Fady & Marina: How Real-Time Hormone Data Extends Longevity

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Biohacking Beauty – The Anti-Aging Skincare Podcast

Episode Title: Fady & Marina: How Real-Time Hormone Data Extends Longevity
Host: Amitai Eshel (Young Goose Co-Founder)
Guests: Marina Pavlovich Rivas (CEO & Co-founder of Eli Health), Dr. Fadi Hanashouni (Clinician & Medical Director at Eli Health)
Date: November 19, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores how real-time, at-home hormone monitoring is set to revolutionize longevity, stress management, fertility, energy, and especially skin health. Host Amitai Eshel interviews Marina Pavlovich Rivas and Dr. Fadi Hanashouni from Eli Health, innovators behind the “hormometer” – a device enabling users to track critical hormones like cortisol and progesterone with immediate feedback. The discussion delves into hormone rhythms, bioindividuality, actionable wellness protocols, implications for anti-aging routines, and the intersection of hormonal health and the skin.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How At-Home Hormone Testing Works ([02:52])

• Technology & Convenience: Eli Health’s hormometer is a saliva-based test; users place a sponge on their tongue for 60 seconds, then snap a photo with their phone. Results are delivered in minutes, anytime and anywhere.
• Comparison to Traditional Testing:
  • Third-party validation confirms >90% accuracy (specifically for cortisol and progesterone) compared to standard lab tests ([04:03]).
  • Key difference: rapid results, user independence, tracked over time and visualized via an app.
• Data Focus:
  • Emphasis on patterns and trends rather than single-point accuracy.
  • The app provides context—showing optimal ranges, highlights deviations, and generates personalized recommendations.

2. Reading and Acting on Hormone Data ([05:35])

• Actionable Feedback:
  • The app gives user-friendly interpretations (e.g., if cortisol is high/low at a given time) and recommendations.
  • AI-driven suggestions favor lifestyle changes (exercise, hydration, light exposure) over medication ([09:04]).
• Personalization:
  • “Everyone has a different response to those different actions… that’s the importance of testing to see, for your specific biology and your specific body, how those actions are influencing cortisol levels over time.” – Marina ([10:42])
• Impact on Routine:
  • Users can optimize behaviors around workout timing, hydration, caffeine, and more based on real data about their hormone rhythms.

3. Application Examples: Protocols & Scenarios ([11:54])

• High Cortisol Protocol:
  • Avoid late-day high-intensity exercise, prioritize calming activities, maintain hydration, manage other stressors.
• Low Cortisol Protocol:
  • Maximize morning light, avoid evening light, stimulate a healthy morning “spike.”
• Adjusting by Goal ([13:11]):
  • Whether aiming for better sleep, reduced aging, or athletic performance, balancing cortisol confers broad benefits.

4. Skin Health & Hormones ([17:01])

• Interconnectedness:
  • “The skin is actually the largest endocrine organ in the body. The skin not only responds to various hormones... but actually produces its own hormones, including cortisol.” – Dr. Fadi Hanashouni ([17:01])
• Aging and Hormones:
  • Hormonal imbalances—especially high/low cortisol, declining estrogen/progesterone/testosterone—directly affect collagen, thickness, repair, and overall youthful appearance.
  • Chronic high cortisol (via Cushing’s syndrome or long-term stress) leads to thinning, dryness, and increased risk of infection.
  • Dynamic between “internal” (hormone) and “external” (skin barrier) health is crucial.

5. The Value of Frequent Hormone Testing ([20:16])

• Changing Paradigms:
  • “With products like Ellie, we're seeing a new field emerge, which is the field of frequent testing that will give us an opportunity to analyze longitudinal hormone data that we've never had before.” – Fadi ([20:30])
• Suggested Frequency:
  • “At least four times throughout the month for cortisol, once in the morning and once in the evening to catch that diurnal curve…” – Marina ([22:23])
  • Particularly important for women, where cyclic hormonal rhythms influence biology and skin.
• Personal Data Empowerment:
  • Analogous to HRV or sleep tracking—a one-off lab test is inadequate.

6. Women’s Health: Menstrual and Life-Stage Implications ([23:36])

• Cycle Syncing:
  • Frequent, at-home hormone tracking enables actionable insights for fertility, perimenopause, athletic injury risk, and adaptation of beauty routines.
  • Future hormone panels: progesterone, testosterone, estradiol (estrogen), with LH and FSH to come.
• Test Development Focus:
  • “We decided to prioritize hormones like cortisol and progesterone, testosterone... based on the impact we believe we can have for the largest number of people.” – Marina ([30:07])

7. Notable Use Cases & Exciting Applications ([26:01])

• Unexpected Impact:
  • “We’re always finding new use cases… skin, hair, pregnancy, athletic performance—some we envisioned, many we didn’t.” – Marina ([26:01])
• Athletic Performance:
  • Hormone tracking for injury prevention and ideal timing of performance or skin rejuvenation treatments ([36:04]).
• Skin Interventions:
  • “[Athletic training and skin rejuvenation] is... equivalent... at the end of the day, the body trying to recover from very hard exposure or demand... That would also enable people to choose when they are undergoing... their monthly microneedling or... laser resurfacing treatment when their body is most able to recover.” – Amitai, paraphrased ([36:44])
• "Push" and "Rest" Days:
  • Inspired by Dr. Whitney Bowe’s “skin cycling” — hormone data can help time aggressive or restorative skin routines ([37:26],[38:01]).

8. Behavioral Impact of Real-Time Data ([39:12])

• Data as Motivation:
  • “Once people see data, do they actually change their behavior?”
    “Yes, we've seen it again and again… For example... executives... many expect to have cortisol that is higher... but for many, they discovered that they have cortisol that is lower... that's a dynamic that can occur after prolonged stressors and that's often an eye opener to take actions.” – Marina ([39:28])

9. Privacy, Business Ethics, and Data Ownership ([43:11])

• Ethical Business Model:
  • Eli Health is deliberately designed to be sustainable through products, not data sales.
  • “We are not even tempted to be in a position like those companies… where ultimately we're here to serve the customers and nobody else.” – Marina ([43:42])
• User Control:
  • Users can delete their data or limit sharing at any time; all data may be anonymized; research participation is opt-in ([45:21]).
• Hormone vs. Genetic Data:
  • Hormone data is more transient and less “discriminatory” than genetic data, reducing risk of misuse ([47:33]).

10. Looking Forward: The Mainstreaming of Hormone Tracking ([48:57])

• Adoption Trajectory:
  • “We see it as becoming as mainstream as smartwatches are today… We believe that people can benefit from it at scale.” – Marina ([48:57])
• Integration Potential:
  • Envisions hormone data feeding into wearables, health apps, care platforms.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Individual Biochemistry:
  “Everyone has a different response to those different actions… that’s the importance of testing to see, for your specific biology… how those actions are influencing cortisol.”
  — Marina Pavlovich Rivas ([10:42])

• On the Skin as an Endocrine Organ:
  “The skin is actually the largest endocrine organ in the body... The skin actually produces its own hormones, including cortisol.”
  — Dr. Fadi Hanashouni ([17:01])

• On the Value of Patterns over Single Data Points:
  “Know your numbers and know your numbers serially because hormones dance all the time.”
  — Dr. Fadi Hanashouni ([54:13])

• On Business Ethics:
  “...if you’re not the client, you’re the product.”
  — Amitai Eshel ([45:21])

• Real-Life Use Story:
  “For me... it was very, very powerful... to enable me to catch early dysregulation that I could act on to avoid potential short and long term [harm].”
  — Marina Pavlovich Rivas, describing discovering low cortisol during a period of high stress and frequent travel ([51:45])

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 02:52 – How real-time saliva-based hormone testing works
• 04:03 – Validation studies and accuracy versus labs
• 05:35 – How the app guides users and interprets data
• 09:04 – Example lifestyle interventions and AI suggestions
• 11:54 – Protocols for different cortisol patterns
• 13:11 – Customizing recommendations for health, sleep, or skin goals
• 17:01 – The role of hormones in skin health and beauty
• 20:16 – Frequency and advantages of longitudinal hormone monitoring
• 23:36 – Menstrual cycle tracking and health optimization for women
• 26:01 – Broad potential applications and user stories
• 36:04 – Hormone data’s relevance for timing athletic events and skin rejuvenation protocols
• 39:12 – Changing behavior via frequent, personalized data
• 43:11 – Privacy considerations and ethical commitments
• 48:57 – The anticipated future of hormone bio-tracking
• 51:45 – Personal insights from using the hormometer
• 53:53 – Final takeaways for listeners

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Final Takeaways

• Hormone data is dynamic and essential for optimizing health, longevity, and appearance. One-off lab draws are not sufficient—frequent, individualized tracking yields actionable insights.
• At-home, real-time testing is democratizing hormone data, empowering users to match interventions to their unique biology, cycles, and lifestyle.
• Skin health is inseparably linked to hormonal rhythms. Monitoring hormones improves not just inner wellness but also outer beauty and resilience.
• Behavior change accelerates with good data. Users adjust routines and interventions with newfound clarity.
• Integrity and privacy matter. Eli Health is building a sustainable business model that puts consumer interests and control first.
• The future is bio-individual: hormone tracking will soon be as common as fitness trackers. Data will be central to personalized longevity and beauty routines.

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For more information or to purchase hormone test kits:
Visit elihealth.com or younggoose.com

Key takeaway:
“Know your numbers—serially.”
—Dr. Fadi Hanashouni ([54:13])

“Hormone data is data that you should have access to frequently… Similarly to sleep, we wouldn't test it once a year.”
—Marina Pavlovich Rivas ([53:53])

Transcript

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Foreign.

[Host]

Welcome to Biohacking Beauty Podcast your go.

[Amitai Eshel]

To Anti Aging Skincare podcast. I'm Amitai Eshel, co founder of Young Goose Skincare. And today we're diving into a frontier that's changing the way we think about aging, stress, fertility, energy, and even skin health.

[Host]

Real time hormone monitoring.

[Amitai Eshel]

I'm joined by two pioneers at the.

[Host]

Cutting edge of this revolution.

[Amitai Eshel]

Marina Pavlovich Rivas Forbes, 30 Under 30.

[Host]

Alum and CEO and co founder of Eli Health. And Dr. Fadi Hanashouni, clinician, scientist in endocrinology and genomics, formerly with the NIH and now medical director at eli.

[Amitai Eshel]

Together they've developed the hormometer, a CES award winning device that lets you track your hormones in real time from home. We'll talk about how this breakthrough works in general, why hormones are the missing piece in most longevity and beauty routines and the protocols you can actually follow.

[Host]

From balancing cortisol to boosting sleep, fertility.

[Amitai Eshel]

And and skin vitality. If you've ever wondered why 60% of people today struggle with hormone dysregulation or how dialing in your hormones can mean better energy, deeper recovery, and yes, more.

[Host]

Youthful skin, you won't want to miss this episode.

[Amitai Eshel]

And before we get started, don't forget.

[Host]

You can go to younggoose.com and use code podcast10 for 10% off your first order. Let's dive in. All right, Fadi, Marina, welcome to the Biohacking Beauty Podcast.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Hi.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Thanks for having us.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Yeah, it's really a pleasure.

[Host]

Yeah, I didn't want to talk too much, you know, before we went on air, so. But where are you guys located? Where are we talking with you from?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

I'm based in Montreal today.

[Host]

Nice.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

And I'm based in downtown Toronto.

[Host]

Okay, so Canada. So the weather outside here probably is not as bad as what you guys have.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

It's actually not so bad today. Feels like summer still.

[Host]

Nice. Okay, fantastic. Well, I really want to jump into kind of the technology and what you guys are doing because I think it's revolutionary and very interesting. Before we dive into the applications of you guys technology, can you give us a quick rundown on how your hormone testing technology works as far as like at home?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Yes, I can give a quick overview so how it works. It's a test that you receive at home, a saliva test. You put one of the extremity in your mouth, there's a small sponge and you leave that sponge on your tongue for 60 seconds. After that you pull on the other extremity of the test and the saliva flows on the assay. So the part where the chemical reaction happens and we take a picture of the test with our phone. So what that means is that you can receive the results in a few minutes and you can do that test anytime, anywhere at home, but also on the way to work at the gym. We really unlock that possibility of real time testing and a testing that can be done wherever you are.

[Host]

Interesting. How would saliva based testing, you touched on some of it, but how would that test compare to traditional lab testing? Both as far as comfort, which you mentioned, but also as far as what validation studies have you run to build trust in results of this kind of a new test?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Yeah, so we've run third party validation studies and what we found is that OR two tests that we have currently, the cortisol and progesterone tests, have an accuracy of over 90% against traditional testing. With the advantage, of course, of being able to have those results instantly instead of either going physically at a lab or shipping a sample to a lab and waiting a few days or even a few weeks to get the results.

[Host]

Yeah, that's. Yeah. So, so mainly the. So you're saying accuracy is, is almost identical, but the difference is the, the ability to kind of see the results yourself. Even you don't need like a third party, like a, like a physician to kind of explain them to you. Everything, everything is done through, through an app. How does it go?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Exactly. So the accuracy is lower than traditional testing because at 90%, it's still not perfect. However, what we're looking at, we're more interested in the variation over time than the absolute level. And those variation, you find them in the app directly. So very similarly to a smartwatch, where you would get those results directly on the app, where you can understand what's your level, how it compares to the optimal range, are you within, above, below, and, and also different scores, interpretation, and most importantly, what you can do about it to reach levels that are optimal for you.

[Host]

Yeah. So once someone gets the result, how should they read those results? Do you provide any guidance or does the app provide any guidance to help people understand both what is normal or kind of what to do with it?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Exactly. So for cortisol, for example, levels should be high in the morning, low in the evening, and follow that diurnal curve throughout the day. And when you test, you input the time where you woke up and you're able to see if you're within that range or not. So if your level is optimal or below that range, above that range, and we provide different interpretation and recommendation to reach optimal levels over time.

[Host]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. So, for example, can you walk us through a simple protocol someone could follow either like weekly or monthly using your test to optimize their routine?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Yeah, perhaps I'll pass the ball to you if I on that one.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Absolutely. So, you know, hormones are signaling molecules and they impact different processes in the body, and gladly secretes molecules in various ways. One of the most common ways that the body regulates hormones is through what we call a dental rhythm, whereby hormones peak shortly after waking to energize the body and then gradually decline throughout the day to reach lowest levels, say at night for rest and recovery. And some hormones that follow this down rhythm or sort of this dense are cortisol, testosterone, and many others in the body. So in this context, I think it's important to measure and see if this diurnal rhythm is optimized for certain hormones. So take cortisol, for instance. We know that a dysregulated diurnal rhythm, that rhythm I just mentioned, if it's dysregulated because of life stressors or disease or exposure to toxins or steroids from certain medications, it could disrupt that rhythm. So a product like the LE cortisol hormone meter and testing kits can help in identifying whether this dental rhythm is optimized, which helps sort of give us a proxy of how healthy our stress axis is. It's called the HPA axis or the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis. So one of the use cases is to really help identify whether this down rhythm, this normal down rhythm of cortisol is sort of optimized. And if it's optimized, that's great. You can repeat the test on an as needed basis. You can also do spot cortisol testing throughout the day, weeks and months to ensure that your levels are optimized in the context of a dysregulated downward rhythm. This is when the AI powered recommendations can come handy and can suggest different wellness interventions to help optimize the algorithm.

[Host]

Nice. So if someone sees elevated cortisol or by the way, so you. Right, right now you have both an a cortisol test and progesterone test, right?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Exactly.

[Host]

So if someone sees elevated cortisol or imbalanced progesterone, what would usually what, what would the. If I understand correctly, what would the AI powered recommendation aspect offer as like first practical steps. What are usual first practical steps?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

So we focus really on lifestyle interventions. We're not recommending different medications. We what people can do through lifestyle. And that can seem basic. We all know that exercise is good, that there are some foods that are better than others. But the reality is that when cortisol is dysregulated, and that's the case for about one in three people, it can take different shape. So for example, someone can have cortisol that is chronically elevated. So yes, high in the morning, but perhaps too high. And instead of being low in the evening, staying high throughout the day. And that comes with a different set of recommendations versus, let's say someone that has cortisol that is chronically low, no spike in the morning and that stays flat throughout the day. So if we take a category like exercise, it could be counterindicated, for example, to do high intensity exercise later in the day if your cortisol is already elevated. So in that case, the type of exercise that will be recommended, the intensity, the timing, all of those details matter to reach a shape that is optimal.

[Host]

Yeah. Interesting. And other things I'm assuming like don't drink coffee too early, do drink. You are allowed to drink coffee exercise in the morning. Yes. No, things like that, probably that will, you know, will interact with, with the spike of cortisol. Probably.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Exactly. And what's very interesting is that everyone has a different response to those different actions. For example, some people react to high intensity exercise with very big spikes in cortisol that stays elevated for multiple hours after that activity. And for other people there's a very light spike or one that gets back to normal very quickly. And that's the importance of testing to see if, for your specific biology and your specific body, how those actions are influencing cortisol levels over time.

[Host]

Yeah, that's. Until now. What we had is like figure out if you have a crash at 3 or 4 or 2 or 3pm and then figure out what you did that morning. And this is obviously much, much more accurate than that.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Exactly.

[Host]

So if, if we want to give like a more coherent example, can you share an example of, of a daily or weekly routine based on someone's insight, whether they are, you know, based on, on how their, how their cortisol behaves. If you would.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Yeah. So let's say if your cortisol is chronically high, the type of recommendation that someone would get would be around lowering that elevated cortisol. So that can come with, we've mentioned it, Avoiding high intensity exercise, especially later in the day, prioritizing instead exercise that can be calming, especially later around the evening. Making sure you're drinking enough water because hydration can have an impact can be a stressor. And basically any action that can act as a stressor on the body to be mindful of it and measure if it is indeed one of the drivers of elevated cortisol. And in the case, let's say where someone has a curve that is chronically low, in that case we would prioritize different actions that could help small spike morning levels. So for example, light exposure earlier in the day and throughout the day as well, avoiding light in the evening and prioritizing different actions that enable that spike to happen in the morning and that lowering in the evening.

[Host]

Would someone with the app, are you at a position yet where you could also adjust according to someone's specific kind of goals? Whether it is as an example, like if someone wants to reduce stress related aging or, or balance hormones for better sleep, is it something that you could kind of indicate what you would like to get at the end of the road? Or they or all of them stem from the same processes which once you've dialed them down, everything kind of improves together.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Yeah. And perhaps Fadi can add more on that. But once cortisol is regulated and that diurnal curve is optimized, the benefits on the body are applicable throughout the different categories. So that's the beauty and also the dangers of cortisol is that when it's optimal and when it's not, it touches many different bodily functions.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Yeah. And we know that exercise, nutrition, you know, having an optimal sleep, wake cycle, mindfulness, you know, exposure to light or even certain light therapies can help optimize the cortisol diurnal rhythm. So, you know, to sort of summarize, it's important to know your data, your numbers, your rhythm. And having an optimal cortisol rhythm throughout the day is an important sort of barometer or marker of your stress access in the body. And conversely, having a dysregulated cortisol rhythm can increase the odds of many diseases, including metabolic disease and psychological diseases, and future risk for cardiometabolic disease, including heart disease. So identifying where you are on that spectrum through frequent testing and then getting these AI powered recommendations to ensure that you follow a wellness state. To optimize your cortisol rhythm is a healthy habit that today is made possible with the LA Hormone Meter.

[Host]

That's very cool.

[Amitai Eshel]

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[Host]

Fadi, can I ask you or Arina, can I ask you to expand a little bit on the interaction between cortisol, or elevated cortisol and skin health? Maybe explain, you know, mmps a little bit for those who are new to that concept?

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Yeah, absolutely. Let me take the question initially. So the skin is actually the largest endocrine organ in the body. And the skin not only responds to various hormones secreted by endocrine organs like the thyroid and the pituitary and the adrenal, but the skin actually produces its own hormones, including cortisol. At very small amounts, the skin has the ability to produce over 30 different hormones. And the skin is very sensitive to hormone dysregulation. And we know this from studying diseases impacting the endocrine system, including a rare disease called Cushing's syndrome, which is excess exposure to cortisol and its byproducts, whereby you get thinning of the skin, increased risk for infection and so on. So we know that, you know, lower estrogen and progesterone in perimenopause and menopause, lower testosterone means less collagen, thinner skin, more dryness, slower repair. We know that increased cortisol due to stress or these medical conditions like Cushing's can lead to disruption in the dermal layer and thinning of the skin. And this will ultimately lead to many problems that are skin related, including exposure to infection or increased risk for infection, dryness, which can impact someone's quality of life. So optimizing hormones has a direct correlation to healthy skin. And conversely, having a healthy skin can have a positive sort of interaction with the endocrine, the internal endocrine system, including taking care of one's sort of skin in the context of ultraviolet radiation exposure and so on. So it is an important dance between the skin and the endocrine system, While also noting that the skin is the largest endocrine system in and that it produces its own hormones and that we need to take care of the skin for its own sort of healthy production of hormones.

[Host]

Yeah. There is a study out of Portugal that looks at skin senescence and overall body aging and basically correlates the kind.

[Amitai Eshel]

Of hijacking of the skin brain access.

[Host]

To basically through those senescent cells to inflame the hpa.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Right, yeah, Very well said. So you've got the skin, brain, the skin, gut, the skin, other endocrine hormones. And the study has neatly showed that there's accelerated aging if we don't take care of one's skin. And so it's equally important to take care of and to understand the internal endocrine hormone system through the LE hormone meters and other products that are out there. And also to take care of the external health of the skin through application of various products to ensure that the links between the skin and the internal organs is kept intact. Yeah.

[Host]

I love that. So how often should people recheck their hormone levels? Do you recommend a rhythm for long term monitoring or adjustment? Yeah.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

With products like Ellie, we're seeing a new field emerge, which is the field of frequent testing that will give us an opportunity to analyze longitudinal hormone data that we've never had before.

[Host]

Like the oura ring of hormones, if you would.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Yeah. Or the fitbit of the hormone system. So Ellie is making hormone checking as easy as what the glucometer has done for glucose or the oura ring is doing for hrv. And I think this is very important because we know that hormone dysregulation does not occur overnight. And I'll give you a few examples. So we know that men lose Testosterone at about 1% per year starting in their 30s. And this is likely accelerated by the environmental toxins, including the endocrine disrupting chemicals that also impact our skin health. We know that in perimenopause we lose progesterone initially followed by other hormones, including estrogen. So if individuals today have the ability to check on demand instantaneously, hormones such as cortisol, testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, they will get a better understanding of where they are on these disease cycles. And they can get AI powered, informed data that will help them in introducing new health awareness and various lifestyle changes that may impact the course of their disease. So products like Ellie and the Innovation that Elli has introduced to the market will for the first time give us these sort of impulses, important data insights that will help us in creating personalized insights that will empower consumers to live healthier and hopefully longer as well.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Exactly. And something we like to compare as well is other metric like HRV and sleep. We wouldn't test or measure our HRV once per year and make decisions for the rest of the days out of that one measurement. Same for sleep, we wouldn't have a sleep score once per year and then inform actions for the rest of the year based on that data. And same applies with hormones, especially hormones like cortisol that changes frequently. Having that yearly test can be a good step to screen for different diseases. But when used in the context of wellness and reaching optimal health on a daily basis, we want to have that data as frequently as possible. So what we recommend to users today, it's at least four times throughout the month for cortisol, it's once in the morning, once in the evening to catch that diurnal curve and repeat that curve twice throughout the month. But we're seeing various frequency depending on the goals of users, with many who decide to test much more frequently than that to have that feedback loop that they can act on.

[Host]

Do you see an advantage also, especially when talking about, you know, female health and circadian, not circadian rhythm, but menstrual rhythm. And testing those hormones more often where when we test them, obviously, you know, once in a while we don't really have a contrast between, you know, where they are in their monthly cycle. And I'm positive there is a correlation between that and hormone levels.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Exactly. So the same principle apply here that having that data more frequently throughout the month can help inform different actions depending on the phase of the cycle.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Yeah. Also zooming in on the menstrual cycle, as you know, it's a 28 cycle plus minus a couple of days in certain individuals. And we recommend testing hormones at different time points of the cycle. So progesterone at day 21, estrogen and FSH in the first couple of days of the cycle, then the LH surge in the mid cycle. As you may imagine, this is cumbersome. It will require multiple laboratory visits. But empowering the consumer today with a tool that can measure these hormones instantaneously through an AI powered recommendation that will also tell the consumer when to measure according to their cycle is very advantageous. The second important point is the cost. So the LE products and the LE inventions were able to bring down the cost of testing significantly down so we can create a scalable product and a participatory product for individuals across all walks of life.

[Host]

I love it. I am curious, you know, within, within the company. By the way, I'm just going to mention we talked about the progesterone and cortisol, which are tests that you have now, but you're coming out with LH and fsh, is that correct?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

The next ones will be testosterone and after that, eschadol.

[Host]

Okay, very cool. Okay. My question is, are there applications that you specifically in the company are really excited about whether it is stress management, perimenopause, athletic performance? Obviously we're excited about skin health, but are there things that kind of drive the company and get you excited in the morning?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

What we find fascinating is that we're always finding new use cases with people reaching out to us. So skin is an example. Hair in the context of pregnancy, in the context of athletic performance and various use cases that many we were envisioning, but many that we didn't even know that we could have an impact in those areas. So for me personally, that's what I find the most exciting is the wide reaching impact that we can have with the same product.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Yeah, I'm most excited about cortisol. I trained as an adrenal disease endocrinologist and one of the most important and sensitive marker of your HPA stress access is the health of the downward rhythm of cortisol. So if we're able to measure this down rhythm through two time points in a morning and evening sample at a very low cost and as frequently as possible, it can give us an indicator of, of the health of our stress abscess, which we weren't able to do up until the LE test came to market. Now, another application I'm interested in is the introduction of testosterone, which will provide a lot of important insights to the individual, including understanding when and how and how quick the decline of testosterone occurs in the context of males, which may aid with male hormone replacement therapy. And in females, we understand that 25% of the female population suffer from this sort of important condition called polycystic ovary syndrome that's associated with elevated androgens, including testosterone. So to be able to identify patterns that may suggest dysregulation in androgens and testosterone will be hugely beneficial from a population perspective.

[Host]

Yeah, and I think, you know, testosterone and individual fluctuate individual levels of testosterone during perimenopause, something that is almost not discussed. And obviously, I mean, there is no FDA approved hormone Replacement therapy, Testosterone replacement therapy for women. At the moment, women need to resort to microdosing men's testosterone replacement therapy. So I think there is something there that would maybe open a new door. I know probably anywhere we're going to go with this conversation is going to be seemingly a new door opening, but this seems to be something major.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

It's very exciting. Let's not forget that testosterone is as important of a hormone for females as well. There are testosterone receptors all over the body. And in the context of skin, we know that testosterone impacts collagen, it impacts, it thins the skin, it contributes to dryness. We also know that testosterone adds thickness when replaced. When optimized, it can also impact on quality of life, libido and mood and cognition and so on. So having the ability to measure it at a very low cost through a scalable product that's AI powered will ultimately, I think, create more awareness in how testosterone is equally important in females.

[Host]

100%. Will there be a nuance between testosterone and DHT, or would it be.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Yeah, so, you know, DHT is a very interesting sort of analyte to measure as well in this context. But in the context of these rapid instant salivary tests, we are sticking to testosterone measurement for now. And maybe Marina can discuss, you know, why we chose those hormones and the challenges of measuring, you know, other hormones that are not part of our portfolio today, given the limitations of saliva.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Yeah, well, to. To arrive to those tests, it was six years of R and D across the chemistry, the hardware, the microfluidic, the AI detection component, integrating all of that into a system that is easy to use for consumers. So for sure, this infrastructure that we build now makes it easier, not easy, but easier to add additional biomarkers, including testosterone. That will be coming up soon. But for each hormone, it comes with its own set of challenges, one of them being the limit of detection, that different hormones and different biomarkers are present in different concentrations in saliva. So we have to be mindful of targeting different biomarkers that we can find in enough concentration in saliva to provide that same experience. But how we decided to prioritize hormones like cortisol and like progesterone, testosterone, it's based on the impact we believe we can have for the largest number of people. When we look at cortisol, for example, it's a key hormone for women, but for men as well, across ages, across life stages, across use cases as well. So it was an extremely impactful hormone to start with. And same goals for progesterone and testosterone. That are extremely important for men and women and sometime both. So that's how we approach it in general, the pipeline.

[Host]

I love it and I agree. And it's also. Thank you for the explanation of decision making. To me, it's obviously fascinating. I don't know if to listeners, but let me ask you, we covered it a little bit, but I would like you to see if you can expand on it. How can hormone tracking and you can get to any, you know, you could get into any hormone that you would like. How does consistent hormone tracking with something like your test be applied to optimizing someone's skin health beauty, whether it's skin elasticity, aging, or even something pretty interesting as a skincare manufacturer to responses to different skincare products, Perhaps I'll let you.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Fight you on that one.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Yeah. I mean the question is who benefits from tracking? And I can give you a few use cases, women in midlife, right. That are experiencing, say, stress and they want to ensure that they've got an optimal stress system in the body. So one of the sort of barometers of that would be to test the cortisol renal rhythm and then to do spot cortisol testing in relation to certain factors, life stressors and factors that is believed to be contributing to elevated cortisol. So then they can go and create biofeedbacks and perhaps avoid these stressors in life in the context of hormone dysregulation in the perimenopause menopause period. Another application would be to measure testosterone, estradiol and progesterone and to see if these sort of trends and markers over time may be suggestive of a dysregulation that would require from another category of individuals that will benefit, I think tremendously from hormone tracking. Are the athletes and athletes under stress or athletes that have frequent or are at risk of injuries. And we know that there is an important association between the timing of the menstrual cycle and certain sports injuries. We know that elevated cortisol pre an athletic event can potentially increase the risk for certain injuries and or performance. So understanding the numbers and the dynamics of serial testing pre and post exposure may be beneficial to the individual. And the last category that I would like to highlight are sort of men with fatigue or low libido or under sort of various stressors that want to understand their numbers over time rather than a single laboratory time point which will help them in making better lifestyle choices.

[Host]

Love it.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Yeah. And when it comes to skin specifically, for sure, there's an impact as well when it Comes to cortisol, we touched on it a bit earlier. When it's dysregulated, there's impact across most bodily function and it does translate into the skin as well. And for hormones like progesterone, the phase of the cycle comes with different impacts on the skin, where sometimes the skin can be more dry, sometimes it can be more oily. And having that information around those hormone fluctuations can help not only improve the skin from the different actions that are being made, but also inform which product, depending, for example, on the moment of the cycle, can be the most appropriate to leverage.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Yeah. And if I may expand on the women in midlife, you know, as discussed, one of the early hormones to decline during perimenopause is progesterone. And so if. And that may cause sleep issues, anxiety and other symptoms. So tracking helps potentially anticipate and manage these symptoms and help inform whether the individual is in the perimenopause stage. So you can imagine if you test and you've got declining progesterone over a time period which can be weeks, months or years, or if you get no progesterone values at all, then that may suggest that we're dealing with a condition that will require further medical intervention.

[Host]

Yeah. And you know, two things that arise to me from what you're saying. First of all, when you're talking about athletes, when people go and do what we call in office skin rejuvenation protocols, whether it basically things that are introducing injury to the skin at a level that, that is higher than normal, then should be used consistently, things that introduce a level of trauma to the skin where the skin then responds hopefully positively. And that is kind of equivalent to athletic performance, because athletic performance is, at the end of the day, the body trying to recover from very hard exposure or demand. What I'm hearing from it is that that would also allow people, or enable.

[Amitai Eshel]

People to choose when they are undergoing.

[Host]

Whether it is their monthly microneedling or their bi, yearly laser resurfacing treatment, where they are going to time it with when their body is most able to recover well through the inputs. Would that be correct?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

That can be a possible application. Because when you're noticing that you're, let's say, say let's take cortisol, that your curve is dysregulated, you can take action and wait until it's optimal before having additional stressors on your body.

[Host]

And the second thing I'm hearing is that you did allude to it, Marina, which is Dr. Whitney Bowe, kind of popularized the Kind of push, push whatever, push days or rest days for the skin. Right. Like some days that we're going to use more higher percentage of retinols, whatever that is. And some days we're going to allow the skin to rest. That is also something, and you can alluded to it that you will be able to kind of realize when you need to push your skin a little bit further and when you might want to kind of give your skin some rest because of those changes, namely cortisol.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Yeah. And we're seeing sort of this trend of the cortisol phase. Right. Cortisol cocktail, you know, on, on a lot of the social media platforms. And what this really highlights is those under constant stress, whether it's psychological or physical stress, can have chronically elevated cortisol that can really cause water retention and an impact on the facial structures and symmetry and the adiposity and the redistribution of adiposity in the upper torso. And that can give them sort of the appearance of a puffy face, which is not sort of pathologic. Right. Which is not sort of the Cushing syndrome spectrum that I mentioned earlier. You have chronically elevated cortisol and sort of permanent changes unless the underlying problem is treated. And so we know that a stress impacts hormone levels. Hormone levels impact the look and feel of the individual, including skin. So if you have the ability to measure that through serial testing and that will sort of give you an idea of how you could understand the trend and then potentially intervene sooner than later.

[Host]

Beautiful. And do you see people actually get spurred to action because of more of more frequent data. Once people see data, do they actually change their behavior?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Yes, we've seen it again and again and that's the most exciting part of this technology and we've seen a lot of people be surprised by the results as well. For example, in populations that are under high pressure, a lot of stress, let's say executive. Many expect to have cortisol that is higher than what it should be. But for many, they discovered that they have cortisol that is lower than what is optimal. And sometimes that's a dynamic that can occur after prolonged stressors and that's often eye opener to take actions and to know which type of actions to make.

[Host]

Love it. So let's talk a little bit about. Unless you want to add anything. Fadi.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

No, you know this, this important product will provide an information layer or individuals to act upon. It's not meant to be diagnostic. It's not meant to replace the medical expertise and sort of the diagnostic labs that we have today to confirm disease, but more importantly to provide an important information and data layer for the individual so they can potentially change their behavior towards a healthier behavior which will then impact health overall and well being, of course. So that is really the intention of this product. And imagine a world where we all wake up and where we've got all these datas and the hormone insights that will help inform how we want to proceed with our day and that will have a huge impact on our wellness state. And I think if we can optimize the wellness state of every human through these technologies, imagine what we could do long term to circumvent disease.

[Host]

I love it.

[Amitai Eshel]

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[Host]

I do want to shift a little bit and talk about privacy and ethics a little bit because I know some people. The minute that they hear about new technology and some data that is shared somewhere on the ether, these are questions that come up. So how do you protect sensitive hormone data when you have an AI interactive app? First of all, what's your stance on privacy or data ownership? I think we've learned from 23andMe. That's something you need to ask first. And then how is it being protected?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Yeah, well, the very first step starts at the business model level. What we've seen in the past with many of those companies that had scandals around data privacy, often they had the product that in itself was unsustainable. And the real driver of revenue was selling the data was the data. Exactly. In our case, from the very beginning of the company, we wanted to design a company that would be profitable with the main product itself, the test, so that we are not even tended to be in a position like those companies were in the past and where ultimately we're here to serve the customers and nobody else. So that really starts with that as a foundation. But then there's a lot of things that we've implemented directly in the infrastructure as well. So for example, users can decide to delete their data at any moment. They can decide to share some data and not share other data, understanding what will be the impact on the user experience. And all data is also being anonymized and people have the option to opt in research initiatives or to opt out. So there's really different layers from the business model up until how the data is being structured to ensure that the data is being protected.

[Host]

Yeah. Wow. I love it. And it's such a good point about the, you know, the old adage, if you're not the client, you're the product. Right, Exactly. So I love that explanation. I think makes perfect sense because if you have something like, you know, different, like 23andMe or different projects and you're building so much potential energy in the form of unrealized gains because you have all this data at the end, even if you are not a company that is motivated by selling that data, you're going to become so valuable to someone else that they will buy and use that data. It doesn't have to be you, the first founder to do that. But if the model is, hey, that's not a door where we even have a, that doesn't exist. What we're looking at is creating a test driven revenue company. That's a great explanation.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Exactly. And when we see products, let's say like period, tracking apps that gain traction with millions of users worldwide, but most of them using a product for free, as you mentioned, sometimes it's not even the founders that started the company that make those decisions. But at some point there's change of control, there's different people around the table. And now you have millions of users using a product without paying and without generating a profitability. And comes back to what you've mentioned. When you're not paying, ultimately you may be the product. And that's what we've seen with a lot of Those companies that unfortunately were in such position that led to various scandals.

[Host]

It's funny that, you know, we've gone through it for the last, I think, three years where we were looking to integrate an AI face scan to our, to our website to just recommend products. And at the end of the day, we always meet the same structure where we just cannot trust what's going to happen with that data. We don't want to be the conduit for that type of data storage or data mining.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Exactly, yeah.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Also, another important point about data is that the hormone data is not as discriminatory as the genetic data when it comes to sort of the perception to the insurer or to potentially the data being misused for its potential to create designer drugs or whatnot. Which I understand the concern with genetic data, but hormone data fluctuate. You know, the type of hormone data that we connect, we collect is sort of, in today's sort of technology, difficult to discern a diagnosis. So you can't. So even if you collect, even if you analyze data on a platform like Ellie, it will be very hard to establish a diagnosis which may lead to discrimination. But a hormone related diagnosis, that leads to discrimination. But that's not the issue here. And more importantly, the advantage of empowering a consumer with their hormone data far outweighs the risks in that they will get personalized insights which may change behavior towards a positive behavior and a positive outcome.

[Host]

Indeed. Let's talk a little bit about the future. You did mention some of the next hormones or biomarkers that are on your roadmap. How do you see hormone tracking evolving in the next five or even 10 years?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

We see it as becoming as mainstream as smartwatches are today. It started with smaller groups of people that wanted to have this data to biohack and now you see it even in families where someone will have a smartwatch, their kid, their parents. It has become multigenerational. There's about 50% of household in the US that owns a wearable and we see a similar trajectory for instant hormone testing. We believe that people can benefit from it at scale. And that's her goal for the next few years. And that will come from people accessing the test directly, but also being part of a broader ecosystem where we can power other products with that information. Where again, people decide how they want to use that data, but they can decide to integrate it with their own wearable, integrated with other products that they use and even other care platform to have that continuous view of their health.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Yeah, yeah. You know the secret to the fountain of youth. And longevity lies in the endocrine system. And we see this with growth hormone, growth hormone therapy, weight loss therapies with the GLP1s. So an optimal hormone system will equal to healthier, longer lives. And if we have the means to detect and optimize hormones through the likes of the LE Hormone meter, then that's a very solid infrastructure for the future of healthy people.

[Host]

I agree. And especially with life lifestyle interventions because, you know, the, the. I think the key to staving off aging is not to have it go awry in the first place. Like, it's much harder to rein back the horses rather than, you know, rather than to keep them, keep them, whatever, whatever you do to horses.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Right.

[Host]

It's much, much harder. So I'm not. Obviously we are in this podcast. We do recommend people look into hormone replacement therapy if they need it. But lifestyle interventions and the ability to.

[Amitai Eshel]

Have many, many data points, two different.

[Host]

Things that you are doing and infer, you know, you know, your wellness routine through that is to me a much, a much more valuable tool than again, than, than just understanding if you need HRT or not.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Exactly.

[Host]

So I have a question. Again, it's, it's another thing that I'm interested in which is more personal. Do you personally use your tests and if so, give me like an insight about your own health that surprised you or changed your routine through the tests?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

I use it every day. And for me, one moment that I found extremely impactful was last year when I was raising the series A for the company and traveling a lot, going a lot back and forth from San Francisco to Montreal, changing time zones frequently and at some point, and it was in the very early days of the product when it was not yet in the hands of users, I was seeing levels that were close to zero every morning. And I reported to the team, it seems there's a bug with the test. It's always zero. There's something happening and we look into it. It was all a testing phase, so we were expecting bugs, but the team said, well, it works for everyone else. And when I got back to Montreal, we took various samples and indeed realized that my cortisol level in the morning was low. So for me, it was very, very powerful moment for the technology that we had developed to enable me to catch early dysregulation that I could act on to avoid potential short and long term effects.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Yeah, I use it to uncover my down rhythm and every time I see a healthy diurnal rhythm, which is high cortisol, in the morning, low cortisol at night gives me sort of a relief that my HPA access is functioning and healthy.

[Host]

Amazing. Okay, if listeners want to try Ellie Health, or is it. Is it Eli or Ellie?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

We say Ellie, but we accept both that pronunciation and people can go directly on the website at Eli Health, where they'll find more information about the test, but also the possibility to buy it directly online.

[Host]

Great. And to wrap things up, what's the one key takeaway you'd like people to remember about hormone health and longevity?

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

The one key takeaway is that hormone is data is data that you should have access to frequently. And especially for hormones like cortisol, it's important to see how it evolves through time and similarly to sleep. We wouldn't test it once a year. Same applies here.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Yeah, I would say know your numbers and know your numbers serially because hormones dance all the time, so. So be important to understand what we call area under the curve, which is, you know, like the. The sort of the overall 360 view of a hormone rather than just a single time point.

[Host]

Amazing. Well, guys, thank you very much. I really enjoyed this interview. I'm looking forward to the testosterone test and I wish you continued success.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Thanks for having us.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Thank you so much.

[Host]

Bye, everyone.

[Dr. Fadi Hanashouni]

Bye. Bye.

[Marina Pavlovich Rivas]

Bye.