← Bird's Eye View with Sue Bird
Bird's Eye View with Sue Bird
Kelsey Mitchell on Her Leg Injury and the Indiana Fever’s Impressive Playoff Run
01:17:13
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- [00:09]
A
Hey everybody. Welcome back to Bird's Eye View. This week's guest is one of the toughest scorers in the league. She's a former number two overall pick and the Fever's all time leader in 30 point games. She's been the absolute heartbeat of Indiana and the kind of player who truly sets the tone for her team. Her confidence and her work ethic are all unmatched with a game that's built on precision and poise and honestly, an Energizer Bunny battery back there. This season she carried her team through injuries, broke franchise records and showed what leadership looks like when the pressure hits hardest. I'm talking about none other than Kelsey Mitchell. Support for Bird's Eye View comes from the all electric Toyota BZ. What would convince you to go electric? An EPA estimated driving range rating up to 314 miles. Versatile charging capability compatible with most public chargers. Available Premium JBL9 speaker audio. With the all electric Toyota BZ you can get all of the above and more. Available all wheel drive models with X mode and grip control give you enhanced traction and the BZ's portable dual voltage charging cable gives you flexibility to power up the way you want. The all electric BZ OneDrive can change your mind. Learn more at toyota.com BZ Toyota let's go places.
- [01:26]
B
Morning Zoe.
- [01:27]
A
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- [01:44]
C
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- [01:55]
A
Guys@T mobile.com switch before we get to the interview. You know what time it is. It's time for Sue's view. All right, Tommy, we're in a little bit of a, you know, WNBA is over. The aces are champs. They just did their parade. It's a little bit of a downtime. So what do you got for me this time?
- [02:12]
B
All right, so I feel like the the big conversation piece over the last five, five or six days. Maybe this is just spending too much time on the Internet, which might be a mistake, but the AP put out a list of greatest college female players of all time. I'm just going to read through the first and second team, just for anyone watching or listening who didn't see this. And then I want to get your just thoughts. I mean, on the list itself, but then also what you think defines a. A category like this. So the first team was Cheryl Miller, Brianna Stewart, Candice Parker, Diana Tausi and Caitlyn Clark. Second team, the person who hosts the show, Dawn Staley, Shamika Holtzclaw, Maya Moore and Lucia Harris. So I just kind of want to get your initial thoughts on the first team first.
- [02:57]
A
Well, the person who hosts the show should be on first team. That's my hot take.
- [03:03]
B
I should have my own team. This whole list is bullshit.
- [03:09]
A
Well, I can't take this list seriously. What have we been talking about? Just a rant.
- [03:15]
B
I'm going to spend 45 minutes on this. But yeah, what do you think?
- [03:18]
A
I think there's no right answer to these lists ever. I mean, women's college basketball has been around for a bajillion years. So to narrow it down is crazy. I think the things that. I'll tell you what jumped out just in terms of the names. And then I can kind of get into like my own criteria. Maya Moore not being on first team jumped out. She is actually the only player to go back to. Back to back as the Wade Trophy, which is like the national player of the year, the big one. She's the only player to ever win it three times and won it three times in a row. And. And she's a two time national champion, so. And was on teams that went undefeated. So her not being on first team, you know, and listen, I have a rule in my life. Megan likes to hold me to this. If you're gonna say someone belongs on a team, then you have to remove. I don't wanna do that this time though. I don't know who I would remove.
- [04:14]
B
I think that's why. What's the point?
- [04:17]
A
What's the point? This is extra.
- [04:19]
B
These are. We can add extra without, without, without taking somebody off.
- [04:23]
A
Great. There's six people on first team. Actually there's seven. I'm on first team and now on first team. No, I'm just kidding. So yeah, I think that stuck out. You don't list Sabrina, who was back to back Wade Trophy winner. But I will say Sabrina didn't win a national Championship. Only went to one Final Four, but got 2020 taken away from her. That stuck out. Simone Augustus not being on any of the lists stuck out. She went back to back as a Wade Trophy winner, went to three final Fours, but again, didn't win. So then it becomes. How important is that, really? And I think that's what people, when they talk about Caitlyn in this conversation, that's always where it goes. But I think Caitlyn, in a sense, is this outlier because, a. The way she did it. Yeah, the way she did it. And even though she didn't win, which I'm big on winning, I think, you know, the whole ring culture conversation, I'm like, well, that's the point. The point is to win, so it matters. But she did go to two finals. She carried two teams to two finals. So that's where it gets. That's where I think she separates herself. Yeah. The other thing is, I don't know how Shamiqua holds claw, isn't on first team. That, to me, it's like three national championships in a row. What I think people. I always say, I actually talked about this on a touch more with Megan. People forget about her. People forget about her. And I get it. She didn't have the longevity to her career. She wasn't playing at a time. We're talking about, like, Shamiqua holds claw. Shamiqua, like, cover of Slam magazine wearing a Knicks jersey. Her playing now, I can't even imagine. But I think people forget about her from time to time. So, yeah, that's kind of like the first thought.
- [06:04]
B
What about. No. Asia?
- [06:06]
A
She's on. She's on there. She's just on the. The reserves first.
- [06:10]
B
She's not on first or second team.
- [06:12]
A
Yeah. So, like, Asia.
- [06:14]
B
Yeah.
- [06:14]
A
Brittney Griner and Sheryl Swoop's being just reserves. But, you know, there's also. Asia had a great college career. They won once, which is, of course, she was player of the year. So it's like no knock on her. You could just make arguments for other people's resumes and impact. Not that she didn't have a company.
- [06:35]
B
I have a college question for you. I don't know. Totally. You're gonna have the answer to this because, like, I just. You're not as, you know, spending as much time around college campuses probably as you used to. But I'm just curious, with everything going on with nil, with all the changing in the landscape and everything like that, do you feel like if you were just to put your pure prediction hat on, like, the dynasties are going to stay the same or they're going to. Things are going to shift over time? Because I'm thinking about, like, on the men's side. I feel like the teams that Are like the teams of the men's college basketball future are going to be like Auburn and Arkansas. And these schools that just have a bunch of money, you know, that are just throwing. They did. We're not traditionally, like, great basketball programs, but they're using this NIL money to go get everybody. Like, do you think that this is gonna. It's. Everything's gonna stay the same, or do you anticipate there being a shift?
- [07:31]
A
I think in women's college basketball right now, two things are gonna happen simultaneously that are gonna impact each other. I still think the coaches in women's college basketball are why kids pick schools. Yes. Nil money, for sure. But by the way, if you're getting recruited by South Carolina, if you're getting recruited by LSU, if you're a top recruit, you're getting recruited by UConn. Right. And those are the three that. That. That jump out because of the legendary coaches. You're probably getting nil money to go there.
- [08:02]
B
Yep.
- [08:03]
A
Right. So I still think those schools and some others are gonna be dominant and be, you know, in the dynasty categories, and they're going to continue to build. But when those coaches retire or stop or move on or whatever happens, if they ever left, then the whole landscape shifts. Then the whole landscape shifts. And, you know, that's not to say other coaches don't show themselves as being part of the destination, but I think that's, like, still a big part. And at the same time, money does talk, and that's why you're seeing all these transfers. And I. And. And to add to this, this is really how I feel about nil. We don't know what the landscape's going to be. I mean, I don't even think they know what it's going to be tomorrow, let alone what it's going to be in three, four, five years. There's so much that needs to get. It has to change. I just don't think this is sustainable the way it's set up right now.
- [08:55]
B
I think I totally agree with you. And I also feel like. And I don't know so much that this has hit basketball yet, but it's becoming a thing. And foot college football, for example, there's private equity. They're talking about private equity getting into this, which seems insane, I think, on its face. And also, I don't think to me, that's a. Be careful what you wish for if you're a fan, because with private equity, it's like any business. It's like when they come in, they expect a result and if they don't get it, they're going to rip it up. So the whole idea of, like, traditional and everything like that, it becomes a pure financial thing. You know, it's. It has nothing to do with legacy anymore. It's just like, how do we. But I. But this is happening. This is happening with Penn State. I don't know if you followed this. They fired their coach, and, you know, he has a $49 million buyout, which is a pretty sweet. Pretty sweet.
- [09:46]
A
Sometimes I'm like, can I get fired? No, not really, but, you know, I will. I'm going to tie this back to the WNBA in that. What I'm most curious about, and there's so many angles to take on this conversation, so much nuance. I'm just focusing on this one angle. What I'm wondering is, are the schools, the coaches, the programs that get players WNBA ready. Like, think. Think what Coach Calipari did. For a while there, he was the stepping stone to the NBA, right? Like, that's. Whether it was true or not, people can debate, but the proof was in the pudding. He had all these players going to the NBA. They were all NBA ready. And once the NBA. I'm sorry, once the WNBA and the CBA hits and the money increases and that becomes, like, the place everybody's trying to get to to make bank. Now you're not just going to college for the nil money, for the experience. You're trying to get ready for something. And I'm curious how that impacts recruiting. Like, we're talking in five to 10 years. I'm really curious how that impacts recruiting.
- [10:50]
B
Yeah, it's going to be. It's going to be really interesting, and it'll also be it. This is. This has been happening for the last few years with that nil. You know, this was obviously a big thing with. With Caitlin and Angel and those Iowa and LSU teams, but I think even before them, a little bit, there's the nil money is a lot of times, you know, it favors the women's players over the men's players.
- [11:12]
A
Oh, absolutely.
- [11:13]
B
In basketball. And so the whole landscape. The whole landscape does feel like, to your point earlier, like, it's hard to predict because nobody. There's no blueprint for any of this. This is just. We're in the wild. We're in the wild West. For better or for worse.
- [11:27]
A
Everything about women's basketball right now is wild. Wild West.
- [11:31]
B
Yeah. I was gonna say let's check back in nine days and see where we're at. Then we'll have our convo about that.
- [11:39]
C
Yeah.
- [11:40]
A
All this talk about college greatest players nil. I know our next guest would have been dipping into all those buckets. That's a nice little segue to Kelsey Mitchell, who is a Buckeye. Let's check it out. Kelsey, welcome to the show.
- [11:59]
C
Thanks for having me.
- [12:02]
A
I'm excited for this one. Thank you. First of all, how are you? Where are you? What have you been doing?
- [12:10]
C
Well, so after obviously the last game, it feels like a blur now. But it was hard, so.
- [12:16]
A
It was hard.
- [12:17]
C
I felt, you know, knowing how the season ended, to even say, like, how I'm doing now. It's like I'm humbled that I can still be in a position to get back to, like, training, you know, to kind of, like, get back to some of my ways. But I won't lie. So it's like a good, like two weeks. Like, I was just, I was just down. I was out. Like, how the season ended, what the season felt like, what life felt like, you know, on top of, like, dealing with, like, grief and my dad still, it was just, you know, I was just happy. I'm glad I can be having this conversation with you.
- [12:52]
A
Yeah, for sure. I mean, we're going to get into all of it. I will start with, like, how is your leg feeling? And you know, for those of us like myself, how do you even pronounce what that was? Like? Can you give a description? Yes, it's kind of what that was. And obviously, real quick, we can only joke about it cause you're fine. This obviously was a very serious thing. So I don't mean to make light, but at the same time, I'm like, I couldn't even pronounce it right.
- [13:20]
C
The short ending is called rhabdo, but rhabdomyosis. And it's basically where my bloodstream just kind of got like a chokehold. And we all have this thing where we have positive and negative blood flow. I didn't get any blood flow to my muscles, so my, my, my body just locked too. Like I told the ref, I'm like, just keep. Like something's happening. Like, stop the game. Like, I felt like I was going through an out of body experience. Like, I felt numb. I felt like I couldn't move my feet. And then I began to panic here because I'm like, wow, my feet's not moving. And then I looked up at ab and I looked up at Lexi. And, you know, we had gone through so many wars together that, you know, we just start all, like, being emotional like, it was just like, oh, my God, my feet's not moving. Like, I felt like. I just kind of felt crazy. Like, I felt like. And then the end of it was the cramping and all that, but I just felt like I went on an out of body experience for like 7 seconds. I felt like my mind and my. My entire muscles and my body just had just left me. Like, it was weird. It was crazy.
- [14:20]
A
How scared were you? Like, what was going through your mind when things started to lock up? I saw some quotes saying you couldn't really. Whether it was like, feel the bottom half of your leg or move the bottom half of your leg. So, I mean, that had to have been so scary.
- [14:35]
C
Yeah, I felt like I was like. I felt the worst of the worst is that I was paralyzed. I was like, wow, is this really how it's going to end? You know, Cause we competitors and we was just in a moment and, you know, you love basketball and like, you know, the way the game is going, the way the series is going, the way, you know, the flow of everything. At that time, I was just like. The least I thought I was gonna do was finish the game. And I felt like, you know, a little piece of like, dang, like, you know, was I not ready for the moment? Is that why it didn't happen? You know, I just had so many emotions and I felt like, you know, like I didn't finish, but my team did. And I was just grateful that I ended up being on the other side of it. But it sucked for a while.
- [15:16]
A
So I wanna, like, get to all that. You're coming off arguably your best WNBA season since being drafted in 2018. There's so many more topics and questions to ask about that moment. But I always say, like, in order to get to all the moments you're having now, you gotta take it back a little bit too. So real quick, the start of this season, it felt like the whole season felt like a statement year for you. What do you think was different about or was there anything different about your approach to. And how did that evolve throughout the season?
- [15:53]
C
I think a big part of it was grief. I think I played with a lot of passion. I think it was just a way to express myself. I think it was less about proving and more about allowing hoop to kind of save my life at that time. I think the last couple of years especially. But this year was definitely one of those moments because I was still dealing with so much. And I felt like at the time, sue, the least I could do, you know, Was not give up. And I wasn't gonna do that at all. You know, I had already mastered in my mind that I wasn't. No matter what happened, no matter what I felt, I wasn't gonna give up hoop or allow it to like, hinder me. And so after a while, I just let the game flow and let it all just, you know, let it hang loose and let myself, let it be how I express myself.
- [16:39]
A
Yeah. So just for people that, you know, might not know your story as well, sadly, your dad, like unexpectedly passed away last year right before the start of the 2024 season. So that is something that I know he played such a huge role in. Obviously your life, cause he's your father, but even your basketball life. So you wanna just quickly just talk about, like, how would you wanna. When you talk about him, how do you like to honor him?
- [17:06]
C
Definitely like a hard nose, disciplinarian type guy, but a teddy bear. As big as he was on the outside, he was a softy on the inside. And we built a relationship to have like a bond of like a best friend through basketball. And the way he introduced it to me and my siblings, it just came from a lot of love and a lot of passion. And I think that's how our soul tie was linked. It was just a matter of like, the way he introduced it to me. I ended up loving it the way he did. And I think that was just like our love language. And I think that is what people see now. That's like the love language that I had my pops. And I think who he was was just, you know, shut up and work. Get the work done. Be who you're supposed to be. He was real into character, like who you are when no one's watching. Like, he was just that kind of guy. Like it matters, like, and you know, it came from like, obviously some of the stuff that he had went through. But I think that he wanted good for us, you know, as his kids, but also as athletes.
- [18:04]
A
Right. I mean, I would imagine, I can only imagine how proud he is watching you, because that's exactly how I would describe you this season. You, during this playoff run, like someone who you can never count out, somebody who, you know, whether it's like a timely three or you know, a layup in transition, like, you just had these killer moments, but you did it with this like huge smile on your face. It'd be like a timeout. You'd be running to your huddle with like this huge grin. So it really feels like, you know, what he instilled is what you showed. I mean, this year you averaged over 20 a game. You broke a decade long franchise record with that, which is crazy as well. You were an all star for the. Yeah, you were an all star for the third consecutive year, but you were also selected all WBA first team. You were on a team for the first time. Yeah, I think being on one of the wnba, like the all WNBA teams is probably outside of mvp, but that can only go to one person. But you were also top five in that. That's probably like one of the highest honors, you know, that you can get for like an individual performance. So what does making an all WNBA team mean to you?
- [19:16]
C
It was super humbling. I think the people that were also on the list is like competitors are competitors, but you also respect them as people. You respect them as Hoopers. And so to even be along the side of like Asia Wilson or at or like, you know, like the best, you know, like Leash Gray does her own thing in Atlanta and made her own noise. It's like, it's just a matter of respect that I grew to like have and I don't know, sue, like, I didn't feel like it was my first month, so I was like, wow, that's crazy. You know, like, I'm like, I'm like, wow. But I also felt like just super humble because I was like, dang, I guess that it could have been worse. And I just felt grateful that it, you know, like I said, it could always be worse.
- [19:58]
A
Yeah, well, it feels like, you know, you've been in the league now for eight seasons. You just finished that up. Everybody in the league knows. Everybody in the league knows who you are, knows how unguardable you can be at times. And it feels like now the rest of the basketball world is catching up. But I do want to take you back to 2018, where you were drafted second by the Indiana Fever after having a legendary career at Ohio State. For those that don't know, I mean, you finished your college career as number two in the NCAA scoring list. That put you behind Plum at the time. Since then, a couple people had caught up, Caitlin being one of them. So you sit at fourth. But you're also, when you left, you were also first in threes. I didn't know you sit at three at that now. Yeah, you were first in threes when you left, so you sit at three now. Long story short, you're an elite scorer. For those that don't know, I appreciate it. You've always been an elite story. So now I'M curious, when you get to the WNBA after being at V Ohio State University, what was the biggest adjustment for you offensively?
- [21:07]
C
I think the shift in speed. I was always had a decent speed, but I think when you play alongside other pros, there's a way of managing that and knowing how to, like, let your speed, you know, create what it needs to create in positive ways. And so that was an adjustment for me. Like, I wasn't always, like, I didn't handle my angles well. I was kind of, like, out of control. I had a lot of charges, and it was just a matter of, like, finding out, like, how I could be, you know, under control in a lot of positions. And I think I'm. It's crazy. I was just telling some of the young guys here, I was like, learning how to be a pro takes time, and I don't think people really recognize that. And I said it to say it was a lot I had to learn and go through to really be who I am. As far as being balanced on both ends of the floor, being able to play both ends of the floor, being able to shoot the ball consistently, and taking your field goal percentage, serious quality shots and all that, it matters to me. And I think you have to go through those lows. And, you know, this shift from Ohio State to being a pro was like. It was an adjustment.
- [22:12]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's actually funny. There's two directions that I want to go from here. I'm going to start with. I'm going to start with. You brought up field goal percentage and being, like, an efficient scorer. And it's interesting because I went and looked at your stats and, you know, your rookie year, you had like, a decent rookie year, right? Your percentages weren't. Weren't great. You were like 34 from the field, 33 from three, but you averaged, like 12 and a half points. You made all rookie team. Like, this is totally. You can tell. And I was in the league still when you were rookie. So I remember, like, you described yourself, like, pretty accurately. It's like you knew if you figured it out playing against you, it was gonna be a problem. But you were still figuring it out. Yeah, but then when you zoom out and you look at your whole career from, like, points per game and, like, your field goal percentage, you've kind of just. You've just like, steadily increased and steadily added and yeah, like, every player, you know, Maybe you shoot 40 this year and like, 38 the next year and then back up again. So you have some of those. But for the most part, you just were on this, like, steady increase. And I'm curious, like, how did you get better in this way while learning, while adding? Because a lot of times when you're learning and adding. Yeah, it can mean two steps back.
- [23:29]
C
It gets chaotic.
- [23:29]
A
Yeah, it gets chaotic before you go forward again. So how did you. How did you do both? How did you get better and stay consistent, like, consistently increasing?
- [23:40]
C
I think the biggest part of it for me was maintaining a sense of, like. Like, I had to know going in, too. Like, I knew, like, no one's gonna, like, give me anything. Like, I like. And it's not, like, a cliche. It's just, like, I literally, like, I knew it, like, at the time, like, Indiana had went through his law catch had left. They had, you know, started over, and then they brought, you know, myself in, Victoria in. So you kind of, like, I got new, like, at the way 6 and 26, and then, like, we were, like, 5 and, like, something. Then I was, like, on my third coach and, like, my mind, like, I'll be honest with you, Sue, I felt like my brain was starting to play tricks on me. Like, dang, Maybe this is like, you know, they be, like, the average year. Average couple years a person could play in the league. I'm like, wow. Like, you know, it just wasn't good. And I felt like. I just felt like I had to save myself. And I knew that, like, that mentality of just, like, standing in the gym and, like, staying, like, to my craft, like, it had to be the main focus and the only focus for me, because it's like, other than that, I feel like I wouldn't even be here.
- [24:42]
A
So you had to put. Even though it's a team game, it was like, you still had to make sure you were focusing on yourself. Which kind of brings me to the second, like, angle I want to take, which is the pace that you play with. I don't think this is something that people fully understand. Like, it's just getting talked about this season with you.
- [25:05]
C
Yeah.
- [25:06]
A
And this has been. You have been this. You have been this way.
- [25:09]
C
Thank you.
- [25:09]
A
You know, really since college. So when you think of your pace of play, is it something that you were just naturally born with? Is it something that you realize could be, like, a. Like a superpower and you've started to focus on it, and then I'm curious how you train it.
- [25:27]
C
Yeah.
- [25:28]
A
Like, when you're working out.
- [25:30]
C
I think to start, sue, when I was, like, 13, 14, I would go down. My dad was the head basketball coach. In inner city here in Cincinnati. And he had his own, like, way of, like, mentally breaking you down to build you up, but not in a bad way. And so, you know, I was learning how to lift tires and, like, you know, this small stuff. And I felt like my speed ended up growing early because my dad had put me in, like, uncomfortable situations. And so my dad started sending us to a speed training guy. He was a football player. Kid you not to this day. I go to him. I go to him three times a week. Like, I kid you not to this day. To this day. And people ask about my speed. And I think it's a matter of maintaining a sense of footwork and balance, but also power. And the people that I work with here, back at home, like, we take footwork serious from the standpoint of stamina, for one, being able to maintain a sense of conditioning and then allowing it to create angles for you on the basketball floor. And so I like to think that my footwork and using it in bursting speeds and breaking down speeds and picking speeds back up is, you know, how you gotta manage, like, your game control. And I felt like it was the best way for me to, like, maintain who I was. And I knew it was gonna be hard because that's not the kind of work, as you get older in your career, you wanna be doing speed training and agility and going through ladders. Like, you know, you get older, you kind of like. But I felt like it's the sacrifice that I'm willing to make to kind of be who I am.
- [26:53]
A
Yeah, no, I would say, I mean, as you get older, it's just those things get harder. Cause they're the start stop of it is, like, it can be hard on your body as you get older. But I would say to you, don't ever stop doing it. Like, don't ever take that part out. Like, I'm not in the category of you in terms of that, but those were drills that I had to continue to do, like, even into my 40s. Yeah. And now I want to know, like, were you doing. Are you doing, like, you're, like, doing the work of a. Like the footwork of a safety. The footwork of a running back. I would say more of a running. Even like a quarterback.
- [27:26]
C
I would say more of a running back from a standpoint of, like, my trainer, he would, like, you know, take, like, I don't know, just the cones itself with the circles and, you know, you put your feet in and out and stuff like that. And he would show me, we started icky shuffle football player. And he was a running back. So I was like, it was like almost like me assimilating, going through, you know, on the floor with him, assimilating, punching holes on the floor, punching holes on the field, like, you know, hitting gaps. And so I was starting, I would stop and I was, you know, it was a matter of changing speeds and balancing balance like the way a running back would. And after a while, he started incorporating the basketball. So he started telling me to bring my basketball with me. And so it would be the same footwork as a football player. But it was like, all right. He said, act like this is, you know, this, that tween crossing, like, and it was. And then I started translating the footwork that we did without basketball and start bringing the basketball into it. And then like from there it was just. We always stuck with it. So then he started, you know, we started learning how to do step backs in like a band. Step back in the band is like, it's hard. It's really, really hard. I don't know how I'm doing it, but, uh, it's, it's worth it because it's, it's, it's maintaining my balance, it's maintaining my power.
- [28:37]
A
Yeah, yeah. No, this is. I mean, now that I'm like thinking back to just like your highlights, the way you play. All I see now is a running back just like hitting gaps, seeing holes and like taking them literally. I mean, I've heard of football players do it. I've heard of football players doing ballet, but basketball players doing football. I kind of like this. You're about to start a trend.
- [28:57]
C
It's a rare one. I'll tell you how much it's rare.
- [29:00]
A
Oh, I like it.
- [29:00]
B
It's worth it.
- [29:01]
C
It's worth it though. It's worth it.
- [29:02]
A
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- [30:18]
C
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B
Prototype or a brand new product feature.
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- [31:04]
A
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- [31:45]
C
That's a good one. I think the biggest part that I know well for one, like the background of the team we had, you were put in a position to have to take a lot of risks and do a lot more. And it was like it was a shift in coaches and then systems changed and then you were still trying to find you. And so that was one part of it because on the basketball floor you got to learn how to make plays for yourself but for your team as well. And I think I had to learn that through those changes. And I think that there's a blur line because you don't want to lose you and not be confident, but you don't also want to not use the ones around you to create and make it easy. And I feel like my last couple years I've had a AB and a Kalen but Even before that, you know, I was fortunate enough for, like, a big T, and so people that can also create with you made me a better player. And I feel like the more you realize that you can play with other great people, the easier your game will flow or the. I don't know if that makes sense, but, like, I watch Shay, Gillis, Alexander, and Jalen. You know, even though Jaylin is who he is and Jalen knows Shay is who he is, it's like, you know, you can still kind of, you know, build around each other and kind of play through each other, if that makes sense.
- [32:58]
A
Oh, no, it makes total sense. I think a lot of, you know, people who like to play, you know, backseat gm, and they're like, oh, how come they didn't get this player? How come they didn't do that? Why aren't. Cause it's all about pairs. It's all about pairing, people making it, you know, compliment. And we're definitely gonna get into, like, Caitlin Aaliyah, when they joined the team, how that impacted you, especially Caitlin. Like, we're talking about you right now with, like, your pace, and now you get matched up with somebody who likes to play just as fast, who's obviously also an elite scorer. So we're definitely gonna get to that in a second. But before we do, I want to talk a little bit about, like. Well, actually, real quick, actually, I do have one quick question I want to give you. When you look around the league, who are some of the, like. Who are, like, your top five, just, like, bucket getters?
- [33:44]
C
Ooh, that's A.J. wilson for sure. I mean, her ability to shoot the ball as a big is just, you know, you don't have to find a lot of bigs to do that. And, you know, it's hard for Big to guard that. That's, you know, that's crazy. But I'll tell you that it's who's always been, you know, bucket getter, in my opinion, and, you know, she's at her lows and highs, but Brittany Sykes. Brittany Sykes can go get one. She can go get one. She can go get one.
- [34:16]
A
She's the type where, like, if she. She's going, you can't stop it. It's just a matter if she makes it or not.
- [34:22]
C
I feel the same way about Nafeesa Collier. Nafeesa has the best footwork that, like, it's simple, but it's lethal. And I love it because it's, like, it don't, like, you know, you can't bother her. Like, it's kind of like she gonna step through. So I'm like, that is crazy. Like, when you watch, it's like, a matter of, like, she waiting for you to, like, mess up so she can, like, get off what she need. And I think that's. That's special. Like, that's special. Not a lot of people can do that. I feel like Alicia Gray has a. Has a frame that makes her difficult to guard. And when she goes into her. A lot of her moves, it's like, you got to respect it because you either gonna get a foul or you gotta respect the fact that she got the bounce to get her shot off because she a bigger guard. And the way that she can score as a lefty. You know, being a lefty is like, I like it. It's like, you gotta respect it. You know, it's dope to see because it's like, she also a lefty, and it's like, dang, you know, when you see it from her, I know Bird's eye view is kind of like. It's cool. It's cool to see because she can go get it at any time, and she gonna get to the free throw line. You know, she got the ability to draw contact, which is dope. And then the last one I'll say is Kaliyah. Ka K can go get a bucket. Kyle can go get.
- [35:31]
A
Yeah, she can definitely go get a bucket.
- [35:33]
C
Like, she can go get. She can go get one easy. From a guard perspective, in my opinion.
- [35:38]
A
I know it's interesting who you pick. You picked two post players, which I agree.
- [35:42]
C
They.
- [35:43]
A
I feel like a lot of times I ask this question, and people go guard heavy. So I like that you pick two post players, and then you kind of pick three guards who in different ways, have something about them that when they want to get to the rim.
- [35:57]
C
There'S.
- [35:58]
A
Really nothing you can do about it. There's really nothing you can do about it. They're going to either run right over.
- [36:02]
C
You, or you got to let it go.
- [36:03]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I hear you on that. I hear you on that. Okay, again, like, back to, like, your early days, Indiana. How do you think your leadership has developed? And were there, you know, any really anybody. Anybody in the organization, teammates, people you learned from that helped you figure out who you were eventually gonna be as a leader?
- [36:26]
C
It's crazy you say that. I think my pivot moment for leadership was when we were. I don't know if you remember this, but remember we was playing you guys, and we was playing. Our games are being played in Like a barn. Like, what is that?
- [36:40]
A
Do I remember the barn? I'll never forget it. Yo, that was such a bad.
- [36:47]
C
I was like, I cannot believe this is happening. Like, with the cow manure on the side.
- [36:52]
A
Oh, it smelled like. It smelled like actual shit, because that's what it was. Oh, the barn. What was it?
- [36:59]
C
Like a. I think it was the state fairground.
- [37:01]
A
For, like, fair. Yeah, the state fair.
- [37:03]
C
State fairgrounds. But at that time, we had.
- [37:05]
A
Oh, my God.
- [37:06]
C
Yeah, at that time, we had shifted coaches, and the coaches that we had shifted from was Marianne Stanley to Carlos Knox, different styles, and we knew that the season was gonna be what it was gonna be at that point. And the one thing I could appreciate about Carlos Knox was that he put me in a position to lead of, like, breaking barriers and kind of, like, opening up who I am, being able to kind of, like, play the game and be a Hooper. And so he said, in order for you and these people to, like, you know, build around you, you gotta be you. And he had put me in a position to challenge. Challenge myself. And he said, when you make plays, make plays with power, make every rep, like, make it. And so Carlos Knox was the one that kind of put. Because he was a Hooper, he had his own career, too. And so I learned a lot from him. And that was, like, the start of it. Even though, like, we weren't winning, I was like. I was learning how to be a pro. I was like, ah, I see what he's saying. And so the more and more we talked and the more and more we trained outside of, like, our games, because we didn't make the playoffs. We weren't making the playoffs. And so we were trained on the side. And I started learning how to be a guard and, you know, come off pin downs and know what angles to hit. And so that started to further my game. So then from there, I start bringing the ones around me with me. And so I think that's my biggest maturation now is like, if I go, I'm going to ask Lex if she want to go. If I, you know, I want to bring. You know, I want us all to do it together, Right?
- [38:32]
A
Oh, I love that. Because that's. You know, a lot of people, when they talk about leadership, it'll be like the vocal leader leading by example. But I've actually never heard anybody talk about it in a way that you're talking about it, which is just like, quite literally bringing people along with you.
- [38:45]
C
Yeah, let's just do it together.
- [38:45]
A
I learned how to do this. Let Me show you how to write? Yeah, I really like that. And that's, like, specific to you? Because the most important part about leadership is it. Is it being authentic?
- [38:55]
C
Yes. They gotta be. And I feel like a lot of people, like, Sue, I ain't the one of the ones. And you kind of know me when I was learning from you at usa. Like, I'm not a talker. So it's like the best I can do is just give you my best physically and then bring you along and hope that we can all do it together. It's like. Cause I can't talk my way through nothing. Like, I just never been the type. And so a lot of times that leadership style never worked for me.
- [39:19]
A
Yeah, no, for sure. So wait, when you think about, like, your team in the last couple years, right, we'll say the obvious. Caitlin joins the team. A lot more eyeballs, a lot more scrutiny, a lot of conversation about, like, what it's like for you guys in your locker room. So what do you think? Or do you feel like people sometimes just like, overlook your leadership specifically and your impact on the team from like a chemistry standpoint? Because there's just so many narratives. So, like, do you think people are overlooking that?
- [39:53]
C
I think that the. In a short year, I think naturally, yes, because of this society, the social media, how bad, you know, people take the social media and abuse it for the. In the wrong. In the wrong realm of light. And so I think that's one part of it. But I also think that it was an adjustment, adjustment period. And I. I talked to, you know, the Fever organization about this. It's like, I think it was an adjustment period that we all should have adjusted to throughout the course of the organization. I think that that was big for everybody. Pacers, Entertainment, people organization. I felt like at that time there was a lot of role playing that had to be situated. I feel like when something that big or someone that big who has that much impact comes into something, there are a lot of adjustments that people have to make on the floor, off the floor, in the locker room, in the training room. Just a lot of stuff is a lot of moving parts. And I think the biggest part that I expected about Caitlyn is that she never was bigger than a program. I can. I don't know if that makes sense, but, like, it wasn't like, she wasn't trying to take over. You know, it wasn't. I don't know how to explain that. You know what I'm trying to say, though?
- [41:08]
A
Yeah, no, I know what you're trying to say. It's like she knows who she is. She comes in, she's gonna obviously do her part. Cause that's what being a professional athlete is. But with the understanding of fitting into a team, making sure we fit, making sure we have chemistry. So it's never bigger than, like, the group.
- [41:23]
C
Yeah. It's like she wasn't trying to be bigger than everybody. Like, within our locker room. She wasn't trying to be bigger than anyone else. And I think the way that her style of play, it ended up complimenting me. It ended up complimenting. And so, like, the one thing I love about Caitlin, too, is that we all love basketball the same way. We all have our different styles, a way of playing it. But the passion for it with Kaitlyn, when she didn't play comprith and when she did play remained the same. And, like, I respected that by her because it could have easily not been that way. You know, you have people that come in and not want to do or buy in once it's not, you know, or once it don't go their way, or once unfortunate things happen and you can't play and injury happens and you're not getting your body the way you want to. And so I can respect the fact that she kept the program to program and she didn't let her passion for a waiver because she ended up pouring in more than she thought. And it was dope because she could have easily not been that person.
- [42:18]
A
Right, right, right. Yeah, I hear you. Yeah. I would build on what I was saying and add, from what I'm hearing from you is like, she was like, that way in the locker room too.
- [42:25]
C
Yes, yes. Like, it was like, she wasn't trying to, like, you know, you could easily be a certain way. And her thing was just like, like giving her her best. Like, she gave us, like, her best when she was in the locker room.
- [42:40]
A
Yeah. The time I've spent with Caitlyn, like, she definitely has, like, oh, you're like my little sister.
- [42:44]
C
Yes.
- [42:45]
A
Cause she likes to, like, you know, talk about basketball and kind of troll a little bit. Exactly.
- [42:50]
C
You talk about a kid in the candy store. That's Caitlyn.
- [42:54]
A
Yep.
- [42:54]
C
Tutu. She is, but in a good way. She just. She's just a. She's a. She's a live light. Um, and she, she. Her personality shows and her game, and it's. It's dope for her.
- [43:05]
A
Well, we've kind of naturally arrived, like, arrived on, like, 2023, 2024, I think, obviously a turning point for the franchise, back to back number one picks. And you actually mentioned it. I was gonna mention it too. Like you've had. So you had four coaches in seven seasons because there was a scenario where you mentioned Carlos took over but for Marianne and then once Stephanie comes, that's five coaches in eight seasons. So that's just like a lot of change. A lot of. I mean there's always like some uncertainty in it. Every train, every training camp is like brand new. So it's a lot. But now I'm talking about like a.
- [43:41]
C
Full roster training camp.
- [43:43]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:45]
C
You know those training camps, it's totally different every year. You know the one that's like compact and the one that's, you know.
- [43:52]
A
I know. So yeah. So in 2023 you get AB. So real quick, what did you see in AB like from day one, how have you seen her grow?
- [44:03]
C
Ultimate pro? Like I'm like I used to, I used to joke with him, like, how are you this mature? Like you still wet behind the ear. How you just mature, ready to like rock like this. Like her professionalism and who she is and the way y' all see AB is so consistent. Like she is like, like obviously we all have our own. Like being on time is always for everybody. But like you could just see in her schedule, her everything, how she moved. She was a pro coming in the door. And then on top of that, she's also like a teddy bear type of kid. You know, her personality and who she was. It's like we align and our energy tie was locked in early because you know, God driven, you know, tight knitted family. And so my dad recruited her. Actually my dad was at Ohio State and he recruited and I got a chance to meet her family prior to. And so we had already had a former bond but the moment that we played with each other, so the rest is history really.
- [45:00]
A
It was your first all star.
- [45:02]
C
Yeah.
- [45:04]
A
And I 2023 is your first all star.
- [45:05]
C
You know I'm here because of you. Right. I love that. That's good though. So it goes back through to what I was saying about being able to make yourself great because other great people, you know, other great players and who AB is and her ability to play the game. We compliment each other in different ways. And I think the best part about it in my opinion is that, you know, assuming like things go well and we could play together again is like we have so many more doors to open. I think that she's still much younger and I think I can still compliment her in different ways. Assuming you know, the way life happens in the future. But, yes, it's like we've always complimented each other.
- [45:45]
A
Yeah. I mean, you already talked a little bit about just like, Caitlin, how she was coming in also. So now I want you to talk about, like, the three of you, and how do you compliment each other?
- [45:54]
C
I think the best part about it is that our pace, we are aligned on pace, and that is a big part of the game. When it's bad, have a sense of pace. Still. When it's horrible, have a sense of pace. When it's great, keep the pace going. And Caitlyn plays in a way, is that you don't. We don't have time to dwell. And it start. I start. I think I started to have a better shot efficiency because I started not thinking about it if I missed because the way Kaitlyn was playing and the way AB Wanted to play, like, let's go. And I had. That had always been how I played. And I'm like, I felt like a kid in the candy storm. Like, ooh, I'm back with people that want to play fast. And it just. The pace alone was just like our thing. And then from there, our individual games, obviously, me being able to draw and, you know, me being able to cut and Caitlyn seeing me, her ability to be able to pass. Ability to be able to pass, which is underrated. And people don't talk about. We just had different compliments of each other. That worked out.
- [46:55]
A
Yeah. No, I mean, it got you. You know, you hadn't been to the playoffs, so it got you to the playoffs in 2024. It got you another all star nod in 2024. So, yeah, you could see it, right? Like, outside looking in. For me, it's like I can see what's being built. I can see the chemistry. And then the off season comes, you guys go out in free agency, you get even more talent, you have a coaching change. So now Steph White has joined, who's like, this proven vet for lack of a better coach. Yo, you guys brought back the Stranger things jerseys for 2025. You're hosting the All Star Game in Indiana. Like, stars are aligning. By the way, you were on that. You were on that Good Morning America set.
- [47:39]
C
Yes.
- [47:40]
A
When Sid Colson said that about Rosa.
- [47:44]
C
That was a great moment for me. I was.
- [47:46]
A
Yo, I was crying. Honestly, the best part is when Robin Roberts actually let me just set the stage really fast. So you guys are on Good Morning America. Robin Roberts is interviewing you. Aaliyah, Caitlyn, Sid Coulson, they interview a cute little girl in the audience who's got her basketball jersey on, clearly a player. And she says her school name is Rosa Parks or the team name, whatever. And she's like, yeah, I play for Rosa Parks. And Sid Colson is just like, directly. And my favorite part is all your reactions. But then Robin Roberts being like, now, Sid, Sid, we're not doing that, Sid. But you got to experience that. Anyways, like I was saying, it was.
- [48:27]
C
That was one of the best moments ever, by the way.
- [48:30]
A
Yeah, I know. You got your locker room looks fun.
- [48:32]
C
Yeah, it's fun.
- [48:33]
A
But the stars are, like, aligning for you guys. So how excited are you as you're entering the 2025 season? Like, what are your hopes or expectations? What are your goals?
- [48:43]
C
We knew that we were going like, the people that, when Steph was hired, took the responsive, you know, took on the bigger responsibility of calling. When I was in China, took on a responsibility of me getting to know her. Her getting to know me. And then when I got back and I left China, going up to Indy and being able to work with Kaylyn, being able to work with, you know, A.B. when she was there. And so when we got in the market together, our chemistry was already starting to build. When you train with somebody and you work with them and you get to see everybody flow, you get to see everybody. You get to see the work ethic, you get to see the passion in it. We had already started there. I think it was just unfortunate that when the season started, sue, that Kalen got hurt. Cause I think you get to see how special us three are together. And that part sucked. And I think that going through it and seeing Soph come in and then seeing Sid come in and then seeing the different Bri Turner was big for us. And a lot of people don't talk about Bree Turner seeing those kind of people come in. She was a winner. People don't talk about how she's won. She's won before and she's seen it. And so seeing those guys come in, kind of. We all complimented each other in small but big ways because I think that's how we got to the playoffs and we maintained through the playoffs.
- [49:57]
A
Yeah, I mean, when I think about your season, obviously what stands out is the injuries. You guys just. It was like, at one point, it was like a joke. It was like. Like all you could do was probably laugh and be like, oh, are you like, seriously again? Somebody goes out for a season ending injury again. But then you guys do roll up and win. The commissioner Cup. This was before some of the. I think Sophie was still playing, maybe, but. So this is before some of the injuries. But you guys do win Commissioner cup, what did that do for the group? Confidence.
- [50:30]
C
Ooh. It's so crazy, because the social media world and the narrative is that certain people doing certain things to win Commissioner cup is the way we want it, and I think it didn't happen that way for us. The way we won Commissioner cup was Natasha Howard led us, for one. Natasha Howard, who she was. She led us. She was who she was. And so the vet and her, she started bringing us along. I wasn't shooting well. I don't know how well ab or was or was not shooting, but I think our ability to kind of keep going and keep grinding and keep staying in it and watching Tosh kind of like keep pulling us. And then when Sid came on the floor and when Eric came on the floor, we kept up with a pace, and so we started to compliment each other at such a pivotal time. And I think that at that time, it was a matter of, you know, life or death or who gonna quit and who gon keep going. I think that our group just stayed together. It tightened us in a different way.
- [51:27]
A
It definitely did. You could tell it was also, you know, you guys went on IG live after the game, and, like, we're doing all your, you know, but you could see. You got a glimpse into, like, what the vi. No, that's not embarrassing. We got a glimpse into what the vibes were like. Cause it was. It was a tough season. You guys do end up finishing sixth. So you make the playoffs. This matches you up with Atlanta before we get into, like, the playoff run.
- [51:51]
C
Yeah.
- [51:51]
A
You've already brought up, you know, some of your teammates, so, you know, listen, we could sit here and talk about, you know, Aaliyah Boston All Star. We could talk about her defense on Asia Wilson. These. Some of these things are obvious. I want to hear more about. Like, let's start with Lexi Hall. What did Lexi hall bring to your team in this, especially in this playoff run? Right. So now the one thing about the playoffs is your. Your roster is now set.
- [52:15]
C
Yeah.
- [52:16]
A
Until you go down in Game 5. You guys have, like, your core group is now here.
- [52:19]
C
Yeah.
- [52:20]
A
So as you're approaching this, like, tell me about Lexi. What did she bring?
- [52:24]
C
This episode is brought to you by White Claw Surge.
- [52:26]
A
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C
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A
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Unleash White Claw Surge.
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A
Please drink responsibly. Hard seltzer with flavors. 8% alcohol by volume. White cloth seltzer works, Chicago, Illinois. It's today explained from Vox. Maybe you've heard about the recent Republican Nazi scandal. There is a group text chain out there from Trump's pick to lead the.
- [53:04]
C
Office of Special Counsel.
- [53:06]
A
And he texted, according to Politico, that.
- [53:08]
C
He has a Nazi streak. He made these remarks in a chain with a half a dozen Republican operatives and influencers.
- [53:16]
A
Oh, gosh, no, not that one.
- [53:17]
C
With regard to the swastika thing, this happened last night.
- [53:20]
A
A Republican congressman, allegedly one of his.
- [53:23]
B
Staffers had something in the background or.
- [53:25]
C
Something in a zoom.
- [53:26]
B
That's what hurts.
- [53:26]
C
No, not that one either.
- [53:27]
A
The young Republicans in the I love Hitler in the group chat. It's awful. It's revolting. It's disgusting, it's obnoxious.
- [53:35]
C
It's also the third time in like.
- [53:37]
A
Seven days do the Republicans have a Nazi problem. Today explained every weekday, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone, this is Kara Swisher. This week on my podcast, on with Kara Swisher, I interview Bernie Sanders. The senator from Vermont is fiery and pugnacious, just like you'd expect. And we talk about everything from his fight against Trumpism to tech billionaires that shut down artificial intelligence and the future of the progressive populist movement. Have a listen.
- [54:09]
B
I think Trump has his mental issues.
- [54:12]
C
I think he's unstable. I think his agenda for America is horrific. But he understands the system is broken. And what did the Democratic establishment says? Well, you know, I think if you make $48,392, we will be able to provide you with a program that gets you 14% help on your health care.
- [54:31]
B
That's not what the American people want to hear. So Trump is tough.
- [54:35]
C
Democrats got to be tough, too.
- [54:37]
B
They got to take on the goddamn oligarchy.
- [54:39]
C
That's what they got to do.
- [54:40]
A
The full conversation is now out. So go listen to on with Kara Swisher wherever you get your podcasts.
- [54:48]
C
Sue. It's like, for one, talk about great, like a great person, a great woman, a great, like just a good teammate. You talking about go through a wall? It don't matter what wall, too. It could be plastic, concrete, like Lexi gonna go through it for you and with you as long as, you know, everybody's on the same page. And I respect that about her and I Think talking about playoffs and what she brought to the floor was that getting every loose ball, rebounding the ball so to create extra possessions, taking on tasks of defending bigger, stronger players like Jackie Young and being able to defend and then, you know, sacrificial lamb in some situations because she end up getting foul trouble. And she had a different respect for the game because she was okay with playing her role and what she brought to the table. And she did it like, she did it so gracefully because, you know, everybody get a position to be able to have to do more. And she still stayed within the realm of her role. And I thought that part was dope because her sacrificing her body literally a lot was like, you know, you just have a different respect for players like that, like pros like that, because no one, not a lot of people is going to willing to take that sacrifice. And knowing that that's the role that she played on our team was like, it was perfect.
- [56:00]
A
Yeah. And you're not going to get a lot of the credit you deserve. And I totally agree with you. She really set the tone for you guys, especially defensively, but then also, you know, with the hustle plays with the offensive rebounds, she really set a tone. Now, I want you to talk about, like, the group of vets that you guys had. You already mentioned, you know, Natasha Howard, she came on the show earlier in the year. You mentioned Breezy, you know, another vet presence. But you guys had to sign. You had to sign Shay Petty, Odyssey Sims, Ariel Powers. How would you, when you look at those vets and their impact, how would you define, like, professionalism in what they brought?
- [56:34]
C
Oh, it was dope. Like, it was dope from a professionalism standpoint. Everyone's built there. Like, in our hoop world, narratives are always built about people and what they say or what they don't say. And at a time like that, you didn't want that to be the reason why we didn't get to the playoffs. And the one thing that I appreciated about Ariel O and Shay was that whatever program that we, you know, that they saw that we had, they didn't interrupt it, you know, they kind of just complimented it. Ariel's, you know, ability to have energy in a room and kind of in practice was like, it was a small game changer for us. And then, oh, ability to be another creator and being able to, like, you know, draw and being able to, like, kind of be a great guard and compliment myself, you know, Porian and then Shay being able to shoot the ball and kind of see the floor as an older pg, but from a, you know, mental standpoint was like, small game changes, and it was dope because it could have not been that way.
- [57:32]
A
Yeah. And they were also. I feel like what I saw is they were also just, like, winners. Like, they've known how to win. You know, Shay's been to the finals.
- [57:41]
C
Especially in pivotal moments, like, big moments, you could see, like, the preparedness that they wanted to have. Shay wanted to have with her. Like, just knowing the playbook and just knowing what, you know, just, like, you could see her, like, she would ask, like, all right, so what we doing on this and that? And, like, you could just see her wheels turning to want to be the best. And then, oh, you know, as a guard who's like, you know, could be able to kind of score at a high level, too. It's like, we complimented each other so well. And so when she made plays for me and vice versa, it added to our offense.
- [58:13]
A
Yeah, yeah. They obviously. I mean, it felt seamless. They had big play after big play. When you guys needed was also, like, you know, it was really cool to see was, you know, even the players who weren't playing, the ones in street clothes, for lack of a better, all very connected, all very engaged. When I looked at your team in the run, you guys just had this identity about you. It was like the classic, you know, like, never say die. The minute you thought you guys were cooked, it was like, out of nowhere. You'd go on, like, a 120 run and you're right back in it. So I'm curious, because that's. You know, it started against Atlanta. Here's a team that, you know, I think the last time you played them in the regular season was, like, July. So now you're playing them in September. You're a totally different team. But you lose game one, it didn't look, like, great. It didn't look great. But then you win the next two, you have to go on the road, like, you win the next two, and I feel like that's when this identity started to form itself. You guys already had it. You've already touched on it. But winning that series, what did it do for your confidence? Because I'll be honest, I think if people were betting their money before the Vegas Series, it was probably like, oh, Vegas, probably gonna win this. But you guys took them to the very end, and I feel like the Atlanta series and the confidence you got there may have helped in that. So is that I accurate?
- [59:36]
C
I think that's very accurate. I think you have to know. You have to know going in. So we were kind of outnumbered with, like, knowing what Biggs is going to play. You gotta think Tasha's like a true 4 and AB or true 5, but it's not too many abs. And then you have a different, you know, a different postgame. And Demir is Dantes. And, you know, Dee Dee goes out, you know, can't, you know, bring what she can bring with Suk. And so we were kind of like, already, like, ah, this only gonna go a lot of ways. And we knew that at the time. Breonna Jones, you know, phenomenal post player. You know, with her post presence and then having BG and not knowing, you know, based on where he put her in at, how can we guard, you know, all of this on top of two great guards on a perimeter, and then you got a speedy Gonzalez and Jordan Canada. So it's like, how this gonna work? And so, you know, when we were able to kind of, like, do our best to defend them from a standpoint of, like, making it as tough as possible because they're great players, you know, you know, they gonna make tough plays. And so the best that you can do is give your best. And I felt like our group did that. And I didn't think that. I think that we all knew that it was gonna be hard. We accepted that it was gonna be hard. And I think that, you know, it was a matter of just, like you said, not giving up and being that, like, we can't die, like, having that mentality because we all just aligned at the same level. We was like, this shit's not gonna be easy.
- [60:54]
A
Where does it come from, though? Yeah, where does it come from, though? And I also wanna segue into Steph White a little bit and just, like, her effectiveness as a leader, a communicator, like, what. How is she getting you through these moments? And what was her impact overall? I mean, on the team, but really on this playoff run? Ooh.
- [61:12]
C
Steph was big. Because I think for me, we talked about having five coaches, eight years. This was one of the first times in my career that I felt like I felt safe through my coach. Like, I felt.
- [61:27]
A
That's big.
- [61:28]
C
Like, I felt. How can I describe it? Like, I felt I could be me and not be overly criticized about being me, but still help me be a better me. I just think that she didn't take away confidence. She instead poured it into us. Like, it was a time where Lexi felt like she wasn't shooting well, and I could, like, see Steph Talking to Lexi and like, like her ability to keep telling people to shoot the ball and really mean it was like, it's dope because it's like you get that you get a coach or a leader that like, believes in your abilities and knowing that whatever system she did want for us, she knew that we could do it, you know? And now whatever system that AK&BJ and Karima have for us, it was like a matter of like, she trusted us to do it. And that was big for us.
- [62:19]
A
Yeah, that is big. Well, yeah, like I said, this identity you guys formed, we saw it again versus the Aces. I think that series, like pound for pound, it gave you as a fan, it gave you everything you would ever want. Probably the best series of the playoffs, if I'm being honest. When you look at save game five for a second, but when you look at the four games leading up, how would you describe playing in it?
- [62:45]
C
Ooh, like, I was telling my brother this, I was telling my twin sister. I was like, bro, you know how when you used to watch LeBron like go and get off the backboard, like, what possess him to make a play like that in the playoffs? It's like there's something about the playoffs too that like, everything is just like it. The lock in is like you gotta lock in like 10 times more. Like your detail matter because you have to play them over and over and over again. And so habits are picked up, repetition in certain spots, plays are busted open. And so there's a different level of work that has to be maintained. And trusting your instincts as a basketball player too, because after a while it's just your habits as a player and making sure it just aligned with the rest of your teammates. But I think so it was a game changer for me because I learned so much here. Like the confidence that you need to maintain in a playoff run, how, when it go bad, how to come back up. Because, you know, I think game three, I shot horrible. I was like eight for 26 or 27. I'm like, dang, this is hard. And so, you know, you like, it's life or death game for it. And so it's just a mindset. I think the mindset, um, it had, it put me in a, in a different realm of growth. Um, I felt like I was growing.
- [64:07]
A
What, when you think about the series, was there anything from an adjustment standpoint that you could be like, oh, when I changed this.
- [64:16]
C
So I feel like when we first played them, ballstream was one way, like the first game, it was one Way it was. It was a certain way. And then they made an adjustment and start switching way more. And I think for me, I think the old me would have been like, I'm just not going. I'm not going to try. I'm going to try something else. I'm going to be a little bit more timid. But I think the me that I was able to display, I was okay with taking risks that going at a person like Aja Wilson, dominant, big, defensive. I'm going to block shots. And I felt like it was going to be risks that I was going to have to take and not waiver from to be who I am and for what my team needed. Now, that was a blurred line because you ain't want to go in there and make tough shots every time or have, you know, messed up the team camaraderie. And so, you know, that was an adjustment for me, like, seeing what's there and seeing what's not. But I knew I had to take a risk off from game one and then the rest of the series based on the bar screen work, because Asia is a big presence and her length is, like, dominant, and you have to be able to make simple but right plays, but also be aggressive to kind of, like, stay in it. And so that was big for me.
- [65:24]
A
Yeah, no, that's no small thing. That's no small thing. Cause I think you're right. I think a lot of players, all of us, you know, there's a tendency that if something's working, you want to either, like, keep going to it, but if they change it up, it can get frustrating. It can get you off your game.
- [65:40]
C
You definitely don't, you know?
- [65:42]
A
Yeah, I know all too well. So. So as you're going into game five, if we can actually focus on what ended up happening with your cramps and your injury. By the way, have you ever watched the documentary on the Biggest Loser? That TV show?
- [66:00]
C
No. What is that?
- [66:01]
A
Oh, so the Biggest Loser was that TV show where it was about weight loss and it was a competition. I watched the documentary recently, and honestly, when your injury came out and I saw that term, I was like, wait a minute. That sounds familiar. Somebody on the Biggest Loser had the same thing you had. She almost died. So I knew immediately. Because of the Biggest Loser, I was like, oh, this shit is serious. But did you have any. And based on the knowledge that I gained from watching that documentary, did you have any. Like, you're going into game five, is there any inclination that something is off about, like, how you're feeling I kid you not.
- [66:41]
C
So I like that. Also, my mom was playing tricks on me when I got hurt because I'm like, what did I do wrong? You know? And I kid you not, sue, when we, like, kind of got to game five and, you know, we, you know, indeed we did, the preparation was the same as it's always been. You know, you do this, you know, going to sleep, going a little sleep thing. What's that? The. What is that thing called?
- [67:05]
A
Hyperbaric. Hyperbaric chamber.
- [67:07]
C
That little chain hyperbaric thing. So we did that. You know, you do everything that you do to prepare for a game. Ice tail, whatever you do that you normally do. Like, I felt like I did. I felt like the hydration was there. I didn't feel like, you know, overly out of the way, like out of it. Like, I'm like, I'm prepared for game five. And so going throughout the course of the third quarter, I felt like my legs started having a little jello feeling to it. But I'm like, ah, you know, that's norm. What's game five? You know, we here, we just got done playing a day ago, you know, so I'm like, no. But then I start to feel like my muscles, you know, do different things that I had never felt before. And then I was like, dang, something happening. And so when I saw the ref and I stopped, my body stopped. I was like, we gotta stop. That's how I knew. I'm like, yeah, this is different than anything I've ever felt.
- [67:51]
A
God, I just can't imagine. I mean, it's hard to shift back to basketball. But I am just curious.
- [67:57]
C
Yeah.
- [67:58]
A
What do you think happens? What do you think happens if you don't get hurt? I know it's a big what if? Because it's like, you could win, you could lose. It could be this, it could be that. But I have to say, it was starting to feel like you guys were destined to get to the finals. How does that sit with you?
- [68:17]
C
I think when I was telling you, but when we first started talking about how to hurt, I felt it for a good two weeks because I felt like that was a moment for our group. I think that was the time, say, I don't get hurt. And the way the game had went, Sue, I had just hit a three. So I'm like, ah, you know, the game I had, you know, you know, the game was already like. Like this. You know, you had to get a little confidence. I'm like, ah, okay. We had a little something.
- [68:43]
A
And so, like, the Tide was turning in that game for sure. The momentum was shifting.
- [68:48]
C
And then, like, AB gets the foul, and then I'm like, wow. But say that don't happen. I say that to say, like, I feel like, where we were and what we were doing and the path we were taking and the way o start to play in a way, like, Tash started to rebound a little bit more. I was like, if this gonna be a time, this is gonna be our time. And I felt. Me personally, I was like, damn. Like, I ain't gonna say God, sue, but I'm be like, why didn't the moment happen? You know, like, that's how I felt. Like, I felt like. And I think I cried about that more than anything because I felt like for, like, the first or for, like, the first or two times in my life, I felt like I was prepared for the moment. Like, I always felt like if the moment was gonna happen, like, I was gonna give my best and live with my best based on my preparation. And I was like, wow. Maybe, like, you know, the spiritual or whatever, the guy, like, maybe he didn't want this moment for me. And so my mind started to play tricks on me for a while.
- [69:47]
A
Yeah. I mean, I don't even know what the advice is, other than, you can't. That's not how it works, I don't think.
- [69:56]
C
No, I appreciate that. I know.
- [69:58]
A
Yeah. I think you can't be hard on yourself, as a. Guess what I'm saying? Like, I don't think it's any. What I'm trying to say is it's nothing you did or didn't do.
- [70:04]
C
Yeah. Thank you.
- [70:06]
A
And this is just like. This is the, you know, the tough part about sports. All the people who listen to this podcast know I'm a big believer that you kind of have to go through the mud to get to something great.
- [70:20]
C
Get your back dirty.
- [70:21]
A
Yep.
- [70:21]
C
The back has to get dirty a little bit. Yeah.
- [70:24]
A
But I know for you, you know, to not make the playoffs for so long, you make the playoffs in 20, 24, and then you have this run. I know that the taste is there. So actually, what is the positive takeaway from this? Right. The playoff run, how you did it, the way you guys all fought through so much, to be so close to the finals, does that feel like. What is the feeling of accomplishment? There's.
- [70:50]
C
Oh, I think the biggest takeaway was that we were like, no matter. And I said, it's. With no disrespect to any of the other teams.
- [71:00]
A
Of course not.
- [71:02]
C
I like to think that our group, we were the standard of not giving up. And I think we displayed literally the takeaway is that no matter what happened, no matter what, we didn't disrespect the game as a group. Like, we didn't take it for granted as a group and we all loved it the same way. And I think those three things compiled together was like, that is not giving up. That's just giving your best. Like, if you gonna die on your sword. I think we were the group to show and display. Like, you know, we were like, not that movie story, but in a lot of ways a movie story. Because it was like we could have very easy. We could have tucked our tails too. Like, it was a lot of situations where, you know, you could have said a lot of reasons pulled apart, you had a light, you had a lot of excuses to make and let them be valid excuses. And I think for one, I didn't at the time in my life and where I am, I couldn't live like that. And the best part about it was that I had teammates who didn't want to give in. And I think together we just kind of like, we was like, if we gonna darn our sword, it's the way we gotta do it. We all, we got.
- [72:10]
A
We all, we need the bright side. The thing I think that, you know, even though, by the way, I would be just like, you sit in the chair you're sitting in right now, I'd be like, why'd that happen? What did I do wrong? I can't believe this. It'd be a lot of that also. But then at some point you will come around and you'll realize going through this experience now, you know, you know exactly what you're made of. You know exactly what your teammates are made of. And you're gonna take that with you into future years. I am real curious though. Like, how did you do against Phoenix this year? Did you guys do all right? It was like a good matchup. Like, how would that match up have been?
- [72:42]
C
Me, Me individually, I don't think I did that, girl. I maybe had one game, good game out of three or four, if I'm honest too. But I think as a group, we beat them. We beat them once at home and they had us. The rest. The rest, yeah.
- [72:54]
A
Okay. Just curious.
- [72:54]
C
It would have been a good series though, I guess. Really?
- [72:57]
A
But it's the finals.
- [72:58]
C
Yeah, they was at's tough, so it's like that would have been a big adjustment for us to like, you know, get acclimated to for A series?
- [73:05]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, so now, you know. I know you're planning to play in unrivaled. I know you're also just focused on getting healthy. So I imagine that's what, like, the short term is. But if we could. If we could look ahead to. You've already brought up some free agency comments here and there. If we could look ahead to this free agency and for, like, a second, right, like, you've been in Indiana for eight seasons. You've called it home before. You tried to test free agency last year. They quick record you. And we don't know what the new cba, like, what the numbers are gonna be, what the core rules are gonna be like. We don't know any of that. So that's obviously pending. But is there any part of you? Cause I totally hear both things exist, right? Like, you love playing with this core group. And just for those that don't know Indiana, you are uniquely positioned in this free agency because two of your big three, you being the third, obviously, is they're rookie. They're on their rookie deal. So they're signed, they're locked and loaded. You know what you're getting. And that makes Indiana. That makes the fever different from other teams. So is there any feeling to try and test out free agency the way you had felt it last year?
- [74:26]
C
I think, yes. The obvious, the shorting is like, the reality of it is, yes, from a standpoint of, like, you know, life is different when family dynamic changes. You know, you gotta look, you know, your family and who you are and what was built around you is important. And so that's important for me, I would say. And I think that that always has to be first and foremost important for me when I think about free agency. But on the flip side of things, of knowing what Indiana means to me, it's like, it's paramount. It's huge. I think it's so many what ifs right now, sue, with the CBA and how life is shuffling a deck. It's like you just don't know. It's a lot of what is. But I like to think that in the right realm of work, I cannot not think about Indiana, you know? Yeah, of course I cannot not think about Indiana. And on the other side of things, like, I gotta make sure I'm put in a position to, you know, I'm put in to take care of my family or be there for my family. I also know that, you know, this is for my family as well. So it's a combination of both But I think in both realms of life, I get to choose based on where I'm valued, and hopefully whenever, whoever or whatever I talk to, I want to feel value and let it all flow from there.
- [75:40]
A
Yeah, I mean, like you said, CBA isn't done so many question marks, but obviously, I'd imagine it's like, still things you need to think about. So before I let you go, when you think back on, you know, it could really be at any point in your career. But when you think back on your career, like, what are you most proud of?
- [76:01]
C
Yeah, so far, I think the part I'm most proud of so far, I would say, sue, is like. And we've talked about it here and there already. It's just a matter of, like, not letting all the. Everything that we all go through every day be an excuse not to give my best. I feel like that's important. That's big. Not just hoop, but life in general. And I feel like I'm most proud of the fact that folding is real. Like, not wanting to do and not wanting to be around and not wanting to keep going. Like, that's real. We get to see it every day. And I think that I'm humbled that I've grow. Grow a sense of survival in my everyday life to not let my mind and my work get there. Like, you know, I have to keep, you know, obviously a faith part, but, like, I'm. I'm grateful and I'm glad for myself in my eight years that based on everything I have been through, that I haven't folded from a standpoint of, like, not wanting to keep going. And, like, that's a big deal.
- [77:08]
A
Yeah. Never lose that. That's valuable.
- [77:10]
C
Thank you. Thank you.
- [77:13]
A
I want to wish you, like, the absolute best in.
- [77:16]
C
Thank you.
- [77:16]
B
Sweet.
- [77:16]
A
Getting healthy. Are you, like, on the court right now playing, or is this still.
- [77:20]
C
Nah, you know how it is. You know how, you know, activation lifting, you know, conditioning, and then, you know, get on the court for, like, shot type stuff.
- [77:26]
A
But I think in terms of your cramping and stuff, like, we're good. I passed that part.
- [77:32]
C
Yeah, I passed that part. I'm, like, three weeks removed from that now, which is good for me because I was on IV for a while, and that part sucked. But getting back to my ways, I'm passing out when I'm working out, But I'm getting there, Sue. I'm getting there.
- [77:46]
A
I know. It's always, like, the work it takes to get in shape, and then you play the season, you're in the Best shape of your life and you need, you have to take time off. But at the same time, I'm like, all I'm doing is setting myself up to get out of shape and then I gotta get back in.
- [78:03]
C
Do it all over again.
- [78:04]
A
I'll do it all over again. It's the worst part. But yeah. So. Well, good. I'm glad you're healthy. I'm glad you're gonna get back on the court, get yourself ready for unrivaled. Can't wait to watch you there. And thank you. Thank you for coming on the pod.
- [78:16]
C
So guard to guard, person to person, you're unbelievably amazing. I won't fangirl you right now. I just want you to know that I used to tell my mom and dad about my USA experiences. Drew and I never like tell nobody else this but like, I just wish I would have got an autograph and stuff like that. But I just want you to know that like, people like myself actually watched you. Like, we, we appreciate what you gave to the game and I appreciate you.
- [78:38]
A
Thank you. Thank you. That means a lot. I appreciate it.
- [78:41]
C
It's love always. I can't wait to keep connecting.
- [78:44]
A
Same, same. Bring you back on. Let's go.
- [78:47]
C
For sure. I like it. Thank you.
- [78:51]
A
Hope you guys enjoyed that conversation with Kelsey. I definitely did. You don't really get to hear or we haven't really heard a lot about Kelsey Mitchell's story, whether it's, you know, the impact her dad had on her having to go through the grieving process while playing. I really enjoyed hearing about how she's using football to help her with her footwork, but also her leadership style. And it really just goes to show you there's so many different ways to be a leader and it's all about fit. It's all about who you pair up with and then building chemistry from there. So again, Kelsey's somebody who I've always been a fan of, always enjoyed watching. It was super dope to connect with her. And again, I hope you guys enjoyed. See you next time. This episode is a co production of Together and Vox Media. Our producers are Tommy Alter, Jason Gallagher, Richie Bozek, Harry Krinsky, Jess Clarendon and Melanie Carter. Support for Bird's Eye View comes from the all electric Toyota bz. The true test of a first rate intellect is the ability to change one's mind. That's a quote from me. I just made it up. But it sounds good, doesn't it? So maybe it's time to revisit your thoughts. On battery electric vehicles with the all electric Toyota bz. I've already told you about a few of its amazing features. Its EPA estimated driving range rating up to 314 miles. Its versatile charging capabilities available premium JBL9 speaker audio system. Its sleek and chiseled design. So I won't repeat myself, all I'll say is go check it out for yourself. The all electric BZ OneDrive can change your mind. Learn more at toyota.com BZ Toyota let's go places.