The Arike Ogunbowale Interview

Summary

Bird's Eye View with Sue Bird: The Arike Ogunbowale Interview Release Date: June 13, 2025

In this compelling episode of Bird's Eye View with Sue Bird, Hall of Famer Sue Bird delves deep into the career and personal journey of Arike Ogunbowale, a two-time WNBA All-Star and renowned basketball talent. The conversation spans Arike's early athletic endeavors, her collegiate triumphs, transition to the professional league, and her current role evolving within the Dallas Wings. Below is a detailed summary capturing the essence of their candid discussion.

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Introduction to Arike Ogunbowale

Sue Bird sets the stage by highlighting Arike Ogunbowale’s pivotal role in high-pressure game situations, emphasizing her consistent ability to perform when the stakes are highest. Arike shares her initial self-doubts with a poignant reflection:

Arike Ogunbowale [00:00]: "What I'm like, am I washed? Am I washed? Can I even get to the basket?"

Sue acknowledges Arike's current challenges as a veteran on a rebuilding Dallas Wings team grappling with injuries:

Sue Bird [00:14]: "She's in a new chapter of her career where she has to take on a new role, being a vet on a new look Dallas Wings team that is still figuring it out."

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Early Athletic Career and Recruitment

Arike discusses her dual-sport background, balancing soccer and basketball, and the tough choice to focus solely on basketball during high school. Reflecting on her athletic family, she credits her brother’s perseverance as a significant influence on her own work ethic:

Arike Ogunbowale [09:08]: "His story is kind of different because I was always, like, top five in the country, like, best in the state... He literally had to work from the bottom at every situation he was at."

Her recruitment journey led her to Notre Dame, where she faced unexpected challenges, including playing behind established teammates. This period was marked by significant personal growth and resilience.

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Collegiate Success and National Championship

Arike recounts her transformative senior year at Notre Dame, leading her team to a national championship with memorable buzzer-beaters. She highlights the mental fortitude required to perform under immense pressure:

Sue Bird [05:43]: "Do you want to explain what happened?"

Arike Ogunbowale [05:57]: "Yeah... I just stuck my foot out and it just happened to get misdirected and went into the stands."

The discussion touches on the infamous 2018 NCAA tournament run, where Arike and her teammate Jackie achieved unprecedented back-to-back buzzer-beaters, securing their legacy and Arike’s eventual role as a trailblazer in clutch moments.

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Transition to the WNBA and Early Professional Years

Upon entering the WNBA, Arike shares her initial struggles adapting to the professional level’s higher IQ and physicality:

Arike Ogunbowale [32:23]: "It was thinking more IQ for me because I felt up to speed... players were smart. Like, they were always one step ahead."

Despite a rocky start, she underscores her continuous improvement and adaptation to new team dynamics, ultimately finding her stride and becoming a key scorer.

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Current Season and Team Dynamics with the Dallas Wings

Arike discusses her role as a veteran on the Dallas Wings, a team undergoing significant transitions with new players and a fresh coaching system. She emphasizes the importance of team chemistry and mutual support amidst the growing pains:

Arike Ogunbowale [40:53]: "I think the best thing is that we actually like each other... We're struggling, but we're struggling together."

She highlights the impact of integrating new talent like Paige Beckers, praising her skills and drawing parallels to her own experiences, fostering a supportive and collaborative environment.

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Personal Growth and Mentality

A significant portion of the interview focuses on Arike’s personal development, particularly her efforts to control her emotions on and off the court. She reflects on how past setbacks, like missing critical free throws in the national championship, have sharpened her focus and resilience:

Arike Ogunbowale [28:13]: "Literally, I say that in my head every time I shoot a free throw."

Sue Bird and Arike engage in a thoughtful dialogue about the balance between technical skills and mental toughness, underscoring the importance of leadership and emotional regulation in Arike's evolving role.

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All-Star and USA Team Experience

Arike shares insights from her experiences playing in the WNBA All-Star games and representing the USA team. She describes the camaraderie and competitive spirit that define these high-profile events:

Arike Ogunbowale [50:18]: "It's really chill. Like, I feel like everybody tries not to, like, overdo it."

She also recounts memorable moments, including confrontations and playful exchanges that highlight the unique dynamics of All-Star showcases.

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Future Outlook and Areas for Growth

Looking ahead, Arike identifies key areas for personal and professional growth, particularly in leadership and maintaining composure during intense moments. She speaks candidly about her aspirations to continue impacting her team positively:

Arike Ogunbowale [55:44]: "Probably just my emotions. I'm a very emotional player. Like, getting ejected... I'm trying to control my emotions, like, I'm very emotional."

Sue Bird praises Arike’s dedication to self-improvement and her strategic approach to overcoming challenges, reinforcing her status as a pivotal figure in the WNBA.

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Conclusion

Sue Bird wraps up the interview by highlighting Arike’s impressive trajectory and her balanced focus on both athletic prowess and personal growth. She commends Arike's ability to maintain a calm and confident demeanor amidst adversity, solidifying her role as a leader on the Dallas Wings.

Sue Bird [56:31]: "So I really enjoyed that. All right. This episode is a co-production of Together and Vox Media..."

The episode concludes with heartfelt acknowledgments and a celebration of Arike’s enduring impact on and off the court.

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Key Quotes

• Arike Ogunbowale [00:00]: "Am I washed? Can I even get to the basket?"
• Sue Bird [09:08]: "So you were in Milwaukee."
• Arike Ogunbowale [28:13]: "Literally, I say that in my head every time I shoot a free throw."
• Sue Bird [55:44]: "What areas of growth for you personally are you focused on right now?"
• Arike Ogunbowale [55:54]: "I'm very emotional. Like, getting ejected... I have to try to keep my emotion in check."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Bird's Eye View with Sue Bird offers an in-depth exploration of Arike Ogunbowale's journey through basketball, emphasizing her resilience, leadership, and continuous pursuit of excellence. For fans and newcomers alike, Arike's story serves as an inspiring testament to overcoming challenges and evolving both as an athlete and an individual.

Transcript

[Arike Ogunbowale]

What I'm like, am I washed? Am I washed? Can I even get to the basket?

[Sue Bird]

Hey everybody. Welcome back to Bird's Eye View. There is often a ton of debate about the player you want with the ball in their hands when the game is on the line and Arike Gumuali has proven she is that player again and again. But she's in a new chapter of her career where she has to take on a new role, being a vet on a new look Dallas Wings team that is still figuring it out. I think you'll enjoy hearing her navigate it all from losing games to losing both her point guards to injury. Paige Beckers will be back soon, but sadly Ty Harris is out for the remainder of the season. Plus, she weighs in on what's more important, having a great handle or being a great shooter. I think I'm actually still torn on that one. But first up, Sue's View. All right, so to start off today, I'm going to circle back to something I highlighted last week. Both the Lynx and the Liberty are still undefeated at 9 and oh, and by the time this pod drops, we'll know if the Lynx were able to push that to 10 and 0 as per history. Like I said from last week, we already know that a 90 start gives you a great chance to get to the finals. Only one team out of four didn't get there after starting 90 and if they get to 10 and oh, it's basically a foregone conclusion that they'll be in the finals. So now I'm actually just more interested in how long is this going to go. Minnesota plays LA on Saturday, Vegas mid June, LA again later in June. New York's got Indiana coming up, Atlanta coming up, Phoenix coming up, and then at Seattle on June 22nd. So I got my eyeballs on that also from last week with Kate. I called the Valkyries Euroleague lite and I just wanted to explain that a little bit. They have a about five or six European players on their roster. There's been some transactions recently, so obviously this is in reference to the makeup of our team, but it's also about the mentality that they bring. The thing about European players and Euro League teams is they don't give a who you are. Okay, I played in your league for a very long time. I played on some. I mean you think, you think the WNBA teams now have super teams. My teams overseas were like proper super teams. They were crazy talented and every time we went on the road for a year league game, you could tell they did not care. They didn't care if they were, quote unquote, technically less talented. They were well coached, they were versatile and they made life hell. They also play every possession like it's their last and I mean that quite literally. Whether they are up 20 or whether they are down 20, if there is time on the clock, they are going to play that possession so much. So if there's a dead ball, teams will call a timeout. In that scenario, to just get one last play in like that is how much they play to the very last horn. So point being, from the jump, I knew this was never going to be an easy team to play against. But to their credit, they're off to a 4 and 5 start as an expansion team and they seem to be figuring things out quick. To give you like an understanding of that, the last expansion team only won five games total. The bummer about this is some of those European players will be leaving the Valkyries. Julie Van Leeuw will be playing with Belgium. Cecilia Zandelosini will be playing for Italy in Eurobasket. So they're going to lose them, but they've signed Ariel Powers, who's a vet who's been waiting to get back in the league. And they also brought back Leticia Ami here. There is one player on the Valkyries who's having career highs across the board that will have to keep it up in order to keep Valhalla going, and that's Veronica Burton. She is averaging 12 points, four rebounds, five assists, a steal and a half per game. Her shooting percentage isn't actually that high, but she's getting those 12 points on just eight attempts and that's because she's averaging almost six free throws a game and she shoots 90% from the three throw lines. So there's that. She's playing super confident and super aggressive and it's been fun to watch. Last but not least, I just want to send some love to the vanderkwigs. Is that what we're calling them? Ali Quigley has recently officially announced her retirement. She joked about an Irish goodbye. We have been waiting, Allie. So congratulations on an amazing career. I remember when we drafted you in Seattle, you did a quick stint in Phoenix before coming back. We actually got to play together and you could tell, you could tell. I loved what you said about Ann Meyers telling you that you were going to have a 10 to 15 year career because there was something. So it was always wonderful to watch you grow in this league and to have the success that you had. The three point contests, six man of the year and then ultimately a championship in Chicago. So, Allie, congratulations. Sadly, this brings us to the other half. Courtney Vander Sloot tore her ACL this past week. Sloot, really? Just sending you tons of love. You're going to be fine now. You're in an elite club. So welcome. But of course, really, really, really tough to hear that. But also to both of you, congratulations on your new baby girl, Jenna. Okay, real quick. All Star voting opened on June 12, so go vote for your favorites now because the fan vote accounts for 55, 0 50%. And speaking of, let's get to miss All Star MVP herself. Arike Ngubawale is a two time All Star MVP, four time All Star 2020 scoring champion, and quietly an elite defender who led the league in steals last season. She also finds ways to bring her love of soccer into the game, whether the refs like it or not. Do you remember the time you got ejected at halftime?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yes.

[Sue Bird]

Not the one where I'm talking about against us.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Is that when I kicked the ball? Yeah. Yeah. I really tried to stop it with my feet. I feel like.

[Sue Bird]

Do you want to explain what happened?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. So, okay, I play soccer. Like, I'm always juggling the ball and doing this and that and like, okay, they shot or I don't know what happened. Maybe it was a long shot.

[Sue Bird]

I shoot. Yeah. I shot it from half court.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

And then like the ball was coming so I stuck my foot out. And it just so happened to get misdirected and go into the stands.

[Sue Bird]

Like, you know what's funny about that moment? I know. I remember. And what's funny about that moment is we didn't know until we came back out.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Really? Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Like, I didn't because, like, you know, throw the ball. Our locker room was like the other way. So we're all just walking back and then we come out there like, all right, our R is done. She's not playing. And we were like, what? She got ejected? We were like, no. We were also like, yes. But we were like, wait, what happened? We had no idea. And then they showed us afterwards.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Did it look like I kicked it?

[Sue Bird]

No, it looked like you, like what.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

You said, stuck my foot out.

[Sue Bird]

It looked like you stuck your foot out and just. And it was coming fast and it just.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

So you got. Got on that one.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I really did.

[Sue Bird]

So I bring that up. Well, A, because I was there, but also because I don't know if you know, but something we have in common is I played soccer also and kind of had to make a choice.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

So for me, it was after my sophomore year in high school, and it was just that moment where it was like, all right, you need to focus now.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Right.

[Sue Bird]

So I'm just curious, like, what was your soccer career? How serious were you in it?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I would skip bass. Like, AAU tournaments. For soccer.

[Sue Bird]

For soccer?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. Like, I was traveling all over, and I won some state championships, and then I stopped after freshman year. Like, I went to high school, and they wanted me to do both. And I'm just like, I don't. I don't.

[Sue Bird]

You're also in Milwaukee.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

So I'm like, you got to do the elements.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I know, right? But it was fun. Like, playing in the rain, playing in the cold. You wear your gloves. Like, it was just fun.

[Sue Bird]

You had a turtleneck.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. But it got to the point where I didn't feel like doing all that anymore. And, like, I just had to stick to basketball. But soccer, definitely. Like, I always tell, like, if I talk to parents and stuff, like, have your kids play. Like, especially my brother, too. You know, he plays NFL. Like, just the footwork you had to work on, like, shielding your body. That's probably why I get all these offensive fouls. But, like, being able to keep people off you, like, I feel like soccer helps so much, but it was definitely a hard choice. Soccer. Soccer's fun.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, soccer is fun. And I agree. I would say the same thing, advice wise, like, play as many sports as you can. And I do like soccer because of, like, the footwork. And the other thing I feel like I noticed was, like, later in my career, I was like, oh, yeah. I guess I did learn kind of like my, like, spatial awareness, like, how to, like, be, like, in formation, I guess, with other people. I feel like you learned that in soccer also.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Even kind of passing, like, you like to lead. Like, that's like the same as basketball type thing. Just, like, knowing where to place it, where your team's gonna be. Yeah, that's right.

[Sue Bird]

Was there. Was there ever, like, a moment where. Was it always basketball or.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, it was just really just basketball and soccer.

[Sue Bird]

Okay.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

So, yeah. You already brought up your brother, so I imagine that you just had a lot of influence. You know, you have a super athletic family. Your mom played softball. I read your brother Dari is on the Texans. Your cousin diamond, he was a McDonald's All American with you.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

He was really good. He was, like, top five in the country at a point.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So I guess the question is, like, who was given who the buckets? Like, who? Growing up, like, What?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Growing up, it was definitely my brothers and my cousin, but now if me and my brother played, it's definitely me. For sure. For sure.

[Sue Bird]

Hopefully he's watching this.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I know, right? But, yeah, it was very competitive growing up, for sure.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I know. So. So what's that like to have, like, your sibling who's also a professional athlete? How did he influence you? How did he influence you growing up?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I mean, his story is kind of different because I was always, like, top five in the country, like, best in the state. And he was like, well, he played soccer, like, so he didn't really switch to playing football to, like, sophomore year. High school.

[Sue Bird]

High school, yeah.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

So he was a walk on. Like, he was a walk on at Wisconsin. Didn't get a scholarship till, like, his last year. It wasn't drafted. And he's, like, been in the league for, like, eight years. So, like, really just watching him grind, like. Cause I mean, like I said, I was always top, so, you know, I knew I would get certain things, but he literally had to work from the bottom at every situation he was at. So just kind of seeing him, like, you know, made me hungry just watching, like, two different, you know, stories. But we both ended up in the same place, which is amazing.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, it sounds like a mindset.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Just kind of.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, that's cool. The other thing I think is cool is that again, you're both pro athletes, so what's the. I mean, I see you on social media with each other all the time and just like, the support. So what is it like to have somebody who's essentially going through very similar things at the same time?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, it's perfect. I mean, he's three years older than me, so, like, when I got to the league, I took his financial advisor, did everything that he did. Like, I'm like, all right. I really don't even have to think about it because if he's doing it, I'm going to do it, and he'll tell me to do it, like. And I trust him, obviously. So it's super easy for me being the younger sibling. I'm sure it's different for him, but I literally just can follow and do exactly what he does. And he's a really smart guy. And like I said, we're only three years apart, so he's like my best friend. And he knows, like, he knows days where he should, like, not respond or not do anything. And, you know, parents, they're going to be doing it. So he's like, I know mom's probably on Your phone. Like, I'll talk to you later. So, like, he just understands me. I know I can go, you know, talk to him about the ins and outs and, like, he knows the league. Like, he probably knows every single player in the league like, whenever he plays and so he watches and everything. Yeah. So just having that is definitely a blessing, that relationship.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. All right, so you obviously have a standout career in high school. You're getting recruited. You ultimately choose Notre Dame. What was the. Like, tell me about your recruitment.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, it was. It was cool. It was fun. I really, actually really liked Ohio State. I had a ball.

[Sue Bird]

Wait, so who was there?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Coach McGuff. McGuff, yeah. And, like, Kelsey was there and her dad was assistant coach. Yeah, I had, like, that was my favorite visit. It was so fun. Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Well, what about partying?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I wasn't partying for Milwaukee, so I'm like.

[Sue Bird]

I like to know it's an option.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Frats and all that. I'm like, golly, like, y' all be out here lit. So I went there, like, the week before my Notre Dame visit, and I actually didn't have fun on my Notre Dame visit. I was asleep at the football game. Like, they definitely didn't think I was committed there. Like, when I committed, everybody was so surprised. But I think just like, the coaches and just, like, you know how they were with me, and they would always pull up, and it just felt like it was a home away from home kind of. And it was close. Like, three and a half hours away, but obviously academics. Both of my parents were, like, teacher and a principal, so they definitely wanted me to go to a good school. But, yeah, just kind of had everything I needed.

[Sue Bird]

Wait, so who was your host when you went to Notre Dame?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Jewel.

[Sue Bird]

Okay.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

And then she ended up leaving.

[Sue Bird]

So that. That's exactly where I was going with this because I as. I was kind of just like, researching some stuff and checking out different stats and, like, your college career, all of a sudden it clicked. And I interviewed Jewel a couple of weeks ago. Now, all of a sudden, it clicked. I was like, wait a minute.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, she was supposed to be there.

[Sue Bird]

So you went to Notre Dame thinking you were going to be a freshman year?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

She was going to be a senior, and I was going to be a freshman. Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

So were you when she decided to leave? Were you bummed? Did you care? I mean, sometimes when you're young, you don't realize.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, it was. I really didn't realize. I was just like, okay, like, I'm not going to know any of these Other girls and not like, I know her, know her, but I definitely was looking forward to playing with her. Like, obviously she was, but then a part of me was like, I mean, it is what it is. Maybe I'll get to play. But that kind of was rough in the beginning, but I ended up playing at, you know, after a while. But, yeah, I was, like, iffy. Like, I definitely wanted to play with her, but, I mean, I understood she ended up going number one. So.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I mean. Yeah.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. So I guess it worked out.

[Sue Bird]

It worked out for her. What do you mean? It was rough. Freshman year was rough.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, yeah. Came off the bench. I was expecting to start, you know, like, you top five, like, getting recruited by everybody. Like, I'm about to come in and play. I was playing behind, like, Madison Cable and Hannah Huffman. Like, that's no say to them. It's just like, shout out to them. Like, they were great. And then Marina's sister Michaela, too. Shout out Mikayla. I love her, but.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, you play with both mabries?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I played with them.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, you were surrounded.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

They used to be in the locker room fighting.

[Sue Bird]

That's that New Jersey.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. I'm so happy I didn't have a sister. Literally, just watching them, I'm just like, wow, this is a lot.

[Sue Bird]

But really, what happened? So you're playing behind these players. What's that like in practice every day.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I mean, it's tough because it's like you're thinking that you should be playing. Like, you're thinking, like, I could have went to any school and probably started, like. And it's easy to not trust the process because it's just all these boys in your head, and at that point you're 18. Like, I'm supposed to be playing in the game. Like, literally there was games. I'm playing single digits. Like, I was just like, what is this? Like, I wanted to leave. I wanted to leave. I knew my parents were never going to let me leave. But I was just chatting like I was going to get out of there. But it was definitely a rough, rough freshman year for sure.

[Sue Bird]

Um, well, when you look back on your numbers, it is pretty crazy because, like, you go from freshman to junior year, and in those three years, it was just like a steady increase. Obviously, the minutes increase, which stands out right away. But even your numbers, like, you go. I mean, listen, your freshman year, you average. I think it was like 19 or 20 minutes. So it wasn't, like, terrible. But I hear what you're saying, but you still average double digits.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

And then you go. So you go from 11 your freshman year, 16, then 21 your junior year. So jumps. Yeah, I know you, like, steady. Yeah. And then senior year was about the same as.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Right.

[Sue Bird]

But for those three years, because that's going to lead to the national championship. Like, how would you. Like, how would you characterize your growth from. From one year to the next?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, it was huge. Like, after I got over sulking about not playing, like, I was like, all right, Coach McGraw is a Hall of Fame coach. Like, I'm obviously not playing for a reason. So I was chubby my freshman year. If you could look back at, like, freshman year, high school, I was. I was. I was eating good in Milwaukee. So it's like, after freshman year, I went home like my mom, because, you know, you have those two months before you have to go. So, like, I literally lost, like, 15 pounds. I was in the gym, like, two times a day. Like, there's a gym across the street from me, so my dad had to keep to it. So I was literally in the gym, like, two, three times a day, came back, lost 15 pounds, and just, like, got better. Like, I was with my trainer, Darrell, who was, like, my best friend, so we could go to the gym at any point, and we were just grinding for that whole two months. So I think that's where I really, like, locked in. All right, this is what you're going to do. You know what you want to do. Like, now it's up to you to do it type thing.

[Sue Bird]

Was there anything that you changed or added to your actual game, or was it just, like.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, definitely. I would do heavy ball a lot. Like, that summer, I literally, like, not just, like, the. You know, the basketball heavy ball. Like, I was using, like, the. What are they called? The little balls that you actually use in the gym.

[Sue Bird]

Like a medicine ball?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, medicine ball. Like, I was.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, you were using a medicine ball.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I was using a medicine ball. That thing doesn't bounce in videos, too. Like, it doesn't bounce. So I'm like, everything I did with the regular ball, I would start doing with the heavy ball, and then I'd do the regular ball. So my handle got so tight that summer, and just more shots and stuff like that. But definitely, like, getting my handle right was big.

[Sue Bird]

Okay. So I actually have this argument with a friend of mine often, and it's like, what do you think is more important, Having a tight handle or being a great shooter? Like, especially when it comes to your game, like, which gets you the other.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

That's really tough I think shooting would probably edge it out, but, like, how I'm guarded, I need to be able to maneuver. So it's like create space. It's kind of 50, 50, because you gotta be able to knock the shot down. But I'm not really open a lot where it's just like, knock it down. But I have to be able to knock that one down. But just like getting out of traps and hedges, like, I have to be able to have that tight handle. So that's tough. What do you think?

[Sue Bird]

So I think it's like, if I could only have one man. I know it is tough.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It's tough.

[Sue Bird]

I said ball handling. Cause I was like, similar.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

That's a point guard.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. I was like, if I can't dribble, it doesn't matter where. It's like, if I could shoot. If I can't shoot as well, then.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Figure that out or not sag off.

[Sue Bird]

But I could figure that out as long as I had a handle. But it is. It is a tough question. That's why I want to ask it. I don't think there's an answer.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Right.

[Sue Bird]

But take it back to Marina for a second. Because you guys. You guys have a special relationship. It was really cool to watch, like, watch you in college. Then you played with each other in Dallas a couple of years ago. So, like, what's your guys bond, like?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I mean, we lived together for junior and senior year in an apartment. We were actually dogs. Like, we end up like two weeks after we moved in. We both got dogs. Like, it was actually horrible in college. In college.

[Sue Bird]

Who allowed you to do that?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

We had freedom. That's our first. Because the first two years we were on campus, so we moved off campus and just went wild. But, yeah, that's like my sister, my best friend. Like, just like. Because we kind of had the same similar thing. Like, we both didn't start. We both were top recruits coming in. So, like, we were in the gym a lot too. Like, when we got back after that break, we went home. Like, me and her were in the gym a lot, and we kind of built that chemistry. But yeah, we kind of going through similar situations right now a little bit.

[Sue Bird]

So she was talking shit then, too.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, always.

[Sue Bird]

It's just always been.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

And we would have the best. Like, anytime we play pickup in the summer, like, we're so competitive, we want to be on different teams. So, like, we'll make the team, stand there, play like eight, 10 games, because we just. One will win. One will win. You know, we both don't want to leave on a loss. So, yeah, she's one of the most competitive people, and she definitely influenced me a lot, too. Like, she's such a hard worker. Like, her whole family, like, they just work, and I kind of saw that my freshman year, and I got in the gym with her, too, but, like, yeah, she's a great person. Great competitor. Like, super, super competitive. Super competitive. And she really knows. She really knows ball. Like, her basketball IQ is really high, so. Yeah, that's my girl.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. I mean, so that brings us to the. To the run, the infamous 2018 NCAA run. Heading in to that tournament because, like, your freshman year, I think you guys lost in the Sweet 16.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Then you creeped up a loss in Elite Eight your sophomore year. Both times at Stanford. I saw that. Oh, my God. Wait, both times at Rupp Arena. Kentucky.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Oh, yeah. Y.

[Sue Bird]

So both times were in Kentucky. Okay. So, yeah. So now it's your junior year. You've kind of experienced that your first two years. What, like, how did you feel going into that tournament, personally?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Honestly? Yeah, I mean, we kind of were underdogs. Cause, like, we had three ACL tears that year. So it's like we literally were playing six people. So as a player that likes to shoot, like, Coach McGraw literally had no choice but to leave me, Marina, Jackie, in, like, we could be doing anything. It's like, we literally play six people. So I think having the freedom really, really helped us because, like, we would make a lot of stupid mistakes, and Coach McGraw would probably look down at the bench and be like, shit, who am I about to put in? So it's just, like, I think just having kind of having that freedom. But we also had trust with the coach, and we would never cross the line. Obviously, we respect coach a lot, but, yeah, that run was crazy. Like, we. We weren't not expecting to win, but I don't think people were expecting this because we only had a couple players. We had undefeated teams coming into the, you know, Final Four, and we always lost to UConn. That was our first time ever beating UConn. Like, every time we played them in the. The December time, they literally busted. So, like, yeah, it was crazy.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So you had, like, you said you did have a lot of injuries. But it's interesting looking back now, when you look at that roster, you have five WNBA players, like, current. So there's you, Marina, Jessica Shepherd's back in league now. Breezy Turner and then. And Katherine west belt.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yes.

[Sue Bird]

So, like, how old is she? She's got to Be.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

She's a year older than me. It's her first time in the league.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

And a rookie, and she's playing like, it's crazy how the league works. You can be out the league for seven years now. You a active starter on a good team. Like, the league is insane. That's why it's, like, when people get cut, I'm like, bro, you can literally be in the league next year and literally get starter minutes. Like, you never know. You just got to keep working.

[Sue Bird]

I know. How hype are you for her?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, that was amazing. And then her sister is in the league the same year. Like, that's so dope for her family, but she deserves it. She's always been working. Even, you know, after she graduated, she played overseas. You know, she would be in different leagues, and she never stopped. So I love that she's finally getting this opportunity.

[Sue Bird]

That's cool. All right, so back to the run. We get to the final four. You get to the final four. Listen, everybody knows it's back to back buzzer beaters. I actually saw a quote you had where you were like, yeah, I love when March comes around. I'm reminded of this, like, amazing tag every time. And you will forever, because this is, like, I don't know that anyone's ever gonna have that happen to them again. I mean, it's okay to have. Or it's one thing to have one buzzer beat, but back to back. So that's pretty incredible, especially the national championship one. It's like, literally one of the craziest also. So I want to kind of go through, not, like, deep dive. But I just interviewed Jackie recently, so it's. So during the semifinal, Jackie actually balled out.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, she went crazy. At, like, 32.

[Sue Bird]

She went crazy. And she described it as knowing going into the game that UConn probably wasn't going to guard her. They were going to give her the shot. And the first thing she said when I asked her, like, what changed going in that game? She was like, Ariki was in the locker room hyping me up. She's like. Her quote was, I remember her gassing me in the locker room before. Just go, shoot it. Have fun. Be you.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

How did you know to do that? Like, what did you see in her? Or did you just know how they were going to guard her?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I mean, Jackie's been a killer, but, like, she just always used to be, like, kind of shy. Ish. Like, you. Like, she's really good, but she kind of didn't really have that confidence. I mean, that's how I would describe it. But, like, I just know, like, they were backing up off her because, like, she wouldn't shoot it a lot, but, like, she could shoot it. We saw it in practice. So I was just in the locker room, like, hey, listen. Like, they sag off. Shoot it like, nobody's gonna care. Shoot the ball. Like, we literally need you to shoot the ball. We need you to score, and you very capable of doing that. So just go crazy. Like, we all behind you. And she really did that.

[Sue Bird]

All right, so then now we get to the end of the game. Just take me through the play.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. So they. Well, this is the championship, right?

[Sue Bird]

No, no, sorry. So semifinals still against UConn? Yeah.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

We're now at the end of the game. Was. Is it tied?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, it was tied because we were in overtime because me and Jackie both missed free throws after. Not missing free throws the whole game. Yeah, it was actually crazy. Yeah, We. Wait. We were up five points with 21 seconds left. That was the most. Like, I really couldn't believe that comeback. Just 21 seconds ago, Marina was popping her jersey, and now we going into overtime. Like, I was like, yeah, no, actually on the bench.

[Sue Bird]

Like, that could stun you. So how did you guys handle the overtime?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

No, they were talking me off a cliff at, like, when it was in the bench, I was just. I couldn't believe it because I'm like, we never beat them. I'm like, we're giving them another chance. Five more minutes. Like, we had the game.

[Sue Bird]

Like, all right, so you go into the overtime.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yes.

[Sue Bird]

So we'll get to the shot in a second. But now we're in the overtime real fast. How did you bounce? How did you. Okay, you're going crazy now it's time to play the overtime. Is there a moment where somebody settles you down? You settle yourself down? Like, how does that work for you?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It was definitely the team. Like, Marina, Coach Neil. Like, they definitely. Cause I couldn't even think of nothing. But we blew it. I'm like, it's over. Like, I couldn't even think ahead to the overtime. Like, it's over. But they. We got it together. I got it together at least.

[Sue Bird]

Okay, so end of overtime, tie game.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

So Yalls ball.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. What was going on? Like, I think. Who was it, Marina or Jess? Like, drove a little bit, and then she had the ball, and, like, she was looking for me and gave it to me. Yeah. And then they switched, and Gabby. Well, Gabby was on me, and it didn't look like I was getting past her. Like, her arms were like this. And then somebody came and screamed and then Fee switched on me. And then like I was already kind of going downhill. So I just did a little in and out and shot and it went in. But they definitely almost hit that shot when they hit it to Katie Lou. And I'm telling people to scoot up. I'm just so shocked. I didn't even know what to do. I held no defense and Katie really, really could have hit that shot.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I know. Jackie talked about that also. She was like, we almost celebrated too much.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

No, Katie L. Jumping around. That ball just went over our heads. I think the only person that was back was Jess. Like, if Jess wasn't back there and contested, she probably would have hit that shot.

[Sue Bird]

You know what I love about your shot? There's a lot of things actually, but something that's kind of like a detail that people might not notice. You just. You had to take what was available. So a lot of people, I think nowadays get caught up in that. Like, players get caught up at times, like in the analytics of the game.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Where it's like. Because in that scenario now you might think to yourself, like, oh, I'm right by the three point line.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Right.

[Sue Bird]

Let me just step back.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Right.

[Sue Bird]

And you just like had to take the best thing.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Right.

[Sue Bird]

Like that's where analytics. I always have this argument. People, like, sometimes it has to go out the door.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

You have to be so into all.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Of it, for sure.

[Sue Bird]

So to sell out to it, you never would have pulled.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

You might have driven or you might have stepped back.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Right.

[Sue Bird]

So I like that about it. You just like took what was available.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Right.

[Sue Bird]

So now we move on to the final.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Right. You get your team to the finals. And that game was crazy.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, it really was.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So now take me to that game. I'm going to quote Jackie again, because the setup here is Jackie's now inbounding it. Previous game, she was on the opposite side corner, crashing in if you miss. She said she was going in, though. So now Jackie's inbounding it. And she. The way she explained it, you know what? Jackie's inbounding it. Do you remember?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. We talked. I'm like, if you can't get it to hurt, pass me the ball.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Basically, I'm like, okay. That's what she said here.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. That you were going. Or she was looking for Jess Shepard.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. Because T, Big T, she filed out. So they put a rookie post in. So we like go to her, but then the coach's daughter. I forgot her name. She like right when Jackie got the ball, she backed up so you couldn't pass it to Jess. But her issue was she probably should have tried to do like when I ran past, she pushed up on Jackie, like, and Jackie was out to play.

[Sue Bird]

But regardless. So you kind of have to remix. Your whole team remixes. You get the ball and you're driving towards the corner.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

I mean, is it. Are you even thinking anything at that point?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I mean, I just know the time's going down. Like.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So it's almost like clear mind.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. It's just like.

[Sue Bird]

And you're like, I got to get.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

A couple of dribbles. It's like you got to shoot. Like you got to shoot at this point. That was crazy.

[Sue Bird]

That was crazy. It really was. So. Yeah. You have amazing moments, life changing moments. I've heard you talk about Kobe. Well, it started with the tweet.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Gave you some love. You went on the Ellen show.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. And then I met surprises you.

[Sue Bird]

I mean are you feel. Is this like out of body at this point?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

No, it really was like. And I'm still in college, so it's like I flew to la, like had a hotel. Then I met him and then I.

[Sue Bird]

You're like, I got a hotel.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

No. Right. Seriously, like a driver. And then after that I do dancing with the stars and I'm literally dance partners with me in South Bend all night. And then I fly to la, like first class. They give me a hotel, a car, money. I was like, I don't know what's going on here.

[Sue Bird]

I know, I heard. So I heard you got money. I didn't get paid.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, like they said I buy one. It was cause my dance ability. So they made it like it wasn't like for the course. Yeah, but it was like 115k.

[Sue Bird]

What'd you do with it?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I bought a lot of stuff. I saved, but I bought the first. I was shopping in LA. I bought some shoes for like $500. Like I don't even know where they are now.

[Sue Bird]

Like, need to get a bronze.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

First big purchase.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

But yeah, it was great.

[Sue Bird]

Would you ever think about what your life would have been if nil was a thing?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I try not to because it hurts. It hurts.

[Sue Bird]

You know what? I hear you. It hurts sometimes the same. Like sometimes the same.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Even if it isn't like the big things. Like just imagine what you'll get in your own town. Like not even the national stuff. And that probably would have happened too.

[Sue Bird]

Like, no, it would have been crazy.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

They're blessed now. That's great though. At least my kids will get to experience it.

[Sue Bird]

So the next year is your senior year. 2019. You guys get back to the finals. I know you don't want to talk about it, but do you still think about like that moment, the free throws that sadly you miss, which. Which kind of gave Baylor the win. Do you think about that often?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Literally, I say that in my head every time I shoot a free throw.

[Sue Bird]

Really? What do you say?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I just like. Like, especially if I'm shooting, it'll be like two shots. I'd be like, I think like national championship, like, because I missed one, made the other. So like, literally. I think it's ptsd. Literally every time I shoot a free throw, I think of missing that free throw.

[Sue Bird]

Wow.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It's. That's kind of sad. But it's like. I mean, pretty well. But it's just like I literally think of it every time I shoot my free throw.

[Sue Bird]

So are you. Are you thinking about it when you think about it? Is it motivating you in a way that like, focuses you?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yes.

[Sue Bird]

Okay.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

It's not like, I don't know, some people. Some people like to beat themselves up.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Nah, nah, it's not that. It's like I'm sharpens about it. It's just like you've been in this moment. Like you can knock these down, like. Cause you didn't before. So it's just like it locks me in for sure.

[Sue Bird]

Okay. All right. Interesting. Because. Yeah, that is interesting. So is there more pressure on those free throws or more pressure on Dancing with the Stars?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Dancing with the Stars. That was actually the most nerve wracking thing ever.

[Sue Bird]

Cause it's just like I could imagine.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Like I'll play in front of whoever. Like, I'm so comfortable.

[Sue Bird]

But it's like you're like, I don't know how to dance. I mean, now that you know how to dance.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, but not bad.

[Sue Bird]

Salsa or whatever.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Like, not the tango. Like that was actually insane. Definitely gained some respect for these dancers.

[Sue Bird]

Cause that's a lot you got to wear. Were you wearing those $500 sneakers? Weren't you wearing sneakers?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I wore sneakers for one of them. I had to wear heels for. I did the foxtrot. Like, why am I doing the foxtrot? But it was cool. Like, it was an experience. But like, you'll get to show your.

[Sue Bird]

Kids when they're making all that nil money. You'll be like, but. But did you do this I did this.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

But did you, Fox?

[Sue Bird]

They're gonna be laughing at you. Only for 100k, Mom. Oh, my God. All right, so senior season ends. We got the draft. You go fifth. Well, first of all, like, walk me through draft day.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. I honestly didn't know where I was going. I really thought I was going six to Minnesota. And, like, I just did something with USA where Cheryl was coaching, so, like, I kind of had a relationship with her. Like, we were cool there, and I'm like, I'm probably gonna go to Minnesota. Minnesota. I don't even remember talking to Dallas. I think I talked to him once, but, like, I wasn't expecting getting paid F5 and I didn't know anything about Dallas. So, you know Texas.

[Sue Bird]

Wait, wait, wait. So you didn't think you were going to get picked higher? There wasn't a part of you that's like a little maybe like, mad that you didn't go higher?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Honestly, not really. Like, I was. I really thought I was going six. Like, I kind of had my mind made up. Like, I don't know. I didn't really. I didn't expect. Because I knew Jackie was going to go number one. Like, because I was hearing that everywhere. And then Asia, you know, she was really good at the time, so, like, I knew she was going to go to. And after that, I had no idea.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, interesting. Yeah, I just, for some reason, like, assumed. Give it just given how it played out and you. And there's like, some good players that went ahead. It's not like. Yeah, but it was our draft was. Yeah. And then Katie Lou.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Oh, Katie Lou.

[Sue Bird]

And then you. And then Fee.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

By the way, if you go second, you could have been in New York.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I know, right?

[Sue Bird]

That's crazy.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. But I'm like, the thing is, I like New York, but, like, I'm not, like, I'm from Wisconsin. Like, I'm not a city girl. I hate walking. Like, I really hate walking. So that's actually number one. I hate walking. So it just. I don't know if that would have been the lifestyle for me at the time.

[Sue Bird]

Okay, so Dallas kind of.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It really made sense, lifestyle wise. Yeah, it did.

[Sue Bird]

Okay, so when you got there, did you like, like, forget on the court? We'll get to that in a second. But, like, off the court, did you actively.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I loved it. Like, there was food spots on every corner. Like, Milwaukee didn't have that. It was just like open space. Like, it was cool. The people were cool. Like, it was a simple, quiet life. Like, I liked It A lot.

[Sue Bird]

Okay, so what was. What was the adjustment like for you on the court then?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It was tough because I was playing point guard. And I actually will always remember Seattle. Like you guys tracked me at like half court my rookie year. I think I probably had like five, six turnovers. It was here. I don't know what arena it was in 2019. Yeah, it might have been at Washington.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, it was at uw.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I will always remember that. That was like my welcome to the league game because I was getting trapped everywhere and I was turning it over.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, that was that Gary Kloppenberg special Coach Klopp.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

That was the trap.

[Sue Bird]

Okay, so would you say the. So would you say like the physicality of the league or maybe in that scenario, like, maybe like the iq.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It was thinking more IQ for me because I felt up to speed. Like I felt strong enough, but it was just like players were smart. Like, I just felt like players were always one step ahead. Like I needed to watch more film and just learn. Like. So that first month was rough. First two months, but then that last month I figured it out and you know, I started killing. But it definitely was the IQ part for sure.

[Sue Bird]

So what do you think you figured out?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Just the game. Like, I was getting a lot of fouls too. And just like. I don't know, I just felt like, like I said, players just were one step ahead. They kind of knew what was coming. But I just. I don't know, I just. It just started clicking for me.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, well, I mean, it definitely clicked. You averaged 19 your rookie year, which is not the norm.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Right, Right.

[Sue Bird]

You're obviously a scorer coming from college, but even still, there's usually like an adjustment. So I'm curious, when it did click for you, did you find that like what you were, what you were good at and what got you success in college was similar, or did you have to change anything about how you scored?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Kind of. Not really. Like, I feel like I had the opportunity to score more honestly, like. Cause I mean, there's three seconds in the lane. So it's like I kind of felt like I had a lot more space and just like was able to kind of do more one on one stuff. Cause you know, in college, like you're running the plays, you're running the system, but a lot of this turns into pick and roll sometimes and you have more like ISO times type thing without your coach like being like, swing it, swing it, swing it. So yeah, I think like the overall.

[Sue Bird]

Longer shot clock in college too.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

So it's a lot of swinging. It was kind of my type of game. Like, for. There's a lot of stretches in WMA where it turns into pickup because you might not run a play. Like, you might just got to get to the basket, figure something out. So I definitely like that.

[Sue Bird]

Okay. And do you think that approach has stayed similar as through, like, the course of your career? And obviously, you add to your game and you get better at stuff, but.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I think I learned more to be able to, like, pick and choose now. Like, I know I have to pick and choose. Like, I mean, sometimes I still make my mistakes, but it's like. I know it's like, all right, this time you might need to slow this down, or this time you might need to push it. I think I'm kind of learning that more.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. I mean, the one thing the WBA does is it, you know, it's gonna. The league itself, the defenses, what they're gonna do is they're gonna take away whatever you like to do.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

And then it's about figuring out, like, the second, third, fourth thing you can go to, and it feels like you're starting to do that. I think another aspect of your game that I'm curious about is how do you balance, like, the ability to score at a very high clip? I mean, you had 37 the other night with getting your teammates involved. Like, how do you approach that? Because very quickly, like, for me, I'm really intrigued by this because for me, I was the opposite. It was like, I'm getting everybody involved and then I gotta balance my scoring. Yeah. So it's kind of. I'm curious, like, what that mindset is when the scoring is first.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, it's definitely sometimes tough. I mean, like, I think it'll always be tough, like, when you're a scorer, just. Cause, like, you know, you have to get your team involved. And there's a lot of times where it's like, there's shots you might want to take, even if somebody else is coming, but you're like, you know, you gotta swing it. But it does help having, like, very capable scorers around where it's like, you know, go get it. Go get after. And I think, like, as years go by, like, I'm definitely learning that more and seeing my team more. Like, I feel like I've always seen the floor more, but I think it's more so, like, we can't really win without each other. So it's like, you get open, I get open. At the end of the day, you assisting opens you up. More, because now they gonna be scared of the next pass, and now, you know, you know how it goes. So it's like, I think, you know, year by year, I'm getting better at that, you know, kind of seeing the floor more better.

[Sue Bird]

Okay. Do you watch film for that?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I've definitely, like, as years gone by, watched a lot more film. And just, especially, like, when you play a team, like, how they guarded you or like, all right, did I miss this person? Or, you know, they gonna trap this and hedge this? Like, who do I have? Like, that type of stuff.

[Sue Bird]

Okay, so I don't know if you saw this during the NBA playoffs, but there was, like, this crazy stat for Tyrese Halliburton where I'm not gonna get the stat right, but it was something crazy on. If he makes his first shot, like, the team wins. He averages plus seven points, like, shoots this.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

That's.

[Sue Bird]

All right. So that's my question.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I do believe that.

[Sue Bird]

What, like, when do you know right away if, like, you're about to have, like, one of those games? Like, you can just feel it right away?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It's most times, yes. Like, and sometimes it's like, what does it feel like? I know most times. Yeah. Like, if it's like. And a lot of that, for me, honestly, comes from, like, getting in passing legs, because it's like, if I feel like I'm, you know, getting steals, getting stops, like, my juice is flowing kind of. So it's like, that's really on me. Like, how aggressive are you going to start on defense? Or, like, if my man is scoring a lot, like, sometimes a lot of stuff, that means I'm clearly a step behind and I'm not really on my game. So, like, as much as I score, like, I feel like my best games are when, like, my defense is kind of, like, I'm really locked into it. Like, all right, I'm trying to steal this. I'm trying to get this. I'm trying to do that type thing.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. A lot of people don't talk about how you led the league in steals.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, it was so quiet. I know I was never going to be on the all this defensive team, but I was definitely proud of that.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, like, how do you feel about that? Because, like, where Dallas is right now, 20, 25, you guys, you know, brand new coach, brand new team, essentially, and you're in that, like, growing pain phase, which is tough, and you've gone from, you know, being this elite scorer to a little bit of a slower start. We're going to get A little. A little more into that later. But do you want to, like, side eye people? Like, yo, I am impacting the game in other ways. Like, what? Like, what are you not?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I mean, I've, Like, I've been getting talked about since Ricky Ear, so I've kind of year by year, learned to, like, just let it go. Cause they're gonna speak whether you're doing good or doing bad. But sometimes you just wanna say, like, are y' all not actually watching? Like. But I know it's like, once you get that, you know, score mentality, it's like, oh, shit, she's scoring. 11, 12. Like, what's wrong over there? It's like, I don't think people. And like you said, we're gonna get into it, but I don't think people really understand. Like, that's like you working a 9 to 5, and you go, and you have a whole new boss, a whole new system, a new Excel format and that. You gotta pick up and learn. It's like. And it's like, it's not NBA. We literally have two, three weeks with each other, and it's like, you getting a whole new team, whole new coaches. Like, you know, I've been in this league for six years, new team. Like, I was just with a team for two years. Like, it's been kind of easy for me over, but we're also adding other players and better players. So, like, I've been trying to have to give myself grace, too, because, I mean, that's not a start that I'm used to, too. Like, I'm used to scoring, scoring, doing this. And it's just like, I do have to understand that this is a whole new everything. It's like, it's not always just gonna be like, I couldn't have thought it was gonna be like that. But me being a competitor and me just knowing how hard I worked is, like, I want it to be like that. Like, I want it to come in and do exactly what I wanted to do. But I'm kind of just like, all right, this is just what's gonna be the process. And I just gotta stick with it and, you know, just figure it out as a team. So it's definitely been tough. Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

No, I mean, I think we just get into it.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I like it.

[Sue Bird]

I'm. Stay on your track.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

So now that you're in this position, like, with this new team, with this new coach, like, is there a way. What messages are you passing along to the team? Because the WNBA season is interesting. It's you have to. You have to buy into the mentality of. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon, but it is short.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Exactly.

[Sue Bird]

So it's like both things are happening. So I'm curious, like, you've played, obviously, in this league for a while. Like, what. What is the inside. What's happening on the inside of the locker room in a season like this, when you start this way?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I feel like it's just like, you know, every couple games. Cause, like, we're seven games in, so it's like, you're like, you know, seven. It's like, I know, right? But then it's like, once you get to 11, that's 25% of the. Of the season. So it's just like. You're like, you know, we're still early. It's still early, but I feel like one more week, it's like, all right, we're, you know, 1 4th in. Like, how early is it till it's, like, All Star? Now we're halfway, and it's just, like, the time just really goes by. So even though it's, like, early, there's still, like, a certain urgency where it's like, we gotta kind of figure it out because, like, the league isn't stopping for us. They're not stopping to see ours. Dallas gonna figure out we're gonna take it easy. Like, people gonna see us on the schedule, see our record, and be like, let's go kill. Like, let's go get this win. Right now, we look like an easy win on the schedule, but we have the pieces. So it's like. It's kind of giving grace, but kind of like, all right, we might need to lock in more mentally and just figure it out, because, like, it's going to be gone before you know it, you know?

[Sue Bird]

So in these first seven games, what have you seen? Like, from a positive standpoint? Like, what have you seen? What. What areas of growth have you seen this team take some. Some steps in?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I think the best thing is that we actually like each other, because, you know, you've been in situations where it's like, basketball's going sucky, and I also can't stand the person next to me. It's like, I don't even want to be here. So it's like, I love that we all get along and that it's like, all right, we in this together type thing. We're struggling, but we're struggling together type thing. So I definitely appreciate that. But I've seen, you know, like, me and Paige I think if we're talking, like, you know, just chemistry wise, I think we had our best game with each other. Like, right before she got the concussion, like, I think we were playing off each other well, so hopefully that comes back. But I think we're all kind of learning each other. And it's like you watch like a Minnesota and New York, and it's like, even though people all kind of run the same stuff, it's like they know each other's tendencies. So, like, I'll see our slip ups where it's like, oh, I thought she was gonna roll. I thought she was gonna pop. But it's like, let's see, you see, Courtney and Fee, they know she about to pop here and roll here, and they can kind of like, figure that out. So I think, like, once we get that on court, better chemistry, where we know each other's game, we kind of know where we like the ball. Like, things will click more. Cause like, that on court, chemistry is definitely important. You know, it's like you knew where Stewie was gonna be. You knew where Jewel wanted it. You can place it there, and it's just like. It's just kind of second nature. Like, even if a play breaks down, you guys know each other, and we're still, you know, kind of figuring that out.

[Sue Bird]

And that doesn't happen in one month.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Exactly.

[Sue Bird]

And that's what I think a lot of people don't understand.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

They don't understand that. They don't get that training camp is so short. Half the time you have people that aren't even making the team. You don't literally finalize the team until the day before the game. Like, it was Thursday. We played Friday. So it's like you probably have one shoot around with your real team, like, one workout with your real team. So it's. It's not as easy as people see. So I know. Like, it's like, it kind of looks bad, but it's like we're trying. We're trying to figure it out. I know. You know, but I'm just saying, in general.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So you bring up Paige. What has it been like having her on the team so far?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, she's great. I mean, she's really, you know, everything that people say. She's a definitely humble person. Loves basketball. You know, basketball's first, you know, Karen, just a great person to be around and, you know, too, you know, you guys. UConn relationship, but she's a great person, and she's gonna be in this league for a long, long time. And she's definitely mature for her age for sure.

[Sue Bird]

So what aspects of her game, like, are you seeing so far that you think will allow for her to have like, long term success?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

The midi, like, I take.

[Sue Bird]

She's automatic.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

She got the MIDI perfected. Like, it's so clean too. It's just like, oh, you wanna run out? I got the midi. Like, I'm not about to try to Euro step and get to the basket. Like, I'm just gonna stop here and pop the midi. And like, that's so hard to guard. So I think like, her having that and obviously because she can shoot from far, but her having that MIDI is definitely huge. For sure.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Is there any advice you've been able to give her? Just like that vet advice?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, just, I mean, I kind of was talking to her a lot, like in college too. Like, just like be more aggressive because here it's like, you need to score. Like, you need to score. Like, and you're a scorer. I know, like, she has that, you know, mindset, but I think people saw like, especially in that run, like she started going crazy. Like, she was looking, like she was looking really good. So it's just like, be aggressive, like, score and nobody will ever get mad. You doing this, taking shots, because it's like, that's what we need from you, truly.

[Sue Bird]

So you've added Paige, you have a whole bunch of new players, like we already mentioned. How are you blending? Like, I would describe you as like a kind of like a free flowing, like creative player. You know, like, to me, when I watch you, you're playing off feel.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Like, I don't even know. Yeah, you might get the ball in certain spots, off plays from time to time, of course, but then after that it's just like a feel thing. And I'm curious if you feel like you're able to keep that part of you, like while being a vet. Because what that means on a team that is new is it means leadership and it means like ownership in a different way. And you're probably maybe like being kind of like a connector at times. And so are you finding you're still able to like get creative out there?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I think I'm growing through that too. Because I mean, you know, it's not like I'm 1012 year vet. Like, you know, I'm a vet, but it's like still early on too. So it's like you go from kind of like, all right, like, you know, I'm gonna do what I do. I'll be corrected by Somebody where it's like I either correct myself or nobody's. Like, I have to figure it out. Cause I have to be this example and I have to, you know, try to lead by example and try to lead by what I do. So I can't be just out there doing anything type thing. So it's like, I think I. And then too, it's like finding the time to be aggressive and not be aggressive. I think I caught myself in training camp especially having a lot of players, like just trying to like, shots I would usually take, try to do that. But like, you know, you practice how you play. So I found like, especially that first preseason game, like, you know, I'm second guessing stuff like passing. It's like, you know, you got to be aggressive type thing. So definitely just kind of getting a feel for that. I think I'm still working through that. I think I'm, you know, getting it now. But it's just. It's just been like, it's a process. Like, like I said, I just have to keep giving myself grace in the team. Grace. Because it's like we've been together, but we really haven't. So it's like we can be okay with kind of working through these kinks type thing.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. That 37 point game had to feel good though.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, it did.

[Sue Bird]

Was it just so I was like.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Damn, I don't even know if I could score 20 anymore. I don't even know if I have that in my bag.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Isn't it crazy how when you go through just a tough stretch, which everybody has em, you know? Everybody has em. When you go through a tough stretch, it can have you asking yourself those questions.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Am I washed? Am I washed? Can I even get to the basket? No. I literally, like, I had to just stop second guessing myself. Cause I'm like, it'll just really mess with your head. It's so crazy how like, yes, it's skill, but a lot of this is mental because it's like you can be great and have these blocks where it's just like, you look like you can't put the ball in the ocean.

[Sue Bird]

Like, you know what? I always tried to remember when I was playing. Well, I wasn't thinking about anything. Yeah, I wasn't sure. I wasn't wondering to myself, like, wow, how am I able to do that? All these great things. No, you just playing.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

No, you just.

[Sue Bird]

And you just, you like move on to the next and the next and the next. I always try to like, remember that when I was in a little Bit of a struggle because it can be hard. It can for sure. Okay. So when you look around the league, you're obviously, you're not washed, you're still scoring, you're still putting the ball in the hole. Who, what are like some other like, what's like your top five favorite, like.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Scores in the WNBA scores, like when they get on a heater. I think Jewel's game looks nice when she gets on the heater. She be hitting tough shots. Yeah, she be hitting tough shots. Chelsea Gray. When she gets hot, it's tough.

[Sue Bird]

It's loud.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It's loud. Yeah, when she gets hot, it's loud.

[Sue Bird]

She hit one over Malanga in Seattle the other day.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Oh, did she?

[Sue Bird]

Like late in the game? Just one of her classics where she was like back and forth and all of a sudden like, you know, did her turnaround and it was a rainbow over among that.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I think I kind of appreciated it and unrivaled. Cause like, obviously when you're in wba, you watch it but you're not there. So it's like here you can catch all the games. I'm like, she's really killing. Like it don't matter what you throw at her. Like she's killing. So I say those two, Marina and Jackie, I like when they get hot. Especially Jackie. Cause she's so quiet. Like when she gets hot, she can get going for real. And she kind of has a bag too. Like. Yeah, she'll hit some in and out between. Like when she's feeling good. In Marina too. Like she hitting everything low key.

[Sue Bird]

Jackie's up and under is so good.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

No, she has great footwork.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, her up and under is deadly.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

She definitely gets you.

[Sue Bird]

And it's like a quiet move and she's quiet like you said. But yeah, she'll get you every time.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Now I have to give it to Phi. I think when she hitting that fade, like, it's definitely tough.

[Sue Bird]

Were you cheering for her in the one on one tournament? Nah, nah.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

That one on one tournament, I. I have my thoughts.

[Sue Bird]

Like, I want to hear them.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It was cool. But it's like for me, because like I played pickup, I played outside all the time. So like it's just like, okay, I'd rather them give like a seven second countdown. You get however many dribbles who can get to the cup. It's like I got Aaliyah Edwards coming at my chest. There's nothing to do. And if she misses, she can grab it over my head and put it back. Like, I want seven seconds. You get One shot. If you miss it, it's the other person's ball who can get a bucket type thing. To me, that's what. One on one. Like, that was more cardio than anything. You miss. You gotta come around. You tired when you get to four points? Like, I can't even.

[Sue Bird]

You guys all did look gas.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

For real. It was the most tiring thing. Like, I thought they were, like, gassing. They were coming out, huffing and puffing. I'm like, golly. I played the first game. I'm like, oh, we gotta stop after every shot. No offensive rebounds.

[Sue Bird]

Okay. So that. Yeah, so the no offensive rebounds kind of. Kind of cures the fatigue of it all.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Right.

[Sue Bird]

It's not like a cardio workout. Do you think that also takes away.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Oh, yeah.

[Sue Bird]

The, like, size differential. The advantage. The size advantage.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Because some of us were guarding that first bucket, but if they missed, they grabbing it and putting it up. Like, you can't do nothing about that one.

[Sue Bird]

Right. Okay. All right. But did you have fun?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It was fun. It definitely was fun.

[Sue Bird]

You were one of the final guards.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah. You made some fun. Yes. It was tough, but it was fun.

[Sue Bird]

It was fun. It looked like it was fun.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It was fun.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, but you guys look tired of shit. I was cracking up on day one. I was like, oh, my God, this looks hard. Okay, so changing gears, like, slightly. You've been an All Star, like, multiple times. Two of those times you played the USA team.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

All right.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Your buddy's over there.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So what I need to know, obviously, I was on the other end of one of those. Tell me what's going on. Not just for you, like, initially, like, what's going on in the locker room. You're about to play the USA team. Like, what do you guys. What's the vibes?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It's really chill. Like, I feel like everybody tries not. Tries not to, like, overdo it. Like, oh, like, let's. I think the coaches are like, let's, you know, let's beat them. Let's get after them. But, like I'm saying, the one at.

[Sue Bird]

Lisa Leslie and Dina Thompson for going so hard.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Exactly. Player wise. Like, I mean, the coaches asked, like, are y' all about to BS or y' all about to play for real? And, like, we were like, all right, we gonna play for real. So I think both times that was kind of the vibe. But, like, we're not more so, like, oh, like, let's beat them. Cause they didn't put us on the team. It's just like, let's beat Them just. Cause like, that's the team they pick. Like, let's beat them. Like, it is what it is. Like just on some competition stuff, like. And I feel like that one's. Well, I mean, at least the two times I play, that's always the most competitive. Cause it's like you guys are actually like, running plays and trying. So it's like, if they running plays, like, we gotta be locked in. Cause they trying to. And you don't want them to make you look stupid. Like, oh, like, these are the best players in the world. Which they are the best players in the world. But it's like, we're good too. So it's like, we're not just going to go out and lay down. Go, go outside. We got to compete.

[Sue Bird]

I feel like in last year's game, different from the first year. The first time when I played, I feel like you guys just like, had it the whole game. Yeah, you were kind of like in control of the whole game in a sense. I don't remember what the score was. I don't remember, like, the swings of the game. I just remember feeling like, damn. Like we couldn't like, catch up in a sense. But this time around was interesting because it felt more like even. Maybe even they had a little bit of the momentum and then something clicked for you.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

So tell me what happened there.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

No, literally, like, you're in halftime and it's still all star. So at the end of the day, like, you're locked in, but it's like, it's all star.

[Sue Bird]

Like, I was out last night.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

So she's right. So she's giving her speech and then she's like, she's. I'm watching her, she's looking around, and then she stops and points at me. She was like, you need to be more aggressive. This in front of everybody. I'm like, this also what you calling me out for? Like, I'm sitting here. Like, everybody else, like, literally called me out in front of everybody. Like, you need to be more aggressive.

[Sue Bird]

And I was like, she saw what happened in 2021.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

I was like, okay. Like, I guess, like, I guess you're right. And then, like, I just seen a couple go in and then it was just over from there.

[Sue Bird]

Was it Cheryl Miller?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, it was Cheryl. She was hilarious.

[Sue Bird]

She was funny.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

She was so funny.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, well, you're a All Star Game MVP two times over because of that. So. Yeah, I just needed to know. All right. Before I let you go. I'm always curious about this with players, like, what do you think about, when you think about success, like, you look back on your career and like, this was a success, or you even look back on a season like, this was like, what does that look like for you?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, that's tough. I mean, it's easy to say championships, but which always, like, is the ultimate goal. But I don't know, like, I've, like the last couple years I've been really big on, like, my spiritual journey, like, just getting close to God. And I'm really figuring out, like, I'm just such a competitor and I just care so much about, like, being great and, you know, doing, you know, doing what I think I should get. I should get 20, I should do this. And it's just like, at the end of the day, it's really not about that. It's like, you know, what did you do? How did you help your team? What impact did you leave in that year? Like, were you an asshole to everybody? Like, were you nice to people? Like, really, like, getting older, like, those things kind of become more important. And I think, like, the basketball stuff comes with that, if all of that is good. So it's like now for me, it's just like, you know, was I a great player this year? Was I. Did I give my all? Like, did I half ass anything? Did I, you know, make an impact in the locker room, like, around people? So I think now that is. But the championship, like, if that.

[Sue Bird]

It's like, it's like 1B.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It's like 1B.

[Sue Bird]

1A, 1B. So when you think back to the last, let's call it like three, four years in Dallas, you guys finally break through, get to the playoffs, you do it again. And then last year really felt like, oh, this roster, we're going to make some noise. And then you get hit with the injury bug. So you just talked about impact and all those things. And I'm curious, like, is the mindset. How difficult is the mindset adjustment from going from playoff team? Playoff team, like, man, we can make a run. And then now you're in a little bit of like, starting over phase.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

So, like, the impact that you're trying to have, like, how do you view that?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

It's just tough. It's just like, like you said last year, like, on paper, it's like, we had Natasha, we had Satu, and then Satu tears her shoulder. And then Natasha gets hurt, breaks her toe. And then Maddie breaks her finger. And she was. She really could have got sixth, man, last year before she broke her finger, she was doing Great. So it's like, you get through that. I'm like, all right, cool. Like, it's definitely like the whole year, I'm just literally praying to get, like, a high pick. Like, I'm like, at this point, there's just no championship. Like, you can say it. You can say it until it gets to a point where it's like, this is not happening.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, you gotta be realistic.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

You gotta be realistic.

[Sue Bird]

It's just what it is.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Yeah, I'm just like, I hope this is happening for a reason. Like, and then we get the number one pick, and then now we kind of going through. You know what it is. And it's just like, really, everything happens for a reason. Everything's gonna happen in the timing that it's supposed to happen. Like, that's really all I can say. And, like, really all that you can think. Cause it's like, you can't. At the end of the day, you can control being great. You control basketball. But anything, you can't because it's like, everybody's good. So whatever's supposed to happen is supposed to happen. All you can do is just do your best. Really?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. All right. Well, speaking about or speaking of controllables, what areas of growth for you personally are you, like, focused on right now? Like, where do you see your evolution as a player in those areas? Like, where do you want to take some things?

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Probably just my emotions. I'm a very emotional player. Like, getting ejected. I've been better at that. But just, like, getting text.

[Sue Bird]

That one was a fluke.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

That one was a fluke. Yeah. But, like, I'm very tech prone. But it's never players. It's like that.

[Sue Bird]

Tech prone.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Tech prone, right. It sounds good. Like, it just happens. So definitely just trying to control my emotions. Like you said, like, I'm a vet, so I can't just be trying to crash out every single time. Cause people are watching. And we have younger players, too. We have three rookies. So it's just like, I have to try to be able to keep myself in check so I can keep other people in check. I can't if I'm, you know, going crazy in my head. So that's kind of a battle. I, you know, fight all the time. Cause at the end of the day, I'm very emotional. Like, I, you know, I want to win. Like, regardless, like, what's going on, I want to win. And sometimes, like, that passion can turn into other stuff, especially when things aren't going good. So definitely, like, trying to keep my emotion in Check. So I can, you know, be a good leader, a good teammate.

[Sue Bird]

All right, I love to hear that. Arike, thank you so much.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Thank you. I appreciate this.

[Sue Bird]

It was fun, man.

[Arike Ogunbowale]

Thank you.

[Sue Bird]

Appreciate it. Just finished my conversation with Arike. It was so enjoyable. What cracked me up is a lot of times you ask a player, you know, like, what do you want to work on? Or what's the evolution in your game going to be? And they might say shooting or ball handling, which she did talk about when her handle got tight, which was back in college, which is amazing. But for Arike, it was like all these mental aspects of the game, right? Like how to be a leader and controlling emotion. So I found that really fascinating because she's in a spot right now where she is a vet. I don't think she loved being called that, which I totally understand. You're still young, Arika. You're still young. But she is one of the older players from an experience standpoint. So she's now a vet on this team. A lot of youth, a new system, and her mindset really stuck out because they had a tough start to their season and they're trying to build and they're trying to get on track and you can tell her focus in handling that is there. And even though there are some struggles, there's a sense of calm in her and of, you know, a level headedness exists. And you also heard the confidence come out too, right? Like you heard how she knows when she's about to go on a heater. But I think what stands out to me is all of those qualities, the level headedness, the calm, the confidence, those same things she's showcasing now in a little bit of a hard moment. That's exactly what allowed her to hit game winners in college, what allows her to have 37 point nights. So it's really interesting how those two things are always existing for her in the moments when it's hard and the moments where she's killing it. So I really enjoyed that. All right. This episode is a co production of Together and Vox Media. Our producers are Tommy Alter, Jason Gallagher, Richie Bozek, Harry Krinsky, Jess Clarendon and Jasmine Ellis. And a special shout out to Ramon Dampour for production support.