The Tina Charles Interview

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Tina Charles Interview" on Bird's Eye View with Sue Bird

Release Date: July 11, 2025

Host: Sue Bird

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Introduction

In this engaging two-part interview, WNBA superstar Tina Charles joins Hall of Famer Sue Bird on "Bird's Eye View." The conversation delves deep into Tina's illustrious career, her experiences across various WNBA teams, Olympic endeavors, leadership philosophies, personal challenges, and her impactful off-court initiatives.

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1. Career Journey and Achievements

Tina Charles, a future WNBA Hall of Famer, shares insights into her remarkable career, highlighting her numerous accolades:

• Achievements: "I'm an MVP, a two-time scoring champ, eight-time All-Star, and a three-time Olympic gold medalist." (00:56)
• WNBA All-Defensive and All-WNBA Teams: "Selected to the WNBA All-Defensive team four times and made the All WNBA team nine times." (00:56)

Tina discusses her transitions between teams, including the Connecticut Sun, New York Liberty, Phoenix Mercury, and Seattle Storm, emphasizing the impact of strategic trades and free-agent signings on team dynamics and performance.

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2. Team Culture and Leadership

The interview underscores the significance of team chemistry and leadership in achieving success:

• Building Culture: "The real reason I bring it up is...are we going to see more European players? More than that, are we going to see more European players drafted?" (07:00)

Sue Bird highlights the importance of fostering a collaborative environment: "Teams all across your business will be psyched to collaborate and create amazing presentations..." (00:01)

Tina emphasizes leading by example: "With this group, I'm more leading by Example." (57:19) She reflects on adapting her leadership style to fit the new team dynamics in Seattle.

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3. Olympic Experiences

Tina recounts her Olympic journeys, detailing the challenges and growth she experienced:

• Olympic Roles: "Being able to be a pro coming off of that, that's what was special for me, was to be able to see that through." (123:20)

• Tokyo Olympics Challenges: "The Olympics is such a hard experience... It's just a game." (Noted throughout the conversation)

She discusses the physical demands and strategic adjustments required when shifting roles from starter to bench player, especially during high-pressure moments.

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4. Personal Struggles and Growth

Tina opens up about pivotal moments that tested her resilience:

• 2019 Season and Team Changes: "That was a sad moment... The dream started for me to want to aspire to be in the WNBA." (87:14) She shares the emotional turmoil of being traded and the subsequent decision to join the New York Liberty.

• 2014 Drug Test Incident: Tina narrates a harrowing experience involving accidental ingestion of an edible before a championship game: "My heart just, like, falls... And I was like, yeah, Tina, that's a good shot." (124:34) This incident underscores the unpredictable challenges athletes may face off the court.

• 2023 Hiatus and Rediscovery: Reflecting on a year away from the game, Tina discusses her journey to rediscover her identity beyond basketball: "It was very hard... I was very isolated." (75:09) Through faith and personal development, she rekindled her passion for the sport.

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5. Leadership and Team Dynamics

Tina and Sue explore the balance between leading by example and providing vocal guidance:

• Balancing Leadership Styles: "I have to learn, like, okay, maybe my approach is the arm around the shoulder and saying, like, hey..." (57:19)

• Adapting to Team Needs: Tina shares experiences from her time with various teams, emphasizing the importance of understanding and meeting teammates where they are.

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6. Philanthropy and Off-Court Initiatives

Beyond the court, Tina is deeply committed to impactful causes:

• Hopi's Heart Foundation: "We raise awareness of sudden cardiac arrest and replacement of AEDs... We've saved one life." (82:05) Tina highlights the foundation's success in placing defibrillators in critical locations, honoring her late aunt's memory.

• Filmmaking Career: Tina discusses her burgeoning career in filmmaking, aiming to tell stories of unsung heroes through documentaries: "I'm excited about it... tell stories of unsung heroes." (84:13)

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7. Advice to Young Players

Tina imparts valuable lessons to aspiring athletes:

• Embracing Roles and Teamwork: "You're not just sacrificing the me for the we... Just trying to help these guys be better." (79:12)

• Handling Adversity: "True character is shown until you face adversity... How you choose to respond." (93:35)

• Developing a Competitive Edge: "If you chase perfection, you will catch greatness." (22:08)

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8. Reflections and Future Outlook

As the conversation draws to a close, Tina reflects on her legacy and contemplates her future:

• Legacy and Impact: "Counting my wins in a different column... teach them how to be pro." (79:12)

• Future Plans: While Tina hints at possible retirement around 2026, she remains passionate about contributing to the sport and her philanthropic efforts: "Hope He's Heart foundation... getting to be behind the lens." (82:38)

• Gratitude and Faith: Tina emphasizes her gratitude for the opportunities and the role her faith has played in navigating her career's highs and lows: "If you were to hang my head... I'm just gonna trust it." (75:06)

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Notable Quotes

• Tina Charles on Leadership: "Leadership is not about what you do, but how you do it." (Referenced throughout)

• Sue Bird on Team Impact: "When you have European players, they're tipping the scale for a lot of teams." (07:00)

• Tina Charles on Adversity: "True character is shown until you face adversity." (93:35)

• Tina on Hopi's Heart: "We're very close to reaching the 500 milestone... it's a preventable injury." (82:38)

• Tina on Returning to Play: "Being around those players and reminiscing... it's really special." (144:30)

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Conclusion

This comprehensive interview between Sue Bird and Tina Charles offers an intimate glimpse into the life of one of the WNBA's most decorated players. From career triumphs and leadership insights to personal struggles and philanthropic endeavors, Tina's story is one of resilience, passion, and unwavering commitment both on and off the court. Listeners gain valuable lessons on teamwork, handling adversity, and the importance of giving back, making this episode a must-listen for basketball enthusiasts and aspiring athletes alike.

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For more episodes, visit Bird's Eye View on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[Tina Charles]

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[Sue Bird]

Ready lit a little bit.

[Tina Charles]

A little, little bit? Yeah, a little bit. Yo, how'd your meeting go? And you're like yeah, good. Like you know I'm on the team. Hahaha. We're like yeah da da da. And then you were like but Coach Ayama told me you two said I don't pass enough. And we were like, I actually think the words were coach or Ayama said you two call me a black hole. Today's guest is Tina Charles. Tina is a future WNBA hall of Famer. She's an mvp, a two time scoring champ, eight time all star and a three time Olympic gold medalist. She was selected to the WNBA All Defensive team four times and made the All WNBA team nine times. She's also someone I've known for a very long time. And before we get into this interview, I do want to pull back the curtain a little bit because something interesting happened a few weeks ago. We recorded what was supposed to just be a regular old full episode and you're going to hear a chunk of that shortly. And it was a great conversation. We went to dinner that night and we're just hanging out, we're talking and it was in that conversation that she started to to express like wanting to talk about more. I kind of asked her like how do you think the interview went? And she was like great. But I would have said more here or I would have dug deeper there or I would have told that story here. And it really got me thinking. I think at times I've tried to maybe just avoid having those types of conversations. Not sure if the person on the other side of the interview is down to go deeper. But then I realized, you know, through Tina, that I can be a safe place if players do want to do that. So this interview is a little different in that it's going to be a two parter. We recorded the first part two weeks ago. We sat down again for part two. Try to get into those layers a little bit and hopefully you guys enjoy it. But before we get to that, you know what time it is. Time for Sue's view. All right, first up, for Sue's view, the European Championships are over. So we've got a lot of the European players that left. They're now back. Of course, the one that really jumps out in terms of her impact is leonie fibish. New York is 11 and one when Phoebus is there and two and five without her, she has the second highest net rating on the team outside of John Cole Jones, which obviously plays a huge role because they've also been without jj. But I digress because I'm not really bringing this up just to highlight Phoebus. When you look around the league and you see the signing of European players as free agents, it's having an impact and they might not be making the All Star team, so it's not that type of impact, but they are surely like tipping the scale for a lot of teams. And I just think it's been really interesting to both. You know, I'll give a shout out to GMs here to both watch GMs kind of navigate this space, go out and find the talent and then sign it, right? So you're talking New York Liberty signing Leonie Phoebus. You're talking Phoenix Mercury signing Moni Koa Makani, the Golden State Valkyries with Janelle Salon. So this is happening a lot in free agency. And the real reason I bring it up is first, I know firsthand about that impact. In 2010, we signed Jana Vesela, a player from Czech Republic. She had, first of all, she was so versatile. Actually reminds me a lot of Phoebus, or Phoebus reminds me of her. Could shoot threes, could post up, played tough defense. She was 6, 4. It's almost carbon copy. And that impact was felt. I mean, we won a championship because of her. She was a big key to that roster. But she only stayed one year. She only stayed one year. I'm sure most of that is because of the money. And now that we're going to have a new cba, which will likely increase the salary, I'm just starting to think like, are we going to see more European players? More than that, are we going to see more European players drafted? Because what you saw this year with golden state, with their fifth pick, they went out and drafted 19 year old. You say Yochite from Lithuania as like an investment, right? Because what these European players are surely proving is that they play overseas in their home countries or somewhere in euroleague. They build their game, they get mature in their game, they come over, they have impact. Another great example of that we're actually seeing with the Connecticut sun right now. Layla Lacan got drafted last year, brought over this year she's just getting started, but in their win against Seattle, she had like 8 points on 50% shooting, so. So I'm starting to wonder. It's not something we've never seen. We've seen European players get drafted for sure. But I'm wondering if this is going to become just something that teams do more often, right? Like draft the youngster that has potential that you can get the rights to early on as opposed to having to find them in free agency. So just something I'm thinking about next up, the All Star teams are set. They've been announced and this year there are three, three rookies. Paige Beckers, Sonia Citron and Kiki Iriafin. And I'm bringing this up just to have a little bit of like history talk. The WNBA Instagram page actually had the same idea I did, which was like, how many times have there been multiple rookies? So they actually did the research for me. I'm really thankful for that. But I wanted to go like a little bit deeper on not just rookies, but actually rookies that made the All Star team as reserves. Because that's a little bit different, right? Like the coaches are choosing the reserves. It kind of takes out, for lack of a better, like the popularity contest of it all. Does it make it better or worse now it's just different to get selected as a reserve as opposed to a starter. So for Kiki and Sonya, they got picked as reserves. So to take it back, 1999 was the first all star game and we saw seven rookies making it. This is like a little bit different. I do think there's a tiny asterisk next to this game because the league was so new. So rookie didn't necessarily mean like someone from college. It could have just been somebody coming from the ABL or somebody coming from Europe. So it is a little bit different. But they did have seven. And actually what I noticed there was they had six reserves. So technically it's the most all time. But Shamika holds claw. I think that makes her the first rookie ever voted in as an All Star. So fun little fact. In the 2002 All Star Game, which is my rookie year, it was myself, Stacey Dales and Tamika Catchings. Stacy was a reserve that year, so that's just one. 2006 had four rookies. Simone Augustus, Sophia Young, Malcolm, Cappy Pondexter and Candace Dupree. And they were all reserves. And then 2011, which is the last time there was, I think three or more. He had four rookies go in. Courtney Vandersloot, Daniel Adams, Liz Cambage, and Maya Moore. That's three reserves Maya got voted in. So I guess 2000, technically 1999, but really 2006 takes the award for most reserves. But I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that my rookie year, 2002, the game was in D.C. i was selected as a. As a starter. I'm going to go out a limb and say that that starting team was for a rookie. Like, I don't think you can beat it. Undefeated. I started with Lisa Leslie, Cheryl Swoopes, Tina Thompson, and Tisha Panachero. I mean, come on. Unbelievable. You could imagine my eyes were like. Anyways, okay, last but not least, dejuana Bonner has officially signed in Phoenix and played in her first game out there. Real quick, you know, the saga's over. She's now on a team. She's back in Phoenix. I think it's a great story for her to go back home, you know, the franchise where she started. I also think it fits her basketball wise. Nate Tibbets, his style is, you know, kind of like positionless. Have a lot of skill players. DB can play the three, she can play the four. She's a matchup nightmare at the four. I think she gives traditional fours some headaches, especially with the. The space that Phoenix is gonna naturally create with the way they play. She can also take guards into the post, so that gives them them that look. But as we've talked about with Phoenix, what makes them good is actually their defense. And I think Dibi has a versatility there as well, so it'll be interesting to see if she helps with that as well. Yeah, so that's what I'm seeing. And that's it for Sue's view. Let's get to the interview. So, Tina, here's your chance. Officially your chance. My chance to tell the world the truth.

[Sue Bird]

Tell the world the truth.

[Tina Charles]

Why have you been following me your whole Career.

[Sue Bird]

Why have I been following you? I don't. Oh, no. That's the question for the good man of Christ, the king.

[Tina Charles]

UConn.

[Sue Bird]

Yep.

[Tina Charles]

Eventually Seattle.

[Sue Bird]

Eventually Seattle.

[Tina Charles]

USA Basketball.

[Sue Bird]

Yep.

[Tina Charles]

Kind of sort of Russia. Not really, but I'll throw it in there.

[Sue Bird]

I don't know. Just witnessing your greatness. I say that. Just witnessing your greatness.

[Tina Charles]

All right, well, you're in your 13th season now.

[Sue Bird]

14.

[Tina Charles]

Okay. This confuses me.

[Sue Bird]

It's 14.

[Tina Charles]

No, I know, but this confuses me.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I know. How?

[Tina Charles]

Like 14 years. Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Because of the year of service.

[Tina Charles]

13, whatever. And 14 years.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Tina Charles]

I had the same issue on my retirement. They're like, is it. And I didn't play two years, actually. Similar to you.

[Sue Bird]

Right.

[Tina Charles]

The bubble season, you didn't play. And then 20. 23. 3. Right. So same with me. And they're like, is it 21 seasons? 19 seasons, 21 years. I was like, just call it 20.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. And it's like the older you get, you want to retain those years of service. Actually, they matter. When I'm younger, I'm like, yeah, four or five now I'm like, nah, it's 14.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. But the question is, are you going to follow me to year 20? Ooh, you're knocking. You're not that far.

[Sue Bird]

No. Yeah. No.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

No, I don't think I'm going to get 20. 20 is tough.

[Tina Charles]

It is tough.

[Sue Bird]

These guys are running, jumping. Nah, 20 is tough.

[Tina Charles]

20 is tough.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. All right.

[Tina Charles]

But before we can get to 20 seasons, 14, 13, whatever it is, before we can get to your career, you can't talk to you and not talk about where you're from.

[Sue Bird]

Ooh.

[Tina Charles]

It's such a big part of who you are, how you play. So tell everybody when you say, yo, I'm from New York.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Tell them what you mean by that.

[Sue Bird]

From Queens, New York. I guess just like, my confidence, like my swagger. Just how competitive I am out there in anything that I do business outside of the court, something goes down. Just my reactive, just my wittiness, but just on top of it. That's just who New Yorkers are. Never giving up. Just gonna keep moving, keep my head up. That's just me all the way around.

[Tina Charles]

I sent you these pictures. You just reminded me, by the way, the. The producers are gonna kill me. Cause I didn't. I forgot to, like, tell them about this. But insert pictures here. I sent you these pictures after, you know, the big. What was it? The scrum. Connecticut sun versus Indiana Fever. I feel like it was, like, the perfect Depiction of New York at the start. Cause you were like, no, no, no.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I was like, yeah, you had your finger. Yeah. What's crazy is everybody's like, yo, you punched it in the back. And I'm like, nah. I was just like, I know.

[Tina Charles]

So that's the funny part. Picture clip number one or slide number one.

[Sue Bird]

Tina going, yo, like, yo, chill out. Watch yourself. Just watch yourself.

[Tina Charles]

This is right after JC And Caitlin got into a little bit. You see Caitlyn push her. You go, yo.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, watch yourself.

[Tina Charles]

Then Mabry comes in.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, Marina go. Marina, though. Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Knocks her down. And then you see Tina go. It wasn't me immediately, but you didn't do.

[Sue Bird]

But I'm still, like, talking my shit. Like, yeah, yeah, just chill out. Chill out.

[Tina Charles]

Yo, I was crying.

[Sue Bird]

I know. Everybody was hitting me.

[Tina Charles]

It was that all angle you needed.

[Sue Bird]

Everybody was like, yo, you took her back to Southside, Jamaica, Queens.

[Tina Charles]

Oh, my God. It's so funny.

[Sue Bird]

Just being a vet. You gotta protect the people. Just being a vet.

[Tina Charles]

That's all that was. Yeah, no, I know. That was nothing. That was nothing. So I joked about you following him to Christ the King, but why? Like, how did you end up at Christ the King? Because I know in New York growing up, you have options. These are like Catholic private schools. You get to choose.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So back then, that was like 2002, eighth grade, you take, like, the co op entrance exam. And I want to say I had, like, Malloy first or official. And then I had.

[Tina Charles]

Man, you had Malloy first?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I had Archbishop Malloy because they just went coed.

[Tina Charles]

Just went co ed.

[Sue Bird]

Rosalind was there.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

The head coach, I think his name is Marty Towie. I went to the. To the basketball camp, and they were like, hey, we'd love to get you here. You just have to put them number one. Then I put. I want to say Christ the king number two. And St. Francis Prep last. Everybody knows you put St. Francis Prep last. You're not getting in.

[Tina Charles]

No.

[Sue Bird]

So I got on the waiting list for Malloy, and then, like, my mom's friend from work said, hey, there's this school, Christ the King. We didn't even know about it. There's this school, Christ the King. We used to take Tino on a visit, went there, and you see the showcase, see all the names. Meek you, Lamar Odom. And then we went. I was like, oh, this is cool. So now I'm waiting to see if I'm gonna get in. And then. Didn't get into Malloy, just ended up going To King, But I went to the basketball camp as well. I went to Christine basketball camp.

[Tina Charles]

So did you. Were you, like, only Gazelles. AAU at that point, and then did you have to play the Rudy Bell?

[Sue Bird]

Yes. That was, like, the crazy.

[Tina Charles]

Because that had to have been.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, no, it was tough.

[Tina Charles]

It was spicy.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So growing up, played for the New York Gazelles that was coached by Cecil King Jr. We played all over the Tri State, all the street tournaments that played in every pocket of the city. And then. But yet we. The only. The furthest we would go was just, like, nationals, like 15 and under, 14 and under. So then get to Christ the King my freshman year. You have to play jv.

[Tina Charles]

I know.

[Sue Bird]

Doing my thing.

[Tina Charles]

Terrible role.

[Sue Bird]

But it was a lot of fun doing my thing. Just doing it all. Then Jill Cook approaches me, and she's like, hey, I have my AAU team, Liberty Bells, you know, Would love for you to just come for a tournament. All right, cool. It's a little tournament. Probably went to, like, St. Peter's College somewhere in New Jersey. And then it was like, hey, like, if you want to do this, like, you got to be committed and all that. And so, yeah, I had to make the decision, but it was the best decision that I made. I mean, the friendships I made on New York Gazelle still tight to this day, but just the exposure that I was able to receive. I mean, I remember.

[Tina Charles]

Who coached you? Was it Jill?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, Jill coached me. I remember going to New Orleans for a tournament, and Sylvia Fowles was just, like, dunking it with ease. I'm like, who this? The only big I know is Kevon. Like, I'm coming from the Bronx. You know what I'm saying? And then seeing Candace Parker enter the gym and everybody just stopping.

[Tina Charles]

So, yeah, yeah, you needed to get, like, more natural, competitive.

[Sue Bird]

See where I really like these guys.

[Tina Charles]

Totally.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

What was your recruitment process like for college? Like, we all know where you went. We know the stories. But, like, who else? I don't even know this. Who else were you looking at?

[Sue Bird]

Oh, I wasn't. I mean, coming out, this. When it comes to following you now, like, coming out, that's when, like, ESPN was really airing, like, women's college basketball. And, like, you, Swin, Tameka, Asia, and Dee were just always on the tv. And so seeing you all, how you guys were playing, I was like, oh, this is where I want to go. Like, I just want to go to UConn.

[Tina Charles]

Okay.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. And so I remember I got my first letter at, like, 12, and it was like, from Stony Brook. And, like, my mom framed it, you know, teach Jamaica. She's like, you get scholarship, you get letter. We have to go. We have to go.

[Tina Charles]

Shout out Stony Brook. Shout out Long Island. Listen.

[Sue Bird]

Yes. She was like. I was like, all right, I'm going to Stony Brook. We don't know anything. Like, my mom just migrated from Jamaica.

[Tina Charles]

We all.

[Sue Bird]

We don't know nothing. We just, like. So then we moved. So I was born and raised in East Elmhurst, Queens, near Astoria. We moved to Jamaica, Queens. And so we go back to the old house to check mail. And I remember she just stopped and she was like, hey, go check the mail. And then the letter from UConn came, and I was like, I got it, I got it, I got it. And then, yeah, the rest is history. I only took one visit, only went to UConn.

[Tina Charles]

Really? So you didn't visit anywhere else?

[Sue Bird]

Didn't visit anywhere else.

[Tina Charles]

Wow.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. I just knew that's where I wanted to be. Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

I mean, when you look back on those four years, what. Yeah, like, what? Actually? Like, what comes to mind when you think back on your four years?

[Sue Bird]

I think just commitment, you know, Just a commitment to stay with it, you know, My first two years at UConn wasn't, like, the easiest road. I think everyone is aware of that. But just what Coach Auriemma was able to do to bring out of me what he saw in me and what I didn't see in myself to reach during that time period.

[Tina Charles]

We'll talk about it. When you say the first two. Two years didn't go that well.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Just when you're going into UConn, like, everyone is the number one player in the country, you know, and just coming in, not really knowing what hard work is, just not really knowing what consistency is, how he wants it, like, every single time. Like, once you show him one way, yeah, I need that all the time. So that was just hard. But just. I think how I was able to get there was just CD and just our relationship and her being able to channel him and just his message. You know, at times I was listening to. I was paying more attention to how he was saying things, how things were being projected versus what the message was. And once I was able to get past that, going into my junior year, I wanna say that's when I started, like, turning the corner. But then it was also seeing Maya, you know, when Maya came in. So we played three years together, and seeing how hard she worked, her consistency, her being in the gym, that's when I Was like, all right, she's doing two A days. I have to do two A days. So if I had class at 8, I was in there at 7am and then if practice, you know, we only had gamble. So 1:30 or 4:30. I was there at 12:30. So Maya really set the example for me on, you know, you're not going to get better just in practice. Like, you got to put in the work and that was everything.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Okay. So for those that don't know your freshman year, you guys lose in the Elite Eight.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Tina Charles]

Then your sophomore year, you lose in the Final Four.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So my freshman year, we lost an elite 8 to LSU. Crazy story. I remember we lost that game. I don't know if that was my first time at sophomore year, but anyways, I remember we lost that game. And Coach Ryema calls me in his office and it's a newspaper. And this is when, like, I didn't have the shoulder surgery yet, so I was in a sully on my right shoulder and Sil just blocked my shot. And I looked so helpless. And he was like, this is how you want to look?

[Tina Charles]

So I took your nose in it.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So I cut it out and I had it in my locker. I had that photo in my locker. And it was just motivation. Like, I will never look like this.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, well, that's kind of where I'm going. And it's like, so you fast forward to your junior senior year. You guys win two championships, you go undefeated both years. So, like, what shifted from sophomore to junior year? Is it like a mindset for you guys? You've lost, now you have the experience. Is it a roster addition? Like, what do you think changed for you?

[Sue Bird]

Well, I can speak to myself for myself. We had athletes in action. That's when you were accepting Christ on the court. I went to the camp. Maya and Kylie McLaren, who was my roommate at the time, we came in together, went to the camp. It was just about making God your motivation for your sport. So once I realized, okay, I'm doing this for the Lord, this is who I want to play for, I accepted Christ there. That's when things changed. I was like, oh, I'm going hard for him. I'm playing for the Lord. That's when my mindset, I was able to ignore how things were coming at me or direction was coming at me on the court. And I was just like, okay, he just wants me to get to the block. Tejarnes, get your ass on the block. All right, I'm just gonna get to the block.

[Tina Charles]

You're not gonna fight it anymore?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. I was just like, you got it. You know, that type of thing. But that really was it. And then it was just like, Renee Montgomery at point guard that year, she was very like, I'm gonna go out with a national championship. So she really led us. I won't forget. We had, like, our. Was it first night, Midnight Madness, and she got on the mic and she said, natty or bust. And we remember, we were all like, yo, we just.

[Tina Charles]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. And then another change was Amanda Kimball, our strength coach. We got a new strength coach. And just our approach and conditioning, we leveled up. Our 6am workouts were intense. The practices were intense. Like, it was so much harder in the practices that in the games, it was just so easy.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. I'm not surprised Rene did that.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. In that. In that time, you played with Renee Montgomery, you played with Maya Moore, you played with Tiffany. Hayes was a freshman.

[Sue Bird]

Tips. So, yeah, Tiffany. Yeah. Tiffany came in and Caroline Doty came in. Those two, like, tip was very special. And it's crazy that her greatness that we're seeing now in the W, we didn't really get to see it because you had me, you had Renee, you had Maya. And just the system.

[Tina Charles]

She might have a little bit that.

[Sue Bird]

We had played for, but, yeah, but when she had her isos and her threes. But yeah, everybody was just dedicated to each other.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. No, you play with, like, a lot of good players. What do you think from college? Like, what do you still take with you? So I always quote. There's one quote coach or am I had when I was in college. Basketball is not a game of how to. It's a game of 1, 2. I feel like I really built, like, how I played the game on that quote. It resonated, it hit. I took it with me. Is there anything from college that, like, stays with you?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. He had a quote from me. If you chase perfection, you will catch greatness. And he was just saying to me, if you're always in the gym, if you're trying to chase, to be perfect with your hook shot, with your drop steps, with your 15 footers. Yeah, you know, my hook. Shit, my hook sh. My hook shot is elite. I ain't gonna hold you. CD was really drilling that with me.

[Tina Charles]

I mean, I didn't even get to that. Yeah. Cd. CD in the hook shot. For those that don't know any pose player that came through. I remember when J came through.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Because you know Jess Moore, red shirt, her first Year.

[Sue Bird]

I do know that. Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

So I'm a junior. They're freshmen. She's a red shirt, though. Just in the gym with CD hook, ems.

[Sue Bird]

And honestly, you're spending like an hour and a half just on mechanics on how to hold the ball. Like, at times I wasn't even shooting it yet. And that was the hard part to get through that grind part of how to hold the ball. Then you have the broom up in the air, then that clamp where the ball's not going to go in. Yeah, the ball thing.

[Tina Charles]

Nightmare. Anytime that came out, I was like, well, this is just unfair.

[Sue Bird]

I know.

[Tina Charles]

It doesn't come off normal anymore.

[Sue Bird]

Anytime there wasn't any basketballs in the practice.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, I never had that.

[Sue Bird]

No, we had that.

[Tina Charles]

You guys fussing around. I never had that. We had that. Any idea where you were when the draft lottery happened for. What was your draft class like? Do you have any memory of. Oh, who's going to get the number one pick?

[Sue Bird]

Oh, I just remember Sacramento had it and then they folded. No, I thought the Monarchs had the first pick and then they folded and then it went to Minnesota. They did the trade with.

[Tina Charles]

You're going to die when I tell you who had it. Now, is there a scenario where I didn't go far enough back in the archives and Sacramento is associated with this? I guess there's a scenario. You're going to die when you find out who had it first.

[Sue Bird]

Who had it first?

[Tina Charles]

We'll get to that in a second. But do you remember when you found out, like, the Connecticut sun are going to ultimately have this first?

[Sue Bird]

Yes, because they did the trade. They did the trade with Minnesota to get emergency whaling to go. Minnesota and then.

[Tina Charles]

Okay, all right, I'm going to take you back in these archives. So In November of 2009, the draft lottery happens and Minnesota does get the number one pick, which does turn into a trade. I'm just outlining this for the people they do trade. Come January, Minnesota trades the number one pick, which is you. Renee Montgomery.

[Sue Bird]

Yes, they got Renee Montgomery.

[Tina Charles]

And then Minnesota gets the number two pick. It was just a little. A little swap. And Lindsey Whelan. Yes, great trade. But it goes even further back than that. New York in May.

[Sue Bird]

Yes, it was the girl, Sydney. I remember that.

[Tina Charles]

In May of 2009. So your junior. At the end of your junior year, the Minnesota Lynx, the LA Sparks and the New York Liberty were in a three team trade. The Liberty gets Sydney Spencer from la LA got Noel Quinn from Minnesota and Minnesota got Rafaela. God, I'M gonna mess this name up. Mascriati and the Liberties 2010 first round pick, which ended up being number one. You could have gone to New York.

[Sue Bird]

I know.

[Tina Charles]

Right out of college.

[Sue Bird]

Right out of college.

[Tina Charles]

That's actually insane. As I was like doing my little research because I remember the trade. I mean, cause for me, I'm now in my 2010. I'm in my like eighth year, ninth season, whatever it is. I'm in my eighth or ninth year and I'm like very aware Minnesota's getting the number one pick. Like Lindsey Whalen. Been in the finals a hundred times with Connecticut sun getting traded to Minnesota and now they're gonna get Tina Charles. And I was like, damn, poor Tina has to stay in the state of connectic.

[Sue Bird]

I was.

[Tina Charles]

You were a fifth year senior. Sorry, I was.

[Sue Bird]

I do remember that now because I remember saying, like, Sydney Spencer. Like, I do remember, like having that happen. Yeah. I do remember having that thought process.

[Tina Charles]

I mean, there's no way they knew they were going to get the number one.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, for sure.

[Tina Charles]

You would hold nowadays that would never happen.

[Sue Bird]

No, it's just like you just hold.

[Tina Charles]

On to actually a story of the growth of the WNBA in a way.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Nobody would ever get up with their first round pick.

[Sue Bird]

You would definitely just hold on to that.

[Tina Charles]

With you coming out of college, 100 people are holding on to future picks.

[Sue Bird]

I know.

[Tina Charles]

Thinking people might come out.

[Sue Bird]

I know.

[Tina Charles]

You know, I know. Okay, so Connecticut does get it. Did you know, like essentially from the jump you were going to be the number one pick?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. I felt like my senior year I was separating myself.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Now it'll be different if Maya was in my class, you know what I'm saying? But I felt like I was separating myself as far as like my other draft mates, like, who was in my class my senior year. Yeah, for sure.

[Tina Charles]

So you get picked by Connecticut. You get there. I'm joking about being in the state again, but what was your feeling about staying in the state of Connecticut?

[Sue Bird]

I was excited just to be drafted. Like, that was just like the dream. I didn't really care.

[Tina Charles]

I mean, outfit on point, Charlie's influence coming through.

[Sue Bird]

You know what's so crazy? My mom flashed the pic. She ran to my mom, like, and her and my godmother late at night. Like, I don't know. I forgot. I think I forgot what I was supposed to wear. And they had to run to Macy's.

[Tina Charles]

That's a Macy's outfit.

[Sue Bird]

And get me something real quick. Like then it was in Jersey, so My mom drove to Secaucus.

[Tina Charles]

Secaucaus.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Pulled up and we just put it together.

[Tina Charles]

But yeah, I mean, I would have never thought Macy's.

[Sue Bird]

No, that was definitely a Macy's. No, that was a Angie. Ms. Angie fit right there.

[Tina Charles]

Ms. Angie.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Okay, so again, you get to Connecticut. What's your, like, initial thoughts? Training camp starts, the season start. Like, what's your thoughts on the league and playing in this league?

[Sue Bird]

I was excited because one, I have Renee. So that was like comfort right there. Familiar.

[Tina Charles]

Titi.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, she called me Titi. Hate it.

[Tina Charles]

For those that don't know, Renee Montgomery is like Ms. Nickname. Yes, nickname. Nickname for everybody.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Tina Charles]

You know, we used to call Renee was in Seattle in 2015.

[Sue Bird]

I do remember this.

[Tina Charles]

Jenny Busek was our head coach.

[Sue Bird]

Yep.

[Tina Charles]

You know what she used to call Jenny Bouc? Jenny Boom Boom Boom Boom.

[Sue Bird]

Jenny Boom Boom.

[Tina Charles]

I'm the only one that got it because Jenny Boom Boom was like a DJ on Hot 93 7, which is like the, you know, rap and hip hop station or up in Hartford.

[Sue Bird]

I feel like in the game I heard, what's up?

[Tina Charles]

This is Jenny Boom Boom. And it was like, we all knew Jenny Boom Boom. She walks into training camp the first day, she's like, what's up, Jenny Boom Boom? Which, you know, when Renee does a.

[Sue Bird]

Nickname, I know it's six. That's it. Then everyone. Everyone gets it.

[Tina Charles]

Everybody gets in on it.

[Sue Bird]

Like, swin. Still be like, hey, tt.

[Tina Charles]

Like, I'm just like, it's done. Yeah. Kay Bear. I mean, even I know all the nicknames.

[Sue Bird]

Kalana. Kay Bear.

[Tina Charles]

She said, Jenny Boom Boom. I almost died. I almost died. Where is Jenny Boom Boom now? I do the real Jenny Boom Boom.

[Sue Bird]

Oh.

[Tina Charles]

She was like, you know, the voice of our time. The voice of our time.

[Sue Bird]

I do remember that.

[Tina Charles]

Okay, sorry. So you have Renee Comfort, then Asia.

[Sue Bird]

Asia Jones was huge for me. The dispersal draft with Sacramento, we got. We received Carol Lawson and Demiya Walker.

[Tina Charles]

So your first year is Carol Lawson's first year?

[Sue Bird]

Carol Lawson. Demiya Walker with Connecticut.

[Tina Charles]

I mean.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Tina Charles]

Okay. Yeah. You guys, you had a lot of vets.

[Sue Bird]

We did.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. You had a lot of vets. But your rookie year goes, like, pretty well. Your rookie of the year, you're like, setting rebound records. Single season. Rebound records. How much did. Well, first of all, what was the biggest adjustment for you?

[Sue Bird]

I would say the physicality was the biggest adjustment because, you know, coach, he prepares his seniors to play like pros. So mentally, I was so confident who I was, what I was about to engage and be able to do in the league. It was just the physicality. Like, I'm going up against women who are like, 10 years in grown. Nakia Sanford, Chasity Melvin, Like, Lauryn Jackson. Like, grown woman.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. No, it's true.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Like, it was. I would say the physicality was the toughest part. Like, Planet Pearson. Like, just bullies. Like, get that one, like, forearm in your chest. Like, just bullies. So it was tough.

[Tina Charles]

Do you know that in your time in Connecticut, you were actually robbed of a triple double?

[Sue Bird]

You know what? That was the year I know that was. And it was a home game.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

And I think that was the year Tameka and I were neck to neck, like, who's gonna get mvp? Typ of thing. And that's Indiana. I want to say Indiana called and was just like, yo, it technically wasn't a triple double. Yes. Because I remember literally boarding. I remember boarding a flight and like, our PR person saying, like, hey, Indiana, just, you know, they reviewed everything. Like, saw the game.

[Tina Charles]

They took three assists away.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, yeah. You had 10.

[Tina Charles]

Well, you had nine. They put you back in the game.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, they put me back in the game because coach T was like, all right, you're right there. Go get it. Yes.

[Tina Charles]

And then they went and reviewed it.

[Sue Bird]

And then they went to review it.

[Tina Charles]

Dropped you down to seven.

[Sue Bird]

Yes. I was like, that is scoreboard was just like, hey, let's just give it away.

[Tina Charles]

I mean, listen, that's. That's the thing. People always talk about home court advantage being like, the fans cheering you on. I'm like, no, it's a scoreboard.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a sad. It's a scoreboard.

[Tina Charles]

That's home court advantage.

[Sue Bird]

But, yeah, I remember boarding a flight and them saying like, yeah, you didn't get the triple double.

[Tina Charles]

I was like, oh, yeah. When I read that, I was like, that is crazy. I didn't even know they ever reviewed. And now I know. Yeah, someone tattled.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So then I thought it was funny. Then, like, last year, I'm like, 35, getting my first one here in Seattle.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

That's. So that was cool.

[Tina Charles]

So you went MVP in year three. So it's 2012. What do you think clicked? Like, you're one and two. You're off to a great start. Don't get me wrong, but year three is different. You finish mvp. Like. Like, what do you. Like, what do you think clicked that team?

[Sue Bird]

We were just hooping, like, Kara, Renee, Asia. I think we finished number one.

[Tina Charles]

You did.

[Sue Bird]

As a team.

[Tina Charles]

You guys finished first.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Like, we were supposed to win, then we got upset by Indiana.

[Tina Charles]

I'm going to ask about that, but.

[Sue Bird]

No, that year was just great. Like, it was. I would just say, like, who we were off the court. We were in Connecticut. There wasn't really much to do. Always barbecuing, the camaraderie, always hanging out together. Rotten grinding. Yeah, that's rotten grinding. That was, like, one of my favorite teams that I've. That I've played on. And Asia was just a staple for why we made it that far.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Like, what do you think it is about? Because my opinion is teams don't have to have that camaraderie. Like, they don't have to have it to be great teams.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

But, like, when you have it as a separator. So, like, do you have, like, a thought around that?

[Sue Bird]

It does make a difference in the sense of, like. Okay. Because I know where your intention lies. I know who you are. So when you're saying things, I know it doesn't mean X, Y, and Z. We're really just trying to accomplish this.

[Tina Charles]

You take, like, a hard message.

[Sue Bird]

Yes. This one goal. And it helped that, like, Kalaina was on that team. I played with her. Renee. We played together. So regardless of what they said to.

[Tina Charles]

Me, I heard you guys had fun. You guys had fun.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, we had a lot of fun. And then Asia. Asia doesn't say much, but when she does. Big worm.

[Tina Charles]

We called her Chubbs. You know why we called her Chubbs?

[Sue Bird]

Nah.

[Tina Charles]

Did you ever see Happy Gilmore?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

And the. The coach, he has, like, a fake hand because it got bit off an alligator, so he was called Chubbs. Her hands.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, that's what I'm about to say.

[Tina Charles]

Her hands.

[Sue Bird]

Nah. Big Worm.

[Tina Charles]

Big Worm.

[Sue Bird]

Big worm. Yeah, exactly. Nobody messed with big worms. So. And then Kara. Kara was just.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Ultimate leader. So.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, she kept probably, like, kept it. Yeah, she kept bringing it real.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Like, all right, what y'? All.

[Tina Charles]

Well, you brought it up. So that year, you guys finished first. High expectations. You're going into playoffs. You meet the Indiana Fever in the Eastern Conference semis. You get game one, but you lose the next two. Like, what do you remember about that series?

[Sue Bird]

I remember Shavonte Zealous making that shot at the Buzzer in Game 2 at Indiana Y. Coach T. I think he subbed in, like, tan white and Kalana with, like, seconds to go. Alice in Hightower, she misses the free throw. It gets tipped back. They leak out. And then I guess the backcourt wasn't Communicating on who had who. Z pulls up to her, like, elbow shot Cash.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

And then game three, we're like, all right, we're cool. Like, we have home court. Game three. I wanna say, like, Katie Douglas goes down and then the other step up, like Aaron Phillips and Zee. And there's one more playing I'm missing. But then it was like, ah, now we can't figure out where the ball's gonna go. You know, when Katie Douglas was in.

[Tina Charles]

Like, playing a new team.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. You just know where the ball'. And then that actually is what broke us. Was actually Katie getting hurt.

[Tina Charles]

Do you think. Think back on all your championship wins. Do you think you could diagram a play like that in your wins?

[Sue Bird]

Oh, no, no.

[Tina Charles]

All right. I'm just gonna leave it there because it's the same thing. I could tell you, like, what happened when you lose step by step on a game losing shot. Game winning. I don't know.

[Sue Bird]

He's winning even like 2015, the year. Getting upset again. When I was in New York and with Indy, I can go the place that messed us up, you know, there. But no, when it. Not at all.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Well, I know, sadly, really for all of you, but especially for you, you had a very good relationship. Still do. With Coach Tebow. Mike Tebow, he gets let go and Donovan comes in. You guys don't make the playoffs. Yeah, it's a tough year. Do you want to talk about that year?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, we can. Yeah, let's talk about it all.

[Tina Charles]

What happened.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So Coach T gets let go. And that was tough because. Super close with him and. And just how he supported me. Not just on the court, but off the court with my endeavors started, my nonprofit there and everything. And then Ann. Yes, Opie's heart. Then Ann comes in, and I think it's just different. Cause it's like the same team. And we're used to this one voice and then another voice comes in with their own direction. And yeah, it was just like the need to buy in. And what is this new? Then Asia. Asia takes off. She's not there anymore. She was like the glue for our team. In our locker room, Kara had her knee injury in and out. So that leadership was just gone. And then it's just us. So. Yeah, it was tough.

[Tina Charles]

It just. Yeah. And then ultimately, correct me if I'm wrong, ultimately, you requested a trade, asked for a trade.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, we were losing. And my mindset was like, all right, if I'm gonna lose, I'd rather lose at home. You know, I'm gonna be that's literally what I thought to myself, because New York wasn't doing that great either.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, no, but.

[Sue Bird]

But I remember because we got. Oh, I remember exactly what happened. We got eliminated. We didn't make it to the playoffs. I go back home to New York. New York is playing against Indiana. It could have been round one. So I go to msg.

[Tina Charles]

This is like cappy.

[Sue Bird]

This is cappy. Yeah. And so I remember being there and she made this shot and the crowd went crazy. And I was with my mom. We were like, courtside. I was like, this is where I'm gonna be.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

It just made a difference. Like playing at Mohegan, being at msg, then it's home and the whole thing. I was like, ye. I gotta try to figure this out.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. That was definitely.

[Tina Charles]

I don't blame you. I don't blame you. So, yeah, so ultimately, you do get traded to the Liberty. You get to go home.

[Sue Bird]

Yep.

[Tina Charles]

In year one, you guys didn't make the playoffs, but you're getting. I feel like you're, like, establishing, like, team culture. At what point was Bill already there?

[Sue Bird]

Bill was already there.

[Tina Charles]

Okay, so Bill's already there. We all know a Bill Lambert team, how they're going to play. I could probably run the plays right now. I never even played for the man. I know exactly what you guys are running. But then year two comes along.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

And by the way, when you join in, year one, like, Swing Cash is already.

[Sue Bird]

Well, Swin comes in. I think we traded for Swin. We traded for Swin.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Swin got caught up in all that. Like Chicago.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Tina Charles]

She didn't want to go. And it was like, via Atlanta.

[Sue Bird]

Exactly.

[Tina Charles]

She ends up in New York. So you guys are, like, starting to establish a little bit in year one, but then year two comes around, Tanisha joins the team.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. That's a funny story. How I was able to get Tanisha.

[Tina Charles]

Oh, you want to talk about that?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Yeah. So we were playing overseas. We were playing overseas in the Turkish League. I want to say I was playing for Fenerbahce. She was playing for Kayseri, and one of my Turkish teammates did something to her, and T went off, and I was like, I like that. Yes, I need you. And at that time, Bill had, like. He didn't. He just. I think we were looking. We were going in another direction, like New York. Livery had let go of their head coach, Bill Laimbeer, where we didn't have a head coach set in stone at the time. So when I'm talking to her, she's like, y' all don't even have a head coach. I'm gonna come over there. Y' all ain't got no head coach. And I was just like, nah, we gonna figure it out. So then I called Dan. Dan Padevore. He's the one who I'm speaking to now. We just keep bugging her. Buggin. But it was just a funny story. Just me seeing her about to rip a girl's head off. And I was like, that's it. That's it.

[Tina Charles]

Has T ever told you the story about when she chooses New York? She signed. I'm pretty sure. I'm sure. It's like a done deal. And then she runs into Bill at Swan's wedding.

[Sue Bird]

No.

[Tina Charles]

You don't know the story?

[Sue Bird]

No.

[Tina Charles]

So like I said, she's going to New York. She is a New York Liberty player.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

She's down, like, in the hotel restaurant. Bill's having breakfast. She's having breakfast. She comes back up. She goes, got. You're never gonna fucking believe what just happened. She goes, I walk over to Bill. He's eating breakfast. And I'm like, hey, Bill. Like. Cause, like, I'm a new player. And Bill goes like, hi. She's like, tanisha. He's like, good to meet you. He didn't even know, like, what was happening. He very quickly was like. And came back around. But it's, like, one of the best stories ever. Oh. So, Bill. I actually respect it. I actually respect it.

[Sue Bird]

That's so.

[Tina Charles]

So. So, yeah. The other player that joins you in your second year with the Liberty is Piff.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. The trade. Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

What about your friendship with Piff? The history of Piff, what it means in this moment for these two New York kids to now be on the Liberty together?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, it was huge. I mean, Piff and I go back to, like, 11, 12 years old. Like, you know, like, growing up, certain people would be like, oh, they always had it. Like, Piff always had it. Like, Piff was always talented. Was always just that person you talk about street basketball. Like, I mean, we could even get into her. 113 points. Like, just sick. So I remember, like, she was in Chicago. She was doing her thing. I mean, they made it to the finals. She had a solid team with Syl and Alaina. I think Sloot was there.

[Tina Charles]

Oh, yeah. All of them.

[Sue Bird]

They were doing their thing. But, like, going back to Bill, I think Bill realized the changes that had to be made on the team in order for us to be successful in New York during his tenure. And there Was just like little whispers here and there. I remember we were at the NBA All Star, was in New York around 2015, 2016. And I remember KB came up to me, she was just like, yo, we're about to do this and that. I was like, what? I was blown away. I was hyped.

[Tina Charles]

That's a big trade.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, we was like basically straight up.

[Tina Charles]

Kappy for Piff.

[Sue Bird]

Yep. Cappy for Piff, like. Cause Kap was able to go back to Chicago, go home.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, it worked out.

[Sue Bird]

Piff was able to come home. Nah, we were hyped. It was a great feel. We just knew like we were hyped.

[Tina Charles]

So that year you finished first.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Tina Charles]

You finished first in the league again, lot of expectations.

[Sue Bird]

Libs on 10. That was a great team. That was another one of my favorite teams.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Yeah, you did. You had a good year. You had a fun group. You get past D.C. in round one and then after winning game one, you lose the next two against Indiana. Indiana Fever.

[Sue Bird]

It's just Tamika Catchings. Tamika Catchings.

[Tina Charles]

What do you remember about this series?

[Sue Bird]

Tamika Catchings. What I do remember, we played a back to back playoff game. Because the Pope came in town.

[Tina Charles]

Because the Pope came in town.

[Sue Bird]

Yes, that's what I do remember. So we played game. I think we went to three.

[Tina Charles]

I have now heard it all.

[Sue Bird]

The Pope came in town.

[Tina Charles]

We once had a game almost get moved because of like the Ice Capades or something. The Pope.

[Sue Bird]

The Pope.

[Tina Charles]

I have heard it all.

[Sue Bird]

The Pope town. I think the D.C. series went to three games. Yeah. And so we had to play. And it's like. Yeah, we had to play the next day for game one versus Indiana. So we're pissed because we're like, ah, like, you know, they got to sit. I remember them at our games.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Watching your game.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, watching our game courtside. Watching that game three game. And so like they were just like, hey, you gotta play. We didn't even have like advance notice. It was like after the game, yeah, you gotta play tomorrow. But we won, surprisingly. And then like game two, we were up by 20. Like we were up. I just, I. I didn't play defense. Tamika Catchings just.

[Tina Charles]

I mean, it's Tamika Catchings.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, she just, she just went off. Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

I wanna talk about when you guys got moved to Westchester.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, let's do it. Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Like, what do you remember? I feel like this is a big moment to find this out.

[Sue Bird]

So this is when the team goes up for sale.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

And I remember like just not even Knowing the nuances of it. You know, just being in New York, you develop, like, business relationships. And I'm like, all right, if I could just get a pool of people to just invest and get the team back, keep the team in New York. I'm calling Terry. Just saying, like, hey, can I buy the team? Like, I have no clue what's going on.

[Tina Charles]

By the way, if equity ever becomes part of a WNBA's salary package, that's the Tina Charles rule.

[Sue Bird]

Yes, it was. I was like, why can't we. If you've been with a team for certain amount of years. Yeah. We started having all those conversations, and so then we found out, like, okay, it was gonna stay there. It gets. I think. Yeah, it gets sold to Joe Sam.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

And then. But we have to play the games at Westchester.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. You're in Westchester for two seasons.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Tina Charles]

And I. I want to say it's not sold till the second season.

[Sue Bird]

Okay.

[Tina Charles]

I would have to look that up to be sure.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. I want to say that's what it was, because.

[Tina Charles]

And this is my only reason why I'm saying this. In 2018, we played you guys twice in New York. Once was at Westchester, and once we actually played at the Garden. I think we're, like, the last game that you ever played that the Liberty.

[Sue Bird]

Ever played at the Garden probably was, like, a kids day.

[Tina Charles]

It was kids day. And I was thrilled. I was like, oh, I get to stay in the city. And, like, not to go to Westchester. It was amazing.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. It was like.

[Tina Charles]

And I think that was, I think, one of the last games at the Garden. So I want to say the. I do remember that Joe Clara, PSI coming in comes the next year, 2019.

[Sue Bird]

I do remember that. But, yeah, I mean, so, yeah, you're.

[Tina Charles]

Just, like, in a gray area.

[Sue Bird]

It was. It was tough playing there, not having the fans being like, I just want.

[Tina Charles]

To set one thing straight for really everybody, like, playing at MSG was lit.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tina Charles]

Like, you could go look at the numbers. I guarantee you, if they weren't at the tippy top. And in all of their time there, they were very close when it came to, like, you know, average attendance. The vibe in there was crazy. Celebro was celebro ing. Like, it was always a vibe. I think now. And you have to give props to the size and what they're doing in Brooklyn, and we'll get to that in a second. People kind of assume, like, oh, it must have been trash because they got moved to Westchester. I mean, that's not why they Got moved. That's not why you guys got moved to Westchester. Exactly.

[Sue Bird]

No.

[Tina Charles]

So, yeah, so, like, you guys just got caught in the middle of this. This, like, fire sale that forced the move to Westchester. But it wasn't because the Liberty at the Garden wasn't a thing. No, like, that was a thing.

[Sue Bird]

But we should bring you up. And you almost coming to New York, you probably could have been the savior to, like, keep us at the Garden.

[Tina Charles]

Stewie. We got the number one pick with Stewie.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. No, I mean, duh. But it was close. It was close.

[Tina Charles]

I told that to Stewie the other day. I was like, you do know.

[Sue Bird]

I know.

[Tina Charles]

I was literally watching that draft lottery. Like, what's my future? I'm staying.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Could you.

[Tina Charles]

I can't. I can't.

[Sue Bird]

I know.

[Tina Charles]

It would have been crazy. Crazy. But actually, you know, speaking of Brooklyn and the Liberty now more so. As well as a former Liberty player.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

But also, just, like, as a New Yorker, like, I never played for the Liberty, but. But I went to games as a little kid. It was the, you know, the WNBA team in New York. It was my. My team in a sense. Do you have any sense of pride, like, when you think of how well they're doing? Are you, like, yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, yeah. Like, I had that feeling, like, when they won. I felt like I won.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

You know, like that typical New Yorker, like, nah, I won. Like, we did this. We did this.

[Tina Charles]

Now you sounded like a Knick fan.

[Sue Bird]

For real.

[Tina Charles]

Exactly.

[Sue Bird]

That's how I felt.

[Tina Charles]

Out of my concourse.

[Sue Bird]

Bing bong. I was hyped. Like, I was hyped when they won just because of, like, you know, an ode to, like, spoon. An ode to, like, Becky Hammond. Like, those guys. Me. Coming through. Piff Swen. Tanisha.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, you all left your mark.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, exactly. I don't know when New York wins. It's just better for, like, any league that a New York team is in, for sure. But it was great to just see. Watch that. They finally got it. But I was excited. I was hyped. I was like, nah, I won, too. Where my ring at?

[Tina Charles]

You know, they, like, sell them true New York. You don't know this. You don't go to games. But when the rings first came out for the Liberty, they had, like, a whole, like, case set up where you could, like, check them out, and I think you can, like, buy a version of it. Oh, so you know. Okay, save up those points.

[Sue Bird]

Fox Creative.

[Tina Charles]

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[Sue Bird]

Ew.

[Tina Charles]

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[Sue Bird]

A money goal is to have passive.

[Tina Charles]

Income in the millions. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com YourRichBFF so sadly, your time at as like a member of the team does come to an end. After 2019, then it's the bubble season. So now we're gonna like, fast forward a little bit. You sign with Phoenix. After D.C. it's 2022. And then the trade happens to Seattle. Yeah, Phoenix. I mean, just real quick, that was you guys. Just so people understand, like, it's Diana, it's you signing free agency. I forget the trade, but diamond to Shields is on the team.

[Sue Bird]

Diamond.

[Tina Charles]

Who am I missing besides bg? I'm picturing five. Or is it just you four?

[Sue Bird]

It's just us four.

[Tina Charles]

Okay, so you're like the big four.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

And so, yeah, bg. And then obviously we all know what happened to bg. So just in Phoenix, I can only imagine how mentally taxing and how difficult it was to know your teammate is in a prison in Russia.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, no, that was tough. I mean, even when we found out in February, I remember waking up from a text and just seeing, like, a news report and then getting in contact with Dee and just hearing like, hey, everyone's trying to do all that they can.

[Tina Charles]

Skyler.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Not knowing how.

[Tina Charles]

Skylar's the fifth.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Skyler. Oh, I thought you said Skyler.

[Tina Charles]

No, I didn't say Skyler.

[Sue Bird]

Yes, Skyler.

[Tina Charles]

Skyler's the fifth.

[Sue Bird]

Of course.

[Tina Charles]

Skyler. I can, like, see the picture, the.

[Sue Bird]

Photo that they posted. Yeah, yeah. Everyone's doing what they can, but not knowing how far along it actually has been. No, it was very tough. It was very hard. And I think, like, hearing about, obviously played with her on the Olympic scene and getting to know her and everything, but for those guys who have played with her longer, just the thought of it but then not having her presence there and what was missing. Nah, that was. It was immensely tough. It's just on your mind every day, reminded every day. Just being talk about it a lot. Seeing the mural, seeing, you know, her locker still there, saying, be Griner. All of it.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. So it didn't work out exactly how you had planned. And then you do. You get traded mid season, you come to the storm. I know it was, like, a challenging time.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, that year.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, I know it was really challenging for you.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Like, what about was emotionally challenging? Just even making the decision to go. Just, like, processing all the. Okay, you leave. Oh, man, how's it gonna look? And BG's not there. Are you not believing? And I think just for that team, I think. And I've said this to myself all the time, especially in 2023 when I didn't play, and just reflecting, like, you know, every day you're trying to meet. Every day you're meeting somebody where they're at every day, personally, work wise. And I think those teams that win championships, you're meeting that person where they are. And I think we just weren't consistently meeting one another where we were at giving what each other need, like the grace, the patience. And for me, I was just like, you know, I want to win a championship. I want to compete. You know, that is what overrided everything. And then for it to be the opportunity to play with you, someone I trust and knew and followed all the way around, I was like, all right, I'm just gonna take it. But the backlash Was hard. I remember when I text you and I was like, hey, let me know about the plays. And you're like, hey, just get your mental right.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

But, yeah, no, it was hard. It was hard. It was hard.

[Tina Charles]

I remember when we first went back to Phoenix.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, that was really tough for you. Yeah. Yeah. Emotionally crying before the game after halftime, and then just even, like, you know, leaving Dee, someone I looked up to for a long time, but then also having her support at the same time, just knowing what was brewing there. Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

I remember you told me it was like she kind of had that final. Sometimes in big decisions, you just need that one person who you trust to say the right. Not the right thing, but to, like, say the thing at the moment. And I remember you telling me, like, she finally was, like, almost like, gave her blessing.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, we were.

[Tina Charles]

It was just like a sweet moment of, like. I know you did.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. We played in Minnesota, then we traveled to Dallas, and we were on the bus. We just got off the flight, and I went to the back of the bus where she was sitting, and I was just telling her what I was thinking because I literally. It literally happened, like, hours before. You couldn't do it. Yeah, Like, I did it, like, the deadline, like, the time and all that. And we had the conversation, hugged it out and. Yeah. But it was. It was hard. It was hard.

[Tina Charles]

It was really hard. I think we could have won that year. I really believe that. It was just we needed, like, a little more time.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

And we ran up against, you know, a good Vegas team.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, a good Vegas team.

[Tina Charles]

Great Vegas team. And then I'm like, asia. I tell Chelsea all the time, I'm like, you shot 60? I thought 65%. Could you not just shot, like, 60?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

She shoots 60 and we win.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, she was at.

[Tina Charles]

I mean, it's one of the best playoff runs, like, individual performance wise, that we've ever seen.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

And that's what. That's.

[Sue Bird]

I mean, I still think about those free throws.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. I still think about a lot from that game. Not the free throws, to be honest. Truthfully, I thought you got put in a really bad spot.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, no, that was tough. That was tough.

[Tina Charles]

I mean, you hadn't played. I don't think I played.

[Sue Bird]

Like. Yeah, I was playing well.

[Tina Charles]

You were playing really well.

[Sue Bird]

Playing really well.

[Tina Charles]

You were like, I finally got it. Who's this?

[Sue Bird]

I think I finally. I felt like I finally got what you all needed, in a sense of who I needed to be, where I needed to be, all of it. I was learning the passes where players were gonna be once I caught it.

[Tina Charles]

You were catching the film, watching and, like, playmaking.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. I got back to, like, my shit.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

It felt like I was back in New York, honestly, in 2015, when Bill trusted me in that pick and pop and just. Yeah. So then I'm there, and then you were scoring.

[Tina Charles]

You were facilitating. It was all of it.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. And then I actually think I'm just getting a brief. I didn't think it was gonna be that long, but the group that was out there, guys, was vibing.

[Tina Charles]

No. Yeah. We had control of the game.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. And you know what? It was on the. I remember when Ebony, she came up to me, and she was just like, hey, we about to be in a free throw situation. We gonna put you. And it was on the. You drew up the play, and I was like, I should be over here.

[Tina Charles]

I remember this.

[Sue Bird]

I remember seeing the play, and Stewie should be here to catch it, and I should just be the decoy where they had Stewie. It was on the tip of my tongue to say it, and it was just that confidence that came and be like, nah, Tina, you got this.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, no, of course.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

That's why there's no fault in. You know, I don't. Like. It's not about fault. Obviously, you look back, hindsight's 20 20, but this is. This is one of those rare moments when I can actually remember what I was thinking. And I remember I was inbounding the ball.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, you were.

[Tina Charles]

And I remember, like, as. So that, okay, we had two. We had back to back possessions that we need to inbound where they were going to foul. First one, we run like a regular old play. Jule gets it. Boom, we're good.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

And then in the. In the huddle, going into the second, like, possession like this, after they go down, hit a three. Now we come back the play. No, we changed the play slightly. And I remember thinking, like, I don't think Joel's going to get open.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Because Joel was, like, the person that we wanted to shoot the free throws.

[Tina Charles]

Joel was, like, 99.9% in those moments. And I just remember thinking that. And for whatever reason, I mean, you couldn't hold my tongue that year. For whatever reason in that moment.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, I know.

[Tina Charles]

For whatever reason, in that moment. I didn't say any, and I was thinking it, and that's one of my big regrets.

[Sue Bird]

And that's how I feel when I think about that year and just not saying, like, hey, hey, hey. No, no, no, no. Put Stewie Here, let Stewie be the one to catch it. At least it's Stewie. One of them. Not someone who's like, yeah, was sitting.

[Tina Charles]

There.

[Sue Bird]

And then that was the big thing. It was like, whoever came out of that series knew they were going to win the championship. That was no disrespect to the other side, but.

[Tina Charles]

No, I think we all were thinking that.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. So, yeah, that was tough. That was tough. Tough. Let's get into some OG Talk. Yeah, I'm the double O. Yeah, you're the double.

[Sue Bird]

You might be a triple.

[Tina Charles]

What? You can't. What do you mean? You like a. I'm a triple now. What is.

[Sue Bird]

So who's the tr. All right, so you're saying triple. Okay, okay, okay.

[Tina Charles]

I'm not in the Lisa Leslie, like, Rebecca Lobo show. I didn't sign the first contract.

[Sue Bird]

Sheesh.

[Tina Charles]

I'm just a double.

[Sue Bird]

All right, you a double. You a double.

[Tina Charles]

Thank you.

[Sue Bird]

I'm an og.

[Tina Charles]

Okay, so you've played with. Because now we're getting into, like, some mindset conversation. Yeah. What you're seeing now, in the league, you've played with some of the greats, if not the absolute greats. I mean, when you think about the Dianas and the My. I mean, you've played with, like, literally all of them. What traits do they have in common? Like, what do you see from the greats that make them great?

[Sue Bird]

I would say. I would say, like, there's a consistency in their approach. Just the will to win and doing whatever it takes. I mean, being in a huddle with Diana, then that same summer, being in a huddle with you, just the not care of how you're gonna respond to this, but I need you to get this done, you know, and just players knowing the intention behind it. I think that was the special part, that the both of you just knew how to take and bring players where you needed them to go. I mean, even in that short span where I was with you, you know, I trust you in the sense of. Because knowing you off the court and all that, and our connection, but just knowing, like. All right, this may be unfamiliar and uncomfortable, but it's still going to be the best position for me. I think I could say that.

[Tina Charles]

Okay, what do you think the line is between, like, from a leadership standpoint point for some of these players, or just in general your thoughts? Like, the line between leading by example and vocally. So, like. Like, how do you actually. How do you manage that?

[Sue Bird]

I think right now, with this group, I'm more leading by Example.

[Tina Charles]

Okay.

[Sue Bird]

Because I'm still trying to find my way of my voice, of what is going to retain them and bring them in because of the type of voice that they're used to that isn't my voice. And so I have to learn, like, okay, maybe my approach is the arm around the shoulder and saying, like, hey, you know, like, going that route versus, like, I need you to get your ass here. Because that's how I'm used to being spoken to. And that's different. What I know. You know, and it's kind of hard when it's, like, in the middle of a game and you're just trying to get. Just trying to get things done. But I think now, like, being a month or so in, like, I think the players on my team are starting to know my intentions and where I'm at and just trying to build on the good habits that we are building, especially when you're on a team like this.

[Tina Charles]

Let me get into post play a little bit. So I actually saw Sil recently, big Sil, at the hall of Fame together, and she was. She got asked a question on one of the panels we were on, and she kind of was like, yeah, I just feel like. Like, I'm obviously ad libbing a little bit here. We're paraphrasing. She's like, I feel like the center. Like, the center position is kind of, like, dying. Like, it's going away.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, yeah.

[Tina Charles]

And what we're seeing, it's kind of being replaced by these, like, super versatile, like, the Stewies. Asia, like, super versatile. So how have you seen that evolution or that change and, like, the skill set of a post player?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I mean, you have to be able to hit the three. I feel you have to be able to be a threat out there coming into the league. For me, what I did was just enough, like, being able to just do a drop step, just doing a hook shot. Like, you were good. But I want to say that's what makes me want to still be around, is because I still have something to chase. You know, there's still a competitive. Yeah, there's still a competitive edge in a sense. Like, you see what Fi's doing. And Asia, Stewie, as you said, like, back to the basket post players is not really there sometime or something. Yeah, I take a lot of pride and honor when I say I'm a back to the basket post player. Like, I could be.

[Tina Charles]

That's how Sil was talking about it.

[Sue Bird]

Like, I'm gonna be dancing on your ass. Like, that's. I Take pride in that. And not just like a dribble, dribble pound, but just being able to do counter moves and all of that. It's very, very rare to see. I'm trying to think of. I mean, I'm trying to think of a post player who's just as back to the basket and face up. Cause I can't even really say that Asia is a back to the bat. I don't.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Not solely.

[Sue Bird]

She's like a freaking unicorn. Like, I can't even.

[Tina Charles]

No, she does it. But not.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, but not all the time. You know. You know you have your Aaliyah Boston.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, that's more. Yeah, more traditional.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, like more traditional. Obviously you have.

[Tina Charles]

She's actually a great playmaker in those little drop downs.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Playing with Caitlyn.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

I want to say like bg. She'll get in there, but for obvious reasons. Even Breonna Jones.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, but even them, especially in Atlanta, they're shooting.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. They're two and threes. That system that Smesco has them in, I mean, it looks good for them, but yeah, it's very rare to find back to the basket versus what it was when I came in.

[Tina Charles]

So which young bigs do you see right now in the league that you think have the chance to like make a jump? Like they have the skill set to like make a jump so they can enter into all star statics. Like, I know know you like Keke Aria Finn. Like, there's some young posts.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I'm gonna say Keke. Keke is like the next to me, like back to the basket post. I mean, even seeing what Shakira Austin has been able to do this like past week. And I know it has everything to do with Barbara Turner. Cause she's really a great, skilled coach being there with them. But yeah, Keke is someone that I would identify with where I'm just like, oh, wow. Like, yeah, she has it. And once she starts stepping out, making a three, for sure.

[Tina Charles]

So you talked about your rookie year. Like one of the things, physicality of the league. That was 2010. You know, it's 2025 now. I'm really curious your thoughts just on this whole conversation about the physicality of the league and like, I don't know, coming in in 2010, coming in now, do you think it's that much different? Has it changed?

[Sue Bird]

I think it's softer.

[Tina Charles]

It's softer now.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Lol.

[Sue Bird]

I think it's softer.

[Tina Charles]

Everybody thinks it's like a fucking fight out there every night.

[Sue Bird]

I know the only thing that is like, I mean, keeping me from is just like, age. You're not as athletic, the motor and all of that, but I think it's softer and the bigs aren't as big.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. So for you especially, it's less pounding, probably. Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Like, I was going up against Erika Desosa, Sancho Little, freaking even, Camille Little. Like, even your power forwards were powerful, right?

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Like, there was some.

[Tina Charles]

It's not just a name.

[Sue Bird]

Power. Yeah. No, like, there was like, real bigs. I'm trying to like Lawrence Sil.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Shoot.

[Sue Bird]

I don't know why I'm drawing a blank right now, but there were like.

[Tina Charles]

You'Ve been in the league too long. Gets harder.

[Sue Bird]

Trust me. There were big post players that you kiavaughn that you had to go up. Carolyn Swords that you had to go up against night in and night out.

[Tina Charles]

How much of a role do you think not going overseas for a lot of these players is going to play? Like, how do you think it's going to impact them? And then honestly, can you talk about what you learned by going overseas?

[Sue Bird]

Oh, yeah. What I learned.

[Tina Charles]

Because I feel like physicality is a part of playing over there.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, no, I'm real used to it, the physicality. But then what's hard is coming back over in the way they referee the games overseas versus in the W. But I would say the physicality. I would say gaining your confidence.

[Tina Charles]

Yep.

[Sue Bird]

Being able to. Yeah. Being able to add to your bag and work on. On different moves and then just gaining a new basketball iq. Like every country just plays a different style. I think that was like, the sweet part about playing overseas, adapting.

[Tina Charles]

You take a little bit of something from every stop.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[Tina Charles]

Wait, what were your favorites? What were your favorite stops?

[Sue Bird]

My favorite stops? I would say, you know what? My first year in Nadezhda Orenberg, in Russia, I was able to play with Becky. Becky Hammond. So playing with her was pretty sweet. Just to see her, like, take over huddles and da, da, da. And just hear her early conversations saying, like, oh, no, I want to coach. And just seeing where she's at now, I would say Fenerbachi was cool. I was able to play with Angel.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Two different times.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Yeah. So last year and then 2014, what was that? Oh, Danamo Curse was not curse Moscow. Cause I was able to play with Chrissy Toliver and Lindsey Whelan. So playing with Weezy and Christy, that was just.

[Tina Charles]

Oh, my God.

[Sue Bird]

The amount of beer, you know what story.

[Tina Charles]

Oh, that. Yeah. You know we're not gonna talk about this on here, but that fucking drug test story.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tina Charles]

That is an all timer.

[Sue Bird]

I just told it to someone the other day.

[Tina Charles]

That is an all timer. Yeah, it was 16.

[Sue Bird]

It was real. All time would have been different story.

[Tina Charles]

What was China like, actually? What was crazier, Russia or China?

[Sue Bird]

Russia was crazier.

[Tina Charles]

Russia was crazier.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, yeah. China. Yeah, China's chill. I really enjoy China. Like you. They set you up. You saying a really nice like 5 star H. As long as your contract is suited and booted, like, you're good. Like one practice a day, only for two hours day off. After two hours, you need to make a template. Yeah, exactly. Send it out. That's exactly how my contracts were. So I was good.

[Tina Charles]

I can't believe you didn't talk about the most important lesson. Although maybe we'll get this. This is like an overseas slash USA Basketball lesson. Okay, what is the one lesson we all know?

[Sue Bird]

Oh, shoot, I'm drawing a blank.

[Tina Charles]

Take him to the logo.

[Sue Bird]

Take him to the logo and cross them up. Yeah, that logo. The logo that's right there in that free throw line.

[Tina Charles]

The logo's dead deadly. That's taken out more than I can count.

[Sue Bird]

We were literally in Istanbul. We was a World Cup 2014.

[Tina Charles]

14.

[Sue Bird]

I forget who we were playing, but you took them to the logo and you crossed them over. Then I'm training. You looked at me, you were like, take them to the logo, cross them over.

[Tina Charles]

The logos overseas. Although they've changed them, it's now like. Yeah, because we complained.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Tina Charles]

So it's after like 20 years of this shit, they finally. It's like a painted logo. But they would just take the logos and there was a big ass sticker.

[Sue Bird]

Big ass circle sticker and just stick.

[Tina Charles]

Them on the court.

[Sue Bird]

They would be at half slippery.

[Tina Charles]

They would be at the like in the free throw line area and you would take you.

[Sue Bird]

It's like a circle.

[Tina Charles]

You'd be like, fine, you're fine, you're fine. You get to that logo. Whoop, that's it. You're done slipping all over the place.

[Sue Bird]

No.

[Tina Charles]

So that was like a little life hack. Get them to the logo, put them on the sk.

[Sue Bird]

I would always be that one big in transition and say, your guard isn't picking up the ball.

[Tina Charles]

Oh, the backpedal.

[Sue Bird]

And I was like, nah, I ain't got it. Yep, that was me. Yep. I did not get the ball. I have never got crossed or fell in my career. And I take pride in it, it's.

[Tina Charles]

Not, good job, good job. But USA Basketball, now that we've entered that, what do you remember about your experiences? Three time gold medalist, man, usa.

[Sue Bird]

We had some good times, you know, we had some great times.

[Tina Charles]

Great times.

[Sue Bird]

I mean, my first training camp was in Russia and in Katerinburg. And it was just Maya and I as the collegiate, like, players. And then just that training camp pool, just like, the people. First off, when I got there, I was just like, I'm not making an Olympic team. When I'm seeing all the post players, I'm like, yeah, nah, I'm not making the team. But cool. It got me out of.

[Tina Charles]

It got me out of HDFS 101. What is it called?

[Sue Bird]

It got me out of my preseason 6ams. That was something that I was hype about more than anything. But I just remember seeing all you guys. And then that was my senior year. So it was also like, okay, what can I take from anybody that I'm around as far as preparing to what I'm about to go into for my pro career?

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Do you wanna talk about London and playing against Cambage?

[Sue Bird]

Oh, man, that game.

[Tina Charles]

That game was crazy. No, people don't realize.

[Sue Bird]

Lindsey and I talk about it all the time.

[Tina Charles]

That game was crazy. Wade played great, that game.

[Sue Bird]

We always say it was like the best five minutes of our lives. Because Wade, first off, we were like.

[Tina Charles]

Set the stage a little bit.

[Sue Bird]

All right, so this is semifinals. Go to the gold medal game. I mean, Lauren Jackson's doing anything. Penny Taylor. Penny Taylor wasn't playing.

[Tina Charles]

Was hurt.

[Sue Bird]

She was hurt.

[Tina Charles]

But it was. It's basically the first Olympics where Lauren. Lauren all time great, obviously.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Goes outside and Liz. Liz are playing. It's like the first time they're playing.

[Sue Bird]

Oh.

[Tina Charles]

Together in an Olympics. Liz is like, 19, 20. I don't even know. She's a baby.

[Sue Bird]

She is.

[Tina Charles]

But she's hooping. Yeah. She had, like, 20, 21 the first half.

[Sue Bird]

She was in the first half. She was. She was.

[Tina Charles]

They were up, we were losing.

[Sue Bird]

She was hooping. We were down. I remember Carol Callan coming in. Carol. Carol. I remember she coming in like, y' all need to get this together, yo.

[Tina Charles]

Carol never talks at halftime, ever.

[Sue Bird]

Ever. She's got her little clipboard just taking her little notes. I don't know what she got going on. But then she just comes in at halftime and I'm just like, oh, this is like. I think that's when it really hit me like, we could fucking lose. Yeah. Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

This is Fucking real. It's your first Olympics.

[Sue Bird]

My first Olympics. So this is like Maya's first Olympics.

[Tina Charles]

This is what this is. Yeah, because that is what it is.

[Sue Bird]

Exactly.

[Tina Charles]

People. I always say this. I know, I know, I know. We smash people. I know. I'm not going to gaslight you and say we don't smash people 90% of the time, but that 10%, especially in the knockout rounds, especially at big tournaments.

[Sue Bird]

No, that was.

[Tina Charles]

That's not. These are like games.

[Sue Bird]

It was. It was tough. So then I remember you. You was talking.

[Tina Charles]

I was talking.

[Sue Bird]

You. You got very serious.

[Tina Charles]

I was very serious.

[Sue Bird]

I was like, all right, all right.

[Tina Charles]

I was like, we gotta guard horns.

[Sue Bird]

Yep, yep, yep. Yup. Dee was doing her thing, talking. But then it's like our second unit that came in. That's what Weezy and I always speak about. Like the best five minutes of our, like, professional career. Like, I think it was myself. Weezy had to be Simone, maybe Simone. Angel.

[Tina Charles]

Angel was like.

[Sue Bird]

Angel was.

[Tina Charles]

Just throw her in there. Let her go crazy. She didn't know any of the plays.

[Sue Bird]

Just give her the ball.

[Tina Charles]

She didn't know what she was doing.

[Sue Bird]

Angel, you gonna be here? Straight line.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, just. Just go.

[Sue Bird]

That was the play. Like, we're all looking at 10 woman press.

[Tina Charles]

She just pick up full court, make their lives miserable. Angel was one of the best USA Basketball players of all time.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tina Charles]

Just throw her in.

[Sue Bird]

Do you remember her 360 layup? I don't know if that was 2012 or 2016.

[Tina Charles]

Well, first of all, she's done that multiple times.

[Sue Bird]

She clicked her feet in the air.

[Tina Charles]

There's no place like home. She. She's. She no place like homed it. Oh, my God.

[Sue Bird]

She clicked her.

[Tina Charles]

Angel is hilarious.

[Sue Bird]

But that group, when we went in. In. And then Asia. Asia Jones.

[Tina Charles]

Asia Jones, Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

She's the. Yeah. Her defense, she just really slowed. Slowed them down.

[Tina Charles]

Actually. You just made me think of something. Okay, so this is like most of my USA Basketball experience. I didn't start in Athens, but like once 2006 World cup comes around, I'm a starter for the rest of my, like, USA Basketball career. And what an honor to be a starter. Who doesn't want that? I would never trade it. But part of being a starter is because what does usa. What makes USA Basketball great? The depth.

[Sue Bird]

The depth.

[Tina Charles]

Like, anybody could be a starter. So what would ultimately happen is the second group would always be the change making group.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Tina Charles]

And I'm bringing this up only for London and Rio. You were. Wait, you didn't start in London. No, you start.

[Sue Bird]

I didn't start in London. But then like probably after the first two or three games, halfway through. Yeah, you remember, I forgot my jersey like three times.

[Tina Charles]

And the locker room was far. We're in London. First Olympics ever.

[Sue Bird]

Hey, Tina, I'm so nervous.

[Tina Charles]

Get in there.

[Sue Bird]

I took off my jersey, took off.

[Tina Charles]

The T shirt, no jersey. So. Yeah, so coach Horiyama, and this is why I'm bringing this up, because he's trying to use it as motivation. But he'd be like, huh, thank God for the second group saving your guys ass. I'm like, what do you mean? We just tired them out. Meanwhile, it's like literally Lindsay, Will and Simone angel us at a different point. Like, who am I forgetting? Forget Rio. It's like Elena Deladon, Tamika catching Stewie coming off the bench. I was like, are you fucking serious?

[Sue Bird]

I know.

[Tina Charles]

He used to do that just to piss us off.

[Sue Bird]

I know.

[Tina Charles]

But in fairness to the whole thing, it is true. The second group, quote, unquote, when they would come in, it would always change the game. It was like the pace picked up, the tempo, picked up, the pressing, all of it. And in that particular game, in the second half, yeah, you guys got us the lead.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, we. We turned up. We turned up. I just remember being at the scores table with Weezy and she came up, she was like, we're not to lose this effing game. I didn't know what she was on. But you know what?

[Tina Charles]

Oh, I love away one liner.

[Sue Bird]

She gets that.

[Tina Charles]

She just comes in, slides in.

[Sue Bird]

That was it. Yeah, that was it. I was like, all right, whatever you need. I'm just gonna rebound and run.

[Tina Charles]

Let me know. Just gonna rebound and run.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

So something else that I've said about being a player for USA Basketball, it's like some of the most uncomfortable basketball I've ever played.

[Sue Bird]

So uncomfortable. I think only like two or three people on your team is able to be comfortable and come in and be who they naturally are. It's like you really are, are like sacrificing the me for the Wii. Like who we are on our WNBA teams. Like, my role was just to rebound, set screens, run the floor hard. Like that was my role. And I remember saying to coach Niyama, so like, when do we see no scoring my ass like this? No scoring. Yeah, but yeah, like you're just very uncomfortable adapting to a new role. Adapting to like your minutes not being there. You might get a dnp. You may not match up. Well, depending you Know who? The other country that it is that we're playing. Because some of them are just so versatile. Like, even, what, 2020 playing against Japan.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

You know, like, only certain bigs can play against.

[Tina Charles]

Like, that's one of the hardest teams I've ever played against. I'm not even joking. Which Olympic team you think is the best one you played on? Ooh.

[Sue Bird]

Probably. I don't know, 2016.

[Tina Charles]

2016, I think 2016's would you say?

[Sue Bird]

What about for you?

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, 2016.

[Sue Bird]

2016.

[Tina Charles]

I know people are going to say the 1996 team is, like, one of the best ever, and obviously they are.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Like, my God. For them.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Oh, yeah. No, my experience is 2016.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

But I'm saying I think 2016 is in the conversation of best ever.

[Sue Bird]

Has to be.

[Tina Charles]

It's like 2016 for me. I would throw 2008 in there.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Because we've got like, Sil and Candace, our baby babies. They're like rookies. And Lisa, Leslie. It's like you have all the errors in between. Cappy's on that team.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

And then 96, those would be like, the ones I would say. And I know people are gonna have.

[Sue Bird]

Opinions about that, but nah, 20. 2016. I mean, just our. Just. I think I was starting in 2016. But just the bench alone.

[Tina Charles]

BG first Olympics.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Oh, God, the bench.

[Sue Bird]

The bench. It was like, wheezy.

[Tina Charles]

It was the Minnesota Links minus Maya. Basically the Minnesota Links coming in. And then Elena Delon. Stewie.

[Sue Bird]

Stewie. That was Stewie's first Olympics.

[Tina Charles]

Yep. Tamika Catchings.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Angel.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Tina Charles]

That's his. And then to name it. Simone. Lindsay. Yeah, Simone and Lindsay.

[Sue Bird]

And S. Yeah. That. That team was. Team was crazy. It was a lot of fun, too.

[Tina Charles]

A lot of talent. And we're all give or take in our primes. Yeah. That's my vote.

[Sue Bird]

It was a lot of fun.

[Tina Charles]

Okay. I've come to the point where I'm curious. Okay. What are your thoughts on how much longer you want to play? Have you started thinking about retirement? And by the way, I don't say that in, like, a real way necessarily. I know for me, speaking of 2016, that was the first time where I was like, huh, Retirement. I didn't retire till 2022.

[Sue Bird]

Right.

[Tina Charles]

But it's just like the thought of it, it doesn't mean you. You're close to it. So I'm just curious, like, where you're at.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, No, I mean, I thought in 2023, when I didn't play, then came back Found the joy, love for the game again. But here probably think about it every day.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, it's hard losing.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Every day.

[Tina Charles]

It makes you question your whole existence.

[Sue Bird]

It's that compounded with like, you know, going in, playing at this age, playing in the 30 minute range. Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

You mentioned just how you feel physically.

[Sue Bird]

And then it's more games. Like, I feel like when I came in in 2010, it was like what, 31, 32 ish games. I think the games like we started the season in June, but now you have 44 games. And just how quickly are you feeling.

[Tina Charles]

The impact of that?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I am. I am definitely feeling the impact.

[Tina Charles]

Do you think like everybody is.

[Sue Bird]

Do you think that's like a thing, you know?

[Tina Charles]

Cause it is. We haven't like extended the season much and that is like Satu has talked about it. It's been a conversation point.

[Sue Bird]

Right. But it is a lot of games, like within a week, you know, three, four games. Just the other day. Funny joke. Just the other day we had a back to back. And our back to back was against Phoenix. And so going into it, I'm like, all right, let me see where I'm at. Me and at start jawing at each other and I'm like, oh, I'm about to go at her. It's like, even Bria. So Bria know me. Cause you know, we play together in New York. So we ran a play. She was like, oh, I just knew you was about to take it. Everybody just cleared out. Cause once I start drawing, I'm like.

[Tina Charles]

I'm coming at you. She's still doing it.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, she's still on us. Okay. So I went at her and she just like checked me and I was like, that's all the energy I had for this game. And I couldn't play. I couldn't play. I was like, yeah, me back to backs. Yeah, I didn't even.

[Tina Charles]

She was catching up.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, definitely. But no, I definitely think about it. I think obviously you're so close. Anyone around my age, there's only a few of us where the new CBA is coming in.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

And it's like, like not even about being able to enter into that new money. It's just how you were able to bring the league along to where it is. And just to be able to say like, hey, I played in the cba. That's more. So what it is for me, it's not the financial gain of what it could be. It's like, I got to play in it. I got to see it through. I got to see the changes. Cause I remember where I was, like, packing my sneakers. Like, just little nuances of where the league was and what we have now. That's what's important for me. It's like, to be able to say, like, I played in the new cba.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, no, I think that's. I totally get that. To have a little motivator like that.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

I am sad that I didn't get to charter for that reason. It has nothing to do with the charter planes. Matter of fact, I'm like, I got. Hey, I got my miles.

[Sue Bird]

No, that's something that I still.

[Tina Charles]

I'm a million miler on Delta Shout out. I got my miles.

[Sue Bird]

I missed the miles.

[Tina Charles]

Would I trade the miles for charter starter flights? Absolutely. But it's. It's just exactly what you. I couldn't say it any better. It's like you helped usher in this thing, this change a part of the conversation, and you want to, like, experience it.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

So it totally makes sense to me that that would be a motivator for you. Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

It's just the experience and then just trying to see how much further I can go. But, I mean, I still love the game, still competitive. You know, if I. I didn't think that I could compete at this level, like, I'm never gonna go out there looking like trash. I think anybody that knows me is.

[Tina Charles]

Like, nobody wants to do that.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, nobody wants to do that.

[Tina Charles]

That's what D would always say, too.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Someone tell me.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, exactly. So respectfully to these guys and what they're putting into it, like, if I wasn't able to do the same thing. And I'm still in tune with the process. I'm still in tune with the process of what my body needs. Getting up early, having to be in the gym and fine tune little things. But, yeah, I mean, Asia's probably the only player I played against where I'm like, all right, I probably should retire.

[Tina Charles]

5,000 points fastest.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, man. It was on me, too. And it's funny because it was on my mind. I was like, me being an og, like, I should foul her to make her earn it, like, in my mind. But I was just so tired. I was just like, okay, you can have it.

[Tina Charles]

You're gonna get it eventually. Just get it now.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I think she was like, seven points away. But, yeah.

[Tina Charles]

How much does, like, getting you. You're one of, I would say, the most successful, most decorated, you know, all the accolades that hasn't gotten to the finals. How much of that is A motivator right now in your career.

[Sue Bird]

It's actually not like, for me, I feel like I did everything I could. Right. Of course I have the conversations in my mind, like, man, if I wasn't playing for New York in those two years in Westchester, like my prime years, if I wasn't so dedicated to the organization and the love for the city, probably could have went somewhere else because I had the window, too. But for me, I'm just counting my wins in, like, a different column, like, just trying to help these guys be better, help them have a fruitful career like I did, teach them how to be pro. That's really what the wins are like. I know we're not seeing the wins. We're like, what, two and whatever right now. But just seeing, like, Saniya come in the gym differently, seeing Olivia Nelson do a different post move, like, those are like the wins for me. Exactly.

[Tina Charles]

Those are the ones. You're leaving a mark.

[Sue Bird]

Exactly. That's how I have to see it, and that's what allows me to keep around. Because if I were to hang my head on, I am the one player that it would have been hard. It had been hard to be around the game, but I got past that.

[Tina Charles]

I think you. I mean, you said it. You guys are like two and whatever. So I know it's a tough season, but if you can fast forward to the end, when you look back, what would make this season a success for you for the Connecticut Sun? What would that look like? What does success look like?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, success for the Connecticut sun would just be growth and turnover and buy in and just. It's not like the fact that we're losing. It's like, how, you know, like, let's do it. If it's like, differently.

[Tina Charles]

Building culture.

[Sue Bird]

Exactly. I think that would be the main thing. And then especially with those young players just learning differently, like, being able to be open to constructive criticism, you know, and how it's gonna come across. Because it's gonna come across differently, because I would always try to remind them this isn't gonna be your only stop in your career. You're not gonna be. I mean, some are very fortunate to be in the same place for a long time. And even in the climate that we are in with Connecticut sun and the unknown of where we're gonna be and what ownership is gonna look like, you have to be able to pivot. Pivot, you know, when you hear something and translate it into, you know, the game. So I think I would say that would be the biggest thing. It's Just turnover, being able to pivot, being able to just build culture and what we want this organization or the new organization to look like in the locker room and just the buy in.

[Tina Charles]

And then for you, is it, what are we thinking? Like are we going back overseas? Is it? Is it?

[Sue Bird]

Oh, I'm done going overseas.

[Tina Charles]

Okay, we're done with that.

[Sue Bird]

So done going overseas.

[Tina Charles]

Calling Tim.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, we're calling Tim. I might go back in the gym. I might see.

[Tina Charles]

We'll see about 2026.

[Sue Bird]

No, hopefully, God willing, I'm around 2026.

[Tina Charles]

Well, whether you play or not in 2026 sounds like you are. Whether you play or not. You have so much else going on off the court. I know Hopi's Heart is something really important to you. You're about to hit a milestone.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So Hopi's Heart foundation, we raise awareness of sudden cardiac arrest replacement of AEDs. So started it in April 2013. It's a memory of my late aunt Maureen Vaz. So to date we've had probably placed 486 automated external defibrillators, which is the device that you see on walls in different institutions with electric shot to bring you back. And so we're very close to reaching the 500 milestone. And for me it means everything. Cause this is a preventable injury. To be able to save lives. We've saved one knowing life.

[Tina Charles]

For those that don't know, you need to like search that up immediately.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Tina Charles, hopefully Colby Hart. Life saved.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, we saved.

[Tina Charles]

Because it's an unbelievable story.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, we saved one knowing life. A recipient from the Marbridge foundation, which housed special needs adults in preparation for the Special Olympics, the head of landscaping, Mr. Dan Carlson, was working outside and collapsed. And we donated an ad to them in 2014 and another employer retrieved it and was able to bring him back to life. And I was able to meet him September 1, 2017. And I was with New York Liberty and they did a great job just putting that together. But for me that's like at the root of who I am, just being a servant to others and being able to give back. But to do it through the nonprofit Hope He's Hard and to raise awareness of sudden cardiac arrest, which is indiscriminate towards race, age or gender. You don't have to be active for your heart to suddenly stop. And you know for every minute that goes by, 10% survival rate goes down. So it's just very imperative to have this device. So for us to reach 500 is God willing is just amazing. So that's very fortunate.

[Tina Charles]

That is super dope. Between Hopi's heart, your budding filmmaking career, you have a lot. So even if you don't plan 2026, I'm super excited to see what you get into.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, filmmaking, you know, that started with my father, did Charlie's Records, it premiered at Tribeca Film Festival, then did another one and have now one in the works right now. And just excited about it. Just being able to be behind the lens, tell stories of unsung heroes. And I just love documentaries. You know, we travel all over the world and in the meantime, between time, I'm always watching documentaries and I just went for it. So it's gonna be fun getting on the other side eventually.

[Tina Charles]

I'm excited to see Tina. Thank you so much.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, thank you. It's been great.

[Tina Charles]

Thank you. All right, that was part one with Tina Charles. Now check out part two, which we recorded two weeks later. Iron man part two, Part two. Welcome back. Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

You should have told me you were gonna wear the same jacket. I would have worn the same shirt.

[Sue Bird]

No, it just worked out.

[Tina Charles]

Nobody would have known. Okay, real quick. A lot has actually happened. So we talked two weeks ago. You're currently wearing a shoulder pad.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Tina Charles]

In games. What is that about?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, my shoulder's just acting up. I think it's just the Knicks and acts of being an older player.

[Tina Charles]

What is the pad?

[Sue Bird]

Oh, it's a lidocaine patch. Just for it to go numb a little bit. Just so I'm not feeling. Feeling the pain that I'm feeling throughout each and every single day.

[Tina Charles]

Okay. Because I did notice that you also beat Seattle.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, we won a game.

[Tina Charles]

We won a game.

[Sue Bird]

We won one game.

[Tina Charles]

You won a game. You know, we talked a little bit a couple weeks ago just how hard the season is. Like a lot of losing, you know, new coach, rebuilding young players.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, that was coming off of a 10 game losing streak. So it was great. Just to snap it, we added Layla Lacan, which she's been amazing. Such a difference maker. And just how she's able to read the floor. A willing passer can create for her, for others. So that definitely opened us up that second half of that game that we just won. For sure. She definitely was a difference maker.

[Tina Charles]

So you think her addition is kind of what's changing at all?

[Sue Bird]

Yes, it was definitely her for sure.

[Tina Charles]

Does Marina have like a timeline?

[Sue Bird]

Marina does have a timeline. God willing. I'm hoping after all star break.

[Tina Charles]

Okay. But yeah, I mean, yeah, you and her, you guys can be. I feel like, this always happens, Right. Like, the teams that end up being at the bottom of the league, they end up being, like, the spoilers. It'll be like a team needs two wins to get to the playoffs, and then they meet you guys.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

And I'm not trying to, like, put you out of the playoffs already, but, I mean, you can.

[Sue Bird]

No, I get what you're saying. I mean, throughout my career, I mean, yeah, I'm used to. I've been in this position before where it's like, all right, if we're not going to make it, who can we, like, bust up? But I think we're just going to try to get better, you know, peak at the right time. Time. You just never know how the second half of the season can go. Some teams actually go backwards a little bit or get stuck a little bit, so you just never know.

[Tina Charles]

That's true. That's true. All right, so you've obviously had a very successful career, but one of the things we talked about after the last interview was just some of, like, the tougher moments you've also had in this league. And to be honest, like, when you kind of go through. When I started going through some of the things we talked about and then just researching a little bit more, it's like, I might argue that there's no other envy VP that's had to deal with some of the stuff you've had to deal with.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

So let's go back to 2019.

[Sue Bird]

Okay.

[Tina Charles]

Okay. So you've played in New York for six seasons at this point. You guys have had. You've been knocking on the door of getting to the WNBA Finals. You've had successful years. Then the 2019 season comes.

[Sue Bird]

Yep.

[Tina Charles]

And they don't bring you back.

[Sue Bird]

Mm.

[Tina Charles]

What was your experience with that?

[Sue Bird]

That was. Sad moment. You know, that was very heavy for me. You know, that's where the dream started for me to want to aspire to be in the wnba. That was one of the first teams that I watched, seeing women that looked like me. Born and raised in New York. The dream for me was to always win a championship in New York. And so I definitely had to grieve that for that time, knowing what they were gonna do. And I think as athletes, you know, you hear it all the time that this is a business. You see it across other leagues and happen to other athletes, and you just never know how you're gonna personally handle it. So when it happened to me, you know, my beloved team and being home and not being around my friends and, you know, what Am I going into? Yeah, it was definitely a sad growing up moment. And, you know, I think it worked out for both sides, obviously, where they're at, what they were able to accomplish, but just also who I was able to become through that. And it was 2019, we did go into Covid. I was able to be medically exempt, and I just locked myself into a gym and just got better and just used it to fuel me to be better, a better athlete, a better pro.

[Tina Charles]

What did they say to you, though?

[Sue Bird]

What was said was that they wanted to move forward. You know, Sabrina was coming in, it was gonna be a different chapter, a new era. They were bringing in a new co. But it's not what was said, what wasn't said and how it wasn't said. I think it's not what you do, but how you do it. And I think that was growth for Jonathan, even himself as a gm. Him and I are on great terms. A lot of respect for the both of us from each other. But I think it was just growing on how I responded to it as well, how I reacted to it as the news as well. Well, so even me as a vet, when I have rookies, or even. Not even rookies, just even players who's in the middle of their career, it's really one of those, hey, nothing lasts forever like, really enjoy it. This is a business. And at some times as a player, you have to take business into your own hands, which I've done, which we've just recently seen DB do. And then the narrative shifts a little bit. But all in all, I'm just very thankful for the experience.

[Tina Charles]

Was that the first time you had to face the quote unquote, business of sports?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I could definitely say that was the first time I had to face the business of sports. And regardless of your stats or who you are or what you've accomplished, you know, every team is going to enter a new era at some point. It's not going to be the same, it's not going to look the same. And sometimes you're not going to be a part of, you know, that next chapter. But it's okay. It's just all about how you handle it. I think that's the big. Just how that's really hard.

[Tina Charles]

How did you handle, like, how did it change how you moved just in the world of women's basketball from that point on?

[Sue Bird]

Just being very aware. And I think that's the beauty of free agency. You get to see what works best for you, what doesn't work best for you. And then that's how I landed in.

[Tina Charles]

D.C. okay, so now we get to D.C. and we already talked about the great year you had. You know, extending your range, becoming more efficient from three, like, you're on a little bit of a hot. And from what you told me, you wanted to go back.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

But then they didn't want you back.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Yeah. So then in D.C. you know, we. You and I, we come from the cloth of Colt Shuriemma. And with that and seeing him, you become the voice of teams at times. You become the person who's pushing players at times. And at times, it's not received in that way that you want it to be received. You know, it goes back to what I said. It's not, you know, what I was doing, but how I was going to about it. But I know what my intentions were. But at the end of the day, there's a lot of respect between myself and coach Mike Tebow. He was still the same person that drafted me and made my dream come true. Back April 2010, going with Connecticut Sun. He was my coach for the first three years. So walking away from that, I was able to just see it as okay again, free agency. What works, what doesn't work. Keep it moving.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Okay. So 2021 is also the Olympic year, so I'm gonna take us to the Olympics real fast.

[Sue Bird]

Yes. Okay.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. So we're in Tokyo, and we already talked a little bit about just how USA Basketball is hard. Yeah, it's hard. It's like people don't talk about it enough. It's a really difficult experience. Tokyo in and of itself, just given everything, not being able to leave the Hotel Covid life. Yeah, it was just a hard Olympics in general. But, I mean, I think that Olympics for a lot of us was. Was. Was a tricky one. And I know for you it was a change in role. So you went from being a starter to now you're coming off the bench, and it was just hard in general. So. And we'll get to kind of like a moment for you in the Olympics, but just in general, when you look at the Olympics, the lead up to. And then when we get there, like, what was happening for you in terms of changing your role?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, that was definitely different. And I think for me, because when I entered USA Basketball, it was fortunately with Coach Oremma as the coach for the two tours that I've done. And for me, his message to me was, you know, you work hard, you do your job like this is where you'll be. And so, you know, My first roundabout with USA Basketball, you know, I had to go through Sylvia Fowles, Swin Cass, Aja Jones, Crystal Langhorn, Kia Vaughn, Candace Dupree, Neca Gu, McKay. I mean, all the great players. There's even players that I'm probably forgetting. Excuse me, but Candace Parker, you know. Yeah. And so coming in and going into Tokyo with Dawn and then coming off of that first half, the season of which I was having in D.C. and just where I was at, you know, I think every coach, USA Basketball, or even WNBA in the pros, you go with the players that you trust. And at the end of the day, that's what she did. And I mean, it was working, you know, so for me, it was just to. To be mature, take that and just try to be the star in my role, which I wanna say I've always done when I put on the USA Basketball uniform.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. So when you think about just your experience in New York. Right. Not being brought back. Same in D.C. and then, you know, having a different role, like, these are like three kind of like, pivotal moments. And I'm curious, like, do you look back on those three things and, like, see how it maybe changed you as a player, as a leader, your understanding of. Of the game?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. I think the word that comes to mind as you were speaking was just. It was just very humbling. Just very humbling and was just a chance for growth. You know, I don't think true character is shown until you face adversity. And just how I'm gonna choose to respond to it, you know, I can be a pro or I can be a distraction. I could be a part of a solution or I could be a problem. And for me, I always strive to be the latter. A solution, to be a pro. So I can be able to have these conversations with the next generation coming in when they're facing changes, when they're facing, I guess, in a sense of being uncomfortable, how to be comfortable when you are uncomfortable. And just the beauty in that, moving forward in just life in general outside of the sport.

[Tina Charles]

I mean, what you're saying, it's like, on paper, that's the exact right answer. But it's not always easy to do. And then I feel like in the world of sports, you then have to tie a performance to that. So for you, in the Olympics. Olympics, we're in pool play. And I just want to set the stage a little bit because it was an interesting. It was an interesting moment, I think, for our team in the pool play. Because this Olympics, Tokyo Olympics, they changed the format, so I don't even remember exactly, but there was a bunch of different pools. You obviously play the round robin in your pool, but then the way you qualified, it was based on record, but it was also based on other pools records. And then obviously it goes to, if there's 10 ties, it's point differential, all that stuff. And what was unique about this was we played France in our final pool play game and they had lost to Japan in our group, so they were like back against the wall. And for us, we had kind of already qualified. See, like I can see on your face, you don't even really remember the details because we didn't really know what was happening. I'm not joking. We were like, cool. I think win or lose, we qualify. Like obviously we're going to win and we're going to try to win. It's not that. But for France, they were in a scenario that we didn't realize till after the game where they couldn't, they couldn't lose by More than 13.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Give or take. Don't quote me on this, but loosely, they couldn't lose by more than 13. So we were facing a team that was like, oh, we got it. Like we got to play well because, you know, against us it could be anything. If you, if you mess around, it could be a 20 point game. So with that, that game meant a lot for France.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

But it was also for us, even though we were gonna move on. You know, you're playing against a team that you might see in the battle rounds.

[Sue Bird]

So it's like we're not setting the tone. Yeah. Trying to set the tone.

[Tina Charles]

I mean, we're never messing around, but we're not messing around either. Okay, so with that first, I'm actually gonna start at the end.

[Sue Bird]

Okay.

[Tina Charles]

Which is. What is your memory of this game? But then who reminded you of this game?

[Sue Bird]

My memory of this game, Honestly, I just remember, you know, as you had mentioned, different roles and it wasn't just me who had a different role. Sylvia Fowles had a different role.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, you both did.

[Sue Bird]

You know, we both were coming off of the bench and I remember her and I just talking to ourselves, just talking amongst each other, just trying to stay engaged with the game because it's a new role in the sense of, you know, when you have your bench, you know, their process on how they get going for games is different from starter's process. Right. So. So really trying to figure that out. You're sitting there for a while, you're trying not to be Disconnected. It's Covid. There's nobody in the gym. You're trying not to let your mind wander as much as you're sitting there for as long. So that's really where my mind was. All right, stay engaged, Stay engaged. But the game was really back and forth, so it wasn't like it was hard to not stay engaged as if it was a blowout. I to want. Want to say the practice before I had sprained my thumb, we were like, practicing a press, and someone hits my thumb and, like, I go out and I'm just like, you know, this hurts. Get mri. Like, yeah, you sprained. I have to put on this, like, makeshift, like, cast. So even as I am sitting there seeing the game and I'm feeling my thumb, I'm like, in the back of my mind, I'm also hoping, like, you know, I hope I don't go in because of the way I'm shooting. I don't know how this is gonna go. Just adjusting with this cast that I had on.

[Tina Charles]

Okay, so again, I already set up the whole situation. Did you know that up until that point, that game, you had only attempted in all of your Olympic Games? So 20 Olympic Games prior, you'd attempted one three pointer.

[Sue Bird]

Gavin, it's probably a grenade too.

[Tina Charles]

I know, right? Like a 3, 2, 1 jump.

[Sue Bird]

It's probably the grenade.

[Tina Charles]

You attempted one. So in the two Olympics prior, and then the couple games prior to this one, you attempted. Attempted one.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

And you had only attempted one prior to this game in that Olympics, which means you had attempted any. Except for this Olympics.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. And perspective is going into coming out of COVID That's when I really started working on my.

[Tina Charles]

Oh, no, for sure. I'm just saying this wasn't like something you were doing.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tina Charles]

You with 59 seconds left in the third, in a tight game, you hit a three. So you hit your first Olympic three ever. And you put us up 69, 65. We lost the. The lead, but then you drained another one, as I already mentioned, early in the fourth to give us a 74, 72 lead. And then at the five minute mark, you hit your third three, and it puts us up 10. So basically it's like cushion.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Now we're up 10 with five minutes. Obviously, we're not, you know. Yeah, you're not relaxing, but you're like, okay, exhale. And that was when you did this. This is your third three.

[Sue Bird]

Is that the bow and arrow?

[Tina Charles]

Sure is.

[Sue Bird]

You see the cast?

[Tina Charles]

Oh, just a little pull out the back and a. I Mean, when I saw you, I think we talked about this a couple weeks ago, but when I saw you, because I'm the. I'm Jewel passed to you, but I'm like, in the. When I saw you go bop, bop from the back, I was like, oh, no, she didn't just whistle the bow and arrow. There are three. And I.

[Sue Bird]

She pulls out the bow and arrow. But again, I also didn't know what was, like, happening, you know, And I think it was really great that I wasn't really aware of the situation with France. I just came in, I was just like, I'm just gonna go out, do my thing, try to make an impact. And that's exactly what happened.

[Tina Charles]

But more than anything, it's like what I was saying. It's like all the things you said about being confronted with adversity coming of like, you know, you have a fork in the road. It's easy to say it on paper, but it's different to actually live it and then perform. And in this scenario, you performed like we needed that. We don't win that game without. Without that boost, you know, you also. You didn't just have the threes. You. You did other things as well. Like I said, I just looked at the last one, but, yeah. And then I think my favorite part of the story is. Is how somebody reminded you of it.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So then now I'm. I'm playing for Fenerbahce this past season, and I'm with Valerie, who was at the time the coach of France, and she reminds me that I made these threes. And she was just like, I didn't even know that you make threes. And she said the same thing as you. Like the previous Olympics, you only attempted one, maybe two. And I was like, yeah. I said, the funny thing is, I didn't know how important that game was for you all. I was just going to out just having fun. I got minutes and making the best of it.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Like I said, we ended up winning by 11. I feel like the number for them was 13.

[Sue Bird]

It was.

[Tina Charles]

So they were. They were one more Tina Charles three pointer away from not advancing, and they ended up winning a bronze medal.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

So that was, like a huge game for them.

[Sue Bird]

It was.

[Tina Charles]

It was.

[Sue Bird]

It was a special moment, though. It was. Yeah, it was fun.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, it was fun for me, the era was the best part by far.

[Sue Bird]

What's up, y'? All? It's Kenny Beachum. The 2024, 2025 NBA season is over. But all that means for us is that the 2025. Sixth season is already beginning. On Small Ball, we'll be talking about breaking news, major trades, and all the exciting developments the offseason has in store. Which teams are tearing it down, who is retooling to make a championship push, and what teams are leaving me dumbfounded by their lack of direction. Don't miss Small Ball with Kenny Beachum. New episodes drop every Friday. Available on YouTube and wherever you get your podcast.

[Tina Charles]

Something else you brought up a couple weeks ago was just almost like your advice to kids who are playing USA Basketball, like, what you've learned from it and how it's the one moment it's a rebound, a deflection. Obviously, in this case, we're talking about a couple threes, but it's just the one moment that might arise, and that is where your impact lives. And that's what you have to practice for. Focus on not necessarily, like, how you play in your WNBA team. And I don't know if you were paying attention, but recently the America cup team went down to Chile. So it's college kids that go, okay, because obviously everybody's playing in the wb.

[Sue Bird]

Is this Cara's team?

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. So Cara Lawson's the coach.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

And it's Olivia Miles, Hannah Hidalgo, Michaela Blakes, who is mvp, a bunch of, like, Madison Booker, you can go down the list. And the best thing I saw was, like, your words come to life. I watched the final. It's college kids. They're playing against Brazil in the final. This, by the way, qualifies us for the World Cup.

[Sue Bird]

Okay.

[Tina Charles]

So it's like a big thing. And they're playing against Dantes, they're playing against Cardozo, playing against all the pros that Brazil has. And a couple things I saw. One Flage FL Johnson didn't really play much. She was coming off the bench all tournament, didn't really play much. Comes in the game. I think it was the fourth quarter. Comes in the game, goes over, pick and roll. I think the. The player tries to, you know, throw it back to the popper. She gets her hand on the ball, tips it, somebody else steals it, layup. And I was like, that's the moment.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

So Flage is probably going to think back, potentially on the finals, like, maybe just like in her own mind, not. Not in a complaining way. Like, man, I didn't play much. You actually literally helped win the game.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

She doesn't do that. You don't know, because it was tight.

[Sue Bird]

It is.

[Tina Charles]

And then Hannah Stolke, post player from Iowa, there was like a three minute span where she. It felt like she got like every defensive rebound gave Dantes, like just enough resistance. Dantes had 35, by the way. I mean, it was like grown women amongst. Yeah, she was just like backing them down. It was so funny. But yeah, just like a three minute span. And it was just really cool to kind of like see your words come to life in these young kids.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. I mean, even at like that age, it's probably even harder, you know, especially with social media now the nil and just mean to your institution. But again, you know, USA is one of the most uncomfortable situations as a player that you will ever actually be fortunate to be into. You know, in the sense that only two people get to be comfortable and be able to have their role. And then you have to figure out what your role is. Not that you haven't been doing it, but this is just what's needed more. You know, you're checking yourself at the door, sacrificing the me for the we. And there's gonna be a moment where you get a rebound or it's an outlet pass or it's a deflection that really gives you that feeling of, man, I had that 30 point game.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

You know, like, like you walk away with that. And that's exactly what I walked away after that French. That France game was like, man, I really. Yep, that was that moment. And I've always had one of those moments in the Olympics. And it's just great when you get around those players and you get to reminisce and talk about it as we're doing now. But it's really special to be able to be able to put yourself second.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, I know this Americup team you're going to hear. If you go on and like searched it up right now, it would be Hannah Hidalgo's performance. Olivia Miles. I already said Mikayla Blakes was mvp. That's what's gonna be in that story.

[Sue Bird]

But it's flaw J.

[Tina Charles]

But it's Flauje's deflection and she'll be.

[Sue Bird]

Able to take that and the leader that she is, her LSU team for someone that she needs who's like in the depth of the bench, like, hey, I had this moment. You're gonna have your moment too. And then when she gets into the wnba, it's always gonna stay with her. And I hope it does shout out to her same.

[Tina Charles]

But yeah, I mean, you brought up. It's just. It's so uncomfortable. There's so many stories when we sit back and. And that's why I'm gonna bring up the story of all stories.

[Sue Bird]

This is the best part.

[Tina Charles]

I don't even know.

[Sue Bird]

I don't even remember it, but I just remember.

[Tina Charles]

I remember it v. V vividly.

[Sue Bird]

Just hearing it, it's like, if it wasn't me, I'd be like, yeah, you're definitely talking about Tina. You know, like, as far as the.

[Tina Charles]

Conversation coming up to you, the lack thereof. All right, how do I even begin to tell this story? I remember exactly where we were.

[Sue Bird]

I don't remember it at all. Okay, Is this Paris? This is Paris.

[Tina Charles]

We're in Paris, and we're heading. We played in, like, a tournament.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

We're heading to the Czech Republic for the World Cup. Okay. Okay. So that year was one of those years where those of us that aren't in the WNBA playoffs are, like, off doing training camp, getting ready, and then, like, we're getting players as the playoffs is, like, ending. Right. So, sadly, what that means is. And this is another part of USA Basketball that's just the reality of it. There's no way around it, but it does suck, is that as we're going through this training camp and we're. You know, we went to Paris. I think we even went to Italy. We were, like, all over. As players start to come, they start to make cuts. So we're now on the last day where there's some players who are with us, like three, four, that aren't going to. That are going to get cut and have to go home while the rest of us go off. And so how they did the cuts this year was they had you come in to a room with Coach Auriemma and Carol Callen, sit you down and, like, tell you your fate. But basically, Dee and I were obviously, like, the captains of the team. Whatever, whatever. So we were, you know, by and large, we kind of knew we were on the team. So we did our meeting together. They had us do it together. I don't know why. I don't know why, but they did. So we go into this room, and they're like, hey, just want to let you know, like, you've made the team. And then they're just kind of, like, chatting to us.

[Sue Bird]

Probing.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Just, like, general questions like, how did things feel? Like, do you feel like, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we're just chatting, chatting. And I don't even. This part, I actually don't remember exactly, like, who, when, where, what. But your name comes up, we have a conversation about it. Cool. We leave the room and they're like, all right, whatever we had planned, it's our last night in Paris. So we're like, we're going out tonight.

[Sue Bird]

We're going out tonight, but we're gonna meet up to eat, we're gonna pre game, and then we're gonna pop out. Yeah, I remember.

[Tina Charles]

So me, Dee and some others, we go out to a restaurant, like, not far. And I remember we hit you up. We're like, yo, when's your meeting? You're like, this time, like, all right, this is where we are. Just come meet us after. Cool. So we're just sitting down, doing our thing, eating some food, in walks Tina, you sit down, and we're like, yo, how'd your meeting go?

[Sue Bird]

Ready lit a little bit.

[Tina Charles]

A little, little bit? Yeah, a little bit. Yo, how'd your meeting go? And you're like, yeah, good. Like, you know, I'm on the team. Ha. We're like, yeah, D. And she's like. She's like, I'm acting like you're not sitting front of me. And then you were like, but Coach Arma told me you two said, I don't pass enough. And we were like, I actually think the words were coach or said, you two call me a black hole. And we were like, I've never in my life. So those that know me and Dee, obviously, you know how different we are in those moments. I was just kind of, like, frozen a little bit. And Dee went into, like, word diarrhea. She was just like, oh, no. Trying to, like, cover it up. I've never in my life felt the way I. I felt in that moment. Because it was true. We did say this, but the fact that you just a came straight to us.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, that was New York. We gonna talk about it.

[Tina Charles]

Oh, we were saying. We saw our last interview.

[Sue Bird]

Like, we gonna talk about it.

[Tina Charles]

I'm from New York. This is what it is.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

I couldn't. First of all, I couldn't believe you came straight to us.

[Sue Bird]

I mean, again, for me, like, I know I'm saying the New York thing, it's like, very. If I, like, I have to go to the person. Like, I'm not gonna go to this person and this person. Like, you have to go to the person. That's just the code of conduct when you come from the mall.

[Tina Charles]

So what were you thinking, like, walking over to dinner, like, oh, I gotta ask him.

[Sue Bird]

I wasn't. It wasn't even something on my mind. I thought it was something like, okay, they tell me I shoot a lot, but then if I Start passing, they're gonna be like, taylor, why was you shooting the ball? And then it's like, so it wasn't even for me. It was more so like a. Oh, this is funny. But also I know it's serious. Like, oh, he's. By the way, he also said that you called me a black hole. By the way. My way of getting here.

[Tina Charles]

Even sitting here now, I'm so uncomfortable.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, trust me, I face worse.

[Tina Charles]

It's fine. Would you like to share those? No. Yeah, so that happened and we did recover. I don't even know what the hell we said to you, but we were just like, no. Yeah, well, no. Kind of.

[Sue Bird]

For me it was more so putting you all on the spot just to see like what it was, but also just to learn at the same time.

[Tina Charles]

I think the reality was, and we talked about this, the reality was like, first World cup.

[Sue Bird]

Was that my first.

[Tina Charles]

Yes. 2010. So yeah, yeah.

[Sue Bird]

So I'm going to my first World Cup. So it was also to learn like, okay, what more, more or less to do or so on and so forth as well.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Because this is also a part of USA Basketball. It's like everybody can score, everybody can go one on one. Everybody can do this, everybody can do that. So if somebody is doing it too much or like unnecessarily doing it, maybe in your case as a post player, maybe you're double teamed and shooting it. Cause in the WNBA you would do that.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Tina Charles]

It then becomes like, okay, and why.

[Sue Bird]

Are we here for.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, not why are we here? But like why not just give it to wide open.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

You don't have to do the hard one because there's an easy one right there, you know, like really what I'm trying to say is the more you play with USA Basketball, the more I think you do start to get a feel and understanding of it never has to be hard. If it's too hard, it means you probably shouldn't be doing it because it means somebody else is open.

[Sue Bird]

Exactly.

[Tina Charles]

That's, I think, where we were and.

[Sue Bird]

That'S what I learned from it.

[Tina Charles]

Yes.

[Sue Bird]

And so it was also to learn, but it was also to. To like put you guys on the spot at the same time. Cause up to that point I had been around you guys and knowing you guys, I knew it was gonna be a funny moment, but also a teasing moment.

[Tina Charles]

It was so funny. And you know, we're not gonna let coach Auriemma get off free here because that was the thing that I really couldn't believe. I could not Believe he did that.

[Sue Bird]

I actually could, though.

[Tina Charles]

I cannot believe he did that.

[Sue Bird]

I could. It didn't actually go over my head. I didn't sit there like, oh, my.

[Tina Charles]

Gosh, no, no, forget you. I couldn't believe he would do that to us, Seriously. So the next.

[Sue Bird]

From his eyes, in a sense, like, yeah, you're letting sue and D down by shooting Sue. That's how.

[Tina Charles]

But he didn't even say we said it.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, that's how it came across in my mind.

[Tina Charles]

So the next day, we were traveling. We were in the airport. Me and Dee are, like, waiting. When we saw him, we like. We're like, yo, can we talk to you? And we're like, why did you tell Tina that we said that? And he's like, she needs to hear from her teammates. And I was like, like, no, she's here from you. Coming from us is different now. Is there a place and space for a teammate to have that conversation with a teammate? Absolutely. On their terms? Yeah, on their terms. Not like some behind it, behind a back. And then. So, yeah, we were pissed at him.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Oh, my God, we were so mad at him. I couldn't believe he did that.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, he turned up that night, though. It was great.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, we had a great night. Then I ended up being amazing. Amazing. All right. Okay, so back to the wnba. Just like some of your final seasons, like, really since 2022, it's. You've been, like, up, down, all over the place. So, like, 2022, you signed with Phoenix.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

We already discussed how that didn't pan out. You get traded mid season, but we didn't discuss being on the team when D and Skyler.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Got into it on the bench that one game.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

Just how that impact, you know.

[Sue Bird]

Like, even just backtracking, like, going into that season was, like, really, like, the first time you were gonna see that type of, I don't know, super team with what that team was supposed to reflect and even the depth that we had coming off the bench. And so it had to be, like, one of the first in WNBA histories, in a sense, maybe outside of you guys in Seattle, when, like, Sheryl Sueps got there and swing and it was that type of blend. But, yeah, OG Yeah. But then, like, with sue and D, I think Skyler and D. Shit. The Skyler and T. The closest that I can relate them to was, like, a Kobe and Shaq dynamic, you know, that anyone notable can just put in their minds, like, just two great competitors wanting to get the best out of you. Each other. And how to go about it is just not translating. And sometimes these scenarios work out, and sometimes it doesn't. And so, yeah, for me, it was hard because both of them are just probably the top two competitors I've ever been paired with.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Five, two.

[Sue Bird]

And I've been very fortunate and blessed to witness their approach, you know, witness how they go about the game, what gets them going, how they get their other players involved and going. And, you know, I think I said it to you off camera, like, every day you're meeting somebody, where they're at. You know, every day someone is coming in with something, and it's your choice to have grace, your choice to have patience and to be understanding. And so even though obviously it didn't work out, but I think worked out in the end for both where. Where Dee's Phoenix, how she ended sky being in Seattle and flourishing and what she's able to do right now with that team. So it's just great to have been able to witness from afar again, both of them, you know, being back in a position of positivity and being able to flourish not only as players, but also as just individuals.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. So speaking of meeting people where they're at, you then come to Seattle and, you know, it was. We talked. It was an adjustment. You weren't starting when you first got here, then moved into the starting spot. We hit the playoffs. I still. I will repeat it. We just needed, like, a couple more weeks, and things would have. But you shared a story with me that I wasn't even aware of. So, Tina, why didn't you meet me where I was at?

[Sue Bird]

You want to share it, the story? Yeah. So we. We just got back to Seattle from playing the first two games at Vegas in the semifinals. And so we're watching film. We're in the locker room. We watch the first bit of film, and then the slide comes on, and it literally says good clips. And it's Stewie and I on each block. The ball's on the strong side, on Stewie's side. I flash to the high post. Whoever the wing player is passes it in to me. My man drops in front of Stewie, her man's behind her. I can't pass it to Stewie. I take the shot, it goes in. Noe pauses it, and she goes, that was a good shot, Tina. Like, that's what we need. And you speak up and you say, yeah, Tina, that's a good shot, but you have to look for Stewie. And in my mind, I'm like, I don't know what to do here, I.

[Tina Charles]

Need to see this clip.

[Sue Bird]

In my mind, I'm like, all right, you know what? I'm just gonna put pass it Cool. That's what she wants. That's what sue wants. That's why she brought me here, to pass it cool. I'm just gonna pass it. So then we start speaking of maturity. So then we start practice, and we're doing five on, zero transition. We're doing different things, and I'm just passing it every single time. Five on, no. You know, the first man down. Supposed to be a layup, pump fake. Pass it out to the three. I'm hearing the huffing and puffing, and in my mind, I'm just like, nope. This is what they want. They want me to pass it.

[Tina Charles]

They or Sue?

[Sue Bird]

I'm gonna pass it every single. Every single time. And, yeah, I was just like, yeah, that was probably, like, a low light for sure. I mean, I could laugh about it.

[Tina Charles]

Did Piff say something?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, Piff definitely came up to me. She was like, come on, yo. Like, stop doing that, man. Like, da, da, da. I was like, nah. So you want me to pass the ball? She don't want me to shoot it.

[Tina Charles]

Cool.

[Sue Bird]

This is what she brought me here for. I'mma pass the ball. Piff is like, nah, chill, chill, B. Like, nah. You gotta do all that. But, yeah, that was fun.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. I mean, you told me this two weeks ago is the first time I heard it. I didn't even notice. I was like, oh, finally. She's finally passing. God, what a great practice. But, yo, what happened in game three?

[Sue Bird]

Nah, game three? Yeah. I was honestly.

[Tina Charles]

You were dropping. Dying.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. It was finally clicking.

[Tina Charles]

You fucking played your best game.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, it was finally clicking. Everything was clicking. So I guess it worked. Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

That's funny. Okay, we already know what happened at the end of that season. And next season comes 2023. You don't play.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

You don't get signed. So what's happening for you?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, so 2023, I think that's. That's where the humility definitely set in. I've been at the highs of highs, had the lows of lows, didn't play that year. And I really had to figure out, you know, my identity outside of basketball. You know, who am I outside of basketball? Something I've been doing my whole life. You know, it really felt as if you're married to someone and that person just leaves, you know, it was sort of like a constant in my life, just suddenly stopped. And not knowing how to adjust to that so there was a period of time where I was just, like, struggling. I couldn't watch, you know, going into the summer, so I couldn't watch the wnba. I did not watch anything. I just remember I went to Fort Green Park Park. And I think persons who are not spoken about enough in our league are our chaplains. And just how fortunate we are to have that 60 minute at the 60 minute of every league. You know, you have chapel and you can go. And I'm close with the New York Liberty chaplains. I'm Yvette Hamilton and Vanessa Holiday, and I was at Fort Green park in Brooklyn. I was living in Brooklyn at the time. And we met up, and she just sat down next to me, and she said, when's the last time you played? And I said, since we've been Olympic eliminated. And that was like, September, second week of September. And right now it probably was like, July, August. I just did not touch a ball. And she said to me simply, just like, how do you want this story to be told? You know, do you want it to be told in a sense, like, this is what happened. And then you just stopped. And so I slowly got back into the gym. Then I had an opportunity to play in China. And then that's when I found the love for the game again. And that's when I started playing. And I was just like, you know, you know, the opportunity is there, January of 2024, to play that I would love to play. Let's see what it is. And that's when the opportunity with Atlanta had came about. But honestly, that 2023 year is probably like, the best year out of all the years in the sense of to be able to slow down, to be able to recollect, to be able to see God's faithfulness. I actually went to Bible college, New York School of the Bible. I was able to get into the Word and really restore my faith and just really lean on him in a sense, like, all right, Lord, if this is where you have me, I'm just gonna trust it. You know, if it's the end, it's the end. You know, nobody wants to end. Not on the court and not on their terms. But if this is what it is for me, I'm just gonna trust where you're gonna place me next and just keep having faith. And. Yeah. And then 2024 comes around and had.

[Tina Charles]

Opportunity with Atlanta, so you really feel like you are in a place where if the Atlanta call doesn't come and that ends up just being the end of your WNBA story. It just would have. You would have been okay with that?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Yeah. That's just how built up of my faith that I was. Like, you know, lord, if this is your will for my life, if this is what it is, I trust where you're going to place me next. That's just how built up in faith I was. Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

So do you feel. How would you describe how you feel now that you did get to play again in Atlanta? You are still playing in Connecticut? Is it a sense of, like, gratitude, like you're thankful for it? Or is it more like. Oh, is it more just like, allowing you to feel even stronger about your faith? Like, things always work out the way they're supposed to?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

This was meant for me.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I would say that. You know, I think every time I have this type of conversation, I always say, you know, God gets the glory, you know, worked out for my good. And he got the glory in the sense that I got to see his faithfulness on the other side. But even if it was, it wasn't what I wanted. I knew that I would be walking in the path that he had for me. You know, if my career would have ended with you all in Seattle, I'd have been like, all right. If that was just the amount of years, that's what it was, and it was great. And I would have just pulled the positives, pulled the highlights and the low lights of who it made me to be. But I would definitely would have wanted to speak on this for players to know, like, you're going to have highs, you're going to have lows, but don't give up within it if it's something that you still love. And it was what I loved. And again, I didn't touch a ball for probably a year. For probably a year, I didn't do anything, didn't touch a ball, didn't watch basketball, nothing.

[Tina Charles]

No, there's so much wrapped up. I mean, I can say it now as a retired player, it's like. Which is totally different, but there's so much identity wrapped up in all of this, like, who you are and what you do. You know, being one in the same is not, like, the healthiest place. But as a professional athlete, it kind of is who you are, and what you do is kind of the same because you're, like, living it.

[Sue Bird]

Yep.

[Tina Charles]

You're not ever. I always say it's not, and this is not. I never want to compare other careers, but we as athletes, you're never checking anything. You're never leaving anything at the office.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

It's just always, ever present.

[Sue Bird]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Tina Charles]

It's never. You can never leave anything at the office. So it's just hard to do that separately.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, it was. And, you know, I didn't speak to anyone. I was really to myself. I was very isolated. Only a select few really knew how hard that year was for me. But more importantly, just for me, just being able to be present in 2024 with Atlanta, to be able to go out and do my job and to be a pro coming off of that, that's. That's what was special for me, was to be able to see that through.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. Get to the other side.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

All right, before we go, last time we were here, we mentioned one of the more insane stories that I've ever heard. I called it. I call it an all timer. It does involve a potential drug test. I feel like it's time to share it.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So it's April 2014. I'm playing in Russia with Danai Mom. I'm playing with Lindsey Whelan and Chrissy Toliver. Great year. Love both of them. I want to say we just end regular season getting ready to go into Euro cup, and for some reason, we have, like, I don't know, 10 days off. So after the game, we win. We're hype. And he's like, hey, you guys have off. So I'm like, oh, clutch. Lindsey tells me where she's going. Chrissy's going home. We're all going home. I'm like, all right, I'm going to go home. Then I'm going to go to the final four. NASA. So go to Nashville, and I'm with Kaleina, and I go to her hotel, and it's probably maybe, what is it, like, three days already? Whatever. And then it's like, I think we're going into the championship game. And so, like, there was a Tootsie Roll on the desk. And I'm just like, oh, Tootsie Roll.

[Tina Charles]

Haven't had the Tootsie Roll that long.

[Sue Bird]

Like, let me have it. And she's in the same. So grab a Tootsie Roll. Eating. And even to this day, I don't even remember anything being different. Get to the game. And I'm like, whoa. Like, everything just ended up like, what? The Tootsie Roll ended up being an edible.

[Tina Charles]

And so wasn't she like, yo, where's my Tootsie Roll?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, she was also like, where's my Tootsie Roll now? But even at that point, she doesn't say anything to Me, though, you know, so then not until it hits me. And so take the editor. Edible never did edibles up to that point. It was, like, my first one. And so, I mean, I'm feeling good. You know, I'm at the game, feeling good.

[Tina Charles]

We had appointments, like, milligrams.

[Sue Bird]

It could have been 20.

[Tina Charles]

Oh, my God.

[Sue Bird]

Could have been 20, 20. Could have been. Or 15, 10 or something. Ended up feeling good. We went.

[Tina Charles]

It's like a nightmare.

[Sue Bird]

We won the championship.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

UConn.

[Tina Charles]

UConn wins.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, UConn wins. And so I have to go back to Russia. So now when I get back, back, land our dobo, if you want to say he calls me and he goes, tina, you have drug testing. And, like, my heart. My heart just, like, falls.

[Tina Charles]

Before you continue, I just want to set something up. Okay. First of all, weed, marijuana in feba, when you get tested in, like, feba, which is wada different from the WNBA as an example, is like, in the category of, like, steroids and shit, you get banned, people. Two years. Weed, one pot, you're done two years. So 2014, you're not playing.

[Sue Bird]

Exactly.

[Tina Charles]

You're not playing that World cup, and.

[Sue Bird]

You'Re not playing in the Olympics.

[Tina Charles]

You're not playing in the Olympics because if you do have that happen, you are suspended two years.

[Sue Bird]

Yes.

[Tina Charles]

Your clock restarts if you play anywhere else. So if you played in the WNBA in 2014, 15 or 16, your clock would restart.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Tina Charles]

So you're either not playing for two years, period, or you're just, like, not going to go to the Olympics.

[Sue Bird]

Exactly.

[Tina Charles]

Or the World Cup.

[Sue Bird]

So I didn't know. Which is wild.

[Tina Charles]

I want to add one thing.

[Sue Bird]

Go ahead.

[Tina Charles]

They never tested us in Russia.

[Sue Bird]

That's bizarre.

[Tina Charles]

They ne. I never got drug tested in Russia.

[Sue Bird]

Bizarre.

[Tina Charles]

Anytime we traveled, it was like, I. I always believe there was just, like, they didn't want to get the visa. It was like these, like, drug testers, like, wada, whatever. They didn't want to come over to Russia. I never in my entire time over there saw a drug test or got drug tested in Russia. Anytime we left. Yeah. They could come grab us.

[Sue Bird]

That's bizarre.

[Tina Charles]

So this is just crazy. Like, from the jump.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So I didn't know obviously, all of that, but I did know. Okay. World Cup, Olympics. I knew it was something.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah. I knew it was serious.

[Sue Bird]

I knew it was serious. And my heart just, like, drops and I'm like, what? He's like, yes. You and Lindsey have drug testing, whatever. Come to the gym early, get up, hang up Call Kaleina. And I'm just like, like, yo, remember the edible that I just took? Like, by accident? Da, da, da. This is what it is. And she's just like, all right, man. You gotta take, like, shots of vinegar and water. Shots of vinegar and water. I probably downed a bottle of vinegar.

[Tina Charles]

And this is like, three, four, five days after you've taken the edible.

[Sue Bird]

No, this is probably two days after. You have to understand. Yeah. Cause it's, like, championship and then. Yeah. So that's why I was freaking out. Fuck.

[Tina Charles]

I mean, even five days, I'd be freaking out.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So now I have to go to the gym. And, you know, way she goes, she does her thing, and she's like, bro, you can't breathe, bro. You need some beer, bro. Need to go get a whole garden, bro. I got you, bro. You know, Weezy, just like. And so, like, I'm, like, sweating bullets. I'm, like, nervous and everything. So I try to go before, and it doesn't meet the ph. It looks clear. Like water. Practice go clear. If practice probably was, like, at 5pm I didn't leave there until, like, 10. It's like a table full of just different tests. And the ladies, they looted. Yes. The lady's getting pissed. It's not me reaching the level. She has to go. And then that was just that.

[Tina Charles]

And then she just left.

[Sue Bird]

She just left.

[Tina Charles]

This is something else I've never heard of.

[Sue Bird]

That was just. They couldn't test me anymore. Like, they ran out of containers.

[Tina Charles]

You peed them out of containers?

[Sue Bird]

Ran out of containers.

[Tina Charles]

That's crazy.

[Sue Bird]

And, like, probably not until we got to camp and we had dinner. It was me, you, way and Dee. And then I remember I was sitting next to Wei, and I was like, hey, remember that day? And da, da, da.

[Tina Charles]

But you hadn't told her up until that point.

[Sue Bird]

I didn't tell her up until that point. I didn't say anything. I was, like, panicky freaking out.

[Tina Charles]

But, yeah, I would have been freaking out.

[Sue Bird]

Don't take candy from anywhere.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, that's the lesson. I mean, don't they teach that? Don't take candy from strangers? I guess Clayton is not a stranger.

[Sue Bird]

But I. It was. Yeah, it was crazy. It was just a table full of different. Like.

[Tina Charles]

Oh, my God.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, but vinegar and water, though.

[Tina Charles]

I know. So it's like, what people don't know is when you get drug tested, you do. You get this little cup. You gotta fill it up to a certain thing. And then they do, like, a tiny little ph test, and it has to be at a certain number or else it's considered diluted. And I think. I think it's like for this reason. And. Or there's probably like, you can't get what you need out of diluted pee. But anyways. And you have to go again. You just sit there and have to go again. Or if you don't fill the cup up enough.

[Sue Bird]

Exactly.

[Tina Charles]

You gotta freaking sit there and wait and go again.

[Sue Bird]

For me, I was freaking out.

[Tina Charles]

Top three things I don't miss.

[Sue Bird]

I was freaking out. I was like, is this how I'm gonna go out? A Tootsie Roll? I just wanted a Tootsie Roll.

[Tina Charles]

Like, Tootsie took you out.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I was just like, I just wanted a Tootsie Roll. I haven't had one since like hot Halloween when I was like 8 or something like that.

[Tina Charles]

Sweet tooth. Got you, man.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I was. I was like, yeah, yeah, it was scary.

[Tina Charles]

It was scary. No, that story, I mean, it was spooky. Oh, my God, there's so many stories like this, but that one, I mean, I can't believe you outped the drug tester. Yeah, they were like, I gotta go. Was it a. Was the person Russian? Do you even know?

[Sue Bird]

I don't know. I have no clue. Because it was for Feba, you know, because we were in Euro cup, so it was. It wasn't like Russian League.

[Tina Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sue Bird]

It was for Feeba. Yeah, yeah. Out of this world. And then they just left. And that was that. I asked my dobo if they were coming back and it was like, no. And that was it. Yeah, that was it.

[Tina Charles]

That's crazy. For sure.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, that was it.

[Tina Charles]

All right, that is it for Tina Charles and our first two parts episode. Those might have to happen again. We'll see. So much fun talking to Tina. Obviously we have so much history, so it was really cool to reminisce to hear her side of things. And you know what? Here's hoping that she follows me one more time and makes it to year 20. We'll see. All right, that's it. This episode is a co production of Together in Vox Media. Our producers are Tommy Alter, Jason Gallagher, Richie Bozek, Harry Krinsky and Jess Clarendon. Melanie Carter. And a special thanks to Ramon Dompore.