develop the belief that all we have to do is get people medical treatment, right? So if they're suffering, we just have to connect them to prescriptions and then everything will be fine. And that felt philanthropic. Like, it felt like I was doing, you know, important volunteer work. But I look back now and I see, wow, what I was really doing was managing my own discomfort with human suffering, right? So I was so emotionally immature, so unable to just sit with adversity, difficulty, somebody's emotional challenges that I had to not only learn about, but then ultimately specialize in how to make those go away, right? So I really bought that, you know, hook, line and sinker, that you can make problems with your feelings, with your cognition, with your mood go away if you simply take psychiatric medications, maybe a little therapy, whatever. But I was mostly focused on psychopharmacology. So I became a psychiatrist and I specialized in women's health. I was actually one of the first 300 to specialize, wait for it, in prescribing to pregnant and breastfeeding women. So that was how much I believed in the medication based model. And it wouldn't be fast forward until postpartum. My own first pregnancy. I was in my fellowship. So like 10 years of medical training later, and I developed my first medical problem. I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's thyroiditis. I'm sure a lot of the ladies listening have heard of this or been diagnosed themselves. And. And I absolutely did not wanna deal with this. So call it like sacred laziness. Like, I don't know what saved me, but I was not willing to walk to CVS every month and fill a prescription for the rest of my damn life. I was totally unavailable for that. And that's what inspired me to look elsewhere Because I knew what conventional medicine had to offer, I could have written my own prescriptions. It's not like I had any questions about what was available to me to manage this diagnosis. I also had a practice full of women with thyroid conditions who were bloated, hair falling out, you know, achy, joints flat mood, brain fog. And I knew that they never really felt better, even if they were compliant with their Synthroid with their prescription. So the rest is history. You know, I healed this naturally and I became a notorious anti pharmaceutical activist. I wrote a book with an exploding pill on the COVID that became a New York Times bestseller. And I was like a really angry bitch for a lot of years. It was like the betrayal that I felt I had experienced at the hands of the medical system. I've chilled out a lot since then, but that's really where I come from. And it's also where and how I was able to develop such a passionate belief in the potential for anybody to, to resolve literally any chronic condition. And I've published many, many examples of, you know, history making cases that they set their mind to.
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B
So, yeah, yeah, I mean that, first of all, that's incredible kudos to you because what I've learned, and you know, I don't have any, I'm not versed in the medical field at all. In fact, like, I was raised like you, where you either go to law school or you go and become a doctor. There was really no other choice.
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A
Right.
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B
And I went down the path, down the path of becoming a lawyer. I mean, life is funny, it didn't quite pan out. But what I love, you know, there was a few key takeaways that I heard you say. Number one, you were your own advocate. Because even now, like I see with my, my own kids, the first thing that doctors want to do is they want to put you on meds. Like that's the cure. I'll tell. Like nothing else is happening. Let's just put them on meds and see what's going to happen. And I've noticed, especially within the last few years, as I've become more sick season, not older season, that you do have to be your own advocate for a lot of what's going on. You know, oh, you're going through menopause, let's go ahead and put you on this. Or perimenopause, go ahead and put you on this. Oh, your kid has adhd, let's put him on this. And it is a, it's a very scary world that we live in that people are huge Fans of taking medication. I am not a huge fan of it. You know, peptides are one thing, you know, but medication, daily medication just doesn't seem like something, number one, that I'd be comfortable with. Number two, what happens when you don't take your medication? Then what happens? And number three, is this your entire way of life that you're going to be on meds for the rest of your life? So I really respect you and take my hat off to you really going out there and being your own advocate, not only for yourself, but other people that are told that medication is the only way to do things. So congratulations to you on that. I love that.
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A
Yeah, I would just like sort of double click on that because my personality, I mean, I alluded to how I was raised a little bit, but my personality, I am such an extremist and, you know, so intense that I have a problem solver mind, okay? I love fixing things, I love solving problems. I have a lot of masculine proficiencies and competencies as a woman. That's how I refer to it. Like a lot of yang energy, right? If medications actually worked, I would be a total stand for them. That's why I was so passionate about medication when I went to medical school and ultimately specialized, right? Because I have a consciousness in me, right? I like to think like, oh, I've evolved and matured and now I embrace all these different things, but I'm still that person, right? I still am the person who loves to solve a fucking problem. And I would believe in them 100%, right? Like, I know a lot about natural medicine, but I'm not necessarily like some earth mama, you know, painting the, you know, the walls with my menstrual blood. That's not necessarily my personality either, although I have many girlfriends like that, totally here for it. But my personality is very allopathic, is what I'm trying to say. If medication actually worked, and that's the, the medical literature that I went on to expose with hundreds and hundreds of scientific references in my subsequent books, I'd be all about it, because I don't. So you take it forever. Who cares if it works, it works. What's the problem, right? Like, I don't have a general issue with it, but they don't work. None of them work. And even if they have an effect, okay, that effect will very, very quickly wear off, Right? Your body habituates very quickly, gets used to it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And they come with such a price tag that you can't possibly call it working when you're dealing with A whole new laundry list of shit that you never wanted to even confront. You just wanted to solve this one specific thing. So if they worked, fantastic. They don't. So what are the other options? And you mentioned peptides. And I think we are in a moment where the seeming dichotomy between conventional and natural medicine, which is where I've lived, right. Like I've had like one foot in each world in this lifetime, is really softening into this like third path where people do take responsibility for their own well being and they also address issues specifically. Right. So they're addressing, you know, hair loss or joint pain or an accident or injury. Right. But they're doing it with compounds and molecules that the body actually recognizes. Because even when we're talking about vitamins and supplements, I mean, these are all synthesized, Right. They might be bioidentical, meaning like the body, you know, has similar compounds inside. But I'm observing, like sitting back with my, you know, popcorn and being like, wow, we are at an amazing moment because all of the fruits of the natural health movement are now exposing that conventional medicine. It's just not appealing. Right. So the worst case scenario is that people feel that that's the only option they have. Right. Because there are so many others.
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B
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, for you, I can only imagine you're kind of in this, you know, you're in a, you're in a field where medically, scientifically, you know, people have their very strong opinions. How were you able to navigate against like my personality? I feel like we're very, very much similar. You know, I'm very a type and when I believe this is like, this is the way that. But you know, sometimes it's really hard when you have a whole community of people that don't exactly feel the way that you do sometimes. So how were you able to really just kind of rise above it and say, you know what? I know all of you over here think this way. You know, conventional medicine is the way to go. Synthroid is going to help, you know, help solve all your problems. And a little Lisinopril here and a little metformin there. How are you able to really navigate that where you're right, Peptides is a brand new thing and I think it's, you know, right now it's more acceptable. But I can only imagine years ago here you come out and you're saying, you know what? Conventional medicine, that's not really working. So how were you able to really get around that with your colleagues and your peers in your Area of expertise.
- [13:10]
A
Yeah. So I was born for this, right? Like, I enjoy being provocative. It's fun for me. It's like a sport. And what would have potentially somebody else crying in a corner is like, I feel alive. Right? So I really enjoyed the early days of my activism because I have had so many pivots over the course of my 15 plus year public career that I can tell you the ones that were really challenging and the ones that were just fun. And meanwhile, everybody's giving me all this. You're so courageous. You're so brave. No, not at all. This was literally like a sport for me. So when I came out against conventional medicine and I got this huge book deal and I got to run my mouth about all of the discoveries that I'd made about, you know, medications and their undisclosed side effects and their over promised benefits, and I had pushback, especially when I had specific opinions about certain pharmaceutical products. I was really, it was easy for me, right. So I quickly joined an entire community. Like I attracted, I guess, and joined and maybe even partially built a community of other MDs and researchers and scientists who felt the way I did, right? So one thing I'll say is I've always had a mentor in anything I'm interested in. I've always had a mentor, big believer in mentorship, and I've always had a sometimes small, but a meaningful community of very niche, like minded folks who we totally see eye to eye on the subject that I am building my inner legitimacy around. Right? Because nothing is hard to take a stand for when you are legitimized inside. It's only hard when you're wobbling and then you get to interact with that wobble on the outside. So, you know, that was probably the first pivot, I would say. Another was in 2020, you know, I made the disinformation dozen list that Joe Biden was warning about, you know, these 12 people who were spreading misinformation because I came out with a very strong opinion around what was happening and alienated a lot of people, tons of people. But I also had my little community, right? And I had the elders in my field, you know, older doctors who'd been saying the things, you know, about germ theory and contagion and these sorts of subjects for many, many years prior to my, you know, awakening around it. However, the pivot that really brought me to my knees. So I was also here for that because I had been like censored and shadow banned before that just because of my pharmaceutical stuff.
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B
And so didn't they Name you, like the villain. Like the. They called you the villain crown. Like, you have all these. And then he became the antagonist. And like, you're. I mean, that's. That's a lot. That's a lot.
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A
That's what I'm trying to say is, like, it. It not only wasn't, but I. I liked it because also I got, you know, click juice, right? Like, I got traffic and my business flourished because I love that I otherwise was so dealing with a lot of the digital censorship that was starting around 2018, 2019. I was like one of the medical doctors who was really subjected to that, let's say. So all of a sudden, like, my name is in the media. I'm like, this is fantastic, right? It's like free advertising.
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B
I was just going to say, any publicity is good publicity.
- [16:46]
A
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I would say the pivot then, which, you know, on some level is a bit cliche. But after I got divorced, this was in 2021, I went through this whole erotic embodiment, you know, feminine reclamation journey and started pole dancing and coming into my energy in a very different way. And, I mean, to this day, I could be in an airport and a woman comes up to me and she doesn't thank me for helping her to come off bipolar meds or, you know, resolve her Hashimoto's. She literally thanks me for introducing her to pole dance. And it's because I was, you know, I would share videos. I'm not particularly good. Like, I'm still a beginner, so it's like you could sort of see yourself in me, right? Like, it's like, I'm not intimidating, okay? But I also am so clearly feeling myself so clearly enjoying this experience that I think it was really an invitation. But it also, I mean, I ended up losing almost half of my subscriber list I had built over 10 years in terms of my newsletter. It was very, very challenging. I felt a lot of opportunity to work with my own shame and the ways that I agreed with the people who were criticizing me, who were saying things like, stick to your lane. Just talk about nutrition, you know, meds, and, you know, what are you doing? Like, you're embarrassing yourself. You're reckless. I can't believe you have daughters. Like, all of this kind of stuff. So that gave me a lot of material to get to know myself better. And I ultimately ended up writing a book about the tools that helped me to become even more unfuckable with. Right? Like, the tools that helped me to grow into an experience of My maturity as a woman because of that pivot. And, you know, now I'm in the midst of another pivot where I'm, I'm about to, you know, launch a beauty related offer. I mean, I'm a credentialed medical doctor, right? And like, these days, you know, I'll get texts from celebrity makeup artists I'm working with, you know, that are like, what did you think about the smoky eyeshadow? Like, that's my life right now. And I just, I mean, I love it.
- [19:04]
B
You, you, I, look, there's so much to be said, you know, and I resonate with a lot of the things that you're saying. Like, well, I said I'm not, you know, I don't know much about the medical field, but when people are coming from all different angles and they are the naysayers around you, it is, it is a tough, tough, tough life to live. And I just, you know, I commend you for still, you know, we, A lot of times we have imposter syndrome or will fold to the people that are around us. So I love that. Number one, you pointed out that you had a great community of support because that is important. That's really important. Because in life you already know there's already going to be haters no matter what. Number two, you know, not necessarily. And it's not necessarily a bad thing when you have haters and you have bad publicity, because like I was saying, you know, any publicity is really good publicity. But number three, the fact that you didn't back down or, or kind of stay in your lane. I love that you were like, fuck it, this is who I am. Unapologetically. Here's why. Here are the facts. Now what? Mic drop. I love that. I, I absolutely love the energy. But I do think. Do you think that's something you've always kind of had inside of you? Like that innate that, oh, here, you know, here I am? Or is that something you kind of grew into?
- [20:13]
A
Yes, I am a double Gemini. So I am like very shiny object syndrome. Like, I'm always onto the new thing. I mean, I, you know, like, I went to my little coffee shop today and I order, I go for, I walk a lot. Okay. And I order a latte every day. They know me, that kind of situation. And today I show up and I'm like, I'm going to get a black drip coffee. They're like, what? I'm like, I just am bored. I'm going to try something different. And so I do a lot, a lot A lot of experimentation. And like you, I get like super enthusiastic about the things that I am interested in. However, I would say what has evolved and matured in me over the years is my ability to be bad and wrong. And my daughters actually have probably been the most meaningful inspiration gurus, you know, muses in that arena when they were tweens. I really recognized that I was at a fork in the road around being right and losing connection, which was a lot of the pattern of our teenage years, you know, that we grew up with. And I recognized, thank God, I recognized the opportunity. And I also stopped drinking back then. And I had only ever really been, you know, a social drinker. I never had any consequences. It's not like I had any real reason. And now, of course, it's like so commonplace. I mean, I literally don't know anybody who drinks anymore. It's so wild. But, you know, years ago I decided to do that and I didn't know the connection to my relationship with my daughters at the time. I didn't know why it was related. Cause I would like, you know, have a mezcal while I'm cooking dinner. What's the big deal? And when I completely cut alcohol out of my life, somehow I got really good at being humble. I got really good at saying, I don't know, really good at laughing at myself when I was wrong, and really good at being the expert of nothing with my kids because I was such a know it all and so passionate about handing down all of these pearls of wisdom that I had, you know, that were hard won that I had accumulated over the course of my inquiry journey. Right. Like questioning absolutely everything. Everything, you know, from economics to cosmology to education. I mean, I had an opinion about everything, right? And I needed my kids to get it. And you know, they were after being homeschooled for, you know, a year and a half, I would say in 2020, they couldn't wait to go back to school. So, yeah, they were not interested in Kelly's school. They decided to go to school and. And I recognized that I was, you know, a lot of holistic moms do this. I watch it happen. I was 100% a poster girl for this. We are just greenwashed control, you know, authoritarian versions of our parents. Right? So it becomes not about, you know, necessarily the curfews or whatever the hell our parents worried about, but it's like about, like, no, you have to eat the organic or like, you know, the EMFs or, you know, all of the, the health related roles, the Things you're supposed to believe. And as I released all of that and began to mother my daughters, you know, from the ethos of always being on their team, literally no matter what, always on their team, I experienced like true intimacy. It makes me want to cry in my life, like true intimacy. And that's what I have to thank them for because now I'm good at, you know, being wrong in the rest of my life. And it's such a flex because I literally have zero conflicts. And it's not because I'm some kind of doormat, it's because I'm interested in relationships, which means that I listen, you know, better, that I ask questions better and that I, I acknowledge that there is, there's potential for mutual need meeting in every moment. And it's not, you know, this zero sum game of me versus the world that I really was inhabiting most of my life.
- [24:28]
B
Isn't that funny how kids teach you more life lessons than you can ever gain in any university or anywhere in the world. It's like a constant learning process. I too, I have kids, you know, I was telling you, I have an 18 year old daughter, 15 year old son and a 8 year old little boy. So there's like a huge gap. And it's funny because of the mother that I am now versus when I 18 years ago, you know, to my patience level. And then just under. You're, you're absolutely right. Is it about, you know, when it comes to relationships, I would say that my kids have taught me the most about myself, but the most about myself in understanding other people and understanding that not everything has to be Mara's way. Even though, you know, I'm still, still, we're still working on that. But you know, they brought in, I mean, they brought in your understanding and your level of understanding human beings and what an authentic real relationship is. Because at the end of the day, kids are not judging you and they love you for who you are. It doesn't matter how much education or you know, what your title, it doesn't matter. You're just mom to them. So, you know, I, I can absolutely resonate with you on that. But I want to switch gears and talk a little bit about depression. I know you talk about depression and mental illness is, it's definitely a real thing. I combat anxiety myself. I live with it daily. I don't take medication for it. Not, not that I don't have anything bad, anyone could take medication. I just chose not to do it. That was not my thing. I wanted to control it otherwise. But you speak a lot about that and you know, kind of controlling it also through, you know, your emotions. So can you, can you talk a little bit about that? Depression versus, you know, utilizing medicine versus dealing with your emotions and.
- [26:07]
A
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I think that one of the primary distinctions between trying to problem solve something that you're experiencing that you don't like and trying to know yourself and to experience your life as a journey of self discovery, right? So those are two different types of consciousness, those are two different mindsets, those are two different meanings of life, right? So like either life is a test to ace, it's a riddle to resolve, or it's a journey, an archetypal hero or heroine's journey, and the destination is an inner one. So that's more of like a Jungian perspective, I would say, than the psychopharmacologic, medication based allopathic perspective I was trained in. So when you say there's nothing wrong with taking meds, I can definitely say some things that are wrong with taking meds and I'm happy to share those based on the published evidence. And when I say wrong, I'm sort of like tongue in cheek saying like, well, you just might not know this. So let me put you on before you make a decision that definitely impacts the rest of your life, especially if you take meds for more than two months. But it's really more about like, what are you a match for, right? What are you aligned with? And either you're interested in why you're experiencing something, you're curious about why you're experiencing something, because you know that a symptom is like a message from you. And while it's very tempting to imagine that somebody can help you understand what that message is, AKA a doctor, they really can. That's like the worst fricking news is only you can understand and decode your journey. Literally only you can know what your anxiety is actually about. Why is it happening? It's not random, right? You can know the question that is being posed to your life, right? You are the one to answer that question. And that doesn't mean you can't get support and you know, attract amazing resources. But it's a question that literally only you can answer. And usually these more chronic issues that we call anxiety or depression even, we could get into bipolar, even schizophrenia, adhd, it's all the same. In my opinion, and not just my opinion, there is a major shift in your lifescape that is being asked of you. And when you're ready to Address it. You will, and you won't even up to a moment before you're ready. So that's where there's literally no judgment in is what it is until there's a readiness to change. And when there's a readiness to change, you'll move towards that change and it'll feel like relief. It won't feel scary. It won't feel intimidating. And I'm talking big changes in life. Identity shifts, right? Like it's. You pivot in your experience of yourself and you expand the definition of what that means. So you know, when you're looking at what are these things, it's important to know that psychiatry has no basis in valid diagnostics. What do I mean by that? When we use these terms, they're subjective, right? They're dictionary terms that are descriptive in nature. There's no blood test, there's no cerebrospinal fluid. There's no genetic test. There's no scan that can help you to diagnose it. You are diagnosed literally. Like, do you remember? Like Cosmo magazine quizzes, okay? That's what goes on in that is what they do. Hallowed halls of academic psychiatry. Okay? So these are not actual disease entities. They're patterns. They're behavioral patterns. And who cares? Why I care is because once you start working with a label, you're hexed. You're adopting all of the condemning, negative energy of that label that now defines your self concept in a way that is so extraordinarily, extraordinarily limiting that a rebirth is required. And this is my specialty, right? Like, this is what I helped patients with as I supported their deprescribing and coming off of meds for 10 years in New York. A rebirth is required to literally reclaim yourself from this small shell of a broken, damaged version of yourself that you identified with when you took that diagnosis. This is probably true about every diagnosis, but we're just talking about psychiatry, right? So once you take that diagnosis, then of course it makes sense to accept the prescription that goes with it. I mean, that's like the only logical next step, right? So you accept the prescription and you think, okay, well, this could have some side effects, but maybe it'll work. That's how I would think about it. That's how I used to think about it. Right? Well, the literature tells a very different story. So it tells quite a different story about the efficacy. And in summary, I mean, I could give a whole weekend workshop on this. But in summary, these medications are no more effective than an active placebo. An Active placebo is a medication that you can feel you're taking, right? So you get a little headache, you get a little dry mouth. It has like similar side effects. Once that happens, what happens? You say, oh, it's working, something's happening. Right. And that's all that's necessary to get about 30% of an effect that overlaps entirely with a medication that has nothing to do with psychiatry at all. In fact, most of the studies are in cardiac meds. It's just that effective. Right. The rest of it is belief. Right.
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B
I would agree with you.
- [31:57]
A
Really well established in the literature. Right. So they don't work actually, they definitely don't work in the long term. And in fact in the long term the outcomes are way worse in terms of functionality. The book that broke this open for me and made me put down my prescription pad for good is called Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker. And basically what he proved through these non industry funded studies is that disability the world over, mental health, disability the world over is driven by medication compliance. You take your meds, you're more disabled. Well, that would make you think twice about taking it, right? Like even if it's like oh, Xanax or Klonopin or Valium for like a short term situation, but once you're past the two month mark, you're in a very different terrain. And who's talking to you about the risks and benefits of this terrain? But it's actually the risks that I never learned about as a very active prescriber that, you know, were terrifying to me because once I started to dig around and, and look at what some of these mentors in my field were blowing the whistle about, I found out that not only are these the most habit forming chemicals on the planet, literally make like crack cocaine, alcohol, oxycontin look like a total joke. I mean coming off these medications after you've been on them for even a few months is something that could literally put you in the hospital in a way that you never ever imagined you were going to be dealing with. I mean it's so this was my specialty, like I said, for a long time. And anybody who's ever gone through this can tell you what that journey is like. Okay? Nobody tells you that up front when you're filling your first prescription. And also they have very unpredictable side effects that can lead to, and this sounds dramatic, but can lead to violence, Right? So people who kill themselves kill other people. There's all sorts of documentation around something called Akathisia that you can seemingly randomly develop okay, Nothing's actually random, but nobody is testing for whether or not you are vulnerable to this. So you develop the side effects, and you end up with this, like, unbelievably horrific outcome that is then blamed on your mental illness. But the literature tells a different story, and it says that it's actually driven by medication. So if you knew even a little bit of what I'm saying before, you're like, oh, well, I'll give it a try. You probably wouldn't say, oh, well, I'll give it a try. You'd probably say, what the hell else can I do? Right? Like, there's gotta be something else I can do. Not just, like, sit here and white knuckle my life, but the other things you can do is what I've, you know, devoted the better part of my career to.
- [34:35]
B
Yeah, it's funny that. It's really funny that you say all this. I'm not medically trained, so I would never give medical advice. But that's why I don't take meds for anxiety. I did. I was put on meds immediately when I was diagnosed with an SSRI or whatever the term is. And it got worse before it got better. And I'm like, this is insane. Like, this is crazy. I don't feel like myself. And. And immediately within, you know, I remember calling the doctor, and doctor was like, you have to let it run its course. I'm like, but I feel worse. I don't feel better. So that was it. I think I took it for maybe three to five days, maybe max. And after that, I was like, there is no way that I am ever taking. Like, I'll deal with the anxiety, you know, whatever the root of the problem is, because I do. As somebody that suffers from extreme anxiety, there's obviously a reason, which, you know, I'm very much aware of the reason for it, but I do think it definitely has to do with situation and behavioral. Like, not behavioral, but situation. And once you get to the root of it, you're able to deal with it. So I can deal with it in a way that is. That is not so extreme, but the medication. And again, I've never come out because I don't have all the medical, you know, background to say it, but that is 100% why I. I did not continue taking anxiety meds. And when my daughter was diagnosed with anxiety, the same thing, there was no way I was gonna let her take any meds for it, because there's a different way to control it.
- [35:56]
A
But.
- [35:56]
B
And that's just an opinion because again, I don't have any expertise to back that up. But that is, that was my experience with it. Same thing that the meds were not making it better, it was worse.
- [36:06]
A
And then you have angels, you know, that that really whispered in your ear because a lot of women, you know, all the women that I ever worked with who are on These meds for 10, 20, sometimes 30 years, there's nothing coming off those meds is a hellscape. You know, they were gaslit around the early, you know, adverse effects and told, you know, hang in there, or told, oh, that's just your underlying mental illness being activated. You know, one in 23 people who take an antidepressant develop bipolar disorder, right? Does that mean that the antidepressant is what I was taught the antidepressant is, unmasking the underlying bipolar disorder? Or does that mean that the adverse effects of this medication are now pattern recognized as a brand new diagnosis for which you need all, all sorts of other medications? And here you are on the conveyor belt of polypharmacy. So, yeah, the thing you alluded to that I think is so important is I wrote in one of my books that suffering ends where meaning begins, right? When you can wrap your experience in personal meaning, it is integrated into your narrative and it becomes something that you can take ownership over. Because when you take responsibility for your experience, it doesn't mean you necessarily have to like love and celebrate it. It just means you're not rejecting and saying no and putting all your life force energy into saying, like, fuck this, I hate this. This sucks, like all day long, right? Imagine how many of us do that with so many things, right? Like from our marriage to, you know, our money to let alone our health. And when you can relax that, you know, tension, you have the opportunity to shift your perspective. And the shift in perspective will expose to your awareness the way through. There's always a way through and it will be presented to you. And I've watched this be all sorts of things, right? So like from homeopathy to essential oils to plant medicine to retreat, you know, there's, there's a way through that is just for you. Divorce. I mean, there's a way through.
- [38:13]
B
I think once you come into your truth, I think once you're okay with your truth and who you are, like take medicine out of all of this. But once you're real with yourself and that's like, you know, that's what. I also am divorced. So, you know, by the time I got into my older years, my more seasoned years. And I understand what my truth is. I think a lot of the, the fears, the anxieties, they start to dissipate because you've come into yourself like, you know who you are, you know where you're going, and, and when you have all this ambiguity over here, that's when everything I think becomes, you know, so cloudy. But, you know, I can relate that in any aspect of anyone's life, it's living your own truth. And once you find out what that is for you, I think there's a lot of clarity. The path becomes wide open. You don't feel so stuck, you know?
- [39:00]
A
Yeah. I would add though, just one little thing that I've observed, which is that getting real with yourself, let alone other people, requires that you learn how to be with shame. Right. And to sit with shame. And the energetics. Yeah, the energetics of shame are so intense that you literally. Right. If you think about the feeling of it, it's like this hot inner drain that feels like it could like pull you down into the center of the earth and you kind of wish it would. Right. Like it's the most energetically demanding of all emotional states. And what I found is that there is a level of nervous system regulation and integrity that is required before you can even begin shadow work, before you can even begin truly taking responsibility for your undisclosed motivations and your covert intentions and all sorts of codependent behaviors and the things that you're up to. Right? So that's why I've come to believe in like an order of operations and when I've supported women in resolving chronic illness and coming off of meds. The program, my program, it's like a 30 day lifestyle medicine program, right? So it's chopping wood, carrying water. It's what the freak to eat, you know, it's what to do when you wake up. It's super basic stuff, but because we have these extraordinary outcomes that some of which have never been published, I got really into publishing these for a period of time and some of these literally never, like I published, as far as I know, the first Graves disease, which is another thyroid condition, you know, recovery without any, you know, radioactive pharmaceuticals or surgery. Right? So, so dramatic stuff, right? But it comes from this super basic experience of taking responsibility for yourself, right? So actually giving a shit about yourself the way you would about like a little baby, right? A newborn baby. So when that happens, you experience a signal of safety. Like all of a sudden somebody's home, the lights are on inside of yourself and it's the beginning of even having the capacity to respond differently to old triggers. Because if you go into shadow work and inner child work and reparenting before, you have a sound nervous system. And you'll know that you do because you're not bloated. You're sleeping, sleeping well, you know, you don't have aches and pains, right? These are all autonomic nervous system regulated phenomenon, right? Like these kind of general. Don't even get me started with what we're labeling perimenopause, right? Like, just these blanket terms become a term.
- [41:46]
B
Why is that a term? Can we not say this term anymore?
- [41:49]
A
Yeah.
- [41:51]
B
Is that a real thing?
- [41:52]
A
Is that.
- [41:53]
B
Is that a real thing? Like, I'm very upset about this term.
- [41:56]
A
Yeah, if you're.
- [41:56]
B
When did this become a real thing?
- [41:58]
A
And mitochondrially dysfunctional. And like, all the things that we are now normalizing through these general labels the same way that we did in psychiatry. Like, it's the same phenomenon, right? It's. It's this impressionistic, dismissive experience of gaslighting a person, a woman in this case, and saying, oh, no, no, no, it's fine, it's fine. It's normal. No, it's.
- [42:21]
B
You're in perimenopausal. You're in your perimenopausal state. I heard that. I heard that for the first time, like, a few years ago.
- [42:27]
A
I'm like, a. What?
- [42:29]
B
I'm like, is that a real thing? Like, what are we talking about here? You know, you've heard. I've heard it in passing, but now we use it just so dismissively and so commonly. It's perimenopausal. You're acting like this because it's perimenopausal.
- [42:41]
A
What is it? What is this?
- [42:43]
B
And it's a. And it's a long duration, right? It's like 35 to, like, 45, 50. I'm like, what is this?
- [42:50]
A
Yeah. Just to encompass and dismiss and normalize, like, all of these ways that women are living out of sync, out of alignment, out of balance with what they actually need in order to feel safe and well in the world.
- [43:05]
B
What's your. So, you know, when we're talking about diagnosing one thing and, you know, I'm always, like, hesitant to say anything because, of course, you know, you don't want to get canceled. But whatever, I'll say it. I feel like the biggest one of the, you know, this labeling or misdiagnosing, and I see it within my daughter's friend group and, like, around the kids that are, I'm depressed, I have this. Well, I mean, whatever happened to like, no, you have feelings and that's okay. And this over misdiagnosing, I mean, do you think that we're in an error? I know you talked a lot about it, but the over diagnosing and it's just become so rampant that everything has a label or diagnosis. Everything.
- [43:49]
A
Yeah, I mean, the funny thing about psychiatry, it's not funny at all actually. And I trained in New York, right? And I trained specifically at Bellevue Hospital, NYU, where there are 13 locked psychiatric units that we would rotate around. And that's not even including. We also rotated at the va, at the state prisons and then at some private hospitals. So NYU is like an empire in New York. So I got a lot of exposure to involuntary diagnosis in psychiatry, right? Because it's the only field, as far as I'm aware, in medicine where you can be diagnosed against your will, right? Which is a reality. So I want to acknowledge that because otherwise you have to participate in being diagnosed, right? You have to participate in seeking out that label, that hexing that I referenced earlier. And you'd only do that because you want to be validated in an experience of suffering that you're having, which is the most natural human impulse ever, right? And that's why the medical industry has, you know, captured so much of the population is because it preys on the victim psychology that says, poor me, no fair, I hate this, and gives you this like little surrogate experience of empowerment that says, I knew something was wrong with me, I'm right about that. Right? So absolutely, if you choose not to participate in that, right? Like not to seek out that label, not to go to the expert, if you choose to simply be with your experience, be curious about it and allow that posture towards yourself to lead you to what is actually your way through, it will just be a part of your life experience, right? Like it's just a phase in your life experience and it's not necessarily the beginning of your identification as a patient. But the challenge is that most of us were raised by emotionally immature parents and we then went on to be emotionally, to some extent, immature parents. Yeah, right. And our children then are not equipped to learn how to interact with emotional states from early on. And I'm talking like the most seemingly benign things, like telling your kid you're okay when they're crying, right? Like everyone does that and it's a gaslight and it is non empathic. It is a reflection of your inability to actually understand what is going on in that kid emotionally. Right. So you're guarding yourself. There are infinite examples of emotionally unavailable and immature parents and parenting that is normalized to an extent that. Then we wonder why these generations that are subsequent to, you know, these emotionally immature parents are quick to adopt a diagnosis when they don't want to deal with, feel, or interact with their own inner world, their emotions, their mind. Right. And you could even make it more spiritual and soulful. Right. They don't have or want to develop a relationship to who it is that they actually are.
- [47:03]
B
Yeah, it's. And I see it like gener. It's generational too. You know, you can see it from like your grandparents to your parents to, you know, to where we are raising our own children. But I. I am curious. How do you feel about child immunization shots? What's your. What's your take on the whole. There's a lot of controversy on child immunization shots. Should you. Shouldn't you. What's your take on it?
- [47:25]
A
Yeah, so this was. Remember I was like, kind of joking earlier about, like, certain pharmaceuticals that I began to research when I was generally researching pharmaceuticals after I had resolved my Hashimoto's naturally. And instead of being like, super excited about that, I was like, enraged, right. And I was like, felt so betrayed, I felt, by the system, the medical system. And I dedicated myself to learning all the lies that I had been. Of course, I started with psychiatry and researched every psychiatric med, but that didn't stop there. Right. So my first book is about that, and then my second is about medicine more generally. And, you know, I was compelled to research vaccination when I was pregnant. And what spurred this on is that I had a patient. So, okay, I was a reproductive psychiatrist. So I specialized, like I said, in prescribing to pregnant women. Women. I had a patient who had a second trimester stillbirth. Okay. I'm sure as a mom, you understand that that is like, gotta be top three most traumatic human experiences that are available, you know, to a person. Okay. And I was prescribing to her an antidepressant. So I was very motivated to do more research into other exposures since I had taken, you know, great care and lots of due diligence and very elaborate informed consent to make sure that she knew exactly the available data to support the prescribing of the antidepressant. Anyway, it was the double flu shot season, and I learned that she had just popped over to cvs, right, with some tech and got the double flu shot, you know, before she had this experience. So again, remember I was a card carrying believer at that point. So it's not like I was like, you see, I knew, you know, the father something, so I really was motivated for the same reason that I actually had a natural birth. So I was pregnant at this time myself. The same reason that I had a natural birth with my first daughter is not because I was like, you know, some earth mama. It's because I actually looked at the obstetrical evidence for any intervention and I was like appalled, like, are you kidding me? This is consensus medicine. This is not evidence based medicine. What are you y' all doing here? And so I was a little competitive too. Like, you know, sort of judging of,
- [49:58]
B
you're like, if I could do it, you know, you want to try a little bit? You're like, I got this.
- [50:01]
A
Yeah, it was a lot of that. It was a lot of that. So that was the beginning of my journey. And like I mentioned I was, I was pregnant. So I was also beginning to research for myself because I was a know it all, remember? And, and I wasn't going to take anybody's word for it and I was going to, I was very comfortable with pubmed.gov and looking at my own studies and reading beyond just the abstract. And that was the beginning of about, oh gosh, like a 10,000 hour journey down the rabbit hole of the untold story of all of these injectable interventions, shall we say. And that was really what I then went on to become like quite notorious for, is being like this big anti vaxxer or whatever. And I am really again a stand for effective safe interventions and transparent information. So that's all that I've ever attempted to provide. But I've maintained a pharma free household for almost 20 years and we're all doing great.
- [51:11]
B
I've never ever had a flu shot. I, I just, it doesn't make sense in my head. Maybe I'm crazy, but it makes no sense to inject yourself. And it's just, I didn't do the COVID I actually am lying. I did do one Covid thing because I couldn't go on a cruise. And after I did it I was like, I am never injecting myself with any Covid. I, I just didn't do any of it and I didn't do it with my kids. In fact, I, no, I'm lying again. My daughter, they made me do it with her and the pediatrician was, she was like, I cannot believe you out of all people, because we needed this vaccination, you know, to go on the cruise. And then we, then we found out that we can finagle the whole thing. Sorry we didn't do it, but like, it just didn't make sense. In my head between the flu shot and the COVID I was like, this is ridiculous. I never. And we never did it. Never. And I've never ever gotten a flu shot ever.
- [51:58]
A
There's a lot of dissonance, you know, and cognitive dissonance is a very powerful psychological tool, right? Because when you can put somebody in a split reality where something that they're observing is at odds with what they're being told by an authority, they have to resolve that somehow. So either they ignore their lived experience. Like every mom knows, for example, that you've been around a sick kid and you don't get stuck sick, right? So how the frick does that work if germ theory is real and contagion is actually a thing and all of that, right? So you have to dismiss your lived experience, sometimes your intuition, sometimes your pre existing beliefs, and adopt what this authority and society at large is telling you. Or you have to stand for what you believe and suffer the potential, you know, being ostracized or ridiculed or worse. Right. Or somehow punished on a social scale. So it's, It's a powerful tool to subdue and really, you know, obligate people to conform.
- [53:09]
B
Yeah, it's a lot. I just remember during COVID every. My whole family, they were like, insane because they live in New York. They're, you know, and every. The whole world thought they were gonna die. I'm like, this is ridiculous. Like, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. And I remember, like, my mom wouldn't hug me. I'm like, I'm your kid. Even if I did have Covid, Like, I am your child. What are we doing here? What are we doing the whole world except Florida, you know, in Florida, we were just chilling over here. But everybody, everybody, we're dying.
- [53:37]
A
We're dying if we go in.
- [53:38]
B
And I'm like, this is in. This was so crazy. Like, the theory behind it was insane to me. So kudos to you though. It's just funny, like, listening to you. These are my belief systems without any, you know, without any. I, I've had that training in it, nothing. But I mean, I believe the same thing, like with the medicine and taking. Sure, I'll take a Tylenol here and there, whatever. But overall, like, I'm. I would say that dependency And I've seen people dependent on things. It just doesn't work out well. So I will try at any lengths not to take Tylenol if I don't have to, you know, or any kind of medication, to be honest with you. If I really don't have to, I just. I just wouldn't engage in it. Even antibiotics, like, I know they're good sometimes they work here and there, but if you take too many antibiotics, it's not gonna work either.
- [54:24]
A
So I've actually, fun fact about me, I've never taken a Tylenol or Advil in my entire life. And it's really just because I know the research on them, they're just not that effective. And they come with all sorts of shit. This is what I'm saying. It's just not a good deal. It's just not a good deal. If these medications were very effective, extremely, undeniably effective, and not just because you believe that they are okay, and they came with, like, a little bit of potential risk, that's one thing.
- [54:57]
B
Like.
- [54:58]
A
Or it was really clear that, you know, the risks are consistent and, you know, everybody saw them. But instead it's like this murky, like, grab bag of potential risks. Some are super severe. I mean, do you know how dangerous Tylenol is? Like, I'm never gonna.
- [55:14]
B
I took a leave. Isn't leave, okay, I'm not going to take anymore. I'll literally water. If I have a headache, I'll drink water.
- [55:20]
A
It's poisonous. And so you have a grab bag of risks and really meager potential benefit. One of my favorites is Ambien, right? Like sleep meds. Like, if I pulled people on the street, most people would be like, well, I'm sure it works. No, it doesn't actually. And the literature actually tells you the story, which is that medications like Ambien give you 15 minutes of additional sleep. However you think that you slept because you develop retrograde amnesia and you don't freaking remember what happened. We used to, at Bellevue in the er, we used to see people who got in their cars, did all sorts of crazy shit in this amnestic state, having just taken a routinely prescribed Ambien. So properly prescribed meds are the third leading cause of death, right? Like, these are. These are not like, oh, why not? Kind of things. And again, maybe it'd be worth the risk, the Russian roulette, if they were really effective, but they're just not. And I'll die on that hill because, you know, I love that.
- [56:21]
B
I love how strong you are about It. I love it because you see so many people take. You know, you ever walk in someone's house and they have, like, all this medicine, like, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and there's like, tons of shit in there. You're like, what is this for? I get the supplement thing, you know, because I. I get the natural supplement thing. I don't love the supplements. But you're, like, looking around and you're like. You're like, what's going. But here I'm going to switch gears and do something fun with you. I'm going to name a condition and you tell me. Disease or adaptation. Signal. Ready?
- [56:48]
A
Oh, I'm going to have only one answer.
- [56:51]
B
Major depressive order disorder.
- [56:55]
A
Yeah, that's an adaptation for sure. It's a response.
- [56:58]
B
Generalized anxiety disorder.
- [57:02]
A
Also. Also a relationship to your own perceived capacity.
- [57:07]
B
Bipolar disorder.
- [57:09]
A
That is also. So now we're getting more into the deeper fragmentation, trauma layers. That is an adaptation. Yeah.
- [57:17]
B
Postpartum depression.
- [57:19]
A
Oh, wow. I could go on and on about this, but all that I'll say is never in human history has a woman ever been alone with a baby before. And now it is so normalized that we think, you know, this is how women are supposed to raise babies and feel good about it and feel fine about it, let alone all of the inflammation, you know, that surfaces because of toxic body burden. So, yeah, that is absolutely a label for a normal response to abnormal conditions.
- [57:47]
B
Yeah. Plus your body is morphing and you're watching all of this stuff before your eyes. ADHD in a woman.
- [57:56]
A
So, yeah, this is one of the most. It's like a huge pet peeve of mine, but it's one of the topics that I. I find to be the least scientific and evidence based of all, because this is a. I'll quote Krishnamurti to say that it is no sign of health to be well adapted to a profoundly sick society. Right. So. And if you want to call yourself mentally ill because you are responding with inattention to things that are taxing your capacity to attend. Right. Like you can do that, but I don't believe that that is a disease.
- [58:33]
B
Yeah, fair enough. I could sit here and talk to you for hours about, you know, all of these, you know, all the labeling and the over. I haven't even gotten to insurance with you. What you think about the insurance companies in the Drug Administration. I'm afraid to even get into it. I mean, I'm in the insurance industry, so I know a lot about the insurance industry and how that works in, you know, in conjunction to the Drug companies and whatnot. But you, you really have such an amazing perspective and I love how unapologetic you are about it, regardless of, I'm sure, the trials and tribulations that you've experienced amongst your peers. But what is next for you? Because I know you have a whole lot of shit going on now and you have all of these amazing things going on. So what is next for you?
- [59:17]
A
Yeah, so everything we've talked about in this conversation is, is really just. It's kind of like a perma. Available. Offering, you know, my books. The protocol is there.
- [59:29]
B
Tell your books, all your books, because I'm gonna go. I have, I have a bunch of
- [59:34]
A
them, but most of them have this protocol I've alluded to, you know, to help reset your nervous system called Vital Mind Reset. And that protocol is, you know, online, it's available, it's got, you know, thousands of outcomes. It's, it's a vibe.
- [59:48]
B
So I'm gonna get all the links. So they have.
- [59:51]
A
Sure, for sure. So that's been kind of like, you know, that's a chapter of my life, I guess that I have, I guess in ways move, not moved on from, but like that's crystallized, right? Like it's there. And in more recent years, I've been so focused on, you know, the story of woman, right? Like what is it? If I was told a bunch of lies about what health is, like I probably was told a bunch of lies about relationships and what it is to be a woman today. And turns out it was. And that's a lot of my focus. So a lot of it is around feminine reclamation and embodiment and really supporting women in feeling safe in their relationships with their body, with their money, and of course with their spouse. I've become a real stand for marriage actually. And that may be surprising given my trajectory. But you certainly learn a lot from your innocent mistakes or maybe even not so innocent. And so I these days I have. Well, I have a live event in Miami in May, May 15th through 17th, called audacious embodiment, which is so fun. I have all of these different kinds of embodiment experiences and shadow work and of course dance and sensual movement. And it's only my second time doing this event and it was life changing the first time. And then like I said, I have this beauty offer coming out, beauty backroom, where I basically support women in a six month container. I haven't done one on one work in I don't even know how many years, like seven, eight years. And I'm inspired again because I'm so lit up about reverse aging and what it is to redefine, you know, that experience of mid-40s and, you know, what we are programmed to believe about ourselves. And so it's basically like a glow up boot camp where I deliver you after six months into your hot life as a. A midlife woman. So I love that.
- [61:47]
B
Maybe I'm gonna come. I want to do reverse aging. I want.
- [61:50]
A
I hope you need it. You're looking pretty good already. You got this. Oh, my God.
- [61:56]
B
You. I mean, really, it. Your daughters must be so proud of you and everything that you've accomplished. And I. I'm, like, in awe because I am into the. Not a feminist, but I'm definitely into woman empowerment, women empowerment. And the older that I get or the most more seasoned that I become. It is important for women to know who they are and, you know, know their inner truth and unapologetically just kind of be them. And their authenticity. We use that word. So, like, you know, we just kind of frivolously use that word authenticity. But it is important as you get older to come into this truth and this being. And I mean, I think you've been doing a great job of that, being your own self advocate as well as advocating for other women. It is important. We live in a society right now that labeling is a huge part of it, especially, you know, drugs. Here you go. You have this. Here you go. And, you know, coming out and speaking publicly, that. That's not. That's not the way. There's a. There's a ton of different ways. I mean, I'm a huge fan of exercise. I think exercise is the cure. I'll be all, I go to the gyms.
- [62:56]
A
Every.
- [62:57]
B
You know, I have a problem. I go to the gym. You know, I want to do this. I go to, I think the gym. I'm sick. I have some fever. I go to the gym. I mean, that's. I just think the gym is secure. I'll be all, I don't know. I'm not a doctor, but I just love that you really have come out and have publicly stated that, yes, drugs are there, but that's not necessarily the right way. There are so many other chemicals in there. And I've seen it in my own family. People become dependent on drugs, on prescription drugs that were prescribed to them by a doctor. So I'm just glad that you're advocating, really, a patient advocate. And that's what, as a doctor, you have a fiduciary responsibility to make sure that your, that your patients are in the best care and you are doing that. So kudos to you and all of your work that you've done. It really speaks volumes about what type of person you are and everything that you're doing.
- [63:44]
A
So thank you. It's such a pleasure chat, having this enthusiastic chat.
- [63:49]
B
I know I'm like, we had more time. I'd be, I'm, I'm like waiting to go off air to ask you a million questions. But if you watch today's episode with this beautiful, gorgeous doctor, I hope that you guys are, or you women out there are not afraid to speak up. I mean, I think you can see that Dr. Kelly Brogan, no matter what adversity was there, no matter who was saying what, she spoke up, regardless of what people were thinking and saying. And I absolutely love that you're not a villain. You're not a villain. So if you are ever teeter tottering between doing, you know, the, the acceptable thing or what everybody else wants you to do, I hope that you listen to today's episode knowing that the good thing or doing the right thing is not a sometimes thing, it's an all the time thing. And if you like today's episode, I urge you to tune in for some more. I don't know if anything's going to be as great as this conversation, but if you did like today's episode, like, subscribe, tell a friend, you know the deal.
- [64:45]
A
And if you know what, if you
- [64:46]
B
didn't like it, unsubscribe, just make a comment, tell us what you think. But until next time, Doctor, I appreciate you spending some time with me. I wish that we can have more time to talk all about the goodies and the way that we feel, because I have a lot to say.
- [65:00]
A
Thank you.
- [65:01]
B
Thanks for being on.