The Myth of Mental Health w/ P.E. Moskowitz

Summary

Binchtopia – Episode Summary: "The Myth of Mental Health w/ P.E. Moskowitz"

Release Date: March 12, 2025

In this thought-provoking episode of Binchtopia, hosts Julia Hava and Eliza McClam engage in a deep and enlightening conversation with guest P.E. Moskowitz, a renowned author and mental health expert. Titled "The Myth of Mental Health," the episode delves into the intricate relationship between mental health, capitalism, and contemporary culture, offering listeners a comprehensive exploration of societal structures and their impact on individual well-being.

---

1. Introduction to P.E. Moskowitz

The episode kicks off with the hosts introducing P.E. Moskowitz, highlighting his contributions to publications like GQ and New York Magazine, and his influential newsletter, Mental Health. They also mention his upcoming book, Breaking Awake, which combines memoir and reportage to explore the role of drugs in navigating modern life's challenges.

Notable Quote:

Julia Hava [00:20]: "We are very happy to introduce PE Moskowitz, friend of the pod."

---

2. Revisiting Past Conversations: Capitalism and Mental Health

The discussion begins by revisiting a previous conversation where Moskowitz expressed hope that society is beginning to understand how capitalism adversely affects mental health. He elaborates on this by asserting that while diagnoses related to mental health have increased, there's a growing recognition that systemic issues play a significant role in individual psychological struggles.

Notable Quote:

PE Moskowitz [03:08]: "I feel like everyone is kind of realizing that, like, this isn't just in my brain... this is my day in, day out is affected by... how stupid our politics are and how horrible, you know, our work culture is."

---

3. The Overdiagnosis of Mental Health Issues

Moskowitz critiques the current state of mental health diagnostics, arguing that societal definitions of "normal" are skewed to fit capitalist ideals. He contends that true mental health cannot be achieved within the rigid confines of an oppressive system, emphasizing that systemic change is necessary for genuine well-being.

Notable Quote:

PE Moskowitz [06:29]: "There is no normal. There is no healthy. We all are ill in some way... the only way you can define health... is by society's definition of what it means to be normal."

---

4. Anti-Intellectualism and Societal Stupidity

The conversation transitions to the pervasive anti-intellectualism in modern culture. Moskowitz links stupidity and malice as tools of fascism, suggesting that diminishing critical thinking skills makes populations more susceptible to manipulation and control.

Notable Quote:

PE Moskowitz [08:23]: "Stupidity and evilness are, like, part and parcel of the same coin. Like, they're both kind of tools of fascism."

---

5. The Role of Technology and Social Media

Moskowitz discusses how technologies like AI and social media contribute to reduced critical thinking. He explains that these platforms often prioritize engagement over truth, leading users to be misinformed and less capable of discerning complex societal issues.

Notable Quote:

PE Moskowitz [09:04]: "If you do your own research, you're going to be inundated... with Joe Rogan and neo-Nazis... that just sends you right back to the people who caused the problem in the first place."

---

6. Agency vs. Systemic Constraints

A significant portion of the episode examines the concept of personal agency amidst systemic oppression. Moskowitz encourages listeners to recognize the power they hold to make changes in their lives, even when facing broader societal issues. He emphasizes that acknowledging one's agency is crucial for personal empowerment and societal change.

Notable Quote:

PE Moskowitz [29:00]: "I can decide to walk outside and like, go see a friend in the middle of the day... recognizing that you can create a life for yourself to a certain extent."

---

7. The Importance of Community and Connection

The hosts and Moskowitz highlight the vital role of community in combating feelings of isolation and mental distress. They discuss how genuine connections and supportive relationships are essential for mental health, contrasting this with the isolating effects of digital interactions.

Notable Quote:

Eliza McClam [56:19]: "With complete sincerity. Being around other weird gay people is like absolutely a life-affirming experience."

---

8. Personal Reflections and Book Discussion

Moskowitz shares personal anecdotes from his journey through mental health struggles, including his upcoming book Breaking Awake. He intertwines his experiences with broader societal observations, illustrating how drugs and personal agency intersect in the pursuit of mental stability.

Notable Quote:

PE Moskowitz [60:19]: "Breaking Awake... trying to answer the question, like, why do we all need to be on drugs to function in America these days."

---

9. Conclusion: Finding Hope Through Resilience and Community

As the episode nears its end, Moskowitz and the hosts discuss sources of hope despite the grim societal landscape. They stress the importance of building resilient communities, fostering genuine human connections, and maintaining personal agency as pathways to overcoming systemic challenges.

Notable Quote:

PE Moskowitz [55:41]: "What I've been searching for more as the world gets worse and worse is just, like, more and more ways to encourage that in my own life and also in other people's lives."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Systemic Influence on Mental Health: Modern capitalism and societal structures significantly impact individual mental well-being, necessitating systemic change for genuine improvement.

• Critical Thinking and Anti-Intellectualism: The decline in critical thinking skills, fueled by social media and technology, exacerbates societal issues and facilitates manipulation.

• Personal Agency: Recognizing and exercising personal agency is crucial for both individual empowerment and broader societal change, even within oppressive systems.

• Community and Connection: Building and maintaining genuine human connections are essential for mental health and combating societal isolation.

• Role of Technology: While technology offers convenience, it often undermines critical thinking and fosters unhealthy dependencies that can harm mental health.

---

About P.E. Moskowitz:

P.E. Moskowitz is an influential writer and mental health advocate known for his insightful analysis of psychology, capitalism, and culture. His newsletter, Mental Health, explores the intersections of these fields, and his upcoming book, Breaking Awake, offers a memoir combined with reportage on the role of drugs in navigating life's challenges.

Connect with P.E. Moskowitz:

• Website: pemoskowitz.xyz
• Newsletter: Subscribe to Mental Health on Substack for regular insights.

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Final Thoughts:

This episode of Binchtopia offers a nuanced exploration of the myths surrounding mental health in the context of modern societal structures. Through engaging dialogue and personal reflections, Moskowitz and the hosts encourage listeners to critically examine the systems that shape our mental well-being and to seek meaningful connections as a balm against pervasive isolation and disillusionment.

Transcript

[Julia Hava]

Welcome to Binchtopia.

[Eliza McClam]

We hope you enjoy your stay.

[Julia Hava]

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Bingetopia.

[Eliza McClam]

Hello and welcome back.

[Julia Hava]

I'm Julia hava.

[Eliza McClam]

I'm Eliza McClam.

[Julia Hava]

And we have a very special guest with us today.

[Eliza McClam]

We do first, getting the business out of the way. You can find us on patreon.com bingetopia bonus episodes, monthly zooms. We had a riot of a time talking about the Baldwins.

[Julia Hava]

The Baldwin show is actually an American masterpiece. It's incredible.

[Eliza McClam]

And a horror, Psychological horror as well.

[Julia Hava]

And then there's something new happening with Patreon. Oh, right, we have to talk about that.

[Eliza McClam]

So irritating. Basically, if you want to subscribe to Patreon, which I highly recommend, and of course, you should just don't do it on your phone through Apple because Apple, like, made up their own charge and will charge you, like a 30 fee, which obviously we don't want you guys paying. Paying any more Montes. So if you want to sign up for Patreon, just do it on your.

[Julia Hava]

Desktop, take out your computer, make the purchase.

[Eliza McClam]

Like a big purchase, like you're buying an airplane ticket or paying your taxes or something. Or subscribing to our Bingtopia Patreon, for example.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

All right. Business out of the way. We are very happy to introduce PE Moskowitz, friend of the pod. If you have been listening for a long time, you've actually already heard an episode that they have been on. They're an author and a contributor to many publications, including GQ and the New York Magazine. They run the popular newsletter slash substack, Mental Health. That's health spelled like hell. And then the th.

[Julia Hava]

So true.

[Eliza McClam]

So true. I'm a subscriber and I love it.

[Julia Hava]

As am I.

[Eliza McClam]

Yes. Which is about the intersection of psychology, capitalism, and culture. Their upcoming book, Breaking Awake, A Reporter Search for a New Life and a New World through Drugs, is set to be released this September. Part memoir, part reportage. And they were on the episode that we came out with in 2022 called Medication Nation. Welcome to the pod again.

[PE Moskowitz]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Eliza McClam]

Oh, my God, of course.

[Julia Hava]

Oh, my God. The state of everything was so different in 2022.

[PE Moskowitz]

I know. I was thinking back and I was like, that was like five years ago.

[Julia Hava]

Or 10 years ago.

[Eliza McClam]

It feels that way.

[Julia Hava]

Well, apparently you made a statement on our last podcast episode that we wanted to check back in with you about. Do you remember what the statement was, Eliza?

[Eliza McClam]

Well, if you. And I'll catch people up so you don't have to go Back and listen to the other episode if you haven't heard it yet. Although, of course, I recommend. But we are sort of talking about psychiatry and mental health and the connection between capitalism and the sort of like, of the world in terms of, like, how we perceive it and how we diagnose ourselves and categorize, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We were sort of talking about our disillusionment with, like, certain categories and psychiatry and stuff. And you had said something like, well, I feel hopeful that the world is moving towards this acceptance.

[PE Moskowitz]

Oh, no.

[Eliza McClam]

That it is actually like capitalism. That is the root of a lot of these, like, psychological issues and wellness. And I'm. We just wanted to circle back.

[Julia Hava]

Are you still hopeful? Let's see if you're still hopeful.

[PE Moskowitz]

Fine. Hopeful. I guess I feel like. Actually, I think I am still hopeful that people are at least acknowledging that the world is making their brains bad.

[Julia Hava]

So true.

[PE Moskowitz]

Like, I'm not hopeful about the world right now for obvious reasons, but I feel like everyone is kind of realizing, like, oh, this isn't just in my brain. Like, this is my day. My day in, day out is affected by, you know, how stupid our politics are and how horrible, you know, our work culture is and all of this stuff. So I don't think we have, like, gotten away from diagnosis at all. We've probably gotten even more into it. But I think simultaneously, people are at least starting to realize that, like, there's something else going on, too.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah. Phone makes them feel bad.

[Eliza McClam]

Phone bad. But now we're in the cycle of phone bad.

[Julia Hava]

Right.

[Eliza McClam]

Politics bad. Which I feel like you have always been somebody. First of all, I feel like Julie and I wanted to bring you on at this current moment. I'm sorry that everyone is probably calling on you to be like, can you help me? But I feel like you're somebody who at least, like, if not helps me make more sense of the world, mirrors my sort of, like, what the fuck about the world? Which is very comforting. And I feel like something like a current that runs through all of your work since, like, the first thing that I feel like I read from you, which was like, yes, capitalism makes us all feel bad. Like, now what?

[PE Moskowitz]

Right.

[Eliza McClam]

And it's that, like, now what? Question.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right.

[Eliza McClam]

That I find so important and interesting, especially during these times.

[Julia Hava]

And the part that we always struggle with on our podcast is then we kind of end it with, like, well, now what?

[Eliza McClam]

So true. So, yeah, we're very happy to have you back.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah. And just to. Can I say something?

[Eliza McClam]

Yes. Of Course, at any time, you can interrupt either of us. We do it to each other all the time, and we'll probably do it to you.

[PE Moskowitz]

I just feel like. I don't know. When I was writing, you know, as like a baby reporter, like 10 years ago or something, I kept writing the same thing over and over again, like, in different ways, which is just that, like, capitalism is bad and, you know, the environment is going to shit. And. And then I, like, realized that everyone already knows that. And I think just like, preaching to the choir makes people just feel worse because it's like, we already know. And so what's the point of being told over and over and over again? And that's why I kind of switched my focus to mental health in the first place, was because I was feeling like, okay, now that we know this, what do we do? Like, how do we survive this particularly bleak moment of human history?

[Eliza McClam]

Totally. I'm interested on if you were to, like. If you were to say what makes someone mentally healthy or like, what. When we say, like, we're pursuing better mental health, like, what is the ideal? What does that look like we are reaching for?

[PE Moskowitz]

Right? I mean, not to get, like, right into Deleuze and Guitari, like, from that.

[Julia Hava]

No, no.

[Eliza McClam]

And go there and go there. This is why you're here.

[PE Moskowitz]

But, you know, they're like famous line of, like, a schizophrenic on a walk is like, a better model to look to, of, like, normalcy than like, a normal healthy person, which is, you know, I mean, I'm butchering what they said, but. But basically, like, there is no normal. There is no healthy. We all are ill in some way, whether mentally, physically, both, and that the only way you can define health, mental or physical, is by society's definition of what it means to be normal. Right? So if you fit into society enough to work, if you fit into society enough to have quote, unquote, normal relationships and not be catatonic in bed, depressed all day and anxious and having panic attacks, that basically makes you a better capitalist subject. And that is what defines you as healthy. But none of us are that anymore, right? Like, show, like, what's that book? Literally show me a healthy person or whatever. Like, literally show me a healthy person. Like, no one can do that anymore. So I think the idea of what we're aiming for when we aim for health can't be individual because no one can fit into this really strict and increasingly strict rubric of what is needed to survive capitalism right now. If anything, we should be striving to acknowledge that our illness is kind of inherent until we change the system, that we will always be sick until the system itself changes.

[Eliza McClam]

Wow, that's very brilliant. I'm, like, struggling not to denigrate anything you just said by saying, well, yes.

[Julia Hava]

As we often do, but that's very.

[Eliza McClam]

Like Foucault as well. Like, what defines a disabled person is, like, what the society won't accommodate. And I think increasingly too, like, this also connects with another reason we brought you on, which is because you talk a lot about how fucking stupid everything is now. Like, yes, everything is evil and crazy.

[Julia Hava]

But it's also stupid.

[Eliza McClam]

But it's also just profoundly stupid. And now it's like, not only are we battling, like, the actual oppressive nature of humanity, which, like, wants to strip us all of our, like, individual freedom and make us all cogs and whatever, but also then, like, we are, like, battered with this sort of, like, social stupidity and numbness and, like, this utter, like, sort of meaninglessness that cat videos.

[Julia Hava]

Of cats giving birth in the snow. Cat husband comes to the hospital with the other cat. It's really.

[Eliza McClam]

Exactly.

[PE Moskowitz]

Wait, that was AI. I thought that was real.

[Julia Hava]

I mean, it was. It was really. It was really close to reality. But, yeah, I mean, everything has become so stupid. And you wrote a great article on your substack about how everything is stupid. And it was. I think, like, specifically, you were talking about how, like, the left is, like, we need, like, a Joe Rogan of our own, and it's like, so we're just gonna fight, like, stupid misinformation with stupid misinformation.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right. I mean, I think the thing is, is that, like, stupidity and evilness are, like, part and parcel of the same coin. Like, they're both kind of tools of fascism. Not to already start with the F word.

[Julia Hava]

No, I'm interested in what way is stupidity a tool of fascism? I'm really interested in that.

[PE Moskowitz]

I mean, I think it's like, you know, you can either, like, kill someone or imprison them, or you can make them stupid enough to. To vote for you. Right, right. So if you. If you kind of wield these, like, massively powerful technologies like AI and the Internet in general, social media, to ruin people's critical thinking skills, then it's much easier to kind of sell them a false bill of goods or, you know, your snake oil cure or whatever.

[Eliza McClam]

Totally.

[PE Moskowitz]

The last piece I just wrote for my substack was about, like, why people are attracted to the ideology of rfk. And, you know, in my opinion, RFK is extremely Stupid. He's a Charlotte.

[Julia Hava]

Did you see our Halloween costume?

[PE Moskowitz]

Oh, my God. I didn't know.

[Julia Hava]

RFK in the brain worm.

[PE Moskowitz]

Oh, my God.

[Julia Hava]

Eliza was rfk.

[PE Moskowitz]

Wait, that's amazing.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah, but it's not really funny.

[Eliza McClam]

No, it was funny before. He was pretty pre election. We're like, wouldn't this be crazy? And then it was crazy, because the world is crazy.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julia Hava]

But, yeah, I mean, why are people so attracted to a man who has a worm in his brain?

[PE Moskowitz]

Right? I mean, that's part of it, probably. They relate to the worm in their metaphorical way.

[Julia Hava]

I also kind of feel like I have a worm in my brain. Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

No, but he, you know, takes these kind of true things, like everyone realizing that we're all increasingly unhealthy and sick and depressed and that our food probably is killing us and that, you know, our medicine is not working as it should and that we should be distrustful of these big corporations. And then he sells you a snake oil cure based in stupidity. Right. Like, you have to be misinformed to believe that RFK will fix these things. So I think, like, what quote unquote, the system wants or whatever is for everyone to be just smart enough to realize that there is a problem, but just stupid enough to think the solution to that problem is by giving the people in power even more power.

[Julia Hava]

So to accept the wrong solution, like, you just stop them at recognizing the problem. You don't tell them the systemic issues behind it or how to actually solve it, and then they offer.

[Eliza McClam]

Ideally, they are angry and not critical.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right?

[Julia Hava]

Yes.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right. And that's, I think, like, what everyone is these days, you know?

[Eliza McClam]

Totally.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah. And, you know, the Democrats kind of alternative is to pretend there's not a problem at all.

[Julia Hava]

They're literally. Haven't heard a peep from them. Haven't heard a peep from them since election day. I'm like, y' all there even like.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah, no, they really do just card out around elections. They're literally on Broadway.

[Julia Hava]

Like, they're getting. They're getting flew out to every location.

[Eliza McClam]

Katy Perry's going to space. I feel like that's connected somehow.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah, that does feel connected.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

No, it's crazy. And I remember, like, back in 2016, like, Hillary's response to Make America Great Again was to say, like, America was already great. And it's like that you're like, like, no, it wasn't like, no. Like, everyone is like, what are you talking about?

[Julia Hava]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

So it's like, either just wanted a slogan.

[Julia Hava]

I Mean, he was. He's right that America's not great, but all of the reasons behind that and the solutions for that are completely wrong. But it's like you. You touch on a kernel of truth, and that's how you hook people. And then they're not willing to, like, think more about the solutions. They're just willing to accept it because you told them there was a problem.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right. And, you know, you kind of. You identify the problem and then, you know it's not conspiratorial, but it kind of is. Like, you set up an entire system of Internet culture in which the only solution you can find funnels back to the people who told you there was a problem in the first place.

[Julia Hava]

Yes.

[PE Moskowitz]

If you go online, you're going to be inundated, like, algorithmically. Algorithmically with, like, Joe Rogan and neo Nazis and all this stuff, like, kind of immediately. And if you don't know any better, that's just like, you know, you think you're. You're doing your own research and you're learning, and. And it just so happens that all that research and learning sends you right back to the people who caused the problem in the first place.

[Julia Hava]

Doing your own research does not mean what it used to mean, because research does not mean what it used to mean.

[Eliza McClam]

Well, I want to talk to you too about, like, I feel like when I hear people make these arguments, the, the counter to them a lot of the times, like, well, that sounds really elitist. Like, calling other people stupid, like, sounds very elitist.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah. Saying other people are misinformed or they.

[Eliza McClam]

Aren'T educated, even when that is plainly true.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right.

[Eliza McClam]

I wanna, like, why do you think that is a common response? And do you. I mean, because a lot of people think. And, you know, I don't consider myself a Democrat really, or like, a proponent of the Democratic Party, but that's what people say a lot of the times, like, well, the Democrats are failing because they're so condescending and because they're so elitist.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right. I think calling out a problem is not elitist. I think there are elitist ways to address that problem. But I think what's really elitist is, like, you know, kind of pretending that people aren't smart enough to. To. To see that the solutions people, like the Democrats are offering, like, don't make any sense.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah. And so I think again, like, when you look at RFK or whatever, it's like, yes, people are stupid, but they're at least smart enough to realize that, like, he's Saying something is wrong. Right, right.

[Eliza McClam]

Causing a problem.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right. So, like, I similarly not to link myself to RFK at all because again, I think he's horrible and evil. But I similarly, like, would have hoped that by saying, like, everyone is acting really stupidly, like I am hitting on a problem that people could maybe recognize, whether in themselves or in their communities or whatever. And I don't find that elitist necessarily. But I also just think we should like, say, who cares to being elitist. Right. Because sure is like reading bad.

[Eliza McClam]

Is art bad statistic in that piece, which I can't recall it from memory, but about like the literacy rates of.

[Julia Hava]

America, I think it was 54% of.

[PE Moskowitz]

Americans read it like a sixth grade level.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah, right. Which, like, I don't think it's elitist to say that's bad. That's bad.

[Julia Hava]

Well, this is like, it's. It's a larger part of anti intellectualism. And we ask people to submit, like, what they think is making us the most stupid. And I kind of categorize them. And one of the categories is of course, like anti intellectualism. Another category that I know you love is weird social behavior. Like the way we now weirdly interact with each other. But obviously, like the anti intellectualism, I think part of the anti science, the RFK stuff is part of that. But it's also like Netflix films that explain what's happening in every single moment. Or like book talk. Like, I don't know, to me, I'm like, you know that whole debate where there was that girl that read like 100 books in a. Whatever, it was like a month. But then like, they were all fantasy, like, smut books. So people were like, having a huge kind of debate over that. And it's like, I don't know, like, is that. I guess it's good that she's reading, but, like, is the quality of what you. I mean, I guess it's her journey, so I can't really criticize it.

[PE Moskowitz]

But you should have her on here.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah, we should have her on here.

[Eliza McClam]

We should debate.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think the anti intellectualism thing is like, you know that like 30 rock clip where Jack is like, the real Americans don't want your east coast, like, liberal elitist plot. And she's like, just say, Jewish Jack.

[Julia Hava]

This is taking. I mean, it is. Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah. But I think it's all like interlinked, like this kind of fear of this, you know, Jewish intellectual person who understands more than you and therefore can control you.

[Julia Hava]

Playing mind games.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah. I mean, that's been like a Republican strategy of totally convincing people not to listen to anyone who might say anything compelling for. For decades and decades.

[Julia Hava]

It's just mind blowing how much people really like, like they really argue with doctors, they really argue with scientists. And obviously doctors and scientists can be wrong and they've done a lot of harm as well. But it's hard for me to understand, like, where people get like the gall and the audacity to be like, well, I actually did my own research and I disagree with Harvard Medical School.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah. And that's the thing is like, you know, we should all be like so skeptical of, of everything.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

But I think one, we have to learn what actually doing your own research means.

[Julia Hava]

Right. Did you guys not have that class where like you read like Reliable Sources and they said, I mean, back then Wikipedia was not a reli. And now I'm like, if you're reading Wikipedia, thank God, like there's something on there that's true.

[Eliza McClam]

Well, the thing is, like, plenty of schools truly don't have that class.

[Julia Hava]

Right?

[Eliza McClam]

Schools actually don't teach that.

[Julia Hava]

I think it was a one day thing.

[Eliza McClam]

I don't think it was a go to the library for one day. If you got sick, you're kind of. Yeah, yeah, no, that is totally it too.

[PE Moskowitz]

And I think we're. Yeah, I mean, I think we're in such a place where it's like we keep starting at like step five of being like, these people are evil and wrong and here's why. But it's like step one would be like teaching people how to think again, critically so that when you do make that argument, it's not just like falling on deaf ears or whatever. Like.

[Eliza McClam]

Right.

[PE Moskowitz]

Like if you have lost all ability to do your own research, to think critically, to think for yourself, to kind of read between the lines of what people are telling you, then any argument that requires any amount of nuance or complexity or whatever is just not going to work.

[Eliza McClam]

Totally. And that actually to circle back to the book talk.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

Like, I think that. Because when I heard that anecdote as you were saying it just now, I was thinking like, yeah, that makes me feel like that's not real. Like that's not really reading. But why do I.

[Julia Hava]

But then I feel anti intellectual. But like I'm immediately like, I'm being a.

[Eliza McClam]

But actually. But then I was thinking like, what, what do I think is the value of reading? Like, why do I enjoy reading? And I think it's because reading has taught me how to think critically and.

[Julia Hava]

Right.

[Eliza McClam]

Yes. Because I have read things that are smarter than me. Sort of complex. Yeah, Smarter where I read something and it confuses me. And then I'm like, let me read that again. Like, let me go.

[Julia Hava]

Right.

[Eliza McClam]

There's an amazing Toni Morrison interview where she was like, some, like, white guy interviewer was like, people have said that they have to go back and reread passages of your books in order to understand them. And she was like, that is called reading. That is called reading.

[Julia Hava]

That is called reading.

[Eliza McClam]

And so I think, like. And obviously, I don't know the specific titles that this person was reading. And I don't think there's anything bad with reading something that you don't have to go back and reread and that you just enjoy. But there's a difference between doing that and reading something that sort of challenges you and engages you in a way. And it's okay to say that those things are different. Like, it doesn't mean that everyone should be shot on site for, like, reading smutty book talk books.

[Julia Hava]

Right.

[Eliza McClam]

You know, obviously, that's like, a huge part of our job, but it also.

[Julia Hava]

Speaks to, like, how low our standards are for people, that people are like, just be glad she's reading it all. It's like, okay, like, I thought we all used to read. Read. I guess not, right?

[PE Moskowitz]

And it's. I mean, it's getting to the point where, yeah, reading any book at all is, like, considered some form of elitism.

[Julia Hava]

I mean, I see people being like, I haven't read a book since sixth grade. And I'm like, I can't imagine how much less informed. I. Like, I don't know what my brain would be like if I hadn't. And that's not like. It's like, I force myself to read because I know I would be wasting away if I wasn't reading.

[PE Moskowitz]

Or I've seen these, like, tweets that are, like, pictures taken on the subway of, like, a man reading a book. And it's like, someone being like, okay, we get it. You're smart. And it's like, should we really be, like, taking photos of strangers to make fun of them for reading a book instead of staring at their phone the whole time?

[Eliza McClam]

Like, you're the one doing the performance. Like, you are taking the photo of this person who's actually just out in public, like, minding their business? Well, there's a lot, like, you are not a vibe, bro.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah, literally. But this is, like, another thing that people pointed out is, like, people's inability to take anything seriously. Like, everything has to be a joke, everyone. And, like, authenticity and sincerity is so frowned up. Like, oh, my God, God forbid someone sincerely, like, read a book on the subway. Like there was one. Or it was, like, learning how to sleep, and someone was like, wow, like, she's suffering. It's like, people are just, like, read. Like, they just. They're trying to help themselves. Like, why are we pointing out people who we think are embarrassing or too often.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right. Exactly. It says something very sad about, like, how we're all performing for the Internet, like, for, like, this unseen eye that's following us.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

But I feel like the older I get, the more sincere I get, and it's so true. Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

I don't know. Like, I was looking back through, like, my last couple of months of substack posts, and a lot of them are just like, we need community. And I love. I love my friends, and love is.

[Julia Hava]

The most important thing in the world when you're older. It really.

[Eliza McClam]

No, it really does. It's like sometimes actually, those are the barest truths of existence. Yeah. Okay.

[Julia Hava]

I mean, I think every group of teenagers thinks that they're the first to, like, be cynical about the world and, like, be like, we hate the world. Nothing's right. But the older you get, you are like, yeah, we hate the world. Nothing's right. And that's why I love my friends.

[PE Moskowitz]

Exactly.

[Eliza McClam]

I love a cup of tea. We're sort of, like, you know, the newest. I was reading something about the different. Are you millennial? Are you Gen Z millennial?

[PE Moskowitz]

You're very millennial.

[Julia Hava]

The way you looked at me, you're like, eliza, I'm barely Gen Zillennial.

[Eliza McClam]

You're geriatric.

[Julia Hava]

I am. Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

But there's. I'm. I'm, like, squarely in the middle of Gen Z. But there's, like, another. Like, people born just after me are sort of belonging to this. Like, they were in high school when Covid hit and that. I feel like those kids have grown up in just, like, a world of total unreality, of just, like, totally absorbed by the Internet and by this, like, post Covid world that's become so crazy and like, that. And so for those kids, I'm like, no, no, no. Like, you learning, like, community is everything and, like, love your friends. Like, that will be very important. Yeah. Like, that actually will become something, I think that is so profound. Like, being able to learn to come back to that. And, like, I don't want to sound like a boomer. Like, I really don't, but Also, that's the thing. Yeah. Like, throughout this whole conversation, what you guys were just saying about sincerity, I'm like, no, I feel like I also. And of course, being a podcast, you have the invisible eye of the audience at all times where I'm like constantly monitoring everything I'm saying. And, but I, at, at, at the end of the day, like, it is bad if you are in your phone, on your phone, in bed for 10 hours a day. Like, it doesn't mean it's your fault. But that's not awesome. Like, I know that's not awesome for you.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right? Exactly.

[Eliza McClam]

And I know that you should be maybe reading more books. And like, I should be too. And I'm in my phone 10 hours a day sometimes too, you know, but like, love is the most important thing.

[PE Moskowitz]

Love is the most important thing. And I think we also can, like, you know, say like, we all should be reading more and it's bad that we're staring at our phone for 20 hours a day and that like bed riding or whatever you want to call it is probably not a good use of your time. And it's definitely not self care and all of that stuff. And at the same time, recognize that this isn't like anyone's individual fault, you know, Like, I don't want to come across as like being like, oh, why aren't you reading a book? Like tsk, tsk, or something. It's like we're all being systemically having systemic warfare done to our brains, you know, by humongous, literally trillion dollar corporations that are monetizing our attention spans and have every incentive in the book to make us more stupid. So it's not a matter of just being like, oh, I should feel guilty for reading less. It's a matter of like, of figuring out this systemic reasons that it's become so hard to even pick.

[Julia Hava]

Well, there's no conditions to encourage people to read.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right.

[Julia Hava]

Like, why would you read?

[Eliza McClam]

And everything is actively encouraging you not to read because, yeah, reading, especially reading something that is complex.

[Julia Hava]

Can we talk about. I don't have this on my phone, but the new AI summarizing people's text messages. Have you seen that? It's really. It's like somebody got a breakup text and now Apple will send you an. It's like person thinks things won't work out and wishes you the best. And it's an AI. Like, now you don't even have to read your own text, which is crazy.

[Eliza McClam]

That is really horrible.

[PE Moskowitz]

I also don't understand, like, with AI in particular, like, why do people want to give up so much of their own? Like, not only are their critical thinking, but, like, the things that make life worth living. Like, you know, like, I feel like thinking through things or, like, texting a friend, like, through conflict is kind of like the point of life, right? It's like this. This idea of, like, convenience. It's like, maybe it's more convenient, but, like, a can of tuna is more convenient than, like, a really nice, like, ahi tuna in Japan or something, right? And it's like, that doesn't mean that the can of tuna is better. In fact, it means that if you only eat the can of tuna, you're gonna be depressed as hell. Because who wants to eat a can of tuna for the rest of your life?

[Julia Hava]

Yeah, that's how RSA junior got to.

[Eliza McClam]

How he is, and it's poisoning you. No, that reminds me. Friend of the pod, Rain Fisher Kwan, wrote a really great essay about writing an AI, basically being like, yeah, some of writing is really tedious. And, like, a lot of, you know, sort of buzzfeed Listicle stuff like, yeah, maybe, like, AI can do that just as well as a human can. But the point of writing is that, like, writing is also work. And sometimes, like, you get stuck on something and then you think about it for a while and you write a bad sentence, and you write a million bad sentences, and you like. But that. That is the work of writing. And, like, if the idea is not, like, the fact that just simply something can produce a string of words in, like, a similar way that a human could, then, like, we have to also value the process of writing, like, individually as its own act.

[Julia Hava]

Well, we're trying to eliminate discomfort as something that anybody ever experiences. And that is, like, if you talk about resilience, psychologically building resilience and character, it's like you have to go through obstacles and, like, work through them. And this is what people talk about with, like, helicopter parents who remove all the obstacles out of their kids ways. Like, you don't learn anything. You don't learn to tolerate discomfort. And I think.

[PE Moskowitz]

Exactly.

[Julia Hava]

People would rather do the tuna because they're less uncomfortable.

[PE Moskowitz]

Exactly, exactly. And I can go into a whole rant about, like, picky eaters right now.

[Eliza McClam]

No, I just said two episodes ago.

[PE Moskowitz]

Fell off the chair.

[Eliza McClam]

But I just said two episodes ago, like, barring any sort of, like, sensory needs or, like, eating disorder, like, I do think picky eating is, like, a moral failure.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah, I mean, we can go down that rabbit hole, which I gladly will, but I Wanted to also just point out this like stat I saw today.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

That working mothers today spend more time doing childcare than stay at home moms did 50 years ago. So the idea that like I'm like.

[Julia Hava]

I'm like trying to understand how that's possible.

[PE Moskowitz]

So like it just. We're all helicopter parents or being helicopter parented and all of our like unstructured time has been taken away from us. Like the Canadian Pediatrics Association a few years ago literally told parents that it was like a medical necessity to let their kids like go do dangerous things like fall off a bike or like get lost in the woods or whatever. Like all of our lives are so, so protected. All friction has been removed.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

And it's making people scared of, of everything.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah. If you don't learn, like there are people who you meet as an adult, I feel like, especially in your 20s, who you're like, oh, this is like your first experience with like conflict.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

With friction. Or like having like being in an uncomfor situation that you have to like work your way out of.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right.

[Eliza McClam]

For all the things that Jonathan Heights says that I'm like, whatever. He does have a really good point about. He wrote that book the Anxious Generation. He does have a good point about exposing your children to risks, being really good for their healthy development because that actually does prepare them for the adulthood that awaits them of making. Thinking critically and making choices.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yes. I mean, and I think it's like all connected. Like if you're in these hyper curated spaces online that are designed to remove friction and designed to kind of condition you to only curate your own existence like down to like the algorithmic pinpoint so that you never exposed to something that you don't want to be exposed to. Then it becomes harder and harder to accept risk and accept something that could be potentially traumatizing. But that's, that's how people grow. There's. There's this great book by a psychoanalyst named Avgi Sakatapoulou is, I think how you say her name called Sexuality Beyond Consent. And it's about this idea of consent and how it's like kind of taken over everything and that there's like no such thing as consent. It's not like a pro sexual assault, but it's like. Which is probably how it sounds, but it's like, it's like any experience comes with the potential for harm.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

Even if you consent to it, there's.

[Julia Hava]

No way to remove completely the potential of harm. And that's why like all of this, I think the removal of total friction and discomfort anywhere is leading to this very weird social behavior. And part of also the over diagnosing is people saying, well, I can't do that because I have adhd. Oh, I can't do that because I have ptsd. As if like a diagnosis gives you things that you're like, not allowed to do, rather than like, it's harder for me to do that thing you hear, like, I can't. I'm not. It's not possible.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right. And I think, you know, I, as someone who has been. Been in psychoanalysis for many years and who reads a lot about psychoanalysis and writes a lot about it, something it's made me realize is how much agency we're always willing to give up. And I think that's really. It's really hard to square with. The system takes away so much of our agency. And so sometimes we feel like we have none. But I think we've also been kind of taught that we have none when we really have more than we think. And so now I realize through this process of psychoanalysis, like, how much free will I have. I can like, change my gender.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah, yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

I can like decide to walk outside and like, go see a friend in the middle of the day if I, you know, if I'm not doing anything without feeling guilt about it, like any. From big to small, like, just like recognizing that you can create a life for yourself to a certain extent, I think is such an important, like, first step to realizing that, like, you need to do these things in order to have a life worth living and that you might get hurt doing them, but that kind of making excuses to. As to why you can't do them. Like, oh, I'm too anxious, I'm too this, I'm too. That is life ruining. I mean, yeah, it just paralyzes you and it's hopeless.

[Julia Hava]

Like we talked about this like recently and that people really don't want to accept that they have agency. And then you get into this place where it's like, well, it's all hopeless. And it's actually very. It can be scary to accept that you have agency in some of the decision. Like, obviously the system has led to people being in some situations that are really unfair, but there is always an element of agency. And I think people give it up and that's a really difficult thing that people don't really want to hear. Also, like, they're very defensive about hearing that.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right. And I think it's also like, often people like me, like, Relatively privileged or whatever who are making that argument that we don't have any agency. Whereas, like, a lot of people who like, are actually doing work on the ground, organizing, whatever, like, realize how much they actually have. I think it's very easy when you're kind of like sitting at home and justifiably like, have ennui about the state of the world and everything, but like, to then internalize that and make it about how you have no agency when that, that kind of becomes a, an excuse for why your life isn't the.

[Eliza McClam]

Way you want it to be a political tool. Like, I just wrote this essay about like the I'm just a girl concept. And like this whole movement that I feel like we've had, I mean, obviously was more like Barbie, you know, in like Year of the Girl 2023. But I feel like I still see it so much online prevalently. And I was just sort of writing about how there's something about giving up that agency of being like, oh, I. Like, I can't even do taxes. Like, I'm just a girl. I'm just whatever. Like, yes, it is like, haha, joking, whatever. But also does connect to this, like, very real thing that people like the idea that you are a person who like, can't do anything for yourself and you're like a helpless little girl. Like a lot of the people perpetuating that and saying, like, posting a picture of a deer and being like me.

[Julia Hava]

Like, and it's always the most evil person you've ever met in your life. Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

And it's just like, you are like a white girl from Massachusetts. You know what I mean? It's like you actually, it's very dangerous not only for you to believe that like, I have no power, I have no agency, but for everyone else. Like, yeah. That is the narrative that fascists operate off of the conservatives when they're saying, we want to protect the children.

[Julia Hava]

They love that I'm just a girl. Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

They're like, yes, you are, and we will protect you. Like, you can convince yourself, like, you know, circling back to what you were saying in the beginning of like, I don't have any power. I must, like, I need to give it all up to the government, which you know, will help protect me when like, of course that is not what they're ever going to do. But this idea of like, being so powerless and like, feeling like, you know, it's almost that like, very famous thing about fascism of like, don't obey in advance, like, don't give it all away. And that to. For me to see, like, suburban white girls being like, well, I'm just a girl. And, like, I can't even do math, and I can't. And I'm like, that is literally what the Republicans, like, operate off of. They use that, and they are so happy to see you, like, give it up. So that, like, it's like, also the thing that I said in the essays. I'm like, if you can't schedule your own doctor's appointment, like, you're not gonna have a revolution. Like, you think you're gonna go, like, go out with the machete.

[PE Moskowitz]

No, no. I think that's such a great point. And I think it's much like, I don't know, voting for Trump or something. Like, this idea of having no agency is like this fantasy of giving up things that stress you out to, like, a higher power.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah. Like, whether it's a God.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yes. Yeah. Whether it's God or Trump or just like an abstract thing of, like, I'm just a girl. What it does, it's not reality. It operates as a fantasy to allow you to kind of give up responsibility.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

And I think the flip side of agency is responsibility. If you have no agency, you have no responsibility. And that's a nice fantasy to live under sometimes.

[Julia Hava]

It's a childhood regression. Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

Literally a childhood regression. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

Oh, my God. My little psychoanalysts in there.

[Julia Hava]

I mean, it. I mean, you're regressing to a state where you don't have autonomy and it makes you feel good and other people.

[Eliza McClam]

Need to take care of you, and.

[Julia Hava]

Other people need to take care of you. And that's. I think it's a. I have to.

[PE Moskowitz]

Tell you, my first psychoanalytic revelation that was given to me, like, when I was 14.

[Julia Hava]

I would love to hear it.

[PE Moskowitz]

Okay. So when I was 14, I stole a bunch of money from my parents to buy cocaine. And they obviously caught me because they were like, why is $3,000 missing from the bank? And also, why have you, like, lost 20 pounds and look like you're cracked.

[Julia Hava]

Out all the time?

[PE Moskowitz]

And I went to a therapist, and after like, a year of therapy, she was like, do you think that the reason you got addicted to cocaine was because you knew that you would get caught and that would put you back under your parents care as if you were a child? Because think about it, you're in their house now. They're taking care of you. Instead of you taking responsibility for yourself. You're literally like, peeing in a cup in front of Them, which is like what a baby does, pee in front of you. And I was like, holy fucking shit. But I. Yeah, I mean that's. That was probably my first instance of realizing like, oh, like this idea of having no agency is this childhood fantasy.

[Eliza McClam]

And I think there's so much of us that wants to be that baby. And like, I was even thinking about. I was thinking about one of the worst experiences of my daily life that happens to me sometimes, which is the moment when you start scrolling on your phone while the sun is setting. And then when you pick your hat up, you have all the lights off in your apartment because.

[Julia Hava]

And you just.

[Eliza McClam]

Last time, you gorgeous sunset, you missed the sunset. Now it's dark outside and you've just erased like two hours and you're sitting in the dark and you're like, oh my God, you didn't even turn on a light.

[Julia Hava]

You're fully sitting in the dark.

[Eliza McClam]

When I think about that. And then of course my instinct is like, God, better go back on that.

[Julia Hava]

Phone because you're using the phone light to like, guide you to light something else.

[Eliza McClam]

The like image that comes to my mind is like a grasping infant of like looking. Like when you're like standing in line and you're getting a little fussy, literally like a baby and you're like, I'm bored. Like, and then you go like, look at your lights and your screen. Like, there was a great Sam Chris piece about your smartphone. He's like, look at adults on public transportation. They are all playing a game where they like pop little bubbles. And like, it is the look on their face is the sort of like lobotomized, like semi concentration. Like it is that sort of like babyish. Like, like grassifier.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

Like stimulation and for comfort and for all of this stuff. And I think. But I think there's a, I don't know, simultaneous like fetishization of that state and a huge fear of that. Like, that's obviously what the conservatives say is like, liberals are all babies.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah. But I feel like everybody is.

[Eliza McClam]

I know everybody's a baby. We need to.

[PE Moskowitz]

Liberal, conservative.

[Eliza McClam]

I. We need to accept our baby nature that sometimes we want mommy having a.

[Julia Hava]

Special hat that your dad gives you is kind of baby vibes and you always have to wear it so that your dad is happy. Yeah, it's kind of. Yeah. I'm talking about the MAGA hats. Special hat.

[PE Moskowitz]

I was like, do you have a special hat?

[Julia Hava]

No, I'm just talking about like, it's very normal. It's very normal to have A special hat that your dad, Donald Trump, gives you. Yeah, No, I do think that there is. I mean, psychoanalysis is so helpful in understanding, like, so much of people's behavior on the Internet, fortunately or unfortunately. And I think. I mean, I've been watching all this, like, Belle Gibson and, like, Scamanda stuff, like, the people who are cancer fakers and they're faking cancer and getting the whole community to support them. And it's such a. Like, I want to give up everything so that I can be supported and lifted by the community. I'm willing to go that far to make something up, because that's how badly I want to be taken care of.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right. Right. And I think we're all doing that to a certain extent, like, not faking cancer or whatever, or hopefully we're all faking cancer. But I think, like, there's nothing wrong with fantasy, first of all. Right? We. I scroll in a dopamine hole and feel like a baby sometimes, too. Like, often, you know, being hungover, sitting on the couch, scrolling. I'm like, this is my. This is my baby time. But I think, like, between, like, reality and then fantasy, there's a. Or after fantasy is a third step, which is, like, what you actually need when you're fantasizing, you know, and it's like, so when you're scrolling and in your baby dopamine hole, then, like, what is that actually about? And it is probably about the fact that you feel like you don't have enough comfort in your life. You're lonely. Yeah. That you're lonely. That you need to be held.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

That you need someone there to, like, stimulate you, you know? And, you know, people are having less and less sex. They're hanging out with friends less and less. Like, statistically, we're spending, you know, something like 20 more hours per week on average alone than we were even, like, 15 years ago. And so when we go into these, like, little dopamine holes or whatever, what we're really saying is, like, we miss our friends. We miss stimulation. We. We miss these things that make life worth living. And that doesn't mean that the dopamine scroll is bad, but it means that if you replace the things you're actually missing with it for long enough, you're going to forget what you're actually asking for.

[Julia Hava]

But you're also never satiating, like, the.

[PE Moskowitz]

Actuality that you have, which is edging.

[Julia Hava]

It's literally edging into.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah. And something else I've noticed is a way that people kind of justify that. That loneliness and that isolation through, through psychology or like fake psychology, it's a trauma response. Or like, or like, you know, fake attachment theory stuff. Or they're like, if this guy doesn't text you back in two hours, then you don't need him. Like be the own, your own love of your life or whatever. It's like, no, I think you do need that guy.

[Julia Hava]

Like, I mean, maybe not him reaction that something.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right. Like you're not self sufficient.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

You're not someone who deserves to be sitting at home alone just feeling proud about how, you know, lonely you are. Because at least you're not in conflict with someone. Like, yeah, like, don't justify the things that are missing from your life for yourself. Like the world is going to do that enough for you. Why are you, why are you then like, you know, adding your stamp of approval to being like, actually it's good that I'm lonely. Actually it's good that I stare at my phone all day.

[Eliza McClam]

And that's, I think that's the similar thread through like Andrew Tate and through some of like the sort of like dark feminine influencers or whatever or the hyper clean girl or whatever. Like I just get up and go to the gym by myself and like the whole day where she's like filming herself and you literally never see her in another single other person.

[Julia Hava]

Well, it's, I think also a lot of that like our atomization is contributing to. A lot of people wrote in the I don't owe anyone anything ideology that's making us really stupid, which is like, you know, once again, be independent. You don't owe anyone anything. Send that I'm at capacity text to your friends when they're having a mental breakdown. And it's a very bizarre our place. I mean it's like, it's very bowling alone vibes, I guess.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah. I mean, theoretically you don't owe anyone anything. But then don't expect your life to be good if you.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah, yeah. Like your life will be bad.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah, yeah. I mean to be in community with people is to be in conflict. It is to be hurt. It is to owe people things. It is to act as their parent when they need a parent and to be their child and their, their parent when you need a parent. You know, it's like we're all in need of each other tremendously. We all hurt each other tremendously. Those two things go together like they're inseparable and if you try to separate them, you end up with neither.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah. Yeah. That's really powerful.

[Eliza McClam]

Damn. That was Some real shit. No. Well, I was thinking, of course, of, like, conflict is not abuse, and, you know, all of that, too.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on. Because I get so pained in general, but also, like, thinking about sort of trying to gather up all of these sects of the left that I feel like are so close.

[PE Moskowitz]

Sects? Like.

[Eliza McClam]

Like sex.

[Julia Hava]

Sex of the left?

[Eliza McClam]

Is that the term that I'm meaning? S E, C T S? Yes. Okay, great. All of those people and like, gathering them together into actually, like, forming some real coalition. Like, I just feel like there's so many. I mean, there's endless podcast conversations about the infighting of the left and all of that stuff. But I'm wondering if, like, you have any thoughts on, like, moving towards building real solidarity with people who share the same, like, actual political goals as you in the end, but I feel like are often separated by these sort of minor disagreements.

[Julia Hava]

Sure.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right. I mean, I feel like, first of all, disclaimer is like, I'm not an organizer, so listen to those people before me. But I think, like, personally, for me at least, it's like, you have to decide what you care about. Do you care about being right, or do you care about, like, doing things, you know, right? And I think so much, especially with the Internet, we've been taught to care about being right, that, like, if there's any perceived offense or if there's any kind of perceived, you know, misstatement or whatever, that, like, it's time to dunk on someone, or it's time to show how you're the most morally righteous person in the situation. And that's not how real life works and the Internet, as much as it's integrated into our real lives, I think it's very important to realize that it's not real life and that, like, most things do not happen on there. So, like, do you want to be publicly right or do you want to privately do the work?

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah.

[Julia Hava]

And people are like, I'd like to be publicly right. Why would I want to pry? I have to do the work and do it privately. Why would I want that?

[Eliza McClam]

It's really. Before rushing to condemn someone who's, like, made a minor mistake, think in your mind, like, does this person. Does it feel like this person will be useful in, like, the cause that I'm trying? Does it feel like this person could change their mind? Does it feel like this person could work together with me? Like, none of those things are being asked. It's, like, time to dunk on the person who like, made a small mistake.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right. And I have so many friends who are, like, much better people than me, who are like, union organizers or tenants, lawyers or whatever. And, like, what they all have in common is one, that they're not very online. Not in, like, a I'm detoxing from, like, not like a. I'm detoxing from social media way, but just, like, their lives are not built online, they're built in the real world. And two, is that, like, they don't give a shit about all of the infighting shit, you know, like, they have political beliefs. They. They care about things. But it's not like, when someone like me, an online leftist, is like, you know, yapping about whatever discourse of the day, they're like, oh, sorry. Like, I was, like, helping someone not get evicted or I was actually doing something.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah. And people are arguing about, like, the dumbest stuff online.

[Eliza McClam]

And I do think, like, that's another simple platitude that's actually so true. Is, like, doing something that is real is way better for your brain.

[Julia Hava]

Right? Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

Or just doing something that's not real, you know, which I think the same as being right on the Internet. I'm wondering if we should get some of your, like, quick thoughts and we can sort of discuss more of the things from the list that people.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah. Should we pick some of the things from the.

[Eliza McClam]

Okay, well, because I want to talk about food delivery.

[Julia Hava]

That's it. That's under weird social behavior.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

Because I know you've written about this before.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah. So I guess, like, a year and a half ago at this point or whenever. What. What is it? March, February, February. A year and two.

[Eliza McClam]

Yes.

[PE Moskowitz]

A year and two months ago, my New Year's resolution was to stop using food delivery apps because I had gotten, like, pretty dependent on them.

[Eliza McClam]

Like, amazing resolution, can you say?

[PE Moskowitz]

I mean, it really. One, changed my life in numerous ways, but two, made me realize that New Year's resolutions actually are cool.

[Eliza McClam]

Oh, I'm obsessed with that. That's pretty amazing.

[Julia Hava]

You kept one.

[PE Moskowitz]

I mean, I've gone a little back and forth, but that's. I feel like that's the point of a New Year's resolution. It's like, it's a goal to be, you know, sought after, not something that you have to do, like, 100% for it to make sense or whatever. But so, yeah, so I would, like, be hungover and, like, go on doordash or whatever and spend, like, $60 on mediocre food or whatever.

[Julia Hava]

Yes. $60 on a bagel.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah, literally. And I just realized, like, what am I doing? Like, this is in the name of, like, comfort and convenience. I'm actually making my life much worse because it's keeping me in the house. I'm sitting there scrolling until it's dark outside and I don't even realize. And I could just, like, go down the block to the deli, spend a bunch less money, and, like, have to force myself into the sunshine and have a social interaction. Yeah.

[Julia Hava]

The person who works there.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah. And the more I did that, the more the idea of food delivery apps, like, started seeming, like, incredibly psychotic to me. Like, the fact that it's become so normalized to, like, be home alone and get, like, someone to bring you food and then never interact with anyone.

[Eliza McClam]

Like, while you're eating, have them leave.

[Julia Hava]

You don't even have to open the door.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah, the door. No. And then, like, people have, like, the temerity to be like, oh, no, I got, like, a male Instacart. It's like, sorry, you couldn't go to the grocery store yourself and made someone else do it for you. Like, yeah, like, there's always reasons to do those things. I'm sure there's, you know, plenty of, like, exceptions to the rule.

[Julia Hava]

Right.

[PE Moskowitz]

But I think, like, often people use those exceptions to the rule to, like, provide cover for themselves when they were just being lazy or whatever.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

And I would do this. I would do the same thing. But, like, now that I stopped doing that, and to be clear, like, if I'm sick or, like, if friends are coming over and we want to have, like, a pizza party or whatever, there are exceptions. But, like. But since I stopped using food Delivery apps, like, 99% of the time, it literally has, like, markedly improved my life.

[Julia Hava]

In what way do you think it's improved your life the most?

[PE Moskowitz]

It's just, like, kicked me in the ass to fucking do things.

[Julia Hava]

Get your ass out at work.

[Eliza McClam]

No, I totally feel that.

[PE Moskowitz]

Even if it's just literally walking down the block, it starts my day. Or even if I'm just making a quesadilla with, like, the leftover cheddar cheese in my fridge, and it takes, like, five seconds. It's like I had to, like, move my arms, you know, like, more than I could say before.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

I feel like that's another. Like, food delivery is one of those other, like, passive things that takes you out of realizing how much work goes into everything in the world of, like, this sort of frictionless existence and taking yourself outside. Like, watching the guy at the deli make the sandwich with his own two hands and then like wrap it up and hand it to you. Like, makes your brain turn and like. Ah, yes. Like everything comes from somewhere. And like, people have to work in order to make the things that I enjoy. And I have to work in order to seek those things out.

[Julia Hava]

You need several ingredients to make a.

[Eliza McClam]

Sandwich and just like. And these ingredients were like shipped from across the world. Like, that's crazy. Like, just forced to interact, like the reality of what's going on. I like, had a similar journey with you with food delivery because I was like, in la.

[Julia Hava]

We were in L. A. We were, I mean, using those. Food delivery.

[Eliza McClam]

Oh my God. Yeah, it was really bad. I was, I was wasting so much money. Yeah. And was alone, like in my house, was getting food delivered to me all the time. And then when I moved to New York, I like, made a resolution. I'm like, I'm not. Also, doordashing in New York is crazy. Like I can't.

[Julia Hava]

Much more understandable for us, I guess, to have DoorDASHED in LA and I.

[Eliza McClam]

Since DoorDASHED in LA is a good title, to have door dashed in LA. Yeah. That's gonna be my Joan Didion tree dice. But yeah, since I moved to New York, I just decided I'm like not gonna doordash anymore. Which is stupidly easy in New York because everything's like a block away. And except for the times that like, I've been sick, I haven't. And it is that sort of involvement in. In the friction filled world that is sort of joyful, actually.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yes.

[Julia Hava]

Well, it's also one of those things that's supposed to make your life easier, but it's like when the washing machine was invented and everyone was like, these housewives are gonna have so much more time on their hands. And it's like, well, because that's easier now, there's like even more things you have to do. Like now that you can get food delivered to you, you should also be working during lunch, Right?

[PE Moskowitz]

Exactly, exactly. Or like it's. It would be different, you know, if you're like a working mom and you're doordashing like. Yeah, I don't really have like a leg to stand on to tell you not to do that. But like, are you door dashing because you're really busy or because you want to like dopamine scroll for two hours and getting in the car or walking down the street would prevent you from.

[Julia Hava]

Doing that, you know, and it slows you down. Like when you go out and do Things you feel energized to do more things. Like, that's how it works when you do things.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah.

[Julia Hava]

Well, another thing under the weird social behavior category is using algorithm censored words in real life, like graped and unalived. I can't say I've ever used those terms.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah. Thankfully, I'm not in community with anyone who's ever sent those words to my human face out loud. But. And it may be one of those things that happens more online than, like, we think it actually even it happening online is.

[Julia Hava]

Is weird because people censor things that I don't think are even getting.

[Eliza McClam]

I'm like, I don't think you would. Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

Did you see there was like, a post from, like, a museum where I forget who it was. It was like a historical figure.

[Julia Hava]

It was like Anne Frank was unalive.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah. No, literally. Yes. Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah, that.

[Julia Hava]

I mean, it's.

[Eliza McClam]

That's dark.

[Julia Hava]

We're also just like, changing the meaning of words. And also it's like, you really are. Like, you're really happy to comply with the censorship. Like, you're going out of your way to censor even more things that you might not even have to.

[PE Moskowitz]

I mean, when the way people were defending Tick tock in general, like, when.

[Julia Hava]

They thought it was so scary, the way I saw people respond, like, they were like, what am I? This is my life. And I was like, this is your life?

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah. And like, I understand. I'm not pro the government banning any. Yeah. Because that's scary. But like, the way people were, like, actually the reason they want to ban it is because it's made everyone into a leftist. And it's like, Donald Trump just got reelected. What do you mean everyone's a leftist?

[Julia Hava]

Well, that's the other thing is people think that what they see on the Internet in these small communities that are like, algorithm designed or like, that's the world.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah.

[Julia Hava]

Like, I remember when I was like, like, I don't know, I voted for Bernie in the primary and I was, like, shocked that he didn't win. And it's like, that's because I was only following people on Twitter that, like, also voted for Bernie.

[PE Moskowitz]

Oh, my God. In 2020, I guess, like, right before COVID I was living in New Orleans and drove to Texas to campaign for Bernie in the primary. And I was like, in such one of those circles where I was just like, everyone's gonna vote for Bernie. And then we got there and like, the field office had, like, three people in it, including, like, one sad man. Like, Playing a banjo really badly. And I was just like, oh, he's gonna lose.

[Eliza McClam]

That's exactly how I felt. Cuz I went on tour October of last year and. And it was like, you know, we went to like Kentucky and like upstate New York and like all the, you know, not the major cities.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

And like we got back from tour and Kate, my bestie and tour manager is like, oh fuck, he's gonna win. Like just being around more people in the country and being like.

[Julia Hava]

Because we don't want to see things that make us uncomfortable. We're not aware of. Of reality also.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right. And I think that's part of the like addictive thing about the Internet is that you can curate your reality to feel more safe. And you really can. And like it. The world is getting scarier. Like let's.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

Real objectively, but like it's two sides of the same coin. Like the more time we spend curating these false realities that are completely individualistic to ourselves, the less engagement we have with the world. And it's like the kind of like eyes on the street thing. Like the Jane Jacobs, like what makes a neighborhood is that, you know, you send your kid to school and like the deli man watches your kid like walk down the street. And like the old like fusty lady who's like yelling at people, like, is a form of safety. She's like seeing everything. It's like the more we retreat into these worlds because they make us feel safe, the more dangerous we make the world. And then it's just this cycle that goes on and on.

[Eliza McClam]

And the way that you learn how to keep yourself safe is by encountering situations in which you are not 100% safe.

[Julia Hava]

Like when Sabrina Carpenter performs forms in front of you. That was another thing that we got.

[Eliza McClam]

17 and that sex piece, that was.

[Julia Hava]

Like, Sabrina Carpenter is like making me uncomfortable because she's so sexual. And like I'm 15 years old and like I shouldn't have to see that. And like, I mean people find things. So I think people want to find things really threatening, but it's not the things that actually they should be threatened by. It's like kind of innocuous. Like Sabrina Carpenter being a pin up doll. Yes.

[Eliza McClam]

Well, I think also like the causes of our Malaysian oppression are so like depressingly obvious. Like they're like, you have to make Sabrina Carpenter instead. How I feel about sort of like the culture critic industrial complex, which we.

[Julia Hava]

Are all, obviously we are all part of. But it's.

[Eliza McClam]

Yes, obviously it's like the racism and the sexism and the homophobia and the imperialism and the colonialism and all of that. Maybe it's also Sabrina Carpenter. Like, could that be a new thing that I would say?

[Julia Hava]

Well, that is something. It's true.

[Eliza McClam]

It's true.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah, I agree. It is Sabrina Carpenter.

[Julia Hava]

It is Sabrina Carpenter.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah, it's Sabrina Carpenter. Guys, good news. We all people, we found it out. Well, I guess my. My impulse here as, like, the podcast host who wants to, like, wrap it up and send everybody off into their good days, be like, what's giving you hope these days? But I feel like I want to have a more interesting question. Unless you have an immediate response to things that are giving you hope these days.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah, I mean, I kind of do. Which is just, like, friends. Like, I got. I got into a fight with my mom yesterday, and I hope she doesn't listen to this, but where she is, you know, justifiably anxious about Trump and everything that's happening in this world and the fact that, you know, Elon Musk is giving Nazi salutes and whatever, you know, it's like, I understand completely. But she kept bringing up all of these things, and I was like, I. I can't do this anyway. Like, I just, like, can't hear this from. I hear it enough from the news. Like, I want to feel, like, safe and secure and in my bubble with you, because that is what makes me feel like I can live life is having these spaces, these sanctuaries from everything that's so bad. And that gives me power to actually maybe do something about everything that's so bad is to have these moments of respite. And so I guess last summer I was on Fire Island. I got invited there at the last, last minute on my birthday, which I would have never gone that year because it's, like, so ridiculously expensive otherwise. But just being around a bunch of weird queer people for a week, that has stayed with me, that has given me enough energy to keep going until now. And I know that's super corny, but it's just having those moments where you have everything you need, like, safety, security, stimulation, a feeling of, like, being good in your body. All of the. Like, just a little bit of that, like, goes such a long way. And so I feel like what I've been searching for more as the world gets worse and worse is just, like, more and more ways to, like, encourage that in my own life and also in other people's lives.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

And I feel like the more no one's going to be able to fight on the streets if everyone is stuck alone in their dopamine holes, you know. Yeah, you can, you can fight if you are, are, are coming from a place of security and feeling good or not, not good about the world, but like feeling like you're, you don't want to essentially, you know, off yourself or.

[Julia Hava]

You'Re capable or you have self efficacy.

[PE Moskowitz]

Right.

[Julia Hava]

You have some sort of control in.

[PE Moskowitz]

Your life and the only way to do that is like with each other.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

Yes, with complete sincerity. Being around other weird gay people is like absolutely a life affirming experience. And it's like something I need so closely and dearly. I totally get that.

[Julia Hava]

Having moments where you feel grounded in your body, like, I mean, it's just that because no Instagram reel is ever going to make you feel grounded in your body. Even the ones that are like, let's spend a minute grounding in your body right now. I mean, I just feel like I see so much content all the time that's supposed to be funny. And I actually don't laugh that much. Like I. And I had like, I hung out with Allegra yesterday and we were watching like TV and we were just having like the biggest laugh and it's like I. How am I like consuming content constantly? That's supposed to make me laugh, but I'm not laughing, right?

[PE Moskowitz]

No, it's true. I mean, because it's all just, just mind numbing.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

And I think the other thing, like going back to the kind of like Internet addiction stuff is like, like with any addiction, like to drugs or whatever, like it doesn't just like come about randomly, it comes about because you're not getting other needs met. And that's like your way of self soothing. So to me it's less about like breaking your Internet addiction. Although that too, but it's more about like realizing why you're addicted to the Internet or why you want to self isolate and figuring out like, if I have more people in my life, if I have more of a feeling of community, if I feel loved and held and yada yada, then all of a sudden Instagram reels is gonna feel a lot less interesting to you.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah.

[Julia Hava]

Like when you're on shrooms, Instagram reels just doesn't matter.

[Eliza McClam]

I love the feeling of being on psychedelics and like accidentally looking at your phone. Like, I've picked up my phone on shrooms before. I've been like, this is just a weird little box. I don't understand this. Like I'm not computing it and I feel like, we've all had moments in our lives where even just, like, in our days, for an hour, when you're, like, in a good conversation with a friend and it has not occurred to you to pick up your phone. Like, you don't even register it. Yeah. And I think that's. That's really great. That's why I, like, I've been going to yoga regularly, which is one of my little things that I do for myself that helps me because sometimes also it's very challenging for me because somebody described. I don't remember who described yoga as, like, martial arts against yourself, which I really like. And I like having that element of challenge in my day because. Because I'm like, oh, I can see something that's hard. I can stay present, like, through the power of presence, can get through it, maybe not perfectly, but in the way that I can. And it's also a time when my phone is banished for an hour where I'm literally, like, okay, now I have to experience that anxiety that comes to, like, what if someone reached out to me? Like, what if I have to do something for work? What if? What if? What if? And I'm like, well, I'm here for the next hour. So, like, that's my thing. And I feel like those moments of presence also in just, like, a very tangible level. If you need a wreck, like, I'm coming back to Tara Brock as, like. I mean, we've been on that, We've been on that, we've been on that. But I've been lapsing for a while because I didn't need it like that.

[Julia Hava]

And now when you need Tara, she comes to you.

[Eliza McClam]

Are you familiar with Tara?

[Julia Hava]

She's a. She's like a Buddhist meditation, like, expert.

[Eliza McClam]

She's incredible.

[Julia Hava]

She wrote Radical, Radical Acceptance, which, like.

[Eliza McClam]

Was the start of my spiritual awakening journey when I was, like, 18. And she does amazing free, guided meditations, but also just talks. And it's incredible because it's the same thing like, she talks about. She's been talking about the same thing for years.

[Julia Hava]

It still hits different, but it hits.

[Eliza McClam]

Different every single time. And it's one of those things that's like. That's another great thing about, like, yoga or meditation or even just, like, being with your friends is. It's that sense of, like, something you have to keep reminding yourself of, something you have to keep coming back to. And, like, that is like the sort of of re centering, like, starting again. Re centering. Starting again. Yeah. And I think that that can feel exhausting and Overwhelming, but can also feel like, oh, like, here I am again at this place where I'm reminded that, like, I'm a human and other people are humans.

[PE Moskowitz]

And it's also a skill.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah. You get better at it. I think, like, hanging out is literally a skill. Having friends is this.

[Julia Hava]

I mean, clearly, because people don't know how to do it anymore. Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

So it's like you. If you're scared, the less you do it, the worse you're going to get at it. The more scared you're going to be.

[Julia Hava]

Like.

[PE Moskowitz]

Like, you have to practice sociality. You have to practice in the real world. And then it gets easier. And the better you get at it, the better it feels, and it just keeps going and going.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah.

[Julia Hava]

That's beautiful.

[Eliza McClam]

Wow. That's really gorgeous.

[Julia Hava]

Well, speaking of shrooms, which we did at the end here, do you want to tell people about your new book that's coming out?

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah, sure. Breaking Awake is kind of a memoir, but also involves a bunch of other people's stories. And it starts about eight years ago, when I basically had a mental breakdown due to various traumas, like nearly dying in a terrorist attack and other crazy stuff. And basically tracks my own journey from the darkest days of my life to how I found stability and then how I kind of reformulated my entire life from that point of stability. And the drugs I used to used in each of those phases. So, like, the downers to keep me calm when I was at my worst, and then, like, the SSRIs and adderalls and things like that when I was trying to just be stable. And then the fun ones like shrooms and ketamine and two C. B and all of those things to kind of, like, reformulate my brain. And then I bring in a bunch of other people's stories from across the country as well. Just kind of trying to answer the question, like, why do we all need to be on drugs. Drugs to. To function in America these days.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

Yeah.

[Julia Hava]

Well, I'm really excited to read it. I will be reading back on the POD then. And thank you so much for having this conversation with us. Yeah.

[PE Moskowitz]

Thank you.

[Julia Hava]

And where can people find you?

[PE Moskowitz]

I was gonna say my Twitter, but I don't want anyone to go on my Twitter.

[Julia Hava]

Don't. Don't recommend your Twitter.

[PE Moskowitz]

You can go to Moscowitz. Xyz.

[Julia Hava]

Okay. Awesome.

[Eliza McClam]

Amazing. Yeah. Subscribe to the newsletter. It's really incredible. I've been reading it for years. Loved every second.

[PE Moskowitz]

Thank you so much.

[Eliza McClam]

Yeah. Well, it's time for us to thank Our godly What?

[Julia Hava]

Our community.

[Eliza McClam]

Our community. Hope you guys are all hanging out. Oh, speaking of hanging out, all our matchmaking stuff.

[Julia Hava]

Oh, yeah. We did a thing where we matched people from different cities so they can be friends with each other. Yeah, I know. So hopefully you will have gotten a match by now if you participated and.

[Eliza McClam]

If you're in a big city like Chicago or New York or something. We have had literally hundreds of people, so we've matched you in pretty big groups. I mean, they are still specialized, depending on what questions you answer.

[Julia Hava]

Depending on whether or not you like furries. Yeah, that was one of the determining.

[Eliza McClam]

Questions, which really is a big one for me.

[PE Moskowitz]

But I've decided I do like furries.

[Eliza McClam]

Oh, I'm such a furry truther. It's like, not even funny. I start crying when I start talking to people.

[Julia Hava]

But being a furry can be so beautiful.

[Eliza McClam]

And it is.

[Julia Hava]

Yeah.

[Eliza McClam]

Not only can it be, it is. Actively. It is.

[Julia Hava]

Thank you so much to Nicole Pearl Madison, Greer, Caledonia Strelow, Hannah Bow, Jasmine Savoy, Janelle C, Liz Callahan, Jacob Dutt, Kikamele, Scott Ross, Avery Volandrie, Lucy Ramsey, Sam Hymowitz, Corey Sima, Alexandria Strelow, Sammy Saunders, Lauren Heinie, Hannah Robinson, Ella Thomas, Tori Margaret, and beautiful sister Katherine Eisenbrandt, Whitney Bennett, and Amelia Jones.

[Eliza McClam]

Thank you, wives.

[Julia Hava]

Thank you, wives.

[Eliza McClam]

We love you. Love you.

[Julia Hava]

Bye.

[Eliza McClam]

We hope you enjoy your stay.