Ryan Ruko (3:43)

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Sue Bird (4:09)

All right, Ryan, so before we talk about what we brought you here for, which is like basketball semis, finals preview, Nafisa Collier had a press conference yesterday. So today's Wednesday. Recording this on Wednesday. She had her press conference for her exit interview yesterday. And I just wanted to first talk a little bit about how we got here. I would say in large part due to Minnesota's Game 3 against Phoenix, the foul at the end which caused an injury, Cheryl's reaction. But of course Nafisa talks like broadly, she talks more about other issues. From your vantage point, you were literally courtside for basically everything. Like, how did we get to this point?

Ryan Ruko (4:55)

Yeah, I think that we've been building to this point for a while now, you know, and by the way, Nafisa had a press conference. I totally missed that. I'm sorry.

Sue Bird (5:06)

You've been busy. What have you been doing?

Ryan Ruko (5:10)

I. I know. I mean, I think that what we saw is kind of, you know, there's been tension building as you know, like all season And I think it goes beyond that, but certainly all season. And I think the frustrations got to the boiling point. And you know, and I don't. I think if just what happened at the end of game three happened in a vacuum, I don't think that, that, you know, would necessarily cause the reaction that you're seeing in the aftermath of this. You know, I don't think. I don't think Nafisa Collier's comments are a direct reaction to, you know, what happened at the end of game three, you know, a non call on the foul, which, you know, may or may not have been the right call technically by how the rules are currently stated. Right. But I think it's. It's just at this point, you've reached a boiling point for so many of the players in this league. Feeling a couple of things, you know, I think one is that the way the game is currently, you know, adjudicated on the floor is not representative of. Is not the best way to highlight the skill and the talent of these players. And then I think they feel like those concerns have kind of been dismissed, you know, and we haven't had, or they haven't had their concerns really, I think taken as seriously as they want to. And so I think it's hit this boiling point and that's just kind of dealing with the officiating part of it and how we've gotten here in the physicality on the floor and the lack of freedom of movement that's not dealing with everything else that Nafisa brought to the table as well. And I kind of think a couple things, right? One is when someone like Nafisa Collier, who is, I think, a really intelligent, thoughtful leader, has thoughts like this, I think it's important to listen to them and to understand that there, there are definitely reason she's coming to the microphone saying these things. And it's important to evaluate why, you know, and then I think the other thing I think about is unfortunately, right or wrong throughout the history of this league, and you know this way better than me, sue, when women in this league have wanted to try and make something happen, you know, the only way they've kind of been able to get it done is if they do go publicly with their complaints. Right? And so, you know, I'm sure that there's a lot of things that people would like to get done behind the scenes, but that to this point has been ineffective. And so now they have to try.

Sue Bird (7:46)

You bring up a great point. Well, first of all, the point you bring up about how what happened in Game 3 isn't why FISA's talking about these things. Is it maybe like a tiny catalyst? Yes, it kind of like brings it to the surface, but no. So much has been happening in our league over the last year, over the course of its history, to have a moment like that. It wasn't just because of what happened in game three. And the second point you bring up, which is absolutely true, and I'll start by saying, because I'm in the ownership, everybody who listens to this already knows this story. Because I'm in ownership, I'm obviously in a little bit of a unique spot. And then I can't comment too much, but what I can talk about is history. And history has shown that when players use their voice, change happens. And it's sad to me that it still has to be that order of events, but it also just kind of gives everybody an idea, I think, for me, in my walk of life, what's always so interesting, and I'm curious if this happens to you, just how much the public gets it wrong from time to time. They just really don't know, like, how our league works. I think for a long time, they just mapped on what they knew about men's sports or specifically the NBA, and just assumed it was the same for us. So, you know, at times, players have had to use their voice to really inform, really educate the public. Is that something that you come across?

Ryan Ruko (9:07)

Yeah, I think it's. I think it's definitely unique to the WNBA compared to other sports. And I don't know. You know, there's probably multiple reasons for that, but, um. But I definitely do think it's unique. And that's why, you know, I. Look, social media definitely makes it easy for people to, you know, immediately fire off complaints or issues they have. Right. And that's not unique to the wnba. We've seen that from players in every sport. You know, when they have an issue with something going on at the league level, they will, you know, voice their frustrations, you know, via social media. Right. But when it's something like a prepared statement or more organized thought or, you know, I do think that feels a little bit more unique to the W. And I think that is because there's a history of, like, hey, we've tried to tell you things, you're not doing anything about it. Now I have to go this route in order for it to kind of, you know, become a big enough deal that you feel like it does have to be dealt with, you know, and just like, to kind of, you know, pin back to the officiating thing. You know, I thought for me, the most crystallizing thing I experienced this season when it comes to the way the game is officiated came from Paige Beckers. And she said to us before a game in Indiana, she said, you know, I've had to learn how to defend while fouling again. And she said because in college there was such a focus for me to defend while not fouling. And here I've realized, oh, like, no, I have to learn how to, how to like, you know what? I can get away with this. How to defend while fouling. And my thing is if someone like, you know, Paige Becker doesn't have an agenda when she sits down and tells us that, you know, she's genuinely reacting to the way the game is called. You know, you famously use the line, sue, that I played in the 90s NBA, right, like talking about the physicality that you've dealt with in the league. So like, I'm not even, I'm not even blaming the officials on the floor who I think, you know, we all could stand to show a little more empathy for. Like, the job they have is really hard. They're under, you know, an enormous amount of scrutiny now. Kind of feels like all the attention and the negativity has cascaded down on them. I'm more kind of focused on like, we have coaches from almost every organization now. We have like players from almost every organization saying like, hey, this is happening in our, in our gameplay. Like I see it with my eyes calling the games. And so, yeah, maybe you can defend by the letter of the law certain things are being called certain ways or not called certain ways based on how the game is currently, you know, outlined with the rules. But I think there probably should be some level of public acknowledgment, you know, from the league level, whether it's, whether it's from as high as the commissioner's office or whether it's from, you know, our, you know, our officiating body or whether it's, you know, from other places, when you talk about competition, committees, whatever, I think it probably would go a long way to help the conversation to just have some sort of public acknowledgment of. Look, we've heard so many of the biggest voices in our game express their feelings this year about the way the game play is unfolding. And you know, we are going to give it a really thorough review and make sure we're working in conjunction with our partners to try and find a best path Forward. And I. And I. And I. I think for me, even if that's happening behind the scenes, I think a public statement like that might go a long way or might have gone a long way to kind of mollify some of the concerns, to at least feel like people are being heard rather than everybody's just always on the defensive.

Sue Bird (12:57)

Yeah. So you literally answered my next question. As you were talking, I was like, well, what would you do, Ryan? What would you like to see happen? But I wanna circle back on the page conversation you had. Cause something I do wanna highlight in that based experience is I've played now in the WNBA or I played in the WNBA for so long, every now and then USA Basketball would do a college tour. Our most recent college tour was right before the pandemic. So it was like 2000, like fall 2019 into the winter of 2020. And everybody remembers this college tour because we lost to Oregon. So we'll just push that to the side for a second. But when we have to play in those college tours, we have to use, generally it's agreed upon that we're gonna use the college refs and the college rules. Now, some of the refs are the same, so some of them are. You know, we could name the names, right? Like some of the refs in the WNBA are the same in college, vice versa. But learning how to play with the college rules is very difficult. Cause now we're being told we have to have less contact, we can't hand check. So it really is. I just want to emphasize again, like, this is. I agree with you also on the refs and having empathy and understanding. Like, I don't think it's easy. I really do see that as well. But I believe that players, we are going to play in a way, in whichever way the refs allow. And I think my experience from playing WNBA and USA Basketball and then going to playing college roles after not being in college for like, you know, a hundred years, that just shows you that referees do have impact, because they clearly call it in college in a different way. And that's their mandate. And they get that mandate, you know, from the powers that be. So that's like, what is most interesting to me that it can be changed. It really can. I'm not saying it happens overnight. This might be a very difficult question to answer. But if there was something that the referees right now in the Finals could implement, is there anything like just a certain play or a certain thing that's happening that if you thought, oh, if they clean that up it could change everything.

Ryan Ruko (15:04)

I mean, I think there's like, there's holding and grabbing off the ball with two hands that I think it, you know, and this is something that Becky Hammond has expressed to us as well and that I think 100% could be addressed, you know, right away when it comes to the officiating is, you know, just if you just watch the off ball movement. And this is an area where I think, you know, Caitlin in so many ways has been a magnifying glass for different things that go on in this league. Right. And in this sport. And I think a wonderful way. And I think we've seen a lot of fans be introduced to the league and they're watching and they're like, wait, what? You can get away with what? Like, and, and I think, you know, now, you know, you have kind of a broader understanding of, of what's gone on when it comes to, you know, just off ball contact. So if I was just going to take one thing right away, to me, there's a lot of like two hands, like on people just really stopping their movement, you know, off the ball that I don't think is conducive to, you know, showcasing the skill and the talent. So that would be, that would be my first thing. And then, you know, I also think there probably has to be a conversation about, you know, how do you invest in and develop the, you know, best officials in the world? How do you make sure you know your rules beyond just that movement? Although I think like that emphasis on freedom of movement would do a lot. How do you make sure that everything is kind of showcasing the best skill? Because to your point about the college game, you adapt, right? You have those rules, you. That's going to make you play a certain way, right? So if in game, you know, one through five, every time, you know, Kelsey Mitchell's running off a screen or Jackie Young is, or, you know, Kelsey Plum or name your player, they're getting touched and whistle, you know. Well, probably, yeah, I can't do this anymore. You know, like, I do think that, like there has to be or there, in my opinion there should be some, you know, just some acknowledgement of like, okay, you know, maybe, maybe this has been allowed in a way that isn't going to be, you know, best for the sport moving forward.

Sue Bird (17:26)

Right, Yeah. I mean, so that's kind of where I get caught up. Not confused, but just like caught up a little bit. Because I just mentioned some of the refs from college, which if we're using that as maybe a less Physical, better called game. Some of the refs are the same. So that to me speaks to like, the mandates, the rules, what's allowed. So the talent level of the ref, to me is there. They can ref two different ways. But I also do agree with you that the pipeline of refs. Listen, as a WNBA player, I can tell you the only thing we're ever not told, like, explicitly, but the things we see with our own eyes is we'll have some WNBA refs for a couple years and all of a sudden we see them in the NBA and we're like, oh, that's interesting. The best ones in our league usually get plucked. So, you know, it's, it's, it's navigating that in terms of the talent pool as well, which is a real thing.

Ryan Ruko (18:21)

Right. And that's kind of a, that's a women's sports thing across the board. Right.

Sue Bird (18:25)

Trainers, PR people, marketing. Name it.

Ryan Ruko (18:28)

Right.

Sue Bird (18:28)

Name it.

Ryan Ruko (18:29)

We talk about all the time, see it in broadcasting. Yeah, right. Like, where it's, it's like, oh, you know, this person, you know, this person's been great in this space, whatever. Like, oh, they're on to the, you know, they're onto the men. Why? Well, you know, they're going to make more money, you know, and, and so I do think that's a, that's a real thing for, you know, that has to be considered as well. Like, what's the ways to continue to incentivize the best, to be developed for this level and to be kept at this level. You know, and that doesn't mean, that doesn't mean there are easy solutions to all this. And I also want to acknowledge it's like, way easier to bring up problems than it is solutions when it comes to any of this stuff.

Sue Bird (19:08)

Yeah.

Ryan Ruko (19:09)

Like, and, and so I totally get that. But. But I do think, you know, that's another part of what has to be considered. Like what. What can be done to continue to invest in the best talent possible to have on the floor and then giving them the tools to implement maybe a style that's going to be more conducive to, you know, a little bit more movement, a little bit more freedom.

Sue Bird (19:32)

Yeah. You know, something to add to just the whole conversation. Just put it in the pot. But players at the WNBA level, they're good, they're skilled, they're also really smart. So I do want to put that in there. Megan and I talked about this on a touch more. Like, I could name. There are certain players I could name names. Listen, Diana, Tarazi is one of them. And it's a compliment. She would ruin practice because if you don't have a referee with the way she plays, think about her driving, lowering her shoulder just a little, making that contact, Is that a block? Is that a charge? Did she have to write like, there's no way to know. And when you practice with players that play these, this style, you need a referee because they're that difficult, they manipulate the situation. Again, a compliment in such a way that it does make it hard. So I do want to throw that in there. But I think you bring up a good point about solutions. Like, yeah, we can all throw the problem out there over and over again.

Ryan Ruko (20:26)

Yes.

Sue Bird (20:26)

I don't know if I've ever told you my solution. Well, first of all, I think in this next finals, one thing I would love to see is not letting players, and we've talked about this, not letting defenses just like blow up, pick and rolls, meaning run right through them. I hate that. I think that's like disingenuous, to be honest. I get why it works, but I don't love it. No, my fix is actually putting it back on the players and giving us only five personal fouls. I don't know why we have six. You're going to be a lot, a lot more careful if you pick up your first foul and then your second in the first half. It just changes the whole trajectory of your game.

Ryan Ruko (21:05)

I think it's a great point. Like, and of course, like the initial worry is like, wait, what they're called, you know, the fouls are you're so concerned about now you want to foul out more players.

Sue Bird (21:13)

I mean, for that.

Ryan Ruko (21:14)

Yeah, go for it. Yeah.

Sue Bird (21:16)

We play with five fouls in college, overseas, USA basketball. It's a 40 minute game. The only reason why we have six is because the NBA does. And that's a 48 minute game. They get eight more minutes. We have eight less minutes and one extra foul. It never made sense to me.

Ryan Ruko (21:31)

Yeah, honestly, I think it's a, I think it's a great consideration. And, and, and what you're saying about it makes a lot of sense to me because you're right. Like if you, if you only have five to work with, you pick up one, you're going to naturally change everything.

Sue Bird (21:45)

And yeah, my argument is always like, you don't see people falling out left and right on these other levels where they have five fouls. But I've said this in competition committee meetings that I've been in where it's like GM's coaches, all the, like, you know, stakeholders, and everybody's first, Their gut. They're. They're like, gut reaction, knee jerk reaction. Well, what if. What if our stars fell out? People come to watch the stars and I'm like, first of all, they won't. I promise you. Second of all, let's say there's 12 people, you know on a roster. You're giving the other team 12 more times to foul your best player. And that's the part I'm like, what are we talking about? We're not talking about your best player on defense and how they play defense. We're talking about them on offense and letting them be great on offense.

Ryan Ruko (22:30)

That's such a great point.

Sue Bird (22:30)

I digress.

Ryan Ruko (22:31)

That's such a great. But that's such a great point because you're right. Having more fouls allows their offensive talent to be stopped that many more times.

Sue Bird (22:37)

Yeah, I can't wait till this happens and it's called the Sue Bird rule. I've been waiting my whole life for this.

Ryan Ruko (22:42)

I really hope that it is. You know, I mean, and I think that, like, with all of this, like, I think there's a spirit that you can go about this conversation, like, even us right now, right? Like, you know, we're not trashing the officials as we're having this conversation. We're saying, like, hey, we see it's hard. Yeah, like, we see it's hard. And enough people have brought up that this is an issue. So, like, maybe we can just start being open about solutions rather than defensive, you know, And I think it would put the officials in a better spot as well. And so I hope it feels like there's been kind of like, you know, a tipping point, a breaking point this year. And I don't think you can confine the conversation to. Well, people are just upset that they lost because we've heard it from all over. We've heard it from coaches after wins, We've heard it from coaches after losses. We've had it from. Heard it from players after wins, players after losses. It's not confined to winning and losing. It's not like sore loser moments. That's not what's bringing about this conversation.

Sue Bird (23:39)

Yeah, I mean, listen, we've already touched on so many different ways in which narratives, conversations, defensiveness, like, all the things kind of come up. And that really speaks to social media how that is, you know, weaponized for many those that, again, are disingenuous. Do you think the league in general, do you think, like, too much of the conversation around the league. I don't mean specific to a player, to a coach, to a team. I don't even mean specific to fans, media. I'm talking everybody is too much of the conversation happening online.

Ryan Ruko (24:13)

I think so. And obviously this is a societal problem beyond just the wnba, but it does feel like it is a particular issue in women's basketball in maybe an outsized way compared to other sports. And I was thinking of this analogy earlier. Bear with me because it's my first time breaking it out. It may not work. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. A bird's eye view exclusive for analogies on. But like, people always be like, oh my gosh, these people are going nuts. You see how, like, do you see the like, oh, social media is going crazy. You see how, like, how, how, how like how angry people are how. And it's like, would you ever look at people in a bouncy castle and be like, oh my gosh, they're bouncing. Like, do you see the way they're bouncing? Like, oh, oh my gosh, no, you wouldn't. You know why? Because it's a bouncy castle and it's. The whole point of it is it's made to create a situation where people bounce. Okay, well, that is what social media is literally.

Sue Bird (25:18)

Did you just come from like a 5 year old's birthday party? Where did this bounce?

Ryan Ruko (25:21)

I was actually thinking of Evie's birthday party or four year old birthday party, which was a few weeks ago. What they thinking of this? Yeah, I really was. But like, if you think about it, there has been endless amounts of brain science research poured in to these apps which control our narratives and our emotions and our days. Right. And what is, what have they figured out? And you know, someone who I love listening to, Scott Galloway, talks about this all the time, they figured out that the thing that, you know, sells better than anything is rage. Right. So the platform you are, you're on is literally formatted to induce rage. It upregulates in your feed things that are going to create conflict and, you know, stir emotions up in you. And, and so if you're using that as like your kind of truth window into all narratives. Like, I think that you're forgetting there's, there's a massive glaze on it that is trying to create a level of, of controversy, you know, and so where I think social media has been incredibly useful for women's basketball is it has become kind of like a billboard to take people to the games in a way that, you know, maybe is unique and I think has helped grow the audience quite significantly because there is such a. A fervent online presence. And where I think it's hurt a little bit is it's allowed the discourse to become, you know, super toxic at times. And then for people to think like, this is, these are the only real conversations happening right now, when really it's like, well, no, these are kind of like neurologically engineered conversations that you just happen to be in the middle of.

Sue Bird (27:06)

Yeah.

Ryan Ruko (27:06)

You know, and that's where I also think, like, it's on all of us, you know, whether, you know, whether we're in the media, whether we cover the sport, whether we play the sport, whatever, or we're just consumers like these companies. And this is like a broader conversation a little bit. And I know, you know, I feel this way about these things, but, like, these companies, they are not going to do this for us. Right. Like, unless we have some unbelievably altruistic multi billionaire who is able to buy these platforms and say, hey, I'm going to make things right, it's really on us. We have to be our own gatekeepers when it comes to technological intelligence and media awareness. And, like, we all have to just, like, have media literacy is really the term. We have to have some level of media literacy when we go into all of this and use that to help inform our conversations of what's real and what's not, what should be real and what's not.

Sue Bird (28:07)

Yeah. Sounds like you might run for office, like local office, maybe. Maybe this could be. We could be doing a whole other podcast. But I totally agree sometimes, and this is a very nonpartisan comment, sometimes the landscape of the WNBA reminds me of the political landscape we're in. And I'm just like, that to me, is a red flag. If I feel the rage, if I feel this, I'm like, put your phone down. And I feel like that's always a good selling point. Support for Bird's Eye View comes from the all electric Toyota bz. You know, you've been thinking about going electric. You've searched the Internet, admired friends EVs, but you've been hesitant to take the plunge. The all electric Toyota BZ might just be the electric vehicle you've been waiting for. The Toyota BZ is a battery electric vehicle designed to do more. The BZ's advanced all electric powertrain features an EPA estimated driving range rating up to 314 miles. All wheel drive models have 338 horsepower and near immediate torque. You can feel and you can charge the way you want to. BZ is compatible with most public chargers, but the features don't stop there. Regenerative Braking Paddle shifters let you dial in the level of regenerative braking to suit your personal Preference. Wireless Apple CarPlay, Android Auto and SiriusXM seamlessly connect you to all your devices, and an available Panoramic View Moonroof lets you take in the scenery wherever you roam. Did I mention its striking design and sleek, powerful lines go from skeptic to electric in the all electric Toyota BZ the all electric BZ1 drive can change your mind. Learn more@toyota.com BZ Toyota let's go places. Support for this show comes from DraftKings. The WNBA playoffs are here and the heat is on. Every game, every play and every moment counts. Bet on your favorite teams and stars with DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the WNBA. And for a limited time, all new DraftKings customers bet $5 and get $200 in bonus bets instantly. Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app and use code BIRD. That's code BIRD for new customers to get $200 in bonus bets instantly. When you bet just five bucks in partnership with DraftKings, the crown is yours.

Ryan Ruko (30:26)

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Sue Bird (31:13)

A meme or milestone.

Ryan Ruko (31:15)

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Sue Bird (31:20)

Learn more@WhatsApp.com all right, we have a lot of basketball to get into.

Ryan Ruko (31:24)

Yeah, sure.

Sue Bird (31:26)

So let's get into it. Ryan, before we get to like, the playoffs, the semis, the finals, I want to do a little background on you.

Ryan Ruko (31:35)

Okay.

Sue Bird (31:35)

I want to do a little profile here. You started calling WNBA games in 2013. There has been a ton of growth. A ton of growth. What's one area in your time that sticks out to you the most? Like one area of Growth that sticks.

Ryan Ruko (31:51)

Out the most fans in the seats. Like I can remember, you know, the first games I was doing, you know, we were just like, hoping you'd have a few thousand people. You know, there were certain arenas where it was definitely better. But we. When I was, you know, doing. When I was first starting out in 2013, we weren't really talking about upper bowl anywhere. You were just hoping that you had the lower bowl sell, you know, sold out, or that you at least had where the cameras were going to be mostly covering, like, fans there. And I can even remember there were times where we would try and, like, see, could we, you know, if there was only going to be, you know, however many couple thousand fans, could we concentrate them more in the arena in order to, like, have it look better on camera? You know, when I think about going to some of the early, like, L. A Sparks games, like, you know, just like, totally barren and what used to be Staples and, you know, and even a place like Minnesota, which has been very much ahead of the curve, you know, when we were going to Target center, then, you know, we weren't really talking about upper bowl. You know, we were. It was. It was electric and it was just lower bowl, you know. And so now, like, I never walk into a game wondering what kind of crowd are we going to get? You know, like, I, you know, Vegas sells out every game, obviously, Golden State sold at every game. This year. The atmosphere of Barclays is unbelievable. Gainbridge is unbelievable. Target center is unbelievable. You know, I'm sure I'm forget Phoenix is unbelievable. Seattle is unbelievable. You know, I mean, like, it's. It's hard to find. You know, I'd never done games in Atlanta's new place. Obviously that's, you know, they only have a few thousand people, whatever. But that atmosphere was awesome. Doing games there as well, you know, so. And the places I'm, you know, I'm forgetting, like, there's nowhere that I. That we do games anymore. And I say, like, so, like, that is massive growth to me because I just kind of assume when we go to a playoff game, it's going to be sold out. And if it's not, it's very close to being.

Sue Bird (33:57)

Yeah. When I think of kind of when you started 2013, like I said, through the next couple years, but even before that, like, I agree there were definitely some places that were not great. And every time we played there, I was like, oh, man, we're going to have to drum up our own excitement here. But always in the playoffs, they would always turn out in the playoffs. And that was really the first indicator for me that the WNBA was just lacking. I always called it a cool factor. Lacking like stakes, lacking just like, oh, I want to go to this because again, because it's cool to be at and the playoffs are cool, people want to be a part of a playoff run. And that's why I was like, oh, we just have to tap into it. But to your point, the fan bases have really, it's really, it's been incredible to watch. What about like an on court evolution? Like, what have you seen there?

Ryan Ruko (34:48)

Sometimes I think like the way the like talent people always talk about, like, oh man, the talent has gotten so much better. And I actually think that sometimes that does a disservice to the talent that we've had previously. Because just for example, if you look at. And that's not to say that isn't happening on like a 1 through 12 on a roster standpoint moving forward. Right. And that's not going to continue to happen that way because it should, it always should. If the sport's going in the right direction, that is what happens. But if you look at like the top tier teams, like if I was to just like go to the 2016 WNBA Finals and you were to look at LA and Minnesota's rosters, like you're talking about just like these ridiculous. Yeah, exactly. Loaded, you know, Minnesota with, with, with Whalen and Augustus and Moore and Brunson and fouls. Like you literally have a starting lineup of hall of Famers and you know, in LA with, with Candace and Neca and, and Chelsea and, and, and Elena Beard, who's an unbelievable defender on that team. And I'm definitely Christy Tolliver. Yeah, like, I mean, you know, so like, I do think that like we've had really great top tier talent, especially on the top teams, you know, you know, you experience like forever. I think the biggest thing on court is like the WNBA was a little bit later to the kind of like pace and space, right? Or just the, like the four out or the five out. And so I think like that's where I've seen the biggest differences and because I think the league was like maybe a little bit further behind in those trends. It's why if you do it well, even if you don't have the best personnel for it yet you still see real gains, I think in wins and losses. Like in Atlanta, for example, like, I don't think that's, you know, that team isn't the perfect personnel for Carl Mesco's system. But because they ran it so well, like, and the WNBA is still like, you know, whatever, you know, some years behind the curve and like adapting to that, like they were the 3 seed this year, you know. So I think like recently that's it, like we've started to like really go towards the, you know, paint and threes, you know, more so than we had over the last couple years.

Sue Bird (37:05)

Can I tell you one of my favorite things to do when I'm watching WNBA games? Every now and then in my own little head, I freeze frame it and I count the players on the court, which ones I've played against. And what's interesting, because I've had a lot of people talk to me about the talent level increasing and I really agree with everything you're saying in that of course it's increased. It's evolution, it's only going to get better and better. But when people cross the line to then put down previous generations, I get a little frustrated for obvious reasons. I think we're the only sport where that even happens. Usually you applaud previous generations. I digress. So every now and then I'll be like, okay, who did I play against? And nine times out of 10, it's like seven, eight, nine, sometimes 10 players in the playoffs even. There's like, I've played against pretty much everybody who's on the, everyone who was on the court yesterday pretty much played against all of them. And that was me in my 40s. I played a long time. That was me in my 40s and I could hang right, like I was a good point guard. And then I think like, oh, if I was even just like 35, what would I have been? Even 20? Forget 25. And that just signals to me that the previous generations, they would have been just as good now. Right? And that really just comes back to not putting them down the way I feel like some people do. So it's just a fun little game I play with myself.

Ryan Ruko (38:24)

I like it. It's looking at things as like a zero sum game versus not. And so, hey, in order for me to give this generation their proper flowers, I need to put down the other. No you don't. It's not a zero sum.

Sue Bird (38:35)

I think we're the only sport where that's happen happened. I, I, I cannot name another sport.

Ryan Ruko (38:40)

I think it happens in the NBA sometimes too. I don't know people, but just where people will like, you know, they might like, kind of, you know, denigrate the athleticism or, you know, level.

Sue Bird (38:52)

Fine. By the way, that's Fine. I shouldn't say that's fine. I'm not saying it's great, but I'm talking about straight up trashing, like, oh, how good could been? And you're just like, what?

Ryan Ruko (39:04)

Yeah, right, exactly. No, no, no, I agree with that. I agree with that. Like, I think there's definitely, like, for some reason there's a compulsion to, in order to like properly prop up the current generation to be like, oh, yeah, by the way, everything before was trash. And it's like, no, like it wasn't. But this is also awesome. I think this real quick last thing on that, like, if the 2016, if Minnesota LA played right now in the finals, like, you know how much like exponentially bigger the ratings would be for that finals now than it was then, you know, and the basketball would be exactly the same, but the ratings would be just off the charts.

Sue Bird (39:49)

Yeah, but like, just to like bring this home, I agree with you. That style, the style of play is evolving. It is more exciting to watch now. I think I can honestly say that compared to 10 years ago, I think that's a big help. And I do think again, players are evolving. They are. They're more skilled. That's more of a focus in their training. Like, we never worked on skill work, but that's just the evolution of the game. And that's what makes sports exciting. Right? Like, what's going to be the next thing? If you look at the NBA, the great examples are what Steph Curry brought. Now everybody's trying to be like that. What James Harden brought, people are trying to be like that. So that's slowly happening in the WNBA as well. And that's what makes it exciting. Okay, when you think about all the playoffs you've covered, what are some of your favorite. You could take this anywhere. Favorite games, moments, plays. What do you think about when you think about your playoff coverage?

Ryan Ruko (40:39)

I think about. Well, first of all, I think about how cool it is to crown a champion. And I remember when I was first starting out before, I really fully appreciated how awesome the WNBA is. When I was just about to start the gig. One of my old bosses at the S Network, Woody Fryman, who's a great man, he said to me, hey, never underrate how valuable it is to call a champion. And it really is. Just to get to, to see a team through to the end, to get to punctuate those moments, to get to be a part of the memories for the fan bases or for the highlight videos or whatever is amazing. And getting to do it for a while now you get to accumulate a lot of awesome moments. I think if the first game I think of honestly is your game against Phoenix in 2018 in the game five of the semifinals. Because obviously you have this ridiculous fourth quarter and the crowd is just going nuts in Seattle and there was so much history on the line there in that game because it's, you know, Diana had up to that point had never lost a winner take all game. I forget if she was like 13 and oh, at that time or something. Yeah, something crazy. There was like legendary players on both ends of the floor. Right. Like, Stewie hadn't won a championship yet. Right. You're. You're kind of going for your. Your second act of titles, if you will. You have bg, you know, you have Bonner, you have Diana, you know, on. On your team. You guys have Jewel as well. You had like, all these great role players. The basketball was incredible. No one had ever forced a game. Five being down two zero, Phoenix does that. You kind of knew whoever was going to get.

Sue Bird (42:19)

I'm like, getting stressed as you're like, detailing this.

Ryan Ruko (42:23)

It's funny too, because you forget my nose. It was your nose in game four, otherwise it might have been different. Yep. And because you guys are up 10 when you break it, I don't have to remind you. And but like that game five in the crowd in Seattle was just amazing. And you knew, like, whoever won that game was going to win against Washington in the finals that year. So. Yeah, that game is, is. Is the first that that comes to mind also, you know, not to, not to, you know, blow too much smoke. But when you, when you call like a legend, having those moments has a different feel. You know, like when you just like, for me, another one I think about is like Maya Moore's game winner at the buzzer in game three of the 2015 finals that I called. Like, I always remember I was sick at the time and yeah, flu game for me. Yeah. And I had like, my ears had clogged on the plane because I was congested and stuff. So, you know, obviously, like, hearing is a big part of broadcasting because of, you know, the sounds in your ears. And I just remember being like, oh, gosh, this is going to like, mess up my calls today or whatever. And I remember feeling like, so grateful that I was able to still, like, have what I felt like was a good call. And like, getting to call that moment, that was awesome. To me, those two definitely come to mind. I think. Sabrina's game winner. Actually, there's two moments from last year's finals that come to mind. They're definitely in my, like, top five or six. Sabrina's game winner in game three, which is just a ridiculous shot. And every game of those finals was unbelievable on the history for New York. And then Courtney's four point play in game one. Yeah, yeah. Because, like, that was a stunning comeback. Like, it was so late in the fourth quarter that they were down by 16 or whatever it was. And, you know, everybody just kind of thought, like, oh, this is going to be a fait accompli for New York. They're the home team. They're, you know, they're meant. They're. They're meant to win this title. Right. Like they never have before. They conquered the aces. That was kind of the roadblock for them. And then Minnesota comes in with this historic comeback, and Courtney punctuates it with. Oh, gosh, so good. So, yeah, those are some that come to mind right off the bat.

Sue Bird (44:28)

Well, take us through real fast. Just the. You bet. Where did it come from? How did you come up with it? Maybe one of your favorite you bet calls, but where did it come from? Because you've really narrated some very special moments, and now you're synonymous. You are. You bet.

Ryan Ruko (44:47)

Thank you, Sue. Yeah. It's why I plan to release merchandise in the not too distant future. Another.

Sue Bird (44:52)

Another Bird's Eye view exclusive.

Ryan Ruko (44:55)

Exactly. Exactly. No, I think. I think that I actually. I don't remember exactly how it started other than like, what I realized was, like, on tv, there's a credit, there's a creativity you're afforded that you're not necessarily on radio as far as just like the audience is seeing what's happening. Right. So I don't have to necessarily say, like, you know, bird, left wing three is good. You know, like I could just say, you know, bird and then punctuated with whatever. Right. Like in Mike Breen's case, bang. You know, like on radio. Like, he could do that now, but in the beginning, it might be a little bit like, bang, what happens, you know, like. So, like. But on tv, you can punctuate a little bit more creatively, I would say. And so I had these moments where I realized I wanted to try and kind of create anticipation and then punctuate it. And. And Joe Buck had taught me when I was 21 about, on TV, creating anticipation for a moment. And he had taught me, using an example, baseball, where he was like, on radio, you might have to say, like, ground ball in the hole, backhanded by Jeter. Jump, throw across in time. Right. Whereas on tv you could maybe say, you know, in the hole, Jeter has a strong arm. Reyes can really run. Got him. You know, and, like, there's just like a level of kind of anticipation you're able to create. And so I was like, okay, what can I do with that in basketball, where I'm kind of like, creating anticipation and then punctuating it with, like, some kind of exclamation. And so you bet was kind of like an answer to a question for me, like, is she going to hit again? You bet. You know, like, you know, can she make six of them? You bet. And so it kind of started like that for me, where it was like kind of me trying to create a question in a run up to a three or a big shot. And then the you bet was like, the answer to, like, oh, yeah, she can, you know, or, oh, yeah, he can. And. And then so I started using it. Like, I liked it, but I was just like, I didn't really have a feel for, like, how often I use it or do I use it sparingly? I was just like, oh, this is gonna be my thing. I'll use it, like, you know, 8 to 10 to 12 times a game, whatever. And then Tim Corrigan, who's one of our main bosses at espn, said to me, I'll never forget where I was. I was outside my smoothie spot near 85th and 2nd where I used to live. And he was like, hey. I was on the phone with him, and he was like, you know, you bet is really good. And I was like, thanks, man. And he was like, but you should be more selective in where you use it. He was like, doesn't have to be only, like, game winners, but it should be, like, to punctuate runs or if one player is, like, on fire or something like that or kind of feeling for the game. And so you're not using it, you know, just haphazardly, like, have it have meaning every time. And so that from that moment forward, I was more selective and thoughtful, you know, So I might. In Caitlin's game back at Iowa this year, I used it on her first attempt from three because it felt appropriate, you know. Then I used it also on her 37 footer because it felt appropriate later in the game, Right? But I think, like, in game five, I think I used it for, like, a Jewel three that was big, maybe like a Jackie that was kind of like in the middle of a run, and then a Chelsea Gray three in overtime, you know, so it's just kind.

Sue Bird (48:14)

Of feeling it out.

Ryan Ruko (48:16)

As you can tell, I think a lot about this.

Sue Bird (48:18)

Honestly, I hate to say this. I'm sure this is, like, not going to be a popular opinion sometimes when you. I totally. I can. As you're talking about building the anticipation. That is exactly how it feels as a viewer listening to you commentate a game. Sometimes I really like it when you build and then they miss and you're.

Ryan Ruko (48:35)

Like, no, you know what? My cruise. That's their favorite thing. Their favorite thing is my name. Yeah.

Sue Bird (48:45)

I don't know what you say it.

Ryan Ruko (48:47)

Doris tells me. She's like, you know, when you first used to do that, I'd be like, oh, that's kind of, like, rude. And then she's like, now I love it.

Sue Bird (48:54)

It's really the only way. I think it's something about the tone, how you kind of ease into it, come out of it, that it lands softly. The note lands softly. So it's kind of the only way to do it. Yeah. Loki.

Ryan Ruko (49:08)

I love that. Thank you, Sue. I honestly do, too. That was Van Gundy's favorite call, too. He actually said to me kind of similarly something like what you just said, where he's like, I know people like, you bet my favorite call of yours is the. No. It's so funny.

Sue Bird (49:22)

Oh, my God.

Ryan Ruko (49:23)

Every once in a while, too, you'll hear me do it. If I like. On, like, what I think is sometimes I just do it on a missed shot after building up the anticipation. But sometimes if I think, like, it's just like, a dumb shot, like, sometimes I'll try and add, like, a little bit more of a distasteful. No, no. Yeah. Like, really, really that long, too? With 21 on the shot clock. Really? That's funny. Yeah.

Sue Bird (49:45)

Okay, before we get to the actual basketball, very quickly, the ratings in 2024 started a trend that has since grown. Can't be denied. We both agree. WNBA fire was burning. Caitlin pours lighter fluid all over it again. This is continuing in 2025. What are some ratings factoids that you can share with us here and that people can know?

Ryan Ruko (50:11)

I actually, if it's all right, I wrote a few down.

Sue Bird (50:13)

Yeah.

Ryan Ruko (50:14)

Because I thought. I thought it was good for people to know. And the way you just described that is right. Like, and this is again, where people kind of would take them as, like, a zero sum game. And, like, people would either not give Caitlin the credit she absolutely deserves, or they would act like, you know, trends weren't going in the right direction. Right. Like, we never come close to the highs we've been hitting. If Caitlin doesn't come along, we don't. That's a fact. Anybody who tells you otherwise is lying. Also, anybody who tells you like the ratings were, you know, in the toilet and trends were wrong before she came along is also lying. You know, like a case of two things can be true. So the 2025 playoffs, up until we don't have the ratings yet for, for game five of the semis, which I'm sure did well, but we're up 11% year over year and we're up 168% compared to 2023 thus far. We're averaging for a playoff game. Right now we're averaging 1.1 million viewers across, you know, both the first and, and semifinals through eight games, the semis. That's through the, you know, Both series, first four games averaging 1.3 million, which is up 48% versus last year, last year's semis. And it's on pace to be the most watched semis ever. And it will be because the game five between Vegas and Indiana is going to do well, even though it was on ESPN2 versus ESPN. It's going to do incredibly well because we've seen all Fever games and we've also seen, you know, if it's a compelling game, which that was amazing, it's going to rate well. The regular season was our most watched regular season ever across 25 regular season games average 1.3 million, up 6% from last year's record year. Non Indiana games, for those wondering about that, were up 30% on all ESPN networks year over year. You know, what's so significant about this is Caitlin was hurt for a huge part of this year. And like, and let's be clear, Caitlin's impact is still felt, you know, in a couple different ways. I think it's felt league wide regardless of whether she's playing or not. And I also think it's felt with the Fever games because a lot of Caitlyn fans became Fever fans. And we saw that in our ratings where even after she announced she was done for the year, we still were doing big ratings and fever games, which we thought, oh, because we thought maybe once people knew she's not coming back, like maybe they were watching to see, oh, how are they going to keep the ship afloat for when she comes back. But then once she announced she wasn't, we thought, like, are people going to drop off? And they. And they didn't know. Having said that, these numbers, if she was playing, you know, would have been even higher Right, Right. It's all just like amazing storylines because the non Indiana games are up 30% year over year. That's a massive. And last year we had a great year with them. Right. All the Indiana games, even without her playing were doing monster numbers. That leaves room for the growth that's going to happen when she does play next season, where it's going to go. Right. The playoffs in general are up astronomically from his historic highs last year. And I think some of it has to do with what you talk about all the time, which is the product in the league now being in this part of culture where it's stamped as cool. And so people now are like, yeah, I'm going to watch this WNBA playoff game. Like, yeah, come on, let's watch it.

Sue Bird (53:43)

You need to know now. You need to be in the know.

Ryan Ruko (53:45)

Exactly. And so really there's no way to slice what's happened this season and in the playoffs other than a massive metric success. This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org, jack Daniels and Old no. 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. What makes for a happy life? In 1938, scientists at Harvard started tracking the well being of over 200 young people to figure that out. Now, almost 90 years later, the results are in. There was learning. People who learned and read and read and read and liked to learn. They were much happier as they got older. People who are really good at managing their feelings. But there was one thing that stood above all the rest. I'm Henry Blodgett and this week on Solutions, I talked to best selling author Arthur Brooks about the science of happiness. Happiness. Follow Solutions with Henry Blodgett for more. Wherever you get your podcasts, a lot happened this month. Charlie Kirk, Jimmy Kimmel, James Comey. Easy to miss a resolution in the epic legal fight between the Murdochs. But their family drama matters because we've got a Fox News Secretary of Defense, Fox News Secretary of Transportation, Fox News Secretary of Jeanine Pirro. Our Fox News presidency is the crowning achievement of 94 year old media mogul Rupert Murdoch in Australia. If you say Rupert, if you mention the name Rupert, people know who you're talking about. He has been one of the most important kind of media owners not only for what he owns, but also for the way he's used it.

Sue Bird (55:48)

He has had this fascinating, but for many people, poisonous impact on political discourse, on politics more generally.

Ryan Ruko (55:59)

How Rupert Murdoch remade the world on Today. Explained Sip, sip, sip, sip, sip tomorrow.

Sue Bird (56:05)

So now we've arrived. The 2025 playoffs. They've been exceptional. You just talked about the ratings, but the play itself has been fun, captivating, dramatic. I think the only sad part, and I'll start by saying this is the injuries. That of course is always a bummer. Goes without saying. But as we get into this, you know, we're going to talk specifically about the play. So we got to the semis because Vegas beats Seattle, goes to a decisive game three. Phoenix beats New York, Decisive game three. Indiana beats Atlanta. Decisive game three. Minnesota was the only team to sweep in the first round. This is obviously, you know, a role that the new format played was maybe getting to these third games, but to me it's exciting. And then we get to the semis and we'll start with Minnesota. Phoenix, we already touched on. You know, what I really want to focus on is game two. You were courtside for that game. This was, I think, changed the trajectory of Phoenix's playoff run. Minnesota took game one. We already touched on what happened in game three, and we all know what happened in game four. But game two, just what did you see from Phoenix that, like I said, I really think it was just such a pivotal moment for them.

Ryan Ruko (57:24)

I saw something that I don't usually see from an Alyssa Thomas team early in that third quarter. And it was a team that to me looked like it was kind of done and Minnesota was picking them apart. And I like, literally at one point my producer said in her ear, we may just have five more games because it looked like Minnesota just wasn't going to lose. Right. And I was always a little worried about the Carrington injury because I did think that was significant for their depth.

Sue Bird (57:54)

I thought that was under discussed.

Ryan Ruko (57:56)

I agree. I think it was especially when you realize like they didn't have a wing to come off the bench. Then they, you know, so it was. The Carrington injury was massive. There's a reason why they went and got her. Right? But I, they still were just the, like the, the, the rhythm, the connectivity of their starting five was just. And this was like without even Carlton or Smith playing well, but just like, just like the space and the rhythm of the offense and then the way McBride and Courtney and Fee were playing and I, you know, they were just totally dissecting Phoenix. And if you looked at quarters three and four of game one and then one and two of game two, it was like they had outscored them by like 45 or something. And it was just like, it just felt like it was like destiny. Yeah. And I just didn't sense the spirit from Phoenix that I'm used to. Then two things I think happened. Alyssa Thomas gathered her team at the free throw line. At one point when they were down, whatever they were down in the third quarter, it was kind of like, you know, let's go, like this is not us. And then Minnesota started like really being careless with the basketball. And, and I just thought like, you know, their turnovers were the jet fuel for Phoenix because we know the Mercury, any Alyssa Thomas team is at its best when it's out in transition, you know, off of turnout, turnovers. And they were able to turn those turnovers into points. I think it was able to spark belief back into them. And then all of a sudden they're in a close game, you know, and they have a lot of prime time talent in the half court in a close game, you know, like. And, and so I think what I just saw was, I saw a team that was rolling kind of have some self inflicted wounds, a team that looked maybe done get fueled with some belief be reminded, oh no, you can hang. And then all of a sudden they were off to the races. And I just don't think Minnesota ever fully recovered from that. And I think Phoenix used that to fuel them into the wins that they got in the subsequent games.

Sue Bird (60:00)

Yeah, something we talked about. I'm just going to mention that I think played a role and it's, and it's just sometimes things are just unfortunate that Minnesota had three of their starters out heading into the fourth and by the time they got to the table it was around the 7:30, let's say minute mark. And because of the gameplay, there wasn't a stoppage and they didn't get in. And it's funny because when you go rewatch it, it's not that the score changes that much from the start of the fourth to when they do get in, but I do think it plays a role on like the mental state of. I just know as a starter when I'm checking back into a game and all of a sudden it's a, you know, six point game when it was even like a 9, 10, 11 point game, you're kind of like, ooh, it just feels different after being up big in the first half even. So that was just unfortunate. But yeah, I think it changed things for Phoenix. They obviously were fueled for game three. Found a way in game four. Found a way. Cause it wasn't great for them in game four either.

Ryan Ruko (61:01)

No. And you know, I remember at some point in the playoffs, somebody from the Mercury saying to me, you were a second half team and we've kind of seen that, you know, in playoffs. And. And I also think, you know, Nick Uren, their gm, deserves an unbelievable amount of credit because he's built a roster that makes sense and that has usable depth in these moments. And Nate Tibbets, I've been really impressed with him throughout these playoffs. I really have. You know, first of all, just like one little thing. The way he uses timeouts, I think is brilliant. Like he, if you watch, like he doesn't. Somehow he always has the compliment of timeouts you'd want him to have late in the game. But he also uses them like as soon as he see, like he's not afraid to, like he saw a possession or two that didn't look right. Like we're talking about it now. Yeah. So. Yeah.

Sue Bird (61:54)

Okay, real quick. You just made me think of something. What do you think it is about the makeup of Phoenix's roster and the job that Nick has done? Like going out a lot of like older rookies, right. Finding Monique Akoa Makani, like, what do you. Do you think this is just, man, because nobody predicted them to finish as high as they did or to get to the Finals. Like, what does it communicate to you about like what the winning formula now is for this league, if anything?

Ryan Ruko (62:25)

Well, I think shooting off the bench, you know, where with players that also aren't going to hurt you defensively, like.

Sue Bird (62:32)

Three and you know, we've entered the era.

Ryan Ruko (62:36)

Well, Kat West Bell, for example, like, metrically, she performs incredibly well as a small ball five defensively, you know, and then, and then brings the shooting that she does and you never look at her and think like she's going to play five, you know, like. But she can and she does. And then her shooting is translated. Right. She's had a calm to her in those moments, honestly. Megan Gustafson has had that from a shooting standpoint in these playoffs as well for Vegas where like she's come in and just been like very calm and delivered big moments them. But then I think the shooting off the bench with West Belt with Wickham, again, calm, you know, Wickham, obviously your former teammate, veteran, and then Akoa Makhani. And I think it also speaks to in some ways the resources an organization like Phoenix has put into finding talent in different places. Right. Like, you know, like, Matt Ishbia has left. No, Spence, you know, you know, you know, no stone unturned. He's, you know, he'll spare no expense. There's how I wanted those phrases to go. Like, you know, in order to do whatever he can for his team. And I think some of that manifests in how you're going to, like, be able to scout things internationally and the data and analytics you're going to be able to gather from that. And Nick will be the first to tell you that it was, you know, his assistant GMs who really found all the depth pieces we're talking about because of the work they put into that. But if you don't kind of have a setup in your front office that allows for that, then those pieces may never be found. So I think it's the shooting, and then I think it also speaks to the organizational resources.

Sue Bird (64:13)

No, I think that's a great point about the resources. Okay, so obviously, Minnesota's revenge tour ends. Phoenix moves on. Now we're gonna switch over to the other semis, where Vegas was the ultimate winner. But, I mean, man, this series had so many storylines. You've got all the conversation around the refs, the foul margins, discrepancies. People are getting fined left and right. We're talking about coaches and what they're wearing and what their records are with certain outfits on. We've got South Carolina on South Carolina crime, if you will. You've got these two legendary South Carolina players just battling, and they both. They both guarded each other really well. I mean, Aaliyah, I was really impressed with Aaliyah because Asia is no joke. Asia is no joke to guard. And so that was really impressive to watch Aaliyah do that. And then, of course, the last storyline, so we'll start there, is just the magical run that was Indiana in the playoffs.

Ryan Ruko (65:09)

I mean, they were so impressive. Like, if you were to. You know, we got to remember this team went, was it seven or eight years? I think it was seven years without making the playoffs, you know, and they had Kelsey Mitchell for. Yeah, exactly. A good chunk of those years. For one of those years, they had Aaliyah Boston, and they had Kelsey Mitchell. And so last year, they get Caitlin. And especially that second half of the year, right. Things just come together, and it seems like, you know, you get, like, everything just works with those three. And. And so if you would have said to anybody, I think going into this year, hey, Caitlin's only going to play 13 games. I think they would have said this team's going to be lucky if they're not going to make the playoffs. Like they'll be lucky if they're sniffing the playoffs, nevermind be able to make a run to the semifinals. And I think it speaks to a few things. Like one, the growth, the stardom, the excellence of Kelsey Mitchell and Aaliyah Boston, the consistency of those players, just incredible. I think the grit of Alexi Hull, who just like, you know, I was talking with. Yeah. And I was talking with Steph about it yesterday, like how she just does things you can't teach. So she just like has a knack for these winning things that you just can't teach, you know, and you see it even with like, things as simple as rebounding, as a guard on the offensive edge. Right.

Sue Bird (66:29)

Every offensive rebound she gets is like a knife to the heart for the other team.

Ryan Ruko (66:33)

Right, right. And it feels like she's always like flying in from the other side of the floor to make it happen. Right. And then I think Steph, like I said this on air during game five, but I believe it. Like the Indiana Fever front office should go tell Steph White, hey, you know, we'll sign you to a lifetime contract right now. Like, the fact that they were in that series, when you look at the rosters and who was on the floor and by, you know, in that series, like, it's an. It's just an amazing accomplishment that they were able to push that to a game five and then for Kelsey to go out in the third quarter when Vegas is up four and they quickly push it to nine and you kind of just think like curtains, like, you know, Indiana had their fun, like that's it for them to then somehow find a way to tie that game and push it to overtime. Like that I think would have been the most implausible victory I've ever seen in the WNBA playoffs if they would have pulled that off, finish that off. Yeah. So, yeah, like Indiana, I just think, like it's a season where you would do nothing but celebrate, you know, that game and that season. They should be so proud of everything they've done.

Sue Bird (67:42)

Yeah. I also think it's a story of just what vets bring to a team. That winning mentality. We can go down the list. Odyssey Sims, play Petty's timely threes. Even Breezy Turner not playing a lot in the regular season, coming in, these are just players that know winning basketball. We could even go to Phoenix and kind of piggyback off what we were just talking about, which I understand some of those players don't have WNBA experience, but some of those first time rookies are still older and they've experienced the world of basketball. So I do think that plays a role. I always bring this up because sometimes, given the way our previous cba, who knows what the future holds has been, sometimes that vet minimum player has gotten squeezed out because of money and people go young. But it shows that you need this type of play in order to go far. Real quick, you already touched on Stephanie White. She's done an absolutely incredible job this season in particular, like, strategically, what makes her and made her so effective?

Ryan Ruko (68:42)

I think just her ability to adapt to the personnel she has or doesn't have. You know, she kind of knew at certain points, she's like, I'd like to do this, this and this. We can't do this anymore. We're gonna run even. We were talking to Becky after game four, and she was like, they beat us with two plays, like, and she was like, they were able to just keep running them effectively. She was like, they did this little, like, finger twist and then it was transition and that's it. And like, you kind of saw that, like in game four, like that cross screen getting Aaliyah the ball on the block, like, over and over and over again. And what I love about that is, like, Steph is a brilliant coach. She has a million different sets she can orchestrate in the half court. She's like, hey, this is the personnel I got right now. This is what we have to run. We're going to do it, you know, and it reminds me a little bit of, like, what I used to be told about Bill Parcells as a. As a kid, where it was like, hey, like, this ball, you're running it, you're getting 10 yards up the middle every time. We're going to do it and do it and do it until, you know, you can't stop it. And so I just thought, like, she had a great kind of, like, holistic view of what her roster was at. Every different moment she had it.

Sue Bird (69:50)

Yeah.

Ryan Ruko (69:50)

And was like, this is what I can get out of this now, and this is what we're going to do.

Sue Bird (69:55)

Being adaptable, I think, is number one, if not number one, like, top three qualities that a coach has to have. You can't do the, you know, what is it? The round peg, square hole thing and just try to jam it in. You just can't. So, yeah, that's actually a huge compliment because that's something not every coach has.

Ryan Ruko (70:14)

And I want to also say this about Becky, who's another incredible coach. You know, I think what. Maybe she. I mean, she does definitely. People acknowledge and know what a great coach she is. But one thing I thought about that, like, I don't know if she's gotten enough credit for this year or not. Like, to me, having a veteran team that has won before, you know, and to have them as late in the season as they were looking, as dismal as they were, like, it would be like. Like, it'd be really easy to not ever be able to get that, you know, engine turned on properly for them, I would think.

Sue Bird (70:52)

Or I would actually just, like, reword that and say it's really hard to get those engines turned on.

Ryan Ruko (70:58)

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that, like, exactly. That's. That's the way it felt to me. Like, it would be really hard to get that switch flipped. And somehow she did. Right? Somehow she did with this group. And now, you know, they. And obviously she'd be the first to give the credit to Asia for her persistence and leadership through it. But I think when you think about, you know, Becky and Asia as kind of that tandem and then Jackie and Chelsea, like, you know, it's really impressive to me that in August they were able to turn this season around to a point where they are now playing for the finals and even in the semis. Right. Even though they clearly were the more talented team, and that would have been a really tough to stomach loss if they had lost that series. But to be able to withstand kind of the, you know, the. The never ending lives of the Indiana ye. I think they deserve a lot of credit for that, for their resiliency as well.

Sue Bird (71:51)

Yeah, I mean, I'd argue it's the best thing that happened to them. I thought that about the Seattle series heading into the semis. Sometimes when you go through, you know, series like this, games like this, it only helps you if you find a way out, which they did. They found a way out of it, like, to your point, in the regular season, out of this, like, rut. They now found their way out of this Indiana series, which I totally agree. Indiana was riding emotion and it had nothing to lose. That's really hard to play against, you know, just to, like, put a bow on the semis. You already mentioned it. Asia played great throughout the semis, had some difficulties from time to time with that Boston matchup. But then you saw Jackie Young step up when she needed to. I thought the overtime last night to finally see, like, Jewel and Chelsea Kind of be the ones to carry the load, if you will. A little bit was a good sign moving forward. And then you already mentioned Becky's coaching. Something Becky brought up was in that series. And I'm curious if it takes to the finals and we're going to go to the finals now is like, our offense is fine. At one point, I think you guys were interviewing her mid game.

Ryan Ruko (72:54)

Like our defense.

Sue Bird (72:56)

Yeah, we're having a problem with our defense. All right, so here we are. The finals start on Friday. Phoenix versus Las Vegas will stay with Vegas. First, what do they need to do defensively against Phoenix?

Ryan Ruko (73:10)

I think, you know, obviously for Phoenix, their big thing is they're flat. Right. Like when they do that flat screen.

Sue Bird (73:16)

They set for at. Absolutely.

Ryan Ruko (73:18)

And they're spread out. And we've talked with AT about this. She has never had this kind of shooting surrounding her in her career, you know, and like, that's obviously accessing her best self. And so I think for Vegas, it's. It's figuring out a way to try and contain that, you know, to try and as much as you can. And we. Phoenix has shown the ability to adjust both with AT as a screener or as the handler in those moments, but I think, like, you know, trying to figure out how. How you can defend that. Yeah, I think the offensive key for Phoenix in the. What we've kind of seen is as satu's offensive production goes, so goes the Mercury. And so if I'm Vegas and I'm focusing on one thing in particular, you know, defensively, it's like, okay, how are we going to keep SATU quiet, especially from three? You know, we've used this stat a couple times at the end of the year, but I believe it's that Phoenix is now 23 and 9 this year. I think it is. Could be 20, could be 24, but something 23 and 9, when Satu shoots, shoots 21% or better from 3. Not just 21%. Not, not. Not. Not good.

Sue Bird (74:37)

If I'm wrong just doing this.

Ryan Ruko (74:40)

Exactly. Exactly. When she shoots below, they're 4 and 9. So, like, when they get any level of production and any level of even, like a sniff of efficiency from 3 from her, they win.

Sue Bird (74:51)

Yeah.

Ryan Ruko (74:51)

You know, and so that would be my focus if I was Vegas.

Sue Bird (74:54)

Okay. I totally agree on the flat screen. I feel like I have three, four ways in the back of my head that I'm like, I can't. I'm actually shocked teams haven't tried to do things differently.

Ryan Ruko (75:05)

Do you even share those?

Sue Bird (75:06)

I Mean, well, you got. You're running out of time. I'll tell you offline.

Ryan Ruko (75:09)

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's for the next episode.

Sue Bird (75:12)

I'll show them after the finals.

Ryan Ruko (75:14)

Okay.

Sue Bird (75:15)

Yeah, yeah. But in order to execute those, you know, you have to have a team that has worked on it. And that's always, you know, an issue in the wnba, especially in the playoffs. Cause the games happen so fast. But I am curious if, like Vegas having to play against really difficult pick and roll players like Kelsey Mitchell and Odyssey Sims, they might be the two or two of the best guards off. Pick and rolls, who? Snake. They snake that screen so well. I mean, and it puts you in all kinds of dilemmas. So maybe having to guard the pick and roll, having to be so focused on it will help Vegas in this flat screen. But they're going to have to come up with some game plans. And yeah, honestly, guarding Satu, you can just. I didn't know those numbers, but zero surprise that, that as she goes, they go a little bit. Okay, let's move over to Vegas's offense.

Ryan Ruko (76:08)

Yeah.

Sue Bird (76:08)

What do they need to. Who do you think might be an X factor for them? How about that?

Ryan Ruko (76:13)

I think Dana Evans. You know, we were talking to, we were talking yesterday to, to Asia about, about, like, okay, you and Jackie, your production is kind of given at this point. Like, who do you look at and say, and she, she brought up Dan Evans and she said, she's our battery, she's our fire. And all series, we heard Stephanie White talking to us about her concerns with Dana.

Sue Bird (76:37)

They went zone.

Ryan Ruko (76:38)

Yeah, they had to go zone when Dana was in the game. And I think it's significant because, like, how is Phoenix going to match up with that? Because you would think like Akoa Makani, her tenacity and speed defensively, she could just kind of guard Dana well. But like, what if they're not, you know, their minutes aren't matched up? Like, how does Phoenix adjust to that? And you know, and the other thing I think we've seen is like Phoenix is going to get production out of their bench. They led the league and bench scoring this year. They have gotten consistent bench production in these playoffs. Vegas is going to need that. Obviously they have Jewel coming off the bench who, who is definitely an X factor because we know what she's capable of. Yep. But I think Dana, like, I look at Dana and I say, I feel like Dana is going to have to have the kind of series like she had against Indiana in order for Vegas to be able to hang Their bench to hang with Phoenix's bench. Okay.

Sue Bird (77:31)

I love that. All right, moving on to Phoenix. I got two more questions for you. We've already. You've already mentioned a lot about what makes Phoenix, like, great. What's gotten them here? What will they need to do to have success in this finals against Vegas?

Ryan Ruko (77:46)

Nate Tippetts, We've had several of their games in these playoffs, both series, and he very consistently, when we ask him, okay, number one, key, or I like to ask coaches. All right, we're going to play fill in the blank. We will win today. If blank happens. What's the blank? Resilience. Yeah, exactly. He always says he was like, if we defend with physicality.

Sue Bird (78:11)

Yeah.

Ryan Ruko (78:11)

And like. And so to me, like, that it's.

Sue Bird (78:16)

Not just why he doesn't complain about the refs.

Ryan Ruko (78:19)

Maybe he's the only one.

Sue Bird (78:22)

He's the only one. On ourselves.

Ryan Ruko (78:25)

He's the only one. I know. I thought. I thought he took a good. I thought he took a good approach on that, definitely. But. But especially for Phoenix's purposes. For Phoenix's purposes. That was the. That was the move. But he. I think it's like, obviously it's the effectiveness of that defense, but I think it's also what it does for their spirit and their identity, you know, like, that, I think, is when an AT team feels like an AT team and the Phoenix Mercury are now an AT team, you know, and like, so that means you're defending with a relentless engine and a physicality that the opponents feel. And so I. I think that if they can defend with that same level of tenacity and physicality and you can see it, you can feel it. Like, that's what was interesting to me about that game, too, against Minnesota. It wasn't there for two and a half quarters. It just wasn't there. And then all of a sudden when it got turned on, you know, you can feel like you're playing five on eight because. Because of the way they're. They're defending and their relentlessness and the way they're flying around. And so I think that's what they need.

Sue Bird (79:27)

Yeah. And that's actually circles back to why Dana Evans can be an X factor. If she can be somebody that can handle that pressure that can maybe alleviate, you know, give Chelsea a spell here and there, Jackie a spell here and there of having to deal with it. That can really help. We haven't really talked much about Alyssa Thomas. So very quickly. That is not. Because she isn't gonna have. Hasn't had major impact and won't. I mean, it's almost sad that her triple doubles feel like the norm. So obviously AT is gonna have to play really well. But last question. This is the first year of the seven game series. I'm sure your travel schedule is going to be an absolute nightmare. How do you think this is going to impact the series? And then who do you think it favors?

Ryan Ruko (80:11)

You know, I think for the teams, the good thing is that Phoenix to Vegas is such a short.

Sue Bird (80:16)

Yeah, great point.

Ryan Ruko (80:18)

Yeah. Yes. You know, it's like, it's harder for those of us who are going to try and steal some off days on the east coast in between games.

Sue Bird (80:27)

It'll do. Good for your miles, though.

Ryan Ruko (80:29)

Yeah, exactly. It will. Yeah. Fresh off the. Fresh off the JetBlue red eye last night from Vegas. But I. I think that, like, it's maybe helpful this year that there isn't as much travel for between the two cities because I think, you know, eventually maybe you want to get to a point where you have an extra day between game six and seven. Like, that was something I worried about a little bit last year in the finals where we saw, like, one gorgeous, aesthetically pleasing style of basketball through the first four games, and then game five with those teams just, like, worn out like now. Granted, game five was unbelievably dramatic and competitive and compelling, but the actual basketball, as Geno talked about the other day, was not the best representation. Right.

Sue Bird (81:19)

A lot of that was critique.

Ryan Ruko (81:21)

Yeah, exactly. And that's what I would worry about in a game seven with only one day between six and seven. What makes me a little less worried is, like, how easy the travel at least is gonna be during this series. But I think it's great. I think the most underrated thing in ratings in sports is close games and stakes. Yes, stars and storylines are hallmarks of what drive an audience. But what really helps to exponentially grow an audience when an event is on is when it is a really close game with something on the line. And why have we seen the ratings be so good over the playoffs thus far? We've had a lot of series go the distance, and we've had incredibly close games, you know, and those are two huge factors. They're not the only factors, but they're massive factors. And so I think with this series, like, I just kind of feel like that's been a theme of these playoffs. And I would be surprised if this doesn't go at least six especially. Just feels like it's the first year of it going seven. It's going to go six or seven, it's not going to end. Like it just kind of feels. Feels that way.

Sue Bird (82:38)

Yeah. Do you think it favors either team in any way?

Ryan Ruko (82:41)

I don't. I mean I get, you know, the Aces play their, you know, they have home court, so a game seven at home, you know, I think can. Can play for them. I mean, I guess you could say a longer series could favor Phoenix because there's an attrition you feel from playing against them and their physicality defensively. But then again there's a. I think there's a kind of what we saw in overtime last night from the Aces, like there was a crazy level of execution from their veterans in overtime, you know, and so maybe as a series gets deeper, Vegas is able to rely on that continuity with their experience to help guide them across the finish line. So I think you can make a case either way. But there's no obvious, like longer series favors one for me.

Sue Bird (83:24)

Yeah, I agree. I think there's like a double edged sword that exists for Phoenix, which is what you just said. Right. Like the way they play defense, the aggression they have that can wear a team down. It's also what fuels their running game. But generally in the playoffs and game five last year is a great example. All of a sudden in those series ending type games, things slow down. It's much more half court, you're gonna be a little more tired. So the double edged sword is it could favor them. It also could be something that they have to manage a little bit. Cause the way they play also tires them out. I mean, I'm sure when you play.

Ryan Ruko (84:01)

That high level defensively to your point, you're gonna feel amazing about in those situations. A Jackie or an Asia. Right. Like if it's just like half court, go make something happen. Like. Yeah, maybe more so than any other two players in the series. Yeah. So that, that could favor the Aces, but I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be really compelling. Two great coaches, two deep teams with like prime. Prime stars like Asia going for number three at going for number one. Like there's a lot of, I think juicy drama.

Sue Bird (84:32)

Yeah, we love juicy drama here, Ryan. I mean, fresh off of Red Eye. I can't thank you enough. This was amazing. U I'm also so excited for the finals. We'll all be listening to you come Friday. You, Rebecca and Holly and I. Can't wait. Thanks for coming on.

Ryan Ruko (84:48)

Yeah, yeah. Thank you for having me. Always happy to go on a pod that I love listening to. So great work my friend.

Sue Bird (84:58)

All right, there you have it. Loved that conversation with Ryan. He's a really good friend, so someone that I always like to chat basketball with. And like I mentioned in the interview, he has a courtside seat to basically everything. And not only that, he gets to talk with coaches, he gets to chat with players in shoot arounds and in pregame interviews. So he just has an insight that's really informed whether we're talking about a specific game, a specific moment, or really the storylines that are surrounding the wnba. So really enjoyed that conversation. Hopefully you guys did too. Don't forget Listeners Choice Voting for the Signal Awards ends October 9th. We're nominated in the sports category. Just click the link in the description to vote and support Bird's Eye View. Thank you for listening and thank you for your vote. This episode is a co production of Together and Vox Media. Our producers are Tommy Alter, Jason Gallagher, Richie Bozick, Harry Krinsky, Jess Clarendon and Melanie Carter. Support for Bird's Eye View comes from the all Electric Toyota Beezy the true test of a first rate intellect is the ability to change one's mind. That's a quote from me. I just made it up. But it sounds good, doesn't it? So maybe it's time to revisit your thoughts on battery electric vehicles with the all electric Toyota bz. I've already told you about a few of its amazing features. Its EPA estimated driving range rating up to 314 miles. Its versatile charging capabilities available. Premium JBL9 speaker audio system. Its sleek and chiseled design so I won't repeat myself. All I'll say is go check it out for yourself. The all electric BZ1 drive can change your mind. Learn more@toyota.com BZ Toyota let's go places.