A (3:04)

Yeah, it's very interesting and I think it was before it's, you know, it was a little bit kind of before its time as far as understanding there is a large market, I think for it because right now, you know, I'm invested in companies that are, you know, in, in the omics sciences. I think it is, if you ask ChatGPT, it's. It is definitely one of the futures, you know, the hottest kind of commodities in the future. Right. But I think when you guys started, how long ago did this start this like pre Covid.

B (3:41)

Yeah, we launched right before COVID actually. So it was really unique though because we had an audience at the pharmacy. Right. So we were trying to convert a lot of those cash pay physicians to this testing, saying, hey, quantify that what you're doing is benefiting your patient. I mean, you're reducing their risk for almost every single disease and even death itself. This testing can help you actually prove that that model out.

A (4:06)

You can't change what you can't measure.

B (4:08)

Exactly, exactly. Thanks to that quote by Peter Drucker. We used it a lot.

A (4:14)

That's very interesting. So, and I think what is interesting, that true diagnostic is doing something. It's not just lip service. Like I think you guys are doing some really cutting edge work in, within the field of like biological age testing for people who are might like not be familiar. Maybe you could break down the difference between chronological age, you know, how many birthdays you've had and biological age.

B (4:45)

Yeah, you're exactly right. Imitate. So your chronological age is how many birthdays you've had, how old you truly are, the trips you've taken around the sun. And we as we know it chronologically, just linear, right? It only goes up. We can't really say we're younger because it's the actual time we've spent on Earth where let's say you go back. I just got an invite to, to one of my reunions for high school. Let's say I go to that reunion, everyone is mostly my same chronological age, maybe give or, give or take it, a couple years older and younger. But we should all look. Or the question is, why don't we all look the same, right? If we are that same chronological age, and it's because we're all undergoing different life experiences, some of us are maybe consuming more alcohol, eating really bad food, not taking care of our bodies, and some of us are maybe doing the complete opposite. So you're going to see that difference between genotypically on the out outside, but even when you look on the inside, something is happening on the cellular level and that's really the definition of biological age. How are we aging individually? And we know that's really important and we know that's happening because we're all not getting the same diseases at the same time. We all, again, just back to that simple example of not looking the same. So it's something we can measure now. And it's really, really exciting because we know your biological age that's going to be more predictive of health outcomes than just your chronological age.

A (6:14)

Definitely. I think it is. The only reason you would even use biological age in anything is because you cannot measure enough into the biochemistry. Maybe in the future you would be allowed to drive a car, drink alcohol and make other life changing decisions only according to your biological age or your brain development or whatever that is. Maybe, I don't know.

B (6:38)

I, I think so. I think too when you, when you go to the doctor's office, right, obviously they have your, your birthday and they'll, they'll eventually maybe ask, hey, what's your chronological birth date? And then what's your biological age? And again, who knows what the future holds. But maybe there's a device or a machine you can touch or put a sample into it, it can spit out kind of your biological age and you know, a couple minutes even. We're not, we're not there yet. We're definitely not there yet. But you know, this technology is just advancing rapidly. I know you mentioned AI earlier. I don't know if you've messed with any of the deep learning kind of models that ChatGPT has come out with recently. But I mean, we're on the growth spurt right now, right? There's really interesting technology coming out where I think we'll really be able to excel this field.

A (7:28)

Yeah, I think we are dealing with them a lot and I think there are, I think most people don't realize how much things are going to change. Even things that we deem extremely fundamental. Like our entire health system. Like our entire health system right now, you know, is predicated on pretty set of algorithms or. Yeah, conditions that are filled pretty much. You know, the deviation is, is very small and both When AI and machine learning and big data is going to be, is going to affect it, but also when we will start being able to implement it and extend lifespan, you know, lower our biological age, extend the span within we operate as human beings, I think things are going to change dramatically. And I know so, so up to like 2018, 2017, 2018, I was sitting on some think tanks within allopathic medicine and I can tell you that back then even large insurance companies were talking about this is the type of like an event horizon that they can really cannot predict or they're very afraid of what's going to happen once big data is implemented, even 2016, once big data is implemented into real life, right?

B (9:02)

Yeah, absolutely. And that's what we're seeing with even some of the studies we're doing now. I think we're at a crossroads where we're seeing the Excel in the AI and the machine learning and epigenetics at the same time. So what we're actually using to look at the biological aging very plainly, it's how we're expressing our genes. Really everything we're doing and how we're interacting with our environment is what's going to express some genes and not express others. But with, with those kind of two powerful forces together, I think we're only limited by two things, which is the size of the data set because you need computing power and that can take a long time to really dig into it, to look into the data. And then number two, our imagination, like that's really the limit because there are so many things we can do with these extremely powerful technologies. We need to get the best people in the room. And that expands from your researcher who's doing bench work in the lab, you know, looking at these markers. But even to, you know, us in the field creating these products or creating these diagnostic tools because we're actually doing the commercialization of the research. Then furthermore, to the clinicians that we work with, I know you all at Young Boost work with a ton of clinicians, so actually being able to say, hey, this is how you use this product, this is how it helps out our end patient. So it's a cycle and every single person in that cycle is extremely important to bringing in my world, those two technologies together. But we're going to see really some revolutionizing reports. Because I think nowadays too, when you get into a lot of these diagnostic tools, there's too many biomarkers, right? And that's super overwhelming to the end consumer. We're working on actually creating and developing an app, because I think one of the lowest hanging fruits you can actually be able to create for the end user is a way to digest that information. And you can't do that with hundreds of biomarkers. You can maybe save your report and pop it into AI and ChatGPT and say, hey, give me some recommendations. But even then, all of your data points are in different places. So yes, that's the goal.

A (11:12)

Yeah, for sure. To your point, I'll agree with you in two areas. Number one, what we care about is less to tell you the story of your biological age or biological skin age as far as like, I would say as far as like, I told you so type scenario. Right. This is pretty cool for us as a company. You know, we have had some people going to more like visual diagnostics tools like Vizia and the Vizia showing them, hey, yes, you are now, you know, visually two years younger or whatever. But for us it's more about like empowering the clinician. And we, we are going to launch a metabolomics test which is a more nitty gritty, I would say like cellular capacity test to, to which we're going to tie different products to, to say, hey, hey, you know, if you're lacking though, or those metabolomes are less than optimal, this is what you can use. And I think everyone knows we talk about spermidine a lot, so spermidine is one of them. But I'm going to agree with something else that are within the biomarkers or you know, for us, the more biomarkers we're going to measure there, the less we're going to be accurate. So from the ability to measure, you know, 200 something biomarkers, we only are measuring 17. Not because we are not on air, but what makes me laugh a lot is different companies offering a genetic test but measuring five SNPs. So it's not because we're trying to be economical in our measurement, rather we're trying to be very accurate with our measurements. So I agree with you in both areas there, 100%. And talking about, you know, skin specific, a lot of people who listen to this podcast obviously are obsessed with slowing down skin aging. Obviously I am obsessed with it from a, from a, from a research standpoint. But, you know, that's why most people tune into this podcast. So how does biological aging show up in the skin?

B (13:20)

Oh yeah.

A (13:20)

And I think, you know, people see people, people like, I'm not going to name any names that are, that I'm going to meet later, but let's say Wim Hof. We hear that a lot. You know, this guy is, you know, doing ice baths every day. Poor guy. Half the comments on YouTube are, but you look old. Right? And we hear it about other people in the field. Obviously I don't want to name names, but how does. So what is the relationship there between like biological aging in general and skin aging?

B (13:48)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I will say if you look at someone, yes you can. It's so subjective, right? We all, we all have kind of opinions and different feelings on what makes someone look older, what characteristics. You definitely say the more wrinkles or kind of the gray hair, et cetera. I think most people would probably agree on those. But we absolutely know that accelerated aging demonstrated by any of the epigenetic clocks we're looking at is going to result in an older looking phenotype. And again, you can define older in a lot of different ways. But one that I will bring to light is a really great clock. I'm sure, hopefully maybe most of your listeners are familiar with it. It's called the Dunedin PACE algorithm. This is one that doesn't give you an age like a true biological age. It gives you a rate of aging compared to a speedometer, so that the Range is from 0.6 to 1.4. If you're at 1, you're kind of in the middle there. You're aging one biological year for every one chronological year. And you want to be as low as possible. And the way they created this clock was super interesting. They basically took about 1100 people from Dunedin, New Zealand and followed them all the way from when they were 3 years old to 53 years old. They're still studying the group today. They were born in 1972 and 1973. So it's just fascinating. What they did along the way was take all the facial imaging and scans that you could ever imagine. So they actually had the same group of people. They lived in Dunedin. They were exposed to the same things for the most part. They lived the same type of lifestyle. And what you could see, I could send this image if you want to put it out there in a blog or something later. What you can see is the people who had the slowest speedometer, the slowest rate of aging, looked super young. Then you had people who had the average. They were around that one area. They looked a little older than the slower people. But then you had people who had really fast paces of aging and they just looked way older. I mean, way older. More wrinkles, more defined lines, more sagginess. Of the face, I would say so that demeaned pace metric, we actually have true evidence, facial evidence, images of the faces that appear to look older. So I think that one is really interesting and I'm just talking about broad aging clocks, biological age clocks. Right. I'm not even getting into some of the really cool science where we can even take a sample from your skin and we'll talk about kind of what, what we've seen with development of skin aging clocks. But there's, there's a clear, clear connection and it's a way to treat aging from the inside out. Right. Because again, you could look super young, but maybe there's some cellular damage still from the past from not taking care of yourself. So we see a clear connection.

A (16:43)

Yes. And I know and you know, I know that the main issue with, I would say like portable, usable, like app based applications are mainly due to, like, mainly due to interface or mainly due to the ability to take, you know, consistent photos and things like that. Like these things are being developed as we speak. To the extent that there was an attempt by a Chinese company. I don't know what's going on with them now, but I think it was 2015 when they started, they were trying to even infer internal biological aging and infer different ongoing aging scenarios due to the way that the skin ages. And I know they were, what was messing them up again was the ability to force the user to take consistent photos.

B (17:36)

Yeah, I know for me, I forget again what app it was. It was something like that.

A (17:41)

Yeah.

B (17:41)

And I naturally have very greasy, oily skin even without, you know, any moisturizer or makeup or anything. I just always have had that. And I, you know, obviously when you take those photos with those apps, you want to be in clean lighting, you want it to be a clear image, but you're still going to get some type of shadows depending on where you take the photo.

A (18:02)

Yeah.

B (18:02)

So I took a photo, submitted it, you know, got all my results and your kind of wrinkle depth, your elasticity, your collagen percentage, all these things they're estimating based on this photo. And then I just turned my, my face a different direction and you know, submitted kind of same photo that day and got completely different results. Right. So it's, you do have to be a little bit careful then there are correlations and connections with those apps. But, but I think to really, really dive into the skin aging or how you're performing, you do need that validated peer reviewed research on it where you can take a sample and Then today, I don't know of anyone who's commercializing something like that now. There definitely will be in the future. There's a lot of really, really exciting undergoing developments happening. But I hear you. I experienced what you're explaining firsthand myself.

A (18:57)

Foreign hey there.

C (19:03)

This is Amitai, co founder and CEO of Young Goose and host of the Biohacking Beauty podcast. I wanted to take a brief moment to share something really special with you, our dedicated listeners. At Young Goose, we've always been about more than just skincare. We are about cellular care. We believe in in not just addressing the signs, but truly diving into the very source of skin aging. The reality is, as time goes on, our skin undergoes damage and this damage accumulates gradually leading to those signs of aging we all see and know very well. But what if we could hit the rewind button? What if we could delve deep, not into the layers of the skin, but into the life sustaining mechanisms of our skin cells? That's exactly what we're doing. At Young oocs. We're pioneering a renaissance in skincare by employing principles from regenerative medicine. By rejuvenating and restoring the cellular functions, our products aim to rewind time, gifting your skin a youthful, vibrant glow. And for our Biohacking Beauty beauty listeners, we have a special treat. Head over to yonghoos.com right now and use the code PODCAST10 to get 10% off your first purchase. Discover the magic of truly transformative skincare. And hey, because we value our returning customers just as much, use podcast five on your subsequent purchases to get 5% off. And the best part, that they discount. Discount can be combined with subscriptions in our already discounted systems. So why wait? Dive deep into the realm of regenerative skincare with Yungoos and let your skin. Thank you. Remember, it's not just skin care, it's cellular care. And now back to our conversation.

A (21:08)

So what is. How do you take it to the next level as far as skin aging testing? I know you guys have something very interesting. So how do you take that again? I think it's a very. It can tell a lot about decision making in a company. How do you take your ability even to look into someone's data and then extrapolate it to something like skin aging?

B (21:31)

Of course. Yeah. So, well, let's go back to basics, right?

A (21:35)

Yeah.

B (21:35)

Why is the skin age important? And I think we can already do that with our baseline epigenetic biological age pops. So we want to assess our skin health and longevity. We want to use personalized skin care and treatments. We want to, we want to evaluate really our environmental and lifestyle impacts. Right. We need to change what we're doing. But number four, I would say the most important and why people even test in the first place, that's because you want to monitor the effectiveness of skin care interventions. Right. You want to say, am I doing the right thing? And this, this is more where you get into longitudinal tracking of epigenetic skin aging and look at everything you're taking from retinoids to peptides, NAD boosters, et cetera. So I think there's a way where a specific epigenetic skin clock can look at, you know, on cellular level, certain sites, what we measure in our lab, if it's associated with collagen production, oxidative stress, inflammation barrier function, all of those are tied together and we can correlate those metrics. And you know this better than me. You're an expert with clinical skin metrics, such as maybe the face scenes you're doing in practice, such as wrinkle depth, elasticity, hydration, and then taking all of that information and recommending targeted procedures, products and treatments that directly address the patients. Because at the end of the day, that's why we do testing. We want it to be actionable. We want it to say, are we going in the right direction? So those are some of the things that come to mind. There's other areas where again, we can maybe identify hyperpigmentation, uneven skin tones, and start to really tailor product recommendations based on those results. I still think we're pretty far away from that, for what it's worth. Just because you need the clinical trials behind it to see what works and what doesn't. And it's very individualized.

A (23:29)

Yeah.

B (23:29)

So even if it's a while until we get to those, you can still do an NM1 test on yourself and say, okay, this is what's working for me. So the future vision is being able to integrate what we've talked about, the AI and epigenetics for future skin care by doing epigenetic testing results, by having skin analysis tools like the AI based imaging, and then having product matched algorithms like say, hey, these are the best combinations of ingredients and treatments.

A (23:55)

Yeah.

B (23:55)

Based off of what we're seeing and.

A (23:57)

But not to be confused, by the way. So there is a bunch of companies, I know of three. One is a skincare company and two are service providers that what they will do, they will say, hey, let's do a cheek swab. Let's basically do like a DNA test and Then we'll be able to tell you what products you need to use basically for the rest of your life. Right. That is. That is not necessarily what we're talking about, because. And maybe I would like you to explain why there is a difference between your, you know, genetic predispositions and your epigenetics, or what's going on now, et cetera. Like, how would you explain it to someone that is asking you, oh, should I do this? You know, test?

B (24:38)

I'm glad you brought that up. And I'll give a personal example for me. So I do all the testing, I believe, you know, I want all the information about my body. That's just who I am as a person. So I've done genetic testing. I actually have a particular location called the Apoe 34 variant. So I'm at increased risk for Alzheimer's. My grandmother passed away from it. I knew I had that predisposition. That's my genetics. I can't change that. I got 50% from my mom, 50% from my dad. It's stagnant. And that's still very powerful to understand and know your genetics. It does give you information about yourself, but it's. We see less and less clinicians doing it because you can't change it.

A (25:20)

Yeah.

B (25:21)

Whereas with the epigenetic testing, actually, these. These markers are changeable. You. You get some from you. You can't inherit a little bit of this. To an extent, it makes up 80% of your health outcomes where genetics only makes up 20%. And you're in control of it.

A (25:37)

Yeah.

B (25:37)

So it puts the power back into your hands. And actually, there are things I can do to mitigate my APOE 34 expression levels. Right. Like not consuming alcohol, doing all the lifestyle factors, you know, we're supposed to be doing, but even estrogen supplementation. So then there's more and more we're learning about being able to control the expression of our genes rather than changing the genes ourselves, because we can't do that unless we're doing some crazy gene editing, which. Which costs a lot and is still under investigation, which. It's out there still. Yeah, it's a possibility. I think it will be in the future. So, epigenetics, you're in charge, you're changing, you're getting real time feedback from, let's say, you know, the skincare routine you're doing. Right.

A (26:23)

Yeah.

B (26:23)

Or the products you're deciding on using. So I'm glad you asked that. There's a difference. And this is where you see it all over social Media like you're not your DNA or you are what you eat or food is medicine. All of those quotes are really describing epigenetics without saying this is epigenetics.

A (26:42)

Yes, I agree with you. I think one of the examples, it's out there, it's a very boy example. But you know a pig that you have in a kennel or. Yeah, I think that's how the pigs, that's where they live, their house anyway. And wild boar is actually the same animal genetically. But the, but the epigenetics determine, you know, tusks, fur, whatever behavior, aggression, form of face, everything. It is all about the epigenetics that if you look at the DNA level, that's the same animal and if you release that animal or if you make it grow in the wild and vice versa, it becomes the other animal. So just I think this is like an out there example. It's a very boy example.

B (27:27)

No, I like that, I like that example, actually. I don't know, like it makes obviously is a great example. I don't know that I've really ever heard that one.

A (27:35)

Yeah, yeah.

B (27:35)

At least very frequently. But another great example is like twins. Take identical twins, for example. Genetically they are the exact same. It's so funny because at true diagnostic we have, I think like we're up to three or four sets of identical twins. We actually have routine and true diagnostics. Like one of the twins works here, not, not both of them.

A (27:55)

If it was according to genetics, you would have had to pay salary also for the other one. But by the way.

B (28:00)

Right, right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, so genetically they're exact same, but right. They, they are experiencing completely different environments. So their epigenetics is very different. Their biological ages are going to be different. Their skin aging is going to be different depending on where they lived and what they're exposed to. So they had like the animal example, but the twins is just kind of your, your classic science example as well.

A (28:27)

Yeah, well, I love it. So going back to like biological age testing, do you think right now a biologic, let's say you do biological age testing throughout your, your life and maybe we can talk about how often people should do it. Can you tell how? Well a skincare routine, by the way, when I say skincare, it's including interventions, right? Like it's including professional treatments and stuff like that. Can we infer how well something is working at the moment? So for example, like if someone used, you mentioned like retinol peptides nad, would we be able to see a difference in their biological markers over time.

B (29:06)

Oh, absolutely, yeah. And to answer your question, you know, how often should you do this? I think everyone starting off should do it probably quarterly if you really wanted to get granular. After you start to do it quarterly, maybe even just for a year or so, then do it every six months. You'll start to understand how your markers are moving, how you're able to change them in the direction you wish to see, and then just do it for maintenance, maybe at least once a year after that. But we work with, we mainly work with healthcare providers in that integrative functional medicine space that are all cash pay. We have a lot of dermatologists that we work with or people who do have aesthetic based clinics and want to see the effects of their treatments before and after. I was just on a call before this, actually it was an internal call speaking with our VP of sales. And I was talking about one of the clinics that's a plastic surgery clinic and they test every single patient before and after all of their surgeries. You're giving enough time in between to heal from the surgery, but they're also on a certain interventional treatment plan with different serums, creams, what have you in between. So it's, it's, it's really interesting and we're, we're seeing reductions. I'm excited to do a larger clinical analysis on that plastic surgery clinic. But we'll, we'll see. We're collecting a lot of data right now.

A (30:29)

Yeah, it reminds me, Dr. Cameron Chestnut, he's in Spokane, Washington. They do insane things around that. Shout out to chestnut. C5 is the name of their integrative place. Anyway, I think one of the coolest things about biological age testing is how you can predict like future health risks, which we kind of, you kind of touched on. What are some of the things. So you mentioned APOE 3. 4. This is due to, you know, genetic run of the mill genetic testing. But what, what kind of things can, can a true diagnostic test detect? That is different. And like, how can we, how does like knowing something like that help someone make better health choices? Because it's fun to say, yeah, you should do all the lifestyle choices. But what I've learned also on myself and also on, you know, tens of thousands of users of our products, yes, you want to give someone the, you want to assume someone's going to do the maximum, but sometimes you got to also allow to do the minimum. Not everyone is as passionate about filling the blank. Right. So what diagnostically can we infer that is different and then how can it, you know, allow us to address or pinpoint the interventions that we really need to do?

B (31:56)

Yeah, so just first off, great question, Amta, but second off, to answer that directly, aging is, I've said it, I think already on this podcast several times. Aging is that number one risk factor for every single chronic disease and death, even regardless of cancer or heart disease. COVID 19, which are major killers, especially at the peak of 2020.

A (32:20)

You could even say, by the way, I gotta give you extra points there, like, extra credit. A lot of the things that we think of as drivers of death of disease are actually at a young age are safety mechanisms that are gone awry with aging. So I could not agree with you more.

B (32:41)

Yeah, yeah, no, I love, I love that. That quote and the statistic that I just mentioned that is pulled from Dr. Matt Katerline on Twitter. He basically combined all of that public health data and created some really interesting charts around aging. So, you know, shout out and kudos to him for that. But epigenetics is everything. Remember this change, These changes occur in response to our environmental factors, like you mentioned, the diet, stress, toxins, aging, lifestyle. And this directly influences our disease susceptibility and overall health. So first off, you just kind of get into the habit of testing. And a lot of our practitioners do this as a baseline on their patients with their CBC panel, with their hormones, with their genetics as well. Pile everything together. And what I've learned is a lot of providers do this to get their patients something tangible to say, hey, if, let's just use someone who's older. It's easier to interpret results that are older because they have more things they, they need to work on biologically. So, hey, you're, you're, you're biologically older right now compared to your chronological age. We need to work on these things. If you're not working on these things, your trajectory is going to be this increase for these diseases and even death. So it almost goes back to like, oh, wow, right? I need to actually look at myself, look at my habits, look at what I'm doing, and it turns, I know it's weird to say it turns your reality into something that's like actual, you know, it's real. Yeah. I have this app on my phone called Way of Life where I put like, meditation, alcohol consumption, working out. I think those are the only three I have on there because you have to, you have to pay for more. But all I, all I, all I do every day is yes or no.

A (34:37)

Wow.

B (34:38)

So you can look at your habits over time. And you're like, oh, I'm just consuming alcohol on the weekends when my friends come into town. And then you're like, well, wait, my friends come into town every single weekend. I'm consuming alcohol every weekend. That's this many days out of the year. And you're like, whoa, what? You know, what am I doing? So. And obviously, you know, more alcohol consumption leads to higher biological aging. More meditation, more working out decreases your biological aging. So then you can kind of reflect and look and make changes in your life. And that's what the epigenetic testing, the biological aging testing serves us to.

A (35:12)

I love it. Yeah. Way of life. I'm gonna write it down. It's. It.

B (35:17)

Yeah. It's so simple, but it's a good one.

A (35:21)

I do. I don't know if people know who Jocko Willink is. Wrote a bunch of books, and he wrote a bunch of leadership books. Navy seal, blah, blah, blah. But what's interesting, that he starts by explaining that you are, first of all, your own leader, and you need to make decisions that are. That, I would say, push your own limits. And he has a very extensive chart that I follow. And every day, I. Even though I think I did really well, I learned. First of all, I learned two things. First of all, I learned that I should be realistic about the grading. I give myself, let's say to the positive, but to the negative, really, that everything is a work in progress. Like, after a while, after even a week, you stop beating yourself down for all the bad decisions you've made, and you understand that you are. You know, decisions have passed, and you learn from them for the future. I think you only can do it through consistent struggle or note taking, whatever you want to call that. Awesome. Okay, let's. I have so many more questions, and I want to make sure I get to them. Let's talk about some health risk predictions and longevity. So we have our biological markers. How many of them. Of them would you say are specifically relating to skin aging? Like, can we pinpoint why some people get, you know, more wrinkles or loss of elasticity earlier than others?

B (36:50)

Yeah, I think. I think we're. We're getting there.

A (36:53)

Okay.

B (36:53)

I think right now it's hard to pinpoint because your epigenetic markers are going to be changeable. Your genetics are not. You know, a lot of that depends. Some of it may be heritable. Right. But we know that people who smoke and drink a lot. Right. You could start to see the changes in their skin dramatically or people who get more sun exposure to healthy balance. You need some exposure, but not too much. So if we're talking about the science behind wrinkles. Right. This is a structural breakdown, loss of function and more of your skin's extracellular matrix. And this consists of collagen, your firmness and your structure, your elastin maintaining that skin elasticity, your hyaluronic acid levels. You're hydrating and plumping the skin. So as we age, these components degrade due to epigenetic changes because you're engaging in some of those lifestyle things, oxidative stress, environmental factors which lead to ultimately the fine lines, the wrinkles, the depth of those wrinkles and sagging as well. So there's, there's definitely genes we know that are associated with those. So I think it would be really interesting to perform a student study looking at the expression of those particular, like.

A (38:04)

Foxo 3 or whatever and you know, and then just see what we can do there.

B (38:10)

Right, yeah. There's some collagen in the last and production genes.

A (38:13)

Yes. Yeah. Cola 1, 2, 4 has, which is a hyaluronic acid gene. We have a very interesting group of genes that are called L U M. I don't know if you're familiar with it. It's a lumicans and lumicans are like the brick layers of collagen and these really are like, are really bad at maintaining integrity as you grow older and especially around like senescent cells, et cetera, or inflammation, oxidative stress and. Yeah, very interesting.

B (38:50)

Yeah.

A (38:50)

I think again the question is how much of it is the future and how much of it is a general discussion of aging and then just, you know, skin aging is a, is a function of that definitely. So based on the data that you, you've seen, what are the biggest things that accelerate aging? Both, you know, obviously inside and out.

B (39:11)

Yeah, I, I think it depends what route you want to go.

A (39:14)

Yeah.

B (39:14)

You know, the top factors that accelerate aging by far I think is inflammation, chronic inflammation. And you know, that's where we get the inflammation. And there are things that make this worse, obviously. Right. Your processed foods, your sugars, the orals, fried food, chronic stress, poor sleep, your gut microbiome, imbalances, you know, we can target those things. We can, we can, you know, engage in anti inflammatory diets, fasting, caloric restrictions, supplements, your resveratrol, curcumin, more of NAD based molecules as it relates to skin, again, more UV radiation and photo aging. Right. If people are using tanning beds, the excessive sun exposure, pollution, UV exposure. But Reversing that with your spf, your vitamin C and E, your serums, your red light therapy, your retinoids, high sugar glycation, smoking, pollution. So really going back to those lifestyle factors, those accelerate the most because we're doing them every day. Right. It compounds over time. So it really is doing the simple things, having a really great habitual routine and sticking with that. That's what's going to build that up. We know there are people who are really old chronologically and they look fabulous. Right. Your skin looks glowing and glowing and it's because they are doing those small things just daily, every day and it's a non negotiable for them.

A (40:38)

I agree. And I think, you know, we kind of talked about WIM hof, which is the inverse of that. But yeah, and then we apparently have to wrap up. But okay, so I agree with you. I think a lot of it is that the skin can be. We can just work on the lower, lowest kind of lowest common denominator there, which obviously we can. We. And that's kind of a lot of what I wanted to ask you, which is like, what are we sacrificing? Like we're doing a lot of stimulation for cellular turnover, things like that. But there are things that we can measure that actually are in the background, are being exacerbated. For for example, like if we stimulate more and more cellular turnover, are we shortening our telomeres, are we drawing on reservoirs that are kind of our future reservoirs? And if we're trying to then live longer, 100 years, 120 years, if you ask Aubrey, the gray 850 years, are we the end going to pay the price there?

B (41:39)

Yeah, definitely. I think that's one of the magical questions where we don't have the answer. Right. Yeah, but these epigenetic, these biological age clocks are a universal tool that we can now use and say, hey, here's what we're seeing in a really short period of time because we don't have forever. Right? You and I aren't going to be alive forever. Hopefully future generations get the wisdom from this podcast and everything we've been talking about to apply it to their research. But we're not going to be around forever. So we can't conduct these 40 year longitudinal trials and wait to test one product. We need to use these biological aging tools. Now. We know they're predictive of more outcomes. So I think it's a great place to start. But I think we're going to see a lot of growth in this field as well, because of again, the revolution with AI, the large learning models and just epigenetics, what we're able to measure.

A (42:32)

I couldn't agree more. Okay, so, so to wrap this up, if someone needs to start, whether they are starting or where, whether they want to, you know, add this to their longevity journey, how can people go and learn more about true diagnostics or where can they find a provider? How can people start the journey within. Within that sphere, of course.

B (42:54)

If you're, you're interested in testing, head to truediagnostic.com it's just tru and then diagnostic is singular. And reach out to our support team. We'll connect with the provider. If you want to go through a provider, which I think is always a great, great solution and something I'd recommend to really help you integrate this into your lifestyle, it's just support S u p o r t@true.gnostic.com Cool.

A (43:16)

And people can also get the tests and have the test run the test themselves. Send it back to you?

B (43:22)

Yes, absolutely. You can do this all by yourself. And we'll give you actionable recommendations on the reporting as well.

A (43:28)

Awesome. Hannah, listen, this was fantastic. You are a treasure trove of knowledge. So I, I really appreciate it.

B (43:36)

Thanks, Amit. I appreciate your time.

A (43:38)

All right, guys, thank you very much.

B (43:54)

Sa.