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- [00:01]
A
I ran out of the room in tears. So a little girl had been kidnapped by a s. Offender and. And buried alive. Her little finger had poked out of the bag trying to get air. She died in the, in the bag. Underground.
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B
The Menendez brothers. That's a cold blooded killers or abuse victims when they were first tried, I
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A
didn't believe the abuse.
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B
O.J. simpson. Scott Peterson, Welcome back to the Bill's pod where authenticity trumps authority. Now, today's guest, she does not know, but I stalked her because she is so interesting. I got to watch her analyze the case of Natalia Rose. She's been at cases such as Scott and Lacey Peterson, O.J. i mean, Kobe Bryant. I saw that. This woman is so interesting. And I am so, I'm like fangirling over here. I am so excited to welcome Beth Krass to the show. Welcome to the Bell 5.
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A
Well, thank you for having me. You did a little bit stalk me, but not really. I mean, you just wanted to talk. No. You wanted to, you did want to interview me. And I was like, okay, we'll make it happen.
- [01:27]
B
Yeah, Yeah, I appreciate it because my background, I was telling you before, I actually have a master's degree and an undergraduate degree in criminal justice.
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A
Oh, good for you. Yeah, great. I did not pursue that. I did not like criminal law in law school and vowed I would never practice criminal law. And that's all I've done.
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B
And I'm like, here you are, you analyze the, I mean, how does one. So my question, forget these cards. How does one become a criminal analyst and then go on tv? I have to know.
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A
So I think, you know, I was just kind of in the right place at the right. Because when I got into it, there were not a lot of lawyers on television yet. There were not a lot of platforms. There was no social media. And I started in television on the third anniversary of Court tv. So it was the only game in town to see a trial. There were no streamers. I mean, it was, it was the only place to go. So I happened to know the man who started Court DV because he had written an article. He was a writer, trained as a lawyer, but was a journalist. Owned a bunch of legal magazines and newspapers around the country. And the national one is called the American Lawyer. And he wrote an article about the criminal justice system in the late 1980s. I was practicing law just a few blocks from where we are seated right now in lower Manhattan, and I was up to my eyeballs in cases. I was only a third year assistant D.A. but I was just one of 500 in Manhattan alone. And I happened to be the person selected for him to follow around the office and into court and watch me. And he ended up writing this article, cover story of American Lawyer, about me. But that launched me. It was my 15 minutes of fame. But, I mean, I stayed in touch with him and he asked me to come to the network and audition and, you know, I became a reporter in 1994.
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B
That is incredible. And then eight years as a prosecutor.
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A
Yeah. I had been in the DA's office for eight years. Four years doing street crime and four years prosecuting political corruption and organized crime and sort of white collar stuff.
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B
Yeah. Which I'm sure, you know, like, when I think of my dream was like, I wanted to go and be a litigator. That was like the biggest thing, becoming a litigator. And I was going to defend everybody. That was like, what I thought, you know, like the next Aaron Brockvich. I'm going to be like this prominent attorney. But, you know, as a prosecutor that I feel like that's really hard. That's difficult because you kind of just have to, like. I feel like it's. You have to keep it even keel. You have to present the facts. Right. It's. You have to present beyond a reasonable doubt. So what is that? I mean, is that like conflicting morally for you, mentally? I mean, how do you separate that?
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A
Not at all. I consider myself more of a victim's advocate.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And so I took a lot of pride in my work as a prosecutor and my heart is still in that. Even though, of course, I do believe the system makes mistakes and, and there are people who are wrongfully convicted. But, you know, some people would say, and defense attorneys would beg to differ with you about it being difficult. They think, you know, prosecutors, they have the strength of, you know, the police departments, the backing of the state or whatever, you know, departments to help them gather the evidence. And they simply have to present the evidence as opposed to defending against it and trying to poke holes in it and, and showing where the Constitution was violated and rights were violated. So, you know, look, 95% of cases plead out. They don't even go to trial. You know, we are not in the business of arresting and prosecuting innocent people, but it does happen.
- [04:58]
B
Yeah, for sure. And I'm sure morally or sometimes. Look, we're all humans at the end of the day, and I'm sure sometimes you come across or you have. You came across in the past, maybe somebody that did commit a crime. Maybe they did and it was for A variety of reasons, I'm sure as a prosecutor, you're presenting the evidence, you know, in your heart, maybe this person can get. Have another chance. We all make mistakes. It's a difficult task.
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A
So. Yeah. And you can give somebody a break with a plea offer or a recommendation of a lower sentence, even if it's a top count plea or conviction. So you can, you know, show some mercy. But I always. My old boss, Robert Morgenthau, the late, great Robert Morgenthau, who was in office here in Manhattan for 35 years, he never made us try a case that we in our heart didn't believe in.
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B
Oh.
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A
So, I mean, there are some cases that are close. Right. It's like, I think he probably did it, but I don't know if we have the evidence. And I remember some of my colleagues not feeling like they could get up in front of a jury and say with conviction, you know, that you, you need to convict this person. So he would never make you try it if you didn't believe it.
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B
Oh, what a great man. Yeah.
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A
Oh, yeah. He was a good, great, great man. Yeah.
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B
So let's talk about Casey. Are you allowed to talk about Casey Anthony?
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A
Sure.
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B
Because that was, I mean, I remember when that happened. I was. What year was. I would think I was in college then. It was a huge thing.
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A
And it happened in 2008.
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B
Yeah. So I was getting my master's degree at UCF right down the street from what had happened. And you were there.
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A
Yep. I started showing up in Orlando in 2008, 9, 10, 11 there through the trial. I just remember Casey, once she got locked up, she was charged with murder before Kaylee's body was found. She was charged in October. And they were seeking. Well, they didn't seek death at that point. Once the remains were found a few months later in December, then they said, change circumstances, we're going to seek death. Which made it probably more difficult for them because, you know, they lost the prosecution, lost the case anyway. But, you know, jurors are going to be really tough on you if you are seeking to take someone's life. So, you know, I always felt that she was complicit in something. She got convicted of misdemeanors. Right. Lying to the police, that was a no brainer. But I always felt like she knew something more. I never bought the. She drowned in the.
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B
And the dad.
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A
And my father, you know, found her now.
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B
No, I don't think so. And I remember, I remember when that happened because my daughter was born and I just Remember thinking like, no, this is weird. Like, no. Mom acts like this is bizarre. Her whole reaction. I don't even know what happened to her. She didn't know.
- [07:37]
A
She's still around. I mean, she's. I actually haven't kept up with her, but she's. She's still around. I remember. I remember hearing that at one point she wanted to have a child. I don't think she had any other children, but she's around.
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B
I don't think she should have.
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A
She's taking some political positions, sort of, you know, liberal positions on some matters.
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B
Wow. Now, what really interests me is this case. So do you. First of all, do you get to meet the people that you're analyzing ever? Do you get to have conversations with them?
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A
Sometimes. When I was doing. When I was at Court TV for 19 years, I would. Of course, I got to know lawyers always. And, you know, sometimes interview jurors, witnesses. Not always a defendant. Sometimes the defendant depending upon if the person was locked up or not.
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B
Yeah. So you. So where I saw you that I was, like, blown away is this case of Natalie. I mean, the case in itself was in. It was the craziest story I'd ever heard in mind. I mean, I've tried to look her up, too, just like, to find out what happened after. So did you ever get to meet her or.
- [08:36]
A
No, I haven't met her. We've communicated, but I haven't met her yet.
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B
And what was your take on all of that?
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A
So, you know, during the three seasons, this was a story that kept unfolding. We thought it was going to be one season, and then we thought it was gonna be two seasons.
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B
Yeah, I saw.
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A
And then the man called with. After we delivered season two, I watched all of it. They called and said, we're done with her. This girl's tweaking or whatever. We're like, what? I guess we got more of the story to tell. And there were times when the producers would learn something and they wouldn't tell me in advance. I'm sitting down for an interview because I sat down for many interviews for each season.
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B
Yeah.
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A
It wasn't like one interview that stretched over six episodes. It would be maybe four, Right? Four. And they would give me a document. They're rolling on me, and I'm reading it, and I'm learning something new, some new development. Because it was an unfolding story. It wasn't. Most stories we tell are in the past, Right. Rarely are we telling, like, an ongoing story because we're not doing news. But this was an Ongoing story. So my reaction on air is very genuine. I'm like, what, what did you just say? I mean, I mean. And I would be so expressive, you know, because I was genuinely reacting to new information. They did that to me on purpose.
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B
Oh my. So where is she now?
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A
I know she was living in upstate New York, but I don't believe she's here anymore.
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B
What a. Just the whole story was insane. She was re aged living by herself at what, 12 years old?
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A
Younger. She was about 9 when she was on her own in an apartment that is designed for an able bodied person of like a regular height, not a little person. So she's nine. Hard enough for a nine year old who doesn't have a disability because she had a type of dwarfism that or she needed surgery, you know, so the sink is high, the stove is high, everything's high. And she doesn't have, she has no education, she has no training in cooking for herself. Personal hygiene. Can you imagine a nine year old child on their own in an apartment?
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B
No. Like my son. Never. No way.
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A
Well, that's what happened to her.
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B
You can only make yogurt.
- [10:49]
A
She's been re aged in the federal system. They brought her back to her original birth date of 2003, the year 2003. But not in the state of Indiana. Not yet. They still say, you know, in the records that she was born in 1989. The judge just backed her up to 1989, which means the biological mother that we found, well, the authorities found in Ukraine. If she had Natalia in 1989 would have been like. I think I did the math, something like 10 or 12 or something.
- [11:18]
B
That is that. Wow. I, I mean that case in itself. So you, that, that was a crazy one. And then Jodi Arias, you didn't, you did some.
- [11:26]
A
Yeah, I did. Jodi Aries's case, actually she was tried twice because the second trial was a retrial of the penalty phase. The, the state of Arizona sought death against her. But you only get two shots at the death penalty in Arizona and if you miss it both times, it's a, it's a. The judge decides a natural life sentence. So she's, she's in prison in Arizona. That was pretty wild. Like some people feel like Jodi Arias's case was the first one to really like explode on social media. I'm. I don't know. It is one of the first. That was 2013. One of the first. I mean Twitter had been around since 2005. Facebook was established around 2004. But I remember, I was tweet. It was Twitter. Then I was tweeting during the trial as well as reporting outside. But I'm sitting in the court, my tweet and my followers just exploded. So I noticed it during that trial. And social media went crazy on the defense witnesses. A domestic violence expert was. She was doxed and harassed and one star ratings on her book on Amazon, even though people never. They didn't read it, they just gave her one star ratings to the point where she had a panic attack to the hospital the night before testifying.
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B
That. And then your job in this is just to report on it.
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A
Yeah, I was just a reporter, straight reporter. Not take, not opining about anything. I have a little more wiggle room today because I'm not a straight reporter. So I can actually opine.
- [12:58]
B
Now, when you, when you do report on it, what do the lawyers say? Do they get annoyed? Because I. I think you just present. I mean, when I watch you, you just presented the facts.
- [13:06]
A
Yeah, I'm just presenting the facts. No, no. The lawyers were always very gracious with me. I never found I had any problems with the lawyers. Fact, they would tell me, look, you know, you speak to us on a level that other journalists don't, because you used to be in the trenches. You used to be a trial attorney. So, like, I also didn't need to necessarily ask them questions that other reporters might. I could go outside and get on the air and say, okay, so that objection that the defense just made and the judge overruled, here's why. And I could explain it, which makes
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B
it so much easier instead of just, you know, kind of reporting and not having the full story. And that, that is exactly why I was so interested, because you were explaining both sides. You spoke on both end, like, well, here's this side. And you can also see it on this side. And I guess that would run along. Same thing with O.J. simpson.
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A
You know, I wasn't. I was at O.J. he had three trials.
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B
Yes, I know.
- [13:56]
A
Allies, murder, Miami, road rage, Las Vegas hotel. So I was at Miami and Las Vegas. I had just started, in fact, when I gave my resignation letter to Robert Morgenthau down the street. It was May 1994, with my start date at Court TV of June 27, 1994. In between those dates, OJ got arrested.
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B
Smart.
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A
Yeah. So I was brand new. And I. So I wasn't assigned. I had to learn television. So two other reporters went out to L. A. And covered his trial.
- [14:26]
B
Geez. Gotta love. Who doesn't love O.J. i can't. All right, let's have a little fun. Are you ready? So I'm going to name some of the most controversial cases, and you tell me guilty or not guilty based on the evidence, not the verdict. And why. Are you ready?
- [14:41]
A
Oh, wait. Okay. Okay. Oh, no. Okay. If I can't answer, I just.
- [14:48]
B
I was just saying. Yeah, I'm not gonna answer. All right. Casey Anthony, did she murder Kaylee?
- [14:54]
A
Not clear. She actually murdered her, but she knows more than she ever admitted. Yeah.
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B
O.J. simpson, criminal trial. Did he kill Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman?
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A
Yes.
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B
This case is out of control. Robert Blake, did he kill his wife, Bonnie Lee Blake Bakley.
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A
Unclear, but behind it. It. He was behind it. I agreed with the jury when they said we couldn't put the gun in his hand. He wasn't charged as an accomplice. He was charged as the actual shooter. But it's hard to believe he didn't have something to do with it.
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B
It's always right. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Scott Peterson, did he kill Lacey and their unborn son Connor?
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A
Yes.
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B
Yeah, definitely. Especially if you've seen that Kobe Bryant, rape accusations. Oh, I love Kobe.
- [15:38]
A
Oh, boy. So, like, it's. It was. It was consensual up to a point. This accuser knew there was a risk going to his room, wanted his autograph, kissed him, and then things got out of hand. So, you know, if you believe her story. Yeah, he raped her. But it's a he said, she said, and she crumbled. They did a mock cross examination. That's why they dismissed the charges. She crumbled in a mock cross examination? Apparently. So she wouldn't have been able to stand up to cross examination even if it's true.
- [16:08]
B
That kills me. Listen, I think it's terrible when women get raped, but I also think it's terrible when you throw that word around.
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A
Yep.
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B
I think it's awful. Like the Bill Cosby thing that kill. I don't like that. Phil Spector, did he murder Lana Clarkson?
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A
Yes.
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B
Drew Peterson, did he kill his third wife?
- [16:27]
A
Well, his third wife is the one he's in prison for. The fourth wife is the one who's missing Stacy. So his third wife? Yeah, that's the one he was convicted of. I believe he drowned her in the tub. The fourth wife is Stacy. She was probably carried out of the house in a blue barrel, and she. Yeah, he probably did.
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B
I think he's. There's definitely something going. Amanda Knox, guilty or wrongfully convicted?
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A
Wrongfully convicted.
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B
Oh, okay. The Menendez brothers. That's a cold blooded Killers or abuse victims.
- [16:56]
A
When it, when they were first tried, I didn't believe the abuse, abuse allegations. But today I do. Okay. I've since educated myself, learned more. I was a prosecuting attorney when they were, I was down the street in court. I wasn't following the trial and I was like, oh, please. But I have totally changed and I, I do believe that they were abused.
- [17:15]
B
I do too. Because it's not just one brother. What's the statistics that two brothers felt the exact same way about their parents? Like, I don't know, I'm not a lawyer, but I just feel like it's
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A
just too, I mean they've, they've served a lot of time. I don't know if they'll ever get out, but if they were to get out, I wouldn't lose any sleepover. It would be okay.
- [17:35]
B
Yeah. If you could retry one case with new evidence or a different jury, which case would it be and why?
- [17:41]
A
Of what? Of the case I've covered or with a different jury, which case would it be and why? You know, this would be a case I covered years ago. I covered a case in Springfield, Missouri and it was a teacher, a man charged with killing his wife and his six year old and toddler, like a one or two year old, bashed his son's head in, strangled the toddler with the, the drape cord, bashed his wife and turned the heat up on the waterbed, posing her so she decomposed faster.
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B
Great.
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A
And then went back to the teacher's conference that he was at, which was some hours away. So he did it in the middle of the night. It was the allegation and I just, well, I don't, I don't know that they had enough evidence because a crucial witness kind of fell apart that, you know, but I always felt he got away with murder. He was coquitted and, and I talked to the jurors afterwards and they said, you know, he probably did it. We just didn't think there was enough. That's a case that stayed with me. I don't know if it was retried, it would ever have been a different result. But I felt like he really did get away with murder.
- [18:55]
B
That's awful. So did OJ the first time he did too. It's terrible. It's really.
- [19:01]
A
OJ Got. OJ Got away with murder. His life was really pretty bad after that, but yeah, he was free.
- [19:08]
B
Have you ever had like an emotional attachment to a case?
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A
Yeah, I, Well, I Actually broke down once, but it was outside. It wasn't in court. A little girl had been kidnapped by a sex offender from her father's mobile home and raped and buried alive in Double or Florida. It was northern northwest Florida, like south of the Panhandle. Indian river county, maybe, or something. Anyway, he was tried in Miami. But when the media was shown, the photos that the jury saw weren't displayed to the courtroom. And we did not put them on tv, but they laid them out. And when I saw her and the bag and her little finger had poked out of the bag trying to get air. She died in the, in the bag underground, that I ran out of the room in tears.
- [20:06]
B
That's awful.
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A
So.
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B
Wow. That is insane. So question for you, what's next? I mean, you're doing legal. Are you doing more?
- [20:15]
A
Okay, so I'm very excited. All sorts of things. All right. So I did three seasons with Investigation Discovery of the Curious Case of Natalia Grace. And as a result of that, I got a spin off show called the Curious Case of. We're in season two right now airing. It's on Investigation Discovery on Mondays. Episode 5 will come out on February 16th at 10 o'. Clock. 9 o'. Clock. Oh dear. It's only an hour. I think it's 10 o'. Clock. But it also streams on HBO Max. So it all streams on HBO Max. The two seasons of Curious, KSOB and Natalia Grace. Then I am also hosting a podcast podcast that's in development. It'll be, it'll drop soon for Sony Music Entertainment. It's a true crime story. It's a six episode true crime story. Probably can't say too much more yet because it's not public yet. And I feel like there's more, there's more down the pike, but I can't talk about it yet.
- [21:10]
B
You're doing so many amazing things.
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A
February 20th. I'm on 2020 because I. I'm a contributor to ABC's 20 20.
- [21:17]
B
Is there anything you don't do?
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A
I haven't written a book.
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B
You haven't written a.
- [21:21]
A
No, I don't have the bandwidth. I don't think I'm that good a writer.
- [21:25]
B
Who's gonna read this writer who's gonna read a book? I think people listen to your audiobook. I really find you extremely interesting.
- [21:31]
A
Really?
- [21:31]
B
Yes. I'm telling you, I'm not captivated by that many people. But yeah, I'm serious and I meet a lot, I meet a lot of interesting people. But I think just the way that you tell the story, I Mean in itself. You're like, you're a storyteller. I mean, and it's great. You have a gift. Not only are you like, you know, legal, legally, you're professionally as far as like your background, but your storytelling ability is incredible.
- [21:53]
A
You're so kind.
- [21:54]
B
I mean, very much. I would not. I've never ever stalked anybody. I'm like, we have to find Beth. Like we have, I would call it. I'm like, kaylee, we have to find her. I'm like, she. The way that she just like unfolded this story just kept me captivated the entire time that I ended up watching. I got involved with this show three season. I don't even watch tv.
- [22:12]
A
Well, and it does grab you, Natalia Grace, right? I know one person I know when she learned about it, she stayed up all night and watched it.
- [22:19]
B
That's what happened to me. That's exactly. I binge watched this whole thing. And then my husband was like, there's more. I'm like, there's more. And I watched more of them. I was just watching all of it. It was incred. It was so crazy. So now you just do the legal analyzing. You don't do any. Like you're not trying cases anymore? Nothing?
- [22:34]
A
No, no, I'm not practicing. I'm still a licensed attorney, but inactive. I'm not practicing, but I kept licensed because I worked very hard to get that license. I wasn't giving it up. And it's a fallback. Right. It just didn't work out. You know, the television stuff up. I can go back and practice law that.
- [22:50]
B
It's incredible. It really just watching. You're such a boss. And that's what Bill stands for. Boss. I'd like to follow. I would follow. I would follow you. I think I've really just an inspiration maybe because I wanted to be attorney at heart, but just, you know, you took your skills. I love it. It's a people oriented business television. So you're able to connect with your audience. I love all of the exposure and I, and I mean I'm. I like to see all these things too. Like I'm so, I'm watching this. What's the, the, the nurse from the
- [23:16]
A
uk, what's her name, who's on trial?
- [23:20]
B
She. I think she's innocent. I don't know. They don't know. Some. I don't know, big story right now. She's a, she was a nurse and all these babies died in the uk.
- [23:31]
A
Oh yeah. Okay.
- [23:32]
B
Lambert.
- [23:33]
A
Yes, I did see that. I haven't been following it. Closely. But I gotta. I have to take a look. It's.
- [23:37]
B
It is.
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A
So she might actually be.
- [23:40]
B
She might. I think that something's going on with the hospital. Something's weird. I don't know what. Something strange you have to watch. You. Okay, you can analyze that. Call them. I can call them your next gig.
- [23:49]
A
All right, Deal.
- [23:51]
B
Where can people find you if they want to find you?
- [23:54]
A
So isn't. I will admit I'm not great about social media, but I do have an X account. It's just at Bethkarras and Instagram. I think it's BethKarras1. And Facebook, LinkedIn. I mean, it's just my name. Yeah, nothing. Nothing's special. Nothing. Beth Caris TV or anything like that. Just my name.
- [24:13]
B
And then we'll see. I'm sure we'll see you. I know you already said 2020. I'm sure there'll be so many more amazing shows that you're going to be on too.
- [24:19]
A
Well, we'll see. Well, Investigation Discovery, HBO, Max for now and 2020.
- [24:23]
B
You have a lot going on. A ton of things. I mean, if you did not enjoy today's episode, I don't know what you're doing, but I'm sure you love today's episode. So hit that like and subscribe. And you know what? If you didn't like it, you can unsubscribe as well. But if you want to see more interesting. I don't think as interesting. I think you're the most. Stay tuned. We have a ton more episodes airing in the near future. But if you didn't get the message today, I mean, Beth is really a jack of all trades. She's a lawyer. She took that went into television. I mean, just doing amazing things. And you know, my challenge for you is just be amazing. Think about something that you want to do and execute on it. It's never too late. Beth is doing incredible things. Analyzing meeting. I mean, just doing it all. So next time, I look forward to seeing all of you guys back on the BILF pod. Thanks, Beth.
- [25:10]
A
Thank you.