Podcast Summary

Biohacking Beauty: The Anti-Aging Skincare Podcast

Episode: Joel Marshall: Microneedling, Exosomes & Why RF Isn’t Really Microneedling
Host: Amitai Eshel (Young Goose)
Guest: Joel Marshall (Founder & CEO, DP Derm)
Date: October 29, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the science and practice of microneedling for skin rejuvenation, the technology’s evolution, key misconceptions (especially around radio frequency ‘microneedling’), and future-forward enhancements using exosomes and NAD. With over two decades of experience, Joel Marshall shares unique insider perspectives, debunks common myths, and offers practical advice for both professionals and consumers interested in anti-aging and regenerative skincare.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Microneedling and How Does it Work?

• Joel Marshall traces microneedling’s origins from historical practices to modern tech, noting a transition from basic stamp/roller needles to advanced motorized pens.
  • “[Modern] microneedling actually was started in the 90s... using a tattoo needle... Over time, he actually saw great changes in the collagen structure.” (03:22)
• Microneedling induces controlled micro-injuries in the skin, triggering the wound healing cascade and collagen production.
  • “Collagen is the building block of our skin. Without collagen, everything just goes flat and droopy.” (05:49)
• Controlled injuries via microneedling are preferable to linear wounds (as from cuts) because the skin heals with minimal risk of scarring.
  • “We’re introducing injury in a way that the skin has the easiest time to recover from.” (07:40)

2. Microneedling vs. Lasers & Chemical Peels

• Comparison with other rejuvenation approaches:
  • Chemical peels strip the top layers of skin.
  • Lasers use selective wavelengths for different targets (blood, melanin, water); effective but riskier for darker skin types or those with melasma due to heat.
  • “Once you start using heat, you can create other complications... if you’re treating something like melasma, there’s a chance you can make more melasma with the heat.” (10:14)
• Microneedling achieves high collagen induction without heat, resulting in less downtime and fewer risks, even for darker skin types.

3. The Controversy: Why RF 'Microneedling' Is Not True Microneedling

• Strongly critical stance on RF microneedling:
  • “I think radio frequency microneedling and high frequency ultrasound... communicate in a way that the skin cannot understand... it is the most linear type of damage you could introduce to the skin.” (13:22)
  • Joel Marshall: “All it is, is using needles to bypass the epidermis to deliver the heat. It's a radio frequency machine. It's not a microneedling machine.” (14:57)
  • “The resulting collagen that it leaves is not great... it's why also plastic surgeons don't like to do plastic surgery after someone's had radio.” (15:29)
• Cautions RF-based approaches are misleadingly marketed and create long-term complications.
• Popular analogy: “It's basically cosmetic smoking for the patient.” (16:51)
• Both speakers advocate dropping the “microneedling” label from RF-based procedures.

4. Economic Pressures and Industry Practices

• Costly devices pressure practitioners to prioritize revenue over best patient outcomes.
  • “Instead of trying to promote an actual treatment that’s super beneficial for the client, they’ve got to pay for their machine.” (22:12)
• Marshall emphasizes that skewed priorities damage the industry and consumer trust.
  • “Our mission is to create skin health for everyone.”

5. Enhancing Results: Best Ingredients and Post-care

a) What Ingredients Pair Best With Microneedling?

• Dependent on treatment goals:
  • For pigmentation: tyrosinase inhibitors like kojic acid, licorice root extract, vitamin C.
    “As a company... we use high levels of kojic acid, licorice root, and other tyrosinase inhibitors.” (25:13)
• New research supports combining NAD boosters with licorice root for fibroblast and NAD level enhancement. (26:05)
• Exosomes (cellular messengers): Both the DP Derm and Young Goose teams leverage advanced Korean technology for superior results.

b) What Should Never Be Used After Microneedling?

• Avoid contaminant-prone products like conventional makeup and non-sterile brushes on compromised skin.
• Do not mix pH-incompatible products with exosome treatments, as this can decrease efficacy.
• Marshall strongly advises against anesthetic creams, citing both chemical exposure and barrier breakdown as counterproductive.
  • “The first thing you go and do is put on this horrible, horrible chemical... completely counterintuitive.” (30:43)
• Device design and technique (sharp, precise needles, gliding at correct angles) can circumvent the need for numbing creams.

c) At-home Devices vs. Professional Treatments

• Roller-style devices create lateral tearing and less controlled injuries; motorized pens allow for vertical entry and precise depth control.
  • “You’re getting lateral tearing, instead of direct... controlled injury.” (34:17)
• At-home pens are effective for maintaining results and enhancing professional treatments but do not replace in-clinic procedures.
  • “At-home microneedling and professional microneedling are two different treatments being administered by the same physical principle.” (45:54)

6. Microneedling and Product Absorption

• Microchannels notably increase product absorption but only if the products are safe for deep skin penetration.
  • “The biggest barrier to any product getting into the skin is the skin. If you can slightly break that barrier, any sort of product can get in.” (37:39)
• Only products formulated and intended for such use should be applied post-microneedling.

7. The Importance of Pre- and Post-care

• Properly preparing the skin in advance (“prejuvenation”) is nearly as important as aftercare.
  • “If you really want to do it right... you do a consult, you give them specific products which are going to set them up for when they actually come for the treatment.” (39:37)

8. Frequency & Depth of Treatments

• Frequency depends on indication:
  • Pigmentation (epidermal): Shallower treatments, every 2 weeks.
  • Scarring/collagen stimulation (dermal): Deeper treatments, every 6+ weeks, looking for pinpoint bleeding as endpoint.
    • “We never give ideal depths because every patient is different... always do every treatment according to that particular patient.” (43:27)

9. Synergy With Biohacking & Longevity Protocols

• Red/infrared light therapy: Effective when enough energy is delivered to skin; modern home masks can match older clinic devices if designed properly.
  • “If you have a face mask right on the skin, you don’t need the same power to get the same energy in.”
• Hyperbaric oxygen therapy: Marshall sees a trend toward holistic combinations, though isn’t an expert.
• Cryotherapy: Cautions cold immediately after may blunt beneficial inflammation, drawing parallels to fitness science research.
  • “With cryo as well, I wouldn’t do it straight after a [microneedling] treatment.” (50:53)

10. Who Should Avoid Microneedling?

• Absolute contraindications:
  • Pregnancy (due to liability, not necessarily risk),
  • Certain autoimmune conditions,
  • Active eczema or open wounds.
  • “If you’re like a normal human being and your skin heals and you’ve got any type of skin type, anyone can do it and get it done almost anywhere.” (54:04)

11. Common Mistakes & Myths

• Mislabeling stamping or circular techniques as equivalent to real microneedling—true method focuses on even, linear, lymphatic-friendly motion.
• RF microneedling being called microneedling.
• Another myth: rollers are as effective as pens.
  • “People think stamping is going to give you the same result. It’s not—the number of holes is nowhere near the same.” (54:31)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There’s really nothing more natural than creating that micro damage that the body and the skin is healing itself.”
  — Joel Marshall (12:34)

• “Radio frequency microneedling is just radio frequency delivered by needles... it’s not true microneedling.”
  — Joel Marshall (14:57)

• “It’s basically cosmetic smoking.”
  — Amitai Eshel paraphrasing Dr. Cameron Chestnut (16:51)

• “At-home microneedling and professional microneedling are two different treatments being administered by the same physical principle.”
  — Amitai Eshel (45:54)

• “The biggest barrier to any product getting into the skin is the skin.”
  — Joel Marshall (37:39)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:46 — What is microneedling? Origins & history
• 05:33 — Why is collagen important? How microneedling stimulates it
• 08:01 — Comparing microneedling w/ lasers, peels
• 13:22 — Controversy: Why RF isn’t microneedling
• 19:49 — Economics of device sales in the aesthetics industry
• 23:19 — What ingredients pair best with microneedling?
• 26:55 — The science and sourcing of exosomes
• 29:07 — What not to use after microneedling: post-care cautions
• 30:43 — The problem with anesthetic creams
• 33:23 — Advanced pen vs. at-home rollers: technique, safety, precision
• 37:12 — Does microneedling actually enhance product absorption?
• 39:37 — The case for “prejuvenation” (preparing the skin)
• 42:04 — How often should you do microneedling?
• 43:27 — Determining proper needle depth
• 47:14 — Red light therapy, hyperbarics & cryotherapy with microneedling
• 52:27 — Contraindications: who shouldn’t do microneedling
• 54:31 — Most common practitioner mistakes & persistent myths
• 55:32 — Where to learn more: DermapenWorld & DP Derm

Where to Learn More / Get Involved

• dermapenworld.com (Global—outside the US)
• dpderm.com (For US professionals & offerings)

Closing Thought

This episode arms listeners with the scientific know-how and practical insights to make informed decisions about microneedling and skincare rejuvenation, highlighting the importance of evidence over hype, the unique benefits of true microneedling, and critical nuances in pairing treatments, products, and devices for optimal, healthy aging.

End of Summary