← Bird's Eye View with Sue Bird
Bird's Eye View with Sue Bird
Stephanie White on Building Trust with Caitlin Clark & the CBA Offseason
01:12:42
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- [00:00]
A
You know, with Caitlin, you know, you know, she's a hard worker because of what she's been able to accomplish. But until you see that there's no wasted, you know, movements, no wasted reps, no wasted anything, you just have such a level of respect for how she goes about her work every day and understanding the spotlight that she's on, understanding the weight that she carries because of who she is. And I've said this before, like she's literally like Taylor Swift 2.0.
- [00:38]
B
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Bird's Eye View. Been a minute, but we're back. Today's guest is a leader who has succeeded at every level of the sport. As a former WNBA Coach of the year, she continues to bring a mix of IQ and intensity to every team she leads. From her days as a player to her days on the sidelines, she has built a reputation for developing talent and commanding respect and creating a culture where players can thrive. She's truly proven she's one of the most impactful voices in women's basketball. I'm talking about none other than Stephanie White. But before we get into the interview, you know what time it is. It's time for Sue's View. Support for this show comes from Chase. If you're a fan of women's sports, you're always looking for ways to get closer to the action. And your Chase card can get you exactly that. With a Chase card, you can experience more. That means access to pre sales, preferred seating and more savings unlock benefits that let you skip lines and turn a game you wouldn't miss for the world into a truly unforgettable experience. For more information about how to step into the world of more with Chase experiences, visit chase.com experiences benefits available only to eligible Chase card holders. Deposit and credit card products provided by JP Morgan, Chase Bank, NA Member FDIC Terms, conditions, restrictions and limitations apply.
- [01:56]
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- [02:26]
All right, it's WNBA off season, so you know what that means. Particularly this season, a lot of CBA talk. So, as you guys probably already know, the WNBA and the WNBPA have agreed to a six week extension. This agreement also includes like an option for either party to Terminate the extension within like a 48 hour notice. I personally don't see that happening. I think what we're seeing here is just more time needed. I actually don't even think there's much to read into here. I think based on my preview experience, it's common A. We've already talked about this, talked about this on a touch more super common to have extensions done last CBA didn't get finished till after the new year. So in a sense we wanna get things going because we've got expansion draft, we've got free agency, but there still is time. Also, from my last experience, these negotiations move slower than you might think. I think sometimes people think they're meeting every day and it's like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. It just goes a little bit slower. So again, all normal. Usually the money is what's hanging things up, which sounds like this is the case here as well. If you've been on social media at all. But once that gets finalized, fingers crossed, usually it's like just fast pass the rest of the way. I personally think the good news is, even though it sounds like they're still trying to negotiate that money, the salary, rev share, all those things, I mean, look at the numbers that are being talked about. If you could just take a second and think about where the max, where the minimum, where the average was the last couple years, of course, historically, but the last couple years to what they're talking about now. I feel like we're already in a good spot. So hopefully, like I said, both sides are negotiating and we'll get to an even better place. Okay. We also had the draft lottery and since Dallas got the number one pick, this will be their back. They'll have back to back number one picks. I was kind of thinking, I was like, I was actually a part of two scenarios where we had back to back number one picks. Me and Lauren, back in the day, Jewel and Stewie. There's two other teams that have had this, the Indiana Fever, most recently with Aaliyah Boston and Caitlin Clark. And then the Las Vegas Aces with actually back to back to back, if you count Kelsey Plum with San Antonio. Then they went Asia Wilson, Jackie Young. And the point being, I don't know, man, the pressure is on. The pressure's on Indiana, the pressure's on Dallas because anytime you get back to back number one picks, you generally win. You generally win. So, you know, pressure's on. Half kidding with that. So, yeah, so the rest of the lottery went like this. According to ESPN's mock draft, Dallas number one, Az Fudd, projected. Minnesota, number two, Awa Pham, projected. She's from Spain. Number three, Seattle, Olivia Miles, projected. D.C. comes in at four, Lauren Betts in the mock draft and then Chicago at 5 flage. Johnson could end up there. So keep your eye out on those players this college season, okay? Last but not least, the AmeriCup team 3x3 did their thing, both the men and the women. They were in Mexico playing in the America. They both won gold. So I just want to give a shout out to Elena Deldon, Jimmer Fredette, the two new managing directors. My fellow managing directors. Congratulations to them and to the players. Veronica Burton, Shakira Austin, Naz Hillman Baker and Alicia Gray. Alicia hit the game winning free throws. She was mvp. All four of those players, to be honest, coming off great WNBA season. So it's great to see them doing this with USA across their chest. The 5 on 5 national team are we calling it that has its first camp next week and our next guest will be there as a court coach. So let's get to it. Please welcome Stephanie White.
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Hey, Steph, welcome to the show.
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A
Thanks. Thanks for having me.
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B
Yeah, thanks for coming. So what have you been up to since the WNBA season ended?
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A
A lot of mom duties, a lot of car rides, pickup. I feel like a glorified Uber drop off pickup, homework, sports, you know, all of those things. And hopping back into some television work as well. So. Been keeping myself busy for sure.
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B
Do coaches go to Cabo and Cancun and all those places too, or did you get a vacation?
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A
I did a short little vacation. Just. Honestly, just about 36 hours was all I had. I have a bigger one planned for end of February, early March, so. Yeah. Oh, nice.
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B
Yeah, you're on like that kid schedule.
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A
Yes.
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B
You got to go based on President's week or whatever.
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A
That's right. Fall break, spring break, winter break, they have all the breaks. I feel like they're never in school now.
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B
I know that was the one thing I went to. I ended up going to Catholic school my last two years, my junior and senior year, they take all the vacations, they've got all the holidays. I loved it. It was so much better than public school.
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A
They do and it's like, you know, get them out a couple days early to leave for this one and come in a couple days late for that one. So yeah, it works out. There's some flexibility with school system.
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B
All right, well, on top of mom life, I'm sure you're paying attention to CBA stuff. All the conversations they just announced. So we're having this conversation on Monday. It'll come out on Friday, but they just announced this six week extension. What's it like for you as a coach? Is it hard to sit and wait? What's that experience like as the CBA plays out?
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A
It is hard. It's hard to sit and wait not knowing the timing of when things are going to shake out, when free agency's gonna, when we're going to be able to know what the calendar looks like. It's also hard because we have a lot of players that are in and out of market. And so from a scheduling and workout standpoint, we schedule a week ahead and schedule a week in advance. And if it's going to shut down, then we need to shut everything down. Hopefully we can continue to work with our players that are injured because we have a lot of them in market as well. But it is, it's very difficult being in limbo. It's very difficult when you're talking to your staff and you don't really know anything.
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But at the same time, you know, it's, it's part of the growing process of our league. We certainly understand that as, as our staff is mostly former players. We understand that as well. But, but being in limbo is, is difficult.
- [09:02]
B
Yeah. Well, like you said, the other thing the CBA will, will decide is stuff like, like the core, will they have core designations? So I'm sure that goes into all your planning. So can you plan, like, can you even start to, to game plan for what you want to get on your roster?
- [09:19]
A
I think we can game plan for what we'd like to have. You know, I think the way that things shake out in terms of what things look like financially, you know, we have a young core, so that will certainly impact, you know, our ability to make certain moves in free agency. I'm glad I'm not the gm. I can tell you that from a timing standpoint, how much time there will be to adjust, you know, what it's going to look like, roster spots, you know, roster management, not just, not just what it looks like financially. How many players are we going to have on a roster? What is it going to look like for us? You know, we can't just think in the, in the term of one year, what's it going to look like for us in the next three years? You know, what can it look like in the next three years? What can it look like in the next five years? So I think the buffer of when we would have normally had, you know, a three to four week time frame to look at it is not going to be there. So we're going to have to make decisions quickly. You know, our ability to sort of anticipate what might come down the pipe is not there. So hopefully we will be able to respond instead of react in a timely manner or whatever that timeframe might look like.
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B
Right. I mean, the one thing that I guess is similar to other off seasons is you know, what pick you have that year. You guys have the 10th pick. So just give like a glimpse, like in a typical year, right. Like not a crazy CBA year of what it's like for you as a coach, your staff, the gm, of course, what's that like when, when you're, when you're scouting in the off season?
- [10:47]
A
Yeah, for us, you know, having that traditionally when I've been in Indiana, we've had that 8, 9, 10 pick. It's, you know, you're gonna. Well, you know, it's, it's been that, it's been that way. But we've also gotten really good picks, you know, in those situations too. And I think back to like Alaysia Clarendon or Jeanette Poland, you know, players who can impact your team, you know, you might not know how quickly they'll impact your team, certainly, but where they'll fit in, what their development path looks like, you know, we have traditionally seen in our league, with the exception of your superstars, of course, you know, what will it look like in that year, three to four, you know, who's going to have the ability to really develop, who's going to have the ability to really impact in that year, three to four. And so for us, it's trying to evaluate who the fit will be, certainly culturally who the fit will be. And hopefully I think the growth area for us as not just a franchise but as a league, is being able to take a deeper dive. We don't have the luxury of making mistakes anymore. Take a deeper dive in terms of interview process.
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When you're going through, we haven't been able to do that. There haven't been pro days to be able to watch players in workouts. We haven't had combines in a long, long time to be able to really evaluate players. And so you've got to take a deeper look. And that means going to practices, going to shoot arounds, seeing the less obvious things, body language, coachability, how they're working in practice. It's easy to see how somebody performs in a game. But what are some of the subtleties and the nuance that are going to allow them to stick and develop in our league.
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B
Yeah. I was actually gonna bring this up later, so I'm really thankful that you brought it up. We don't have a combine anymore. Right. Which for those that don't know, they used to bring us all in. If you were a high pick, you were kind of just going to, like, get your height and your weight and like, say hi. But for others, it was a chance to play against each other. For coaches to come and watch, GMs to come and watch. We don't have that. You can't work people out. Is there anything. Because I think that one of the hardest parts about being in your position and being a GM is the evaluation of college talent. Like, it's really. You really have to find ways to get into, like, you said, that nuance. Is there anything you would like to see added? I don't even know when, but, like after the college season or maybe during the college season for you guys to be able to get a chance to even just talk to these players.
- [13:22]
A
Yeah, I mean, certainly a combine would be nice. You know, what we found in the past was a lot of people didn't participate, and so it made it very difficult in an interview process. I like the fact that some teams, some college teams are doing pro days, but even more the interview process, I find it really challenging. Of course, I'm kind of in the middle of that old school, new school mentality, but I find it really challenging when we're seeing players now in four schools in four years. Why.
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Coaching changes. Certainly you understand that fit. Certainly you understand that. But is there a pattern of behavior here that you're unwilling or not capable of working into your timeframe because most people aren't going to come in and play right away? Or are there other circumstances that are involved? And so really being able to do some background information into why those things happened. It's not as easy as I know players think it is to come into our league and just play. Now. There are players who make it look easy, but it's not. And there's a different level of consistency that it takes to. To be successful and to stay in rotation. There's a different maturity level that you have to have to understand that you will be in and out of rotation and you've got to stay ready so you don't have to get ready. And those things aren't obvious when you're just watching ball games. Those are things that you really have to take a deeper dive into. How Are they being challenged in practice or workouts? How do they respond? If there are certain teachable moments? So maybe combines can show that, maybe pro days can show that, and it's just a different opportunity. So I do think that we need some level of further evaluation. I don't know what that looks like for us. We're throwing out a lot of different ideas, but I think taking steps to get us there is going to be important.
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B
Yeah, well, the calendar is really what makes it super, super tough. But we are seeing, I feel like we can all agree there's a trend of players hitting their stride in the WNBA in, like, year three, four, five, and really becoming who they are. I mean, who knows why? Maybe it is because they bounce around a little bit in college, more now. Maybe it's just, I don't know, starting somewhere in, like, the AAU and like, figuring out how to play on a team, not just as an individual. That's definitely something I've seen. But a lot of people, you know, and this is where I'm going to get the expansion, not necessarily the draft, but just like the fact that the WNBA is expanding. I'm just curious, like, there are going to be more spots for more people for development, but how do you think expansion in general is going to impact the league?
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A
I think it's. It's going to impact the league in a lot of ways. You know, certainly with the rate that we're expanding, not having roster spots is challenging. You know, you're not going to have. You want to have players that are prepared and ready to go, that are prepared and ready to impact these expansion teams and franchises. You know, we saw it a number of years ago, you know, when I was a player and very early in my coaching career, where expansion teams weren't competitive, and they weren't competitive for a long time. You know, I was a part of an expansion team as a player in Indiana, and it took us a long time. It took us a number of draft picks. And typically, you really could only make those strides in the draft. You know, now with more movement in free agency, I think it certainly helps if you're in a market that free agents want to go to, if you have opportunity from a financial standpoint to pay good free agents. But certainly as coaches and as former players, I want to see roster expansion. I want to see us be able to really have the opportunity to develop young players and young talent. There are a lot of players who have potential to play in our league that just don't have opportunity because there's not enough spots. And because when you're holding an 11, 12 man roster, you've got to have players who can impact right away. We've seen it from an injury standpoint. We've had to go the hardship route a number of times. If you have more roster spots, then they're in your system every day, they're working in your system and developing every single day. And then they're ready when their number is called. And I just think that roster expansions for us as coaches, we want that to be on the table.
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B
Yeah. So as someone, we're going to get into all of your playing experience, your coaching experience, but you've been on both sides. So kind of like a two parter. What do you think is the most promising part about our league right now? And then if there was something you could change, what would it be?
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A
Yeah, I mean, I think certainly the most promising is that we've known that this league could be what it's starting to become for a long time. Right. The interest level from the casual fan, from different fan bases. I think the excitement level in terms of the play and just the versatility and overall talent of our athletes. I think it's at a point where it's mainstream and it's been on that trajectory. And I think anytime you look at professional leagues, there is a trajectory and we're still on it and we're still hitting it and you get the influx of superstar talent. You get finally the carryover from the college fan to the wnba. You know, I think there are a lot of things, I believe it started in the bubble when you didn't have an opportunity because our seasons in the summer, it's tough and we compete with a lot of different things. And the year of the bubble, everybody was sitting at home and you get fans that sometimes for the first time saw our league. And you know, we often say if you see us once, you're going to want to come back. And I think that started a little bit of the momentum and then the influx of superstar talent of course continues, continues to move the needle. And so I really like where we are. I'm proud to continue to still be a part of this league and the growth of this league and where we are. You know, I think certainly some things I'd like to change, I'd like to change the toxicity around our league. You know, I know that's, that's not really a controllable factor. You know, I love the fact that the women in our league are always on the forefront of social Change. I think that we have. Sport in general is. But women in particular, you know, that's a very. A very prideful thing that I love about our league, you know, and I think we want to continue to look to expand the footprint, to look to make our season longer. It's tough with the calendar. It's tough with everything that we have to compete against, but these women deserve the opportunity to have this as their only job, number one, and to be able to play a true season and to have an off season so their bodies can recover and their bodies can recuperate and hopefully we won't see the same amount of injury that we've been seeing recently.
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B
Absolutely. Speaking of opportunity, we're also seeing. And there's a lot of conversation about the opportunities in the coaching ranks. Right. So there was a bunch of vacancies this year. The last one just filled. New York hired Chris DeMarco. And again, I don't even have to, like, go into it. We know the conversations that are happening. I'm just curious because I had Sandy on a couple weeks ago. We talked about it a little bit. You know, you guys have a lot in common in that former players, now top WNBA coaches. What are just your general thoughts on, like, the new hirings we're seeing, but also just like that pipeline in general?
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A
Yeah. I think certainly it's a much more attractive job than it ever was. You know, with the talents, with the pay scales, you know, changing and things like that. Yeah, exactly. Nobody wanted to be in it when the money wasn't there. That's certainly true. You know, I think that as a. As a league and as a whole, you know, we got to continue to grow our pipeline. Former players that are getting involved now. Look, I do think that it's a misconception to say that there are, with certain former players in particular, that they don't have experience. Coaching experience. Right. Like they're playing experiences. Experience as well. It's not coaching. You look at it from a different point of view. And I think each year that you coach, you learn a different perspective. But we can't discount the fact that if they would have went into coaching right away, some of them been coaching for 10 to 12 years by now, but that playing experience is important. I think the ownership is on us as head coaches to continue to grow and develop that pipeline and to continue to give them more and continue to put them in positions for success.
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One of the best opportunities I had was coming back to Indiana and working for Lynn Dunn. Lynn put me in positions in practice every day in her office, every day where we were having conversations about situations and about substitutions. And she challenged me. You know, oftentimes I felt like we were talking in circles, but she challenged me to think in different ways and to think about, you know, the contingency. To the contingency. To the contingency. What's the counter to this? What's the counter to that? Well, finally, if we get five down, I'm like, lyn, we're screwed. Like, we can't do anything about that. But, you know, I think that she in particular put me in position to understand what was going to be necessary at the next level for me. And moving that one seat is a big difference. You know, it's not just about knowing the game. It's not just about having relationships with players. You know, it's not just about poise and composure. In a moment, you've got to put all of that together. You've got to think about the whole as opposed to just the parts. And you've got to do it quickly. And so I do think that, you know, the opportunities for us as head coaches who have been a part of this league to continue to grow.
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Young former players and young women in particular is important. You know, that's one of the reasons that I love having former players on my staff, giving them opportunities, throwing them into situations, getting them experience so that when they get their opportunity, they're going to be ready. But I also want us to have former players in GM roles and president roles and at the commissioner's office and, you know, in the league because we do see it from a different perspective point of view. And we're not just hiring necessarily a name or a candidate. We're hiring the right person for the job and we're hiring someone who continues to value our league and continues to move the needle for our league.
- [23:22]
B
Support for this show comes from Chase. There's no feeling more electric than seeing a game live. When you're surrounded by other fans, the anticipation before kickoff is almost palpable. And then things really get rolling and you get to witness season defining moments in person and join in on the roar of the crowd. It's truly a feeling like no other. Especially if you're a fan of women's sports. You're always looking for ways to get closer to the action and your Chase card can get you exactly that. With a Chase card, you can experience more and make those unforgettable moments even better. With access to pre sales, preferred seating and savings score prime seats at top venues with your Chase Card and enjoy the best views at your favorite events. Simply tap the Chase Filter or enter your offer code on ticketing sites to enjoy access to the best locations in the house. For more information about how to step into the world of more with Chase experiences, visit chase.com experiences benefits available only to eligible Chase Card holders. Deposit and credit card products provided by JPMorgan Chase NA member FDIC terms, conditions, restrictions and limitations apply.
- [24:26]
A
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Guys.
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B
Thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.
- [25:09]
A
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- [26:05]
B
Visit t mobile.com yeah, I mean I couldn't agree more. Back to what you were saying about players experience from playing and how that can kind of segue into coaching. I've always said it. It's like, if you've played 10 plus years, likely overseas for a lot of this, like previous generation, the amount of playing styles you've been exposed to.
- [26:27]
A
Yes.
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B
You not only know what you like and what works, you know, what you don't like and what won't work and how you want to be, maybe. So I totally agree that that is overlooked. I also agree that the, you know, moving from one seat to the next, it's one thing to, you know, have opinions, have thoughts. It's another to be the one making the decision. I actually, when Jenny Busek was the co chair, sometimes we would do these scrimmages where she would let, like us coach ourselves. And there was this one particular scrimmage I was in charge of subbing and I was like, oh shit. Like, like this is. And it was in that moment, like, truly, I'm by the way, at this point, let's call me like 34. I was literally like, oh my God, like this is a juggle that I never really anticipated. So full respect for that. And yeah, I think it's great that Lynn challenged you in those ways and I love that you're doing the same. Is there any, like, if a former player, really anybody but a former player is listening? What, like, advice given your path? Like, what advice would you give them if they want to get into this?
- [27:33]
A
Yeah, I think first and foremost it's continuing to watch film, continuing to think of the game in different ways. You know, it's not just watching. You know, you watch sometimes as a, as an athlete, and I was the same way as a player. And you're watching it from a selfish point of view most of the time. Right. And you're not seeing sort of the nuance. You know, it's like the value of the hockey assist. You know, there are different values of the nuance that happen. So, you know, thinking about every player when they come out of the game wants to know, why am I coming out of the game? Well, sometimes it's not always what you, what you did or didn't do. Sometimes it's combinations, sometimes it's matchups, sometimes it's, you know, hey, Kelsey Mitchell was sitting over here for three minutes. That's too long. She's got to get back in the game, you know, something like that, that it might be. And starting to think about it from a different perspective. You know, I had a coach in a different sport talk to me one time. I was just asking a lot of questions about coaching. I was an assistant coach at the time, and he Said, you know, as a player, you see the game from, like, 10,000ft. You know, as an assistant coach, you see it from, like, 20, 25,000ft. And as a head coach, you got to see it from 75,000ft. You have to see everything. And so continuing to challenge players to think about time and score situations when they're watching film, to think about what are you willing to give up, what are you willing to live with, to think about, who do you. Who's. Who do you want to have the ball in their hands and why. You know, I'll never forget, I have this story about Katie Douglas. When she was playing in Indiana, we were with the Fever, and she was like, steph, why don't we run. Why don't we run this play? And I'm like, well, Kate, who do you want to run it for? I don't know. You know, just, like, thinking about those kinds of situations. You know, it's not as simple as just. Just putting the ball in somebody's hands and letting them go make a play. Not anymore. Because defenses are too good. You got to get them the ball on the third side of the floor so that they can make a play. Not in the first action. Like, that's not going to happen. And so just thinking about it in different levels and continuing to watch the game and think about situational basketball and think about substitution patterns and efficiency, you know, in the game, and just start thinking about it from different perspectives.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. I brought up Sandy already. I said, you guys have a lot in common. I asked her this question. You guys, do you know that you were, like, traded for each other?
- [29:41]
A
Yes, we were. Miami.
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B
Yeah. So you guys are connected. She gets picked in the expansion draft, goes to Miami. Then. I'm sorry. Gets picked by Indiana. Sorry. And then you guys, there's a whole flippity doo that happens. Which brings you. Yeah, A little swap that brings you to Indiana. But as I was kind of like. So I'd already researched that, looking at Sandy, and then I was kind of doing a little research on you, just getting the details. I already knew the gist. And as I'm looking through. Okay, I'm gonna. I'm actually gonna speak for you for a second from my perspective. So you were picked 21st in the 1999 WNBA Draft. You were the third college player picked. Do you feel robbed? I feel like you have to feel robbed. I would feel robbed if I were you. You did get picked 21st, but you were the third college player picked. To me, that's a third Pick? I don't know. Do you feel robbed?
- [30:36]
A
You know, I was taken in the same draft, so I went to Charlotte in my rookie year, and Don Staley was chosen in the first round to go to. To go to Charlotte. So, you know, when you're. When you're taken by the same team behind a Hall of Famer, you know, it puts a different perspective, certainly on it. But, yeah, I think that certainly there's a little bit of you that feels like, oh, God, like, why did they have to come in in this draft? Come on. Why did they have to come in in this draft?
- [31:00]
B
You're the third pick from now on, if anyone asks. 1999, third pick, it was like, Shamiqua Hull' Claw was the first player, and then Michelle Van Gorp was the second, and you were the third. I'm just like. That has to be changed some.
- [31:13]
A
They have to, like, separate that out. Yeah, that's an asterisk by that draft. Yeah. Yeah, literally.
- [31:20]
B
But if you can go back, like. And we already mentioned, you know, having combines back then, so. Did they have a combine back then when you were in your draft?
- [31:27]
A
They did. Yes, they did, but I was actually injured. I didn't do it. So I got injured in the national championship game.
- [31:36]
In 99, and then the combine was, like, two or three weeks after that. So I had an ankle injury, and I didn't end up getting to participate in the combine. So, in fact, I was a little limited when we first started training camp that year, and I was really nervous about that. Not now. People come in and they're injured, and it's like, oh, kind of whatever. I was really nervous about that. I've since had three surgeries on that ankle. But at the same time.
- [32:01]
You weren't guaranteed anything. No matter when you were picked, you certainly weren't guaranteed anything. I wanted to participate in the combine. I wasn't able to. We didn't have the luxury at that time of being like, oh, no, I'm not going to do it.
- [32:15]
And we didn't have agents at that time telling us not to do was like, hey, are you going to be ready? And I wasn't. And it made me really nervous. I also missed my college graduation. Now players are asking to go back for college graduation and all of those things, but it's like, no, this is my job now. We're not guaranteed this job. The league had only been around for, what, two, maybe three years at the time, so, yeah, lots of things have changed since then.
- [32:40]
B
Yeah. So what was that first year like? I didn't. Even as I was looking, I didn't even realize, like. So now you're teaming up with. Well, you're obviously trying to make the roster, all those nerves, but you're teaming up with Don Staley. Ann Donovan was the coach. Is that accurate?
- [32:54]
A
No. So that time it was. Mariannell Medders was the coach.
- [32:59]
She got fired halfway through the season in the middle of a road trip. And Dan Hughes took over. You know, and I was going on this team. It was Dawn Staley, Tracy Reed, Vicki Bullitt, Rhonda Mapp, Andrea Stinson. I mean, all of these players who.
- [33:13]
B
Who.
- [33:13]
A
Who had been playing overseas forever, right? All of these vet. All these vets, you know, very few young players. It was intimidating. You know, it was intimidating to go in and with. With these women who have been doing this for so long, who are now having. Finally having the opportunity to do it in the United States. You know, coach gets fired in the middle of a road trip. It was like, what is happening? You know, I'm from, like, the cornfields of Indiana, and now this is, like this stuff that's going on right now. So it was a little bit intimidating, but it was. It was a great experience. And I mean, certainly going in and practicing with those guys every day and understanding, you know, the sense of urgency that it takes, understanding to not take this opportunity for granted. And I think for me, being a part of the early years of the league and seeing it now, I think that's the thing that most sticks with me, is that this is not guaranteed. A lot of women sacrificed a lot of their career for us to be able to have this opportunity, for us to be able to live in this moment. We are very fortunate that this group in the WNBA right now, they've only known the wnba. You know, I didn't. I didn't. In fact, it was. I was a sophomore in college before I was like, oh, I can. I can maybe continue to play basketball. I mean, I had already kind of wrapped my mind around the fact that as soon as I graduated, I was done. I didn't think about going overseas. I didn't think about all that. And so this being a bridge, so to speak, of the two different eras of the wnba, I still have this. This feeling all the time of, like, we're not guaranteed this opportunity. Like, we need to do this the right way. We need to understand the moment that we're in. We need to continue to. To push this league forward. But we also can't forget where we came from and can't forget all those who sacrificed for us to have this opportunity that we have right now and to be living in this moment for our league's history.
- [35:06]
B
Yeah. Speaking of like, who from those days, like, who do you think what players style would translate to the style of the WNBA now? Like, who would just be in the WNBA right now, killing it?
- [35:20]
A
Oh, gosh. Well, certainly, I think Andrea Stinson. For those young people who don't know Andrea, I mean, she was a straight bucket. Right. And she was a bucket at that time when she was playing in Charlotte. And I don't even know how long she had been playing overseas. But I mean, she. She could just like, didn't she have a spin move?
- [35:38]
B
Didn't her spin move have a name?
- [35:39]
A
She had a spin move. She had a pull up. I mean, she. She was a dog. Like she didn't care. Like she was just gonna. She was going to get after it. I mean, she's somebody that I think would be playing right now. Vicki Bullet's the other one because Vicki Bullet had a mentality about her that was just. She was not going to be denied. She worked her tail off. She was no nonsense. She was incredibly fundamental, but tough as nails. And you know, I think she's another one that would certainly. Especially for the players who don't know. I mean, obviously Cheryl Swoopes and Cynthia Cooper, but the players who don't know those names, those two to me, you know, are tops on the list.
- [36:18]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So what about if I brought it present day for you now as a coach who's like the hardest player for you to game plan for?
- [36:27]
A
Oh, gosh. Well, Asia's tough, you know, certainly fee, because she can do everything, is so tough. You know, I think that those, those players in particular, when you look at. At where they were when they came out of college and how much their game has expanded, you know, now and then how fundamental, how fluid and how smart they are. You know, both of those guys make it really, really tough to game plan against.
- [36:54]
B
Yeah, you're just reminding me. The other day, Megan and I were doing a live show and we did some fan questions and someone was like, you know, sue, now that there's been like a bunch of guards that have come into the league, obviously they're talking about Caitlin and Paige. You can even go a couple years back, add Sabrina in that, so on and so forth, they're like, do think you're going to see more guards getting mvp? Like, are they going to take over? And I'm just like, I don't know, because the talls, like, are still tall.
- [37:21]
A
Yeah, you can't. You can't do anything about that.
- [37:24]
B
Like, they're tall and they're versatile. They're basically guards.
- [37:28]
A
Yes. Yeah, they're basically guards.
- [37:31]
B
Yeah. I do think we'll see it. But I want to say, in the history of our league, with like, the exception of, you know, Diana, Maya, we haven't had Cheryl Swoops. We really haven't had guards. There's been some finish in the, in the top of voting, but never get that mvp, so.
- [37:47]
A
And I want to see a guard get a defensive player of the year.
- [37:50]
B
Agree.
- [37:51]
A
I want to say I want us to just forget about the blocks and the steals all the time and maybe go a little bit deeper into the analytics.
- [37:58]
B
Totally agree. By the way, I've already talked about on the show, I'm like, why is rebounding a part of this? I just, I can't. To me, it has nothing. Everyone's like, it finishes the possession. I'm like, okay, somebody else defense.
- [38:12]
A
Yes, exactly.
- [38:13]
B
No, but anyways, okay, so brought up Sandy, you get to the fever. So I'm gonna talk about playing a little bit. So when you get there in 2000, it completes this, like, pretty amazing and rare, like, full circle moment for you, right? You play high school ball in Indiana. You're a Miss Indiana National Player of the Year. You go to Purdue, so you stay in state Wade trophy winner, your senior year, national champion, like you mentioned, and now you're back as a pro. So for, you know, gosh, like a good 10 plus years, you're essentially the face of Indiana basketball. What was that experience like?
- [38:54]
A
Yeah, it was pretty crazy. You know, I said earlier that.
- [39:00]
I never thought that playing ball beyond college was in the cards for me. And then the opportunity to come home and be in my home state, it was incredible. I often call myself a community project. I came from a little farming town, a little county that had no stoplights. Everybody in our county went to one school. I graduated with 98 people in my class. You know, this is kind of the quintessential Hoosier story in that, you know, all those people who really supported me from a young age.
- [39:33]
And helped mold and grow me, got to continue to watch my career. In fact, some of those people and now their kids and their grandkids and their great grandkids are coming to Fever games now. And it's just. It's really incredible when you have an opportunity to look back on it, when you're living it. It's one thing but when you have an opportunity to reflect and, and think about the past in the moment and it just doesn't happen very often, and I'd be remiss if I said that it didn't mean something, because it does. It means a lot to me. I take a lot of pride in being from Indiana and what we did at Purdue and what we're continuing to do with the Fever. I've had much more success on the coaching side with the Fever than I did on the playing side.
- [40:17]
And it was, you know, on a very, very, very small scale, you know, similar to what, what Caitlin has gone through in that it was me in the print media and me in the, in the, in the college realm and here and now on a global scale, you know, it's her. And so I do hope that from that perspective, you know, I want to, I want to be able to help her navigate, you know, some of this in certain ways or just be a resource for conversation of when it gets heavy. Because it does get heavy. You know, expectation number one is one thing, but, you know, everybody's, everybody's. She doesn't have any space. She doesn't have, she can't, she can't just be her. She's still a 23 year old kid trying to find her way. And so I do have a little bit of experience, you know, in that as well. But it's just, you know, it's a once in a lifetime thing for me. And I don't know that I ever thought I would be back with the Fever. But now in this moment, to be back, to continue to grow this franchise, to continue to, to grow our organization and basketball in the state of Indiana. I'm just really honored to be able to still be in this moment.
- [41:25]
B
Yeah, I mean, there's so many questions that you've already kind of like led me to in terms of your coaching career. But I want to stay on the playing version of you for a second. I remember watching you at the, in the. I don't even know what they called it then. What is the McDonald's All American game? I guess it was like the WBCA Nike All American Game. I remember your story. You were a senior when I was a freshman in college. So very familiar. But I want you to describe yourself like, what were you like as a player?
- [41:53]
A
Sheesh. If I describe myself now of what I was like as a player, I'm not sure I would have ever played for myself. You know, I didn't play a lot of defense.
- [42:06]
You know, I was a combo you know, athlete, like point guard, wing. You know, when I started playing basketball, you know, I was always somebody who could. I could get to the rim. I remember when I was a freshman in high school, I shot three three pointers. That's it. I made one of them. I was like a 70 something percent free throw shooter. It was awful. And so then I really worked to become a shooter, which is eventually what I became known for. It was a different time. I played with guys growing up all the time, so I feel like that gave me a toughness, it gave me a competitive spirit and a competitive fire. Like I didn't want to lose to them, they didn't want to lose to me.
- [42:45]
So, you know, when I say, you know, players are a little bit crazy, like a little bit psycho, like I was a little bit psycho, you know, I was competitive in everything that I did. And I was a worker. I mean, I was. And, you know, I think some of it came naturally. Some of it was just, you know, really striving to become the best that I could be. Now, I think I was fortunate in the time that I grew up that there wasn't a lot of distraction, you know, outside of my little town where people were telling me that I was pretty good. You know, it wasn't like anybody else tells you that you're. That you're any good and you just keep working, you know, I loved AAU basketball at the time. It wasn't like it is now, where you're playing in all these tournaments all across the country, heck, sometimes across the world, against the best all the time. You only got one opportunity to play the best teams in the nation, and that was at the national tournament. And you had to earn the opportunity to go there, Right? And same thing with playing pickup or playing with the guys. It's like if you didn't win, you didn't get to stay. And so it was all about winning. It was all about winning, and it was all about proving that me as a girl playing with the guys could compete. And so I do think that that's where I got a little bit of my fire, my competitive spirit. You know, I hated to lose more than I like to win. And then my family kept me humble and hungry, you know, always telling me I wasn't good enough and always, you know, helping me understand that there's somebody out there that's working harder. And really, my entire goal was just to get a college scholarship, and I was thankful to be able to do that.
- [44:18]
B
Wait, wait, what was your AAU team who'd you play for.
- [44:21]
A
It wasn't a. It was. It's called Force 10. We actually, it was. We had a number of players that went places.
- [44:28]
B
Indiana's finest. Girl.
- [44:30]
A
No, no, I don't even know if that was around at that time.
- [44:33]
B
I don't think it was.
- [44:35]
A
Oh, was it? Yeah, no, no, that wasn't around at our time.
- [44:38]
B
It was like April McDivitt.
- [44:41]
Kelly Kamara played on it like a year or two. But then she went with Noon and started a whole other, whole other band anyways.
- [44:47]
A
Joe Noon. But you know, it's funny because one of my AU teammates, Christina Divyak, her daughter is now a freshman at Stanford, Alex Eschmeyer. So it's nuts because I'm going to call her game on Wednesday and I'm thinking to myself, oh my gosh. Played AAU with her mom.
- [45:05]
B
Love those moments.
- [45:09]
Okay, so what about you? It's kind of another two parter. Like you get into coaching. What are you seeing from your playing days? Like, you as a player that's showing up with you as a coach. And by the way, the two parter is like, was coaching always it for you? Is that like what you wanted to do or did it like find you?
- [45:26]
A
No, it found me. I had no idea what I wanted to do. I actually started. I majored in aviation in college. I wanted to be a pilot. So for two years I studied aviation. I got my private pilot's license after my first semester in college.
- [45:44]
I don't now. I'd have to go back up and get current. I don't have. My license isn't current. I stayed current for a number of years after I graduated college and then it kind of fell off the wayside. So I originally studied aviation, thought I wanted to fly planes, thought I wanted to be an astronaut. And then it became more of a hobby and changed to communications. Really had no idea what I wanted to do. My family is educators. So I thought, if all else fails, I'm going to go back to school and I'm going to be a teacher. While I was playing with Indiana, I'd had my, I think fourth or fifth surgery.
- [46:20]
And a woman by the name of Tracy Roller, who was coaching at Ball State, asked me. She said, hey, I have a coaching position. I didn't know if you'd like to try your hand in coaching. And I said no, and I'm not quite ready to be done playing. And she's like, that's okay, you can do both. You know, we're just up the road. I just love to have you on staff, you know, get your perspective. And so I said yes. And I'll never forget just the first moment that I stepped foot on the floor in practice. I was like, oh, yeah, like this is kind of where I'm meant to be. You know, I feel like my advantage, like I was never fast, I was never athletic. My advantage was always skill set, work ethic, and iq. I saw the game in a different way. You know, I saw it one or two plays ahead. You know, my instincts were pretty good, and that was the advantage that I had. And all of that really naturally came in coaching. I had to learn how to be a better communicator. I had to learn that just because I see it doesn't mean that everybody else does. So how do I get it from here to there?
- [47:18]
I had to learn to not just think one or two plays ahead, but to think three or four, to think strategically. I had to learn all of those things. It's a different level of work. I think every player thinks that they can coach, but it's not as simple as just watching cut ups of film. We're watching, I think seven, eight games.
- [47:39]
B
I think they forget about, myself included the control part, like you have no control as a coach, whereas a player, you have some. And not having is a totally different. Actually, how do you. How did you adjust to that?
- [47:51]
A
That was the hardest thing, you know, not having the ability to make the play, to make the read, to communicate it, you know, on the floor, like, why can't you see what I see? You know, that kind of thing. And it does. It takes years of maturity. It takes years of understanding how to, you know, part of being a great point guard is how you communicate with your, with your teammates, right? To get them to get to where you want them to go, you know, trick them in a sense, to get them to where you want to go. And so continuing to really learn how to do that as a coach, you know, and I think very young in my career, you know, I was still very much a. You know, you have to do it this way. Like, you know, it's not. Control isn't the right word, but you got to treat everybody the same way. You got to communicate to everybody the same way. There's, there's one standard and there's only one way to do it. And then as you evolve and you learn that you can communicate with different players in different ways that can help them be their best without lowering the standard. I think that was the biggest growth edge for me was just not being that Kind of hard ass. Look, I grew up down the street from Bobby Knight, so this is not. That's what I saw growing up Bobby Knight and Gene Katie and the way that they coached was a certain way. Right. So really learning that. Yeah. Not too far down the street. Yeah, yeah.
- [49:11]
B
That's a whole different ball game. Kids today would die.
- [49:14]
A
No, they would die.
- [49:15]
B
No chance.
- [49:16]
A
They could not handle it.
- [49:18]
B
No, absolutely not. So, yeah. So you bring up Ball State. So now we're kind of like entering your coaching career. You did, you had a couple stops in college. You end up in Chicago for a couple years. You already mentioned coming to Indiana for the first time with Lynn Dunn. You guys won a championship. Epic.
- [49:36]
A
Yes.
- [49:37]
B
That was an incredible run. I'm gonna circle back on that. Cause I feel like there's some similarities to maybe what happened this past year for you, but you then go to Vanderbilt. So just kind of take me through the decision after becoming. Sorry. After becoming the head coach with Indiana and you get to the finals, you have a pretty good second season as well. Talk me through the decision to go to college to choose Vanderbilt and just what that experience was like.
- [50:04]
A
Yeah, you know, that was a period of time where I had three kids under three.
- [50:11]
And you know, we talked about just the growth in terms of the game, not just financially, but in terms of like length of contract and stability and, you know, my kids being able to grow up pseudo on a college campus, to have the stability of a five to six year contract, to know where I was going to be. At that time, we were still teetering on where are we as a league, where are we financially?
- [50:39]
Coaching is a volatile profession. And as a young coach with three children, I was nervous about what happens if it's not here anymore. What do I do? There's not a lot of stability. And so that really factored in heavily at that time. I missed college sports too. You know, I was working in television and so I was around college sports a lot. You know, there's. I miss community, I miss camaraderie. You know, coaching in the W at that time, it was like as soon as the season was over, everybody was gone overseas.
- [51:12]
And then it's just like, you're here again and it's just you. And so I missed a lot of that as well. And there is a certain community that you get. Being on a college campus and being with, you know, other college coaches and being just a part of something bigger than yourself. So I missed that as well. So there were a lot of factors that went into it. Nashville is still my home. So like it down here a lot.
- [51:41]
And things didn't work out and sometimes it's like that we couldn't get it done here in a way that we would have liked to. And then fortunately for me, and certainly as women in this industry, we don't get a lot of second chances. And I think fortunately for me, I was able to get another chance and another opportunity and, you know, thankful to be able to take advantage of it.
- [52:04]
B
Yeah. So you're speaking of Connecticut, who you end up joining in 2023. That was a team that was fresh off the finals. They had just made a finals run. They're very, I would say like extremely veteran. Had some young pieces like Ty Harris, but very vet laden team with like at db. So how do you approach joining like a veteran group? Because we all know how the WNBA is. Like that's, you know, they're not always the easiest.
- [52:31]
A
They're not always the easiest. No. You know, I think, you know, for me it was, it was an opportunity. Like there was not a lot that was that they needed at the time. No, they were right there. I think that sometimes you find in sport and especially in professional sport that you just need a new voice, you need a new energy, you need a new vibe. You know, I think that's what it was in Connecticut. You know, certainly the opportunity for me to work with Jen was like right away a no brainer. You know, she's another one. I remember, you know, you were talking about, you know, you being a senior or me being a senior when you were a freshman. I remember watching Jen when I was, when I was a young player and just the way that she played the game and her competitive spirit and competitive fire and just relentless, you know, just always playing her ass off all the time and, and you know, fortunately for me, to be able to get to know her on a human level too, to just see what a great human being she is, you know, there's a reason why she's had such great success, you know, and so it was a no brainer to be able to go work alongside her and to be able to coach, you know, elite athletes and you know, at and DB and Bri Jones and you know, a core group who had been there. You know, we didn't quite get over the hump, you know, back to the Finals, like in a way that we wanted to, but it's tough sometimes with veteran players because they're a little bit stuck in their ways. But those guys were very open to us coming in and adjusting the way that we played there wasn't a lot that we had to do because they set the standard. I'll never forget they were a little bit late coming back after their overseas commitments that year. And just the intensity level. As soon as they got back to practice, it just went to another level. They just compete at is one of the fiercest competitors I've ever been around. I often compare her competitive spirit to Tameka's because it's like they both just refuse to be denied.
- [54:23]
They do. They will. Their team. They allow your team to do things that people might not think you're capable of doing. And so it was a really great opportunity for me. And those guys led in the way that we needed them to lead for us to to set the tone and be what we thought we were capable of being.
- [54:44]
B
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- [55:15]
A
This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas. There's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and Old Number 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee Whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee.
- [55:39]
Coca Cola for the big, for the.
- [55:42]
B
Small, the short and the tall. Peacemakers, risk takers for the optimists, pessimists for long distance love. For introverts and extroverts, the thinkers and the doers for old friends and new Coca Cola for everyone. Pick up some Coca Cola at a store near you. Yeah, I mean I know, I know you didn't win. I know the expectations were high, so there's some disappointment there. But you were coach of the year in your first year. 2023. You guys broke like I think your season win records the next year which then takes us to the opportunity to have this full circle moment appear again. So you end up back with the fever in 2024. So now you go from, I'm sorry, 2025. So now you go from like this veteran team where you're kind of like, coming in, they've just done this finals run to now like a very young team, at least the core group. Like, I think some people, for some reason, I feel like people talk about Kelsey Mitchell in this way. Maybe it's just me. Like, she's older. I mean, she literally just turned 30. Like, the kid is in the kid, but she's in her prime, you know, so you really do have like a core, core, young, young core group. So talk, talk me through. Just like going from a veteran team to now this, like, young core. You definitely add vets. But what was that like? What was your approach or how was your approach different when you got to the fever last year?
- [57:16]
A
Well, we had a lot more practice time, I can tell you that. You know, instead of it being those little 40 minute quick sessions, a lot more practice time, you know, not just were they. Were they young?
- [57:28]
No, no, you can get through a lot more quickly. No, no, no, no. You can get through a lot more.
- [57:35]
B
Yeah, I only wanted to go for 40 minutes when I was four.
- [57:37]
A
No, that's. That's ideal. That, that 45 minutes to an hour is ideal. With young players, you know, you're having to repeat things a lot, you know, and there's oftentimes a lot of slippage from one day to the next. Like, it's not always about building, you know, it's. It's. Hey, we just did this yesterday. We have to do this again, you know, or if we want to play, you know, a certain defense, a certain, like we want to play a horn set a certain way, like this is our base way we're going to play it. We shouldn't have to go over that and shoot around every single day. Just our adjustments. Right? Well, with the young team, sometimes you do so a lot more time in that. It was also a team in Indiana that had been in the bottom of the league in defense. And so we spent a lot of time just on defensive expectations, defensive principles, defensive dynamics. And we didn't have to do that in Connecticut. I mean, that was a team that had always been really good defensively, you know, of course, when at sets the tone, you know. So we had to spend a lot of time, number one, teaching the basics of how we wanted to play on both ends of the floor, but in particular on the defensive end. And two, with some of the regression just re emphasizing and drilling some things like we could get away with in Connecticut. A drill that covered four things at once with young players, you can't do that yet. Now, my hope is that we're going to eventually get there.
- [58:56]
But certainly that. And there's no substitute for experience. This is a group that while they had some experience, they hadn't been there yet. You know, they haven't been there yet. And so understanding what it takes on a daily basis, you know, there are some games that we lost early in the season and even late in the season that you shouldn't lose. That's the difference in whether you are hosting or whether you're going on the road, which is then in the difference in playing game five in your home arena and then playing game five in an away arena. And so you have to learn those things. You have to understand the level that it takes every single day. I think, you know, as coaches, it demanded more from us in terms of our energy, in terms of our ability to keep them at a certain level, in terms of our discipline to maintaining detail and not letting the slippage occur as much. So it was a different type of challenge, but it was a fun challenge. It really energized us as a coaching staff.
- [59:55]
B
Yeah, you brought up Caitlin and just kind of maybe some similarities with what you guys experience as young players. How important was it to like forge that relationship with her for, you know.
- [60:06]
A
All the reasons, I mean, really important. You know, I had had just a little bit of relationship with Caitlin from calling her games a number of times, you know, when she was in college, you know, but, you know, it was, it was very important. Look, she's obviously the centerpiece of everything that we do and you know, most importantly for me was just connecting and building trust. I don't know how she does what she does and handles it so gracefully, you know, I'm not sure, you know, myself as a, as, you know, 23 year old would have been able to handle it the way that she does and still perform at the elite level that she's able to perform, you know, with and at. So building trust, you know, getting, getting to know her, you know, it's, it's. I'm a firm believer that you have to coach and challenge your best players, you know, and for me to be able to do that, I needed to earn her trust and I need to be honest. Like I'm a very honest, transparent coach.
- [61:05]
You're going to know what I'm thinking or where I'm coming from and if you don't, and you certainly want to ask, but I'm going to be honest. And I think that I certainly appreciate that about her and I'm also the same kind of psycho that she is. In terms of competitiveness now, it comes out in different ways, but we both just really want to win and we want to set ourselves and our teammates up for success. And so it was really important for me right away with her, with AB and with Kelsey, honestly, I mean, they're the core three. And building a relationship with Kelsey, who I also covered when she was playing in college.
- [61:46]
Who'S somebody that was really instrumental in everything that we did, and AB as well. I mean, those three were the priority for me in terms of, like, look, I've got to really make sure that I'm earning their trust. You can't just come in and say, hey, this is what we're going to do. Like, it's about relationships totally.
- [62:03]
B
But the harder you are, meaning the more you're telling the truth, the more they're going to respect you. So it always kind of comes full circle in that way. What did you learn about those three that maybe you didn't realize from either covering them in college or coaching against them?
- [62:20]
A
I think number one, just, you know, with each other. With Kelsey, Kelsey's like, just a pros, probably. I mean, she's so low maintenance. She just. She comes. She just wants to play. Like, you know, she reminds me of some of those guys back in the day who would just go to the. Go to the park and just try to play pickup games. Like, that's her. She just wants to play. You know, she wants to know that you care about her. She wants you to be honest with her. And at the end of the day, she's low maintenance, and you just have to put her in positions to be successful. And I was so excited about the opportunity to just see what we could do and how we could make her life easier, because she really is the one who had been through the trenches with this franchise. You know, you think about when Tameka left and retired, you know, it just. The franchise went through a lot, and Kelsey's been the constant, and she deserved the opportunity to be a part of the successful years of the Indiana Fever. And so I was really happy with that for her about that. With AB I learned how high of an IQ player she is, how great of a facilitator she is that she could be almost like a point forward. You know, I didn't get that watching her play in college. I didn't get that, you know, in her first couple of years in the W. But she is so smart on the floor. She understands the game. You know, she. She puts a lot of pressure on herself to be. She's a perfectionist, as a lot of. A lot of elite athletes are. But, you know, we were able to utilize her in a different way because of how quickly we were able to recognize just her IQ and her ability to pass and facilitate. And when Caitlin wasn't on the floor, she had to be a point guard for us. So I love that about her and her ability now to continue to stretch and grow. And with Caitlin, you know, she's a hard worker because of what she's been able to accomplish, but until you see that there's no wasted movements, no wasted reps, no wasted anything, you just have such a level of respect for how she goes about her work every day and understanding the spotlight that she's on, understanding the weight that she carries because of who she is. And I've said this before, like, she's literally like Taylor Swift 2.0, and that somehow she's able to compartmentalize.
- [64:40]
And come to the gym, you know, get everything that she has to get done. You know, she's off doing everything all the time, but when she's there, she's working. You know, I have such great. Yes, yes. And she's an elite mind. She sees things two or three passes ahead as well.
- [64:58]
And so it's just. They've all been just a joy to work with. And Lexi Hull, I don't think you can appreciate as an opponent what she brings to the table on a daily basis, like her work ethic and her relentless spirit. She's just handled every situation that we put her in. Coming off the bench, starting, she approached every game the same. I think she's got a lot of upside still. You know, left to. Left to go. So, you know, it was just. It was a really refreshing group to be around.
- [65:31]
B
Yeah, I mean, you guys, you did a great job. You had, like, we talked about this. This young core. You surrounded them with role players, with vets. But the season still was, like, quite literally a roller coaster with all your injuries. I mean, I don't know, like, cry to keep from laughing or. I'm sorry, laugh to keep from crying. Like tragic comedy.
- [65:51]
A
We did both.
- [65:52]
B
Yeah, all of it. You really couldn't have scripted it any worse, but you guys handled it. You handled it. You kept your chemistry. You kind of brought up even, like, toxicity in general, you guys, because you have a lot of eyeballs. There's just a lot of chatter constantly happening. So there's all of this going on. But like I said, you keep your chemistry even with the lineup changes. How the hell did you do that?
- [66:15]
A
Well, I think part of it is just calling it a spade. A spade, right? Like, just addressing it. And from the first moment that we got there, our very first meeting, it was like, look, we've got to find a way to keep the noise outside the building, like, outside the building. And the noise inside the building might be inside the building, but there's a different noise that's inside our locker room. Like, we have to really have that layered approach of, you know, we have to sacrifice for the betterment of our team. You know, our mantra was we over me. And we addressed it head on. From the opening day, it's like, there are going to be moments where each one of you deserves to play, and you're not going to be playing. We have to be able to handle that. There are moments where you're going to be asked to do something that's outside your comfort zone that you've got to be able to handle in order for us to be successful. When you have those moments where you're frustrated about it, come talk to us. You may or may not like what we have to say, but we'll at least communicate it and stay ready so we don't have to get ready. And so we named it from the beginning, when we were going through our adversity, we talked about it, we discussed it. There's certainly not any magic. We don't have an invisibility cloak. We can't keep our players off of social media. We can't do all that stuff. But redirecting them, once you can tell that something's going on, hey, listen, we got to be able to focus on what we can control. We got to keep the main thing, the main thing, and that is this team, that is this group, that is our opportunity to do that. And when you have really good locker room culture, players, Sid Colson, you know, Sophie Cunningham, that can lead in that realm. I thought Natasha Howard was really good about that as well. Just in our locker room, just keeping everybody, you know, locked in on what is the main thing, what is the most important thing, and handling some dynamics that we as coaches didn't have to handle, but we just talked about it. And when things happen, like when Sid and Arie go down, it's like, this sucks. And, you know, our coaches were in. In the coaching locker room and having our moment, and it's like, okay, well, we can have our moment in here. We go in there and allow them to have their moment, but then we got to get to work. Like, how are we going to adjust? And then you know, and then Sophie goes down, and I'm having my moment in the locker room, and the coaches are like, get your shit together. Like, we got to go in there. We got to. You know, so, I mean, we just. We talked about it. We've been dealt a shitty hand, and we got to play it anyway. But the thing that I know about this group is that we are going to fight and we are going to claw and we are going to give everything that we have every single day, and we're not going to allow you to do less than that.
- [68:50]
B
Right? I mean, well, even with the injury bug, even with all that, you know, you guys got handed, you finish six, you make the playoffs, 24, 20 records, you pushed Vegas to game five of the semis. I would say that all the adversity, like, uniquely prepared you for this playoff run. I feel like you guys, watching you against Atlanta, which wasn't an easy series, it gave you a little confidence, and now you're like, shit, might as well see what happens again. Might as well go, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, uniquely prepared you. And even. I mean, well, quick question. Have you watched Game five?
- [69:25]
A
No, I haven't watched it.
- [69:26]
B
I didn't think so.
- [69:27]
A
I didn't think.
- [69:28]
B
I'm like, I was. Cause I was like. As I was like, oh, I wonder if she's watched Game five. I asked myself. I'm like, I've never watched any of those games. Any game I've lost in that way. Like. Like, season ending, whatever. No, but even when, you know, Kelsey Mitchell, who gets like, whatever the happened to her, I forget the name of it. Even when that happens. That's the middle of the third quarter, so you guys are already down, like, half your roster. You lose, arguably, you know, the key to your team at that point, like, the engine, and you even continue to fight. You push the game to overtime. And then obviously, in overtime, everything happened. But I mean, how. How do you. When you reflect on this season and the run I already kind of brought up, it reminded me a little bit of 2012. You guys lose Katie Douglas in the semis. You find a way to beat, you know, the monster that at that time is Minnesota. When you reflect, like, how do you. When you look back on it, like, I know you didn't win a championship, but it still feels like a success. So basically, how do you reflect on this past season?
- [70:30]
A
Yeah, I just. I have a lot of gratitude because our group, you know, number one, great human beings, you know, selfless human beings, they really embraced, you know, our mantra of we over me and. And they didn't care, you know, who got the credit. They knew obviously who was going to get the ball in certain situations, but they also knew and understood each individual's value to our opportunity to be successful, and they bought into that. They stayed ready. I think Bree Turner was a prime example of that. She was somebody who didn't play a lot, wasn't in rotation for most of the second half of the season, and then was instrumental in our success, you know, in the. In the playoffs, you know, defensively. And I just think that everybody valued one another in a way that allowed them to come together, you know, from a. From a staff and leadership standpoint. We were always just putting one foot in front of the other, like, let's get creative. What can we do here? You know, how can we put our team in position to be successful? What do we have to adjust on the defensive end to just give ourselves a chance, you know, and we took ownership of it, and we took it as a challenge, you know, And I think that, you know, when Kelsey went down, it was an interesting time because I went out there and everybody was like, oh, she's just cramping. She's just cramping. And so I'm like, okay, well, like, get everybody in, you know, into the huddles. We got to talk about what we're going to do now. And. And then I see the stretcher go out, and I'm like, it's. That's not just, like. Well, that's not just cramping, you know, and we could have very easily imploded right there, you know, and didn't. And in fact, you know, it's. It's a tie ballgame with, what, 20 seconds and a loose ball foul call, and it might not even gone to overtime. So, you know, it's just. I'm just really proud of our group, the character of who they are, the competitive spirit that they continue to show. And my hope, obviously, we're going to bring back a certain core of this group, but my hope is that that was a foundational level of what it takes. That group that we know is returning, you know, that that group takes with them and takes ownership of. This is what it's going to take for us to be successful. And then they run with that.
- [72:43]
B
Absolutely. Well, from the resilience you guys showed to the run you went on, I feel like everybody was cheering for you in a different way. The way you kept. Whether it was like the bench involved, like they were just as much in the game as the Actual players to the veterans who, you know, Odyssey Sims, Ariel Power, Shea Petty. People that haven't necessarily gotten the opportunities they probably wanted in the last couple years. Getting them involved, getting them ready. And then of course, like Kelsey Aaliyah, the way they were playing. Just what you guys did, I think, for you, for your staff. So impressive. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. I would ask you, like, what's next, but I know it's USA Basketball and I'm really excited that happens very shortly, like a couple weeks or a week very soon.
- [73:29]
A
Yes.
- [73:29]
B
So, yeah. So thanks for coming on and I will. I'll see you soon.
- [73:33]
A
Yeah. Appreciate it. Thank you.
- [73:37]
B
That was Stephanie White. Super interesting just to hear her story, how she ended up in coaching, how she was almost a pilot. Like what? I'm like, steph, you need to go get that license back. That'd be so dope. But yeah, I think she can really kind of give other former players, provide them with a blueprint and just all she learned. And I love how she said players are at 25,000ft, assistants have to be at 50, but then head coaches have to be like 75 and above. That makes so much sense. It also makes sense why she wanted to be a pilot. Maybe. Anyways, hope you guys enjoyed. I know I did. And we have another coach next week, so stay tuned. See you guys then.
- [74:21]
This episode is a co production of two GetHer and Vox Media. Our producers are Tommy Alter, Jason Gallagher, Richie Bozick, Jess Clarendon and Melanie Carter.
- [74:33]
Support for this show comes from Chase. If you're a fan of women's sports, you're always looking for ways to get closer to the action. And your Chase card can get you exactly that. With a Chase card, you can experience more. That means access to pre sales, preferred seating and more savings. Unlock benefits that let you skip lines and turn a game you wouldn't miss for the world into a truly unforgettable experience. For more information about how to step into the world of more with Chase experiences, visit chase.com experiences benefits available only to eligible Chase card holders. Deposit and credit card products provided by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Terms, conditions, restrictions and limitations apply.