The Screen Time Debate: What Parents Need to Know

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Bill and Giuliana: The Podcast

Episode: The Screen Time Debate: What Parents Need to Know
Date: July 17, 2026
Guest: Mike McLeod (Author of The Executive Function Playbook; Child Development Specialist)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Bill and Giuliana tackle one of parenting’s hottest topics: the effects of screen time on kids. Joined by renowned child development expert and executive function coach Mike McLeod, they leave no stone unturned. The trio digs into urgent questions: How much screen time is too much? Is there any “good” screen time? What is the real impact on developing brains, particularly for kids with ADHD? And, crucially, what can parents actually do about it—especially when it feels like everyone’s already addicted? McLeod offers unsparing insights, actionable advice, and a reality check about both the cultural forces at play and everyday family routines.

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Key Insights and Discussion Points

1. The Scope and Severity of the Screen Time Problem

• McLeod pulls no punches: Screen time is not just a minor issue; it’s a full-blown epidemic:

  “It's just one of these things that we're just clearly turning a blind eye towards... most parents are addicted now, so they feel very guilty removing their own kids' screen time.” — Mike McLeod (04:01)

• Parents often overlook their own addiction, creating a cycle of guilt and permissiveness.
• Big Tech is acutely aware that children, especially neurodiverse kids, are the most lucrative customers:

  “You can't mention ADHD in 2026 without also mentioning an incredibly debilitating screen addiction. It goes hand in hand when your brain is already hardwired towards instant gratification and you're very impulsive.” — Mike McLeod (05:13)

• The internet is described as “the most disgusting, unregulated place in human history,” yet many parents allow their children unsupervised access.

Memorable Quote

“We live in a world now where we're too scared to send our kids, you know, 20 minutes down the road to the store, but we'll give them open access to the Internet behind closed doors.” — Mike McLeod (05:29)

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2. The Modern Parenting Dilemmas

• Fear is a key driver: Many parents fear the backlash (tantrums, withdrawal) if they impose restrictions.
• Bill and Giuliana openly recognize their own screen habits and those of their household.
• Parental solidarity is crucial for enforcement:

  “If I'm going to eliminate screen time, I need two or three other families on my block in my kids' class to do it with me.” — Mike McLeod (10:15)

• Peer and cultural pressure (e.g., "all my friends have a phone") is Big Tech’s greatest tool.

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3. ‘Good’ Screen Time vs. ‘Bad’ Screen Time

• No, educational or passive screen time isn't a magic loophole:

  “This is exactly what Big Tech wants, is they want parents to convince themselves of why the screens are okay.” — Mike McLeod (14:47)

• The addiction isn't just to "screens" but to the internet and instant gratification content:

  “Smartphones did not become addictive until they got connected to the Internet... Flip phones are not addictive.” — Mike McLeod (16:03)

Key Distinction

Screen time = any device with internet access (not just phones or gaming consoles).

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4. Guidelines: How Much Screen Time is OK?

• Negotiation is not the answer:

  “The last thing you want to do is have a negotiation. Because very few parents have the willpower to win a screen time negotiation. It needs to be a very, very clear, structured thing of: you get your access to it after a long list of things are completed, including at least an hour of outdoor time.” — Mike McLeod (17:23)

• Outdoor activity, socialization, and chores should be prerequisites to any screen time.
• Behavior after screen time is also key data:

  “How about the behaviors you see after the screen time or the behaviors you see when screens are not available to them? ... My brain can’t handle this level of stimulation you gave me. Too many screens too soon.” — Mike McLeod (18:57)

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5. Parental Example is Everything

• Children will mimic what they see. If parents are glued to screens, so will kids.
• Catch yourself rationalizing your own phone use in front of your children.

  “If you instantly rationalize it, oh, but I'm doing work things... The second you try to tell yourself that, that should be the biggest red flag of, okay, I need to calm down a little bit.” — Mike McLeod (20:52)

• In-car phone use, even when stopped, can be a powerful negative role model.

Memorable Moment

Juliana shares how children internalize adult behaviors behind the wheel:

“They take all of that, right? And they take it into their adult life, and then the next thing you know, they're texting and driving...” — Juliana (21:31)

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6. Set Clear, Non-Negotiable Rules

• Not about finding the “right number of minutes”—it’s about structure:

  “It's not a negotiation. It's the rules. Basically. The rules, right. You're telling your kid, here are the rules in our home, when it comes to screen time, this is what you need to do. And you establish that as a parent.” — Juliana (23:01)

• Avoid the “best friend” parenting trap; being “cool” is not the objective.

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7. Delay, Delay, Delay

• Delaying the introduction of phones (especially smartphones) is the main prescription:

  “Delay, delay, delay as much as humanly possible. You know, we have to recognize that the second you bring a phone into a child's Life, it becomes the center of their life, and everything else is going to fail in comparison.” — Mike McLeod (27:52)

• Most adults would throw their phones in the ocean—why expect kids to handle it better?
• The brain develops until age 30. Kids with “half a brain” (in development terms) cannot handle the addictive properties of internet-connected devices.

Notable Guidance

• Dumb phones, flip phones, and other limited devices are available as alternatives for safety without internet access.
• Focus on “internet access,” not just the presence of a screen.

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8. The Appropriate ‘Age’ for a Smartphone

• Recommendation: No smartphone until at least junior or senior year of high school.

  “They should not be getting their own smartphone until they're probably a junior or senior in high school.” — Mike McLeod (31:09)

• Internet bans are not fully realistic, but access should be delayed as long as possible and kept as minimal as makes sense for each child.

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9. Addressing Peer Pressure: “All My Friends Have One!”

• Hold the line; reference your own upbringing if needed.

  “Well, your friends can do whatever they want. Their parents can do whatever they want, but you live in our house, and you're our daughter, and this is the way we do it.” — Juliana (33:31)

• Don’t over-explain or negotiate—keep it simple and firm.

  “Too many words.” — Mike McLeod, on how to answer “But my friends…” (34:22)

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Essential Episode Timestamps

• [03:53] – Introduction of Mike McLeod and framing the addiction issue
• [04:33] – Reality check: why screens are so dangerous, especially for ADHD kids
• [08:06] – Debunking the “teach balance” myth; importance of community/solidarity
• [13:23] – Real-life examples from Bill and Giuliana’s family
• [14:47] – Is educational or passive screen time “better”? (Spoiler: Not really)
• [17:23] – Setting rules, not negotiating; prerequisites to screen use
• [20:52] – Parents’ modeling of screen behaviors
• [27:52] – Core advice: Delay device use; impact of the “Anxious Generation”
• [31:09] – Suggested minimum age for a smartphone
• [33:31] – Addressing the “all my friends” argument

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Conclusion: Key Takeaways for Parents

• Don’t be fooled: screen time is not innocuous, and “good screen time” is often a rationalization.
• Screen addiction is about unfettered internet access, not just screens themselves.
• Delay as much as you can—and empower yourself with both household rules and neighborly solidarity.
• Parental example is the front line: curb your own behavior before expecting it from your kids.
• Set non-negotiable, clear rules; don’t try to be the “cool” or “best friend” parent.
• In the end, it’s okay (in fact, healthy) to tell your kids, “In our house, this is how we do it.”

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For deeper strategies, parents are encouraged to check out Mike McLeod’s book, The Executive Function Playbook.

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Transcript

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[Bill]

Welcome to Bill and Juliana the Podcast.

[Juliana]

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Bill and Juliana the Podcast. Today we are talking to an expert in screen time. He's also an expert in executive functioning, ADHD, child development. He's worked with families for over 20 years. His name is Mike McLeod. He is an author. He has a book out right now. It's called the Executive Function Playbook. And he's great. Right, Bill?

[Bill]

Love him. What I really like about Mike is he makes it really easy to understand. He breaks it down for you in just simple, easy steps to make your life better and your kid's life better.

[Juliana]

Yeah. And he doesn't sugarcoat anything. So we're gonna get to the bottom of screen time, how much is too much, and what you can do as a parent, and his advice for all of it. So please welcome Mike McLeod.

[Bill]

Welcome, Mike.

[Mike McLeod]

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited.

[Juliana]

I mean, I see so many of your videos and so much focus is on screen time. And you think that is a real problem, correct?

[Kia Advertiser]

It is.

[Mike McLeod]

It is an absolute fact. It's a real problem. It's just one of these things that we're just clearly turning a blind eye towards it for many different reasons. You know, number one, most parents are addicted now, so they feel kind of. They feel very guilty removing their own kids. Screen time.

[Bill]

You're looking at one over there.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah, well.

[Bill]

Well, she was on her phone nine hours yesterday.

[Juliana]

Okay. It's not about me.

[Mike McLeod]

Well, a lot of dogs have been saved because of that screen time.

[Bill]

That is true.

[Juliana]

Thank you.

[Mike McLeod]

There you go. That's why I put that dog back there for you.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Juliana]

Thank you. I saw.

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

But.

[Mike McLeod]

But that's exactly it. So, number one, parents are addicted to. And then number two, let's be honest, it's fear. So we're at the point right now where there is so much research, so much data that brain rot is real. Digital dementia is real. Screens make parenting harder. It's horrible for kids. Like, just so bad in every possible way that parents know if I remove the screen time they already have, they're going to withdraw and act like addicts and they're going to trash my house and physically attack me, and it's going to be horrible, terrifying. So that fear causes them to keep the screens in their lives. But there's. There's no. There's no if, ands, or buts about this. Like, someone needs to come out and be brutally honest about screen use because, you know, as soon as Big Tech realized we're going to make the majority of our money off of kids, especially our neurodiverse kids. You can't, you can't mention ADHD in 2026 without also mentioning an incredibly debilitating screen addiction. It goes hand in hand when your brain is already hardwired towards instant gratification and you're very impulsive. That word impulsive, that's so synonymous with adhd, that's. You're already naturally that way with the. With the brain you were born with. And then a screen comes into your life. There's no way you're going to be able to regulate it. And throughout all my years, I've worked with so many kids with ADHD that were, you know, on their way to become the valedictorian. They were on the swim team, they were on the golf team. They had tons of friends. They get the phone and everything. Just, you know, all of a sudden they're in their room for hours behind closed doors doing whatever. And we live in a world now where we're too scared to send our kids, you know, 20 minutes down the road to the store, but we'll give them open access to the Internet behind closed doors. The Internet is the most disgusting, unregulated place in human history, and we just let kids surf it. Like, we see how people act on social media. You guys have seen it. It's the most. It's the most racist, anti semitic, every phobia you can possibly imagine. And we give kids access to it. And now, Ed, Big Tech has also taken over our schools where kids are watching hours of YouTube at school. It's really, really sad what they've done. And our ADHD kids are the biggest victim of Big Tech's predatory marketing.

[Bill]

Well, they're. They're stealing. I mean, they're not stealing it. It's part of the contract we signed with them. But all the data.

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

Yeah.

[Bill]

You know, so that's where the real. That's where the real theft is occurring.

[Juliana]

Mike, you putting it that way is like, oh, my gosh, it's so scary. It's shocking because when you were saying the Internet's such an awful place, you know, immediately, like our generation, our mind goes to, like, adult content. But you're right, like, the messaging, just everything about hate, and it's like, bigger than even just that, you know, it's just the. All of it is out there, and you forget, like, you don't even think, like, and everyone's like, my kid Wouldn't look at that. My kid and his friends are so great. My kid's friends don't do that. But we all think that until you see, it's like, oh, wait a second, it was my kid and it was his friends or her friends. And it's really terrifying. So all of that said, what is the solution? What do we do in this day and age where it has, you know, it's like, it's not like just beginning social media and technology. It's here, you know, and so we're in it and we're in it deep. So how do we do this? Like, what is the appropriate time for a kid to be on a screen and how do we do it? What do we do?

[Mike McLeod]

That's exactly it.

[Juliana]

What do we do? I need the answer.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah, it's really terrifying. So number one, the last thing any parent needs to do is wave the white flag to big tech and just give up. And all of a sudden say, oh, we're in this screen filled world. We have to give them access to it now so they can learn the skills to balance. That is the biggest parenting pipe dream of today's day and age is give them the phone now so they can learn to balance it for later. That is not going to happen. That's under that same mindset. We should let them drive every day until they turn 18 so they can learn to drive. Give them, give them a little bit of alcohol every day so they can be ready when they're turned 21. It does, it makes no sense. It's not going to happen. There is no, especially if they have adhd. This concept of a balance or skills to balance, it's. You need to throw that out because it's not going to happen. Um, so number two, I mentioned earlier, parents are also very, very addicted. And if you remember back in the day, we used to know other families in our neighborhood. We like when you would send your kids outside to play, you weren't nervous about something happening to them. Because we knew the people in our neighborhoods, they would watch each other, they'd be out doing things.

[Bill]

There was a sense of community.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah. Now we're all staying home so much because we have all the convenience of just, just order on Amazon or check this or get doordash do this. So we're just home too much and we're around our kids too much like they're an annoying roommate who never leaves. They're just always there and they're not going outside and playing anymore. So the parents are. Don't have the connections with others. But this is all about strength in numbers. Because what happens as soon as you go to your kid and say, I need to cancel your phone plan, I need to get rid of Your Xbox, your PlayStation or your iPad? The first thing is you're the worst parent ever. None of my friends, parents do this. You're ruining my life. I'm going to lose all my friends. And this is exactly what Big Tech wants is this incredible social pressure of if you don't buy your kids the nicest, best things, you're failing your kids. So Big Tech tells us every day, get your kid a phone. It'll make them safe, smart and social. But we now have an entire decade of decade of research and data to tell us it does not do that. It makes them depressed, which is a fact. Depressed, dormant and dependent and far more antisocial. So we need strength in numbers and parents need to interact with each other. And if I'm going to eliminate screen time, I need two or three other families on my block in my kids class to do it with me.

[Juliana]

Wow.

[Bill]

Yeah, you've got to have solidarity.

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[Juliana]

And screen time includes not just the phone. I mean, okay, so in our house, when Duke is not on the phone. And by the way, Duke supposedly is not on Snapchat or Instagram, so we have to dig in.

[Bill]

I check his phone.

[Juliana]

I mean, we look at it. Yeah, I know. And he says he's not, but I feel like some kids hide.

[Bill]

I'll have Ava give it a look. She's a techie. So Ava and I, we're giving you his phone.

[Juliana]

Ava, she's young. She'll figure it out. So that is one thing. But then, you know, we see him on his phone and he is has like group texts with his friends, but then he also mostly is like looking at cars online and like, I guess it's like the Internet, right? And yeah, but when he's not on it, more like, hey, Duke, get off your phone. Then he's on YouTube watching Ryan Trahan and all these guys and you know, and I, I watch them with Duke and I think, okay, well, this is better than being on his phone.

[Bill]

Or watching better screen time. They're learning. Like, I think I'm curious what Mike

[Juliana]

thinks, because Bill, I think the same thing. Like, so I think to myself, oh, well, he's not on his PlayStation, right? He's not playing a video game and he's not staring at a phone three inches from his face. Surely this is better. He's watching a TV from far away and it's YouTube and they're doing like hotel reviews and fun stuff. And I'm actually very entertained by ryan Trahan and Mr. Beast and these guys. Is that better or not so much?

[Mike McLeod]

So this is exactly what Big Tech wants, is they want parents to convince themselves of why the screens are okay. Like, it's okay if he plays Minecraft for five hours. He's building beautiful things.

[Bill]

Or it's okay if he plays my hand coordination skills.

[Mike McLeod]

Oh, yeah, it's okay if he plays Fortnite for all night long and doesn't even sleep because he's talking to his friends. And it's a social experience.

[Kia Advertiser]

Right?

[Mike McLeod]

It's, it's completely, it's ridiculous. So, you know, we, we throw this term screens around all the time, but in reality, it's the Internet. Anything that gives kids access to the Internet, it's not a screen addiction. It's an Internet addiction because YouTub just, you know, yeah, it'll have ads pop up that you can skip in 10 seconds, but it's just short form content being thrown at you. Especially if he's doing the YouTube shorts. Just up and down, up and down, all those kinds of things. So it's that instant access to whatever you want, you know, like, like just the other day I was thinking about when I drive my daughter to her school every day, she now has the ability to scream at me of, daddy, play this song. Daddy, play that song. And I could do it right away. When I was a kid being driven to school by my parents, I had to listen to whatever was on the radio and just sit there and kind of do it. This era of just instant convenience. Yeah, get that gratification. Is there so anything. So smartphones did not become addictive until they got connected to the Internet. And calling it a phone is all part of Big Tech's marketing plan. Phones are social. Phones are calls and texts. Let's be honest, that Apple iPhone we all have now is stronger than any computer we had in college. It's an, it's a supercomputer in your pocket at all times. So it's the Internet that's a problem. Flip phones are not addictive. Video games did not become addictive until they got connected to the Internet like Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft, you know, parents were not kids were not trashing their parents house over Super Mario and Zelda and all these different things. So it's the Internet and that provides the endless loops, things that were specifically made with persuasive design where they hire teams of psychologists of how do we make this as addictive as possible? Just like they said in that lawsuit against Meta, it was, you know, behind the scenes they were saying we're basically pushers, we're basically drug dealers, we're basically selling kids drugs. And that's exactly what the Internet is doing. It's grabbing their attention.

[Juliana]

So what is a normal amount of time for kids to be on screens? Is there a normal amount of time? And also is that part of a negotiation? Like for instance, it's a reward instead of just something expected every single day?

[Mike McLeod]

Well, it's definitely not to be expected and there's definitely not a negotiation. The last thing you want to do is have a negotiation. Because very few parents have the willpower to win a screen time negotiation. It needs to be a very, very clear, structured thing of you get your access to it after a long list of things are completed, including at least an hour of outdoor time. That's the biggest thing. So parents will do like, you know, wash the bathroom, you know, do your laundry, do this. No, you need to add outdoor play, social play. Did you play with your friend face to face after school today? No. Then I'm not. You're not getting your screens. It's as simple as that. And you know, every screen is different. Not all screens are created equal and every single kid is different. Sure, I have met the very few amount the 1% of ADHD kids that can handle screens. But there's a big thing on Instagram, on parenting social media that says all behavior is communication. But we only want to believe that when it's warm and fuzzy like oh, he just needs more. It's a connection seeking behavior. He just needs more hugs and kisses and me to get on his level and to co regulate. So we only want to believe that when it makes us feel good. But how about the flip side of it? How about the behaviors you see after the screen time or the behaviors you see when screens are not available to them? That behavior is communication too. And that behavior is communicating. Hey mom and dad. My brain can't handle this level of stimulation you gave me. Too many screens too soon. I can't handle this. When this is in my life, I have no desire to do anything else. So no kid's gonna come to their mom and dad and say, hey, I think you need to cancel my phone, or can you please sell my iPad? They're not gonna do that. They're gonna tell you through their dysregulation.

[Juliana]

Interesting. Yeah, no, you're right. And I. And I think, going back to. I like what you said earlier, too, is that with screens, like, we allow it. We're allowing it too much, and we need to start looking at screens differently, like, for what they really are, right? They're not just this, like, little innocent thing that we can handle. By the way, we're adults, and we can't even handle it. Most of us are addicted to our screens, even as adults. But what I was gonna say is, I loved what you said. Like, kids will literally go nuts towards their parents if the parents just walk in one day and are like, screens are out. Like, a kid will lose their marbles these days. And that's why so few parents are scared to do anything like that, because their kids will lose it. Right? So what I'm saying, though, is that.

[Bill]

But we almost.

[Juliana]

I like what you said before, Mike, because it made me think. I'm like, gosh, it's so true, though. Like, back in the day, when we were young, like, if our parents came home now, this is, like, the equivalent of, like, us coming home and dukes on a screen. If our parents came home and we were, like, doing drugs, right? Like smoking something or something, like, our parents wouldn't just be like, oh, God. Well, I'm not gonna stop her because she's gonna be so upset if I stop her. Like, you have to look at the big picture as a parent and go, this is not good for her health, and I need to help. I need to figure this out.

[Bill]

But they watch the parents, right? So if the parents are smoking weed or whatever, they're gonna do it. So the parents need to cut back 100%. If the kid sees the mom or the dad glued to the screen the whole time.

[Juliana]

Yes.

[Bill]

You know, it's good enough for my mom and dad. It's good enough for me.

[Juliana]

I know what you're saying. I'm gonna cut back.

[Mike McLeod]

No, I'm not pointing fingers.

[Juliana]

No, no. I know what you mean, though. You're absolutely right.

[Bill]

I think you have to lead by example.

[Mike McLeod]

That's exactly it is. Is. Yeah. If you're a parent on your phone in front of your kids, you're fighting a losing Battle like, you are setting them up for being addicted. And the biggest thing that I coach parents on is catch yourself, is when your kid's trying to talk to you, you're on your phone. If you instantly rationalize it, oh, but I'm doing work things. I'm doing important things. Like, oh, like, don't, don't interrupt me on my. Like, like, my, my son's trying to talk to me, my daughter's trying to talk to me, but it's okay because I'm doing good things. I'm not frying my brain. I'm actually helping people. I'm actually doing something. The second you try to tell yourself that, that should be the biggest red flag of, okay, I need to calm down a little bit.

[Juliana]

And even in the car, I have to say, kids pick up on everything. So I think, like, as adults, like, you know, you've been driving a long time, you're like, okay, if I'm at a red light and let's say I need to put in my ways a new address, right? Or something like that. Kids just see you look at your phone in like, as. As you're like, quote, unquote, driving, like, and I'm saying, even just stop. You know, stopped at a light, that's still not good, right? So it's like as an adult going, wait a second, my kid is with me. Even this. You should practice without a kid in the car anytime. But my point is, like, especially with your kids around, never, ever, ever, ever look at the phone in the car, because what message is that sending your kid? So, like, then people go, but, well, I know, honey, I was just looking at my ways. It's like, well, then get your ways. Like, put the address in before you push. You put your car into drive. Do you know what I mean? And say that to your kid. Like, I'm going to put. Let me set up my ways. I'm going to put the address in before I drive. Do you see how I'm doing that? Not as I'm driving, going around the block, oh, let me start putting the address in now. It's like they. They take all of that, right? And they take it into their adult life, and then the next thing you know, they're texting and driving or, you know, and so it's like all these behaviors that we do with our phones that we really need to cut out as parents. Okay, so you were saying, then what? So is there like a formula then? Okay, so after. Read his book, a long list of.

[Bill]

Everybody read his book.

[Juliana]

Mike, you're saying it's not a negotiation. I know what you were saying before. It's not a negotiation. It's the rules. Basically. The rules, Right. You're telling your kid, here are the rules in our home, when it comes to screen time, this is what you need to do. And you establish that as a parent.

[Podcast Announcer]

Right.

[Juliana]

Like outside time.

[Bill]

Well, so many parents want to be their kid's best friend.

[Coldwater Creek Advertiser]

Right.

[Bill]

Well, and I think that's a problem perfectly. They want to be the cool parents.

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

Yes.

[Bill]

They want to be the, you know, like, I'm his, but I'm cool. Right.

[Mike McLeod]

And that's what social media is doing. It's the immense pressure on parents from all these parenting gurus. It's not normal to pick up your phone 20 times a day and every time you open Instagram, it's another parenting person yelling at you about this concept of the perfect parent. You know, parenting is always, has always been that phenomenon of the more work you put in, it actually gets kind of, kind of harder. It's always that thing like, like, let's talk about this right now. Both of you. Yeah, you know, very successful. You many, many goals reached. You've accomplished many goals and done many great things. Parenting is probably number one on the list in terms of hardest things you've ever done. Correct.

[Bill]

Not even a question beyond.

[Mike McLeod]

There you go. So of all the things you've done, all the, all the different jars you've reached out to, parenting is the number one thing that has been the most difficult thing. And that's what it is. So it's not about, you know, who you are, whatever it is. Raising a human being is an imperfect science.

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[Juliana]

Okay, so we'll make the list the screen time. That's good. So I think the screen time's a big thing. And we know that that's a problem in this country, in this world, really. And so parents just kind of leading by example, setting ground rules that work for your family. What's like a third point of screen time that you want to share with with viewers?

[Mike McLeod]

Well, the biggest thing is delay, delay, delay as much as humanly possible. You know, we have to recognize that the second you bring a phone into a child's Life. It becomes the center of their life, and everything else is going to fail in comparison. You know how many millions of parents read the Anxious generation, was incredibly moved by it, but then just put it back on the shelf and did nothing about it. And the screen. The screen addiction continues. You know, we talk about, like, it's gonna. You're gonna be very hard pressed to find a parent, an adult, that says that their phone has positively influenced their life. Most adults would throw their phone in the ocean if they could, and, like, I never wanna see this thing again. But we're adults with fully developed brains. The brain grows until 30 years old, and we can't handle the addictive drug of a screen. And someone had the bright idea of, let's give these to kids. Let's get like, let's give them to someone with half of a brain.

[Juliana]

So what is the age, Mike? You have a daughter. You have a daughter. She's young. How old's your daughter? She's still.

[Mike McLeod]

She's five years old.

[Juliana]

So what is the age? And, you know, as a parent and as an expert, what is. I'm sure so many people ask you, like, what is that magic? Is there a magic number when it comes to when we should give our kids a phone? Or how do you do it? Like, or do you just give them a phone with no technology on it? Like, just for, like, emergencies? Like, how do you do this?

[Mike McLeod]

Well, if. If I were to buy my daughter a phone, that would make me the biggest hypocrite in the history of the world. So that's definitely not happening. But there's enough options out there in terms of dumb phones, flip phones, gab phones, bark phones. There's enough out there to where you can give your kid a phone, have that peace of mind. They can reach you in emergencies. They can do calls and texts and those things. It just doesn't have to be a smartphone. A smartphone is not a phone. It's a supercomputer. So, like, yeah, you want to be able to text your kid, you want them to be able to make phone calls. You want them to have those things. Get them a phone that is not connected to the Internet. Stop focusing on screens. Focus on Internet access. Because the second they have their own Internet access, think of all the parents out there that have done the right thing and have fought the fight and never caved to big tech, never bought their kid a phone, never. Then all of a sudden, they send their kids to school and school gives them their own fancy laptop, and the school created a screen addiction. Because now the kid's watching YouTube all day at school. And now like, mom, I'm gonna go in my room and do homework, and not a second of homework gets done. They're just doing whatever they want on the computer all the time. My heart goes out to those parents that did the right thing, but then their taxpayer dollars or their tuition dollars went towards a computer that really harmed their child. So, you know, we have to just focus on overall. At the end of the day, it's about experience. So, you know, two hours of screen time are minimally negative if they already spent 2, 3, 4 hours outside with friends doing a club, a sport, an activity, outdoor play. Look at it.

[Bill]

Holistically offsetting. It's a carbon, like a carbon offset.

[Juliana]

So no phone, you're saying? So no Internet until 18 or until they graduate high school, until they're adults. What do you think?

[Bill]

I don't think that's real.

[Mike McLeod]

Well, you can't ban the Internet. Like, they're, they're gonna, they're gonna need. Like to be able to do research and. Yeah, you know, I can ban the Internet.

[Juliana]

I can do whatever I want.

[Podcast Announcer]

No.

[Juliana]

What do you think then? What do you think then? His parents like to know, kind of what's the age?

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah, so. So it's. Every single kid is different, but they should not be getting their own smartphone until they're probably a junior or senior in high school. That's when they should get a smartphone, you know, because. Because they are. They are going to have one.

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

Yeah.

[Mike McLeod]

In college they are going to have one. Let's be honest. They will have one. And, you know, walk, walk across a college campus these days, it'll be pretty. Pretty barren. And you know where they are. They're all. They're all on their phones or they're

[Bill]

all their heads are down.

[Mike McLeod]

Yeah, exactly.

[Bill]

No one looks up anymore.

[Mike McLeod]

But yeah, it's. It's really all about, you know, you have to look at it holistically, like I said. So delay the smartphone as long as you possibly can. Don't bring things like Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft. That's not going to benefit them. It's not going to give them social skills. It's not going to, you know, do anything like that. It's all, you know, how many sports, music, art, how often are they out of the house, how often do they have other adults to hold them accountable? We have to look at what, what are their talents, what are their interests? Are they just watching YouTube and getting stuck on something and then, then that Comes. That becomes the rest of their lives.

[Juliana]

Okay, so I'm going to just say one last thing about screen time, because I think that a lot of kids, or excuse me, a lot of parents, their struggle is when the kid says, well, all my friends are also on Snapchat. This is how we communicate. All my friends do this, all my friends do that. So what I have to say to that, and I'm gonna start doing this with Duke, is, you know, I grew up. My parents, you know, we moved. We moved from Italy when I was a little girl. And my parents were like, the very Italian parents, if you will, very strict parents. And when I used to pull that on them, oh, my friend gets to go to camp for eight weeks, or my friends get to go on that, you know, to Daytona beach, you know, for spring break, I want to go, too. And they were just like, no. Well, your friends can do whatever they want. Their parents can do whatever they want, but you live in our house, and you're our daughter, and this is the way we do it. And you just tell your friends, like, this is how we do it in our house. And that's it. And I remember, like, thinking, you know, I was so upset when I was little, but then. And there were a lot of things I couldn't do that my friends could do. And now I look back, oh, I'll tell you what a big one was. Sleepovers. So I could never sleep over at a friend's house. That was huge. And now as an adult, I look back, and I completely. Every single thing they didn't let me do, I understand now as an adult. And so I tell Duke, I've told him this before. I use an exam. I use examples of my childhood. And I'm like, duke, I know that it seems hard now, but let me explain. When I was little, and I think sometimes kids like the story. They like to hear that you've had that experience. It resonates. And so that's what I'm gonna do. But what I mean is that what parents should do, Mike, it's kind of like you just draw the line and go, you know what? In our house, this is how we do it. Because you're gonna have kids who are going to make the argument that their friends are all doing it. Why can't they do it?

[Mike McLeod]

So let's quiz you guys real quick. What do you think I'm going to say to that from the advice I've given?

[Bill]

Yeah, it's tough. Yeah, tough luck, kid.

[Mike McLeod]

Too many words.

[Bill]

Too many words.

[Mike McLeod]

That's what it is.

[Juliana]

Am I acting like Duke right now?

[Mike McLeod]

But that's exactly what it is. Across America, money is being abandoned. By taking a few seconds to check Lyft before your next ride, you can give money a better home inside your wallet. Save the money. Check Lift.

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[Mike McLeod]

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[Juliana]

Bonjour. Bonjour.

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[Mike McLeod]

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[Podcast Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.