Q (3:17)

And welcome to 2026 and welcome to Freedom Set Friday. Freedom Tech Friday is a weekly live and interactive show hosted on the Ungovernable Misfits, X Noster, YouTube, Rumble and Twitch feeds. We go live for one hour every Friday at 9am Eastern or 2pm UK time and you can of course catch up later on the Ungovernable Misfits podcast feed on Freedom Tech Friday. We like to cover the latest news and trends for anything relating to freedom technologies that could be anything from Bitcoin, Monero, Encrypted messengers, privacy tools, and everything in between. Essentially, if there's a news item, tool or topic that can help you take back some control in today's digital panopticon, we want to talk about it. My name is Q and A. I'm Head of Customer Experience at Foundation where we build Bitcoin focused sovereignty tools. As always, I am also joined by my good friend Max, the head honcho at the Ungovernable Misfits Empire, and Seth, who is now the COO at Cake Wallet Free. Insect Friday is a live and interactive show and you can help steer the conversation by commenting live, pre submitting your questions via socials, boosting the show via podcasting 2.0, sending in your tips, or just sharing the show with your friends. Top support for our final show of 2025 with Keon Rodriguez comes from Late Stage Hodl who sent in 6,006 SATs and just said Paul Pardon Samurai. We co signed that message of course. Thank you for your support. Late Stage Huddle. We do have a guest I'm going to bring in shortly, but without further ado, Max, Seth, welcome to 2026. How's it going guys? And I just realized that I haven't allowed Seth into the chat.

Max (4:50)

Yeah, I was just about to say here he is.

Guy Swan (4:53)

Am I gonna play Seth right now?

Q (4:58)

I said here he is But I haven't. I'll add him in one second.

Max (5:02)

There he.

Guy Swan (5:03)

Welcome.

Q (5:04)

How we doing?

Guy Swan (5:05)

Howdy.

Seth (5:05)

Howdy. Me and Guy look similar enough. I feel like he could.

Guy Swan (5:08)

He could.

Seth (5:09)

He could be me. We've got the fancy mic set.

Guy Swan (5:11)

We can pull it off.

Seth (5:12)

Similar headphones. We both have beards. Like, I don't know. It could work. It could work.

Q (5:16)

There you go. You've got your next time you want to go on holiday, Seth, you've got your standing.

Seth (5:20)

Exactly. Exactly.

Q (5:23)

Max, are you well?

Max (5:24)

Very well, mate. Very well. Enjoying my coffee from my new coffee machine. So. Never been better.

Q (5:30)

Still a decaf, I hope.

Max (5:32)

No, no, I'm. I'm. It's creeping up two a day now. And I knew you would.

Guy Swan (5:37)

I knew my laziness has me drinking Fiat Starbuck today.

Max (5:42)

It's all right. From time to time. Now I've got this new coffee machine for Christmas, so I'm. I'm a happy, happy boy.

Seth (5:48)

Espresso or coffee?

Max (5:51)

It's Q. Knows more about the machine than me, but it does espresso.

Guy Swan (5:55)

It does everything.

Max (5:55)

Does all this stuff.

Q (5:56)

I'm very, very jealous. But check the tapes, listeners. On the last bitcoin brief, I did call that this was going to happen. That it did. The caffeine would slowly start to creep back in. And Here we are nine days into 2026 and he's already capitulated.

Max (6:10)

So you're a wise old robot.

Guy Swan (6:12)

I'll.

Q (6:12)

I'll take the victory lap on that one. Anyway, well, welcome to Bats and Freedom Set Friday, Everybody. Welcome to 2026. Hope you had a good Christmas break. I know I did. It's filled with lots of merriment, family times, and probably a little alcohol, but here we are. Today, we are diving into something a little bit different. A technology that can potentially allow us to build apps that work without central servers. No cloud, no accounts, and no middlemen. Hole Punch and Pear are the stack that bring apps like Heat and Pear pass to life. To guide us through this new, I guess, frontier, we've got none other than Guy Swan, host of the excellent Bitcoin Audible podcast and the most vocal advocate that I'm aware of, of of the. The kind of hole punch, slash pair and Keat ecosystem. So, Guy, welcome to the show. Pleasure to have you with us. How are you?

Guy Swan (7:06)

I'm doing great. I'm doing great. I appreciate you having me on, man.

Seth (7:11)

Good.

Q (7:11)

Yeah, it's. It's a pleasure to have you here, but just to. Just to quickly set the scene, other than being an advocate for the, the, all of the aforementioned stuff that we're going to dive into. Do you have any actual like working relationship with the guys?

Guy Swan (7:26)

Sort of. I, I've been like kind of, I guess you could say part of all of their groups and conversations and stuff for two and some change years now. And I hope to be able to show them Pear Drive when, when we kind of get that to a state that I think it's that I would be confident enough to say listen, if you would like to invest, I think I have a very serious project that's you know, built on the pair stack. But than that not really. Like we did the, the pair report and like I had them on a couple of times when, when I had that show running for a short period but I was spreading myself too thin so I, I, all my ancillary or secondary shows I just kind of cut them. But which I still talk about the pair stack on the show all the time. It's just not the pair report anymore. But so no, not, not really. Not really. But I do work with them and talk with them all the time. They have invited me week at the plan B conferences which you know, is that whole crew, you know, it's tether and then they, they help fund a bunch of the development on this. So yeah, that's weird answer but not, not, not really. But yes, that's fine.

Q (8:44)

I just wanted to clarify because obviously like I said I'm not getting like.

Guy Swan (8:47)

Paid by like I don't have like a salary from them or something like that.

Q (8:51)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. And I definitely want to dive into, into Pear Drive later in the show once we've kind of set the scene a little bit. But I guess to, to kind of get us started. What, what problem is the kind of hole punch ecosystem trying to, trying to solve like why, why does it even exist in the first place?

Guy Swan (9:11)

You know, I think about this a lot and I think it really just boils down to censorship like privacy and surveillance and you know, control over your media and stuff all come with that. But it's really kind of like you have to solve those problems to ensure you can be censored. And so like if I, if I wanted to put like one thing on it, it's, it's about changing the structure of how we deal with data and how we connect and how we identify each other in such a way that we are the ones who control the network, the content and the connection and not someone else. Because we have found ourselves in a place where the Internet does the opposite of that, and that was never the intention.

Q (9:56)

Yeah, I mean, it seems like a very, a topic that's very tangential to Bitcoin in, in its values and in its properties. And again, we're going to dive into those. But yeah, from, from my kind of early research, like this week in building up for the show, it seems to be kind of removing middlemen, reducing the risk of, of centralization and censorship. So, yeah, again, just very tangential to Bitcoin. So I guess let's just dive right in at a high level. What is hole punch? Is it a company? Is it a protocol suite? Is it kind of a philosophy? Because that was something that kind of confused me because there's lots of names and things that are all used in the same sort of conversation. I got a little bit confused with like hole punch, pair key.

Guy Swan (10:44)

Like the naming convention is. The naming convention is blockers. Yes. And it's because it's a very, very long established project or a very long project, like 12 years old or 11 years old or something like that. And it's gone through many iterations to get to where it is today. And it started out with an entirely different name and kind of intention of how it was going to be sold or positioned for users. And so it was the hyper stack back then. So there's like hypercore, hyperdri Drive, Hyper B, hyperswarm, like all of these different things. But really what it is is it's a protocol stack. It's a networking protocol stack. So rather than like one simple piece of networking, it's like, okay, how do you deal with, how do you deal with sending information out in a distributed way? And how do you deal with conflicts? How do you deal with ordering of that information? How do you deal with establishing and holding intermittent connections? Like, how do I connect it? Like, if we're. All three of us are connected, how do I establish that if I lose connection to one, that the stream doesn't drop? You know, like, there's like a bunch of different primitives that have to be sorted out to make this work reliably. But I honestly think this was kind of like the whole concept of the Internet, right? Like, that's, that's what tcp, the Internet itself is just how do you make a reliable network on unreliable hardware is. Because centralized is the opposite of that, is how do you. You have, you have one thing, and if that thing goes down, then everybody loses their connections. The Internet was intended to be the solution to that. And this is basically taking it to a new level. And now it's basically referred to as the pair stack. I like that better. I think it's a much better way to. To refer to it, and that's how I refer to it. Hole punch itself is both a method. It's an idea of, like, how this is possible. But then it's also a company. It's also the company that's doing all of the development. So they are Hole Punch Inc. I think, and I think sometimes they refer to the set of tools that they have developed as like the hole punch stack or something like that. But I think it's easier to just think of it as like the pair stack, which is a set of protocols and hole punch the company. That's how I think about it.

Seth (13:12)

It's not a true bitcoiner created tool if it doesn't have a lot of configured names that no one can come up with. It's like, if you don't do that, you've gone wrong somewhere.

Q (13:25)

All right, so I appreciate that. 1. That makes it much clearer for me. So we've kind of used the term like decentralized network, and obviously I'm immediately drawn to the analogy of, okay, well, how does this compare to the bitcoin network, which is a decentralized network that we're all very familiar with? On Freedom Tech Friday, what analogies can we draw between the two types of network? Are they similar, or is that kind of in name only? I want to clarify that before we dive into the building blocks of what actually makes this work, because it almost seems like it's too good to be true.

Guy Swan (13:57)

Right?

Q (13:59)

Yeah.

Guy Swan (14:00)

Yeah. So in the context of, like, I think it makes much more sense to compare it to BitTorrent, because Bitcoin, like Bitcoin, is the BitTorrent of money, really. But there is one thing that bitcoin has that decentralization generally doesn't need. And it's a global consensus. And in fact, oftentimes you don't want global consensus on everything. There. There's a lot of drawbacks and there's enormous organizational problem or coordination problem, and you have to have everybody understand the same state of a thing. This is exactly why bitcoin is so restrictive in its use case and its scope is because the consensus problem is so unbelievably difficult that as soon as you let it do too much and let it grow too big, the consensus itself breaks down. The reason that that consensus is valuable breaks down. So in the context of general decentralization, you don't have consensus over the BitTorrent network. Right. When you're like file sharing. You have like 20 people over here sharing this movie, and you have 2,000 people over here sharing this other file or podcast or whatever it is. Doesn't really matter. It's just. It's just a data distribution network and they don't have to care what the other people are doing. And everybody else can go offline and all their stuff still works. This is much more like BitTorrent in that way. Whereas BitTorrent also just had an enormous amount of drawbacks. There was huge benefits, but it was also very dated. It was super clunky. There were a lot of restrictions and how you could do stuff. As soon as you, quote, unquote, made a torrent for data, for a piece of data, it was trapped. Like you couldn't do anything with it. Like, if everybody, like let's say, for instance, like, if I had like my podcast and I publish and my, my feed or whatever as a, as a torrent, well, as soon as I want to add another episode, that old torrent doesn't work anymore. Like, like, I have to. I have to break it and make a whole new one to add a new episode to it. And now If I had 10,000 people who were downloading and listening and seeding that podcast to other people, well, they're all gone now. I just started the tournament and I have to go find those 10,000 people again and get them to reconnect to me. And so the alternative would be I have to make a torrent for every single episode, but then I have to figure out how to get it to them. And I don't have a torrent. Like, like the network is too fragmented and kind of isolated, so there was no update mechanism, so to speak. And so the idea of the pair stack is if you built BitTorrent today and you actually wanted it to kind of have the capability of just doing everything that we're used to on the Internet, have a website, update, some stuff. I can change this file, and there's just a record of the file being changed. There's a new update, there's a new episode in this feed. There's new information about this profile from this individual. How would you do it? And so the stack, the hyper stack, the protocol that they build is basically a combination of like, okay, what would be the main primitives that you would need and how would you solve each individual problem? And then you put them together like Lego blocks, and you can build an application that just kind of delivers a website, but it does it on the back end. In a BitTorrent way. But on the front end you can just make it feel like the web. So it's a way to basically solve the problem of, of the shortcuts we built to get here with the way the web and social and all of this stuff works in a new stack that does it basically without the band aids. Like we hacked it together.

Max (17:56)

Let's fix it with the similarities with Bitcoin. On my little bit of reading with all of this stuff I was reading up on their pair pass. I guess one thing that I would say is similar is like personal respons by not relying on these centralized servers, if you don't back up or you don't have things on multiple devices, it seems as though you're.

Guy Swan (18:20)

Yeah, for, for better or for worse, you are responsible. Yeah, yeah, it's very much like your keys, your data sort of thing. However it doesn't. It also has the benefit like, and maybe we'll get into this in like a separate question or framing but there's nothing like, there's a lot of like, oh, there are no servers, but there's no reason that this has to shun servers. It's really just, there's no centralization by default. So. But you can easily leverage it so that someone else has a backup of your stuff and you can build it so you, you can pay for it just like you would on the normal web. You just don't have all of these enormous frictions that you would otherwise have around doing that or the difficulty in providing that service. Like, I mean, how many people really know how to set up a server and then host data storage for somebody else? Like the, the complexity and pain in the ass and most everybody's just going to rent from AWS to then forward that service to some other user because it's just, it's kind of a nightmare to do. I mean the barrier is sort of low, but it ain't that low. And that is exactly why we have found ourselves on a whole bunch of centralized. Well, one of many reasons we found ourselves on a whole bunch of centralized platforms today.

Q (19:47)

All right, I want to kind of. This is the question I've wanted the answer to the most about the whole stack. And it gravitates towards generally how does it work. Right. Networking is probably my least favorite part of interacting with computers. I just don't understand it properly. With that said, I probably never.

Guy Swan (20:07)

I have a love. I have a very love hate relationship with it.

Q (20:11)

Yeah, indeed. Indeed. Now I, I know enough to be dangerous. Right. I know that, you know, connecting peer to peer over Tor is, is latent. But it's easy. There's no port forwarding and all that jargon. How does the pair stack kind of fix that without I, I, I understand needing Tor or any port forwarding? Like, how can my computer talk to your computer without all of the usual or traditional hurdles that we normally run up against when we try and do that sort of stuff?

Guy Swan (20:41)

Okay, so without getting too clunky about it or too in the weeds.

Seth (20:49)

It.

Guy Swan (20:50)

Essentially does it very similarly to the way BitTorrent and just any general DHT, any general peer to peer network would. But, but even like, there's even things like, like Bitcoin, you are not a listening node if, unless you like pour forward and you actually make it so that you're accessible on the web. And so that's still like a problem. There's a lot of, there's, if you think about it in the comparison to BitTorrent is you have Cedars and Leechers, you have people who just download and you have people who upload. Well, most nodes on the Bitcoin network are just downloaders. They're downloaders and they're securing it for themselves, but they actually can't handle requests from other people because of this really frustrating networking issue. But essentially everybody at their, in their home has like a really big painful firewall and it's like, okay, well how do you, if I want to get through it, how do I get through it? And so the hole punch mechanism that they have built, the, the easy way is kind of if we don't have like a broadcasted method of like, okay, this is the exact port we're using and nobody knows what port we're using. And there's 64,000 whatever ports. How could you, how could you make it so that we could agree on a port without, but without communication, like without actually being able to identify exactly what the other one is using. And they take advantage of a, of a fascinating little statistics trick called the birthday problem. And so have you ever heard the thing that, you know there's 365 days in a year, right? And so it's like how many people do you need in a room for two people to have the exact same birthday? And the number is something like 29. I can't remember exactly what it is, but that seems crazy. That seems like very tiny in consideration to, there's 365 days. And the reason is though, is because you don't care what day it is, right? You don't care if the birthday is January 1st. If you had one person that says this person's March 12th, how many people do you need in a room to, to have another person whose birthday is March 12th? Well, you need like, you know what, what's half of 360, 150, 180 something 182. And.

Seth (23:14)

So.

Guy Swan (23:15)

But if you don't care if it's March 12, if you don't care which person you're matching the birthday with, we only need like 29 or 30. And then there's going to be two people who have the same birthday on one of those 365 days. And so they do the same thing with ports. It's like, okay, well we're gonna, we're gonna ping on random ports or common ports or whatever and I'm going to look for your response on this one. And we're going to keep trying them until we just happen to have an attempted handshake over the same one. And then we're going to essentially allow across through that port and then boom, you can establish connection. And shockingly, you can actually do that. Even though there's 64,000 ports on a computer or on a network, you can do this in just a couple seconds, like one or two seconds. It's very, very fast because computers are fast. And so they've basically created this method. And unless there are like insanely restrictive firewalls and like communication standards or whatever there every once in a while there's like a super like VPN behind a VPN thing that like, it's like you're not on a very friendly network. This is not going to work very well. But otherwise it just, it just connects. And it's kind of wild that it works that way. But it's not got the horrible latency of Tor because it's clear net. It is encrypted because you're actually identifying each other by your key. So it like all communication is literally through your public key. So it's like, you know, sending a bitcoin transaction is you don't have to worry that if they locked it to your key, you don't really. Nobody else is going to get the bitcoin. Same thing with the communication in the pair stack. And, and it just, it just works. It's fast, super responsive and super quick. And it's kind of wild because not much does that on the Internet.

Q (25:10)

And is that a one time thing with each specific peer? Like that kind of, you know, where we, we choose random ports and so we connect and then once, you know, once my computer's found Guy's computer, that's it. It's kind of locked in.

Guy Swan (25:22)

Or is it is like unless repeats itself in. Unless ip. Unless you just don't get a response. Like unless the IP address and stuff changes. But if you change the IP address, like I did testing with a PEAR drive after we updated, or I can't, I can't remember what the update was that was driving me crazy. I think it was something with how we were using Hyper B. But I was like, okay, like, how do we deal with. How do I make sure? Like, I'm sorting out, like local network changes and IP address changes. And like, if you like, I would disconnect, have it stop in the middle of a file transfer, disconnect, log into my vpn, reconnect, boom, starts right back up where it left off. I disconnected. I literally shut my computer open it back up, reconnected, continued where it left off. Then I. Then I specifically renewed my lease with the, with my router so that I had a new IP address. And I went from, you know, 172 to 248 or something like that. And boom, reconnected and picked up where it left off. So it. I don't know the intricacies of all the little details of how they have done this and the. I think this would be the hyper swarm part of it. I'm not even sure which networking piece they. This would be in, but the. Their mechanism just. It just works. It just works really, really well. And it just refreshes if you have a IP address change and. But otherwise the data is saved and it just continues to try the, the old thing obviously to be efficient. Like, it wouldn't, it wouldn't make sense to do the complicated part over and over again if the computer's still there.

Seth (27:18)

Yeah, I think maybe something to compare it to for people who are familiar with tailscale. I know under the hood, it works differently than tailscale, but a similar idea of allowing you to connect two devices peer to peer with NAT traversal in a way that has essentially no impact on speed. Like you said, you're not losing speed like you're doing a TOR connection or something, which I know a lot of people, especially in the past, have used Tor for this type of P2P app, which is good from the sense of it's very simple, but bad in the sense of the latency is just so bad comparatively to something like a tailscale or a hole punch. So I think for those that Are familiar with tailscale. That's a good comparison as well to think of it in a similar way. Different under the hood, but similar way.

Guy Swan (27:59)

Yeah, it's basically tailscale without like a, a server doing. Assisting in the connection. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth (28:07)

No coordinator.

Q (28:10)

What does identity look like on. On the one we're using this stack. Like do I have like a singular identity? Is it different across my different devices? Do I have anything to back up? Like what, what does that look like for a user?

Guy Swan (28:26)

So this is, this is actually totally up to the user. So right now the way it's done is every instance creates a new public key, but everything is public private key pairs, everything. So, but then the network itself, like the, the. They're referred to as topics but essentially the, the group or the. I guess you can think about it like a, A live torrent that you're connecting to has its own like topic key. So you can access the, the network from a bunch of different devices even though your devices have different keys. As long as you have key to the, the conversation, so to speak online. And, and that can be public or just you privately hand it around to people so that they can join it. But everything, everything is public private key pairs. And every device, like every instance that you boot this up creates a new key pair. However, if you want a persistent kind of like global identity, you would create a key pair and then you would generate sub keys from that, which is also kind of a simple application that you could do in this, in this whole stack, but you can basically create it however you want. So it's like you have public private key pairs. How do you want to manage this? Do you want to have a global identity? Well, you can build your app this way. Do you want to just have it where every device is just a device and everybody connects and we're just kind of handling things by the conversation keys. Well then you don't have to do any of that. So it's really just up to the builder because the, the protocol is kind of agnostic to whether you want an identity or not. You have a public private key pair that can be an identity and is a device or you can just refresh it on your device over and over and over again. It doesn't really matter. It's really just how do you build. What do you want to build with the app? Just like the web, like you can use a website without users. You know, you can, you can create one that has accounts, create one that doesn't. Everybody's anonymous 4chan. So essentially you do the the same thing here. It's up to the builder how they want to use the protocol. But if you want a global identity and you want basically a backup, you would do a. You would basically have a seed phrase just like you would with Bitcoin and everything would be connected to that, that master key. And if the data was still available out there on other people's devices, like other conversations and you put that master key back in, you would be reconnected to those conversations, redownload the messages, data, whatever it is.

Seth (31:05)

Yeah, kind of circling back a little bit to the peer to peer approach. I think something that's always jumped out at me and I've always kind of wondered about. I actually like, I don't necessarily always want my apps to be peer to peer. I actually am kind of a big fan of the the intent encrypted but centralized server infrastructure approach. That signal notes Nook, Proton, et cetera. A lot of really good tools in the space use and I think there's a lot of benefit of like leveraging the, the privacy and censorship resistance that you get from the intent encryption with the centralized server infra that gives generally a better user experience. Like why in the pair stack was it seen as necessary to go P2P only like that is what we want to do. Like you said you, you could build something that has some sort of server infra as well. But the whole approach from the ground up is built to be peer to peer. Like why is that seen as necessary as opposed to centralized server infra? That because of the intern encryption, because of the privacy that's built in, can't actually see anything and thus cannot perform any targeted censorship. Obviously they can do just complete whitelist or blacklist censorship. But that's a whole, whole nother side of things.

Guy Swan (32:14)

I think that's actually a misunderstanding because of how everybody like math and crew and everybody who's building it talks about it and basically how they, they kind of like philosophize on what their goal is and specifically how Keat is built and all of that stuff. But I think it's really much simpler is that there's actually no centralized servers aren't shunned in this protocol. There's nothing wrong with centralized servers are still totally possible. It's just that if you can build the entirely peer to peer version and the entirely blind forward and the entirely distributed data version, well then you can just take the benefit of the centralized. When the centralized provides a benefit like from the context of like Pear Drive is like I have no problem with centralized servers either, as long as I am not subject to them. You know, as long as I am not dependent on them and they don't own my data and they don't own my ID and they don't own my network connections, well, then centralized servers are great. They're just service providers. You know, like, imagine if somebody could facilitate your package going from A to B, but then they never actually owned the package. And if they tried to open it up and steal your stuff, your packages disappeared from them and you still had it, you could send it to somebody else. Well, then I don't really care who does it, and I don't care that it's centralized either, because it's still mine. So, like, actually a really great way to think about it is Bitcoin. So when I use Phoenix Wallet or Nunchuck or whatever, I'm using a centralized service for my node. Unless I connect my own personal node. I'm using Nunchuck's node to determine where my Bitcoin is and my transaction history and all of that stuff. And maybe I connect over Tor. We have like a private thing so that, like, I do that so that they don't know exactly what I'm requesting or use neutrino filters or whatever. But they're a centralized service and they're providing me with that service. But if I don't want to use them, I don't have to. They're just there to make it easy. Just like you said, it's a much better user experience if it just plugs in and it just works. Well, this is the exact same is you can build and it still sometimes has a lot of drawbacks and it's still much more difficult to do it this way. You can build totally distributed, totally peer to peer and everything, but you can also just have somebody set up a server and do the NAT traversal and everybody connects to that from your service. But the big thing is that if you still build things as topics, you still have it so that the network connections and the keys, the identities are, you know, built into a hyperswarm. What you're doing is you're just helping to make sure that the network is always there, the data is always there. And if you go down, everybody can actually still connect. Everybody can actually still do the peer to peer way. Everybody can still get it the peer to peer way. And if somebody, if not all the data is there because you were. Everybody was leveraging you, well, then some people lose their data. But until you come back online, but it's just centralized is totally possible. And in that's how I think about it with PEAR Drive is that I would love everybody to be able to peer to peer sync and just easily connect and download stuff between their devices. But there's also nothing wrong with PEAR Drive or you or anybody else putting up 16 terabytes on the network and saying can I, can I pay you or can you pay me? If you want to pay me two bucks in Bitcoin or whatever, I'll let you have 100 gigabytes on my computer and offer it as a centralized service. There's nothing wrong with that. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Seth (36:01)

Yeah, that's super helpful to realize that it can be a mix and match thing. And I think especially your point at the beginning of having the option and the functionality already built out to go the hardcore peer to peer only way gives a lot of freedom to developers and users to choose like what's best for you. If you are super hardcore and you never want to touch a central server and you can choose not to, that's pretty awesome. And if you want the best user experience and you're willing to sacrifice something for that, you could use the central server infra that someone is providing. That's a good, a good, good way to think about it. And I had not realized that from the way I've heard people talk about this deck before.

Guy Swan (36:38)

It's definitely confusing because I think the die hards, the philosophical die hards don't want to want to sell it in this. Like it's all peer to peer, it's all decentralized and that everything's distributed but it's like there's no reason for that. Like the benefit is that like now you can just host something with NAT traversal and easy connection and like I can easily. I do it all the time. I'm, I'm doing it right now. I host a few services on my Linux that are totally centralized and I have all my other devices connect to them and use them. I do like a bunch of AI stuff. I do an LLM because that thing's got like a hell of a GPU that my other devices don't have and I just log in and use it and I do it over wholesale, which is, which is tail scale but the pair version and that's it. It's a centralized server that I'm just hosting myself. But I can let you log into it too. I could just give you my key and you could log into Ollama on my computer and you could just use it to, you know, chat, GPT, whatever you wanted. But I don't want you to do that because I'm, I'm using my gpu. But, but yeah, it could be centralized or whatever. It's, it's, it's totally up to you.

Q (37:49)

Nice. We've talked a lot of protocol stuff. I want to kind of bring it to life from a user's perspective. We've kind of danced around the fact of, you know, there's some, some popular apps that have emerged built upon the Pair Stack. The most popular among which would be, would obviously be Keat, the messenger app. We've also got Pear Pass and Pear Drive, which I want to dive into as well with Keat. Like, we've kind of spelled out the obvious that, you know, there's no centralized servers, it's peer to peer. I presume it's encrypted. When I've been listening to other podcasts where you and some other guys have been chatting around, something that was interesting to me was around the unique scaling aspects that the Pear stack offers, particularly around like message rooms and file sharing and things like that. Could you maybe just dive in a little bit more and kind of put some meat on those bone for us as to like, what the benefits are there?

Guy Swan (38:42)

Okay, so there's. If you go the kind of like distributed data route and everything is a topic, so you can have it where. Well, actually by default when you create something, it's created as, as your key. And so like you're the owner and then you can constantly update it. It's really much, it's very much like a feed. Like when you subscribe to a podcast feed like in Spotify or whatever, you can't edit the Spotify podcast, you can't edit the podcast feed, and if somebody else connects to it, they're seeing the exact same thing. It's owned by the host. Right? It's owned by the person who made the feedback. And then you can connect to a whole bunch of different feeds and you can do whatever you want. And those feeds can go wherever you want. You can do them through Apple podcast app, you can do them through Castbox, you can do them through Fountain, you can do it through Spotify. Doesn't matter. It's the same, same feed everywhere. Those are just windows into looking at them. Well, Pair Stack works very similar to this conceptually. And. But there is an issue is if your host goes down wherever you are, keeping it on the, the Internet like mine is Castos right now, if Castos went down, my podcast would be gone. Even though people listen to it on Apple podcasts, Fountain, Spotify, Castbox, whatever, the source is down. And, and what's funny is that like tons of those people, you download the episode like it's there on your phone to. To listen to. Like it might be in 20, it might be on 20, 000 different devices, but because the central place is gone, the whole thing is nobody else can download it. And then there is the hug of death. You have a website on a really small. You have a really small website like a blog and like you have an article that just like, boom, it hits home, it goes viral. You know, you got a digitalocean smallest droplet that you can afford at $10 a month or something, and a million people go to your website trying to read your article, and the thing's down. After the first 10,000 try to connect, it's just dead. And you're scrambling. You're like, how do I spend 800 from AWS to get a bigger server? Oh my God, this is such. And everybody who wants. While your content is in its height and it is most desirable and everybody wants to see it because it's news. You. Nobody can get to it.

Seth (41:06)

It's.

Guy Swan (41:07)

It's dead in the water and you're scrambling to try to keep it back up. Those two things are problems of centralization specific, like just because of the architecture of how the data is built. And it's horribly inefficient, it's horribly fragile. If my podcast goes down in the pair sense, everybody has joined a topic. If I as my host go offline or Castos goes offline, it's still out there on, you know, 20,000 different devices. And if you can't connect to me, it just connects to somebody else and downloads from them. So somebody else listening to the podcast will feed the podcast to you. Like it just exists, just like BitTorrent, right? If 10 cedars go offline, but there's still 900 cedars left, you just download it from somebody else. And because of this, the scaling properties are incredible, especially for something like a. Just a simple website with an article. If a million people are trying to download it, that's fantastic for your up up time. That just means that it's in a million different places and a million people are providing it. Your, your website, your tool, your whatever gets faster and more responsive and it's easier to download. Like a. A movie with 10, 000 cedars is like the best thing ever. It's like, because now I know I'm gonna get it at insane speeds and I'm gonna be able to watch it live if I want to. But if there's only three seaters, well then now we're all bottlenecking on just those couple of computers trying to download the movie. But every new person that gets it makes it faster. So this is, this is, this is actually utilizing the beautiful nature of the Internet and how great it is.

Seth (42:48)

In.

Guy Swan (42:49)

A, in a way that's self reinforcing. So popular content is just more available and it doesn't, it doesn't cost you like you. I don't, I don't have to figure out how to get like a w. A Server to handle 1 million users. In fact, I don't even have to be online. I can literally go to sleep, cut off my computers and everything. And the, the content can live by itself. But the big thing is that like, especially what I think the, the right target is for something like Pear Drive is startup costs, man. Like you think of like a Noster client or whatever. Like some people, some people are hosting these relays and thousand dollars a month just in traffic on a small network like Moster. Moster is awesome but you know, a hundred thousand users daily, active users or whatever, that's not a big network. That is not much. And this is eating into the ability for people to run nodes or run relays. That's a huge problem. Startups can't afford that, especially in today's environment. Well, what if you could just host something? What if you could do something with zero server cross? I mean other than just like having something online at your house or something. Like, like I used, I think it was one of Cali's crap. I don't remember. It was a, somebody was hosting like a lightning service and they were literally doing it from like a dual like Raspberry PI thing in their home. And like I was, I used it for, it was like a tipping service that I used for like a year. And like you could literally do that with any service or, or tool or data and you don't actually have to handle all the users. The users can help the other users in a peer to peer way. And that's just, I think that's just incredibly powerful. Like you could, you could make a game where you don't have to have like a game platform. You know that's one of the things we're attempting to do with the paradrive core engine just to show like the breadth of what you can do with it. That'll probably be the first thing that we build with it. Just because I think when people hear like, oh, file sharing or file syncing, they're like, oh, it's definitely just another next cloud. It's like, well, that's, that's what it looks like if you don't think about what you could actually do with this thing. File sharing and data syncing is the Internet. Like it's everything.

Max (45:10)

Can you, can you dive in a little bit to pair drive?

Guy Swan (45:14)

Sure.

Max (45:15)

I understand the sort of. The basics of like, these are almost like applications being built on a whole bunch, a hole punch, network or protocol. But how do these differ from what else is out there?

Guy Swan (45:31)

Okay, so the idea really is for all these various tools. Like ours isn't really different. We're just. I'm just trying to tackle a very specific problem in a very targeted way and I hope I do it well. But the idea is like Keat specifically is a chat app. Right. And one of the things that I, I feel like, I have felt like for a long time they should have just done file syncing first because a chat app is 10, 10,000 times harder to. To get right? And to get all of the organization and the ordering of the conversations and stuff. There's way more involved. Whereas I felt like the kind of lowest, the lowest hanging fruit was get files to sync between my devices. And so that's what we've been focusing on. And it's, it's utterly simple. Like, you know, how difficult, how difficult is it to move files that are, you know, more than 10 megabytes from one device to another, especially if they're not on the same platform. Right. Is that. Sometimes I get the benefit of Apple Icloud or Airdrop, but I swear to God that works half the time. It breaks as often as it, as it works. And it's like Bluetooth. I swear to God, I. Yesterday, Yesterday I tried to move a video from my phone because I still don't have a pear drive on my phone, but I tried to move it from my phone to my MacBook and I'm just. And there it is. I select it and it does this little spinny wheel and it says, can't connect the device. It's like, why, why, why? I don't get it. It drives me crazy. This has literally been the bane of my existence. I have so many data from one computer to another. I lost a whole nother. I lost a whole day yesterday because I ran out of space on my computer again. You deal with a lot of media. Everything's 20 gigabytes. It just is just a pain in my ass. But paradrive is like, how could you make stuff seamless across devices? And how can you leverage that device that has a lot of storage to get the most out of the device that has a little storage? And iCloud really tries to do that, but it does it in such an annoying way and in such a frustrating way and in an unreliable way and, and in a totally centralized way, which I don't like either. So Pear Drive is like, how do you fix that? How do you make it so that when I boot something up and I got all my photos, it just syncs, it just syncs to my Linux. Like, like if I just have it open, it's, it's, it's putting it on my Linux machine. And if I delete anything from my phone or my MacBook, I still see it, I still see the thumbnail and I still connect to my Linux to bring it up and I can, I can even play it directly off of my Linux machine and if I want it locally to edit with or to share with somebody or whatever, I just hit download. But like, how could you actually make that experience just feel like, make it visually aware of where the data is and make it feel like the data just exists everywhere at once. That's, that's what we're trying to do. But then in addition is that if I add you as a friend, you know, you can't. I can't send a, a 1 gigabyte movie file like, like I, we tried to. We recorded a HODL up on Telegram the other night. It'll be super compressed if it's a video. Yeah, but. And it's also like, you know, again, if Telegram goes down or Telegram decides that, you know, everybody knows the story of the Telegram founder and what happened with him being arrested for, you know, letting people have private conversations. So I, I guess he's not arrested now because we are still having private conversations. Probably not. Um, but again, you're dependent on a centralized platform. But you know, if I just want to share, we go on a trip together. It's like, you know, Christmas 2025. And like I, I just scan a QR and I add my family and all my family are my friends or whatever. And it's like a group text, you know, it's like, why can't I just, why can't we just group photo share? Why can't we just group, group share stuff on my Linux machine? Why can't why can't I group host a service. And like there is this like huge gap in how the Internet works and file sharing, there's this like big black space where like file sharing doesn't work. And there is also this mode of interaction where everything is social or everything is like publicly social or everything is like super just direct. And there's this whole missing piece. I feel like of, of, of just file sharing. I can't, I can't tell how many times I'm trying to get stuff to my designer or my producer or whatever. And I'm like, okay, we'll try to do it on mega, we'll try to do it on icloud or whatever. And it's just scattered, it's just a mess. And it constantly is, I have to upload it. And then he's like, there's nothing in the folders. Like it's still uploading. Give it, give it, you know, 10 minutes. Because everything's bottlenecked by the 10,000 other people using their servers right now. And then they have to download it. But like, what if he could just look at it on my computer? We connect directly and the fact that it's on my computer is his access to it.

Max (51:17)

Would that. I'm, I'm very, very non technical, so this might be a stupid question, but when you're talking about this file sharing between friends or people that you're working with, let's say that I shared a video with you, you're in a group chat and it's one of my podcast videos or something like that. And then I get mugged, I go to London. So obviously I get mugged and then I lose my phone, I, I lose my laptop, and they're the two devices that I had that content on and I have no backups. Does that mean that now that I've shared it with you, you have it on your device because you've downloaded it and therefore I could get it back?

Guy Swan (52:00)

Yes. Yeah. If somebody has the, somebody has the content still. Like if you shared it with me and I downloaded it, well then when you booted yours back up, I could just give you the key that you gave me back and you could connect right back to it and then get it back from me. So the end. Like if you had a third of the information, I had a third of the information and Seth had a third of the information and one of us, you know, lost one of our backups or whatever. Like we can still boot back up and all the information is there, even though neither none of us has the. None of, none of us has the full amount. Right. But between the three of us we have the full amount. So as, and that's just as long as you have the key or as long as somebody can still give you the key. So in like a network situation, I can just give you the key, but if it's an encrypted thing, obviously I could give you, I could give you the encrypted blobs, but if you lost the decryption key, that's. We're both screwed.

Max (53:01)

Okay, so in an ideal world, like if someone's running this and relying on this for everything, if this thing builds out, you'd maybe considered like, you'd have like a home server and then you'd have your other, like your phone, your laptop, whatever, your other devices and you're storing most of your stuff on your server. But if, if that went down and God forbid your other devices went as well, you could most likely get a lot of the content back anyway without relying on like an icloud or one of these things. That's pretty cool.

Guy Swan (53:33)

Exactly. But then in addition, you could also just wrap an icloud like service into it as well where you can just say backup everything that's on my server and you could do it in a specifically blind way where like it's just an encrypted blob on their computer. All they know is that there's 180 gigabytes here. They can't, they have no idea what it is. They, they have a key that gives them access to the, not, not the content but just to the communication layer. And so they have it backed up and if I lose my server, I can still just have a network backup and all my other devices can boot back up, decrypt it, look at it, and it's like, like nothing happened. But that's a service that would be a centralized service that you would do. In addition to the fact that you could just have a home server that held it all and you can also have your brother host a home server. Like I'm, I intend to 1. When I get my full on thing set up, my brother is going to host a copy in a different country and he's going to have, I'm going to send him hard drives if I have to and we're just going to have it in two different places and we'll host it ourselves and I'll have his backup and he'll have mine. Why not? We're, we're, we trust each other. We, he would be in my, my friends and Contacts list. Why would you not leverage other people and your friends to. To have a backup for free? Tit for tat. I back up yours, you back up mine.

Seth (54:55)

Yeah, definitely, definitely love that concept. I, I think one thing I want to kind of circle back to. I know Q has a couple of quick listener questions that we can answer as well. But like for the person who is wanting to use this stuff today, like how close are we to this being a boring. It just works everyday thing for a normal person. I know a lot of it can. We can kind of get stuck in theory, but I'm curious like where the state of the actual end user apps are today. In the Pear stack.

Guy Swan (55:25)

There'S still, there's still friction key works exceptionally well, but they change and update stuff so much that it's, it's got a bug every once in a while. Like, like one of my rooms yesterday just like stopped loading. There was like some sort of a rendering bug. And then like I hit math up or whatever and he was like, oh, I think, I think we found it. And they pushed an update like within an hour or two hours or something and it was back up and running. But they, they are doing stuff a lot and because of that it gets a little bit buggy. But I'm constantly shocked. I use this as my daily driver. Like this is like my main work thing. Like all my, all my business stuff, all my work chats and everything and then tons of obviously of just like fun chats. Like the dank bank our, our meme group is. Is on keyed. And this is, this is my main one that's not, you know, Twitter or Telegram. Twitter Telegram and Key are it. So it's in my opinion it's ready. Aside from the fact that all of the end user tools haven't been built, the protocol is ready. The protocol is user friendly. Like Pear Drive would be user friendly if this just wasn't like a huge mess of realizing we built it kind of wrong and then rebuilding it again and then realizing there was something at the bottom that should have been that we should have built first and then built the other stuff on top of it and then rebuilding it again like this. This has been the process of, of. It's a little confusing when you first work with it. It's got a lot of different working moving pieces and you know, if you don't realize which Lego blocks should be on the bottom, you figure it out when you're halfway done with your tower and then you're like son of a. And you have to start over. So that's been the story of Bear Drive and also realizing there's some. There's some oddities and how it treats things like when you share a file into the network as a hyperdrive, your computer actually makes a complete copy of it into what's called a core store so that the files are ready to be delivered. But that means that if you want to share 100 gigabytes worth of stuff, it takes up 200 gigabytes worth of space. That was basically a non starter for us when we were trying to figure out how to do this. I. So again that would. We built it the first way and then we realized that that's how it works. And then we're like, okay, we have to rebuild it again and we have to come up with a new method. And so now what we've got is there's a Hyper Blob system essentially. So we, we use the network to create a communication layer and then we, we. We send around. We. We sync a list, just the list and then. And identify everything by hashes just like BitTorrent does. So you can have a name. You can name your movie Matrix 1999 or whatever. And mine could be the Matrix MP4, but it doesn't. Doesn't really matter. We know it's the same file. We can do whatever we want locally different. But when, when we're syncing that, rather than creating an entire core store for the file to sync, we actually create a. An empty quote unquote hyper blobs like package. And then I just start feeding pieces into it and you download the pieces so that we've essentially eliminated a very frustrating and difficult problem. But again, we've had to rebuild this thing four times. I think, I think, I think this would be the fifth maybe. I don't know. But they're still some, some things to do to, to get the user experience of PEAR Drive where I want it. And I have high standards because I hate that doesn't work so. But when I am even in the messy kind of clunky state that it is right now I'm using the, the proof of concept version which is a command line tool. And. But when I. Yesterday when I was dumping stuff from my MacBook, I moved it with Pear Drive because it's just the easiest way to move 60 gigabytes from one computer to another right now. So it's getting there. It's just been a very, very painful and expensive process to, to find out how not to build it.

Seth (59:52)

Yeah, things are a lot Simpler when it's centralized and doing things in a more normal, more common way. But that doesn't mean it's not the right, the right approach. So we'll definitely.

Guy Swan (60:00)

And specifically when a hundred thousand people have already built a version of it and you can just kind of do it the way they did it. This is fresh, right? Like Keat has just been built and Keats not even fully open sourced. All the base and like protocol and everything is open source, but kind of the, the front facing and how they organize and, and align things is not like the, the, the front app is not open source. Pear Pass is fully open source but it's been out for like two weeks or something like that. And where fam is open source but it's also been. I've been out like a week. Like there's just not any examples. So I'm, I'm going by, we're going by docs and stuff. And so like, you know when you're the first one in the woods, you have to hack a lot of weeds and cut down trees and that's really kind of things the big problem. But after you've got like 10 good apps built on this, I think it's gonna be so much easier. And one of the core things with Pear Drive is our Pear Drive engine or Pear Drive. Core is going to be a simple import and then have a, have a basic like WebRPC type interface so that. Oh, you want to do something with files. Well, here's kind of your primitives and just use the commands. We want amateur developers doing very simple things to just not have to think about the peer to peer stuff at all. And so there's two pieces of this. There's the app and then there's the core. And we are trying to make the core so that other people can build stuff with Pear Drive and not have to think about the at all. So that's also a reason why we have to build it very, very specifically and we have to keep rebuilding it when something isn't right because it doesn't. We, we could band aid it and just make the app work work, but we can't do that and, and then offer it to other people to build. And then they'd be like why is this super weird thing happening or these extra resources being used. It's like, yeah sure, just modify core and do something else with it. No, that needs to be solid and reliable and very easy to understand. So hopefully, hopefully we can be a very important part of making this incredibly user friendly and easy to build with. That's. That's a big part of the mission and why we spent so much time on it. So awesome.

Q (62:13)

Well, I'm definitely looking forward to getting my hands on it. We are at time. I just do. I do want to give you two very quick fire listener questions that were pre submitted and it's almost like you can see the back end show notes here because you've already kind of touched on both of them. But we have a quick question from Schrodinger on Noster who asks about the open source nature of the code. I know you briefly touched on it there and I also want to caveat it by saying that you're only working on one app on this network and you might not have any further information as to the kind of open, open source nature of, of like Keats etc, but is there anything else you have to add on that one or any, any alpha that you have?

Guy Swan (62:51)

It's just key. It's just Keat is not open source. Everything else is open source. So you know, if, if that's like a big thing for trust which completely understandable. I would just wait. Granted they've been on the we're going to open source it. And the reason when I talk to MAF or the crew or whatever, they basically say we're making so many breaking changes and we want to kind of have primitives so that other people can build chat apps like Keat. And so their reasoning has been like if we release something and then make a breaking change, none of this is compatible anymore. And now 20 people who built an app with it have to rebuild, you know, have to retool. And so that's been. They don't feel Keat is done. It still, it still says beta up in the top, right. And I think that's what they're waiting on. But I mean, you know, it's been, it's been quite a while. I wouldn't hold my breath. And maybe they don't open source it. I don't. I don't know. So if that's a big sticking point then you know, just don't worry, don't worry about keep. I think it's cool and it's great, but everything else is open source. Pair Drive is going to be totally open source too. Pair Pass, which they've also built, is totally open source. Warefam I believe is open source Wholesale is totally open source. So there are open source examples. Now Keat is literally the one that they're still working on that isn't so okay Cool.

Q (64:14)

I'm glad you mentioned wherefam because the final listener submit a question from Tam Tam Bam on Noster ask when is where farm going to get an Android release? If you're aware of of that and maybe just a quick 30 second elevator pitch on what the hell wheream is as well would be be useful.

Guy Swan (64:29)

Okay, so find my is giant centralized and Apple has every data point on everywhere you've been and that sucks where fam is. Let me just share my location directly with you and please, you know, granted Apple can still track you if you're logged in and you know all that stuff but, but my I should just be able to control who sees my location. That's what ware fame is and it's dirt simple. It was actually part of a hackathon that they invited me to be one of the judges for and I absolutely chose it as like the. Oh this is great. He was the winner of the hackathon. I can't remember what the reward was but it's like it's dumb simple. It's like you just bring up a map, you share your friends and then you can see where they are. You can you know, say turn it on and turn it off and so like you're in a museum together and you want to split up. It's like where you guys are. Very, very simple conceptually. Very, very simple from an app. I have zero idea when an Android release is. I had been out of contact and I kept searching for it. It's like because literally when he showed it to me in the hackathon I was like literally, dude, I will buy that. I will spend $5 and buy this app right now if this is available. Because this is just cool and it's simple. I love single purpose apps but it was not until very, very recently that it finally popped up and I was like hey. And downloaded it and got to mess with it for a minute yesterday. So Android, not a clue, not a clue. I have not even talked to the guy since the hackathon.

Q (65:59)

All right, okay. Well guy, this has been absolutely wonderful. We are a little bit over time. I just want to say thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. This has been very useful for me and I'm sure for the listeners as well. It's been a great, albeit very, very fast hour. Thank you for joining us Max. Thank you for, for, for welcoming us back into 2026 and for everybody to stopping by in the live chat but a couple of boost over on Noster. So thank you for Everybody in the ZapDoc stream for sharing us with some sats. And uh, yeah, thank you again guys. And uh, we will be back at the exact same time next week for more freedom tech chat. Have a good one.

Guy Swan (66:36)

Good hanging out dudes. All right guys, I hope you enjoyed that episode. Don't forget to subscribe to the Ungovernable Misfits. Don't forget to subscribe to my show as well. Bitcoin Audible if you have not. There's some really fun stuff to unpack and so many things to check out. Don't forget to check out wholesale. That's H O L E S A I L IO as well as Pear Drive actually Peer Drive Core, the general pair stack obviously, but Pear Drive Core is ready to be explored there. Like I said, there are still be some breaking changes on the way, but I don't think the Vibe coding aspect of this and how we've designed it so that it's just RPC commands and like a standard API, we can keep the bulk of it compatible without really running into a whole lot of complexity. And because of that I think it's actually a really great time to start exploring what can be built on it. Just knowing that we'll be replacing the belly of the beast, so to speak. We'll be taking the old engine out and putting in a new one that's far more ready for production use. And I've recently done some vibe coding to clean up some odd edge cases and really fix organization and the logic of some of the processes. And I've been trying to be very careful about this because I know how AI is in making dumb decisions or leaving code behind. And it's really helpful for anybody who's building with it to kind of give feedback on how easy it is or how this wasn't intuitive or the AI or the LLM didn't quite understand what to do with this because there are plenty of ways that we can make this more intuitive. And right now this is an engine, right? This is a low level tool to build things. On top of attempting to extrapolate away all the complexity of the hypercore of the pair stack in general. I hope you guys actually I'll have a couple of little Vibe coded things that I'm going to be building before we have the real paradrive app that I think is kind of the fully fleshed out realization of how I want this to be interacted with or one of the ways that I think it can be. But I'm going to build some really simple one off things to make it clear how broad this tool can be. And while we work on the refactor, which we're really thinking about scale and security with the way that we're redesigning this so that this can actually sustain tens of millions of users, hundreds of millions, billions of files, even at scale. And we have multiple different paths for incredibly heavy scaling and for very large networks that I think are sustainable. And we're just trying to use what we know from the web. Like what does scale on the web and why does it scale and how does it scale? Well, how do we apply that to a peer to peer framework? Hopefully I have some really this could be a hell of a year for Bitcoin Audible and paradrive finally getting a lot of things, a ton of stuff coming to fruition that has been on the sidelines for a really long time. Don't forget to check out bitcoinaudible.com actually the website. Not only can you search through and there's a whole database of everything that we're doing now, all the shows and stuff, but we'll have updates on paradrive and that sort of stuff. You'll be able to see and get access to all of that from Bitcoin Audible, the website. And again, check out Ungovernable Misfits and the newsletter, the Financial Freedom Report. Subscribe to this show. Thank you so much to everybody who zaps on Noster and on Fountain and Stream sats. Check us out on Fountain and throw me some sats if you really enjoy this content. That support is really meaningful to me and shout out to audionauts everybody who supports the show, who is the source of all my great recommendations and shows, people that I should talk to. And it's really great having you guys. You're indispensable. And yeah, that should do it with that. Stay tuned, stay subscribed and I will catch you on the next episode of Bitcoin Audible. And until then, everybody, that is my two sats, Sam.