A Serious Man with Marc Maron

Summary

BLANK CHECK WITH GRIFFIN & DAVID
Episode: "A Serious Man" with Marc Maron
Release Date: October 12, 2025
Guest: Marc Maron
Podcast Hosts: Griffin Newman, David Sims
Produced by: Ben Hosley

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode of Blank Check continues the hosts’ Coen Brothers miniseries with an in-depth, sprawling, and frequently hilarious conversation about the 2009 film A Serious Man. Joining Griffin and David is legendary comedian, podcaster, and actor Marc Maron, who brings his own Jewish heritage, podcasting perspective, and wry insights into the religious, cultural, and philosophical themes of the film. The trio explores the film’s treatment of faith, meaning, suffering, and Jewish-American identity, while reflecting upon their own family histories and the ethics of storytelling—both in movies and on podcasts.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Podcaster DNA and "Copping Bits"

[03:14–05:15]

• The hosts open with meta-humor about how much their podcast style has borrowed from Marc Maron’s WTF, joking about “copping bits” and the overlap in podcast routines (“lock the gates”).
• Reflect on how Blank Check’s format was shaped by satirizing and adapting elements from podcasts they admire.
  • Marc Maron: "I've copped that too." (03:23)
  • Griffin: "There are like six Marinisms that were in our lexicon for a very long time." (05:08)
• This leads into an affectionate back-and-forth about podcasting tropes, generational hand-me-downs, and how A Serious Man deals with imitative formula (“once you have a signature, the pressure to repeat it starts to weigh on you”).

2. The "Blank Check"/Monkey Paw Phenomenon

[06:10–08:37]

• The hosts and Maron unpack the title concept—the idea of a filmmaker earning a “blank check,” and its curse: “Does success kill creativity?”
• Examples: Cameron Crowe, Coen Brothers ("they have peaks and valleys, but never lose it entirely").
• Maron draws a parallel to interviewing Paul McCartney, who wryly acknowledges his own creative peak instead of insisting his latest work is his best (“I was in the Beatles”—10:32).

3. The Coen Brothers’ Unique Place in Film

[07:35–14:43]

• Comparing the arc of the Coens’ careers to artistic touchstones that reward re-engagement and deepen over time.
  • Marc Maron: “Certain works of art…deepen and take on different meaning. For me, that is the indicator of a true work of genius.” (07:35)
• Discuss the distinctiveness of each Coen film and their command of tone.
• A Serious Man’s place among post-No Country For Old Men films: choosing a small, esoteric, personal story after major commercial and critical success.
• A meandering but fun sidebar on John Malkovich, Benicio del Toro, and actors whose unique presence can warp movies around them.
  • David Sims: "[Malkovich] is a sun-dried tomato. You pile too many on a sandwich, and it's all you taste." (12:38)
  • Marc Maron: "And the burden of Malkovich is…there's the movie that's the movie, and then there's the movie he's in." (12:54)

4. Acting, Food, and Prop Work

[14:43–17:15]

• Maron regales with anecdotes about the nuances and perils of eating on camera (“spit bag” technique; Tom Arnold’s donut ordeal).
• As an actor, he’s more focused on emotional presence than technical continuity—except when his characters’ eating or “mug work” is essential.

5. Jewish Storytelling, Folktales, and the Search for Meaning

[17:15–23:25]

• The Yiddish prologue in A Serious Man sparks debate about unresolved parables in Jewish tradition, and how it sets the tone for the entire film.
  • Maron: “You’re waiting for an end, but there is never an end.” (18:01)
• Judaism as an endless search for meaning in the face of suffering; the habit of questioning and debate; the absence of conclusive answers.
  • David Sims: “Judaism is a search for meaning in darkness…The story you are told is one of suffering and then…more suffering later." (20:03)
• Comparing the Old Testament’s practical, sometimes harsh rules with Christianity’s promise of forgiveness and direct appeal.
  • Maron: “The Ten Commandments are just basic rules for civilization.” (21:46)

6. The Absurdity and Practicality of Faith

[23:25–26:56]

• The insatiable (and ultimately unfulfillable) craving for answers as represented by the characters’ repeated visits to rabbis in the film; each offering more ambiguity.
  • Maron: “People want more answers than that.” (23:46)

7. Cultural Portrayal & Personal Connections

[24:23–36:10]

• All three discuss Jewish-American childhoods—Maron’s in New Mexico, Griffin’s family enclave in Rye, NY, David’s mother’s upstate NY roots—and how A Serious Man uncannily captures that experience of assimilation, insularity, and navigating a sea of “goys.”
• The film’s subtle capturing of cultural shifts in the late 1960s (Jefferson Airplane, Hendrix, changing tastes in music/fashion) and the way those changes edge into even insulated communities like the one depicted.
  • Maron: “You’re caught in the middle of a tremendous cultural shift about to happen.” (37:10)
• Jewish guilt, community, and generational trauma—how the film eschews direct references to the Holocaust to focus on more contemporary identity struggles.

8. Structure and Symbolism of “A Serious Man”

[42:11–57:11]

• Deep dive into the Coens’ process, the archetypes of their characters (especially “the striving man”), and the portrayal of both talmudic and existential crisis.
• The “search for meaning”: the story of the dentist who finds a message on a patient’s teeth is paralleled with the audience’s impulse to decode films and sacred stories alike.
  • Maron: “There is a level of wanting coincidences to mean something… wanting how you perceive things… as having some sort of arc or continuity.” (84:33)
• The Mintaculous subplot and brotherly resentment—Arthur as a mystical interpreter, Larry as a man obsessed with order and literal meaning.

9. Masculinity, Women, and The Unknowable

[86:04–88:48]

• Reflections on how women are depicted as mysterious, often off-screen, the way the camera treats them, and the subtext this carries about gender roles and the limits of male understanding in both families and faith.
  • Maron: “They hold a mystical, unknown space in this movie…something that men are not going to get into.” (86:54)

10. The Finale: Fate, Guilt, and Acceptance

[93:12–95:55]

• The ending’s storm and disastrous diagnosis follow Larry’s ethical compromise (changing the student’s grade), prompting speculation: Is this divine punishment, or random chance?
  • Maron: “Anything you impose on this in terms of moral consequence is something that you are putting on it.” (49:17)
• Cohens’ implicit message: Accept the mystery.
  • Griffin (final): “And as always: embrace the mystery.” (110:11)

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• Marc Maron on ‘Blank Check’ Creativity
  “The buckling under the expectations and starting to think in terms of those expectations as opposed to the movie. It becomes a real struggle.” (07:07)

• Marc Maron recalling his McCartney interview:
  “I said, you know, they think they're doing their best work ever. And he just said, ‘I was in the Beatles.’” (10:28)

• Marc Maron on recurring meaning in Coen films:
  “There are certain works of art that if you go back to them at different points in your life, they deepen and they take on different meaning. And for me, that is the indicator of a true work of genius.” (07:35)

• David Sims, summing up Jewish suffering:
  “Judaism is a search for meaning in darkness... the story you will be told is one of suffering. And you’re like, ‘Oh, okay, and then what happened?’ ‘I don’t know. More suffering later.’” (20:03)

• Marc Maron on existential uncertainty:
  “It’s not up to us to decide… what God is intended. It’s up to us to… to live. You know, he’s not going to give us answers.” (21:22)

• Griffin, on the film’s parable structure:
  “Every single scene after [the folktale] is a version of it in a way.” (47:50)

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IMPORTANT TIMESTAMPS FOR SEGMENTS

• 03:14 – 05:15: Podcast meta-discussion, Maron’s influence, “copping bits”
• 07:35 – 10:53: “Blank check” as monkey’s paw, Coen Bros as artists immune to the curse
• 17:15 – 23:25: Jewish storytelling, ambiguity, suffering, “are there answers?”
• 36:01 – 44:15: Cultural change, 1960s, psychedelic era, generational assimilation
• 57:11 – 66:39: Coen casting, acting styles, Maron’s own audition for the role of Larry
• 70:03 – 73:21: Jewish ritual, Bar Mitzvah memories, specifics of Torah portions
• 84:41 – 85:58: The parable of the teeth, meaning from chaos, cinematic semiotics
• 91:45 – 93:14: The dream of escape (“Canada”), the limits of compassion and fate

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STRUCTURE & FLOW

The conversation flows as a genuine roundtable between three Jewish men of varying generations and attitudes, jumping nimbly from philosophical musings to personal anecdotes, from Coen-specific film geekery to broader cultural reflections. It moves between analytical breakdowns of the film’s scene, character, and structure, with playful tangents about acting, podcasting, and the culture of Jewish-American suburbia. The vibe is at once deeply intellectual and warmly comic—punctuated by snappy banter, self-deprecation, and affectionate jabs.

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FOR LISTENERS WHO HAVEN’T HEARD THE PODCAST

• A Serious Man is placed in both the arc of the Coen Brothers’ remarkable careers and the broader tradition of Jewish storytelling—where the search for meaning is a perpetual process, and answers are always elusive.
• Maron’s guest turn brings a personal, almost rabbinical authority to the subject, linking the quest for faith, the burden of “blank checks,” and the emotional landscape of comedy and creativity.
• The hosts and Maron model the very Jewish values of debate, doubt, and mutual ribbing—mirroring the structure and the questions of the film itself.

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CLOSING

[110:11] Griffin Newman:
“And as always, embrace the mystery. There we go. Marc Maron, serious man on the pod. Long time coming.”

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Next week: True Grit with Stavros Halkias

Transcript

[David Sims]

Lock the gates.

[Griffin Newman]

Hello, this is Blank. Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin Newman. Welcome to the pod. Blankies, Blankstables, Blinkers. Blank you pie. Wall Streeters. Blinker Ricans, Blankadians. This is the pod. This is me. This is Griffin. Big show today. Serious man Mark Marin. Serious Man's the name of the movie. He is a serious man and a funny guy. He's a nice guy. He's a good guy. We had a good talk, good chat, good episode. Long time in the making. We'll get to that. But I think you guys are gonna like that one. Pow. Just shit my pants. Dunkin Donuts. Raspberry flavored coffee. What's new? What's new with me? What's going on here? My dryer is broken. It still gets hot, but it doesn't turn. The drum doesn't turn. Gotta get someone to fix the dryer. I got clothes that are clean, but they're wet. Not ideal. Not ideal. Cat update. I don't have cats. I still don't have cats. No cats. That's the update. I'm allergic to them and I don't like them on a personal level. Trying to. Trying to keep my head on straight. Trying to. Trying to stay normal. Trying to be healthy. Do read the Reddit sometimes. Probably a mistake, but some of the things I'm reading on the Reddit get me a little. Little worked up. What else? What else? I guess. I guess. Yeah. Just. Here's our talk with Mark Marin. Talking a serious man. He's been dream guest. One of the one the ultimate are white whales. I think Mark didn't really know what to expect. Definitely had never listened to the show before. Was surprised how long we were going. Didn't tell him that this was probably the shortest episode we've done in years. But still, it's a good length. It's a good length. It's a healthy length. I think you're gonna like it. Are we adding these intros just to pad it out? No, I thought it was a cool stylistic exercise. Anyway, here we are, serious man with a serious man himself. And a very funny guy, Marc Maron.

[David Sims]

And I'm David.

[Griffin Newman]

So the way, the way we usually start this podcast is I. I do a quote from the movie.

[David Sims]

So go do a quote from the.

[Griffin Newman]

Movie and I ham fist the word podcast into it. But I sort of think at a tribute for this episode we should like cut it. Like fade in on this in the mid conversation.

[Mark Marin]

This part right now, right? Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. The way you do.

[Mark Marin]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Where it's like, there's not the hard start to the conversation.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's true. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I think a lot of people getting to the table setting.

[Mark Marin]

I've copped that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

I mean, you're the king. Everyone's copped every goddamn thing we don't do.

[Griffin Newman]

We do abrupt start, but we've copped like 40,000 other things from it.

[Mark Marin]

I've already done the. Are we rolling? Yeah, we're. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

So now. So now we're doing it. So now I'm going to do the quote. But now I've set up the quote. Okay. Okay. So let me just.

[David Sims]

I didn't have this queued up.

[Griffin Newman]

I had it queued up.

[David Sims]

Okay, great.

[Griffin Newman]

I was getting into the character we've been talking about process for the last half an hour. You got to let me find it. I have it right here. I have a screenshot. It's right here. Can you give me a moment? I've had quite a bit of cus lately. Marital problems, professional, you name it. This is. This is not a frivolous request. This is a serious. I'm. I, I'm. I. I've tried to be a serious podcast, you know, There you go. Right. It just felt like the obvious thing to do.

[David Sims]

I guess so. There's so many things could Sussman just my.

[Griffin Newman]

I had to do. I'm sorry.

[Mark Marin]

I had to do. I had to do just coffee co op.

[Griffin Newman]

We did that for years. We did not have the sponsorship, but anytime I drink coffee, I would say that and I give them the free plug. That was worth a penny.

[Mark Marin]

The other ones, they were initially upset about that until it changed their business entirely.

[Griffin Newman]

Really?

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. The original guy.

[David Sims]

Oh, they were like, come on.

[Griffin Newman]

The associate.

[Mark Marin]

They didn'.

[David Sims]

This is uncouth.

[Mark Marin]

The mail orders were coming in, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

So when we talks. When we started this podcast, it originally, Originally had a different premise. It took us about a year to figure out what the show actually, same with us was.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And when we started, I think we were trying to. In a way, the framing was more satirizing. Other podcasts. Yeah. So we were lifting from every other podcast we listened to and then repurposing other podcasts. Accidental and purposeful catchphrases into our own.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So I feel like we eased off of them. But there are like six marinisms that were in our lexicon for a very long time.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So pow. I just shit my pants.

[Mark Marin]

Who are your guys?

[Griffin Newman]

We did a lot with the one I love, and I brought up with Brandon once, and he said he didn't remember. It is the day you were working the door at the Comedy Store and Damon Wayans walked in and said, I'm just going to do a jazz.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

We repurposed jazz set a lot.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

In context that no longer makes sense.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And then lock the gates. We do a lot of locking. I mean, whenever we talk. Because I feel like I also will reference people involved in the movie we're talking about. If you have interviewed them, I will pull up things that they said on your show. But we will exclusively refer to that as like when Jeremy Strong locked the gates.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, right.

[David Sims]

That's on the gate.

[Mark Marin]

Locked.

[Griffin Newman]

And we also did Almost Famous early.

[David Sims]

Yeah, we did that. Cameron Crowe is one of our first blank check guys because he is.

[Griffin Newman]

He's ultimate blank check career.

[David Sims]

Yeah, right. He gets to a point where he's making movies that don't make sense.

[Mark Marin]

I don't understand what happened. I really. Yeah, because there's only really the two movies. Right. I mean, I think I give. He wrote three times. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is a masterpiece. But totally say anything. Almost Famous during the Blind.

[Mark Marin]

Those are the three undeniable. But that's fine.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, totally.

[Mark Marin]

I don't know what we expect out of these guys.

[David Sims]

I don't love singles, but I think singles has its place or whatever. Singles is to me, Vanilla Sky.

[Griffin Newman]

But Vanilla sky is more divisive.

[David Sims]

Yeah. But what he did was so fine line. Right. Of like. Yes, it's gonna have five acts and it's gonna be very touchy feely. But it'll be funny and it'll be. And it's just like the minute you lose your tone calibration on that, it's gonna be just terrible.

[Mark Marin]

I don't know what happens to certain guys when they lose their tone.

[David Sims]

Is it that they get too successful like to.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, I mean, this was originally the premise of our show was conflicting. Their life like is blank check status. Kind of like a monkey paw. It gets people in their heads. And the first five or six people we covered all fit that paradigm of the success maybe was the worst thing that happened to them.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. But I think. But it's not in terms of that they necessarily get too comfortable. I think they. The buckling under the expectations and starting to think in terms of those expectations as opposed to the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

It becomes a real struggle.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And that to us now we've moved on and we'll cover it with the Cohen's. You know, they have little peaks and valleys, but it's not like the first half of their career is good, and then they lose it and never get it back.

[Mark Marin]

But there are film, the Cohens as filmmakers for me, and not unlike how I talk about, you know, literature or music, that there are certain works of art that if you go back to them at different points in your life, they deepen and they take on different meaning. And for me, that is the indicator of a true work of genius, that you have a lifelong relationship that evolves with the art, that evolves as you evolve.

[Griffin Newman]

I agree completely, and I think they've done a good job. Part of what we're talking about that I think fucks other people is people don't know how to handle it when they get to the stage, where you become the blank thing as a proven formula. The Cameron Crow thing, Right. Once he had done it a couple times in a row, it was like, great. Make a Cameron Crowe movie. We all know what a Cameron Crowe movie is. You don't need to prove it to us anymore. You've, like, nailed it. And that burden of expectation, I think, starts to get in people's heads where they're not fighting against a pressure or trying to find the thing.

[Mark Marin]

Well, yeah, but it takes. So people appreciate or have the reverence for. There's an expectation for people to keep delivering yes, no matter what, and it's diminishing returns, if not dead end. As a creator, that was one of the greatest moments in my podcasting experience, was when I talked to McCartney and I threw him that curveball. It's the greatest moment for me because I really. I wouldn't say I have. I definitely have the ability just out of my own ego, to not have, like, to not audibly have an uncontrollable amount of reverence for somebody. I couldn't.

[Ben Hosley]

Sure.

[Mark Marin]

I couldn't hide it with Keith. And that's fine. We all know that. People who listen know that.

[Griffin Newman]

Well.

[Mark Marin]

All right, well, Maren's just gonna do this.

[Griffin Newman]

When he takes out a cigarette on Mike in that episode, and you just start giggling.

[David Sims]

It's the best.

[Griffin Newman]

It's incredible.

[Mark Marin]

That was great. But like McCartney, oddly, when I went into the McCartney interview and I hold onto this, and it was really part of it. There was part of me that was sort of like, in my heart, I'm like, mom and John Guy. But I'll. I'll talk to Paul. Yeah, but it's like. And everyone else is like, it's a Beatle. And I'm like, I know, but, you know, I'm a John Guy.

[Griffin Newman]

David kicked his head down.

[Mark Marin]

So that moment where I've talked to a lot of musicians of that generation, and just because of their egos, they have to believe they're doing their best work ever. You know, when you talk to Roger Waters and he's talking about his fourth or fifth solo album, you know, they're kind of saying, well, this is really what. So knowing that, I asked Paul and I imagine you heard it, I said, so a lot of people I talked to of your generation, you know, think that they're doing their best work now. And then, by the way, he was promoting a bad record.

[David Sims]

Well, which record was Egypt Station? It's a pretty. And even by his late standards.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

I said, you know, they think they're doing their best work ever. And he just said, I was in the Beatles.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

That's a pretty high attitude.

[Griffin Newman]

You can have the best. It's. It's perfect. And I think. I think the Cohen's have done an incredible job. As much as every single movie they have made in their career is distinctly a Coen's movie. Couldn't be made by anyone else. Right.

[Mark Marin]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

Is in some way capturing that Coen Brothers thing. Totally. What that could be is very varied. They have stretched it in multiple directions, sizes, genres and all.

[Mark Marin]

And most in a lot of the later movies, you know, we're. We're paying homage to Hollywood.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

To being movie fans.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

You know, like, no one talks enough about hell, Caesar and I never shut up about it.

[Griffin Newman]

Masterpiece.

[Mark Marin]

Masterpieces, right? Yeah. A double feature of Barton Fink and Hail Caesar. That they. They're almost. It's almost a sequel.

[Griffin Newman]

Or it's the same movie, same time.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

They're both capital pictures. Yes. The first time I saw it, I was like, yeah, it's good. And David was like, no, it's a masterpiece.

[David Sims]

I always hope.

[Griffin Newman]

And I have seen right to the map since then. And every time I watch it, it's what you're saying, oh, my God, it's only been fucking eight years or whatever. Every time I watch it, I go, there's shit in this I did not see.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, my God.

[Griffin Newman]

Did not get. It keeps getting deeper.

[Mark Marin]

And one. And Clooney, one of his funniest performances.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Like when he's in that armor in that communist meeting, trying to Just on his chair.

[Griffin Newman]

Here's like, oh, come on. Here's indication of guys who know how to handle their career really well though, Right. Sneakily. And they always write it off as like, I don't know. We don't overthink these things, right? They make no Country. It is their highest grossing film up until that point in time. They win three Oscars, win best Picture. Right. They're each walking out of there with three trophies. They already, at the time they're on the Oscar stage, have burn after reading in the can. Their follow up to no country is something that is seen as kind of like a goofy lark. Why are you doing.

[Mark Marin]

I had to rewatch that.

[Griffin Newman]

I love that movie.

[Mark Marin]

I, I love it now too. Yeah, I just have a. I, I have some sort of strange issue with Malkovich sometimes.

[Griffin Newman]

Interesting. That to me is like maybe the best application of him ever.

[David Sims]

But I'm with Mark.

[Griffin Newman]

David, can you share your Malkovich?

[David Sims]

Wait, what's my.

[Mark Marin]

No, what?

[David Sims]

That He's a sun dried tomato.

[Griffin Newman]

He's a sun dried tomato.

[David Sims]

You know, it's like you put eight sun dried tomatoes on a sandwich and then you're like, right, I'm eating a sun dried tomato sandwich.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And also you can't put him on any sandwich. You got to build a sandwich properly.

[Mark Marin]

That's the thing, my take on him.

[David Sims]

And I love him sometimes I really know he's great.

[Mark Marin]

I love Malkovich, but. But the burden of Malkovich is that. And how I usually frame it is that there's the movie that's the movie and then there's the movie he's in.

[David Sims]

Yes, right.

[Mark Marin]

And it's a separate reality.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Benicio sometimes is like that too. It's like, he's great, but he's obviously in some other.

[Griffin Newman]

He's going to do whatever he wants.

[David Sims]

To do and if the movie needs.

[Griffin Newman]

To sync up with him.

[David Sims]

Because I just interviewed Wes Anderson for the new movie that Benito is the star of. And he said while we were talking about Benicio, he's like, I know this is trite, but I'm looking at the monitor with Bruno, who's my dp, while we're filming it, and I said to him, like, it's like we're watching a movie. Yeah. And Bruno was like, I know what you mean. You know, like it's like just his face.

[Griffin Newman]

Anything he does is watchable.

[Mark Marin]

His face is crazy. And the space they occupy. Yeah, yeah. I rewatched Burn after Reading and it to see those guys.

[Griffin Newman]

To see.

[Mark Marin]

And Clooney does it in a lot of the Coen movies. It very specific and almost broad comedic choices as actors like that. The stuff that he and Brad Pitt were doing in Burn After Reading.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Is.

[Mark Marin]

Is some of the best comedic acting.

[Griffin Newman]

I agree. On screen and I think Clooney and Byrne is like, specifically underrated because he has so many other Cohen's performances.

[David Sims]

Because that guy, so big in that movie and all that, such a guy.

[Griffin Newman]

That I've never seen anyone play before. And you immediately go, I've met 20 of these dudes.

[Mark Marin]

That scene in the, in the restaurant where he. Where he takes a bite and he doesn't know if he's got shellfish, he's like, and I'm okay.

[Griffin Newman]

And even his orig. His initial. His character introduction is him having the odor and talking about whether he's lactose intolerant or if he has reflux.

[David Sims]

I always took it as in making fun of Pitt a little bit because Pitt's always eating or whatever, that he's.

[Mark Marin]

Kind of like, I could do some.

[David Sims]

Busy eating if you want me to do some busy.

[Mark Marin]

But I've been trying to do that as an actor lately, not be afraid to get involved with the food.

[David Sims]

Don't you have to, like, eat it, like, take after take or whatever?

[Griffin Newman]

You got to be strategic.

[Mark Marin]

No, you get a spit bag.

[David Sims]

Right, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You're a spitter.

[Mark Marin]

No, I, Yeah, I don't. I haven't eaten that much, but yeah, I have spit. That. That's the best story, that Tom Arnold story. Do you remember that? Where he was on a movie for the first time or. I don't know if it was first time, but he had to eat donuts and he didn't know about the spit bag. So he was just like. By the. By the fifth take, he couldn't, you know, he was so full of donuts that he was sick. And they, he didn't know that that was an option.

[Griffin Newman]

It's.

[Mark Marin]

It's kind of funny. My problem with food is, is that it's, It's. It's a continuity thing. Like, you know, you've got. You've got to do the thing and they can cut around it usually, but you do have to be aware, like, if you eat once, if you committed to that bite on that fork, you're in for it. It's not so much to food, but you've got to time it. It's another thing. You have to think about it.

[Griffin Newman]

Now, do you enjoy that game? Because I kind of like the additional stressor of. I think it gives me a structure to my handle on this.

[Mark Marin]

It can, but, like, yeah, it's not my nature to, to. To think about those things. I more want to be emotionally present or just present. Present. But there are some dudes that love it. Like, I had Eric Stoltz Yeah. On my show, Marin. And he had a salad and he was all about it. Yeah. Like, he. You know, he was eating it, and then he was like, cat. He was, like, storing it. And he knew, like, it was definitely a part of a thing that he loved about acting was the challenge of getting that continuity correct.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, and also, like, in. In meal scenes, by and large, you're seated. You're having a seated conversation, which is so static. Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

I'm big on putting the fork down.

[Griffin Newman]

That's great for accentuation.

[Mark Marin]

Just put the fork down.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, you do it at the top.

[Mark Marin]

Just so I don't have to eat. Yeah. You know, but I'm noticing on Stick this new Apple showman that I do. I do the. I'm doing the mug work. I'm doing. I'm doing.

[Griffin Newman]

Because your guy loves the hotel breakfast.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. And. But there's also just sort of, like.

[Griffin Newman]

All right, it's written in as a character.

[Mark Marin]

This character is something you can handle.

[David Sims]

Let's.

[Mark Marin]

Let's try work this other muscle.

[David Sims]

Let's.

[Mark Marin]

Let's do the mug thing.

[Griffin Newman]

I just think. Right. Both to, like, sometimes use it as an exclamation point on lines, and other times use it as a way to throw away lines.

[Mark Marin]

But there's also. It does imply a naturalism.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, exactly.

[Mark Marin]

You know, like, you can. You can be aware of punctuating things in there within the arc of any scene. But when you do do it, and I'm watching it, I'm like. It makes it seem more real if you do these things.

[Griffin Newman]

This movie has a very subtle version of that, which is. What's his name? George Wyman. The. The second rabbi who tells the story about the teeth and his tea work.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

His teacup work. And when he chooses to take a sip.

[Mark Marin]

Great.

[Griffin Newman]

When he's just holding higher up in preparation.

[David Sims]

George Weiner.

[Griffin Newman]

Weiner.

[Mark Marin]

When he goes. Yes, the goy.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Well, that's. I need to talk about that line. But that's a very important line. Who cares about the.

[Griffin Newman]

He's kind of taken off guard because he's refocused his attention so much to the teacup that the idea that this guy's still hung up on the story is surprising to him. Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

Because the story is a story he's told a million times that, you know, and the closure of that story, it's not about the story ending. It's about some sort of strange. I don't know if you would call it. It's not really an allegory, but it's a Fairly classic Hasidic tale where, you know, you're waiting for an end, but there is never an end.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, it's a microcosm for the whole movie. And it's the same as the fake Yiddish tale at the beginning of the movie.

[Mark Marin]

Well, those are all those stories, like, if you know that. Like that Martin Buber translation of the Hasidic Tal. You know, Woody Allen was definitely kind of preoccupied with some of that as well. That there is no conclusion, really, that is satisfying in the way of an ending.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[Mark Marin]

And I tried to, when rewatching the Serious man, to talk to you guys. Like, I was really trying to understand on some, you know, story level why they opened with that. With that.

[David Sims]

The fable.

[Mark Marin]

The fable. Oh, that's what. The fable. That's the word I'm looking for. And it does have implications for the actual story of a serious man. But it's still peculiar. It's a peculiar story because when the rabbi walks back out into the night with the ice pick in his chest, it is not conclusive. Like, he's saying, he might be going to die, he's going to be dead. And she's completely confident in her assessment of the situation and her impulse to kill him.

[Griffin Newman]

Resolution. You don't know if this guy's going to die, if he's supernatural or not, and whether or not it's going to come back to them either way.

[Mark Marin]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And they were. They've been very adamant when they talk about this movie that they were like, this feels like the kind of thing that should open with a Yiddish folk tale. Yeah. They looked around, they didn't find one they liked.

[Mark Marin]

And they wrote one.

[Griffin Newman]

They wrote one. Right. And they've been like, it has nothing to do with the movie at large. It doesn't link in. A lot of critics at the time were like, I think they're being sneaky, and this is some, like, ancestor of the family. And everything that's happening to this guy is the long tail curse of that. Which I don't think it is. I think it's more just about the idea of these things happen to us. There's no reason why it happened to us. We did nothing to bring it upon ourselves. And we'll have no sense of resolution at the other end of it.

[David Sims]

Judaism is a search for meaning in darkness.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And that often the story you will be told is one of suffering. And you're like, oh, okay, and then what happened? And they're like, I don't know. More suffering later.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm sure the fact that all of Judaism basically was retroactively turned into the prequel for Christianity. Right. The Old Testament.

[David Sims]

We're a bit of a retcon as.

[Griffin Newman]

A religion, but also our religion is like Star wars up until the ending of Empire Strikes Back where everything's really bad. And then Christianity was like, and what if a guy came along and kind of fixed it and slowly, like, taught us lessons that gave us, like, a sense of optimism.

[Mark Marin]

But I think more than optimism, it's the humanness. Yes, yes. That bridges the gap between the celestial and the human. And it also makes it user friendly because, you know, with Old Testament Judaism there, you know, everyone always talks about the, you know, the vengeful God and this God or the angry man in the sky. But I think in that, that same conversation with the T, that was his name, was it Nussbaum that. That rabbi, that wiener played? Well, you know what he says that I think is the key to. One of the keys to. It's a knock, knock, knock, knock to the, to the movie, is that it's not up to us to decide.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

You know, what God is intended. It's up to us to, to. To live. You know, he's not going to give us answers.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

We just have to honor the, the rules. Right. And I think that's. That's sort of the key to the.

[Griffin Newman]

Whole thing, which the building blocks of all religions are basically like children's tales to teach you lessons on how to behave.

[Mark Marin]

That's right.

[Griffin Newman]

They're like just those stories and Grimm's.

[Mark Marin]

Fairy tales, the Ten Commandments are just basic rules to. For civilization. They know that if you, your neighbor's wife, that. That's going to probably end in murder.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

Or somebody's going to lose their lands.

[David Sims]

Of the Old Testament. Right. It's just kind of practical. Yeah, exactly. Because that's the whole thing with how do we kosher stuff where you're like, that stuff will get you sick. It's 4000 BC.

[Mark Marin]

That's right.

[Griffin Newman]

You're gonna pour milk on top of a pig. What the are you doing?

[Mark Marin]

It's crazy.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

But they're just rules to, to maintain order in a community.

[Griffin Newman]

And then in the vacuum of a direct relationship or direct conversation with God. In modern soc. Spending thousands of years going back to the original texts, we keep trying to put more and more on them. And this guy keeps on going to rabbis and being like, explain to me why this is happening. And they don't view it that way. And he just keeps thinking, I'll get to a higher rabbi. Who's in touch with something deeper, who gives me the perspective. And the highest rabbi who won't talk to him, will only talk to his son because he has to his, because it's the only thing he wants in his basically ceremonial job.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The only thing he wants to talk about is like Jefferson's starship, kind of airplane.

[Mark Marin]

Excuse me, airplane. But, but, but he does. And then he goes, now what? Yeah, but, but also the, the Jesus thing is really, you know, you can talk to Jesus.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

And, and, and there's a set of answers.

[David Sims]

Right. You can say, hey, Jesus, thumbs up, thumbs down.

[Mark Marin]

Well, no, I, I, I up. Forgive me.

[David Sims]

Right on that too.

[Griffin Newman]

It's built, that's a structure where they're like, this is how you talk to Jesus. You're always listening.

[David Sims]

Yep.

[Mark Marin]

And I did a bad thing. Forgive me. And then the priest will forgive you or the Jesus you have in your head will forgive you. You're pre approved, but you know, you're flawed.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[Mark Marin]

And that, that also is fully Old Testament, that it's just chaos and nobody can follow these rules completely unless they're enforced by modern laws like murder and some of the other ones. But, but everyone's flawed. Everyone's going to fluctuate. And that's just the nature of people. And that's a given. And I think people want more answers than that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And the sense of forgiveness is not built into the same the Old Testament in the same way. So the idea that you're flawed comes with the recognition of failure.

[Mark Marin]

And the weight of it.

[Griffin Newman]

The weight of it.

[Mark Marin]

And the constant.

[Griffin Newman]

Tried to be a serious man.

[Mark Marin]

That's right. And the constant conversation, whether it's Talmudic or it's just. Jews argue with God all the time.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Jews defy God all the time. Yes. And either they get what's coming to them or they don't.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. But either way they feel bad about it. That is the cornerstone of Jewish guilt.

[Mark Marin]

Or they, or they succeed tremendously.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

And you have to assume that they'll.

[Griffin Newman]

Feel bad, but they're eating them up inside. Who knows? Right.

[Mark Marin]

But they might not.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the scariest part. Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

But the thing that, that struck me about rewatching it because it's one of those movies I keep going back to and I have a certain, you know, there is something familiar to the beginning of middle class Jewry, you know, in terms of, you know, the kind of once Jews are reluctantly invited into the community or the social circle is just regular people.

[Griffin Newman]

So you were New Jersey and New Mexico Right, yeah.

[Mark Marin]

My parents are from Jersey, but I grew up in New Mexico and there was a. At the time we moved there, in my temple, there's probably 500 families.

[Griffin Newman]

But, you know, it was a similar kind of onslaught within a culture.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. Conservative, middle class, Jewish. Yeah. And, you know, and I've talked about this a lot lately, is that many Jews, the identification. It's not that it's all cultural, it is still religious. But most Jews were never taught, unlike Christianity, to sort of have an active and sort of practical relationship with God. That, you know, usually it was more about Israel and about ritual and about showing up occasionally in the community. But that is the nature of Judaism. Yes, but we, you know, even in terms of like, you know, is there a heaven or hell? And it's never been made clear to.

[David Sims]

Me, me in Jew, they don't know.

[Mark Marin]

But he talks about it. He talks about some of the deeper Talmudical stuff, of the different possibilities of post death. And then you assume that the Kabbalah, which is this uncrackable code, has some sort of deeper understanding of the mystical, which is what. And in this movie, that is what Richard Kind represents, is that he is writing the Kabbalah. And there is a moment where you're like, oh, this is a schizophrenic. This guy has mental problems. And then he turns to the page where there's a Hebrew in the middle, the middle of it, that he's trying to decipher in his either slightly schizophrenic sense. He's trying to make sense of the universe. And he's obviously jealous of his brother, who is a mathematician, who is a guy whose job it is to get the answer. So the control freak element of the main character is built into the mathematician thing. That as a character, why wouldn't that guy want answers? And the idea that he can't get answers for a guy that has done the work to get the answers is kind of a great character. And in the dream about what's his name, the guy who's having an affair with his wife, where he's at the blackboard, the massive blackboard where he writes.

[David Sims]

Out the uncertainty principle.

[Mark Marin]

The uncertainty principle, well, that is modern.

[David Sims]

Talmud or whatever like that is. Right. Mathematicians being like, let me explain to you why nothing makes sense about the world.

[Griffin Newman]

It was the other line I thought about quoting at the beginning. But what a perfect piece of writing the uncertainty principle it provides. We can't ever really know what's going on, so it shouldn't bother you not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the midterm.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

And then in that dream, you know, Sai, who is now a dybbu.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a great point. He has basically become a dybbuk in this guy's life.

[Mark Marin]

That's right. And in the dream, you know that what sort of eventually happens is I know he's calm until you know, he's like, I fucked your wife. So that is the human. Like it's all. The whole movie is just different versions of that opening Yiddish scene. That, that these are all those stories.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly. That's the point of the opening.

[David Sims]

And I also think Judaism is like, what should we do?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

You know, like most conversations you're having.

[Griffin Newman]

David.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You're a money monster. Self proclaimed.

[David Sims]

Oh sure, Yeah. I care about money. I want to, you know, keep track of it, save it.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, here's the thing. Most people can't name all of their financial accounts or what they're worth. 401ks properties, investments. I speak of other people. I can't relate to this.

[David Sims]

It can be very overwhelming. Of course. Keeping track of whatever you've got saved and whatever you're got invested or whatever you. Yeah, of course.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's so much worse than that. David.

[David Sims]

What's going on?

[Griffin Newman]

This lack of awareness leads to leaving money on the table. That's my least favorite place for money to be.

[David Sims]

Leave it in your wallet.

[Mark Marin]

Yes.

[David Sims]

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[Griffin Newman]

It's not on your table. I was about to say the same thing.

[David Sims]

And right now, just for our listeners, monarch is offering 50% off your first year.

[Griffin Newman]

That's half. For people who aren't fluent in this kind of like finance speak, 50% is half.

[David Sims]

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[Griffin Newman]

I got 401ks in different area codes. Does that track?

[David Sims]

No. No modernizing. So some modern will maximize your investments, it'll increase your savings rate. It'll easily review finances with your partner and financial advisor if you have one of those. And it will Give you a clear view of your financial health week to week and long term.

[Griffin Newman]

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[David Sims]

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[Griffin Newman]

We love them.

[David Sims]

Look, don't let financial opportunity slip through the cracks.

[Griffin Newman]

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[David Sims]

So true. Use code [e-mail] in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first [e-mail] with code check, check. Monarchmoney.com code check, check. This film, my mother was.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a Blank Shake with Griffin and David. By the way, I'm Griffin David. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks. I like how whatever crazy pattern they want.

[David Sims]

My mother. Go ahead.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Sometimes those check clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. This is a miniseries on the films of the Coen brothers, Joel and Ethan Cohen.

[David Sims]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

It is called Pod country for old cast.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Today we were talking about a serious man. Yep. With Mark Marin.

[David Sims]

Hi, Mark.

[Griffin Newman]

As I was sort of setting up.

[Mark Marin]

Reading all that stuff, all of us.

[David Sims]

Oh, yeah, we don't.

[Griffin Newman]

It's all staying in burn after reading comes out like six months after they win the Oscar. Yeah. This is the first movie they make with the Oscar success.

[David Sims]

Correct.

[Mark Marin]

One of their best movies.

[David Sims]

I think it's arguably their best.

[Griffin Newman]

But it is certainly in the argument they're guys where you're like, there are five movies that would be undeniably the best film in anyone else's career. And those five movies are fighting with each other.

[David Sims]

I think they've got 10.

[Mark Marin]

So they never. They never buckled under what we talked about before.

[Griffin Newman]

That's what I'm saying. For this to be the post Oscar winning movie when most people Would go, now's my time to make True Grit, my big Western epic. They wait to do that. They were like, we got to tell this weird, small, kind of punishing story with theater actors. No movie stars, but.

[Mark Marin]

And with complete meticulous control of the story. And it's still sort of totally a Coen Brothers movie, but it's an interesting example. They never. And it seems like they've sort of stopped working together.

[Griffin Newman]

They're in a weird place, but.

[Mark Marin]

But there's rumors that could be done. Why not go out? You know, like, how are you gonna argue with any other. I even. I watched the Hudsucker Proxy again, one.

[Griffin Newman]

Of my favorite movies.

[Mark Marin]

It's a great movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I love it so much.

[Mark Marin]

You forget that you buckle to reaction without having the personal experience to other people's reaction to it.

[David Sims]

You.

[Mark Marin]

You rewatch it. They did exactly what they set out to do.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Yeah. It is a perfect movie on the terms that they set out for themselves. People were just confused by.

[David Sims]

Obviously, their interviews were always a little knit and cryptic, but they are not guys who are like, ah, that one. We could have used another week on that one. Or like, ah, we. That one of the complete control is.

[Griffin Newman]

The only one where they're like. It feels a little amateurish to us because we didn't know what we were doing. Which one? Bless them. Simple.

[Mark Marin]

Their first movie. It's great, though.

[Griffin Newman]

It's great.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it rocks.

[Griffin Newman]

But that's the only one where they're like, I watched some of it and I wish I'd done it differently because I just didn't know. Know.

[Mark Marin]

But they were finding their. Their way. Look, I watched Miller's Crossing the Other, like, a couple weeks ago. Great. It's great. Yes, it's great. So your mother. Judaism.

[David Sims]

You can get to that later if.

[Griffin Newman]

You want, but we got to get into it now.

[David Sims]

My mother was raised in Utica, New York. I think you know that upstate New York. And I think it's similar to what you're talking about of like, there were Jews. It's an Italian, Irish city at that time. But, like, there's enough Jews and she's conserved. It's the 50s. Yeah. This is the exact same, I think. Think. And I don't think I've ever seen a movie have a more profound, you know, Proustian eating. The madeline effect on her than this movie ever.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

But because the whole thing is a poet. It's a meditation on. On the.

[David Sims]

The picket fence.

[Mark Marin]

Americanism and Judaism.

[David Sims]

The struggle of Judaism at the same time. And it's what about the goy is the line where she was like, you have to understand, we didn't care about the goy like that. The goys, that's she. They get that.

[Mark Marin]

So now the goys know it and they're angry and we're all going to pay.

[Griffin Newman]

Living next door to the guy from this movie. But the guy next door isn't gritting, is saying it under his breath.

[David Sims]

They named Ellen, like they picked the most American name. They sent her to public schools. They wanted her to be as American as possible or whatever. But at the same time, like, I feel like there was that. Well, we don't really care about the guys.

[Griffin Newman]

So my dad grew up in Rye, New York.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Lower. Yeah. In the state. But it was a similar thing where it was like three Polish families, cousin families that all immigrated together, bought like a row of houses and basically made their own neighbors. Neighborhood.

[Mark Marin]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

And then became friends with like three other families that had done the same thing. Mega family groupings. Right. And my grandfather was like the dirty Hungarian who broke in and basically had to abandon his family.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

In order for them to accept him. So it was the Newman's, the Rabinowitzes and the Orlovskies. And the Rabinowitz's were atheists in the like 1950s. Sure. And that was this sort of like. Don't say it too loudly.

[Mark Marin]

Well, yeah, there were, there, there were atheists, there were communists. Like my great aunt and uncle were of the kind of communist bent old timey commie Jews. There was a lot going on in terms of Jewish identity then. But I think one of the things that I take away from this film in watching it again is that it really documents in a very unique and specific way something that has been approached before is that the changing of the culture towards, you know, the, the 60s coming in.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Because that Jefferson Airplane album's already out. So this has got to be what year? It's got to be like what, 65?

[David Sims]

I think it's 67.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. 67.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

So everything is on the precipice of change, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And it's going to take a minute to get to Minnesota, but it's happening on the coast.

[Mark Marin]

But, but it's happening in middle class culture because they're picking it up from youth culture.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

And the kid is on the pulse of it. And the fact that during the, the, the dental stories they're playing Hendrix's Machine Gun, it's crazy.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Because that song is a very specific meaning and whatever it indicates about Signs or symbols. But during that whole song, the seeing the Hebrew lettering, help me, please help. And it's like, why that choice. And I think that what they're exploring even at the end with the old rabbi is that it's at that time where the chaos that has now reaped the social reaction that we're seeing now to the quote, unquote, freedom of the 60s. And the open mindedness that it implied is that that was an embracing of a chaos that none of them could understand. And that it became a cultural movement to sort of, you know, not just anti war, but psychedelics.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, right.

[Mark Marin]

And the idea of potential and that, like when he's up on the roof with that antenna and all of a sudden he has that moment where Hebrews coming in, TV shows are coming in, you know, sounds of the Yiddish are coming in. And then he looks to the sun that there you're. You're caught in the middle of a tremendous cultural shift that's about to happen. And that at the end of it, the old rabbi is, you know, he understands that, right? He understands that moment when the truth is revealed to be lies, you know.

[Griffin Newman]

But also what's the thing that matters? You want somebody to love. Like basically that hits him.

[Mark Marin]

He doesn't get that far. Right?

[David Sims]

That's true. He doesn't get that far.

[Griffin Newman]

But you have to imagine that's the thing that kind of locked in for him is the song is identifying. Isn't that kind of the core need that all of us are driven by at the end of the day?

[Mark Marin]

I guess so. But I do like the idea that on the periphery of Jewish mysticism in general and Jewish stories in general is something unknowable, but something that must be sort of accepted as just life. And now, you know, they're all over this movie. We're entering this psychedelic era where that unknown that was once terrifying is now going to be just embraced and you're just gonna throw yourself into it. And with that comes Vietnam on the other side. But I think that the way that's suggested and referred to in the film as this slight, you know, kind of. It's not meant to be menacing, but it is happening.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

In the scene where she smokes pot with him.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Mark Marin]

And he's just looking at the glass and then he says, and that's the psychedelic moment. It's bonafide. They shot it that way. And he's just looking at the glass and he says, maybe the young rabbi was right, the first rabbi. It's just all my Perception.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, they also do. They shoot that scene with this vignetting around the edges of the frame. And I think the only other scene in the movie they shoot that way is the folktale at the beginning.

[David Sims]

Interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

They're the two kind of hallucinations. What were you about to say?

[David Sims]

I was gonna open the dossier.

[Griffin Newman]

Can I say a thing before that?

[Mark Marin]

Okay, what's the dossier? Is this a bit.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no, this is real. This is a no bit.

[David Sims]

A researcher who does great work for us. You know, digging up sort of production history, stuff like that.

[Griffin Newman]

I was just gonna say because I. You. You talked about your mom made me realize. I don't think my dad's ever seen this movie.

[David Sims]

That's insane.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm also realizing that he. He basically, I think, would have been bar mitzvah this exact year.

[David Sims]

Same with my mom.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, I think she was permit. Exactly.

[Mark Marin]

They used it there too. Oh, when he's on the pulse.

[Griffin Newman]

You're right.

[David Sims]

Yeah. When he's characters are stoned.

[Mark Marin]

Psychedelic moments the same way. A timeless psychedelic moment.

[Ben Hosley]

Because it so captures what it's like.

[David Sims]

To be high on pot, especially when you're a teenager.

[Mark Marin]

But to be a high on pot at that moment, that is crazy. Yeah. In front of God, people speaking another language. You're holding the yud. Is that what it's called?

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

I think you know that and the scrap.

[Griffin Newman]

Favorite sound of the yud that they do.

[David Sims]

My favorite thing is the guy going like to get the Torah up.

[Mark Marin]

Those things are fucking tough guy. But the pressure of that moment and then sort of like, you know, realizing you're high. One of the funniest beats of that movie is when he sees the buddy he got high with knowing that he's in that. It's not even hell. It's a mystical moment and he taps into an ancient frequency, which is really. That is the God consciousness.

[David Sims]

That's my implication with the. Who's the old.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, I just had that realization that psychedelia, the chaos of psychedelic experience and the chaos of war in Vietnam, that is all in the God consciousness.

[David Sims]

That's where Marshak is supposedly.

[Mark Marin]

He's above it.

[David Sims]

Exactly. Because the inspiration, as you said, Griff, they wrote this the same time as no country and Burn after reading. They wrote them all at the same time.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

They've said they've never been so productive.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is in their three separate. It's coming off of two consecutive flops. They write three masterpieces basically, all in a row.

[Mark Marin]

What were the flops?

[Griffin Newman]

Lady Killers and Intolerable cruelty, which were.

[David Sims]

Their sort of intolerable cruelty I'll stick up for. But certainly they're least critically successful.

[Mark Marin]

I don't even feel compelled to go back to those. I. Maybe I should. I recruit.

[David Sims]

He's pretty funny, especially if you like Clooney in Cohen's mode.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, he's great.

[Griffin Newman]

It's kind of them doing a Preston Sturges movie.

[Mark Marin]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

But those movies at the moment were absolutely flops. That's all I'm saying that it was. And it was seen as them trying to level up and make more commercial studio films, but that ended up being too idiosyncratic for audiences, and critics, treated them as if they were selling out.

[David Sims]

Scott Rudin is like, hey, I've got this Cormac McCarthy novel. They're like, okay, we'll look at that. They start working on Burn After Reading at the same time. They start working on this at the same time. And the inspiration for this is what they call, like, an ancient rabbi that they knew when they were kids, who they call, like a sort of a Semitic wizard of Oz, like this weird Yoda like Rab. He was they all kind of revered, but he never spoke. Like, that's. That's the genesis of a serious.

[Griffin Newman]

But this film is set earlier than their childhood would have been. Right?

[David Sims]

Yeah. No, no, no. They.

[Griffin Newman]

They.

[David Sims]

They'll cop to. This is pretty autobiography.

[Mark Marin]

No, it seems like.

[Griffin Newman]

I just remember when it was announced.

[Mark Marin]

It's got to be like, he's got Joel. 70.

[David Sims]

They were born. Correct. Joel's 70, even 67. They were born in the mid-50s. They're basically like. Like a couple years younger than my mom, like. And they were apartments good in 67.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah. Joel was when this movie was announced. And they usually do kind of an era of mystery around what the project is, if it isn't based on some.

[David Sims]

Public what they say is not autobiographical. It was like that. That's not their dad. No. That's not their family.

[Griffin Newman]

But that's just more than I remember them saying, like, they're gonna follow up no country with a movie about a boy getting bar mitzvah. That's autobiographical. And it really felt like, oh, they're gonna do their, like, Avalon, their Fablemans. And then when the trailer came out and it was like, it's about the dad. They talked about that at one point. It was more split narrative, like the boy and the dad in equal measures, even though the dad was a complete creation. And then the final product ended up swinging wildly in a different direction.

[Mark Marin]

It's Just like, what's amazing about it. And I really. Because the more I thought about it this morning, I do think that, you know, outside, I think that the core character struggle of. Of the. The main God is. Is specifically 10 commandment.

[Griffin Newman]

Shit. Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

And. And I think the rest of it, the brother is. Is a mystical interpreter.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

That, you know, has a mental illness. Because even as a Jew growing up, you always knew that there was a cousin that had problems.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

But this guy, like, who might be.

[Griffin Newman]

A genius, this guy literally covets his neighbor's wife, like through the thousand.

[David Sims]

He does hit on those commandments he's coveted.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But like to sort of draft off what Mark was saying, the Cohen's do say like, obviously 67. That's when Joel's 14, Ethan's 10. They like the idea of like Jewish liturgical music and Jefferson Airplane were kind of like intertwined for them in that.

[Griffin Newman]

Two different belief systems, basically. Right, right. Rock and roll.

[Mark Marin]

And like, I think they're asking were they.

[David Sims]

Yeah. American.

[Mark Marin]

Were they different belief systems? Isn't that the. At the. The end of all the Jewish stories, there's just this chaos and there's like.

[David Sims]

A shrug of like, we don't know.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. We don't know.

[David Sims]

It's magic.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I guess. You know, and like. But also like boomer sort of, you know, the sort of tail end of like conservative, like post.

[Griffin Newman]

And kind of like the building of radical Jewish American culture. Right. This kind of assimilation post war Judaism.

[David Sims]

That'S assimilating with the sort of doctor like the old.

[Mark Marin]

My great cameo by Michael Lerner.

[Griffin Newman]

Great. Incredible. But like, no one in my dad's sort of like cousin families.

[Mark Marin]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

The Rabinowitz's were like, outwardly atheistic. The other ones were like, can you believe it? But weren't casting them out. No one even pretended to have a relationship to God. It was all. We got to do this stuff because.

[Mark Marin]

It'S like the dinner scene in. In Crimes of Misdemeanors.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Yeah. That's. And like, when my grandfather died, everyone was like, we don't care about this. Right. And even when he was alive, we do like the abridged Seder.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

It was the sense of, we gotta do this because our ancestors did this. We don't think we're communic with anything.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Well. Kind of ritual.

[Mark Marin]

Right. But that. That's almost all of it.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely. But part of that was, I think, them being like, we. We cannot be seen as Jews, period. We have to be Jewish Americans.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Which means our culture needs to be meshed with theirs. We can't be living in our own body.

[David Sims]

You see your neighbor, I think this, you know, like your neighbor, the. The goy neighbor looking at you, and you're like, right. They don't.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm never gonna be.

[David Sims]

Trust that.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There definitely was a difference.

[David Sims]

But I remember needs to be on a swivel.

[Mark Marin]

And I. I remember as a kid that, you know, the bonds that I created with, you know, from second grade on with the Jewish guys, you know, that there was definitely a shorthand. There was a shorthand about sex, about everything. Like, there was, like, an openness and understanding. Like, I'm still friends with David Kleinfeld, who, like, I've known since second grade.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

And, you know, and I remember because, like, these are just one of the. This is a good example. Like, when we were in second grade, his father was, I think an ophthalmologist and was killed flying his own plane. We were in second grade. And I remember David, you know, the weeks after that, you know, at Hebrew school and just, you know, I remember seeing his dad sitting in this yellow car out in the parking lot. But there was no answers. Right. And, you know, and he had three brothers and sisters, and I know his mother and everybody else, and life, you.

[Griffin Newman]

Know, eventually went on profoundly terrible and yet kind of meaningless.

[Mark Marin]

But he had. We still. The community was still there, and they were still there for all of them for the whole time.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Which is also this reactionary, like, we're trying to assimilate, but also we need to protect each other because we're not that far off from feeling like we are the target of the universe. Right.

[Mark Marin]

From the Holocaust.

[Griffin Newman]

Totally.

[Mark Marin]

And it. It is sort of amazing that. That there. There was no Nazi point of reference in this. Yes, there was an American Jew hating reference in a dream. And it's suggested. But it's rare that you see a movie of this era that close to the end of the Holocaust that made. No. There was no point of reference.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Marin]

And that's kind of. That's. That's in and of itself, kind of amazing.

[David Sims]

I agree.

[Mark Marin]

And it is a testament to passing and to integrating.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

We don't want to talk about.

[Griffin Newman]

We can't wear it too.

[David Sims]

But just the way that he talks about that he can talk with his colleagues who are Jewish and they can use these words with each other that they wouldn't slip in a couple of other.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Anyway. But they're writing this story initially. It's a kind of father son story. And Then they're, as they're writing it, they're like, we really just like tormenting the dad. Like, this is gonna be a movie joke about the dad. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And as you say, they claim with the Yiddish folktale, the ghost story, they're just so like, ah. It's kind of like an ambassador for the movie. It doesn't have any connection to anything whatever.

[Mark Marin]

But in that. In that it does.

[David Sims]

I agree.

[Griffin Newman]

It teaches you how to watch the movie. Cause as you said, every single scene after it is a version of it in a way.

[Mark Marin]

And then ultimately, not unlike those tales, the entire arc of the movie, whatever builds the movie, you know, at the end, you know, it's not a happy ending, but it's an ending. You know, it is tragic. You know that. You know, I was talking to Brendan before that and there was a suggestion that as a consequence for him rationalizing, keeping the money, changing the grade to help his brother, the next thing that happens is, you know, you gotta come in, there's something on your X rays.

[Griffin Newman]

And then a fucking tornado.

[David Sims]

That's how I feel all the time.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Anytime I'm like, should I. Like, you know, should I do. And then you're just like, yeah, but.

[Griffin Newman]

No wireless service provider.

[Mark Marin]

But because of the tornado, which is.

[David Sims]

A real tornado, that really happened.

[Mark Marin]

To imply that there is consequences that are being delivered to you specifically by a God. It is ultimately in the conclusion of the movie. Does not add up. Right. It is not. Whatever that implication is.

[David Sims]

You can't actually chart this happened because of this.

[Mark Marin]

You're manufacturing. And early on, when he's in conversation with the Korean kid, he's like, there has to be consequences. And the Korean kids like, no, there doesn't. There are consequences for your actions.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

No, there doesn't have to be.

[Griffin Newman]

It doesn't have to be. That's choice.

[Mark Marin]

Anything you impose on this in terms of moral consequence is something that you are putting on it.

[Griffin Newman]

Correct.

[Mark Marin]

And that's the nature of the movie and what it's trying to say, that it is all relative to your perception that all you can do is try to be a decent person and that you have no control over anything else.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, also for movies that are so fun to read into and analyze and.

[Mark Marin]

Search for meaning, you could teach a course on this for.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely.

[Mark Marin]

On this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

The Cohens have always kind of made fun of people who try to break down the symbolism of their film.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Or the intent or what they're trying to say.

[Mark Marin]

But this one crazy.

[David Sims]

Except the mystery.

[Griffin Newman]

But then yet the Movie is telling you to do it. To do it. And also accept that you're never going to get answers.

[David Sims]

The task says except the mystery.

[Griffin Newman]

It's never going to lie. Can't.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Look serious. So their last movie, I'm just, just, just briefly touching on this research. Obviously Burn After Reading has a zillion stars in it. They don't have a budget on this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Burn After R. Big hit. People forget 100%.

[David Sims]

But they really want a lead actor who's basically unknown to the audience. Obviously, Michael Stobarg was sort of a Broadway name. Is Face is not really. He was a Tony nominee.

[Griffin Newman]

You know who auditions for this role, Right.

[David Sims]

You can tell me. Mark Mariner.

[Mark Marin]

I did. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Was it for the lead?

[Mark Marin]

It was a very low level, you know, first.

[David Sims]

Did you meet with the Cohens?

[Mark Marin]

No, no, it was just like that first, sort of, you know, throwing out the net. You know, I met with the casting agent, Ellen Chenoweth. I think so. And you know, I went in and they taped me and I remember had a full Van Dyke kind of beard situation. But I really wanted it, you know, and I really read it and I thought that, like, I could do that, but I didn't have the chops to do that. And I'm not thrilled with their choice of him.

[Griffin Newman]

Really.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, here's what I thought. Watching it again last night is that like, you would have fit perfectly somewhere in this movie. And I think you would fit in so well in a Coen's movie in general. I think you innately would be too powerful and forceful.

[Mark Marin]

I could have gotten too.

[Griffin Newman]

But I think there's even just like a baseline level of indignation within you.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

At the world.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That you cannot totally diminish.

[Mark Marin]

There wasn't a. There wasn't really a part in this movie for me unless I really had better chops as an actor then, which I didn't.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

You know, I. I imagine that I could play the lawyer I probably could have played.

[David Sims]

I think he could have been Arthur. It's a different Arthur. The Richard kind, you know, like. But like.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, it'd be a different Arthur.

[David Sims]

But I can see that again, they're just sort of like.

[Mark Marin]

But again, that's doing with.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a wire beaten man.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And he's so good because he's right. The physicality of kind like the shoulders. He's so.

[Mark Marin]

And also, like, I had. We had a cousin Brent. You know, there were just like.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, there's one in every family. Right.

[Mark Marin]

That you Know he's Mensa.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

But he doesn't do anything.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

You know. Right. For years I tried to make a joke work about that. And it actually is sort of a Jewish, you know, open ended tale joke.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

Where like I remember when I was a kid, my brother, my dad had this cousin Brent who was like a genius. That's all we heard. Brent's a genius. He's in Mensa. And at some point during the early 70s, Brent. And Brent went on to do. He was a chef. Like, you know, like not even at a high end restaurant. The genius, the disappointment.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

It was always. That was the tone of it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

And I remember like knowing this about Brent and then him and his girlfriend stopped over in New Mexico when they were driving cross country, you know, to, you know, stay the night. And I just remember it was like, this is the genius. And he was just this like kind of hippie ish dude with this woman. And then when they left, before they left to get back on the road, they made us breakfast. And my punchline and I really tried to make it work was like. And I gotta be honest with you, those were the best eggs I ever. The genius eggs.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

But it never landed. And I thought like, how else do you end that story? It's a perfect end to it.

[Griffin Newman]

But I think you gotta have the experience that is actually a thing you kind of can't communicate in a way.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, I think the kind charact character is such a heightened version of it that he works in a way that reads for the story. Even if you don't have someone like this within your family structure. It is also funny to consider that at the time this movie came out, he is undeniably the biggest name. Like, sure.

[David Sims]

He's your most famous face.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know if you remember this.

[Mark Marin]

Bigger than, I guess Fred was.

[David Sims]

I think Fred was really just a guy who's in Woody Allen movies.

[Griffin Newman]

He had done like seven Woody Allen movies and voiceover roles like Amy Leonard. Similarly mostly done voiceover. Like half the cast are like local people found in Minnesota. Adam Arkin was probably the second.

[David Sims]

He's really biggest.

[Mark Marin]

He's great. Yes.

[David Sims]

Larry is not cheap. It's just. He's just really good at that.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you remember when they announced this movie and all the like Oscar prognosticator websites were just like, I guess Richard Kyne for best supporting Actor, sight unseen.

[David Sims]

Right, right. Like he'll crush in some coins if.

[Griffin Newman]

The Cohens are making another movie. And now they're Oscar guys and kind is in it.

[David Sims]

Let me tell you about storyboard.

[Griffin Newman]

And this is like the least Oscar y part ever, despite how great kind is. It's not designed to give someone the kind thing like.

[Mark Marin]

No, the, you know, the implied sort of competition between the brothers at one point. Like, obviously they were both mathematics guys.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

And. And Kynes life just didn't work out. So he's doing this, like, massive schizophrenic project to beat his brother.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

At the same game.

[Griffin Newman]

And also draining his cyst and, like, crying.

[Ben Hosley]

That would be pretty ma.

[David Sims]

That. But that's such a. That.

[Ben Hosley]

That, like, if that's what I ended up having to do.

[David Sims]

I know, but I feel like that's another, like, thing, like the sort of 50s where it's like. Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

People have like a thing like, oh, so busy.

[David Sims]

Like a big biblical plague. Yeah, No, I know. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Weird 60s machine.

[Ben Hosley]

Right. Gets boils.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

In the story. Okay, that makes sense.

[Mark Marin]

But he's also like, you know, there's a biblical dynamic. A biblical, you know, a biblical brotherly dynamic.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

You know, well, the Cain and Abel thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

You know, but there is something about, you know, the nature of two brothers and one is painfully compromised.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Yet there. There's still like. And there's a resentment to him.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

That, you know, that, you know, he doesn't direct at his brother, but he directs at God.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

But ultimately, in that moment at the pool, it's at his brother. It's like, Hashem looked out for you. You have a job. You have, you know, like, the jealousy and the fear.

[Griffin Newman]

And this guy's life, by the way, is cr. Like, the guy whose life he covets is, like, absolutely crumbling. But he looks at, like, you have the firmament of what looks like a normal American life.

[Mark Marin]

And I have the monk, the Homunculus, or whatever it is.

[David Sims]

The Mintaculous.

[Mark Marin]

The Mintaculous, which is very pro. It's a very thought provoking, deep movie, you know, in so many ways that, like, I'm surprised that it took me kind of moving through it again in the last few days because I watched it recently and I watch it primarily because it's familiar to me and I never really set out.

[Griffin Newman]

It's weirdly comforting.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

As a Jew, if you live in our headspace, it is a weirdly comforting movie to watch.

[Mark Marin]

But it's unlike any other Jewish movie. It's unlike any depiction of Jews. And it wasn't until. And I've always sort of half tried to figure it out, but to sort of put into Some sort of criticism around all the.

[Ben Hosley]

The.

[Mark Marin]

Not just the story, but the characters and also the changing of the eras and the nature of chaos and the nature of coincidence and the nature of trying to have control. Like it's one of those movies and the reason why it's a masterpiece is all of those are touched upon. Everything is touched upon that makes us human and questioning. If you do that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Most people don't.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. David. This episode is brought to you again by mubi, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs. There is always something new to discover. With mubi, each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema streaming anywhere, anytime. But what, David? What if the cinema is actually kind of tv?

[David Sims]

Wait, this is a debate now?

[Griffin Newman]

This is a debate. No, it's a cool thing we allowed to log this ad. Read on letterboxd is the debate to.

[David Sims]

Mark the 35th anniversary since the release of the groundbreaking television show Twin Peaks. The complete original series plus its 2017 follow up, the limited event series are all available for the first time on movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It's very exciting. I see people even, even just last week on the Reddit saying, hey, I still haven't watched Twin Peak. Should I listen to the episodes that they're going to spoil things for for me? People, people are catching up with the back catalog. We did all lynch last year. We did all the Twin Peaks. Maybe you want to watch along. Maybe you want to rewatch. Maybe you want to watch for the first time. It's a great, great opportunity. David Lynch's distinct vision and here's the word I always mispronounce aesthetic have made his name synonymous with a unique cinematic style.

[Mark Marin]

Lynchian.

[David Sims]

Oh, this is a very Lynchian show.

[Griffin Newman]

Breaks the borders of reality to expose the unsettling truths hidden behind the American middle class happiness and allow the viewer to indulge in a bittersweet and dreamlike confusion.

[David Sims]

Why has this become like a wrestling promo?

[Griffin Newman]

Because I'm trying to hype people up.

[David Sims]

Okay. Obviously you should go watch Twin Peaks if you haven't on Mubi and then you can go listen to our long discussions about it on Blank Check. That would be exciting. There's also really cool other television on movies such as Coryda's Going, My Home, Lars Frontiers, the Kingdom which they restored.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

William Kentridge's Self Portrait as a coffee pot.

[Griffin Newman]

And coming up, coming up, one Kar.

[David Sims]

Wise Blossoms Shanghai and Mussolini Son of the Century from Old Joe Wright.

[Griffin Newman]

Old Joe Wright.

[David Sims]

And we do have a big Joe Wright fan who's silent in the studio with us who's giving me a double thumbs up. Yeah, Mark Frost and David Lynch's Twin Peak.

[Griffin Newman]

We love it.

[David Sims]

Just dream the best of cinema. You can try movie for free at for 30 days at blank check. That's mbi.com blank check for a month of great cinema for free.

[Griffin Newman]

This episode is brought to you by White Claw Surge. Nice choice hitting up this podcast. No surprises. You're all about diving into tastes everyone in the room can enjoy. Just like White Claw Surge. It's for celebrating those moments when connections have been made and the night's just begun. With bold flavors and 8% alcohol by volume.

[Mark Marin]

Unleash the night.

[Griffin Newman]

Unleash White Claw Surge. Please drink responsibly. Hard seltzer with flavors, 8% alcohol by volume. White Cloth Seltzer Works, Chicago, Illinois.

[David Sims]

So Stulberg, just want to tell you, initially auditioned to play the husband in the Yiddish story.

[Mark Marin]

Wow.

[David Sims]

He learned Yiddish. He learned the entire scene in Yiddish, like, how to. How to do it. He does the audition for them and they're like. And then months later, they ask him back to read for Uncle Arthur and then for Larry.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And then they meet with Richard Kind, who I think they're thinking about for the lead role.

[Griffin Newman]

Kind of. Yeah.

[David Sims]

And they just are like, we just really want. You know, he would have made a.

[Mark Marin]

Meal out of it.

[Griffin Newman]

He would.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You also need someone like Kind in the shorthand way for the brother because you're not going to spend that much time on him. Him.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And the look gets you like half the way there to the characterization.

[David Sims]

And yeah, like, Kind had, I guess, auditioned for Burn after Reading. They knew, you know, who doesn't know?

[Griffin Newman]

But had never worked with them, had.

[David Sims]

Never worked with them before. They initially wanted him to maybe play a rabbi in this. And then they are like, no, he'll.

[Griffin Newman]

Also would have made a meal out of that. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yes. And Fred Melamed had auditioned for them all the way back for Barton Fink for them for the learner role for the studio.

[Griffin Newman]

Head. Head.

[David Sims]

Which makes sense. He's got that velvety voice thing, you know.

[Griffin Newman]

But you look at his career before this, and truly, it's like seven Woody Allen movies and three other credits until this.

[David Sims]

As Joel says, psy is the sex guy in this movie. Every film needs one. And I do just love that everyone in the movie is like, I mean, it's Cy Abel. This is a robust.

[Mark Marin]

It's like this guy, but he up Right, right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

But.

[Mark Marin]

But the, like, the idea that he's a sex guy, even in this film.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

You know, it was so grounded in something fundamentally Jewish and. And fundamentally not sexy in even the Jewish way.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

You know, you don't got. It's not Elliot Gould you dealing with.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right.

[Mark Marin]

You know.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

He's not a. Right. You're right. You're right.

[Mark Marin]

And it's only that sort of. That implication of, like, you got to let it breathe, like. Like he's a sophisticated charmer.

[Griffin Newman]

He is a serious man. Yeah.

[David Sims]

They make. Made the movie for $7 million. To quote Ethan Cohen, when you're making a movie about a Jewish Midwestern community in 1967 and Fred Melamond is the sex guy, they don't give you a lot of money. They shot it in Bloomington, Minnesota, which is where the Mall of America is. They look. They wanted, you know, they looked around for basically suburban neighborhoods that looked like their childhood neighborhoods. Shop for 44 days, finish ahead of schedule, which is like the classic Cohen story. It's like, under budget on and finished early.

[Griffin Newman]

And they at this point, have their thing worked out with working title, where most the time they'll just let them do whatever they want.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah. And Deakins, Roger Deakins, their dp, shows up with all these, what they call swing and tilt lenses that are. That just skew the focal plane and stuff where that he had just been doing them, using them on the assassination of Jesse James.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Which is so funny to think I'm working on that incredibly painterly movie and then showing up to this and being.

[Mark Marin]

Like, this will be good for the stone scenes, like, but also for the. From the roof scene.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Burn After Reading was the first movie they hadn't done. They'd done without Deakins in over a decade.

[Mark Marin]

You know, what's interesting is, oddly, in terms of, you know, psychological terrain and sort of almost mystical interpretations, the closest movie to this of theirs is Martin Fink.

[David Sims]

Yeah. 100%. Like, in terms of the liminal, kind.

[Mark Marin]

Of like dream reality, sort of feeling the unknown.

[Griffin Newman]

But a thing I find so interesting is, like, such a recurring theme of theirs is. Is a guy who is so obsessed with a sort of outside perception of his own mediocrity that he needs to prove himself, punch above his weight class, do something demonstrably great in a way to win everyone's respect, and just gets in over his skis and torpedoes his whole life in the process. This is not that guy. This is a movie that starts with a guy who is Pretty comfortable with where things are and everything starts collapsing around him. Well, also he's looking for an explanation for why it's happening to him because he has done nothing to bring it upon himself.

[Mark Marin]

Well, but what his. I think that's his. Probably his biggest sin.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely.

[Mark Marin]

And also like he pulled it off. He became an American.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

And maintained his Jewish identity. But he is living what was presented as the American dream. This is what we're here for.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

We're not, you know, we're not the first wave immigrants. We're the second generation. We've now integrated into the middle class. I have a house, I have kids, I have a job. I'm about to get tenure. I did it.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. But Barton Fink is like a pretentious, elitist, self centered weasel, you know, and.

[Mark Marin]

Also a socialist Jew.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Jerry Lunder Garden Fargo is a guy who's like stacking up crimes in order to like get over the hill and prove that he's like a big man. Right. This guy is just comfortable tapping out at bare minimum. Right.

[Mark Marin]

But also he had, he believed he had principles.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

And that he had artistic integrity and that his art meant cement something which. Yeah, yeah, Barton. Yeah. But one. Garden is also the neighbor. It's also absolutely. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. I mean this movie is basically the goy. Is centered around the guy who Lundgard tries to sell the true coat to. Calls him a. Right.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

A liar.

[Griffin Newman]

A liar.

[David Sims]

A liar.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's an entire movie centered around a guy with that energy.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Who's just like. I'm on the receiving end of Jerry Lunder guards every day of my life.

[Mark Marin]

The. Oh, the sweaty goodman in that. In, in. Barton Fink is just the best. And the bugs, that movie is so good.

[Griffin Newman]

That's David's favorite. Right?

[Mark Marin]

Fink?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Fin.

[Griffin Newman]

You're a fin guy.

[David Sims]

But this is, I think right up there.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, maybe.

[David Sims]

Yeah, they're. They're linked for me because of that movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Stberg already had a Tony nomination at this point.

[David Sims]

He's in the Pillow man, the, the McDonna play.

[Griffin Newman]

I will say it's a great play. He plays a developmentally disabled adult man in that.

[David Sims]

That.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a tough role. It is maybe the only time I've ever seen someone do that where I was like, this is 100% respectful and not embarrassing.

[David Sims]

I saw it on the London stage. Not too bad. And Adam Godley played that role and.

[Griffin Newman]

He was one actor.

[David Sims]

So.

[Ben Hosley]

David grew up in the uk, Moved.

[David Sims]

To the UK when I was nine.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, that's nice.

[David Sims]

It is nice.

[Griffin Newman]

It's wonderful.

[Mark Marin]

They have some real history.

[David Sims]

Yeah, they do. To live in a place.

[Mark Marin]

To live in a place where there are walls from 600 A.D. i mean.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's lousy with fucking cast castles.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

When they're designing this movie, Mary Zofri, who's their costume designer, finds a Sears Roebuck catalog that she. That's called Deep Autumnal, she says, from the 60s.

[Mark Marin]

And she's like, there you go, Autumn.

[David Sims]

I basically use all of that for Generation. And I like this. She bought this Tahitian fabric for Leo DiCaprio and catch me if youf can, and she'd never used it. And then for Sai Abelman, she was like, that's what Sa's gonna have.

[Griffin Newman]

He.

[David Sims]

He's. He went traveling. S. The kind of guy who comes back wearing some kind of, like. It's like the shirt or that he's wearing or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

It also, this movie, I think the.

[David Sims]

Jolly Roger would be appropriate. Griffin.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Surely you just.

[Griffin Newman]

This movie has that smart art direction, costuming thing of, oh, it's like, 67. But everyone here is basically still right. No one's at the tip of the culture.

[David Sims]

And that's what Mad Men is, where you're just like, well, why does Don Draper still wear a hat?

[Mark Marin]

Isn't it the 60s?

[David Sims]

And. And it's like, yeah, but, like, he's not dressing like a hippie tomorrow.

[Mark Marin]

You know, I grew up, you know, just on the cutting edge of, I guess, Gen X. I'm the last boomer. And we were still, you know, when I was in high school and junior high in the mid-70s, it was still the crashing wave of the 60s, the late 60s. 71.

[Griffin Newman]

And that's the furniture everyone still has in their homes. It's not like 1960 hit and people threw shit out.

[David Sims]

Nobody swapped everything out for pieces. Yeah, exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly.

[Mark Marin]

There's a little bit of it going on, like in the. In the. In the game room or the family room, there might be a beanbag and.

[Griffin Newman]

One of the kids, the fringes. It's just starting to leave. Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

But like.

[Griffin Newman]

And you assume when these guys go off to college, it's going to be open season.

[David Sims]

What's going on, though? It's like the kid. The boy just wants to watch F Troop, which is like that. That shows just sort of a Western sitcom.

[Mark Marin]

Right?

[David Sims]

Like there. That's a very traditional.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, they had a fort. It was Larry Stork.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And the guy. The guy with. Let me say it. The famously Huge hog. Right. Wasn't the other guy in F Troop one of Forest?

[David Sims]

Tucker.

[Griffin Newman]

Tucker Forrest. Tucker.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know that he's on the Milton Berle list.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, really?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, on the Liam Neeson list.

[Mark Marin]

A lot of good it did him.

[David Sims]

He was on F Troop.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, I know.

[Griffin Newman]

David had to Google his name.

[Mark Marin]

F Troop's fuzzy Larry Storch was like a.

[Griffin Newman]

A comic kind of like, quietly, you could argue. An early alt comic kind of.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. Like him and Professor Irwin Corey.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

Where I felt, I feel like he.

[Griffin Newman]

Was kind of doing character stuff.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Almost a weirdo Persona. Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

There have always been weirdo weirdos.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. In terms of comedy, there's always been a couple that were undefinable.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. But I feel like he was an early version of Is this guy from Mars.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Not the sort of making jokes, self referencing. How weird.

[Mark Marin]

Crazy guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But yeah, the kid just wants to watch F Troop and listen to Jefferson Airplane and get stoned.

[David Sims]

Girl just wants to go out with her friends to the mall or wash her hair.

[Griffin Newman]

Wash her hair.

[Mark Marin]

But he does have to learn his Hoffman Hatura.

[Griffin Newman]

He does.

[Mark Marin]

Which was a nightmare. I, you know, I think if I go on to think about this movie more, I'll try to figure out, you know, what was the topic of that Hatorah bar mitzvah. Well, I know what mine was.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Marin]

I, I did.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh. Figure out what it is in the film.

[Mark Marin]

What story is he telling?

[Griffin Newman]

What.

[Mark Marin]

What portion is he reading?

[Griffin Newman]

What did you do?

[Mark Marin]

I'm trying to remember now. I guess it didn't really land to me. I have to, I have to go look at my book Jerusalem Syndrome again. To remember what the topic was. It was. All I remember was, is that it was relatively short and I got lucky.

[Griffin Newman]

Smart. Yeah, yeah. Or luck. Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

What you look that up. What was the Torah portion? He read that.

[David Sims]

Well, I know. I was never bar misfit.

[Mark Marin]

No, but I mean in the movie. In the movie.

[David Sims]

Okay, okay, I'll look it up. So. But I wasn't bar mitzvah because we'd moved to England and my mom, I mean, not to talk about my mom too much on this podcast, but it is a serious man. I guess seriously was kind of like, I don't like the vibe of the jud Jewish people here. Like, she couldn't find the kind of reformy.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, no, it's hard. I remember I was always fascinated when I interviewed British Jews because, like, you.

[David Sims]

Just associate them or you don't really.

[Mark Marin]

American middle class Judaism Is the stereotype.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[David Sims]

Right. The closest she could find was American transplants in London.

[Mark Marin]

Right.

[David Sims]

Like, we have a little thing here.

[Mark Marin]

For, you know, and also you got to figure that the Jews were there forever. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, so it's a totally integrated thing. It's like Jews from the south that were here, that came over before that first European immigration, but, you know, first slavery business. Yeah. I mean, there were Jews in the, you know, plantation South.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

That. Yeah. It's. It's kind of crazy because we all have such a strong identity with this middle class, you know, 50s Judaism that kind of built us. But there's like, I remember that going to the, the Yad Vashem in, in Israel, the, the, the Holocaust Museum. And there's just the. They showed like Jews from around the world because you. Identity, you think you know, Jews and then they're just showing like, you know, Africans and you're like, oh my God, what a. Like a myopic idiot I am. Yeah. You know, but they're not Jews like us. Right, Right.

[David Sims]

His Torah portion is Leviticus. And like, I do think it is funny when you get handed this Torah portion where you're like, oh, what's it about? And it's basically just being like, oh, if you have a farm, you better not have a farm too close to the other guy. You know, it's just some rule.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And then. Right. Everyone in their bar Mitzra translates it to like, to like. It's like in school when you have to resist the temptation to cheat off of someone else's test and everyone gives them like a round of ten commandments.

[David Sims]

But like, literally, it's just like, you shall count seven weeks of years. Seven times seven years. So the time of seven weeks of years, she'll give you 49 years. It's a bunch of math. And I bet you the Cohen's picked it for that exact reason. Right, right. And it is just so funny when you read the Bible and half of it is like, yeah, he's fed this to a whale because he doesn't listen to him. The other half is like, if a lady has her period, steer clear for her.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, yeah. To that.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. That causes the same kind of like, spiral that this movie is about of being like, how does this relate to my life? What am I supposed to take away from this?

[David Sims]

Yep.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. Or what? I don't even know it.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

The stories.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Like, there's no implication of middle class Judaism that anyone knows the Bible.

[David Sims]

No. I have struggled with my relationship to Judaism. And not. Not that it was. I wasn't even bar mitzvah, so that pushed on me that hard. But, you know, the only time when I'm in a temple and, like, pe. The only magic to it, to me is, like, people said this 3,000 years ago. Sure. The same we're saying right now, like.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, these words. The same as seeing Romeo and Juliet staged or whatever. We were like, this is crazy. This text is.

[David Sims]

There's some magic.

[Mark Marin]

And also, you're singing in Hebrew. I. You know, we did Adon Alum at the end was always. And then, you know, someone brought a new version, and it's like, what are we doing? What's with the fact I, I. I like Adon?

[David Sims]

Oh, yeah, you don't like the.

[Mark Marin]

Right. And then all of a sudden, it's. I don't share my love.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, I was off. What's happening? Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

I mean, that. And that does happen.

[Mark Marin]

And then. Oh, yeah.

[David Sims]

My mom.

[Mark Marin]

Reform synagogues, like, what's with the guitar? Why is there stained glass in here?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. My parents definitely tried to push that on me to be like, this one's fun. They're puppets and an acoustic guitar.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah. Where the guy's like, you know, stories are like, a little kind of like about the Avengers. It's not about the Avengers.

[Mark Marin]

Give it the weight it deserves.

[David Sims]

Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. God was kind of the original Iron Man.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Sims]

So Larry Kopnick. Yeah. He lives in St. Louis Park. He's got a wife who pretty much first thing she says to him is, I need to get. I'm divorcing you and I'm marrying, say, Abelman.

[Griffin Newman]

Having trouble.

[David Sims]

No hanky.

[Griffin Newman]

Pinky.

[David Sims]

Right. Like, there's not. It's all above board.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

So. And I believe her. I feel like it is just that she's like, this guy's so magnetic.

[Griffin Newman]

It speaks to what a guy he is that she's ready to leave her husband just at the idea of Sable.

[David Sims]

Because the idea is that Sableman's wife just died. Right. Because later, Adam Arkin is like, she's.

[Griffin Newman]

Barely in the ground, but it's been three years.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the thing they keep correcting.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

But also, he's like an adventurous spirit. Yes. And he knows about wine.

[David Sims]

He's expansive.

[Mark Marin]

Right?

[David Sims]

Yes. He's. He's culturally traveling.

[Mark Marin]

The expansive thing again with the psychedelic, you know, undertones. It's. It's. It's all about, you know, not being locked in to this pattern.

[Griffin Newman]

He knows about things outside of this enclave in Minnesota.

[Mark Marin]

So, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

So that's kind of just. That's all that's really going on in the movie is just. That's the inciting thing for tenure. Then it's right. A series of sort of.

[Griffin Newman]

There is a young student who is blackmailing him because he's given him a failing grade. What are the other things stacked up? He's. He's got his brother sleeping on his couch.

[Mark Marin]

Columbia House keeps calling.

[David Sims]

That's my favorite.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the best.

[David Sims]

That. And, and you, you're with him every time he walks in and she's like, he's on the phone again. He's like, I can't deal with that right now.

[Mark Marin]

I, I, I. When I was a kid, I. Yeah.

[David Sims]

I got $12 or whatever, and my uncle would just, like, sign up false addresses or whatever. I feel like it was so easy to fake it.

[Mark Marin]

The ones that were, that I got, that made an impression were Aerosmith's first album, Joe Walsh, the smoker. You drink the whatever you get.

[David Sims]

I don't want Santana. Abraxas.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, that might have been one of them.

[Griffin Newman]

But the ones that do anything.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Sims]

But then did you, did you do the ones.

[Griffin Newman]

Would you cancel them or would you get locked up?

[Mark Marin]

No, eventually you got to get your parents to step up and get you out of it.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

I mean, you don't have the money.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You know, because you would tape, like, a penny back.

[Mark Marin]

Well, no, you had to buy, like, three or four records at regular price.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

You get the, the 12 for free, and then you gotta, you know, you gotta buy a certain number of records.

[Griffin Newman]

The free thing was actually a brilliant business strategy to be like, well, kids just take the initiative and mail it in and the parents get stuck with the bill.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

I definitely don't have to ask for permission the first.

[Mark Marin]

And also you get new music.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

You know, like, you're like, that sounds good.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Steve park, who played, obviously, Mike Yanagida and Fargo plays the student's father.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm trying to think Clive as the.

[David Sims]

Student is the student. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is also right. Like, another form of assimilation is like, here is this foreign family that has moved here and named their son Clive.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, that. That assimilation, too, is very interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Because, like, the one moment where the name neighbor actually reaches out is like, is, do you need help here?

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

Because the guy was Asian.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Is there a problem? He's like the, the hierarchy, both hate them. Yes.

[Mark Marin]

You know, that can bond us.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

And if that, the, if the movie has a structure it's just these three visits to rabbis that he makes that are him seeking answers, I guess, initially demanding a guest. Right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

A traditional Jewish divorce.

[David Sims]

Right. And.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's hoping he can all also get some kind of clarity for why his life is in the place.

[Mark Marin]

It is all at the same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

And he sees first Simon Helberg, Rabbi Ginsler, and then you see Marsh. Simon Helberg.

[Griffin Newman]

This is an event. Simon Helberg film.

[David Sims]

Right. Then he sees Knockner, and then. And he never sees Marshak. He doesn't get to see Marshak.

[Griffin Newman]

You see Marshak.

[David Sims]

His son gets to meet Marshak. And. Yeah, there's not much did. No one's saying anything about the actual politics at the time, is there? Do they even reference Vietnam, maybe in the.

[Mark Marin]

I don't think so.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't think so.

[David Sims]

Like, and it's like. Like you're saying the sort of cultural shift is. Is on the edges all the time.

[Mark Marin]

The reference is Machine gun by himself.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

The references art. That's about Vietnam.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And other stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

But, yeah, like, you're not talking about who's president in this movie, right? No, yeah.

[Mark Marin]

No, it's Johnson. It's. It's all a biblical struggle.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, yes.

[David Sims]

And he is put upon in ways that you initially can keep track of. And eventually you do start to kind of think, like someone actually does need to intervene here.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

But everyone. He. And it's a series of meetings. It's all meetings.

[Mark Marin]

Yes.

[David Sims]

He's meeting with Sableman. He's meeting with rabbis, meeting with the lawyers. Right. Like, it's always just.

[Griffin Newman]

They're all, like. In one way or another. Yes, right. Yes.

[Mark Marin]

But I think, interestingly, if I think about it, that, you know, the beginning of the third act is the bar mitzvah. So, you know, what you have there is a coming together and an understanding.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the other thing. Everyone he keeps meeting with keeps, like, saying, like, pretty exciting bar mitzvahs coming up. You know, it's the big event culturally.

[Mark Marin]

And also that's the moment where there is. If there is any sort of reunification of the wife in him.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

It's in that they're proud of their. That's right. Right. But there it is, fraught with expectation. Because he's stoned.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

And they're all one.

[David Sims]

They should be proud of him. He's dancing on a pinhead. I mean, he's. Yes, well, they are. In that Hebrew. They don't know. I know, I know.

[Griffin Newman]

He's hitting those.

[Mark Marin]

Like, they were nervous because they didn't know if he was nervous or what, but there's a moment, like, is he going to pull it off?

[David Sims]

Right. They do say. They do keep saying to him, like, you got to cherish this. Right. You know, like, the people will be like, you know, you know, your kids are young, like, oh, sure, cherish.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And I guess there is the implic. That Larry cherishes nothing in life. Like, it's hard to know what Larry likes.

[Ben Hosley]

He cherishes math.

[David Sims]

I guess so.

[Griffin Newman]

But he also doesn't seem to derive great pleasure from.

[David Sims]

It doesn't seem like he's into teaching.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Everything feels like a burden on him to some degree or not.

[Mark Marin]

I don't know if I. If I got that with the math. I think that, you know, it was his salvation.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

And that, you know, the fact that he could share that. I mean, being a teacher, I mean, is another important position, you know, biblically speaking, that everyone's framed that way and that the context of his teaching was, if you knew how to do that, you could be effective and, And. And share the wisdom.

[Griffin Newman]

But he also seems so beleaguered at the struggle of how to communicate it to other people. Right.

[Mark Marin]

As much as it is teaching kids.

[Ben Hosley]

He's teaching Schrodinger's cat.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Hosley]

Like, really complicated, abstract stuff. It's not easy to teach.

[Griffin Newman]

I think he puts value on the system, this language that makes sense to him and helps give him a sense of order in the world.

[David Sims]

Everyone's searching for. For meaning.

[Griffin Newman]

So.

[Mark Marin]

But there is sort of a. A nebishy. Hubris.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

To his position.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And all he wants is tenure. He wants the minting of. You get to be this guy forever.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Your status is not in question.

[Mark Marin]

And also no expectation to. Like, he hasn't published.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah. He doesn't.

[Griffin Newman]

But like that.

[David Sims]

Now that I think about a rabbinical position of like. Yeah. Once you get tenure, you'll sit in your office. Office.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

People will come talk to you, and.

[Griffin Newman]

You'Ll be like, you've become an elder of the community.

[Mark Marin]

But not so much. It's just sort of like they're in math. There's.

[David Sims]

There's no wig over yes or no.

[Mark Marin]

This is right or wrong.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

Period. And. Yeah. But life. Not that easy.

[Griffin Newman]

It's solvable.

[David Sims]

So he first goes to see Helberg, who tells him, look at the parking lot. And there is a comedy to this that I feel like is so true in religion when you do have to confront someone who's like, hi. Like, I got to be a priest like 20 minutes ago. But I am nominally like a representative of God.

[Griffin Newman]

The three rabbis in the movie are like a guy who's younger than him, a guy who's a contemporary and a guy who's his elder. And immediately he's sort of sitting with this guy with the disappointment of I really thought I was going to talk to the big guy.

[David Sims]

But like Gensler's not going to tell him. He doesn't know about divorce. No shit about divorce.

[Griffin Newman]

He's waiting for this guy to kick him up the chain. You know, he kind of. You can tell that he goes into that meeting not knowing he's not going to get anything that he's happy with.

[Mark Marin]

But in.

[David Sims]

But I do think he gets the best advice from that.

[Mark Marin]

That's right.

[Griffin Newman]

He does.

[Mark Marin]

The perception advice.

[David Sims]

Yes. Like that. That actually he should listen to.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Of just like, just look at the parking lot.

[Griffin Newman]

Like he's pre. Committed to the outcome of. This guy has nothing he can teach me.

[David Sims]

Things aren't so bad.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's what he goes back to.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. It's also funny that it's a parking lot which goes back to Fargo as well where this guy's entire life is built on the idea of, of if I can get this parking lot deal, my, my father in law will respect me. Right?

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like the parking lot.

[Mark Marin]

He's a climber.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the kind of most sacred cornerstone of a community in America.

[Mark Marin]

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[David Sims]

And then you got Knockner who tells the teeth story. I think this is the crowning moment of the movie. Movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean once again it is a movie that has like four things that would be the undeniable crowning moment in any other film.

[David Sims]

There's just something so wonderful involved.

[Mark Marin]

You are in it. Yeah. I think that that that story is in a way the, the, the. Is it the parable. Is that what we call them?

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Fable.

[Mark Marin]

Whatever that is. The fable that explains the movie in the context of the opening fable. And it is what the movie is. Yes. And the fact that the, the reason I say that is because he did take the letters and break down the cabalistic math of what the numbers of the letters implied on a cabal level. Yeah. He did go to the supermarket where the number was four, expecting something. And that. That is the entire search of the movie. That is the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

In. In that parable form.

[Griffin Newman]

And we were talking about before recording the, like, the semiotics in visual storytelling in like the great movies.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And how a movie that's really humming, you're like, you could look at the back of the teeth and they would tell you something. And this is literally a guy who's hyper fixated on the back of the teeth, which are saying something so specific and yet nothing at the same time. And the further he dug, the less answers he got.

[Mark Marin]

And that also the, The. The. I guess the interesting thing is, is that there is a level of wanting coincidences to mean something.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

And wanting how you perceive things in relation to things that have happened before in your life or.

[Griffin Newman]

Or.

[Mark Marin]

Or suggestions of things that happened before in your life as having some sort of arc or continuity to it. And if you look at that, that story about the dentist, he never asks the guy, yeah, how did these. Do you know you have this on your teeth? Right, right. That there's a whole other side of.

[Griffin Newman]

The story he's not asking. That is unexplained, essential question.

[Mark Marin]

That's right.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. To the essential person. But also, also, like, this is how we read movies. Right. Like you're saying, like, you look for answers and meaning and things. Right. And purpose and all of that. And yet movies are like this many people came together and put this much time and money and effort into something that exists in a fixed time. Right. That is a finished work. So you want to look at it and assume that every single decision has some meaning behind it, whether purposeful or accidental. There's something to be inferred by the decision of every line reading, of every costuming choice, of every sound cue of all of that.

[Mark Marin]

And sometimes it's just collaborative coincidence, kismet.

[Griffin Newman]

And we're watching a movie that feels so tightly constructed by these guys who make things that similarly open the same kind of questioning that keeps telling you, I don't know. Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

And also, like the dentist, you know, obviously couldn't talk about it with anybody but the rabbi.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

And that when he tries to look at his wife's teeth, it has to be why she's sleeping. I thought that was sort of an interesting thing about. About how women are handled in this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

And from the very beginning, when the woman just kills the guy, the dybbuk. Right. And without asking the husband, you don't know what the child's gonna do. And then there's a woman on the beach who's kind of flirting with him. That there is something in that subtext and the way that women are handling these relationships. Because once the dentist forgets about. About the teeth, the shot is he's telling a story to his wife.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

You know, and it's clearly not the dentist.

[David Sims]

He's reconnecting with his wife.

[Mark Marin]

That's right. Yes. It's kind of interesting that they, they. They hold sort of a mystical, unknown space in this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Something that men are not going to get into.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

And can't understand.

[Griffin Newman]

Larry's wife also basically disappears for close to an hour in this movie. She's really not back after Saman dies. Her presence is. Anytime he goes over, you just hear her wailing, but you don't see her. He's to the kids. And you just hear her crying upstairs. Inconsolable.

[David Sims]

And that's what the kid says when he. He's like, dad, you have to come home. Mom won't stop crying. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Doesn't tell him why they. But, like, throw it out to him as, like, background knowledge of, like, well, yes, I died. And then she doesn't, I think, appear physically again until the bar mitzvah.

[David Sims]

And then he's going to get her back. He's going to get tenure. He's going to get his wife back, he's going to get his family back together, and then he's going to die of freaking.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, it'll all resolve itself. But that's really interesting if I think out loud about the. The mystery of women in this movie, because it's. It's definitely land.

[David Sims]

Decker is obviously the.

[Griffin Newman]

The.

[David Sims]

The neighbor is like a, you know, God. Exactly. Like, she's like a mystical, deliberated woman.

[Mark Marin]

There's a woman, you know, kind of, you know, flirting with him on the beach and ready to go in for the kill, you know, if he. If he'll take her. And then there's the wife and then there's the daughter. And he literally, he says that she. My daughter, mostly washes her hair. And it seems to be very many steps to the process.

[Griffin Newman]

Women are, like, seen as unknowable, a total enigma.

[Mark Marin]

And it's not our job.

[David Sims]

It's like Hashem.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And like, as Knockner says to him, it's like, it's one way we. He owes us nothing. We can't ask Hashem what's going on.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Like, it's not like Christianity where you.

[Mark Marin]

But it's accepting that relationship, which is crazy.

[David Sims]

But a teeth. We don't know. A sign from Hashem.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. We don't know when he's like, helping others. Couldn't hurt. Yeah, exactly. That's always it.

[David Sims]

That's right.

[Griffin Newman]

Couldn't hurt.

[Mark Marin]

That's the weird trick of Judaism and why we never shut up with each other.

[Griffin Newman]

The more you overanalyze the text, the further you get away from the idea, which is like, don't be an ass.

[David Sims]

It's not like some belief systems where they're like, you have to be nice or you're in trouble.

[Mark Marin]

Overanalyzing the text is the nature of Judaism and it's the nature of Jewish community. It's the nature of Jewish men sitting at a deli. It's the nature of debate.

[David Sims]

I do think that's why I've always struggled with very strict Judaism, which of course exists like Mega Earth, where I'm like, you guys think that's definitely it.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

But the thing is. Is it like.

[Griffin Newman]

But.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

But it's absolute in the sense of. That their knowledge of what you're talking about as being these weird stories about math. That's a week of conversation with a Hasidim. You know, like they're going to like read into that. They're going to interpret it.

[Griffin Newman]

They're doing five blank check episodes a day. Just about single pages of the.

[Mark Marin]

That's right. There's an endless amount of text. It's not as simple as the New Testament. Right. So that like, however we're going to. And God knows, I try to compartmentalize, if not, you know, condescend or am outright anti Semitic about the Hasidic community. They have an almost infinite material for dialogue and debate, you know, outside of their ritual.

[Griffin Newman]

But an infinite. Well. And a very fixed text.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Moving text. Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

But middle class Judaism becomes a fixed text.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

It's. It's simpler and it integrates the possibility of democracy in America.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

But you know. Yeah. And you don't have to wear the same outfit.

[Griffin Newman]

How do we translate this to a modern culture? Gives them new things to analyze in.

[David Sims]

A way speaking to Mark's point about the things that go unspoken. There's also the unspoken thing that Arthur is gay and is sort of up to private hanky panky.

[Mark Marin]

Right.

[David Sims]

You know, like, and when he Torn torment. And that's obviously.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

That's the dark thing he wants to understand more than anything. Right, Right. And then. Then when that is revealed, sort of obliquely revealed by the cops.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

It's never discussed again.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

I mean, I guess he talks to the. The lawyer about like, you're going to need a criminal attorney or whatever. But no one's our third down being like, how can we help you? Or what's going on.

[Mark Marin]

No, but, but, but that, that conversation didn't exist then.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

But there, but there was acceptance.

[Griffin Newman]

There's no path.

[Mark Marin]

There was acceptance.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, but they don't. They can't believe that in a weird way. But with the brother, quiet, unspoken acceptance.

[Mark Marin]

But with the brother, there was unconditional acceptance and love to the point where the dream is, I'm going to help you get out.

[Griffin Newman]

And I was going to say, I find the dream so affecting because the Carter Burwell score in this is incredible. His scores for Aldecon movies are incredible. But this one is so ominous, so repetitive. It is so limited in sort of the motif of what it is repeating. And the first major variation of it is in that dream sequence where he's putting the same baseline melody, but then he's putting this kind of like sweeping, emotional orchestral thing on top of it.

[Mark Marin]

It's the end of a movie.

[Griffin Newman]

For the first time, there is this sense of possibility and uplift, which is. He takes the kids money.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And he buys his fucking brother a canoe and sets him off to Canada. Just a sign that says Canada. And the idea of if you cross the border, maybe over there you can live an unencumbered life.

[David Sims]

Also speaks to the Vietnam time. Like this at was a thing, you.

[Mark Marin]

Know, you go to.

[David Sims]

You go to Canada to get away.

[Mark Marin]

That's how you get out.

[Griffin Newman]

Get away from Canada is the abstract, kind of like bizarro America, which is us without our problem.

[David Sims]

My uncle was going to go to Canada.

[Mark Marin]

But that's a good point, though, because ultimately you don't. You don't escape the violence.

[Griffin Newman]

No. The guy shows up and he's. He's an American and he woke. He wakes up.

[Mark Marin]

Anti Semitic Jew hater.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Yes. So the Jews are, you know, either way.

[Griffin Newman]

And the only other thing the score repeats that sort of tone is at the end with the reveal of the tornado.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So why does he change the grade? Is he just sort of like. Is he affecting feeling like things are starting to go better for me? Maybe I shouldn't be sued up on this part of it.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's like the law Bill. And he.

[David Sims]

Right. He gets the law Bill and he's like, maybe I can just.

[Griffin Newman]

He's so scared off by the nightmare of trying to help his brother escape to a different life that he. But he has the same compulsion within him to protect him. I think especially now that he understands his sexuality and understands the unspoken thing that's never going to be solved within this guy that he feels like the ultimate mitzvah he can do is get this guy back down to zero.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. And who's going to be the wiser?

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And then the minute that there was a real. It's called Black Sunday, it was a real tornado system that ripped through Iowa and Minnesota and they must kill.

[Griffin Newman]

Lots of people lived in it.

[David Sims]

Right, right. 1967.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, right. Then the order of it is, does his superior come in and give him the indication that he's about to get tenure? Right before the doctor phone call and then the tornado tenure.

[David Sims]

Then he gets the bill.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Then he changes the grade and the doctor calls. I love the thing with the tenure.

[Griffin Newman]

Too, where you're feeling the. The fact that he's a little invincible. He's gotten the tenure.

[David Sims]

Was Cy the one writing the letters again? I know, I know. It's silly to ask questions of this movie when we should be accepting the mystery, but write the. That's the. Does feel, though, that when at the bar mitzvah, the wife says, like, Sai was writing letters to the tenure board.

[Griffin Newman]

And they go out of their way to say how eloquent the letters were, how poetic they were.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

That they weren't.

[David Sims]

This isn't someone who.

[Griffin Newman]

English was not the first.

[Mark Marin]

Well, so then, you know, if you're going to believe that, then. Then Sai is the devil.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And sort of is.

[David Sims]

Or he's this mystical, dark beast. No. He's so manipulated.

[Mark Marin]

He has even evil intent.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Size. Whole thing is playing it all as like, look, this is just. It's an intellectual exercise. Right. It would make sense for you to go to the Jolly Roger. It's the right thing to do. This isn't emotional. Right, Larry?

[Mark Marin]

Jolly Roger with an empty pool.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

And he. No, but he. Biblically, he is the. It's not even a Faustian character. He is the only representative of. Of human evil.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And he is also.

[Mark Marin]

He took his wife.

[Griffin Newman]

This is his way of cucking him before he's literally cucked him.

[Mark Marin]

Sent him out of his home.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Is trying to diminish his reputation.

[Griffin Newman]

What are you saying? Oh, my God.

[Ben Hosley]

When he has that conversation and he's like, why don't you move into Sa's house? And they have this look of like, Are you kidding me? It makes me so mad because it's so deeply unfair. It's so like they've made this decision amongst each other and. And there. There's no, like, other alternative.

[Griffin Newman]

And that's when he says, surely you jest.

[David Sims]

Yeah, surely.

[Ben Hosley]

And I don't even actually understand. Is there some kind of, like, religious.

[Griffin Newman]

No, they're just cutting it. No, I really don't think so.

[David Sims]

No, no, no. It's not religious. It's societal.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like, don't break up the family unit.

[David Sims]

Exactly. She's the head of the family.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. So she is defining to him. You have to leave because the family unit is changing with him. Mo House is the continuity, and you're the part that's replaceable. Not.

[Mark Marin]

But also, he might not even really care about her that much.

[Griffin Newman]

He doesn't seem to really have any level of intellectual interest.

[Mark Marin]

Instigator of chaos.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Mark Marin]

He's a biblical bad boy.

[Griffin Newman]

You also get the sense. I don't know. I mean, my inference.

[David Sims]

Who's your favorite biblical bad, bad boy? I don't know. Gotta think about it.

[Griffin Newman]

I. I get the inference in this. That was kind of one of these quiet, kind of like passively arranged marriages. Right. That this was sort of a. Not that they were actually set up to, like.

[David Sims]

Hard to imagine Larry taking charge.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. But you're just sort of like. This is probably like the girl he met when he was 14 and everyone was like, you should marry her.

[David Sims]

Just trying to think of any other.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, yeah, he's good. He's got a good job. I mean, it says arranged as expectations are exactly.

[David Sims]

The rabbi is busy. He doesn't look busy.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he's thinking.

[David Sims]

I'm just trying to think of, like, any other. Because this is such a quotable.

[Ben Hosley]

There's a part where he's talking about their relationship.

[Griffin Newman]

Had you seen this before, Ben?

[Ben Hosley]

No, I'd never seen it before. And he's like, she's usually right about this stuff. And it's in reference to, like, their relationship crumbling.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

Like, I love that he's even not sure about that.

[David Sims]

That.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Ben Hosley]

That he's leaving it kind of up to her.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. That he falls in line with what she's telling him with very little resistance and then has to do the work to actually make her reality of cucking him in it tangible. You know what I'm saying?

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That she's like, I need to get. You have to get the get for me.

[Ben Hosley]

Well, okay. One other thing. The bus scenes.

[David Sims]

The bus scenes, they're Great.

[Ben Hosley]

They're so fun. It really captures what it's like at that age to be on the bus with your friends.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

And I love the kid that keeps just saying all the time.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

Just really.

[Griffin Newman]

You.

[Ben Hosley]

It's like, he's really at that age where you're like, I'm. I've learned this word and I'm gonna use it, man.

[Mark Marin]

And also that the really kind of like, those are. Those kids are American. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

First and foremost, like, even at the Hebrew school, like, on the bus. Us.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

Those are kids that are fully integrated.

[David Sims]

And you have the old teacher guy who feels like he's. And my mom would talk about that, how you'd have these teachers who are Holocaust survivors.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like. Because, like, that was her generation and that they were so. From another world.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. So haunted. This doesn't relate to me.

[David Sims]

And she's like, yeah. I watch, like, Leave it to Beaver and stuff. Like, it's like, she doesn't.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. And F Troop.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. The movie starts at the cold open, right? We gotta shout out 5ish Finkel legend, of course, rules in this.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And this, right? This idea of saying, like, I ran into this guy. You remember him? And the wife is immediately terrified at, like, he died. I swear to you, he died. There's no chance. You saw that guy. And he shows up and the whole question is, was the. The gossip wrong, right. Or is this guy supernatural? Which she then takes the initiative, stabs him.

[David Sims]

Another example of a.

[Griffin Newman]

Walks out into the cold, taking charge of this. Right? And. And the question is, did that doom them forever? Yeah.

[Mark Marin]

Like Adam and Eve and like. And gossip is another very specific commandment.

[David Sims]

And Adam and Eve, the first gossip, right, Is, I hear, fe. That tree.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But then you go into this, like, void of darkness, right? The credits come out, like, really quickly, almost like Superman, the movie flying at the screen with this weird humming that turns into the Jefferson Airplane. You see the small kind of, like, circle of light, and as you push in on it, slowly, you're coming. Coming out his ear canal. You're going into the speaker. You've been in the mind of the son who is so secondary to the narratives of this movie. But here he is sneaking music. The teacher takes it. The money is tucked into the radio. Right? Which he needs to pay the bully back for. For the lid.

[Ben Hosley]

He's running away every day.

[Griffin Newman]

He's just got this quiet subplot the whole movie, which is just this big kid keeps chasing him down the street. And he's got to figure out how.

[David Sims]

He'S trying to give the kid the. And the kid's like, there's a tornado. Yeah. We're about to die. Right? All right, we gotta put. Go ahead, Griff.

[Griffin Newman]

We've not been going long.

[Mark Marin]

I have to go to the Natural History Museum.

[Griffin Newman]

What are you doing at the Natural History?

[Mark Marin]

Gonna look at the whale.

[Griffin Newman]

Hell, yeah.

[Mark Marin]

My girlfriend's never been there.

[David Sims]

That is my favorite place.

[Mark Marin]

And she's a dinosaur freak.

[David Sims]

That. My. My phone pictures. My dog.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, I can't wait.

[David Sims]

In front of the whale.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Sorry to spoil the whale for.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, I'm sorry if I. If I. No, no, no, you're not.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely not.

[David Sims]

No, I just. We have to play the bottom. It's the last thing we do before we finish the episode. Griffin, do you remember when this film came out?

[Griffin Newman]

This came out in September or.

[David Sims]

October 2, 2009. Mark. Griff's gonna. I mean. And feel free to join in, but Griff's gonna try and guess the movies that were top of the box of this movie when this film came out.

[Griffin Newman]

When?

[David Sims]

October 2, 2009.

[Mark Marin]

I'm not gonna be it.

[David Sims]

So my film opened it, I think, to Toronto or.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, that sounds right.

[David Sims]

You know, it had, like, a festival release.

[Griffin Newman]

My relationship to my father was largely solidified in that he shared sports with my brother. I was the first child. I had no interest in the thing that he cared about the most.

[Mark Marin]

I'm the same. Well, my dad didn't care about anything, but go ahead in.

[Griffin Newman]

In a. In effort to connect and come up with an equivalent thing to my dad and my brother. Coveting the sports scores in the Daily News and New York Post every morning. Yeah. My dad tried to build the same ritual over checking out the box office top 10.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, that's nice.

[Griffin Newman]

Every Monday morning, I guess. And so it started this thing of all of these being locked in my brain. So even though this movie comes out in a point in time. Time where I'm ostensibly an adult and not living with my father, you still care about. Most of our relationship is on Sunday being like. You see that number for.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Purse Cream was wild on that. So all of these things are just baked into my brain. I'm a lunatic. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

October 2009.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's opening.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the first screen. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Limited release. So it's not number one. But number one is new this week. Griff. It's an action comedy.

[Griffin Newman]

Action.

[David Sims]

Sort of horror. Action comedy is Zombieland.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Good job.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, so I. I remember there being three new releases There are three. You're right.

[David Sims]

There's actually four.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, let me say I'm gonna pull one thing right out of my ass.

[David Sims]

Go ahead.

[Griffin Newman]

Toy story. Toy Story 2, 3D double feature. Re release happens this weekend.

[David Sims]

You're.

[Griffin Newman]

So I was hoping it was going to overtake Zombieland. I had. I had some personal.

[David Sims]

So that's number three is a. I guess re releases. You're saying it's of the first two Toy Stories.

[Griffin Newman]

They did a double feature because both those movies are under 90s. So it was like a. Right. It was like a three hour double feature with some. Probably one of the greatest movie going experiences of my life.

[David Sims]

So number one is Zombieland. That's number three. Number two is a. A children's animated film.

[Griffin Newman]

And is it also a new release? No, no, it's a coming down from number one. Coming down from number one in 2009. So it was a September. Yep. Release.

[David Sims]

You struggle with this one. It's based on a children's book.

[Griffin Newman]

It's based on a children's book. I've struggled with this one in the past.

[David Sims]

This one in the past.

[Griffin Newman]

Which studies studio released it?

[David Sims]

Sony.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a Sony release.

[David Sims]

He struggles with this one, Mark could have been.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, it's Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs.

[David Sims]

There you go.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I always just don't think about that.

[David Sims]

Because now you have a car, you're in the Bad guys. Is that your cartoon? Yes.

[Mark Marin]

Bad Guys opens in August.

[David Sims]

Hell yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Can I say this? I. I love every time you talk about going to the first screening and hearing that everyone else did kind of their regular speaking voice.

[Mark Marin]

Oh yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And wondering why you put so much effort into it.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. I got to do this every time I talk as a cartoon.

[Griffin Newman]

I just want to say to you, I took my little cousin who's like now 10, but I guess was eight or seven when the first one came out to see that movie opening weekend and I was like, God, fucking Marin's locked in. He's delivering. He's putting in the work. I want you to know the vocal strain you put in that role is appreciated.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, well, thank you.

[Griffin Newman]

And he was laughing at the snake. I'll say that.

[Mark Marin]

Oh, good.

[Griffin Newman]

He doesn't. He doesn't know from wtf. He's not laughing because it's you.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You also played Lex Luthor.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, sure. I didn't even know what that was.

[David Sims]

But they just ambushed you with a microphone.

[Griffin Newman]

I just kind of come across in that performance versus the Snake where I'm like, you got a handle on this.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. No, I like they, I didn't even know it was a big movie.

[David Sims]

Is that the Super Pets?

[Mark Marin]

I'm like, all right, I'll do it. Because when you do animated, it's like you drive to Burbank.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the dream.

[Mark Marin]

And you just do the thing, the absolute. And I had no care about any of that. Yeah, but, yeah, but I put it in with the snake and then like when did you know, people stop, stop doing cartoon voices?

[David Sims]

I agree.

[Mark Marin]

So though Anthony Ramos definitely steps up.

[Griffin Newman]

He does. Everyone's good in it.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sam is it.

[Griffin Newman]

But I just, I like that you came up with a full character.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Number three for Griff. It's a kind of a bomb. It's a sci fi kind of action movie with like a movie star who's getting to be in his dotage, getting a little older.

[Griffin Newman]

He's over the hump. Yeah.

[David Sims]

He's retired now, but he's retired now. He is, yes. For sort of, sort of sad.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, it's a Bruce movie.

[David Sims]

Bruce Willis.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it Surrogates?

[David Sims]

That's right, the film. Surrogates.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And movie I've never seen.

[Griffin Newman]

Me neither.

[David Sims]

Robots. I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

Jonathan Most out. Right.

[David Sims]

And then number five, it's new this week. It's a comedy from sort of a, I guess a comedy otur of sorts.

[Griffin Newman]

You said that with a bit of an eye roll.

[David Sims]

You know, I don't know. I have a complicated relationship with the guy. I think most people do.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not due date, is it?

[David Sims]

No, no. He's British.

[Griffin Newman]

He's British and you have a.

[David Sims]

He's like starring and he's directing and he's writing.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it the motion picture? The Invention of Lion.

[David Sims]

Ricky Gervais.

[Griffin Newman]

Now I've fearless rumor.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Speaking of movies about God. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I heard he doesn't believe in the guy. No, I, I, I swear. Where did you hear that?

[David Sims]

Bad movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I, I deep, deep gossip circles. De Moi was posting about it. You never did Gervase, right?

[David Sims]

You never talked to.

[Mark Marin]

No, I'm not sure why. I did go to the premiere of that movie with CK though.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Mark Marin]

And CK ditched me.

[Griffin Newman]

Cool.

[Mark Marin]

He just needed some, he just wanted to go with somebody. But this is, you know, the nature of that friendship when it existed. Yeah. Like I was in la. He's like, you want this thing? And I go, yeah, okay, that sounds fun. So I go over to his hotel, Beverly Hilton or something. And then we go to the thing. We go to the premiere, we get out of the car, he walks to the line. He says, you're all set. You've got a ticket. He leaves in the car, I sit and watch that horrible movie.

[Griffin Newman]

He didn't stay for the.

[Mark Marin]

No. But then the car took me back to. I somehow lost my keys and I thought they were in his hotel room. And I can't even remember how that resolved itself because I had to go back to the hotel, get them to go into the room to see if I could find my car keys. And my car was at the hotel.

[David Sims]

God.

[Mark Marin]

How did that resolve itself?

[David Sims]

What about the goy?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. That is like a serious man esque trial of.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. And the most indignity is that, like, I don't remember where, how that resolved itself itself.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Mark Marin]

But I remember it was a horrendous panic. Well, yeah, I got my car, but I don't think I ever found my keys.

[Griffin Newman]

CK is clean shaven in that, and it makes it feel like the movie's a hallucination. I feel like right before the show when he sort of like ascends.

[David Sims]

It's a horrible movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It's always a terrible film, but it feels like watching Henry cavill with the CGI'd out mustache where you're like, this face doesn't move. Right.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Number six of the box office is Whip it, the roller derby movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Really fun, Elliot. True. Barrymore's only directorial effort. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Then you've got Fame, I guess. Is that a remake of Fame?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, big time.

[David Sims]

Okay. And then the Michael Moore movie, Capitalism A Love Story.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. So that was what, up to 250 million domestic at this point?

[David Sims]

Made 4 million.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, interesting.

[David Sims]

And then you got the Soderberg movie the Informant, which is great movie, very good.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And then something called Love happens. What the hell is that?

[Griffin Newman]

That was Aaron Eckard. Jennifer Aniston. I think he plays like a Tony Robbins esque motivational speaker.

[Mark Marin]

Right.

[David Sims]

And she's a florist.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And love happens.

[Griffin Newman]

Love does indeed happen.

[David Sims]

But that's it.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow.

[David Sims]

That's the box office game.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow.

[David Sims]

We're done, Mark. We're good. We're good.

[Mark Marin]

I mean, we'll.

[Griffin Newman]

We'll.

[David Sims]

We'll send you off.

[Griffin Newman]

You have to not to, not to. That's.

[David Sims]

That's his thing. I'm. I try to beat my own.

[Griffin Newman]

Are we allowed to ask you that? What are you. Are we good?

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, we're good. It's great. Yeah, I did. I did realize during this conversation that I am definitely not a math Jew and I definitely do not have the Obsessive attention span of a film nerd Jew.

[Griffin Newman]

And.

[Mark Marin]

And few days, I. I am definitely more a. A mystically bent Jew.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, yes.

[David Sims]

So you're more listening to. To. To Airplane.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

All right.

[David Sims]

All right.

[Mark Marin]

Thanks, guys.

[David Sims]

This drop coming out, it's coming out in a while.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

In. In the fall.

[Mark Marin]

So we all have the special out there.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Is that on hbo?

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, hbo. The special is called Panicked.

[Griffin Newman]

You shot it at Bam, right?

[Mark Marin]

I did. I shot it at the Bam Harvey with the. Yeah, the bad guys is coming out in all August.

[Griffin Newman]

Hell yeah. Can't wait to hear that snake grovel.

[Mark Marin]

We'll see what happens with this feature film that I starred in, an independent called the In Memoriam.

[Griffin Newman]

And then the documentary.

[Mark Marin]

The documentary. Hopefully we'll have a home where you can watch. Are we good?

[David Sims]

In Memoriam is the one that's about the guy who wants to make the Immemorial.

[Mark Marin]

Yes.

[David Sims]

At the Oscars. Right?

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

That's a great premise.

[Mark Marin]

It's funny, you guys. I think. I think I did all right.

[David Sims]

Were you watch that every. Every year and you're like, huh, weird. That guy didn't make it.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Why didn't he chop liver?

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, yeah. There's politics involved.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the thing that people don't know is that, like, you basically don't make it unless someone submits you.

[David Sims]

Right. Someone's got to remember that you died.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Someone's got to make the case.

[David Sims]

They all remember Gene Hackman or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

But, like, never forget. Yeah. Thank you so much for doing this.

[Mark Marin]

Thanks for having me, fellas.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I mean, I.

[David Sims]

It's a real joy. We're. We're huge fan.

[Mark Marin]

Well, I hope I stepped up enough.

[Griffin Newman]

No, absolutely. But it's also. It's one of those things where it's hard to imagine that we would be doing this if you hadn't done what you did, as much as the show is very different.

[Mark Marin]

Well, thank you. I appreciate that, and I'm happy for you guys.

[David Sims]

That's.

[Griffin Newman]

At the end of the day, that's all that matters.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I've been waiting for my dad to say that.

[Mark Marin]

I'm proud of you.

[Griffin Newman]

So long. But it may be more coming from you. Wow. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for being here. Thank you, Brendan, for making this happen, hanging out of the room. Respectfully.

[David Sims]

Enjoy the Natural History Museum.

[Mark Marin]

Yeah, I'm. I'm. I'm looking forward to it.

[David Sims]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate review, subscribe.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

I say that that's A thing I say. Tune in next week for True Grit. Yeah, Their biggest hit.

[David Sims]

That's right. That was their followup. You're right.

[Griffin Newman]

And as always, embrace the mystery. There we go. Mark Marin, serious man on the pod. Long time coming. Very. I was happy with that episode. I was happy with that episode. He's very generous with his time. But then he had to leave because he had to go the Museum of Natural History. He wanted to see the squid and the whale is what he wants to see. He wanted to see that. That's not a bit. That's real. Thank you to Brandon McDonald for making that happen. Total men. Great guy. Well, thank you for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Of course, the full archives blank check archives are available for free wherever you get your podcast. We've talked about Mark Marin a lot in the past. We've stolen a lot of his bits. Most that really originated with our almost famous episode from year two 2016. So here's a little, a little clip of that, our original Marc Maron conversation. If you want to listen to that, you can go back, listen to the.

[Ben Hosley]

Episode.

[Griffin Newman]

Lock the gates.

[David Sims]

Great time.

[Ben Hosley]

Oh, my. Just shit my pants.

[Griffin Newman]

Just coffee dot com.

[David Sims]

God, he says that all the time. Remember when all the podcasts were just wtf? That was like the only podcast.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. That was the only format that people wanted to do. God.

[David Sims]

And then you were like, great. Like two years in, you're like, I've now heard every comedian give an interview, a long form interview. Yeah. To each of the other comedians.

[Ben Hosley]

It got to a point where it's like, so you've been doing open mics for a couple years. Tell me about your process. Like, what, why are you interviewing?

[Griffin Newman]

So how much time you got at this point? You got what, you got 40, you got, you got a tight 20.

[David Sims]

It was one of those things where it's like, you know, you were, is there a saturation point? Like, will they eventually do all the comedians? And then after a couple years you're like, yep, yep, they did it. They did. All the comedians.

[Griffin Newman]

David, let me ask you a question.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Who are you guys? There you go. So there's. There is that. Hope you liked the episode next week. True Grit. Stavros Halkias, the comedian, the rebel rouser, the podcaster, the man, the myth, the legend on the show. Talking True Grit. Good ep. Think you're going to like that one. Lean Montgomery did our music WTF version of the theme. Extra noodle macaroni, linguini. I don't know. I don't know what I'm saying. Okay, catch you all next time.

[Mark Marin]

Bye.

[Griffin Newman]

Boomer lives.

[Ben Hosley]

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley, our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas and our Associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithee, research by JJ Burch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is his minute. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy. Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at Blank checkpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.