Paris is Burning / Ballroom Culture

Summary

Podcast Summary: Black People Love Paramore

Episode: Paris is Burning / Ballroom Culture

Host: Sequoia Holmes
Co-hosts: Jewel Wicker, Ryann Graham
Release Date: June 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

In celebration of Pride Month, the hosts dive into the impact, significance, and ongoing influence of Paris is Burning—the iconic documentary about New York's ballroom scene and LGBTQ+ communities of color. The episode blends nostalgia, personal stories, witty banter, and thoughtful critique around themes of chosen family, cultural appropriation, queer language, and the enduring legacy of ballroom culture. This is a deep yet entertaining exploration of a cornerstone of queer Black culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Paris is Burning: A Cultural Touchstone

• Jewel shares that Paris is Burning is her all-time favorite documentary, crediting it for inspiring her interest in documentary filmmaking.
  • “It’s the documentary that I watched in college, I was like, I want to do this.” (01:54, Jewel)
• The doc’s storytelling is lauded for its blend of journalism, empathy, and artful filmmaking.
• The group discusses its timeless relevance, noting how its portrayals still resonate with contemporary issues and pop culture (e.g., Pose).

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2. Tragedy, Empathy, and Realness in the Documentary

• The hosts unpack the poignant and empathetic depiction of Venus Xtravaganza’s story, which blends dreams of love and stardom with her tragic fate as a murdered trans woman.
  • “It is a very beautifully tragic… story. At the end, it is just a story of wanting to be accepted deeply.” (02:18, Ryann)
• The way the film humanizes its subjects, avoids judgmental framing, and captures the authenticity of ball culture is praised.
  • “It wasn’t like judgmental… They were humanized in and of themselves.” (08:53, Sequoia)

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3. Chosen Family and Community

• Jewel highlights the impact of seeing chosen families on screen:
  • “It’s like your family does not have to be blood… you could have this community that is super tight knit, looking out for each other.” (06:39, Jewel)
• The doc’s depiction of family dynamics and support among house members remains especially meaningful.

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4. Evolution and Appropriation of Ballroom & Drag Culture

• Discussion of generational shifts and debates over authenticity—old vs. new ballroom styles, mainstream vs. underground, whitewashing, and the drag world’s relationship to its queer Black roots.
  • “It’s just interesting to see that… there’s that clear through line of, like, new generation coming in, changing things and the older generations being like, not.” (05:27, Ryann)
• The group reflects on reality TV’s adoption of ballroom culture, from Drag Race to Pose.
• Notable crossover: references to the show Legendary and HBO’s My House as modern depictions of ball culture.

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5. Ballroom as Safe Space and Survival

• The hosts examine how categories like "realness" were born from the need for safety and survival, not just self-expression.
  • “So much of the categories came from a desire to be safe… it was all of these things. It was safety.” (33:10, Jewel)

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6. Language—Queer, Black, and Appropriated

• A playful segment on ballroom and queer lingo the hosts wish could be “taken back” from mainstream/cishet/white usage.
  • Terms discussed: Shade, Work, Chop, Clock it, Legendary/ Iconic, Yaaas, Mother, and “tens across the board.”
• The group critiques how terms are diluted, misused, or used ironically/inauthentically online after entering popular culture.
  • “The way that the kids are using it on the Internet now is like... they’re saying that you’re ugly. Like, ‘Yeah, she’s chopped.’” (25:35, Sequoia)
• Discussion expands into cultural credit and the cyclical inspiration between Black women and gay Black men, hitting on tensions, blind spots, and the dangers of TERF rhetoric.

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7. Personal Experiences with Ballroom

• Jewel & Ryann share comical stories about trying to attend or participate in balls, noting just how late the parties start and the intimidation of real competition.

  • “I literally, I think we got there at, like, midnight… by 2:30, I said, I do have to.” (11:52, Jewel)

• Both admit they wouldn’t know what category to walk but express admiration for categories like Face, Realness, Sex Siren, and Vogue.

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8. The Power and Impact of Ballroom on the Mainstream

• Recognition of ballroom’s far-reaching influence on music, live performance, and pop culture—from Madonna’s “Vogue” and Beyoncé’s Renaissance to house music and performance art.

  • “Pop culture in general would be nothing without ballroom. And I’m glad that it is finally getting some of that shine.” (50:59, Ryann)

• Citing the pass-down of house names and mentorship as powerful examples of chosen family and legacy.

  • “Those are the people that raised me. Those are the people that supported me. This is my community. That’s my name, period.” (52:17, Jewel)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Paris is Burning’s Inspiration
  “It is the perfect blend of film and journalism… That is why I was like, oh—I was never interested in being a writer. I was always interested in doing, like, broadcast stuff. And so that was the marriage of those two things.” (03:48–03:52, Jewel)
• On Safety & Realness
  “So much of the categories came from a desire to be safe… Like, why did it matter so much, this idea of realness?... it was actually because you didn’t want to be clocked.” (33:10, Jewel)
• On Appropriation of Language
  “The way that the kids are using (‘chop’) on the Internet now... they’re saying that you’re ugly. Like, ‘Yeah, she’s chopped.’ ...It’s the bastardization of it.” (25:35–25:47, Sequoia)
• On Chosen Families
  “It’s like, no, that is my name. Those are the people that raised me. Those are the people that supported me. This is my community. That’s my name, period.” (52:17, Jewel)
• On Mainstream Culture’s Debt to Ballroom
  “Pop culture in general would be nothing without ballroom.” (50:59, Ryann)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Main theme setup & Pride connection: 01:36–01:46
• Personal impact of Paris is Burning (Jewel): 01:46–02:09
• Paris is Burning's storytelling/legacy: 03:25–05:27
• Venus Xtravaganza’s story: 02:38–03:21
• Appropriation and evolution of ballroom/drag: 05:27–06:31
• Chosen family/theme of community: 06:31–06:52
• Authenticity of Ball culture in the doc: 08:32–09:56
• Funny ballroom anecdotes (trying to walk, late nights): 11:11–13:57
• Queer language segment (“taking back” phrases): 21:07–27:26
• Housewives, Black women, and homophobia: 29:03–30:53
• Danncing the line of inspiration and TERF rhetoric: 31:18–32:43
• Categories and safety: 33:00–33:43
• Impact on pop and live music: 50:24–51:24
• Chosen family & house names: 52:09–52:21

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Tone & Style

The episode is lively, humorous, irreverent, and emotionally resonant, characterized by the hosts’ warmth, mutual ribbing, and intellectual curiosity. There’s a balance of laughter and seriousness, especially around sensitive topics.

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Final Thoughts

The hosts urge everyone (especially those unfamiliar) to watch Paris is Burning and recognize the living legacy of ballroom in everyday culture. This episode is both a celebration and a critical examination—making it as fun as it is enlightening.

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Find the hosts online:

• Jewel Wicker: [@JewelWickerShow]
• Ryann Graham: [@GoodGuyRy]
• Black People Love Paramore: [@BPLPod] on all platforms, [e-mail]

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome to Black People Love Paramore, a podcast not about the band Paramore, but about the common and uncommon interests of black people. In order to help us feel a little bit more safe, I am your host, Sequoia. And per usual, we have our lovely co hosts in the.

[C]

In the. In a physical space.

[B]

In a physical space. We're actually in a stew.

[A]

I can't believe it. I'm so excited.

[B]

We have y' all gonna say yalls names.

[A]

My name is Jewel.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And I'm Ryan.

[B]

Okay. Damn. Palmira, our producer got Ryan's government name in here.

[C]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Don't scream. Just in case I need to hide. They're got crazy, right?

[B]

I was like, I don't know if I'll need to say it out loud, but you guys should go.

[C]

Ryan Graham. Yeah, don't look. Don't look special.

[B]

You got the corre expelling.

[C]

We got everything.

[B]

I don't know. Anyways, before we get into the episode, naturally, the housekeeping as usual rate us write us review 5 stars only because we are 5 star.

[A]

5 star.

[B]

Word to yo Gotti. Thank you very much. And if you are a five star yourself or a mocha grande.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You can get some merch from the store link down below. Thank you very much. I think we can really get into it because we ain't got a lot of time. Studios cost money. Unlike when we be at home on zoom and. And around and meaty in the background.

[C]

And I know my dog, baby, she be there, but like, we really got.

[B]

To get to it.

[A]

We are.

[C]

And it's pride month, so we have a very special topic.

[A]

Yeah, it is.

[B]

It's a good month. We have Paris is Burning, the iconic documentary. It is beautiful.

[A]

It's my favorite.

[B]

Is Jewel's favorite.

[C]

Is it really?

[A]

Yeah, no, it's really my favorite documentary, honestly.

[C]

Yeah. Top five for sure.

[A]

It's my favorite documentary.

[C]

I can't think of one. That's.

[A]

It's the documentary that I watched. You know, I studied film in college. It's the documentary that I watched in college. I was like, I want to do this. I thought you minored. I majored in journalism minor in film.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And so you do.

[C]

No, I thought you were journalism. That's what threw me off.

[B]

Yes. Right.

[A]

But I minored in film and I like, I remember taking a documentary studies class and seeing Paris and it's Burning and being like, oh, I would like to do that. That's really cool.

[C]

I think the way that they tell stories in it is so beautiful. Like. Like, I honestly just watched it again today and it is a very beautifully tragic, like, story. Like, the way they set everybody up and then, like, even the tension inside the community and then, like, how it. And I think overall, it is just a story of wanting to be accepted deeply.

[A]

So beautiful. And it is.

[C]

And then obviously they wouldn't have known this was happening. Kind of a spoiler alert. The Venus storyline. So Venus extravaganza. She is this very young trans woman. She just joined the house and she's like, yeah, I wanna go on to be a model. I wanna be a star. She wants to fall in love desperately. Obviously, a lot of trans women do sex work. And then she is murdered throughout the process of the documentary. So in she's talking, they give a story where she's like, oh, I just want to have a husband and, like, move away from New York, blah, blah, blah. And then, like, cut to her mother or the house of Extravagant. And then mother Angie and being like, yeah, she's gone. And, like, I had to explain to her family and it was just. It's so bittersweet.

[A]

It's really well done. It's really empathetic. It's really. I don't know.

[C]

Yeah. The way they do it is.

[A]

It's like a very. There are very few documentaries that I feel like, really capture a culture and, like, the essence of the thing. And I feel like when I was watching Paris is Burning, that's what it was. It was because I was in journalism. It was like, I saw, like, reporting and storytelling and, like, all of that in doc to where I was like, oh, there's a synergy here that I'm really interested in.

[C]

It is the perfect blend of film and journalism.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

Yeah, it really, really is.

[A]

That is why that was like, oh, like, I was never interested in being a writer. I was always interested in doing, like, broadcast stuff. And so that was the marriage of those two things.

[C]

I love this. Wow. Would you ever do a doc? I mean.

[A]

Well, this is my dream. My dream is to do a documentary.

[C]

Well.

[A]

And so I like, I see podcasts as audio, documentary, narrative, like, if it's a narrative podcast. And so I do already do stuff like that, but I really want to do, like, a visual. Yeah, that's my dream.

[C]

Wow. Paris is Still Burning, part two.

[A]

Paris is Still Burning, Part two.

[C]

Wait. Kind of fun.

[B]

Actually eats.

[A]

That's what I want to do.

[C]

Wow, I love that.

[A]

Yeah, it's really cool.

[C]

Also, this is the 35th. I learned that today too. It technically premiered in Toronto in September of 1990. And in the States, it premiered in 91, but like officially 1990. So this is the 35th year anniversary as well.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Also is so interesting to me. And what I loved about that documentary is I would have watched it in the 2010s between maybe 2012-2014 when I was in college. And I remember watching it and being like, this is relevant as hell. Like, it felt like it could have came out the day before, you know what I'm saying? Like, it didn't feel like it came out in the night. Like, it felt so relevant and it was so, like, so much of that culture was on TV at that moment. In other. In reality TV or in. You know what I mean, we went on to see pose. Right, right, right, right. Pose. Literally pulled storylines from the folks in like copy paste. Right, right. And so, like, to see something that held up that was that relevant culturally still, like, I just. It was incredible to me.

[C]

And then watching it again today. So, like, I also was noticing there's a segment where they talk about, like, the difference in, like, how ballroom. I'm trying to remember her name, but she was saying, like, in her day, like in the 60s, ballroom was basically big feathers, beads, blah, blah. And they said in the 90s, it had become about being fashion models. And then it's interesting, like, when you look at drag today, which is obviously a derivative of ballroom, and like, it's kind of watered down and whitewashed day. So, you know, we have that on TV now and it's very mainstream. But, like, even people in drag today also talk about how, like, old school drag was more of, like, about performing and like, your lip sync was the thing. It wasn't about gags, but now, so it's again that drama, or not drama, the pull of, like, new and old and like, how this is how we used to do drag, now this is how drag is. And it's just interesting to see that, like, there's that clear through line of, like, new generation coming in, changing things and the older generations being like, not.

[A]

How we do it. Back in my day.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Also, again, like, the overarching thing is like, very much a family story. And it's fun to see those familial ties stay through the whole.

[A]

And also, like, I thought that was the first documentary that I watched where it was like, I loved the. The storyline. And it's true, right? They pulled it from the culture.

[B]

But there's.

[A]

It's like, your family does not have to be blood that you can build this family and you could have this community that is like super tight knit, that is looking out for each other in a way that. You know what I mean? I really. I just loved that. I loved watching that be depicted.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, we have like jumped on it. Have you? I'm trying to. Have you. You've seen it?

[B]

Yes, I have seen it. I saw for the first time last year, 2024.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Or I was watching it for work. We were working on like a pride activation around it. And so I went into it, like, very, very blind. Just like. Okay, turned it on was like, this is truly one of the most artful, impactful things that I've turned on my television. It was great. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

It's just the way that, like, everyone is talking about, like, their hopes and aspirations. There's. And obviously that's the point of a documentary, is to humanize people who you may not have seen.

[A]

That doesn't mean all documentaries do it well, though.

[C]

That's true. And like, they. God, it's so masterfully done. And I think that anyone who has not watched it, you should watch it. I think you don't even have to be like, tangentially related to queer community or even. It's just such a. It's so important in terms of, like, understanding people and desires and like, what that looks like at all different ages. And then like, I don't know, I think even the way they handle, like, dreams of stardom and then you're on the kind of sunset of life and then like kind of reflecting being like, you know, I'm still happy with, like, I've. There's. I can't remember her name right now. One of the house mothers, she was like, no, I've lived like an extraordinary lifestyle. If I could do it all over again, I may not have got all the things I wanted, but, like, I have lived.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she's very famous.

[C]

I'm. I'm gonna.

[B]

It's not Octavia.

[C]

No. Octavia. I will get to, though. I love her too.

[A]

It's.

[C]

I'll look it up. Octavia is. Oh, wait, we have this thing here. It's Venus talking about what is her name? I'm gonna look it up. Keep going and I'll come back to it.

[A]

There. There's also like, I. I loved the way the documentary wasn't like, judgmental. Like, it is like, oh, we stealing because that's how we finna get.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Win this way. But it wasn't like, it didn't come across as like, oh, my God. Fever.

[B]

No, it's.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

It's almost like the documentary. The people who made the documentary did not paint anything one way or the other.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

It was very much like, here's these folks lives.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was like, you can. They were humanized in and of themselves. And it was just depicted on camera. It was like, oh.

[C]

I also think this is probably what made it easy for them to open up. I also love how open everybody was. Like, no matter where they were, they were just like, yeah, this is my experience. Or like, even when they were talking about stealing, like, they give the definition of mopping. And he's like, yeah, mopping is stealing, basically. And it's just very funny. And they were also young and they were so vulnerable. Vulnerable.

[A]

I was about to say. I feel like that's a testament to the documentary crew, though, because, like, sometimes you have to be with people for a while often. And some people are, like, natural, like, camera people. And so, like, they are very open naturally. But, like, usually to pull certain stuff like that out of people and to get people to be comfortable enough to, like, really tell their stories, like, authentically, you really got to spend some time with them. You can't just show up one day and be like, tell me what happened and expect to get like. You know what I mean?

[B]

They don't have to feel so safe.

[A]

Yeah. Like, they had to, really, in order for them to feel comfortable, really, truly, authentically being themselves.

[C]

I'm pretty sure this was. This was filmed over, like, three or four years.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I was about to say. It had to have been filmed over a while because of the ease and comfort that they had with the crew. Yeah.

[C]

And also the. Pepa Labeija was who I was thinking of, who said, love Pepala Baja. She's great. So Pepa Labeija Pepper. I say Peppa, but, like, she was one of the. She was very much like. She's one that. What is her name? God, the rapper. She's problematic rapper Gemini.

[A]

I cannot think of her problematic name.

[C]

Savvy Banks. She samples Pepa Baja being. I wanna. I have a dream of being a household product. Oh, no, that's Teyana Taylor.

[A]

Actually, that is Tiana Taylor.

[C]

It's Sianna Taylor. It's not. It sounds like Azealia bank song, but it is Tiana Taylor's work. That pussy.

[A]

See how you just dragged Azealia Banks? You said that problematic Gemini and then it was wrong.

[C]

Is it a drag? It's okay. They talk about reading in the. In Paris and Burning, and I feel like that was a good read.

[A]

That was. It was not untrue, you know?

[C]

It's not untrue.

[A]

I do love Work that Pussy.

[C]

Work that Pussy is a great song. And they sample Pepa labeija, like, talking. Talking about her dreams and aspirations of, like, she's like, I want to be a household product.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Something more. It's just so great. So, so good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My obsession with, like, ballroom culture, after I watched Paris is Burning, like, I was just like, I am into, like, I want to know more.

[C]

What category would you walk?

[A]

I don't know. Well, so, okay, so here's the funny part. You know, I'd be up late at night. You know, I'd be going to bed. I'm. I'd be in bed right after Sequoia. So I went to New York on different coasts. Yeah, on different coasts. But, like, I went to New York with one of my friends, and I was like, I can't wait. I'm going to, like, a ballroom. I'm. Baby. Y' all didn't tell me that don't.

[B]

Start till 2, 3am that's the thing.

[C]

Have you all been to one before?

[B]

No, but you.

[A]

I went to bed, and I remember.

[C]

Because my cousin here, he walks. He is in a house, and he was like, yeah, come to my show. It'll be. I got there at 8. They didn't start. And, like, he was like, later. So they started at 10. Mind you, this, like, I think I had my dog for, like, a week. And I was like, yeah, I'll just, like, get a dog sitter. It'll be fine. I want to tell you, we sat around for hours, and then it did not end.

[A]

I would have made some. I literally, I think we got there at, like, midnight.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And by 2:30, I said, I do have to.

[C]

What?

[A]

Y' all ain't even started? And my friend was like, oh, I'm sorry. Were you under the impression that this was gonna start before three?

[C]

But, you know, it makes sense because, like, when you think, you know gay.

[A]

People, I'm like, well, this one. My culture. No way. And now I'm definitely in my culture. I must go to bed. But I do admire it. I do. Yeah. Like, the duck walking is stunning to me. I don't think I have the knees.

[C]

Would you.

[B]

Oh, oh. Would you like to demonstrate?

[C]

Would you like to demonstrate?

[A]

If you want me on the floor, I'm happy to do so, but no, no.

[C]

Oh, you said happy. I Assumed you would. It was a troll, so you didn't answer my question.

[B]

What category would you.

[A]

No, what category do you think I would walk? I'm not sure, honestly.

[C]

So they. I mean, honestly, categories change. Right now your hair is pulled back. And I was gonna say little boy.

[A]

Put him.

[C]

No puberty. Ha. No puberty. Yes. Never seen a pube hair on a chinny chin chin.

[B]

And Rob. I'm done. I'm done.

[C]

She hates me. I know.

[A]

I don't even know what to say.

[C]

I'm kidding. I tried to. It wasn't a real ball. It was like in WeHo, and it was after some episode of Drag Race, and they were doing a walk or whatever, and I didn't hear the category, but I was like, this is my moment. I'm gonna go. I don't know. I was drunk. I'm telling you. And so I literally walk out thinking I'm giving. And all of a sudden I just hear bo. And I was like, oh, yo. They were like, boo. And I was like, but, you know, I mean, I walked.

[A]

Have you met him? I know you kept.

[C]

Yeah, I was like, whatever. I'm gonna head high. I'm just gonna walk through the thing, come back.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

And it was fine, though. Later, my friend was like. Cause this was, like, years later, I brought it up to my friend. He was like, yeah, it's because the category, like, the category was something that I was not doing. Like, perhaps I would have maybe given Butch Queen, but, like, it would have probably would have been, like, feminine realness, which I was literally wearing something like what I'm wearing now, which I would have never been in that category. But I just heard, yeah. And they were like, boo. And I'. I felt so ashamed.

[A]

You imagine.

[B]

Why would a man be there?

[C]

Yeah, why?

[B]

But why would a man be there, right?

[C]

Yeah, but he corrected me. He was like, yes, because you walked in the wrong category.

[A]

I will think about that. Because I put on some baggy pants one time and you done caught me. Prepubescent and a little boy.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

I can't believe it.

[B]

But, like, never mind. I forgot what I was gonna say.

[A]

I wanna know the truth. So. Okay. Okay.

[C]

I have to think of a category that.

[A]

Yeah, I really don't know what category I would walk in.

[C]

You also. You have great skin. So I feel like maybe there's that, like. Because they. You know, there's like, realness. But I'm like, I couldn't. So many of the categories that I am thinking of would require you to not be a woman.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, the whole point that defeats the purpose of real.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[C]

I would be annoyed if you kind of watched A Realist. Because I'm like, well.

[A]

Well, you are. Yeah.

[C]

In fact.

[A]

Yeah. That is not the point of this, culturally.

[C]

Yeah, right, Right.

[B]

But I know there's also feelings about drag kings. Oh. I know that some folks have feelings about it.

[C]

Like, the only times I've heard people talk about drag kings in a negative. Do you mean as in when CIS women. Okay.

[B]

Dressing as in drag as men.

[C]

Got it. Because I didn't know. Because sometimes people do have issues with CIS women doing drag as women, because that also is a thing.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And people are kind of like, well, that's kind of.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, yes. Yes.

[C]

Especially when they're, like, heterosexual, because it's like, well, girl, what are you doing?

[B]

Sure.

[C]

But I haven't heard people be angry at jazz drag. Drag kings.

[B]

You might be right. I might have made that up.

[A]

No, but I get that.

[C]

Sorry. In this world, someone's mad about it.

[A]

Somebody is upset about something at all times. Yeah, I. I don't know. I. I've all. Yeah, I did. I had a very deep obsession with ballroom, but I also was like, let me keep it cute, because it's not my culture. But I definitely was, like, very into it for it was. It was a. Was it My House? What was on hbo?

[C]

Legendary.

[A]

No, there was. It wasn't legendary. It was legendary.

[C]

Was a show.

[A]

It was a. Yeah, but there was a different one. I think it was called My House.

[C]

I don't remember that.

[A]

I was. And it was like, maybe late 2010s, like 2017, 2016.

[C]

So I was in Missouri at this time.

[A]

Okay, fair enough.

[C]

So I was like, in.

[A]

And it was only, like you said, I was not finna put that on my camera. Yeah. So, like. But it was only, like, one season. It was quick and they. And it didn't last long. But I remember being so excited because I had watched Paris is Burning, but it was in the 90s. But this was something that was like, present day. And it was really interesting to see what ballroom culture. Which is why I went. Because there was a. There was somebody. I think her name was, like, Tati. I don't remember her full name, but she was in the show. And the reason I wanted to go to the show when I went to New York was because she was supposed to be walking in it. And I was, like, so obsessed with her. I thought she was fabulous. Yeah, that's. Yeah. I was so into it.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[C]

And it's so interesting, like, looking back at, like, like, the mothers and fathers in Paris is burning. Like, and then for them to have gone on and some of them to have made quite big names for themselves, it's interesting to see how, like, today, obviously, queerness in general is so much more accepted that, like, that Tati, for instance, had the chance to, like, be performing and kind of, like, be a bigger star than, like, they were all so underground.

[A]

And it just makes me wonder. Cause, like, me and my straight ass would not have known, you know what I mean, If I had been in New York, I wouldn't have been like, let me go find Tati. Exactly.

[C]

Exactly. But I'm like, I just wonder how many are a. I mean, it's just like, this was also, like, peak AIDS epidemic. So, like, quite a few of these people tragically were lost.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So, like, I'm just wondering how many these people rightfully should have been stars. You know what I mean?

[A]

Like, and just because I feel like many.

[C]

Yeah, I feel like many sad to think, damn, like, they're shine. They obviously shine bright on their own in any way, but, like, so many people are trying to dim them. And I'm like, they deserved, I think.

[A]

Did you, like, pose?

[C]

I did. Sorry. I liked it.

[A]

Wait, did you, like, pose?

[B]

I did not watch pose.

[A]

Okay, fair enough.

[C]

Season one of Pose is very good.

[A]

It's good. It's good.

[C]

It starts.

[B]

I think you told me about that.

[A]

We do kind of start to.

[C]

Cause, you know, in true. Ryan Murphy.

[A]

I didn't want to say it. I didn't want to drag Ryan Murphy on this day.

[C]

Hey. But the thing about Ryan Murphy, great at creating a world. He should be a developer.

[A]

The first season is so good. And it just. It's like all of the things that I loved about Paris is Burning but, like, fictionalized and really, like, expounded on and dragged out and just. Yeah, he created this world.

[C]

It was beautiful.

[A]

That was fantastic.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So good. Yeah.

[C]

Like, I think it, like, it, like. Cause obviously Paris is Burning is a glimpse and you're getting like they're answering questions that felt like obviously a dramatized version. So you saw, like, some of the stuff they might not say on camera or like, if they were referencing sex work, you get to see like, oh, this is really what that. I mean, really is scripted tv. But like, oh, shit, that's what that was like.

[A]

Exactly. But. But even the Dorian Corey storyline that they. I watched it and I said, wait.

[C]

A damn I said, I know that.

[B]

It's a real story.

[C]

It's a real person.

[A]

That lady really had dead body in her house. I know. Isn't that crazy that.

[C]

So that's like Venus was left underneath. God, this. I don't have to get sad. But yeah, they found her like days later. Like John essentially strangled her to death and left her. I know four things. She was like 22, a baby.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But yeah, I don't know.

[B]

My God.

[C]

Yeah, I was going somewhere.

[A]

But it was something about that story of like there was a dead person mummified in her house. Do you remember not.

[C]

No. Not being.

[A]

Not Venus, but in her house. And it was just like, it made. It just made me so curious about like what happened and why maybe, you know what I mean, like when she attacked or like what had happened to where somebody is dead in your house and mummified. And you hid it. She hid it for a long time and it wasn't until she died and they went to clean out her pace.

[B]

That they found a mummy.

[A]

That's a damn mummy. Yes.

[C]

Why would you do that?

[A]

Yes, yes. And like essentially what they like speculate is that like, you know, she had been attacked or, you know, and she just didn't believe that people would have believed her.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So she just, she defended herself, killed that person, hid the body and that she didn't think that people would believe her.

[B]

Okay, Right, right.

[A]

And likely like lied. So she, she mummified now, but the mummy, she mummified the body, put it in her chest and went the on with her life.

[B]

Like, I wonder, like, how did she know I wouldn't have tried? Because Gula likes.

[A]

So how did like. But resourceful, you know what I mean?

[B]

Encyclopediaed.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, she had to have had help, which means she had.

[C]

Sorry, I'm just thinking of the now I'm thinking of the 90s having to pick up an encyclopedia and you're like.

[B]

Mommy, quickly, as quick, fast as possible.

[A]

But I'm like, she had to have had friends who helped her. And that's to me again, that's like ten toes down. Loyal.

[B]

No friendship.

[A]

Because like, who would you mummify a body with? You. You know what I mean?

[C]

Like, I love you all mummified, but I don't know that I would.

[A]

I'm not going. Yeah, I said now. Ryan, don't call.

[B]

Oh, just burn it.

[A]

What if we called you and told you we need you to help with a body, you would come and burn the body.

[B]

Oh, I mean, if it was if it was rightful.

[C]

I guess everybody's a hero in their own story. It's always rightful. Everyone's rightful in their home.

[B]

I don't know if it will make it to mine. I don't know if it would be correct in mine, but, yes, you guys, can we talk about phrases slash language you wish you could take back from the whites? Flash the straights.

[C]

Slash the straights.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because that's the thing. Because when I saw the list, I said, I don't think it's mine to take back.

[C]

Oh, yeah, let's look at the.

[A]

Well, I said, I think it's not me. I think it's Ryan. Yeah, it's Ryan.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

Oh, me.

[C]

Okay, wait, you know what?

[B]

So the phrases are. I have you. Do you want me to tell you the phrases or do you want to start.

[C]

I have a note and then we can go through the phrases. Go for it. So I do think that specifically black women. I think that like so many gay black men, we are just. You are our rocks. And so I think a lot of this is gonna overlap naturally. So I think you two can say you want to take some music.

[B]

You don't have to give me a pass shot.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

I'm all right. Thank you.

[C]

All right, well, great. Fine. Okay.

[B]

All right. We got some first. So Shade. Work with an E. Yeah.

[C]

Work needs to be taken back. And that specifically, you just said you.

[B]

Like Work this pussy.

[C]

Yeah, I do like that song, but I like that. I don't want to share that with y'.

[A]

All.

[C]

I want that for me.

[A]

Tiana.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's a straight lady bisexual.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I said. That is not a straight lady.

[C]

Bisexuals. No, no, no. Sorry. Not bisexuals in general.

[A]

The Pride episode is about to get canceled.

[C]

More so meant. I do think famous by people who do not publicly. And I get. It's your business. You don't have to. I just always have feelings around you being quotations by. But then there's no. I'm like. I guess like, it feels very like, are you. Which. But I don't know that Tiana Taylor. Paul's making.

[A]

That's mad at me. No, I don't. I get what you mean. I don't think Teyana Taylor. I don't think anybody questions that. That lady be correct.

[C]

That's how I feel about it. I'm like, she as one. I'm like. I don't think I would ever question or feel that way. But there are celebrities where I'm.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I understand that you claim to be Bi. And I do not want to take that away from you. Bi erasure is a real thing, and I'm not trying to do that, but I'm just like, yeah, if all you date is men and. Or women, as respectfully or respectively, it always makes me go like, okay. I don't know. I.

[B]

As a queer person, I feel like male queer. Queerbaiting is, like, definitely a thing right now.

[A]

Literally thinking, like, it's very popular.

[C]

There are a couple of men where.

[B]

I'm like, I think of. I will like the Harry style. I knew you was gonna say hero.

[A]

I knew you was gonna say hero.

[B]

Bad bunny. Yeah. I think I'm, you know, like, all right. I'm like, I don't really know. You know, I don't know how I would feel about this. Right?

[C]

And even. I would. Even to me, even, like, the Tyler Crater falls in that, where I'm like, sure, interesting. But I'm like. Cause I'm like, I know you rap about this, but, like, I don't know that he's ever been publicly with a man.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know.

[C]

And again, I get. It's one of those things where, like.

[A]

It'S not gonna say Jerry Carmichael, but I'm gon.

[B]

Why am I calling him Jared?

[A]

Not Jared? I don't know why I talked a minute.

[C]

That's fair. But, like, no, because you rejected him. Again, I say this. If you have your. You have the right to your privacy. I just always feel like it's interesting to be publicly bi for representation, but then you don't show it either way.

[A]

Is it. I'm not. I can't say. But is it more so that it's frustrating that those people get more attention than folks who are, like, very much culturally a part of a community? Is that what it is?

[C]

I think for me, sometimes it's like. Cause it's almost like you get the badge of being queer and all the benefits of that, but you can take that off at any moment. And also, oftentimes those men are much more masculine presenting. And I also have issues with the reason I don't like straight men playing gay characters when the point of their character is love, is that you are perpetuating the idea that only masculine queer men. Men deserve love. So it irks me because no matter what the actor does as a straight person, you are always going to present queerness with masculinity. You just are like, no matter how great of an actor are, it's just going to be more masculine. And that's fine because masculine gay men exist.

[A]

But if.

[C]

If that is all we ever see, it makes feminine. I don't know, it just like it. It makes that more desirable.

[A]

I see what you mean. Yeah.

[C]

So same thing with like bi men. I'm like, I get it. And like, sure. But it just irksome because I'm like, that's right. You get to take this badge off at any moment.

[A]

But either way, we are keeping work this though.

[C]

We are.

[A]

Yeah, you keep it.

[B]

Work this.

[C]

So sorry. Tiana is taking pussy specifically.

[B]

Is. Is kept.

[A]

Okay, work out. Work this pussy in.

[B]

Okay, now this one is one I did not know was queer specifically. Is it chop?

[C]

Yeah, that's a crumble. It's a chop.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

It is.

[B]

So I bought.

[C]

It's a Kent or it's a chop.

[B]

It's a chop. Wow. I did not know that. Okay.

[C]

And so only because I feel like I think that one's fun. Cause like sometimes you do got a chop. You need a. It's a chop.

[B]

The way that the kids are using it on the Internet now is like.

[A]

Like that's what, that's why it took me a second to remember different.

[B]

Yeah, it's like a different context. It's like they're saying that you're ugly.

[C]

What?

[B]

Like, like, yeah, she's. She's chopped.

[C]

And see, this is so. Nevermind, take them all away.

[B]

You know, look at what happens to bastardization of it.

[C]

No, it is literally like. It's like when I walked that category and I was walking the wrong one. It's a chop, it's a chop.

[B]

It's a chop.

[C]

The wrong thing. Yeah, it's a chop.

[A]

You could have been incredible. And also you are in the wrong category.

[C]

Wrong category.

[B]

So it's a chop.

[C]

Incorrect.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, clock it.

[C]

So clock it. Irks me because like I now people use it as like, like, so I do this, but people do this. And I'm like this. I've seen people do that. And I'm like, what the is that? And I've always thought I saw it.

[A]

I saw a tick tock that was like, this is wrong. This is wrong.

[B]

Yeah. What is this? This don't even feel good, right?

[C]

It feels like you're going out of your.

[B]

Yeah, it's clock it.

[C]

And also to me, people are arguing about clock it. To me it's like, oh, I hear you. Clock it is not like, like always shady. It's just like o. Clock it.

[B]

Like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

You pick that up. But people are now being like, Clock that. And I'm like, it's not always clock that.

[B]

Te.

[C]

It's so.

[B]

It just feels like the whitening of lots of things.

[C]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

That Te.

[C]

I think it's white people.

[B]

How do we get to that tea? Right. People are problematic, I guess.

[C]

The boots house down, mama. Clock that tea.

[B]

And now it's. It was used ironically at first. I feel like people were adding all the extra stuff on it to try to be funny. And now it is legitimately the thing that people. Yes. Like, now they're, like, saying it earnestly.

[A]

I'm Emily Fleming.

[C]

I'm Jordan Morris. And I'm Matt Lieb. We are real comedy writers, real friends, and real cheapskates. On every episode of our podcast, free with ads, we ask, why pay for expensive streaming services when you can get free movies from apps with weird names? Each week, we review the freest movies.

[B]

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Week as we take a deep dive into the Internet's bargain bin.

[C]

Every Tuesday on MaximumFun.org or your favorite.

[B]

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Robert Shaw in Jaws and they're trying to figure out how to get rid of the ghoulies, and he scratches his nails and goes, I'll get you ghoulie.

[C]

He's just standing above the toilet with a. Our movie.

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New episodes every Saturday. Find [e-mail].

[A]

Do you have thoughts about, like, the Housewives and the way in which, like, I think a lot about how, like, much I loved, like, even Real Housewives of Atlanta, but how homophobic they could be often while also utilizing so much of, like, culture right here.

[C]

And Lawrence is right here and y' all believe and, like, they would be so mean.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. But, like, still in every lingo. Every, like, you know what I mean? And it just was so upsetting to me. Like, I'm like, this is literally directly pulling from culture. Culture.

[C]

And you come up off of this, like, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're literally benefiting, like, You're. A lot of the phrases and a lot of the, like, memes and stuff like that are derived from this culture associated with Nene. And you are actively. And you are actively being homophobic. And that annoys.

[C]

No, I agree. It's. It's sad. And like, I think it's. Again, I think that goes into, like, how sometimes. I mean, I guess I feel like I'm dancing on eggshells to say this, but sometimes black women specifically can carry that a lot where they don't. That they. That blindness. That blind spot of like, I don't understand how me being homophobic is directly impacting my friends who are with me all the time. Like, the. Was it Karisha who also was very homophobic? And then like. But it's like, what, girl? I think same thing. I think black women sometimes, not all, but obviously some black women can have a blindness when it. And I think it's because. Because in their hearts, they're like, oh, my best friends. It's like being. I'm not racist. I have a black friend. Same energy, just with homophobia.

[A]

I think also if it's like. Cause we talk about how much of, like, queer culture is inspired by black women and, like, vice versa, and it feels until it doesn't kind of thing.

[C]

Yeah, I think.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Super real.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I think that's why I have, like, complicated feelings around it. Cause I'm like, obviously I was not in ballroom in the 80s and 90s as a baby. So, like, I don't know. But I have to believe that some of these things, because in ballroom, you are emulating femininity in a lot of ways. And so I think you kind of naturally are leaning into that. And so you pick some of those things up from your mom, your cousins, your sisters. So I think it's kind of cyclical.

[A]

I think it becomes its own thing, and then it can't come. Yeah, certainly.

[C]

Certainly. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, if you derive it enough that it's now a unique culture, then it is inspired by. But it is also like. Do you know what I'm trying to say?

[C]

Yeah, it's distinct.

[A]

It is inspired by. It is still. Also distinct. Yeah. And I still think, like, you have to be respectful of. Certainly you can, like, think you can acknowledge the inspiration, and you should acknowledge the inspiration while also being respectful of the, like, culture that is, like, derived.

[C]

No, you're right.

[B]

Right. I think it gets, like, unsafe when black women get into the space of demanding an acknowledgement for the culture. Then it gets into TERF category. Terf. Like, terfy.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[C]

Where, like, anti Trans. Terfy. Gotcha.

[B]

Where it starts to get into.

[C]

What does TERF stand for again? I don't think I actually know.

[B]

Trans Exclusionary radical feminist show. Didn't know where. It's like, I am the blueprint. I am the one. I am what you're trying to emulate. You could never be me. You want to be me. You're trying to be me. And I think that's where my disconnect with it comes, because I'm like, this is a slippery slope. I hear what you're saying, and I understand wanting the acknowledgment that there is some inspiration here. And also, you start getting very, like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Very scary. Really quick.

[C]

And I don't think it clicked my brain until you literally just said that. That I don't know this. That anyone's trying to be. You're not. I'm not trying to be you. I'm trying to be me. Me.

[B]

That's it.

[C]

And I think that is the thing. And it's that, like, maybe there are things about you that I like or that I connect with. And so that is what I'm trying to do. But at the end of the day, I'm not trying to be you. I am trying to be me.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And I think that's where people don't understand.

[B]

And I think it comes from just, like, women being oppressed and not being, like, the dominant group. And so it's like, oh, here's people that seem like they want to be me. I'm really going to lean into that. You know, it's like, it's not. It's not. That's not what's happening. Exactly.

[A]

That was one of my favorite things about pose. And they do it in Paris is Burning Too. But, like, showing how, like, so much of the categories came from a desire to be safe.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And to, like. You know what I mean? Like, why did it matter so much that, like, this realness idea of realness and all this stuff. It was actually because you didn't want to be clocked so that you. You know what I'm saying? Like, it was all of these things. It was safety.

[C]

Like, yeah. They gamified it. But, like, in reality, it was literally like all the. The categories or a lot of the categories were about, wow, you are able to exist in the real world without.

[A]

Being able to tell that you were a tr. Yeah, exactly. And that was, to me, like, what a What a really interesting way to like. Yeah. Like gamify something that is really traumatic and based on like a fear and a day in danger.

[C]

But to be fair, I think. I think black and brown people have such a good track record.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

No track record of turning pain into something very beautiful. Because you're right. It's coming out of fear. It's coming out of a lack of security. And it's like, okay, but let's find something really positive and let's make this space where you can for one night, not to quote sinners, a night we was free.

[B]

I said like a slave. I didn't hear. I actually don't know how we arrived here.

[A]

We're getting to problematic territory as we see to.

[B]

Do you know I.

[C]

Do you know me? I. Yeah, I just be talking.

[B]

So I'm going list some of the categories so that people understand what we're talking about.

[C]

Tell me, would you walk in it?

[B]

We Vogue. I don't think. I don't think that I'm equipped to walk in any.

[A]

That's why I don't know what I want.

[B]

The girl that I am.

[A]

You know what I mean? I can't give nothing.

[B]

I don't have this stage presence. I don't have it well enough, period. It doesn't. I really don't.

[A]

I'm getting.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

The lowest possible.

[B]

I promise you they're going to be like, what the was that?

[C]

That?

[B]

Get her out of here.

[A]

You're like, what would you walk on a.

[C]

Like, home.

[B]

And I will walk home. I'll see myself out.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. I will walk home.

[C]

Well, but you walk. The category is bed. Bed by night.

[B]

I'm really good at that. I would eat. I would eat that down with my bonnet and my little dookie braids that y' all make fun of.

[A]

Sequoia.

[B]

And my house coat.

[A]

She took her scarf off this morning and she said, don't look. You've already been. You've already shamed me.

[C]

I've seen.

[B]

Yeah, you guys been really mean about it. So then I don't.

[C]

We were mean about your bow. I'm only mean about your bowel where braids may have been for a minute.

[B]

And they've all. They've always been in for a minute, Ryan. Okay.

[A]

And these hats.

[B]

They've never taken them out of my head.

[A]

That's. That's the stage that they were in today.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I still said sorry. Okay, Go on, read Vogue.

[C]

I. Yeah, that's. I love that. That's fun.

[B]

We have Vogue. We have Vogue. Virgin.

[C]

Vogue Virgin.

[B]

New way. Old way.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Corporate. Uhhuh. School girl boy.

[C]

Yeah. So, like, it's like, you're. You're going to school, you're reading books. It's. I don't know. Let me try. I'm being Billy. I'm being Billy.

[B]

Are as one does face realness. Commentator versus commentator. Oh, Commentator versus commentator.

[C]

I don't know what that means.

[B]

Yeah, me neither.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Sex siren. Body Runway and Runway version.

[A]

Sex siren.

[C]

Oh, so sex siren. Oh, my gosh. That is so. That's the category. My cousin actually walks in his house. He. Because he's, like, just very ripped. And so I was unprepared for that.

[B]

So, like, so you had to see your cousin as a correct sex siren.

[C]

And it was so, like, he was.

[B]

Something I don't want to do.

[C]

They were. He was, like, military at first, and I was like, oh, whatever. And then, like, rip away pants, and I was like, okay, all right. And, like, I mean, like, the tiniest little speedo, and I'm like, there's. I did not need to know. Like, it was a lot. And then, like, basically assless. So. Yeah. And then, like, you have to kind of like, it's very magic, Mikey, if you're doing sex iron as a man.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

That and then sex Sirens as a woman is. Think like, what? Ace of Spades.

[B]

There is sex siren as a woman.

[C]

Both. Yeah. What is that? Diamonds. Diamonds. Diamonds. Diamonds. Dancing strip club. I'm thinking of a strip club.

[A]

Oh, King of Diamonds.

[B]

King of Diamonds.

[C]

It's very that. Like you.

[B]

Ace of Spades.

[C]

Ace of Spades is an alcohol champagne.

[A]

It is. I know that.

[B]

Ace of Diamonds, I think, was a strip club in LA before it closed.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[B]

If I'm not mistaken.

[C]

Either way. Yeah, either way. Yes. It is very much like you are performing in selling sex. I don't think I could walk in that. I think I would try, and they would be like, hey, baby, hang out.

[B]

What would you try for?

[C]

I certainly I would do Runway because I think I would have a pretty good Runway walk. I would like to do Vogue. But then I've seen people who are really good at Vogue.

[B]

Yeah. What about Vogue Virgin?

[C]

Vogue Virgin.

[B]

I think I'll feel like that feels like something you could do.

[C]

And they would be, like, fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're competitive too, right? You're so competitive.

[C]

Well, and it's fun. Like, also, Paris is burning kind of like, talks about how voguing is, like, it's a physical way to throw shade. Cause, like, so you Basically, like, a.

[A]

Lot of times when you're doing this.

[C]

Stuff, it's like you're looking at a mirror, which I'm like. I was like, did they take this from akas? Which is kind of funny. I don't know, because, you know, aks.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

No, that's an ivy. But they also do the mirror.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

AKA.

[B]

They do. They do.

[C]

Sorry. Oh, my God. AKAs. Don't. Don't come for me, right? I was doing the symbols. You're not naked, are you?

[A]

No.

[C]

Oh, okay. Well, all right. Are you a Delta? Did I do that?

[A]

You better. You're gonna get custody. I know.

[B]

I was like, please don't.

[A]

You did one, and then let's go. You finna come for the damn.

[B]

Ryan actually loves to do this. He will do this in general. I love going to parties with other nonprofit organizations.

[C]

I'll start. I'll go for it.

[B]

I want you to.

[C]

I do them all.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

Sorry. But yes. So when you're doing Vogue, they'll hold the mirrors up, and then, like, they'll, like, beat their face, and then they'll hold it to you, being like, baby, you need one.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's so fun.

[A]

It's so fun. But it's so. It's so creative, and it's so artsy.

[B]

I just really love things way deeper than you think.

[C]

Like, obviously, like, Vogue got commercialized by Madonna.

[A]

Yada, yada, yada.

[C]

Right? Yada. But I'm like. But, like, there's so much more to it. And then again, they're like, yes. Like, it's called. It's called voguing. Not only because of, like, the model modeling of it all, but it's just, like, we couldn't see ourselves there, so we had to put ourselves there. And there's something so powerful about.

[A]

That's what I'm saying about, like, the categories. And, like, it's just very. I love it.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know any of the virgin categories. I would do okay. Innocent.

[B]

You feel like you do a virgin caliber. Innocent. Naturally. Now, have. Did white people change? Dip to death drop?

[C]

Yes. So, like. And I would say I was a. I was a. I did not know this. I learned this later because I remember. Remember RuPaul, Drag Race. They call them death drops.

[A]

They call them death drops.

[C]

That is what white people call it. And, like, sorry, do not come for me. Drag Race was my kind of first experience at the ballroom. Cause that was that predated pose, and I hadn't watched Paris of the Burning yet. I later learned there was like a queen who came on and she was like, it's called a dip. Don't throw. And I was like, oh. And she was like a black queen, obviously.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Oh, okay. And then since then I have seen Paris is Burning in that. So yes, the proper way is like, oh, it's a dip. But yeah, you know, white people call it Death drop.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That's how you know it's like, that's how you. That's a telltale sign.

[B]

That's how you know where you're at.

[C]

Uh, not invited to the. The Queer Cookout.

[B]

The Queer Cookout. Okay.

[C]

Not invited to DC Pride, which is.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

The Pride.

[C]

Well, no, but there's controversy this year because there's like this. There's this pride party in D.C. where they said there's a poster that says fit and attract. Yes. Fit and attractive only. And. And what is such. So gay TikTok is kind of going around like, what does that mean?

[B]

Because fit and attractive only because.

[C]

Also, what does that mean? Who is at the door is being like, where's the scale? Where does.

[B]

Let me tell you something, they do that to women all the time though. Oh, no, clubs do that to women, especially in la.

[C]

But they don't, do they? Specifically.

[B]

Sorry, there's no like something on the door that says. But it's implying imp. Lighter than a paper bag and bust down weave thin. Thin. And you're not getting in. So now, now you're saying in D.C. pride, they put it on.

[C]

Yeah, they're like. They say, spelled it out, baby. You know what?

[B]

I think I would prefer that because at least let me know where I'm gonna be turned away.

[A]

So I still don't know if you fit to put the picture of fit in the track. What's your definition?

[B]

I'm not really risky. I will assume I don't.

[C]

That's crazy.

[A]

Sequoia said it's actually okay.

[B]

It's not 100% I'm not coming.

[C]

Honestly, more I also don't. If that is the energy in that.

[B]

Room, I don't want to go.

[C]

I'm sure it sucks.

[A]

It sucks.

[C]

Everyone in, there's going to be.

[A]

And nobody's fun. Nobody has a sense of hum. Nobody's fucking fun. Everybody is feeling themselves a little too much.

[C]

I also should add, it is a sex party.

[A]

Brian.

[B]

Certainly.

[A]

Leaving that out is nuts. Is it? Yeah, kinda. Oh, oh, that doesn't make it better. No, no, no, it doesn't. No, no, no, it doesn't make it better. But it adds a context to where I'm like, oh, they trying to get busy. That's why they.

[C]

Right. And that's what. When you were saying.

[A]

They said my type only.

[C]

Yeah. When you said, no one's gonna be fun, I'm like, oh, well, you said, oh, that's not.

[A]

They're not in there telling jokes. I'm sorry. I think you think they're in there tell dancing.

[B]

That's not the type of part. They're not doing that.

[C]

You're right. Fair.

[A]

And I never would have assumed. So I am glad that you clarified that context.

[C]

It gives context. But, yeah, I did not realize that. Like, I mean, I guess I knew clubs excluded people like that, but that makes me sad that that is like the experience.

[A]

It's a thing.

[B]

I agree. That is that. Can you tell me what corporate is? I feel like maybe I could do that one. I hear that I'm corporate.

[C]

So again, tell me in Paris is Burning. It's very like, think. I think you're corporate people.

[B]

People do tell me that people are.

[C]

Like, you don't think she's corporate.

[B]

People. Like, you're starting.

[A]

Let's hear the definition before I respond to that.

[B]

I think I appear corporate. I am not. I think appear corporate.

[A]

Oh, I don't feel like you appear corporate.

[C]

I don't think you're pure corporate.

[B]

Oh, my God. That's nice.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

No, I don't. You don't give me corporate vibes.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

I think it's like business casual with a club. That's what. That's what they mean by corporate category.

[B]

The other day, my co host on the other show was like, I mean, you are wearing suits. Pants, mind you. I had on, like, they were like.

[C]

Not in stripe pants.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Not jeans.

[A]

When y' all were in. Were you. When y' all were in college was business casualty Club, the attire. Okay.

[B]

I think I was just passed because.

[A]

When I talk to, like, my boyfriend about it, he's always like, that's not a real thing, Jalma. Yes, it is. Like, people go to the club and business. You know, he went in club, so he don't know what they was. He don't. He don't. He didn't. He wasn't at. And to be fair, I wasn't either, but I had a little more proximity to like.

[B]

I'm sure you spent a little bit.

[A]

I was at the house with them before they left to go out to the club. And I saw what they had on. Very rarely.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Very rarely. No, no, no. You just I'm just. I was just very deeply introverted.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I did go out in college a lot.

[C]

Oh yeah.

[A]

I went out a few times. I was ready to go home every time. But I did go out.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And we were wearing business casual.

[B]

But to be fair, I was going out in D.C. where business casual was the play of the land.

[A]

Anyway. Yeah. That wasn't a trend for dc.

[B]

That was d. It was after happy hour. It was after work. You went to the club?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, yeah. You're right. The time I've been to D.C. everyone is just in suits and it makes.

[B]

Me all the time.

[C]

I thought it was. It looks like a set. It doesn't look real.

[B]

No, it's real.

[C]

It's very, very.

[A]

And also, it does give boring. Cuz I don't want to talk to you.

[B]

So that tells me like, why would I want to go to that sex party in D.C. like, so niggas can be in.

[C]

Maybe you run into a senator.

[A]

Facts.

[B]

Now wait a second. Absolutely. I read this book where the senator would throw the wildest sex part parties. It was called O Sinners. It was like. It was. Oh, is it called O Sinners? I can't remember. It might have been called something else. It was by Akwaeke.

[A]

Nuh.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I'm pretty sure.

[C]

I don't know who's a kwaeke.

[A]

They're. They're an author that I adore, but they books be unfamiliar.

[B]

The book was fucking crazy. But the senator would throw wild sex parties. Now they're very akin to Diddy. I must read extremely akin to Diddy.

[C]

My point of reference for books like this is Zayn. I brought this up before.

[B]

No, we're talking. We're way past Zayn.

[A]

You were so determined to. To make us to figure out what the vibe of Zayn was. Because every time we talk about something.

[B]

You'Re like girls in middle school reading it.

[C]

It always made me scared.

[B]

Middle school is insane.

[A]

Were they not reading Zayn at your middle school?

[B]

I don't. I mean, I went to a white.

[A]

School, so I was not reading Zayn. But they, my friends were absolutely reading Zayn. In middle school.

[B]

In middle school.

[C]

It was scary. I knew they were sex books.

[A]

How else was I going to know what Zayn was about if I was, you know, I don't know how I know because my friends were.

[B]

I just read. So I think I read some of it. I was like, okay, how did you get one? Probably library.

[C]

They had them in the library.

[A]

Where else would you gonna give.

[C]

I don't I thought they were like porn. I thought. I'm thinking like Playboy. That is how they.

[B]

They're not Playboy. I know it's a novel.

[C]

Literally Playboy. But I thought it'll be like.

[B]

It is porn.

[C]

That's why I'm surprised.

[B]

In the library.

[C]

You can't go rent a Playboy in the library. Never mind. That's different. Cuz they would probably be disgusting.

[B]

It's much.

[C]

Could you imagine?

[B]

We never got through all the phrase.

[C]

Sorry. Keep going. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. We have five minutes.

[B]

We have iconic.

[C]

I don't know that I equate that. Iconic slash legendary. Legendary. I feel feels specifically queer. And the iconic does not.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[B]

We have yass.

[C]

I hate that in general. So take it all.

[B]

That feels white.

[C]

It does.

[B]

I don't think that can go. No. I don't think any black people ever said yes.

[C]

Not unironic.

[B]

Personally. Mother. Okay. I think we should have a conversation about mother.

[C]

So after watching Paris is Burning, the way they describe mother. It is very different. We get mother should be used. It is used too often.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

I feel like there are people who are literally. I would say Beyonce. I would give mother.

[B]

Mariah Carey.

[C]

Gaga. Mother. Mariah Carey.

[B]

I would give mother.

[C]

I think you have to have children to be a mother. And I think that there are quite a few people who don't love Ariana Grande down doesn't have children.

[B]

And everybody's mother now.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Dua lipa, mother insane.

[B]

You know like people say that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you go on do lea stay on a boat.

[C]

She ain't never had a baby.

[B]

Yeah. I remember Jackie aa had to tell people to not they were calling her mother, like in that. In that type. Not in like a. Oh, you're like a mom. I know. But they were like doing. And she was like, I don't like that.

[C]

I. She's correct. Yeah. Also not mother.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. Yeah. Jackie wouldn't be mother. I certainly. I agree with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Don't you look at me like that.

[A]

I'm g to say nothing. We don't know.

[B]

And then wait, there's oh, oh, tens across the. The board. I feel like Beyonce recently popularized this and that's why it's on this list.

[C]

Tens, tens, tens across the board. I would say she used it accurately. She was using it with direct reference to where it is from and so correct. I do think people like h this avocado toast tends across the board. Wrong.

[A]

Don't say it again.

[C]

Someone.

[A]

I can assure you that someone somewhere that's their caption is eating avocado toast. Dang tins across the board for sure.

[B]

If you are a household parent, what would your house name be? Oh, and why.

[C]

So a lot of them named their houses specifically after, like, fashion brands. Because again, again, a lot of it.

[A]

Was like putting yourself.

[B]

Putting yourself in a place where you were not welcome. Yeah.

[C]

Where would I. The house. H A U s. H a U s The house of. I don't know why Moschino is coming up. I'm gonna say Moschino because I love the brand Moschino. It's a. It's like a. They're very quirky, campy brand. And I love camp. I think. Like, do you not like you. I didn't like your face.

[A]

I'm just listening.

[C]

I am Moschino.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That sounds Aryan.

[A]

If I.

[B]

Okay. What would you say?

[C]

I need to think of another one.

[A]

I have no idea.

[C]

No, give it. Give us a house.

[A]

Cause I'm not. I don't know. Cause, you know, I don't really know nothing about fashion either.

[C]

That's okay.

[B]

Joyfully. I don't House the Fashion Nova.

[C]

House the Fashion Nova.

[B]

I like it.

[A]

House Du Sheen.

[C]

House.

[A]

Dash. House. Dashing house to Nikolau.

[C]

I like. No, I love it, actually. That.

[A]

Accessible.

[B]

Accessible. I love that her house is free. Yeah.

[C]

Accepting her house is welcome. Doors open.

[A]

I done been called a prepubescent boy. I done been called an accessible. I will not be back on this show if I can tell you that for absolute.

[B]

You're a co host, babe.

[C]

You won't catch it. Love you Google fashion brand, right?

[B]

I really think that's it. Do y' all have any other Fashion.

[A]

Nova being the first thing to come.

[B]

Up with Fashion brand. Fashion Nova was the first thing that came up when you googled fashion brand brands.

[A]

It's probably from his searches.

[C]

I don't be searching.

[B]

You'll be on Fashion Nova.

[C]

You have seen my closet. Have you ever. I. Sorry. I'm not going to lie.

[B]

Ryan is a depop. Thrifting. Truly.

[C]

Yes. I'm like, most of my things are secondhand. Yeah. Very, very. That so, like.

[B]

And the. The closet is way too extensive.

[C]

That's.

[B]

You have.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You have multiple the amounts of clothes that Ryan owns.

[A]

It's. I have never. I want for the record, I've never seen Ryan's closets. I just know that they exist because every time I see. I could give him. And there are two random. I could give him the most random event theme and he is going to show up on theme. And he did not go shopping, you.

[B]

Guys, for the super bowl this year, Ryan wore these cowboy boots that were also Jordan 1 sneakers at the bottom.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Red.

[A]

No.

[C]

Air forces.

[B]

Air forces at the bottom, bottom. Red and white for the Chiefs.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Red and yellow. Something.

[C]

And I didn't buy them for the Super Bowl. I just happened to have it.

[A]

See what I'm saying?

[B]

He wore them. Why did you just happen to have them again?

[C]

I was like, oh, yeah, I guess they work for. I think. I think I got them for Coachella, which I don't even know why that made sense. And then I was like, oh, two events that I could wear them to.

[B]

And then didn't wear them to Coachella.

[C]

Sure, didn't he?

[A]

It's one of those things where, like, it doesn't matter what you tell him. He's like, oh, I do have something that can speak to that. And it's, like, not kind of speaking to it.

[C]

It's deep, randomly specific.

[B]

Like, It'll be, like, 100%. It's always.

[A]

That is not a quality that I possess. But I ad.

[B]

Yeah, no, very much same. Yeah. I don't have nothing else, obviously. I think the last thing that we could touch on pretty quickly is the impact on music just overall. Like, I feel like it's had a deep impact on the mainstream musical landscape and continues to, like, resurge every maybe, like, decade. It has, like, another resurgence. Another resurgence.

[C]

Like, even talking about how it was referenced on the Teyana Taylor song or like, how Beyonce just brought it back. Literally vogue in the 90s.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

It is ever, ever present.

[B]

Ever present.

[C]

And, like, literally, like, the way people evoke to, like, house music in general. And, like, a lot of them will be in those music videos.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Yeah. I think pop culture in general would be nothing without ballroom. Yep. And I'm glad that it is finally getting some of that shine.

[B]

Live performances would be nothing. I feel like all of the live performance. I really actually wonder what a space would look like, what live performances would look like without ballroom culture. It would be ass.

[C]

I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I would be bored because they really.

[C]

Do bring a lot of theater. It's like, it's. It's truly theater.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, yeah. I. I feel like if you haven't seen this movie, you should watch it, because you will see the through lines. There'll be so many things. You're like, oh, one. Sorry. There's like, I meant to Willie Ninja. I did not realize it. I was like, why do I recognize that name? I watched it again today. Do you remember Benny Ninja from America's Next Top Model?

[A]

No, I was not that deep into Top Model.

[C]

Beanie Ninja was like a. He was like a coach and guest. Recurring guest on the show. So he helped like a lot of those models learn how to walk. Willy Ninja also was a modeling coach.

[B]

Oh, I do remember Bitty Ninja. Yes, he was.

[C]

He became the house of Ninja after Willy Ninja died here. Yeah, he learned everything. He learned from Willy Ninja. And Willie also like, taught Paris Hilton how to walk like Willie Ninja has such an impact.

[B]

I love the passing downs of the last names too.

[C]

I agree.

[B]

I really like just the whole chosen.

[A]

Family because again, that's my thing. It's like a chosen family. It's like, no, that is my name.

[B]

I really do like that.

[A]

Those are the people that raised me. Those are the people that supported me. This is my community. That's my name, period.

[C]

Huge impact.

[B]

I think that's a good place to wrap it up.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

That's it. That's it for today. Ryan. Jewel. Please let the folks know where they can find you online.

[A]

My socials are at JewelWerker show and.

[C]

My socials are at Good Guy Ry.

[B]

And for those of you who want to check us out on YouTube, obviously you can search Black People love Paramore. The link will be in the show notes. If you have comments, suggestions, hate mail, love anything else, you can email me at Black people love paramore Gmail.com or across all social media platforms at BPL pod. You can find me every day on SiriusX channel 109 in your car, 3 to 4pm Pacific, 6 to 7pm Eastern.

[C]

Amen.

[B]

Okay, bye bye.