Avatar: Fire and Ash

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David

Avatar: Fire and Ash (December 21, 2025)

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Episode Overview

In this lively, several-hour episode, Griffin Newman and David Sims (plus guests Ben Mankiewicz and Marie Mareno) dissect James Cameron's latest behemoth, Avatar: Fire and Ash. Continuing their "decade of dreams" miniseries and their tradition of exhaustive auteurist filmography coverage, the hosts break down what they deem the sexiest, most chaotic, and thematically messy of the three Avatar films. The conversation weaves between detailed plot analysis, Cameron’s career, personal anecdotes, worldbuilding glee, and their recurring awe at how Cameron pulls off “the hottest creature that could ever exist” and massive, all-consuming cinematic universes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Chaos and Holiday Travels

• 00:09–09:47: The episode opens with the hosts swapping horror stories about post-Thanksgiving travel—vomiting children, peeing cats, and seeing which dad had it worse. The section showcases the team’s typical, familial banter and sets up running jokes about resilience, totems, and parenthood.
  • Quote: "Especially if you want to drive three small children to Boston on Thanksgiving weekend, be my guest. ...It was a f***ing nightmare." — David Sims (01:15)

2. James Cameron’s Career & the “Blank Check” Phenomenon

• 09:04–12:24: Transition to Cameron as the ultimate "Blank Check" director, with three films (Titanic, Avatar, Avatar: Way of Water) amongst the all-time box office top five.
  • Quote: “He is also currently the only person with three of the ten highest-grossing films of all time. ...Big Jim Cameron, the deepest director alive, has returned and graced us with another installment.” — Ben Mankiewicz (09:12)

3. Initial Reactions to 'Fire and Ash'

• 12:24–15:18: All hosts adored the new film, immediately noting how overwhelming and difficult Cameron’s Avatar sequels are to process on first viewing, despite their surface-level “simplicity.” They jokingly warn off haters and set expectations: this episode is all about celebrating the film.
  • Quote: “If you don’t like [Avatar], you should just not listen to this episode.” — Ben Mankiewicz (15:18)
• 15:18–19:05: Discussion of the Pandora setting, horny Na’vi, and the meme-ification of the franchise’s sexiness.
  • Memorable moment: General agreement that this is "the sexiest Avatar" and that the Na’vi are now officially "hotter than ever." (16:13–17:24)

4. Ponytail Sex, Avatar Lore, and Consent

• 17:24–18:49: Deep dive into the metaphysics and mechanics of Na’vi ponytail-bonding, drawing a parallel to ‘His Dark Materials’ and the intimacy/violation of the “queue.”
  • Quote: “It’s like… you’re not supposed to do that. That’s like against natural Na’vi law.” — David Sims (18:37)

5. Colonel Quaritch: From Stock Villain to Franchise Keystone

• 19:08–21:26: Huge praise for Stephen Lang’s Miles Quaritch as one of film’s “great” villains, charting his progression from straightforward bad guy to Cameron’s Darth Vader figure.
  • Quote: “And these two sequels, Way of Water and Fire and Ash, explore [the question of a human soul resurrected into a Na’vi body]… That is the thread they explore that is the most fascinating to me.” — David Sims (20:23)

6. Thematic Complexity Beneath 'Broad' Tropes

• 21:26–22:56: Pushback on criticisms that Avatar is “simple” or “broad,” arguing the worldbuilding, hybridization themes, and weirdness elevate it above surface-level readings.

7. Major Plot Developments in 'Fire and Ash'

• 24:01–27:38: The crew tries to organize the plot’s key breakthroughs:
  • Spider becomes a Na’vi/human hybrid, representing a new stage for humans on Pandora (24:17–24:50).
  • Natiri’s growing resentment of Spider, post-family tragedy.
  • The emergence of "bad Na’vi"—clans who reject Eywa (25:43–26:18).
  • Introduction of drugs in the world (27:38–28:45): Quaritch gets high in a trippy, sexy ritual.
    • Quote: “Quaritch gets stoned and [Varang] blows up his nose and then his pony braid hard.” — Ben Mankiewicz (28:09)
    • “And one assumes also his dick hard.” — David Sims (28:13)

8. Structural & Serial Nature of the Sequels

• 29:03–30:47: Fire and Ash is conceptualized as part two of a mid-saga duology, the middle chapter of a trilogy-turned-saga, with Cameron’s ambitions ballooning the story into multiple films.
  • Quote: “What was originally supposed to be the second film… got so unwieldy that it became two films.” — Ben Mankiewicz (30:03)

9. James Cameron’s Longevity and Process

• 33:09–37:14: Candid discussion of interviews with Cameron. He jokes about having 30–40 years left to make movies, his friendships (Guillermo del Toro, Elon Musk), and rational, nuanced takes on AI. Cameron’s production method—years with actors, then years in post—is dissected.
  • Memorable moment: “Best case scenario, what? I only have 30 or 40 years left in me.” — James Cameron, paraphrased by Ben Mankiewicz (33:15)

10. Avatar’s Attitude Toward AI and Digital Production

• 37:22–39:55: Hosts recall the "no AI" pre-film message, Cameron’s nuanced take on generative vs. Skynet-style AI, and his concern that audiences now assume everything is digital or synthetic.
  • Quote: “He was like, there’s generative AI… And he basically was just like, the film industry is collapsing. These movies are getting too expensive…” — Ben Mankiewicz (38:30)

11. Navigating the Plot, Big Set Pieces, and World Elements

• 40:14–47:00: Attempts to summarize the sprawling narrative:
  • How the “simple” structure belies dense character, ecological, and political subplots.
  • Jake's arc is somewhat sidelined for Lo'ak’s narration and for focus on Spider’s existential journey (44:05–46:08).
  • Multiple characters' arcs and shifting perspectives build toward an emotionally fragmented center.

12. Avatar's Political/Ecological Allegory, Worldbuilding, and Human Villains

• 55:58–63:48:
  • Anti-human stance: “One of the most incredible things about this franchise is how firmly anti-human it is.” — Ben Mankiewicz (61:21)
  • Expanded worldbuilding: the three laws of Eywa, why the Na’vi eschew stone, wheels, and metals, and how each tribal group relates to their environment (56:34–57:58).

13. Humans as Villains, Expansion Toward Earth, and Broader Context

• 63:54–67:53:
  • The reputation of Jake Sully as an “Edward Snowden” or “Benedict Arnold” figure.
  • Cameron's reflected belief that we should "save Earth" rather than colonize other planets (66:00–67:44).

14. Appeal, Worldbuilding, and the Mythic/Biblical Epic Quality

• 81:02–84:45: The hosts liken Cameron’s Avatar saga to classic biblical and epic cinema, noting his preference for simple, elemental stories bolstered by “insane,” original worldbuilding.
  • Quote: “[Cameron’s] making insane original sci fi versions of what used to be the biblical epic.” — Ben Mankiewicz (83:07)

15. Grief, Loss, and Real-World Parallels

• 84:28–86:06: The death of John Landau (longtime Cameron collaborator) and real-world tragedies (Titan sub disaster) breed a deeper meditation on grief in the film. The theme of losing a brother/family member is especially resonant.

16. Vivid Tangents and Running Jokes

• 87:00–92:00: Wild digressions about toys, parenting, Swarm/Red Hulk, and Spidey-dinosaur LEGOs serve as comedy breaks and insight into the hosts’ personal lives.

17. Varang and “Bad Na’vi”: New Franchise Icons

• 103:03–114:43: Detailed discussion of the new antagonist Varang (played by Una Chaplin), the design of the Ash people, the “Joker and Harley Quinn” dynamic of Varang and Quaritch, and the intensity of their mutual attraction.
  • Quote: “Quaritch and Varang are now officially my Joker and Harley Quinn.” — Ben Mankiewicz (110:54)
• Exploration of what makes Varang compelling: her rule-breaking, punk energy, and the cultural implications of Na’vi who fall outside Eywa’s influence.

18. Spider: The Divisive Key to the Movie

• 119:14–121:36: The trio discuss Spider’s arc and Jack Champion’s performance, with ambivalence about the character acting as both a narrative lynchpin and an audience surrogate.

19. Payakan, Whale Stuff, and the Tulkun's Role

• 124:00–126:08: The role of Payakan, the pariah Tulkun, in catalyzing Na’vi resistance and representing “outcast” strength in the face of pacifist cultural norms.

20. Narrative Choices, Character Arcs, and Open Endings

• 125:29–153:32: The hosts debate whether the lack of a definitive conclusion is a feature or flaw—seeing the middle-entry messiness as a byproduct of Cameron’s ambition. Avatars' evolving approach to serial storytelling, cut comic material, and the ongoing dilemma of Cameron’s timeline are explored.

21. Box Office Prognostication & the State of the Blockbuster

• 157:19–161:01: With a winking look at real and invented 2025 blockbusters, they predict Fire and Ash’s box office fate, its competition with other holiday films, and bemoan “holiday squeeze” scheduling.

22. Final Thoughts and Fandom Reflections

• 142:47–149:11: Despite its craziness, the hosts love the Avatar world, savoring Cameron’s “all-you-can-eat buffet” and likening the franchise to the Rainforest Café: “You’re either in, or you’re not.”

  • Quote: “I like everything they make at this restaurant. And if you don't like this restaurant...it’s your fault for going through the door.” — Ben Mankiewicz (142:03)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Quaritch’s Arc:
  “It’s so much weirder when people knock these movies for being broad and simplistic... that’s the foundation. And then on top of that, James Cameron does the weirdest shit in the world.”
  — Ben Mankiewicz (20:23)

• On Avatar as Anti-Human:
  “One of the most incredible things about this franchise is how firmly anti-human it is.”
  — Ben Mankiewicz (61:21)

• On Ponytail Sex, Consent, and New Lore:
  “This movie really explores new territory in terms of pony braid fucking... both consensual and non-consensual.”
  — Ben Mankiewicz (17:42)

• On Cameron’s Process and Persona:
  “Best case scenario, what? I only have 30 or 40 years left in me. That’s a good case scenario, my friend.”
  — as recalled by Ben Mankiewicz (33:15)

• On Avatar’s Serial Structure:
  “What was originally supposed to be the second film in his planned trilogy got so unwieldy that it became two films.”
  — Ben Mankiewicz (30:03)

• On Fandom and Franchise Worldbuilding:
  “People like, it’s the thing that happens every time an Avatar movie comes out where they're like, that looks dumb. Then they go see it and they're like, leaning forward in their seat, and then six months later, they're like, that sucks.”
  — Ben Mankiewicz (81:43)

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Episode Segments (Selected Timestamps)

• 00:09–09:47: Banter, travel woes, and introduction.
• 09:47–12:24: James Cameron’s blank check status.
• 12:24–15:18: First reactions to Fire and Ash, warning off naysayers.
• 17:24–19:05: Ponytail sex, worldbuilding, consent.
• 20:23–22:56: Quaritch as the franchise’s Darth Vader.
• 27:38–28:45: The “drugs” sequence, Quaritch gets high.
• 29:03–30:47: Film structure and middle-chapter status.
• 33:15: Cameron’s “I have 30–40 years left” interview moment.
• 61:21: Discussion of how anti-human the series is.
• 119:14–121:36: Spider's arc and performance.
• 125:29–153:32: Serial structure, comics tie-ins, the future of the franchise.
• 157:19–161:01: Predictions for box office and 2025 movie landscape.
• 142:03: The Rainforest Cafe/Avatar restaurant metaphor.
• 166:36–167:54: Announcements of upcoming miniseries (Lynne Ramsay & Peter Weir) and sign off.

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Conclusion

The episode is both an exuberant celebration and serious defense of James Cameron's deeply ambitious, weird, and unwieldy Avatar universe. The hosts underscore that, for all its bloat and wild tonal swings, Fire and Ash raises the bar for blockbuster invention, worldbuilding, and emotional throughlines, even as it loses some control. The film’s serialized structure, ecological/genealogical themes, the introduction of new villain Varang, and the increasingly transgressive, sexy, and anti-human tone are dissected with loving precision.

For fans of Blank Check, Cameron, or blockbuster cinema at large, this episode is an essential, entertaining listen—so long as you don’t mind hearing the phrase “pony braid fucking” and wrestling with the “totemic” debates (soon to be retired in 2026).

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Select Closing Quotes

• "Thank you all. For riding with us. Our clan. This podcast is a fortress." — Ben Mankiewicz (167:02)
• “I think you have to admit, a pretty potent podcast.” — Ben Mankiewicz (169:44)
• "Oh, no shit. No shit." — David Sims/Ben Mankiewicz (169:50)

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End of 2025. See you in 2026!

Transcript

[David Sims]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Blank check with Griffin and David.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Don't know what to say or to expect.

[David Sims]

All you need to know is that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The name of the shadow is Blackjack. Your podcast has no dominion. He here now. Imagine when you hear me say that. Imagine I'm the hottest creature to ever exist.

[Marie Mareno]

I am so turned on right now.

[David Sims]

You are the hottest creature to ever exist, Newman.

[Marie Mareno]

No.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Can I say David is warm today. He's cozy, he's been cuddly, he's been warm.

[David Sims]

That's so funny because I'm like, I got to get out of here. In two and a half hours, David's.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Hearing a crying baby in the hallway and it's triggering 20 things in him.

[David Sims]

And I am coming off a. A Thanksgiving week travel and stress. That is a blood curdling tale that I cannot share.

[Marie Mareno]

Somewhere.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

Why?

[David Sims]

Why? Why? I don't know. I have family and I love them.

[Marie Mareno]

But it's a great question come to you.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Traveling to see family caused you stress.

[David Sims]

Especially if you want to drive three small children to Boston on Thanksgiving weekend, be my guest. Come back, huh? What was your travel day back? Saturday. Okay. Not as bad as Sunday. That's when I came back from New England and it was a fucking nightmare.

[Marie Mareno]

Ben has you beat.

[David Sims]

No, he doesn't because. No, he doesn't. No, he doesn't because. You don't know what happened to me.

[Marie Mareno]

You know what happened to Ben.

[David Sims]

No. What happened to Ben compare to your stories? Did you get shot with a gun and die? I'm still here, so I'm pretty sure I have you beat. But go right ahead, please.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Okay, well, Ben and David have both taken out duel.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I want to hear it. I want to hear it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Flaming sabers.

[David Sims]

I want to hear it. Okay, so I went up to my in laws. Yes, you did. Up in New England.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And I brought my cat, my Lovely Cat, my 17 year old cat, pig. On the ride home, unfortunately, about an hour and a half in, pig peed on me. She peed in her case on my leg. Yeah. And then the ride all in all took seven hours. Yeah. Nice long ride of soaked in pee. I have you beat so bad, dad. You're about to run out of here blushing.

[Marie Mareno]

Were you shot with a gun in.

[David Sims]

His mouth Friday night? Oh my God. David is bleeding Friday night. So the night before we have to travel, right? So I've been a. One of my twins starts barfing in the middle of the night. Get him up, you know, throws up, you know, 50 times. Then the other One starts barfing, I'm holding the other one. Barfing.

[Marie Mareno]

Why did you still go?

[David Sims]

No, no, no. Friday night, we've. We're there.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Oh, you're already there.

[David Sims]

We're there.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's the day after Thanksgiving.

[David Sims]

It's the day after Thanksgiving. I'm not in my home, I'm in someone else's home. No gu. What's happening while the second child is barfing? And it's really, it's. I'm not like, it sucks when a baby's barfing cuz they hate it and they don't know what's going on and.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You feel really bad for them. Can I take a guess?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Your oldest child starts barfing. Nope.

[Marie Mareno]

Does someone start.

[David Sims]

Nope. Well, I mean, probably.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Does Ben's cat, Pig pee on you?

[David Sims]

No.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I start barfing, you start barfing.

[David Sims]

And it was this moment where my wife is in the bathroom with me again. Not our bathroom. My poor cousin's bathroom. And we're staying, you know, with them. And I'm like, I think you gotta get out of here for a sec. You just.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And she's like, what? I'm like, are you holding a barking baby? I'm holding one of them, she's holding the other.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And she's like, okay, I throw up a bunch. Then she comes and she's like, I'm so sorry. And I'm like, it's okay. Not my first rodeo. And then I drove back.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Can we get.

[David Sims]

The next morning, my stomach seizing up. No coffee, no food, through five and a half hours of like traffic from Boston to New York. You did take a shower my cat peed on, which God bless. That sounds annoying. It sucked. I mean, I did get to pull over and change my leg off. I was just driving, like. I mean, people have said to me, like, wait, what? Like, how did you draw? And I'm like, I don't know. I just went into like, you know, fugue state.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Can I ask a couple follow up?

[David Sims]

Like, what does Varang do to. You know, I go into Varang brain. Yes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The world's biggest pin on the board about Varang. We're going to get back to Varang and we're going to talk about Varang so much. But I just want to clarify. You're holding a baby. Let's say Rocksteady.

[David Sims]

I always forget which is supposed to be which, but I think I was holding Bebop.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I bought them big plush Bebop and rock steady heads. And each one is pitch picked. One Naturally.

[David Sims]

I believe I was holding Bebop.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's the progressive way to raise children is you let them self identify as.

[David Sims]

A Bebop or their turtle villain of choice.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Okay, so you're holding Bebop.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I think so.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Your wife is holding Rocksteady.

[David Sims]

That's right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They are vomiting onto your bodies.

[Marie Mareno]

Sure.

[David Sims]

I mean, you know, it's baby vomit. So. Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Towel on the shoulder.

[David Sims]

Like, whatever you can get. We have paper towels.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Then you start feeling sick.

[David Sims]

This was really rough, by the way. It was very traumatic. Yes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You start feeling sick. Do you hand Bebop to Forky?

[David Sims]

No. How could I? She had baby.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So where are you puking into a toilet.

[David Sims]

Toilet.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So you walk to the bathroom holding Bebop.

[David Sims]

I was sitting in there already, luckily, because, you know, they were already sort of gross. So we kind of needed.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And where's the boss baby during all of this?

[David Sims]

Boss baby, thank the Lord, was sleeping with her cousins upstairs. Fun, because she saw that her cousins all sleep in a room together.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

We need to code name the cousins as well.

[David Sims]

And was like, I want to sleep with them. And we were like, you sure? Like, you know, you won't be near us. You're going to be upset. And she was like, yes. And thank God she made that decision.

[Marie Mareno]

So independent of her.

[David Sims]

It was.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It was awesome.

[David Sims]

We were proud of her too. I was feeling so great until around 1 in the morning.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

How many. How many cousins are there?

[David Sims]

So I have two cousins in Boston. My. My lovely cousins, who I love so much and I grew up with. And between all of us, there's eight children.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

We all have a Christ.

[David Sims]

So they, you know, one has three, one has two, and I have three.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Okay, so Huey, Dewey, Louie is like one and Chippendale, then the other two.

[David Sims]

Yeah, let's do that. The crazy thing is that I drove back, but it was just one of those things where it was like, we have to get home, but you weren't.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Caked in the vomit. This was the next day.

[David Sims]

I had showered.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I just want to. I worry about you.

[Marie Mareno]

Is this like a food poisoning scenario?

[David Sims]

Initially, I thought it was, but then a couple of days later, my daughter barfed. So it was like, now this is just like a bug, you know?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Do you know what it sounds like to me? Yeah, it sounds.

[David Sims]

At least she did that in my home where I have laundry and services.

[Marie Mareno]

You felt safe.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Do you know what it sounds like to me? It sounds like your whole family came down with a brutal case of Avatar fever. So true.

[David Sims]

As I was throwing up, I Was like, I can't wait to see Varang. David Thewlis guy is Joel David Moore gonna be back?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Your vomit has no dominion here.

[David Sims]

So, David, I'm gonna put down whatever the fuck that weapon is that you referenced.

[Marie Mareno]

You're gonna kneel. You need to kneel.

[David Sims]

I texted some other parents. It's all right.

[Marie Mareno]

You're Taruk Makto.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You are.

[David Sims]

I was just like, this is like tier parent nonsense that this is like this a story that will be told when they're far older.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Much like versus like the usual. Like, oh, you got a stomach bug and it sucked. Like.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

No, it's. It's the saga of the Sully family. These. These stories will be passed down from clan to clan, generation to generation. These are important.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Dare I say it? Because we're rounding out the urine. I'm committed to the retirement of this totemic stories.

[David Sims]

I was doing a totem sign. Marie.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'm calling the shot. 2026. Totemic retired.

[David Sims]

Are there any others?

[Marie Mareno]

Are you just retiring it because mean people on the Reddit called you out on it or.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Excuse me, nothing mean has ever been said on the Reddit. I never read it. And it doesn't live in my head.

[David Sims]

It's definitely not affected my emotions ever.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

No, I checked. I checked my head recently. No tenants empty.

[David Sims]

Landlords opening pockets, moths flying out.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's weirdly unoccupied, and yet I am receiving rent. It's the opposite of living in my head. Rent free.

[David Sims]

What's this podcast called?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

This podcast is called Blank Check with Griffin. David. I'm Griffin.

[David Sims]

I'm David.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's a podcast about filmographies and vomit. Sometimes directors who have massive success early on in their careers, for example, making the Terminator, Terminator 2, Titanic, Avatar, Titanic, everything. Okay. Avatar, Way of Water. Also True Lies in the abyss.

[Marie Mareno]

They did include True Lies in the original Avatar trailer.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Oh yes, they really? Well, because they were like, we need to remind people how many things he made that they like because everyone is has their knives out Benoit Blanc style for this fucking movie. Arguably the most successful filmmaker of all time, certainly relative to how few movies he is actually the thing.

[David Sims]

Like you might have the Spielbergs of the world who put up more quantity and so. But. But Cameron's per game average is pretty high.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He is also currently the only person with 3 of the 10 highest grossing films of all time. If not 3 of the 5. He's 3 of the 10.

[David Sims]

I can look it up.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I mean, he. He for over a decade held the Record of the highest grossing film in history and then dethroned himself. We've read himself Big Jim Cameron, the deepest director alive, has returned and graced us with another installment of the Avatar saga, the ongoing story of the Sully clan. Avatar, Fire and Ash.

[David Sims]

He has three of the top five.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Okay, yeah.

[David Sims]

Avatar, Avatar, Wave, Water, and Titanic are all in the top five, along with your two other favorite films, avengers, Endgame, and Nezha 2.

[Marie Mareno]

Did you see Nezh 2, Griffin?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I tried to watch Neja 1.

[David Sims]

I was told that you shouldn't do that by people who saw maybe kind.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Of a rookie mistake where they were.

[David Sims]

Like, I think you can skip it. Like, I think you can just go right into Nezha 2.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I was. I was struggling, and I'm not even saying this in like, a pejorative, quantitative way. I was just like, this is just. This is something I don't understand.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Which is, I think, sometimes a humbling and useful experience for people to have of, like. Right. I. I cannot touch every piece of culture. Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I've heard my. My. My little cousin. The off reference. George's younger sister is obsessed with Nija, too, which makes sense because she's got big Nisha.

[David Sims]

Because it's a little girl who has like a. A stick or something.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's a.

[David Sims]

Is it a boy? I haven't seen boy.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It is a boy, but it just.

[David Sims]

Seen a little cartoon of a person.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's a little demon they try to teach to be good.

[David Sims]

Oh, well, wait a second. This sounds kind of cute.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I got to give another go. Look, here's the important part. Yeah. Fire and Ash in this economy. Oh, it is a little boy in one movie.

[David Sims]

It's a popular mythological character. Yes. Well, we've got this film. What's it called? Avatar Fire.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Avatar, colon, Fire and Ash.

[David Sims]

It is James Cameron's 10th movie.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's crazy that it's 12.

[David Sims]

If you include the two docs, I guess.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Okay. Yeah, but we're. I mean, I guess he discounts Piranha two, the spawning.

[David Sims]

Well, then he's down to nine.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

Why doesn't he count that?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Because he says he got fired.

[David Sims]

Fired? And like, I was gonna. Does the new Billie Eilish one count.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Are you covering.

[Marie Mareno]

Are we gonna cover it? Because he is directing it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That might be some really real Patreon.

[David Sims]

I think that's some Patreon. What is this process? He directed a. Like a tour documentary, like a concert movie for Billy Eilish that's coming out Next year.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

David, I must correct.

[David Sims]

He co directed it with Billy Eilish.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

Who's also in the editing room with him. She's like learning on the job.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And his editing room is 10ft, 10 miles down.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's really into Billy Eilish, but not.

[Marie Mareno]

In a creepy way, I don't think.

[David Sims]

Just because his kids like Billy Eilish or whatever.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

J. Okay, let. Let me just finish. Let me just say we did a series many years ago early in our show's run called Podinator 2, judgment cast that ended with Avatar. Three years ago, we were able to return to Pandora to talk about Avatar Way of Water, a movie that as. As you coined the term on this film, owns bones.

[David Sims]

Sure does.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

As I recently said on Letterbox makes me come buckets.

[Marie Mareno]

Ew. You said that before seeing Fire and Ash.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

Because that. This is the sexiest of the three in my.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It is the sexiest. And the one.

[David Sims]

I don't think that's disputable. Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

This movie certainly the most.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I. I saw the Way Water re release, whatever it was two months ago. That movie has only grown for me in the last three years. Basically think it's perfect now.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah. I re. Listened to our episode this weekend.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

And I was like, what am I complaining about?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

There was some still processing stuff. Let's call it out in advance. All four of us, I think, like, loved this movie. Had a great time watching it.

[David Sims]

Absolutely.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But also you saw it slightly earlier in the day. Marie Barty, Party Salinas producer, Ben Hosley. Three of us saw it together, walked out. We're like, thumbs up. Also, how the fuck are we going to talk about this thing? It. These movies are hard to process on one viewing for how much everyone likes to say they're so simple.

[David Sims]

It's just Fern gully in space.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

David. I've never heard that before. That is such an original, clever, achingly funny thought.

[David Sims]

I am making my fun. You guys aching right now?

[Marie Mareno]

I am actually.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. This is a tough movie to talk about. I walked out of it. I'm like, I think that's. I think Way of Water is the best now. Even though when we recorded our Way of Water episode, I was like, the first one's better, but this one rules now. I'm like, Way of Water's clearly.

[David Sims]

Obviously, Way of Water is just one of those, like, yeah, take me there any day of the week. I love it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And this feels like third in, you know, a competition between three golden movies. And yet I'm like, am I gonna watch this 10 more times and think it's perfect.

[Marie Mareno]

There. There are silly things in this movie that I'm like. I can't say and be like, yeah, that was dumb. That was silly.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

There's stuff in it. There's things that feel like minor missteps. It also feels like the messiest of the three of them in a way that for me, I'm like, it's overflowing with ideas.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They're not always organized perfectly.

[Marie Mareno]

I think I said this maybe on our trap episode some like, it happens a lot with Avatar or with Shyamalan where people.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Here's the disclaimer. We're going to point to the sign.

[Marie Mareno]

How do you think these movies are good? They are objectively bad.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And I think you're lying.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, we're not like, here's the thing with these movies. I don't care. I don't care that like certain that there's complicated or whatever. Like, I do not care. The entire movie. I was sitting right by Griffin Newman. I saw you lean Forward in your 20 times.

[David Sims]

I would. That was me. I was. I was not with you guys. But that was.

[Marie Mareno]

I had my hands gas like.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

To my face. My love to be there gape. I was just. I was enjoying it.

[David Sims]

If you don't like so good, you.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Should just not listen this episode because we're gonna talk about everything.

[David Sims]

Okay. Let's all stop getting mad at imaginary people.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's why I'm getting that out of the way so we can stop. Like straw man.

[David Sims]

This is my thing. It's just like what you guys are talking. I'm just like, I'm in Pandora. I'm so happy to be here when they go to the Edie Falco base where it's just a bunch of grumpy humans. Even then I'm like, ah, it's nice to be here.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Digital.

[David Sims]

What's going on? Ye weird.

[Marie Mareno]

Their weird phones, everyone. Do they have social media on the. On the fucking army base?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So many questions of Giovanni Ribisi's character.

[David Sims]

The son of the chairman that he's a nipple. I mean, he had that animal who's.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

His dad's dad in the fourth one.

[David Sims]

We better.

[Marie Mareno]

Who is his dad?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That line gets thrown out. I'm like, oh, my God, who the fuck are they gonna cast?

[David Sims]

Ben? What did you want to say? I just felt like I wanted to reach out the whole time. Yeah, well, that's what he's trying to get you to do.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah. I want to reach out and touch Varang.

[David Sims]

Wait a second.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It is Astounding how good this movie looks. And it's astounding that James Cameron, after, you know, hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars of R and D groundbreaking technology, combined with disciplined, focused, heartfelt storytelling, has finally cracked the code on creating the hottest creature that could ever fucking possibly exist.

[David Sims]

Hottest, mean, na' ving rul.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

My world. It's one of those things, guys.

[David Sims]

So first she has to learn about capitalism, and then she.

[Marie Mareno]

She would love it.

[David Sims]

I know, I know. That was. That was sort of my joke. But it's so funny that, like, the two Avatar movies came out and they have romance and sex in them, you know, but it's blue aliens and everyone's like, a little, like, chuckling at it.

[Marie Mareno]

My main complaint about Way of Water was that there wasn't enough romance.

[David Sims]

It's a lot of face stroking and I.

[Marie Mareno]

Family stuff.

[David Sims]

And I'm like, okay, well, I finally know.

[Marie Mareno]

But like, but, yes, but.

[David Sims]

But, you know, but you learn about people being like, I'm. I'm horny for Navi. And you're like, oh, okay, that's insane. But okay. And then you watch this one, you're like, well, now we're all horny for Navi.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I get it now.

[David Sims]

Excuse me.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I came correct for this episode. I did purchase the world of Avatar visual exploration, because I want to try to get some of this terminology correct, but I feel like there's a moment in the movie, because this movie really explores new territory in terms of pony braid. Fucking.

[Marie Mareno]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Both consensual and non. Consensual.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

I was wondering, is it. Is it considered assault?

[David Sims]

I think so.

[Marie Mareno]

Forcefully combine your.

[David Sims]

If we're just going to be jumping all over the place. So in the. The. His Dark Material series, you know, those. They have. Everyone has their demon, which is like a little.

[Marie Mareno]

I've never read it.

[David Sims]

In His Dark Materials in. In the world that they're largely set in humans souls or whatever sort of. It's. The best way to describe is their souls is animated as a. As a creature that lives alongside them they can talk to. Right. It's called your demon. And nobody is allowed to touch anyone else's. And there's a moment late in the first book when suddenly the kids, like, people start grabbing their demons, and it's like such a deep violation. And you're so in. In the book, you're reading this and you're like, you know, you can't believe this. And that's what her doing the braid, you know, assault felt like where it's like, you're not supposed to do that. That's like against natural Na' Vi law.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right?

[David Sims]

It's like, you can't just be, you know, us being into people.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And the most fascinating thing is that corpse is like, I think I like this a lot. Wow.

[David Sims]

We ain't in Kansas anymore.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's a potent mix. It sounds like Foghorn Leghorn. It is kind of what it sounds like. I say, I say.

[David Sims]

This, this mix is an episode. We're going to talk about Avatar Fire Nation. We're just going to talk about that because there's lots to talk about.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Still processing thoughts for a movie that made us all shear.

[David Sims]

The Stephen Lang character of Miles Quaritch.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

One of the greatest, is one of.

[David Sims]

The great characters in movies.

[Marie Mareno]

Fascinating arc.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He was so much fun in the original film.

[David Sims]

I love him in the original film. You're like, great. He's doing what's on what he's being asked. He's being a hard as nails evil general guy.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And he's serving it up tenderly chewing the scenery.

[David Sims]

Exactly.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Skillfully. And then Cameron announces he's going to be the villain for all of them. He's Darth Vader. And I immediately went, he is that a little uninspired, a little silly, right?

[David Sims]

Like, we're going to think of something better.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Life. And it's all going to be him.

[David Sims]

And they're like, no, no, no, no. The implications of Avatar Technology is that you could be a soldier who lived to kill. Navi dies at their hand, and then one day is reborn in the body of your enemy, but with the. The human hatred of Navi coded in. What would that be like? And I think these two sequels, Way of Water and Fire and Ash, Explore. That is the thread they explore that is the most fascinating to me is like. And it's like, yeah, okay. You can, you know, people will be like, oh, no, wait, come on. It's obvious. Like, he starts out villain. He becomes sort of an anti hero. You know, he. He has this dark version of the Jake Sully journey. But it's weirder than that. It's so interesting.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's so much weirder when people knock these movies for being broad and simplistic and like hitting these tropes of a thousand stories they've heard before. It's like, that's the foundation. And then on top of that, James Cameron does the weirdest shit in the world. There is stuff in this movie that is so strange. And Colonel Miles Quaritch, it's the opposite of. Of the great Norm MacDonald joke about Adolf Hitler. The more I learn about this guy, the more I like him.

[David Sims]

Miles Quaritch.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, normac. Donald's Adolf Hitler joke is I've been reading about this Hitler fella and I gotta tell you, the more I read about him, the less I. But Quartz, I'm just like, I'm not saying, I'm not saying I support all of his actions. Sure.

[David Sims]

You do not in fact have to hand it to him.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But I am fascinated by everything going on in this guy.

[Marie Mareno]

Well, it is, it is interesting because we get the kind in this movie, we get the like inverse of the Jake and Neytiri love story, but like dark sided.

[David Sims]

Like he's brought over, he's brought closer to Na' Vi culture, but by someone who's rejected it.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

What also amuses me is that there are the other grunts who also became Avatar in Navi and they're just like, yeah, I just want to like wear sunglasses and like drink beer. Like they have no interest in engaging with the culture.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Like, can we just shoot him? Isn't our job to shoot Jake Sully in a minute. It's like the guy's like, Jesus Christ.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'm trying to find the name of it. Because they throw it out in this. When they discover that in saving his life, they have now given Spider his own connection port in the back of his head. Yeah, yeah, sure. And there's a term they throw out when they find.

[David Sims]

Oh, for what it's called. What's the braid called in Avatar.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes, but. But specifically the little squishy part.

[David Sims]

It's called sahel. You.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But is there another term they use there?

[David Sims]

They called it a queue. What else they call. I don't know.

[Marie Mareno]

Wait, so Spider gets. Yeah, dude, little braid, you didn't notice? No, I know he got the braid, but I thought he got the braid as part of Grace.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Marie Mareno]

You said he got the braid because he saved.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

No, but in saving him, Spider was gifted.

[Marie Mareno]

Spider?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[Marie Mareno]

Oh, I thought you meant because Spider saves Quaritch at the end of the movie.

[David Sims]

No.

[Marie Mareno]

And so I was like. I didn't correct that at all.

[David Sims]

Such a cool like world buildingy kind of thing where mushroom spores. Yeah, right. And are able to then rework his biology. It's like a fungusy thing of some sort. But I kind of like how it's not even that preposterous. Like it is a thing that could maybe be real.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Theory is Team God.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The mother tree impregnated the avatar. The dead avatar body of Dr. Grace Augustine.

[David Sims]

Any questions?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Planted the seed. Yeah, it's sort of Avatar body was the seed bearer and she is the seed. Seed that was born.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's an Anakin Skywalker situation. Like her mom is the Force.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[David Sims]

You know, it's like Anakin, you know, the Force in Star wars is very similar to AA in that it's like, well, what is it? It's like, well, it's an energy thing that's basically just all consciousness.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[David Sims]

And AWA is sort of what I like about awa. What I like. You're hearing a lot of things about.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Awa and I gotta say, the more I read about her, the more I.

[David Sims]

Like her, is that yes, she's there, she's their Gaia goddess. And you can think about it however you want, but the way the scientists talk about her in the first movie where they're like. It's just everyone's memories getting plugged in to a natural network that then is like this collective of all their memories.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But also in this movie, you see.

[David Sims]

That she's got a big fucking head. Well, that's a representation of her Griffin.

[Marie Mareno]

We just, can we just walk through all of the like major developments in this movie. We see a. What has a. Was a big white head. Spider can breathe.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, Spider is converted. He becomes basically the first hybrid. Yeah, by being saved by God.

[David Sims]

Well, it's kind of like the first evolutionary leap that gets made happens in the first Avatar movie, which is like they grow these unnatural Na' Vi bodies, host bodies, and those, you know, can get integrated. Right. Like Jake gets integrated.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You can do a short term stint.

[David Sims]

Spider is now the next stage where it's like now we can actually bring a human to Pandora and integrate them.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, there's another thing too let's. There's a step in between, which is the half breeds. You have Jake Sully fully.

[David Sims]

That's what I was saying.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's what I was saying. And then he's. Then he has these children, right?

[David Sims]

Mutant children with five fingers on their hands.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The, the sky people, the pink people.

[Marie Mareno]

Did they say pink people in any of the previous movies? Because I didn't remember that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I don't know. I need to re watch them all every day for the rest of my life.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Do they say pink people? That was kind of a new one. Kind of like toasters and Battlestar Galactic. I love fake slurs.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. I just like that there's been this ticking time bomb within Natiri.

[David Sims]

Well, but it's in the second one. It's just after, after her son dies she can go full wrong. Kid died.

[Marie Mareno]

Yes.

[David Sims]

You know, after her son's dead, she's like, why do I have to look at Spider all the time? I tolerated this.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Trump's got reelected. Now she feels comfortable saying the words again. I'm sorry.

[David Sims]

Okay, so you wanted to talk about major revelations.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. Major breakthroughs. Right?

[Marie Mareno]

Yes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

There are bad navi.

[Marie Mareno]

Yes. Outcast clans who don't believe in awa.

[David Sims]

That was what I liked.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I initially was worried that they would just kind of be like, well, our thing is this. And it's like, no, no, no. These are navi who have left the sort of navi way. Like, I like this. They got smited. Yeah, they did. Hey, they got reasons to be grumpy.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

They got fired. Maybe move away from the volcano. Like, my only thing in Avatar is like, why doesn't everyone live in the COVID I'm like, this is a great place to live. Really, really nice.

[Marie Mareno]

It really is nice. But I feel like most people, they haven't developed the, like.

[David Sims]

Yeah. They haven't evolved the water skills, so.

[Marie Mareno]

They just don't have. They're not really. They can't really, like, get into the water shit as much as the met.

[David Sims]

You're right. You're right. So I've got a question for all the gamers out there. Are you seriously gonna miss out on one of Alienware's biggest gaming sales of the year? I mean, these are holiday prices we're talking about, so it's not, quote, just another sale. I took a look, and this is some pretty big bang for your buck. You know, it's Alienware with some of the most advanced engineering out there with systems at the top of reviewers list. And what about a gift for yourself? Gift yourself a new Alienware 16 Area 51 gaming laptop. I mean, this thing's got performance to the absolute next level with Intel Core Ultra processors. And even better, you can get it before the holidays. Plus, you can save on all kinds of displays and accessories, like the Alienware 32.4K QD OLED gaming monitor for ultimate visual fidelity. These really are incredible deals on PCs with otherworldly performance. So I'd visit alienware.com deals soon and grab what you can before it's too late. Okay, Another major development. Drugs.

[Marie Mareno]

Drugs, sure.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

What do we.

[David Sims]

What do we think the substance is?

[Marie Mareno]

Ayahuasca.

[David Sims]

Some kind.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I agree.

[David Sims]

Kind. It's like they're finding some natural herb or whatever.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

This is the headline for this movie, and I hope no one listening to this has yet to see the Film. I. I hope you're not learning this from the podcast, but Quaritch gets stoned and courage does. So our she blows up his nose and then his pony braid hard.

[David Sims]

These are all things that we text and one assumes also his dick hard. Although we don't see.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And let me say this drugs and pony braid fucking so potent.

[Marie Mareno]

What? My first text to David after we got out of the film, because David saw it before us, was Quaritch Fox. Quaritch Fox all caps and you said all caps. And does space drugs.

[David Sims]

Does do space drugs. I mean, I know it's Pandoran drugs, but.

[Marie Mareno]

And does space.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She like blows Na' Vi cocaine up his nose from a dark Wolf of Wall street style.

[Marie Mareno]

I thought that was going to be a dildo.

[David Sims]

Yeah, right. You thought that she was going to introduce pegging.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It might get there. It might get there. Right.

[David Sims]

And I was like, right, got to save something for Avatar.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Four moves to cover at least.

[David Sims]

What are some other things? So, so Fire and Ash. It's a, it's, it's. It's a straight sequel to Way of Water in a way that Way of Water is not to Avatar.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[David Sims]

It is very much part two of a two part story. It's in a lot of the same environments. It's got mostly the same ensemble.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

What I think has become very clear, and he's basically cop to this as.

[David Sims]

Well, is this was one movie.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[David Sims]

That he broke into two.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right. Avatar comes out in 2009, 2010. Avatar 2 and 3 are announced. Originally announced for 2014 and 2015.

[David Sims]

That's when they came out.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So this movie is coming out fully 10 years after the original announced release date. Right. Then 2013 delayed, but fourth film added, 2016 delays, fifth film added. In that time he establishes a writer's room. They start breaking story. He's got this whole notion of I. I want these to tell a larger saga, but I also want the films to have their own inherent concerns. What's become clear with Distance is what was originally supposed to be the second film in his planned trilogy got so unwieldy that it became two films. It's the George plan to be his third film broke into two. So Way of Water and Fire and Ash are the middle chapter. It's a two part middle chapter. He is now once again threatening us with who knows if I'll actually make.

[David Sims]

I'm retired. Who knows?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Exactly.

[David Sims]

I don't know. I'm not thinking about Avatar 4. Am I thinking about fact? Stacks of cash maybe Wave Water definitely.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ended with A lot of, like, here we go. Like, there's stuff we're going to jump right back into. This movie does not have, like, crazy dangling threads, but it also does not feel like a resolution at all, which I think will. Will.

[David Sims]

Will drive some people crazy. I think it's not quite a right. It's not quite a definitive enough conclusion. Maybe I went in expecting, like, Jake's gonna die. There will be some kind of capper here.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Then as I'm watching it, 4 and 5 are really different, really weird, and people won't believe, like, how much of.

[David Sims]

A left car is racing. It's just. You know how George Lucas would talk about his experimental movies.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Talk.

[David Sims]

It's just cells, you know, windshields.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They have tongues and mouths.

[David Sims]

It is so crazy. They have tongues in cars.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You know, like, I. I was like, right, they'll be. And then I was watching this movie while they're still grappling with the death of their son, and I immediately was like, no, Jake's not dying. Nir's not. That's not what this is. And instead, the big thing that happens in this movie is, like, Jake and Neytiri and Loa and Kiri and all Spider. Well, they all make these sort of evolutionary leaps in their thinking. Spider being kind of crucial to all of them. This movie is really about Spider in a way that I maybe should have seen coming, because he is the character where you're like, why are they doing this? And then you're like, right. I guess they're doing this because this is sort of the crux of it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You don't put them on the table for no reason. There's intense.

[David Sims]

You're not just. I mean, the last line of this movie. Do you guys remember what it is?

[Marie Mareno]

Something like, we. We welcome you, Spider.

[David Sims]

No, that's like the second last. The last line is spider sing. No shit. Because they're like, spider. Well, you are now one of the people. And he goes, no shit. And it says, avatar, Fire and Ash. Directed by James Cameron. Now, James Cameron could die tomorrow or could decide to go make other movies. And that could be the last word in Avatar is Spider is humans joining the Na' Vi fold. And their reaction be, whoa, no shit. Whoa. I'm a fucking. The Na' Vi. Now. One of the people, I think, feel about Spider's performance.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

We're going to get to it. Let's put a pin in that. I think, way of water.

[David Sims]

That was me putting a pin in it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Look, we've been early Avatar defenders, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I love The I love people were clown on Avatar before it came out. Then it obviously has this massive success, like a huge kind of like Oscar upswing. People, I think, kind of forget how much it was seen going into that night as this is probably gonna sweep.

[David Sims]

As a, as a possible favorite. Yes, it was, it was kind of.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

50, 50, this David Goliath narrative with of course his ex wife Catherine Bigelow and apparently best friend.

[Marie Mareno]

Best friend.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He said Guillermo del Toro and Catherine Bigelow are his two best director friends.

[David Sims]

It's really great of him to say. I mean, I really think that he mostly lives in New Zealand. He doesn't hang out with people.

[Marie Mareno]

He. What do you mean? He builds models like Guillermo del Toro's house with Steven Spielberg and J.J. abrams. They all hang.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

James Cameron did this two part interview on the town that is incredible. Every single thing he says in it casually is like 17 new volumes of lore. Just there's an incredible moment you talking about like, James Cameron could die tomorrow, right? And Bellamy is saying like, so now, now you're saying you might not do 4 and 5. Is the Hiroshima movie happening? And he went, look, we don't even have a script for that. That just came up in interviews. So people assume that's what's next. I got like five things in development. I don't even know what the next thing's gonna be. You know, I'd love to make other Avatar movies, but look also like I'm 70, you know, I. Who knows how many movies I have left in me. And then in the most James Cameron statement of all time, he goes like, I mean, best case scenario, what? I only have 30 or 40 years left in me. That's a good case scenario, my friend. You know, like Martin Scorsese does these interviews where he's like, look, I'm in my 80s. Maybe I only make one or two more films. James Cameron's like, I'm in my 70s. You know, maybe I don't make it past 110. I might only have seven giant films.

[David Sims]

That take five years.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The economy of an entire country.

[David Sims]

James Hammers is the kind of guy that he might know something we don't.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, I hear him say that and I believe it.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, I love that interview so much.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

There's so much good.

[Marie Mareno]

Just some other tidbits. When he's introduced, Matt Bellany is like, you know, filmmaker, writer, producer, technologist, futurist. Is there anything I'm missing? And then James Cameron, like really casually is like deep sea explorer.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He said that there's a Semi Regular Hang in, which Guillermo del Toro, Steven Spielberg, J.J. abramson himself build old school.

[Marie Mareno]

Model kits and that Guillermo sometimes flies to Japan to pick up materials because they have the best.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He said he and JJ went together and shipped a truck full of model kits back. And he said, but you gotta come correct. You need to know what you're doing. We don't let noobs in. And Bill, and he's like, what do you build? And he was like, I mostly like rebuilt the Aurora creature from the Black Lagoon, because I'm familiar with that one. I have experience with that kid.

[David Sims]

It's just throwing up my hands up.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But when he says this 30, 40.

[David Sims]

Years hunt humans for sport or something, like, why are they like, you know what I mean? They're rich, famous, but they're so dorky.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They're just like. He says this 30, 40 years thing and he's like, look, I like went vegan. That added another 10 years. Power, positive thinking, you know. He's also like, I'm assuming, like, the technology is going to like, catch up, you know.

[Marie Mareno]

Oh, there's also the crazy part where he talks about his friendship with Elon Musk, where like that got, There were so many things that got pulled out as clickbait headlines from that interview that sound really shitty. But then when you actually listen to it and you hear him explain himself, it's like the most rational shit in the world. I'm like, oh, yeah, I get it. So like, him being friends with Elon Musk was some, not something that I knew, but apparently, oh, we were. I know Elon way back from the Mars Society in the late 90s, right?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's like, I've been talking this guy for 30 years. All the weird people who are like, to write this kind of fun space ourselves. And he's basically like, I've known him forever. I basically disagree with everything he thinks and does now.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But for better or worse, worse. This guy, like, controls the levers of power and there needs to be like, positive influences in his ear.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, he's just like, I, I, we, we mostly just talked about space. And I'm like, okay, cool. I get that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's like, I got to give him credit. Like, he basically saved the space program. Also, he's done a lot of other horrible. And then he like talks about the AI stuff, which has been like clickbait. And everything he says is really rational, which is just like, I don't trust these people to use it responsibly. There's no way we're Going to be able to stop them. So like, what I'm fighting for is how to like self enforce regulations now to cut it off at the past. And he breaks it into two.

[David Sims]

Let's get back to Avatar. Okay, okay, let's get back.

[Marie Mareno]

Segue. I hope that this is in front of every screening of the film.

[David Sims]

But you guys had it too.

[Marie Mareno]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Yeah, we would never use generative AI.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, we had, we had the Cameron intro where he says that this is not, none of this is AI. All of Avatar Fire and Ash is made by humans.

[David Sims]

Now he's talked about not being opposed to some AI stuff to like help along. No, I'm just saying, like, I was.

[Marie Mareno]

There's a difference between generative.

[David Sims]

Yeah, exactly.

[Marie Mareno]

And AI that's used to.

[David Sims]

This is something people all yell at.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I know. But just to represent his thoughts here, which I, I, I am wary of all AI, all fucking freaks. We're all a little wary. I'm worried that the entire planet is going to collapse. And especially coming from the guy who like created the Terminator mythology when like these quotes were coming out, that seemed like, well, let's like around with AI a little bit. He was like, AI is basically now this catch all term for a couple different things. And he was like, basically like automated. Like actual independent intelligence is Skynet. And if we open that Pandora's box, we're the second that like a missile system is connected to a computer, society's over. Like, it's game over. Right? He was like, there's generative AI, which like, is now the thing that everyone's trying to use to cut corners. And he basically was just like, the film industry is collapsing. These movies are getting too expensive and they're performing less and less. But also it's harder to convince an audience to go unless you're selling them on that level of spectacle. I think we need to find a way to integrate these things into our systems, to use them to, to help bring costs down, because few filmmakers are given the freedom and the budgets that I have. And Bellamy was like, isn't that putting people out of work? And he's like, same number of artists getting it done in half the time. And his argument is, I need to be on the forefront of this to ensure that that's the way it's used, rather than how a lot of studios and tech companies want to use it, which is replacing people. It's all a fucking slippery slope that no one knows how it's going to settle. But he very much now is like, audiences don't believe shit they see on screen anymore. And everyone thinks that everything must just be like mysterious, magical AI and so he's like, these are all performance driven actors in the volume. Not manipulated, not animated and done by him.

[David Sims]

My problem with that video was just a bit of a spoiler for After Fire Nash, the movie I was about to see. I had clips from the movie in it.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Get the out of here. Because it was like side by side. Yeah. Which I appreciate showing. Like, these are the actors, right? Right.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah. My dumbass was like, oh, are they from Way of Water? Like, I didn't even know.

[David Sims]

This is giving me, you know, this is tipping my hat on like emotional conversations that are coming up.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Can we slash? Should we attempt to like do the plots? Like the basic.

[David Sims]

But it's.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'm like, I know I'm gonna be forgetting 50.

[David Sims]

I wish I had a synopsis, a deeper synopsis in front of me. But the film hasn't come out yet when we're recording this episode. So that hasn't really been done up. So we can try. But the movie, it's a bit different from the. I thought. I worried it would be like a Way of Water of the true. Like, first chunk is getting everyone's bearings. Big action sequence, we move to another place. And that's kind of what the first chunk of this movie is. We're getting our bearings. This. The big battle from Way of Water happened. The sun died. Everyone's feeling bad. Let's go in this airship with David Thewlis and go. And I was like, oh. And they're gonna like go to the fireplace and then are we gonna like meet the fire People learn their culture. You know, is it gonna be the same?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But that's not already a couple big points that are like coming up here. Right. And talking about our audience is gonna, like, struggle with this a little more than the last one. And there were all the naysayers last time being like, who fucking gives a shit about Avatar anymore? It's been too long. It being that long, I think really did help that movie.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That it felt like it was new. We've been exciting living through 15 years of all these fucking franchises getting milked to death. And this is the one that we've actually, like, haven't seen in a while. You know, the entire basic fucking Marvel Cinematic Universe happens between the first and second Avatar. Save for the first two movies. Three. And so, yeah, that was helpful. It also is like Way of Water acknowledges the time jump. Things have changed a lot. The opening of the Film is like catching you up with the new status quo.

[David Sims]

I had kids. Also there's Spider. Also there's Curie. There's a lot for you to understand.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And we're forgetting the first flight.

[David Sims]

Oh, well, we did, we did.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

We did Cirque du Soleil show about the first Turokmecto. The first person.

[David Sims]

Yeah. A narrative I remember in great detail, certainly.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But I remember your review of Way of Water where you were like, it's an Avatar movie. And we're like, David, that doesn't describe it. And then I saw it, I was like, he has basically turned this into a genre. And it is following the kind of like story structure of how an Avatar movie works.

[David Sims]

Yes. And then in the last act, when everything is on the board and suddenly is all activated at the same time, you're just like, whoa, Like, I didn't. Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And this one does not really have that in the same way.

[David Sims]

No, but it is just spinning a lot of different plates. And then when you're in the final act, I think I expected like, okay, we'll have another big battle and it'll be super exciting. And there is a big battle and it is super exciting, but it's more that you're just kind of like, I cannot believe how many characters. How many, like big functional characters with arcs we are flitting between right now and that I have the grounding for it. Not just like, what's up with Spider? What's up with fucking Kate Winslet? What's up with her daughter?

[Marie Mareno]

What's up with Payakan?

[David Sims]

What's up. What. What is up with Payakan? And why has Zoran not appointed him to his cabinet?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's got to be part of the transition team.

[David Sims]

Pion should be operating at all levels of life.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[David Sims]

My new My Rivers Commissioner will be. And he rises from the scene.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Let me throw this out. Can we put him in charge of transportation? Because sure. If you grab Payakan's fin, it feels like you get where you're going fast.

[David Sims]

Imagine him in like a labor negotiation. He just rises from the scene.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The first movie, it's like the central emotional arc that resolves itself is like Jake Sully's like exploration identity. Right. And finding himself and like waking up at the end, his eyes opening in the new Avatar body. He is fully in a V now. Right. The second movie has the kind of self contained emotional arc of like Jake Sully needing to figure out what kind of father he is. Right. It is the self reflective movie of what Cameron's talked about this very personal thing of him realizing, like, maybe it's time for me to stop being an and like intimidating everyone as my love language to get what I want.

[David Sims]

Want.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And is this movie of a kind of like an emotional maturation? This movie opens with Lo' ak in the narration position.

[Marie Mareno]

Why did he do that? I mean, I know you don't have the. That was one thing that I didn't love. It's like, why are we.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I like it.

[Marie Mareno]

Part of me was like, is Jake gonna die?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I like it as a change of perspective because I also think this movie is less hinged on Jake's internal journey. It's spread out a little bit more. And I also think there's the transference happening, especially with the death of when the son dies. I always forget the other son's name. Netaim feel so embarrassed.

[David Sims]

It's like I'm at a party and how are your sons? I think, yeah, yeah. And. And then Loak is the other son. Loak is the living son.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Okay. And then Spider and Kiri.

[David Sims]

I will. I mean, in the, for in the second movie, the older son is the summer. I was like, I don't care about this character. And then he dies. And I was like, all right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

This is one of those perfect examples.

[David Sims]

Because he's just like the good kid.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I think Way of Water grows on second, third plus viewings is the first time you're watching, you're like, what's with this extra kid? And once you know he's like doomed for death and he's kind of a cautionary tale and that he's mostly there to like inform Loak's journey. I, I think, I think it's like representative of the story. Now moving into like Loock being in this position of pressure of you are the inheritor of all of this. You are the oldest. Jake's trying to chill out to some degree while also trying to keep his family safe and the clan safe. You know that he's putting more and more on his son while trying to be emotionally in tune with what he's going through. And so it helps to get that perspective a little bit. But it also makes you think, oh, is this really going to be like a loock movie? And as you said, it's like 15 characters.

[David Sims]

A lot of our characters have arcs that are pretty complete in this movie. Like, you know, they have a start.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And end, but you can't say there's like a key overriding emotional, self contained story to this movie.

[David Sims]

It's Spider Spider's the closest.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Spider's the closest.

[David Sims]

Yeah, but it's. Spider is also throughout it, so guileless.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Down to no ship. His last line in the film, which is the last line spoken in the Avatar series.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Down to. Also when. When Jake Sully is, like, about to.

[Marie Mareno]

Remember him saying no, he says no.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

When Jake Sully's about to murder him adoptive father, he's like, sucks.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But I get it, man.

[David Sims]

I guess you gotta do it. That was. That scene is incredible. And I started crying, but I'm just saying, right? It's more about how people are reacting to Spider versus Spider himself, who, you know, it's. It's water off a duck's back with him. Like, you're saying, like, he's usually just kind of. Okay, this is the situation, I guess.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes. Spiders become this hot potato, the biological son of Quaritch, who is dead. But now his consciousness has, of course, been reanimated within an avatar body, which is a pretty potent max. And there's the whole interesting kind of, like, paternal tension of how much he does or does not want to identify as this kid's father. Because it's like, I'm. I'm literally not your father, but I'm also like a body with the backup hard drive of the man who fathered you and him weaponizing how much he does or doesn't care. Sometimes it becomes his weakness. Sometimes he uses it like a political football. And then the Sully clan, which have taken him in and are increasingly becoming wary of, like, is treating him like a son, putting not only our family but our species in danger.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The.

[David Sims]

The. The. The jump. Initially it's like, right, is this kid target on our back? And why are we. And then the jump becomes like, oh, should he even be alive now that he's this hybrid? Is he the thing, right, that they. Backwards, you know, invent a human Na' Vi sort of breathing system out.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I mean, we're just immediately picking up the threads of the last one. One of my favorite moments in Way of Water is at the end where Quaritch is holding Kiri, or is it Lo' Ak at knife point.

[David Sims]

Quaritch is holding the little girl at knife point. At the end, he's on two.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

At knife point. Yeah. And Natiri takes Spider, and it's this moment where she's like, saying, like, I swear to God, I will kill him.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And Quaritch testing, like, you do care about him as much as you want to say, he's not your son, but what's scary about that moment is Natiri is so feral and so protective that you cannot tell if it is a bluff or if she actually truly is ready to murder what is like ostensibly an adoptive son. Of course.

[David Sims]

Yes, absolutely. A member of their family like to.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Prioritize her biological children.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And this movie is like, immediately in the fallout of that of like something was revealed in that moment about her feelings, which then shakes up this whole thing we've already alluded to.

[David Sims]

She is sad because her son did just die.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[Marie Mareno]

I like her little morning veil.

[David Sims]

Me too. In her morning makeup.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'm never going to prioritize a human above a navi. Does that speak to an inherent, like, disgust with the notion that you are with someone who was originally a human and thus your biological children are partially human. And this whole kind of like internal struggle in her, which she is so she. She is really knocked down in focus in way of water. And I like how much this movie brings her back up to kind of the main story.

[David Sims]

Yeah. And I was just. I was just so there for her to have in the binding of Isaac moment.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[David Sims]

We're jumping all around.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Everyone's fighting for Spider and what he represents. And in a moment where they are struggling, he's losing oxygen. They need to get him a new mask. They need to get.

[David Sims]

That's not what I was talking about. But yes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He almost dies. And Kiri connects to what is not the mother tree, but like the mother root underwater. Yeah.

[David Sims]

The mother coral, mother reef. I don't know.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And basically figures out how to do a successful version and a much smaller scale of. Of what they tried to do. What they successfully did with Jake's body at the end of the first movie.

[David Sims]

No, no, no, no, no, no. Wait, wait, wait. Okay, okay, okay.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She merges him with awol. Yeah.

[David Sims]

That's not what they did with Jake's body.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

What they do with Jake's body is fully transfer.

[Marie Mareno]

They transfer.

[David Sims]

Yeah. They just use the data. Yeah. What she does with spiders, completely crazy.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She creates a hybrid.

[David Sims]

Right. She puts like a bit of, you know, magic pod in his mouth and then he. Right. He evolves into a new creature. It's nonsense. It almost feels though, more like it's nature based, not tapping into awa. Right. It's not, it's not neural. It's like. Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's physical connecting and then using the environment.

[David Sims]

No, she doesn't neurally connect the, the, the floppy things.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah. She sees like the thing that looks.

[David Sims]

Like the AA pods float on by and she's like, oh, right, yeah. She can't connect to AWA Griffin. I'm pretty sure she's being. There's a firewall. There's just being rejected.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Fire and ash.

[David Sims]

And then she comes up with this alternative idea. Yes.

[Marie Mareno]

And she doesn't know how she came up with it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's sort of an expediated version aided by her of just like natural adaption to an environment. But it's. It creates this like, incredibly loaded notion of, oh, my God. If humans can adapt to live here comfortably, they ruin aid of technology, then there's nothing stopping. They don't need a fucking avatar body, they don't need vehicles, they don't need to wage complicated war.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, sorry. Just completely unrelated to anything, but this is just kind of crazy. The NBR list came out and Hamnet isn't in their top 10 films of the year.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Interesting. Is fire and ash in there?

[David Sims]

Yes, I think it is.

[Marie Mareno]

Yes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That is interesting.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And Spider was nominated for best supporting Actor.

[Marie Mareno]

Best supporting Spider.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Okay. And the matriarch was nominated for best supporting Tulkun.

[David Sims]

Yes, I have some questions about the matriarch.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Ask away.

[Marie Mareno]

Well, when did she get her piercings? What are they made out of?

[David Sims]

She goes to Williamsburg like anybody else.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She attends the semester at the New School.

[David Sims]

No, it's just like. So a thing that happens in the way of water is we meet the Tulkun and we learn of their pacifist ways.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Kaikan, the outcast Tulkun, he kills Nupee.

[David Sims]

And that the humans are now they've moved on from Unobtainium and there's getting goo out of the Tulkun.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Emily Ratajkowski.

[David Sims]

What was that?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

What they call the brain juice. Emrato.

[David Sims]

Do they know? Is that what they call it?

[Marie Mareno]

It's with an A, though.

[David Sims]

And it's like. And it's his, like, Kiwi accent or whatever. That guy scores B. Is that his name?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I came up with that joke while I was watching the movie and I was like, I'll probably get like a 2 from the board instead.

[David Sims]

You gotta. Huh? And you know. So Payakan, in the triumphant thing in Way of Water, Payakan helps defeat these evil whalers. Right?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

In the words of the Great Scott Garridner podcast, the Ride, he chopped Scoresby's arm off like a fucking samurai blade.

[David Sims]

So true. And then in this one, instead of the whale, the Tulkun being like, thank you. That was actually a good call. These guys are really fucking us up. They're like, ok, first things first. Payacon, you Are so banished. You should not have done that. Comes back, not allowed.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And it's like, see, I told you guys. Pycon's good. And they were like, first of all, we can't believe you're talking to P. Silence.

[David Sims]

We're still not over that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Second of all, Pycon, slow the down.

[David Sims]

Go away. And then, like, Scoresby's just like, all right, well, my strategy won't change at all. I guess I'll just continue to attack these guys. A robot arm now?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So that's the kind of stuff that I think people might see this movie and be like, is it recycling or is it, like, kind of hitting the same beats a little bit?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I think especially the big final set piece, even though there's so much more that is new going on narratively in terms of the actual action. The big final battle in this is basically combining the big final battle from the first movie and the big final battle from the second movie simultaneously.

[David Sims]

And. Which is cool.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And there's repeated imagery. And then he gets into whole new. Then it gets trippy.

[David Sims]

Well, the. The one thing I thought in the final sequence that felt new was when they're on that in the magnet field thing and they're all kind of tumbling around.

[Marie Mareno]

So that. That showed up with the eclipse.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

There's like, yeah, there's.

[David Sims]

I might have missed it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And then it feels like there's an aurora borealis. I always thought that was an extension of Eywa. Was I wrong?

[Marie Mareno]

I don't think they really set that up.

[David Sims]

Or they did and I forgot, like. Or it's in. In wave water. They're like, oh, and this fucking magnet thing.

[Marie Mareno]

The thing that I remember them saying in this movie is that they had to do the hunt as fast as possible for the. The bad guys had to get the Tulkuns as fast as possible because they couldn't get into the vortex.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

These movies are not nuanced, but they are incredibly dense. And it is hard to absorb on one viewing, especially when it's three hours and 15 minutes long. And every scene, like, introduces 15 new ideas that it asks you to download really quickly.

[David Sims]

I think they also, though, have to go because all the younglings are in one place.

[Marie Mareno]

It's the. Like. It's like them. The cat. What they call it, like the calf, something.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's when the cast.

[David Sims]

It's like a big spawning thing with all the. All the whales gathered. The tulkun. I love that you call it a convention.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, they're, like, fundamentally pacifists and they're freaked out by the fact that like Payakan defended himself.

[David Sims]

Right, right. I guess they're just being like Democrats. I resisted. And they're like, you are not a Democrat it anymore.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Can we like reach across the aisle and have a sensible conversation? Can't we return to normaly? And Payakan's like, no way. And it's also the what the Mechaina who are the Water tribe. Am I getting their name right? You know, have also struggled with this feeling that like Jake Sully being Taru Makto being more of a warrior being in.

[Marie Mareno]

He brought the fight to them and they're not super down.

[David Sims]

I really, I really love that Cliff Curtis performance. He just always looks like he wants to tell Jake to go away, but he can worry. Yeah, great character. No, you're right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

If I don't respect you, you know, there's that vibe I want.

[David Sims]

It's also. And it's the weird incongruity that is addressed in this movie a lot of like, Jake's the only navi that carries a weapon.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's a fucking marine.

[David Sims]

Because he is a marine and he's never quite. And I learned something. I was rifling around on the Avatar Wikipedia, which is rifling. Do you guys know about the three laws of Eywa?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Please give them to me.

[Marie Mareno]

Is it that all energy is only borrowed?

[David Sims]

It's sort of like that. But no, it's like so, so. Because I was learning about the three laws of AWA because Varang, our big new character in the film, played by Una Chaplin, the leader of the Ash people, does not obey the three laws of awa. And they are. You shall not set stone upon stone. You shall. Neither shall you use the turning wheel nor use the metals of the ground. Now I've never thought about this, but it makes sense because you watch Avatar and you're like, you know, it's like the Na' Vi are quote unquote primitives, right? They don't have technology. And you're kind of like, is this supposed to be some sort of thing of like, the humans are more advanced than them? It's like, no, no, no, no, no. They don't do it because they don't want to fuck up their planet. So they're like, we're not going to. And we know about wheels. We're not stupid.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Their vehicles are coexist.

[David Sims]

We coexist with flying and running and swimming things. We don't need to have wheels. We don't need to have vehicles. We know about mining we don't want to do that because that fucks with the planet and you can't, you know, fix it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

We want to use what the planet already gives to us, not pull things out of it.

[David Sims]

And you shall not set stone upon stone is, you know, you can't build anything that's not already kind of organically there. So like, you want to build something in a tree, that's fine.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But you can't around building buildings.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Although, did you see that new high rise they're building next to the mother tree?

[David Sims]

It has a gym.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's got like washer dryer in unit.

[David Sims]

Oh, boy. And like, I just like that thinking of like. Right. It's like the Na' Vi live in this, you know, which is set out all the way back in the first movie, right. In this coexistence with Pandora. But I like thinking about it as like, it's a philosophy. It's not just like an advancement level or whatever.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

No. And it's like, it's, it's, it's a connection with a consciousness. You know, it's like this movie physicalizes and literalizes a God that is also a representation of nature, but also the collective memory of the history of their species. And that. Right. The coexistence with the creatures, the. The pony braid connections is this, like, sense of communication.

[David Sims]

And it's this Cameron Utopian vision of like, what if we had never messed with our plan? You know what I mean? We just left it. And of course, drawing from indigenous people, of course, as always. But sometimes you worry like, oh, is he fetishizing or romanticizing these things? But this movie hit me every time that the varang at all are like, now give me the guns. Where you're like, nah, man, this is.

[Marie Mareno]

It doesn't look right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. But it's also this interesting tension now when she.

[David Sims]

With the drugs. That's all right, good.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'll take all that.

[David Sims]

We're all giving a big thumbs up.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Please give it to me. It's what's interesting about Jake that not only is he someone who like, uses those kinds of weapons, but he has the psychology of a Marine.

[Marie Mareno]

It is weird.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's trained like a Marine and they all have this uneasy relationship with him where they're like, even when it's effective, are we like letting something dangerous into our culture now? Are we like, opening doors we can't close again?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Which extends to, you know, now maybe.

[David Sims]

She'S got reason to be mad. Maybe a volcano blew up her family possibly. And there was someone came to their aid. Well, maybe someone should have come to her aid. None of the other tribes. I mean, that's part of the bitterness.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The other tribes didn't show up. AWA didn't hear her.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

To be fair, AWA was on a call.

[David Sims]

Is that right?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

With Delta trying to get a refund.

[David Sims]

Interesting. And where do you think that landed? Below or above the Amrada joke?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Below. Firmly below. Subterranean. I think I could have maybe found a different specific that would have made. Avatar four is not the right choice.

[David Sims]

Avatar four? Mole, Navi, subterranean. Ooh, yes.

[Marie Mareno]

Sick.

[David Sims]

Because, you know, they've now done all the elements. If you think about it like, if you think of the originals as the kind of Earth avatar, the tree people, and we've met the water people and the fire people. And then David Thewlis and his gang seem to be the sort of air people.

[Marie Mareno]

I wish we spent more time with them. I would love to hang out more with the Sky Wind Traders.

[David Sims]

I would. You know what? I like those jellyfish. They flop in the air. But I found it interesting how they even talk about their politics of like, we're neutral because we're benefiting from trading with both sides of this war. Well, yeah, he has to stick out. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Past history. I don't want to fuck with.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And they're, you know, right.

[David Sims]

They got to move through territory so they don't want anyone mad at them.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[David Sims]

And that's again, what Farang is like. She doesn't play by any of those rules.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Now, let's make it clear. Air people different from the sky people.

[David Sims]

Well, yes, sky people.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Humans who came from the sky.

[David Sims]

You don't like that?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And ruined everything. They're bad. One of the most incredible things about this franchise is how firmly anti human it is.

[David Sims]

Someone in this movie says, like, kill all the humans. And you're like, yes, finally someone's a rational person.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It is teaching the audience, every single member of the audience, to innately root against your species. And the couple of good human allies are like exceptions to the rule. Small roles. It's not like we're getting a ton of Norm Spellman.

[David Sims]

No, they're all like Martin Freeman and Black Panther level. Like, yeah, 15th on the call sheet.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The only good human is like a full on species traitor. I surrender my body and give myself over to you permanently. It's just like, I cannot think of another series like this that demonizes all of humanity in a way where, like, there are so many other ecologically based. This is the harm of the Humans or, you know, this is the harm we're inflicting upon animals or the. The planet or nature that comes to some resolution of, like. We've learned a difficult lesson here today. Thank you, mumbles the dancing penguin, for teaching us that we need to protect, you know, the oceans. And these movies do not offer humans, like, any path for redemption.

[David Sims]

No, they're getting. They gotta go.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They gotta go.

[David Sims]

They're getting murked as hell.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They gotta.

[David Sims]

And the more they're there, the. Oh, the worse they're making.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Everything.

[David Sims]

They suck.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And the city that they've built, you know, that's in ray of water and that's here. Sucks.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, it sucks.

[David Sims]

It's really cool to go there. Like this, like, industrial, like, soulless. No trees. No. You know, like. But yeah, it's a bummer.

[Marie Mareno]

Is it. Is it still called Hell's Gate now?

[David Sims]

I think Hell's Gate is what they call the first one. Let me look this up.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

A fascinating moment for me in this film. And these movies just have all these, like, Little Bridgehead.

[David Sims]

Is the name of the city in this. Yes. It looks like something you'd see off the turnpike.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, it's very, like, New Jersey refineries.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

These little things where I'm like, wait a second. I want to hear about that for 10 hours. I want to read about this. When Jake Sully is captured and put in, like, a orange prison jumpsuit inside a glass, like, Hannibal Lecter box on display like a freak show en route to being executed. And he is surrounded by all these humans with their, like, stupid smart devices filming him on the screens. And you realize, like, oh, like, to these people is Jake Sully, like, Edward Snowden.

[David Sims]

He's like Benedict Arnold narrative we're not covering of.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's on the news.

[Marie Mareno]

There's a news cryon that says terrorist captured.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's not like a terrorist, but he's like the ultimate traitor to them. And everyone's cheering as if it's like, we got bin Laden finally.

[David Sims]

It's a thing, I think about this.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's a thing that the movies can't really get into because it's just too big a kettle of fish, Right? Because I think about Avatar 1 as, like, you know, having so much of a rock in it. You know, like the destruction of Home Tree and all that. And just about like. Like the RDA and all that. It's like, it's this foolish overextension. Like, what are they doing? They've gone all the way over there.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And the mining for resources.

[David Sims]

And they're my. And it's like they're obviously. But like. So in one sense I'm like, are there not people on Earth who are like, can we fucking get out of Pandora? It's a quagmire. Like all we keep doing. We said falco there now where's my nurse Jackie? I don't get, you know, like. And instead this is presenting this narrative of like no, no, no, no. The propaganda over there has worked. People want their Tulkun goo, they want their Unobtainium and like Jake Sully is Persona non grata on Earth. Well, there's like a race trait, a.

[Marie Mareno]

Species trait, couple lines about how like Earth is like ruined.

[David Sims]

Earth is just strip mined, right?

[Marie Mareno]

So I guess like, if you want to like continue the human race, we have to look for other.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

There's the whole.

[David Sims]

The same shit that happened in history though with colonialism, you know, we'll forever need our sugar.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Because we got to put sugar in our tea to taste better. I get that is that sugar is tasty, but that as the, the more old fat. But like when I was thinking about like modern reactions, like, you know, two things like the Middle east wars where like, you know, there's no thing where some soldier, you know, and where, where America's been like, yes, we. I would think that of a Earth as being like Pandora, like, like who knows what goes on over there.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

There has been strong speculation that when Cameron's like 4 and 5 or swerve, they're gonna surprise people that what he's alluding to is that there was a stronger element of Earth in those.

[David Sims]

Hey, I'd be interested to know what's going on now.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The interesting thing to circle back to, of course there was the whole opening he shot for the original film. That is quite bad.

[David Sims]

Yeah, that sucks.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's like drunk getting recruited for the special edition, right? Because that stuff kind of feels like it's not canon because it wasn't in the theatrical version. But also so much time has passed in universe at this point. You can do whatever. But I am, I would be very curious to hear what Earth's relationship is to the idea of whatever we're doing on Pandora. If the idea is to like terraform it, to adapt to it, if it's just about using those resources ourselves, if it's just a thing about supercharging the economy, you know, I mean the, the Unobtainium, which everyone used to mock and now basically never gets referenced in these movies anymore, was the idea of like, right, the most precious mineral, Right? But the Emrata is like, this cures all diseases. This is like the magical potion. And one vial of this is worth like a billion dollars. But that's disconnected from the idea of can we move here? Which spider really opens up. And Cameron was talking about this a lot on the town, and this kind of, you know, versus all these other big tech moguls who are talking about, like when. When he says that he's been involved in the Mars project since the 90s and whatever. And he's like, so you're one of these guys who's like, believing colonizing. And he's like, no, I believe we gotta save Earth. We're never gonna find a planet that's better for us. Like, there's nothing we've discovered that is like, like 1% as hospitable as what we have right now. And we're ruining it, you know? And I think that's so much of what Avatar is about, that it's like imagining a fantasia of a dominant species that not only appreciates the planet they were given, but lives in perfect tandem with it.

[David Sims]

Yes. And we're coming along and we're being like, can you move your tree?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[David Sims]

It's on our shit.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And we're like, hear us out. We're really good at ruining planets.

[David Sims]

It is crazy. They've been in movie three, fucking Jermaine climate by this point. It's like the whale. These are like living, you know, conscious. And they're like, can he be. Yes, go away. We need so much money.

[Marie Mareno]

Hundreds of billions of dollars.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

David. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by mubi, the global film company. The champions. Great cinema. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there is always something new to discover. And with mubi, each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema.

[David Sims]

True.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And that's right, in particular.

[David Sims]

The Mastermind.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

One of my favorite movies of the year from one of my favorite filmmakers.

[David Sims]

Alive, the great Kelly Reichardt. It's streaming a movie in the US from December 12th. Kelly Reichardt, First Cow. Showing up lots of great movies. Directing Josh O'. Connor. The unforgettable Josh O'. Connor. In her latest Cannes triumph, the Mastermind.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

In a sedate Massachusetts suburb circa 1970, unemployed family man and amateur art thief, J.B. mooney sets out on his first heist. With the museum cased and accomplices recruited, he has an airtight plan, or so he thinks things.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You.

[David Sims]

You like this one, right? Gabby Hoffman, John McGara Hope Davis, Bill Camp. A Kelly take on a heist movie.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[David Sims]

It's like loose and quiet and noodly.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And kind of political, elusive and yes, incredibly fine. Josh o' Connor's amazing in it, really good in it. He's the guy right now as far as I'm concerned. But this is a really fascinating vehicle for him and I feel like it's Kelly Riker kind of dealing with a movie star Persona in a way I haven't quite seen her do before. An excellent movie, one of my favorites for the year. And that's not all they have, obviously. MUBI has an incredible selection. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Curated streaming service. They got all kinds of great stuff handpicked for you by Mubi International Films, art films. Always something worth checking out.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So I would say that a Mastermind is worth a month subscription alone. And to stream the best of cinema, you don't even have to pay for the first month. You can try Mubi free for 30 [e-mail] blank check. That's mbi.com blank check for a whole month of great cinema for free.

[David Sims]

There you go. All right. So if you're last minute shopper like me, it's Christmas time. You know the feeling. The shelves are getting empty, ideas are running low. Aura Frames. This is a gift that you can give to so many different people. It's gonna feel personal. That's because Aura Frames, very cool thing to hand out. It's a digital picture frame that you download the Aura app, you connect it to WI fi and you can just preload some cool photos onto it and. And then it'll ship to whoever you're giving it to. You can personalize the gift, add a message before it arrives, and then share new photos from your phone all year long. It comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag. So you can make it, you know, feel really special, but you can also personalize it with whatever you want. And you can even update this gift with new photos throughout the year to make it feel feel fresh. It's a really awesome thing. I've given it to lots of family and friends. You can't wrap togetherness, but you can frame it with Aura frames. So for a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best selling Carver mat frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code check at checkout. That's a dot com promo code check. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. There's this sense in this movie, like you say, of like Parker Selfridge, the great Giovanni Ribisi.

[Marie Mareno]

Nepo baby.

[David Sims]

Nepo baby. Son of the chairman. Maybe has different designs than say, Edie Falco's character does. I mean, Edie Falco's kind of there to be like, we need to, you know, quell the resistance and we need to.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She's not a monolith.

[David Sims]

Right. And Parker is a little more like, well, wait a second. If Spider can do this, maybe we need to focus on that. You know, like, so it's not right. There's not one plan.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It almost reads to me as if there was a large corporate effort to extract the elements that they can monetize from this planet, which they built a kind of war around. Right. Much like what has happened many, many times.

[David Sims]

Sure, sure.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

To get the military involved, to like create a reason for a crisis, for a need to explore even this notion of. Right. There were sort of the three tracks of like scientific exploration and outreach, a militarization and like a mining for pure capitalist reasons. And now those three things have gotten like tangled and disconnected simultaneously. Where they exist in opposite tracks, but they can't like completely separate themselves from each other. And it feels like there's like now this kind of like propaganda induced blood vendetta that exists within the military of like, they're savages. We have to stop them. Which is a direct byproduct of the self defense and the escalation of their war against the natural citizens of this planet that is now at odds with the corporations being like, can we just get more of the fucking goo? Stop making this so messy.

[David Sims]

I'd like some of that goo. I'll just say it apparently makes you live forever or whatever.

[Marie Mareno]

I don't want to be immortal.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

No, it would suck.

[Marie Mareno]

But you know, they. They could be kind of immortal by just becoming Navee.

[David Sims]

Well, and that's maybe something Parker is realizing. Are there couches though, like in the afterlife? Great question. What is the vibe?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They were just kind of standing around.

[Marie Mareno]

They're all just standing around when you connect.

[David Sims]

Oh, you're like. After an hour, you're like, can I sit down? I gotta sit on the ground.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Everyone you've ever known is waiting for you.

[Marie Mareno]

No, it's standing of Titanic.

[David Sims]

It is the ending of.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You're right. Yeah.

[David Sims]

No, I don't want to stand the whole time. Yeah, it'd be funny if Kate Winslet, you Know, embraced Leo in the afterlife or whatever. And he was like, welcome to the afterlife. And she said, no.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It'S kind of.

[David Sims]

What you do with the jewel. I dropped it in the ocean.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

No, I was surprised they killed her off in this.

[Marie Mareno]

Who, Winslet?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes. Her character is Ronald Renell.

[Marie Mareno]

How cool was it though, that she.

[David Sims]

Like, she's like, I'm gonna give birth this baby.

[Marie Mareno]

Birth. Natiri is helping deliver the baby. At one point, nature is like, hold on, sorry. And then shoots a arrow.

[David Sims]

Okay, okay, back to it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That moment of like she's gotten the thing shot into her chest. She's like 800 months pregnant. Right. She like claws her way back up onto land and goes to Natiri. And it's like, I'm dying. And it. Terry's like, don't say that. You're not. And she's like, I'm dying. And a Terry's like, okay, you're right. Let's deliver this baby. Like, there's this incredibly intense sequence of like, there is no chance you're making it out of this alive. The priority is just get the child out of you.

[Marie Mareno]

It was so cute.

[David Sims]

Yeah. First, go ahead.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

No, the child's name is Creel.

[David Sims]

Johnny Carson.

[Marie Mareno]

Is that the first what baby? That we've seen?

[David Sims]

Yeah. Because I know there's like sort of creepy AI art about.

[Marie Mareno]

No, we see babies especially when they're doing the, like the fast forward.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. The beginning of Boy Water.

[Marie Mareno]

And they talk about them expanding. Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You see his children being born. But you, I think you see babies as well in the year.

[Marie Mareno]

But you know what we didn't see, we did see in this movie the Little Otters.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I love those otters. They're cool.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And they're like the squid guys too.

[Marie Mareno]

Oh, the squid guys.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

When they. Cameron Diaz, the counselor. Those fucking.

[David Sims]

When the pod are just peeking people to death. You know, that was.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But they also the windshields until they crack.

[David Sims]

The squid. Sorry, the crab ships.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Are in the last one.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Are the sort of torpedo squid ones in there too. I felt like that was a new ship. I couldn't quite remember. I love all the looks of those ships.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Love the look of everything. Here's the other James Cameron. Magic Marie. Watched the. The two things on Disney plus. Right.

[Marie Mareno]

I, I, you know.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Okay.

[Marie Mareno]

Had them on.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They're like two 40 minute making of things. It's like a two part. What's it called? Fire and Water. That is good. But you also wish it was like 18 hours long. And it feels like it mostly exists because of James Cameron's sudden paradizing of conveying to people that these movies are not made with AI of like, really explaining the process and pulling back the curtain more than he had previously. But the big thing with these movies and why they, like, look better than anything else is not just the amount of money, the amount of time he's given, but James Cameron just has that insane. We are going to spend as much time as it takes to figure out the internal logic of how every single thing works. There is nothing on screen where you're like, that's cool. And you feel like that was the beginning, end of the process. It's like if a creature's created, you can just tell in these fucking movies that someone spent nine months figuring out the biology.

[Marie Mareno]

I mean, those squid looked so fucking real.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And the function of these creatures, where he talks about this, where he's like, I will not let there be a design element just because it looks interesting.

[David Sims]

There has to be an argument why.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That species has evolved to need that in order to survive. And I feel like all the military vehicles are the same thing. Where you're like, oh, fuck, it works like that. And he's the best at this shit, where he just visually teaches you how something works and then like, sets it up so that it could come back later and you have the shorthand in your head. That's where these movies are fucking complex. It is why he, like, you know, goes blunt and uses kind of shorthand and. And cliches and tropes in certain areas. Because it's like, some of the stuff I'm gonna have to fucking teach you is so complicated that I need to, like, clear the path in certain areas in order to download all this other fucking shit into your brain. Which will result in your final 40 minutes where you're like, I'm maintaining 15 narrative threads and understanding, like, 40 different species and how the ecology works and how all this technology works and the movie doesn't have to slow down and explain itself then.

[David Sims]

Right? Right. I mean, no wonder these things cost like $1 billion to make in totality or whatever. Yes. And take forever. And whole languages had to be thought up and all this stuff. And it's like, on the one hand, it's in service of a world that like 99% of viewers will never get beyond, like the first foot of. Right. Like, they'll never go deeper. Maybe super fans will eventually be handed bibles and encyclopedias that they can read book here.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But even I'm like, there'll be more. I wanted like a definitive 800 page volume where I could come like, I want an Encyclopedia Britannica. And it's the thing that people will throw out against these movies where they're like, but does anyone care about Avatar? Like, no one talks about this. And there's no, like, fan fiction and there's none of this.

[David Sims]

There is, but. Yeah, right, But I mean, I write it, but it's about real.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Like, it's not as culturally omnipresent as the things we know. Yeah, right. That will dominate the tip of pop culture. Certainly the things that are as successful as the Avatar franchise is. But what is interesting is that, yes, it's like all this work is done under the hood to basically service a thing that it seems like a majority of the audience goes like, yeah, they're fun to look at without doing the, like, I want to read all the backstory.

[David Sims]

The other thing that strikes me is that a universe like Star wars or even Star Trek or what are some.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Other big Game of Thrones.

[David Sims]

Well, let's put that one aside for a second. But let's think of like, those things.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Lord.

[David Sims]

Well, let's put that one aside. But the star. Let's do Star Wars.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Yes. George Lucas wrote down a bunch of weird. Yeah, but that's, you know, he started with this and they just started to.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Add on to constantly changing.

[David Sims]

And Star Trek was the same where, like, as they develop it, they're like, well, it's okay. So what would the wider world of this look like? Game of Thrones even. He probably, you know, added as he went along, he had more. Maybe a holistic idea. But like, like, for Cameron to like. No, no, we're gonna start with a whole functioning thing and then we'll build a story.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, it's what to me speaks to a larger issue and how we, like, engage with pop culture and this idea of like, how fandom has kind of poisoned everything and our sense of cultural purchase and weight is connected to the intensity of the fandom of like, Star wars is this thing that became basically a world in and of itself and bordering on like a religion and a thing that people will study. And people have been trying to reverse engineer that kind of for decades, which often distracts from like actual storytelling, which is the number.

[Marie Mareno]

Right.

[David Sims]

You don't want to get lost in your world building. Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

James Cameron is just like, the world building is like whatever it's like, means to an end. I care about all this deeply, but it's all in service of. Of making this story work for the three hours you're sitting there and people like. It's the thing that happens every time a Avatar movie comes out where they're like, that looks dumb. Then they go see it and they're like leaning forward in their seat. And then six months later they're like, that sucks.

[David Sims]

It was dumb, right? It looks dumb in my memory. I mean, I just saw an interview with him where he was talking about Titanic and the guy was some whoever was like, you just wanted to go to the Titanic, right? And he's like, yeah, yeah. I mean, and then I was like, I guess I could set a story on the Titanic. And I guess I was like Romeo and Juliet. And like, he admitted, like he was like 90%. I just wanted the fucking technology to visit the Titanic.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And doors like a fucking thing he started noodling with when he was like a teenager. What's the coolest fucking planet that could ever exist?

[David Sims]

So, yeah, so, you know, he. He's the first to admit his stories are elemental and basic.

[Marie Mareno]

Yes, I saw. And I don't know if it was on the Town or if it was CBS Sunday Morning or whatever, but another James Cameron interview where he was like, yeah, I. My biggest insecurity as a filmmaker is that I'm not as like, strong of a writer. And so I try and really focus on the visual showmanship and like those sorts of elements to try and mask what I think are my weaknesses and.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The communication of larger story ideas and more like primal emotions. I mean, these movies in so many ways, like, I was like, what is the closest analog to what he's doing now? Because it doesn't. It's not really fair to compare it to what else is happening in like blockbuster cinema or TV or anything. And it's like he's making like insane original sci fi versions of like, what used to be the biblical epic. Sure, in a way.

[Marie Mareno]

Right?

[David Sims]

Like A Cecil B. DeMille and these.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Very like, broad, huge, sweeping emotions. Statements about like humanity and the nature of existence. Except rather than riffing on the things that we've all known and lived with forever, he's like pulling from all these different myths and then building his own mythology and then still getting back to stories of like, yeah, but it's about, like, what it means to be a dad.

[David Sims]

Well, I mean, a lot of people pointed out Way of Water is about him moving his family to New Zealand to make Avatar 1. Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And his children being like, can you.

[David Sims]

Chill the fuck out, man?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Don't talk to us as people.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And. And the first and third movies are both about, you know, when you have that like, pony braid so good, it makes you go crazy. The two movies mirror themselves in that way where they're like, we all know this guy and we know what his deal is and he knows who he is. But what if a pony braid is so good that you actually lose your mind?

[Marie Mareno]

Can I bring something up that we haven't really talked about? And this was something that I brought up to you guys after we stopped watching the movie that was on my mind. Is that between Way of water and fire and ash coming out. John Landau dies.

[David Sims]

He did die, but I mean, he was very involved very well.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He died very recently and these two movies were basically captured together. It's been more of an extended post production process with the footage that was mostly done in 2020.

[David Sims]

John Landau, to be clear, has been Karen's producer since Titanic, was a Fox executive.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right. And then became his number two guy. Light Storm Entertainment.

[David Sims]

You basically just always would hear like, well, Jim's a. You know, Jim can be a little tough to handle and John's really good at kind of finessing and you know, helping him explain things to people with money and things like that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You know, interesting to me because I know you watched the ilm.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Disney plus series recently. It feels like such an inverse of the George Lucas, Rick McCallum Dynamic.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Where you're like, like, George is this like very soft spoken and then he has insecure.

[David Sims]

I think there should be seul, but. And McCollum's like, if I don't see 50 sobas.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's like, if you don't bring the visual effects budget down $50,000 in the next hour, I will murder you. And then John Lando is by everyone's account the like, ultimate mensch, but also was really into the sort of like, maintaining of the ecosystem of the Avatar world and the sort of quality control of all the other stuff that came out of it.

[Marie Mareno]

I was really struck by just thematically and I know that these movies were like written before he passed away and largely filmed.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

But how much of the processing of grief of like Losing a Brother is part of the text of the movie?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I think it's a great example of like the. The story maybe didn't change much at all, but the emotions of the person telling the story affected the way in which it was told. It just feels like there's a different tone to this. It feels like a slightly more serious and haunted movie. Even though it has certainly tons of Avatar silliness in it. I mean, this is Another thing, there's.

[David Sims]

Also the Titan Subversible imploded. And we all know James Cameron felt really bad for those guys and he was very, very compassionate about that. Every time he was interviewed on CNN where he was like, I heard they blew up. And I like it.

[Marie Mareno]

That guy's a Parker Selfridge.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I know. I was just thinking about how he's kind of Parker Self. Reggie. Yeah, yeah. Stockton, Rush. His name sounds like Parker Selfridge.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But this is another thing he explained very well on the town is that like these movies, basically he gets to just capture everything with the actors. At this point, there's so little footage using live action actors playing themselves. Right. Spider is really the primary one. And then you'll occasionally cut the scenes with Edie Falco as Sergeant Nurse Jackie and, and what have you. But so the majority of the film is like shot like a black box, like performance rehearsal space in this weird wireframe grid. And he just gets the performances he wants. And then he's like all of the, like, filmmaking decisions I make later in the computer. The only thing I care about when I'm with the actors is the performances and communicating the characters. And then I get to, with that data, figure out the shot composition, where the cuts are, how I'm lighting them, how I'm rendering the environment. And so it's like, narratively, everything is captured years before. And then the very long process is. How do you actually get it visualized on screen?

[David Sims]

Actors, though, get dunked.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Go on.

[David Sims]

And I. I'm wondering though, if they ever have to hold their breath for a period of time.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

K1 slap broke the record.

[David Sims]

Oh, really? Did you?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Did you? I know hearing this for the first.

[David Sims]

Time, I do think. I do think this never came up at all. But I mean, this was the thing that was.

[Marie Mareno]

I think I made myself sick on the last episode by trying to hold my breath.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Oh, yeah, that sounds right.

[David Sims]

Yeah. That's because you were throwing a tantrum because we wouldn't get you a toy.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Just standing there holding your breath like, weird. David, that feels like my daughter has not pulled the holding her breath. I. I think of that as such a classic, like, kids book thing. Right. And I'm like, I've never seen a kid actually do that because it's such an insane thing to do.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Can we get a quick side tangent that has made me really happy?

[David Sims]

What's that?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You have started talking about how you have gotten into the, the system of being able to communicate with your daughter via toy.

[David Sims]

Okay, sure.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Especially in, in the, like, efforts to like sleep schedule.

[David Sims]

Keep her in bed.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Keep her in bed. Right.

[David Sims]

If she fills up a sticker chart, she gets it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[David Sims]

Bribery.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right. And that you now are keeping like active tabs on the entire line of Spidey and his amazing friends and Iron man and his awesome friends.

[David Sims]

Is there not a Swarm toy?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Do you know this? That he texted about? What? That he knows every figure that exists in these lines. Lines. And any character she asks about. He gets so stressed.

[Marie Mareno]

You must love this Griffin.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It makes me so happy. And he's clearly. He doesn't ask me for advice that much because he clearly takes some pride in that he's able to figure these things out himself, myself.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But then that makes me proud when he's like. So I had to find a different thing figure in a compatible scale because they technically haven't made it like a.

[David Sims]

3 1/2 inch thing. 4 inch. Whatever it was. Iron man and his awesome friends is, you know, the new Spidey.

[Marie Mareno]

Like, I don't understand how the dinosaurs factor into this.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's a season five thing, right?

[David Sims]

Well, that's inspired. That's season three. It's just so funny how I did.

[Marie Mareno]

Buy my nephew a LEGO set that has like dinosaurs and Spidey.

[David Sims]

It's just the cracked out Disney plus boardroom where they're just like, okay, so the kids love Spidey. But you know, how many times can Spidey save the day? What else? They love dinosaurs. And someone's just like, what if they just turn into dinosaurs? How? Figure it out. Season three is them turning into dinosaurs.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You know, they were doing some of this in the comics too, recently, even before the kids show. Whoever the guy is who like sat up after, I'm sure Varang blew like navi dust up his nose and said, venice, Venom, Source Rex. Is that anything? They handed him like a National medal of Honor.

[David Sims]

You haven't lived until you've seen Electro turn into a velociraptor, which is like an episode. There's also a pirate ship season. They just were truly like, what else do kids like? Pirate ships, dinosaurs. There's. I don't know, there's. There's glowing trains.

[Marie Mareno]

Trucks.

[David Sims]

Done trains. I mean, there's a lot of good vehicles they should do.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They sort of haven't made Swarm as a toy yet.

[David Sims]

No. So. So now. So Swarm is one of the villains in the Iron man.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And that's a newer series. So the line hasn't gotten that deep in terms of only selection.

[David Sims]

The only toys they've released so far Are Iron Man, Iron Heart, Iron Hulk, and Ultron.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Okay.

[David Sims]

And my daughter really wants a swarm doll, so if anyone wants to make a swarm doll, that'd be great.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Okay.

[David Sims]

There's also, of course, Absorbing man. And, you know, they've got some other guys.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'll ping my folks at Hasbro. I'll see what they're.

[David Sims]

I'm sure it's all, you know, in the works. It's all. It's all in the assembly line. What's up?

[Marie Mareno]

Do you. Have you talked to your daughter about Red Hulk?

[David Sims]

It's a good question. I haven't. I think she would just kind of be like, hulk is green.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Because, you know, the Iron man show has Iron Hulk.

[David Sims]

Yes, Iron man show has Iron Hulk.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But he also has natural biological Hulk.

[David Sims]

Hulk, as my daughter calls him.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And then Iron man has Amadeus Chow, Iron Hulk, who wears a mech Hulk suit. Cool.

[David Sims]

And I think it's just, again, my daughter just gets it where she's just like, iron Hulk.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[David Sims]

I get it. He's like Hulk. I get it.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, he's like Hulk, but he's red and he's President.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

What else? But the President's where it becomes not going to get president thing.

[David Sims]

I don't think Liv Tyler or cherry blossom plots are really going to move her either. And if I'm just like, he just needs his pills.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's 80 years old. It's a shame you haven't let her watch Brave New World yet, because I. When you talk about, like, having trouble getting her to fall asleep at night, I know it's often her asking you questions of, like, will they ever resolve the plot lines of 2008's the Incredible Hulk? When are we gonna get follow up on the leader, Samuel Stearns.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah. Right, right. It would be so funny if they dropped the doomsday trailer. And it's like, the first shot is Red Hulk like that? They're just like, we're not giving up on this.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

No, I. Can I one up you. The funniest thing would be if the doomsday trailer opens with Ty Burrell as Doc Sampson. If they're like, we're not done with.

[David Sims]

Incredible Hulk characters litigating everyone from that movie. Thank God we got some Red Hulk talking. Phew. How's he. How do you think he's doing right now?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And let's quickly just salute our president up there.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

I haven't seen a single piece of media with Red Hulk in it.

[David Sims]

Well, there's only the one.

[Marie Mareno]

My only.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, it's a limited Canon so far.

[Marie Mareno]

Well, I haven't seen it and you.

[David Sims]

Don'T want to see it after the acclaim. Was it on the NPR?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, it's made the 10. Right. Who got best supporting red Hulk this year? Can you believe 2025 has been so long that brave new world came up. This.

[David Sims]

I believe it was January, was it not?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I think it was festival February, President's Day weekend.

[David Sims]

I think it did. I think you're right.

[Marie Mareno]

It is. It is. So. Man, we salute crazy. We went. We went to Texas this year.

[David Sims]

Not me.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Oh yeah, we did. Yes, you guys. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

We saw that Michael Bay parkour documentary that still has gotten.

[David Sims]

It's where we discovered certain grill master.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, well, you discovered what had already existed since time immemorial. Also crazy. I went to Santa Barbara this year and saw Horizon American Saga, Chapter 2. A movie that may never come out.

[David Sims]

Ah, what do you mean? Red. Red Hulk is on that. He'll. He'll. He'll liberate it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

We ran into Bill Gabiri, the great Bilgabiri, past and future guest after the screening and was. I was talking to him and we were both like, yeah. Everything we hear makes it really feel like it might truly never be seen.

[David Sims]

He's a tough son of a. That Kevin Costner. You know, he just might.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's. He is. Is his. His own greatest champion, his own worst enemy. Exactly that pancake eating.

[David Sims]

Isn't he in a deep sea diving era?

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, not so much deep sea as he is treasure hunting.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Doesn't he also have like a Disney plus special called like A Very American Christmas?

[Marie Mareno]

I mean, who isn't there?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Some.

[Marie Mareno]

I'm currently googling James Cameron, Kevin Costner to see if they've ever like talked about each other because I feel like they have so many common interest.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That feels like magnets turn to opposite sides that would repel across the room.

[Marie Mareno]

They both, they both worked on the, you know, relief for the Gulf Mexico oil spill.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They have shared interests. I don't think those two guys. I. I don't think there is a room with enough oxygen to maintain both of those guys. What the same time?

[David Sims]

The funniest paycheck gig Costner could take to try to get the money to like figure out his like, like what like dumbass franchise does he have to parachute into to like start collecting, you know, to like to stabilize.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I got the answer for you, my friend. Composite Hulk. Do you. Are you familiar with composite what the. Is half green Hulk and half.

[Marie Mareno]

Is this real?

[David Sims]

Yeah, of course.

[Marie Mareno]

Does that make him a half president.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

This is.

[Marie Mareno]

These are the questions that he's president. Like, what? What is. What else is?

[David Sims]

It's actually. That's kind of the big twist of the movie, which, of course, the trailers revealed right away because they were really worried.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[David Sims]

Because no one would go see the movie.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's the thing the movies created in the comics. It's just like, oh, you know, Red Hulk, who turns out in a twist to be Thunderbolt, father of the military general who hates Hulk and is the father of his.

[David Sims]

When Red Hulk was introduced, it was just like, who is Red Hulk? Was the big mystery. And it was like, hulk's out there and he's red and he's smashing people. Who could he be? Turned out he was Thunderball Ross, the.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Guy who hates the Hulk the most.

[David Sims]

He also had a gun and whose.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Daughter loves the Hulk the most. And in this movie, he gets elected president and he keeps taking these pills and they're like, what are those?

[David Sims]

He's the president. He's like, we gotta work out a trade deal with Japan. Where are my pills? And was like, why do you need these pills? I just need them for no reason.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It turns out the pills are the only thing that are stopping him from rolling out. And the pills can only be prescribed by Samuel Stearns, who's Tim Blake Nelson with a.

[Marie Mareno]

He has a big head. Okay.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

He's got like a medium.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, I had to look that up for whatever episode. Was that the Buster Scruggs episode?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You guys, the Leader. Spoiler Marie. But Brave New World ends with him in jail.

[David Sims]

Does.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's on the raft.

[Marie Mareno]

Wouldn't that be great?

[David Sims]

Thank you. I very have. Hard.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I think of another strangely hued president who I'd love to see in the raft. Oh, yeah, Donald. Donald.

[David Sims]

Oh, no, it's not like William Howard Taft or something.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

No, I said strangely huge.

[David Sims]

Oh, huge. I thought you're saying huge.

[Marie Mareno]

I thought you said huge too.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I was like, I mean, I guess Donald Trump's got that Weiger the orange buffoon. So we got Emrada. What was the other joke? I don't even remember the other one, but it was no good.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The problem is I came in loaded. It was the Delta Airlines being. It was a bad one. And. And by the way, never forget. Never forget that joke. Many laughs now. Yeah, Right When I tried and failed to land that joke.

[Marie Mareno]

There's gonna be a Reddit thread that's like, is. Is anyone else picking up on how, like, Griffin's just, like, lost the sauce.

[David Sims]

Someone needs to Reddit.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Much like James Cameron sometimes giving you blunt dialogue because he's got larger story designs at play. I came in with too many perfect big brain takes on Avatar that. My. My funny bone is just on. On shore leave today.

[Marie Mareno]

I mean, I think we do take this film and this franchise very.

[David Sims]

Organs work if you. If your brain grows other bones.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Sometimes you got to leave a bone on the bench for a little while.

[David Sims]

Ooh, new Paranormal Activity movie in the works.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Oh, congratulations, David.

[David Sims]

I get to complete my. My franchise.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

This play is apparently very cool.

[David Sims]

I know. I guess I got to check out the play. If it coming. I'm sure it'll come to New York.

[Marie Mareno]

There's a Paranormal Activity play in Chicago.

[David Sims]

It's in Chicago currently, but I think it's got good reviews.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Eva Anderson. Loved it.

[Marie Mareno]

I've only ever seen one horror play, and it was that one Tatiana was in that we saw together.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Oh, yes. Why am I already forgetting the name of that play?

[David Sims]

Oh, what was it called? It was called, like, the Old Gray House.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I saw a horror show once on Broadway. It was called Seussical the Musical.

[Marie Mareno]

A person's that wasn't bad, no matter.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

How small kept me up at night.

[Marie Mareno]

Wait, why? What. What's your beef with Seussical?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That thing's sloppy as hell.

[David Sims]

From there. I just saw Ragtime, which is the same composer. Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Very similar shows.

[David Sims]

You know, the. The scariest thing I ever saw, I think, like, movie, play, whatever, was the Woman in Black, which is a long.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, yeah. That is a very. On the west side, very famous horror play.

[David Sims]

Yes. And it was one of those. Maybe I was just a teenager and I was more impressionable or whatever, but, like, it was one of where I could not believe. How scary.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Apparently, like, Terminal Activity has, like, very good unshowy stage magic like that, where you're like, I am way more. I'm watching a Paranormal Activity live.

[Marie Mareno]

I am way more interested in that than I am in, like, the Stranger Things, like, where it's like, just like a lot of.

[David Sims]

Well, the Stranger Things show I think is just right. It's like, big.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

People like it, right? It's like, good.

[David Sims]

I think it's okay. Again, it's. The stagecraft is so impressive saying it. That's good. Stranger Things is one of those. Look, I mean, obviously, as I've said, I watched it three times. Every time Barb died and I stopped watching. I tried three times with that show. I got to Barb dying and for what and didn't keep watching because I found it boring. But it sort of makes it seem like I just couldn't get over the death of Bar.

[Marie Mareno]

Like, you were just like, really into watching her die. You rewatched, watched her die.

[David Sims]

Every time she dies, I throw my.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Remote, like Trump, like, fast forwarding through the dialogue scenes and kickboxer. You just have a super cut of just Barb dying over and over again. I saw a Stranger Things unicorn.

[David Sims]

Well, I basically am too. Apart from Barb.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I've never even made it that far.

[David Sims]

Right. But I mean, it's one of those.

[Marie Mareno]

I tried, I didn't finish.

[David Sims]

As this new season is dropping, it really feels like this is just an emperor has no clothes thing where everyone is just kind of like, I. I guess I'll watch it because I watched the rest of it. So I guess I should finish. But I'm not detecting a lot of people being like, can you believe what happened on Stranger Things? And instead I'm seeing a lot of people going like, they're just like fighting the fucking guy in the Upside down again.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Like, it's also like the most expensive TV show of all time. The TV show is like four movies. It has the most every episode release two hours.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right. The end of it's going into theaters first.

[Marie Mareno]

Millie Bobby Brown changed her name.

[David Sims]

Name, yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She's Millie.

[Marie Mareno]

Millie.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So fun to say.

[David Sims]

That is one of those things where.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'm like, our world is really.

[David Sims]

Everyone's like, well, she got married too young, like. And I'm like, what do you mean? She's been a celebrity forever. How old could she be? She's 21. She's a baby.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It is one of those things where every time I check her age, I think my brain is glitchy.

[David Sims]

She was truly 11 when she played 11 or whatever character Drake was texting her.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Whatever. The other one is Kaia Gerber, where.

[David Sims]

I'm just like, she's the one who's Cindy Crawford's daughter.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes. And she's like 23. And I feel like she has been in seven, five year long relationships.

[David Sims]

You think that because she has the name of a baby.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Gerber.

[David Sims]

So you think she's a baby. Yeah, that's the Kaya Gerber baby.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's the issue.

[David Sims]

What's she in? Have I seen her?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, well, of course. She played Chevy Chase's girlfriend in Saturday Night, a character that somehow had more dialogue and screen time than Gilda Radner.

[David Sims]

You know, Lorraine Newman.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I saw combined.

[David Sims]

She's in Bottoms. I watched she's in Bottoms and I saw Max Miguel, friend of the show. Huh.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She's in Shell.

[David Sims]

I saw his movie Shell, which she has like a big scene in it. Yeah, she's a smaller part.

[Marie Mareno]

I don't remember her in Babylon, but sure she can.

[David Sims]

Well, she played Starlet.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Oh, of course.

[David Sims]

So she's probably one of those scenes with all those stars.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But she's dated awesome Butler and if.

[David Sims]

You think about it, LA of a.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

City of stars Pete Davidson. Isn't she dating a Louis Coleman? Well, the rumor now is that she has.

[David Sims]

Has.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Is this been debunked?

[Marie Mareno]

This is debunked. She's dating some other random guy. But it was fake news that she was dating Richard Gear son, which was notable.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Cindy Crawford and Richard sliding doors, incest relationship.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, but I don't think.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But apparently it's not happening.

[Marie Mareno]

I don't think that's real.

[David Sims]

So Fire and Dash.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

We haven't even talked that much about Varang.

[David Sims]

One thing I will say about Varang, a character I loved and I was very excited to meet the Ash people all. She's merely a player on the board. She is, I suppose, the closest thing to the biggest villain in this movie.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They're putting her.

[David Sims]

But she's one of many characters.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The main marketing image, the poster is her face. Like first movie was Natiri face. Second movie was Curious. Third movie is Varang face.

[David Sims]

Oh, on the poster. Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right. And she's the cleanest kind of new marketing hook the movie has, which makes sense.

[David Sims]

And she rocks. But I did a lot of people walking out of the screening with me were like, I could have used even more of her.

[Marie Mareno]

Well, me too.

[David Sims]

And I. I understood that. And it is again, this thing of like if this is the last Avatar movie, which I don't think it is. But then that's a little disappointing, you know, that this is. This is all we got. But obviously if she's just another element in the world that we get to play around with more than. That's okay.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I don't know.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right. I also.

[David Sims]

But there's a good hefty amount of her. She's very interesting.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So fucking high on these movies. Especially since the public goes Ben W. Blanc on them every single time their knives out. And I feel like James Cameron always has this like on the eve of release. Like, I don't know if people even want these. Maybe I'll just go home kind of thing. And some of that I sometimes wonder if it's like very savvy renegotiation with the Walt Disney Corporation, especially because it basically was like they fully greenlit 2 and 3. But 4 and 5 have kind of been like half greenlit for a while. And some work has been done on them, but they haven't done, like, the major expenditures on them yet. And four wouldn't be for another five years.

[David Sims]

I mean, it's gonna be at least that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I think the last they said was maybe 29 and 32.

[David Sims]

That's what I. 29 and 31. Okay. But who knows? I mean, Michelle yo still hasn't shown up.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And supposedly James Cameron filmed her, Right. Playing a scientist or something.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, and like David Thewlis, who has a very small part in this, who's intriguing. And you were like, I want to know more about these people. Cameron was. Is a slow burn character. He's only got a little bit in this one. He's got a big arc in four or five, you know, and like, to me, I'm like, I don't think you bring David Theis to the volume just to do this. I have to imagine he's captured other theist stuff that he's just sitting on unrendered.

[David Sims]

It's actually tough to capture the list.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It is.

[David Sims]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

Flamethrower.

[David Sims]

Thank you. Flamethrower. And then she immediately is like, this is incredible.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I need to.

[David Sims]

Yes, you're right. It's not just because first she, you know, she's like, I want the thunder. You know, bring the thunder. Essentially. Show me how to use the guns. She uses the gun. She likes that. But then when she gets handed that flamethrower, she's like, okay. Okay.

[Marie Mareno]

I feel about about them how I guess, like, normal people are like, you know, when I say normal, like, in a derogatory way, feel about, like the Joker and Harley Quinn.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. Yes. I do feel like Quaritch and Varang are now officially my Joker and Harley Quinn. Yeah. Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

Anything. Anytime they show them, like, being giddy with each other. Like, there was a moment where he was, like, holding her as she was, like, shooting something and she was, like, smiling and I was like, wait. I love their love.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I also think there's something. It's such a basic concept. But the second he teased the idea of, like, the next movie is gonna have bad navi. You're like, holy. I've seen six hours of these guys being so principled and so severe and so disciplined. And you're telling me there's one who likes to up. And just watching Varang, like, do crazy and then laugh is pretty intoxicating.

[David Sims]

The tribe, the whole tribe's design, the paint, really scary.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They all look the way my father describes, like, any alternative teenager, like, growing up in the East Village. And he'd be like, I go to St. Mark's and there's the kid with the thing through the nose and the stuff all over his face. That's how he described, like, any punk kid who walked by. And I'd be like, he has, like, an earring. No, no, he's got all the stuff and the.

[Marie Mareno]

Does he know about Ben's earring?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He does.

[David Sims]

When you think about courage, I think he likes it. You know, Quaritch's job is to kill Jake Sully. Every time he meets Jake Sully, he thinks about killing him, maybe. But then Jake Sully's like, I got Spider. And he's like, got me this time, right? You know, like, argue.

[Marie Mareno]

I. I, like, every time. He's, like.

[David Sims]

Potent hostage. And instead they have, like, a weird meeting of the minds. Teta. Tet. And then he's like, I'll see you again. And so then he's like, I don't know. Maybe I'll just climb a volcano until I meet her. And then she's like, mind if I blow drugs in your face and, like, cut a line across your chest? And he's like, don't mind at all. Like, he's just. He's more open to things than Jake Sully was in some ways.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Let's dig into this. Okay? So he's down. Part of his, like, hatred of Jake Sully, obviously, is that he views him as a traitor. Right? But also, it's that, like, he can actually relate to Jake Sully more than he can any of the navi. Right.

[David Sims]

Jake is the only guy who's sort of like him.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Opposite side, right? It's. It's that, like, similar, like, Marine training. There's a similar psychology to. To them. It's. It's established in Quaritch's backstory. You know, he's got that crazy scar in the first movie, and it's like, he landed on this planet, and these creatures all almost killed him. And now he's like, I hate this place. This whole planet's dangerous. Right? And Varang has a little bit of this. Like, we were left to, like, almost die, and now we hate this whole thing. And both of them sort of feel like they're, like, living on borrowed time to a certain degree. Like, their existences are like, affronts to God, which they then, like, empower themselves in, like, feeling as, like, a sense of identity, especially when Quarch has literally died and been reborn. And there's this, like, sadistic part of them that is the thing that Court actually doesn't relate to anyone else in that he gets, like, such A clear kind of like, what has always felt like a somewhat sexually charged pleasure from the violence without it being overstated. And like, as you said, he's got all these other grunts who just like wear like Oakleys and go, look, I love guns. And Varang is like, God.

[David Sims]

And he's like, yeah, you get it.

[Marie Mareno]

They match each other's freak.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's like. But like, Quartz doesn't want. Quartz is just like, I'm a normal red blooded American. And they're like, Quartz. There's so much going on under the hood and it's what drives him so crazy about Jake Sully is like, Jake Sully is activated. A freak that he doesn't want to even have to think about. And Verang is like a healthier version of him. Feeling like there's a safe space to freak out.

[Marie Mareno]

I am so curious about Spider's mom.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[David Sims]

There's the one scene where Quarch talks.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

About her a little bit, that she was in the battle at the end of the first movie. She was like a copter pilot, Right, Sure. And is killed.

[David Sims]

Right, Right.

[Marie Mareno]

I'm like, what was her deal? Was she also like.

[David Sims]

I don't know. It's hard to reconcile because the Quaritch in the first movie is not horny at all. He's only horny for blowing up Hometree, you know, like, and he's. He. It's not in that character. Which is fine.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They hadn't gotten the notion that he's having. That he's already had any sort of pre existing physicalized relationship with someone else who is on that planet and is serving the same mission.

[Marie Mareno]

Isn't that like, frowned upon? Because I'm assuming if he's like the commander of everyone on base, then she'd be his subordinate. So like, what the.

[David Sims]

I don't know.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I don't know.

[David Sims]

Maybe she was a superior, potent, dynamic power dynamic.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I do kind of appreciate that. They don't like, do The Spider Man 3, like, cut in an actress who wasn't there in the first movie.

[David Sims]

Yeah, no, that would. That would suck.

[Marie Mareno]

I loved the moment in this movie where he and Spider are having that conversation when Spider's been captured and brought back to the base and he's telling, you know, Quaritch is telling him about his mom and is like, you know, you have me and her and you, you're, you know, you're a fighter or whatever. And then for a moment you're like, oh, are they really bonding? Because Spider asks for his dog tag and I'm like, oh, this is.

[David Sims]

This is like a next level kind of.

[Marie Mareno]

Oh, okay. So they're going to, like, develop.

[David Sims]

But then Spider's being smart.

[Marie Mareno]

Spider just uses the dog tag as, like, as a fucking look.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Screwdriver escape the story.

[David Sims]

Like, Quaritch kind of gets it in a way in that he goes to Varang, meets her on her terms, gets some hot navi poontang, and, like, really locks in with those guys. And of course, I just love the whole dynamic of car at the first, you know, initially being, yep, I'll go get Jake Sully for you. And by this movie, he's like, these are 50 Ashavi. They hang out with me now. They're gonna make camper. And he Falco's like, what is going on their tents here? Like, what the. He's like, don't worry about it. I gave them all free passes. But whenever he sees Jake, Jake is like, dude, you can live on this planet and tap into the magic of it in a way that others can't. You're a navi now.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, you.

[David Sims]

There's a whole world for you to understand, if you want to understand. Quar is like, no, thank you. You know, like, he can't quite do it, but Spider does do it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It.

[Marie Mareno]

He loves a Na' Vi woman.

[David Sims]

Well, that's what I'm saying. So there's some movement. But the fundamental thing, I almost thought he was gonna die at the end of this movie. Instead, he just once again is like, oh, and, like, jumps off a thing and we'll see.

[Marie Mareno]

We think that Varang is gonna cat, like, catch him. She's gonna, like, fly.

[David Sims]

I ain't worried about Quarry. He ain't dead.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It is one of the things that would make this film the most frustrating if they don't make four and five is he has like, a Disney villain falls off a cliff into a cloud thing where you kept waiting for them to cut to, like, him landing on something or brain catching him in the way that the last movie does, where you think he's maybe left for dead. And then Spider pulls him up onto the rock and instead this movie just leaves him as like a complete, like, dot, dot. Ben, I like what's happening on your computer screen right now. I thought.

[David Sims]

But one point was just that I thought Quaritch might die just in this sort of like, he never quite got it. You know what I mean? Like, that at the end of the day, the planet would betray him in some way, and it would be like if you'd only kind of, like, really Listen to your navi side. Now. Maybe that's his ultimate arc. I think his ultimate arc is that he gives up on being an RDA guy.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right. Cameron's already made it clear that he will always be the dominant villain of this franchise.

[David Sims]

But.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But that moment where it almost feels like they're going to do a last Jedi, like, maybe we have to team up together moment where they're both. Both feeling a kind of parental protection towards Spider, and their fight almost kills Spider and they both have to, like, work together to save him in a.

[David Sims]

Moment, which is interesting. But then. And then. Right. My point about Spider is just. Spider does care about Pandora much more than his dad. He's sort of intrigued by his dad, maybe, but, like, much more intrigued by Pandora by being part of his people. He gets it. He, like, locks in. Now, does Jack Champion's performance always convey this?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So Tiri has this early scene. No, no, I want to get. I'm building up to this. Okay. Natiri has this early scene where she's just like, we gotta drop him enough. He's gone. He is like, a danger. And this is even before he becomes, like, a hybrid. Right. And then Jake, later in the movie is like, you were right.

[Marie Mareno]

Great.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And it hurts me to say it, but you're right. Like, nothing good will come of him.

[David Sims]

Existing even after Spider saves him.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes. Right. And he's like, I consider him my son.

[David Sims]

And yet, well, I guess Jermaine Clements also saves him.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

A lot of people save him.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And he, like, takes Spider out to the woods, and it is this, like, incredibly bizarre Mice and Men scene where he's like, where are we going? He's like, just keep walking. And then he, like, brings him to a rock and makes him kneel down. And you see Spider process it, and he takes out his blade and he's, like, ready to murder him.

[David Sims]

He's gonna do it. And it's the binding of Isaac.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Spider has this acknowledgment of, like, I get where you're coming from. Right.

[David Sims]

I. I am an abomination.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right. And Jake is admitting how much performance he loves him. So here's the thing.

[David Sims]

Doesn't totally work for me.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I think you said this when we walked out of the theater, Marie. You were like, the arc of these movies is kind of mirroring my relationship to Spider, which is, like, increasingly unlike. Like, do I kind of care about this guy?

[David Sims]

And.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And he's not great in this, but I was sort of like, I'm acclimating to him more. And then this is the scene, which I do think is dramatically so interesting. And I think Worthington crushes where I'm watching it, and I'm like, he's just not totally stepping up to Worthington is the stakes of this scene. And anytime they ask him to do anything a little more complicated, it feels a little. My mean joke after the movie was like, isn't this James Cameron, the guy who notoriously will yell at people for hours until something is perfect? And this is like, the performance that made the final cut in the film. And I think you look at, like, Edward Furlong and Terminator 2, who can be, like, wooden and odd and is obviously, like, very green in that movie, but has, like, such a distinct energy and vibe and charisma and conveys, like, the most important things that character needs to. And sometimes Spider just feels a little bit like a placeholder performance of an idea.

[David Sims]

There's an innocence to him that sort of helped that scene for me. The binding of Six. You know, the scene where he's going to sacrifice him because he's such a sweetie, I guess. And you're sort of like. You do feel for him.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The stuff with Kiri, I think, is when he's the best. The monkey boy stuff, it's so crazy.

[David Sims]

Just Sigourney Weaver in this shirtless.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So. And he's like 12. When they shot these, that was this big thing where he was. The productions got shut down during the lockdown.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And Cameron had to write this letter to, like, the New Zealand government. And he's like, this kid's body is changing every hour. Puberty is like running like a bullet train through this kid. If I don't get footage in the next two months. Months, everything we've shot so far will be thrown out and we're back to square one. And I noticed there are sequences in this movie where Spider looks entirely CGI in a way that made me think it must have been stuff they couldn't reshoot.

[David Sims]

It's possible.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And it was part of why they maybe had to get, like, two and three done together. Because there's maybe a time jump happening. Four and five. Because Jack Champion showing up in other movies now. And he looks different. And I also feel like I have liked him more in the stuff I have seen him in recently. These are still performances that were shot, like, largely five years ago.

[David Sims]

Yeah. But, like, that scene still moved me. I thought, you know, Neytiri and. And Jake, you know, like, the. The. Their realizations emotionally clicked for me. So I was moved. I agree. Even despite it's like, oh, shit. I guess so.

[Marie Mareno]

Okay, tell me, daddy.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I also think in certain ways, and.

[David Sims]

I'm saying that to Quaritch, you raised some good points.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Blade to his neck. In certain ways, it helps the movie that he's a little annoying because it does. The whole thing is like, you can't like him too much.

[David Sims]

Right. He needs to be kind of a pain in the ass.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But I just think anytime it becomes, like, a slightly more complicated emotional dynamic, it has a little bit of, like, Clint Eastwood working with young actors feeling where I'm not even, like, really throwing him under the bus as much as I'm just like, I. I don't know if he was really helped to get where he needed to go.

[David Sims]

Maybe not entirely. Yeah. Which is okay. Should we talk about whale stuff?

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, I was about to.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's like.

[David Sims]

I feel like another whole little separate storyline.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So Payakan is like, AOC and the rest of the Tulkun are like a bunch of truck shoemakers.

[David Sims]

Right. He goes to try to notice the glasses were at the bottom.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Below all five of their eyes. He goes to try to find his lost clan. And there's the one he finds whose eyes have been gouged.

[Marie Mareno]

Oh, my God, she's been blinded. She's got harpoons and in her. It was so sad.

[David Sims]

This is the kind of stuff very.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Affecting, really upsets me and kind of reintroduces us. Like, see, this is, like, the savagery. This is why we, like, need to fight. We need to defend ourselves. We cannot be passive.

[Marie Mareno]

We also kind of need to talk a bit about Loach's arc in that the movie opens with him talking about how, you know, he's grieving his brother and all of the guilt that he feels. He feels like it was his fault.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And he's dealing with some. Did the wrong kid die? Sort of. Right.

[Marie Mareno]

And there is, like, that classic dynamic of, like, the young son wanting to impress the father, Jake Sully, not really wanting to view him as an equal. You know, you're still. You know, you're not ready for this yet. You're not allowed to touch guns. You're not allowed to do this. You need to stay safe.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And he's like, no, I want to.

[Marie Mareno]

You know, I gotta do this. But he, like, really sort of finds his voice through his advocacy for Payakan.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. I also. I think that speaks to, like, the very personal thing Cameron's working through in these movies. A certain type of very extreme, very successful person who doesn't really know how to help guide children to be anything other than what he is. Like, this is how I've succeeded and how I function, and all of my guidance I provide for you is through that prism. And the second movie is so much Jake Sully being like. Like, do I need to, like, chill the out? And so I think he's struggling with knowing how to guide Lo' ak in this because he's like, I don't know if, like, telling you what has worked for me is the best advice.

[David Sims]

Well, it's also like, his first son really responded to Jake's parenting method, which was treating him like he was part of the army. And his first son, like, locked right in and was clearly good at it or whatever. And Lok's just not good at following orders and maybe has some adhd. You know, he's always forgetting his comms necklace. You know what I mean? Like, he just needs a slightly alternative kind of, like, approach. And Jake's kind of like, I just. What about be a Marine? Doesn't, like, translate for you? You know, he's just not the best.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Loock's like, building a gaming PC, and he's like, what.

[David Sims]

What are you gonna do with this?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

What is the career that comes out?

[David Sims]

And, like, meanwhile, Natiri is, like, gazing off in the distance and going like, yeah, because she's upset, right? She's not totally there for.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She's plugging into everything and then, like, having seizures. Tuke is the easy one.

[David Sims]

Yeah, Tuke's pretty chill. It's nice.

[Marie Mareno]

She didn't get a lot to do.

[David Sims]

Well, you know what? They gave Tuke one thing to do, which is when Kiri has to plug into AWA to get AWA going, and then Spider joins in, you know, to help, and you're like. And then Tuke's like, you know what? I'm gonna throw my plate.

[Marie Mareno]

I didn't realize that that Tuke is. I guess she's the girl in Life of Chuck who he dances with at the school dance.

[David Sims]

I wanted to shoot that scene into the sun. I wanted to write a letter of an apology to Zach Braff. When I saw that fucking scene, I. And I was relatively into the first act of Life of Chuck.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

Oh, I was very into the first act.

[David Sims]

This is interesting.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I think the first act is a masterpiece. I think that movie is 30 minutes long. That makes my 10 10.

[David Sims]

It's. It was very. And I was like, oh, I want to see where this goes. And they were like, it's going here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's going here. And I was like, well, now I, now I'm very upset.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

What an odd film. And what an odd, like, oh, it won the Toronto Audience Choice Awards.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Then it, like, sits on the shelf for nine months and then it comes out and people are like, what the is tiff.

[Marie Mareno]

They were smoking that.

[David Sims]

Those gooey kind of movies. These will translate. And it's a gooey movie. It's all I can say. I don't know. I, I what came second? Let's see. The.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'm sure what people thought was gonna.

[David Sims]

Emilia Perez and then Anora was the second runner up. Now, Anor obviously is the best movie of those three, but I guess it's the spikiest, you know? And, like, remember Emilia Perez? Talk about a hallucination. I swear to God, someone must have.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Like, fucking plugged their brain into the back of my head without permission.

[David Sims]

Just the six months of only Oscar voters being like, this is the best movie I've ever seen. Everyone else being like, you what?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

What are you talking about?

[David Sims]

Are you talking? Yes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It really opened my eyes to what? What did this movie communicate to you?

[David Sims]

Yeah, it would be hard if this happened to you. If what happened?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Explain. That's. That's the craziest thing about that movie is people were like, it really made me understand the issues. And you're like, what?

[David Sims]

And then anyone involved with anything related to the issues was like, it understands nothing about any of the issues. I want to punch movie transgender. Not. It's not on the level.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She smells like cigars and guacamole. Her daughter sings that to her.

[Marie Mareno]

What I was gonna say is, I think, you know, Emilia Perez just exists to get Zoe Saldana an Oscar because they were gonna. They were never going to give it to her for playing nature.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Watching this movie, I was just like. And was talking to our friend Mal about this, but I'm like, yeah. In my mind, I've just shifted it over to like, of course, Academy or award winner Zoe Saldana, who won her Oscar for playing Neteri. I'm fine with her having an Oscar on a shelf. I love her and I will just never think about the performance that she won it for again. Man to woman, Navi to man.

[David Sims]

There's a lot more interesting dynamics at play in the Avatar universe.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I would say that really did feel like a mass hallucination fully. Do you remember this? It was at Nighthawk Movie Trivia. We should thank God. Yes.

[Marie Mareno]

That was.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. Shay Fillmore and Kevin Cecil, who run the Nighthawk trivia and are the fucking best. And the Nighthawk Trivia if you're ever in New York, if you live in New York, if you live in any neighboring area, if you're ever visiting. Twice a month they run the best movie Trivia night. And they let us host once. And people said it was easy.

[Marie Mareno]

David, your round was real hard.

[David Sims]

My round was a little too hard. I do apologize for that. I think I, I overestimated all of us might have in my, in my topic.

[Marie Mareno]

Well, I did the same. I thought that mine was easy as well.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And yours was really good, I thought.

[Marie Mareno]

Thank you. I thought mine was like a classic, like trivia I did. For those who don't know, I did a round of Penny Marshall trivia, you.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Know, to our next miniseries.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah. But it really did. Did kind of hammer the point home that we probably should cover her because people are sleeping on this one.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Let me be clear.

[David Sims]

It's interesting filmography.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's a long running bit to say that she's coming next.

[David Sims]

And that bit's over. She's coming next.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She's coming next. But that bit is not rooted in the idea that we would never cover.

[David Sims]

No, it's rooted in a dumb Reddit joke. You made that. Marie and I so angry.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

No, you're forgetting that it predates that by so many years.

[David Sims]

I, I am.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It was the first time Ben and I went on the best show.

[David Sims]

Oh, see.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Oh, wow.

[David Sims]

I don't listen to, no offense to our great friend Tom Sharply. I don't listen to the best show.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

This was like eight years ago. And I forget what prompted me to make it. But Sharply was doing his antagonistic bit. What Tom was like, tell people what's coming next. And I, I just, like, I picked Penny Marshall. And that was early enough in the run of the show when the idea of doing Penny Marshall next would have seemed crazy in terms of just like how many people we still had to get to. And then I have revived it into a Reddit bit that drove you crazy. But Penny Marshall will be a good series.

[David Sims]

Sure. We'll do her sometime. I don't know.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And that's because every time we cover a female filmmaker, people are really normal.

[David Sims]

The Reddit gets more normal. One can say it's kind of a potent. Whatever. You got this, David, you got this. I don't, I don't. I'm landing.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

What we're saying. Oh, trivia night. Kevin did a question, like a round one question, which is essentially supposed to be general knowledge. Easier round, like over the summer. Huh?

[Marie Mareno]

I got it right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Less than four months after the Academy Awards, Ceremony that was named the movie with these four character names. And it was Amelia Perez. And most of the room got it wrong. And he was like. I correctly gauged that this is the last possible moment you could have made this a question that anyone could have gotten right.

[David Sims]

Rita Castro, Jesse Del Monte, Gustavo Brun. I'm just naming other characters.

[Marie Mareno]

I think it was Rita that.

[David Sims]

Rita.

[Marie Mareno]

Emilia Perez clearly was not one of the list of things, but it was Rita that I got it from. But yeah, that was.

[David Sims]

It's really wild because Jacques Main movies I liked.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's made many films I like a tremendous amount.

[David Sims]

He also made Emilia Perez.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And just quickly, if I can just lead our whole audience in a sing along. Amelia. This works, right? If you just start the song into the mic and assume that everyone else is going to join you.

[David Sims]

The Delta joke.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Remember the thing at the Oscars?

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah. Remember when she. When the lady was like talking about butterflies or something?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I thought that was a good bit and I thought that was going to redeem.

[David Sims]

I don't remember. Wait, was this something?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

One of the winners best song.

[David Sims]

They tried to lead the whole audience singing along and they.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The audience and they're like, we don't know the words even. We think the songs are bad in this.

[David Sims]

And we voted for you. Right. And she's the lady who did the nice rat song in Ratatouille and she.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Did the song from the SNL French teenagers sketches.

[David Sims]

Oh, that's fun.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

All her other songs are good. I own several of her albums. I listen to them.

[David Sims]

Several.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And now quickly, if our listeners would just join me and sing Emil.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Avatar. Fire and Ash.

[David Sims]

Fire and Ash. This film, you know, it's. It's getting rolled out by Disney with all I feel the appropriate fanfare. It was screened for the awards voters much. Which is why I saw it early. It's why you guys saw it pretty early. Like, it's not like Way of Water where we saw it like week of release. It's the Christmas movie, right? I mean, like, what's it going up against? Marty supreme and Anaconda.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Jesus Christ.

[Marie Mareno]

Wait, Anaconda is coming out this year?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, it comes a Christmas.

[David Sims]

It is one of the strangest Christmas programming decisions.

[Marie Mareno]

I haven't even seen a trailer for it.

[David Sims]

Well, you can watch the trailer if you want to have three bad minutes in your life.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Marie. I know you love it when eyelines don't match, right?

[Marie Mareno]

It's my favorite thing in the world.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, get ready for that happening in a $60 million.

[Marie Mareno]

Does anyone do like a Weird Cajun accent.

[David Sims]

No, they should be. That already sounds better.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The premise is so convoluted.

[David Sims]

It's like they go to the jungle to remake Anaconda.

[Marie Mareno]

Go for it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You know that, like, the story of the kids who, like, remade Raiders, the lost art. So this movie is about four nerdy kids who grew up remaking Anaconda.

[Marie Mareno]

Son Voight's performance exists in the world.

[David Sims]

Yes, yes. They want to pay homage to.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They're the biggest fans. Anaconda Happen or whatever. And as children, they made a home video remake of Anaconda. Of course. Four childhood best friends. Jack Black, Paul Rudd, Steve Zahn, and Tundiwe Newton.

[Marie Mareno]

And they were kids in the 90s. What?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes, sure. And they're like, you know what we should do? We should go to the real jungle where they shot Anaconda and remake it again with better production values.

[David Sims]

Ben is, like, diagonal in his chair right now.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And then it's like almost a Tropic thunder thing where they get too deep in Snakes are real. And they were like, we thought we were making a movie, but now the snakes are actually trying to kill us.

[David Sims]

You know what movie is wacky?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

What?

[David Sims]

This is Luis Yosa Anaconda.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

That movie's crazy.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Have you ever seen Anacondas Search for the blood or.

[David Sims]

I've never. I never searched for the Blood. Orin.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It is a great title.

[David Sims]

It is a great title, and they. They should use that more.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Fantastic Four Search for the Blood Orin.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Everything about that trailer, I, I. It. I was struggling to understand what the concept of the movie was or over how loud I was sighing at every single reveal in the trailer. It's the least excited I could possibly be for a Saving Silverman re team. Oh, God.

[David Sims]

This.

[Marie Mareno]

This year, we got really into Saving Silverman. Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's a great movie. We should screen it.

[David Sims]

I need to watch it first.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, you do.

[Marie Mareno]

Oh, it's so good. David, you should do that over the. The holiday break.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. Let's just flashback in a decade of dreams to earlier this year when I said, saving Silverman's pretty good, and you Saving Silverman is not good.

[David Sims]

I was. I was. It was truly like. You were like, as we all know, like toxic fumes should be breathed. And I was like, wait, I thought we all agreed 20 years ago that was bad.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Erlich has seen it, like, three times now. Yes, successfully. Silverman people. And by the way, so many people, like big, strong men came up to me, tears in their eyes, and we're like, Griffin, by the way, you're right about Saving Silverman. You're brave to say it. Yeah, I've been waiting for someone to say it in your position with your.

[Marie Mareno]

Power, and I feel like. Have you seen. Have you seen Song Song Blue yet?

[David Sims]

No, I. I hear everyone is basically like, the first half's pretty charming, and you're like, huh, why didn't this, like, go to tiff? Why didn't this. You know. And then the second half is, like, incredibly depressing and maudlin and kind of lost everybody. I have a screener. I guess I could watch that.

[Marie Mareno]

Well, you should double feature it with Saving Silverman Enough because they both are about Neil Diamonds. Saving s about Neil diamond is in saving.

[David Sims]

I also don't care about Neil Diamond. We're almost done.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Look, I got so much more to say. You don't need to care about Neil Diamond. I am just waiting for.

[David Sims]

Do you have more to say about Avatar? Yeah, let's do that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

We barely talked about Brain Griff.

[David Sims]

We're getting closer to I have to go time, so. All right. What do you want to talk about with Avatar, Fire and Ash, not saving Silverman, which we can. We can table till 2026. It's not going anywhere.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Can I ask you right now?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Will you commit to watching Savoring Silver at some point?

[David Sims]

Absolutely.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

In the calendar year of 2020?

[David Sims]

I'll watch it right now. Hey, let's.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Hey, this is a workspace.

[David Sims]

Let's see if it's on.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Some raunchy things happen in the.

[David Sims]

I'm gonna have to rent it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Can we.

[David Sims]

Stinks.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

If we do a screening of Saving Silverman, you will consider it if we can get a 35 to watch saving.

[David Sims]

Silverman tomorrow on Apple. If we do a screening, could we do it of a movie I like or at least care about a little bit? Yes, we can. But I mean, I first. Can I watch Saving Silverman just to see what I think of it?

[Marie Mareno]

You're gonna. You're gonna love it.

[David Sims]

I'm not opposed to reading.

[Marie Mareno]

I'm just saying plays the varying of saving.

[David Sims]

I'm aware.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Amanda. Amanda Pete is the most varying coded character that has existed in a pre Fire and Ash world largely considered a.

[David Sims]

Somewhat sexist portrayal of a character.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, I would argue the film is almost kind of a satirical take on the inherent misogyny of the sex comedy of the late 90s and early 2000s. It's twisting it to such a gnarly, gnarled, kind of.

[David Sims]

Did all the big strong people say that to you too?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. Many, many smart People. Richard Brody said that to me. He hugged me really, really tight, whispered into my ear. You get it.

[Marie Mareno]

Was Richard Brody at your Avatar screening? David?

[David Sims]

I'm not sure if Richard was there. I mean, I just saw him at the Critics Circle, of course, and he was as good, as lovely as ever.

[Marie Mareno]

Did you have a nice day?

[David Sims]

For me, it's now that I'm not the chair anymore, and I'm just back to counting. I'm always like, I can't wait. I'm so excited for the counting. And then I forget that it's like, there is no break for the counter because I'm just, like, doing math. And then, like, the category's over, and I'm like, okay, I have to start, like, prepping the next category. But it's always fun. It's so. It's so cool to see how it develops.

[Marie Mareno]

I did hear that. Can I. Can I say about, like. Like, people getting vote? Like, performances getting votes?

[David Sims]

Sure, Maybe. What. What do you want to say?

[Marie Mareno]

That Una Chaplin as Varang got some supporting actress. She.

[David Sims]

She got. She got some votes. Not. Not enough, in my opinion.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But here's the genuine thing for me. I love the world of these movies.

[David Sims]

Good to know. Be weird if you didn't.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I. I just. I love everything happening within them. I am endlessly fascinated by anything else he wants to tell us, and I am somewhat. Look, he has put enough of it out there that I think Way of Water won some people over who were more skeptical to the first movie. I don't think this movie will convert any new viewers.

[David Sims]

No. At this point, it's basically like, did you like Way of Water? You'll probably buy by this, right? Have you never been into Avatar? This will not win you over at all.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right. Ben and I were talking to the great Bob Marshall last night, who we ran into, and he was like, saying, like, have you guys seen Fire and Ash? We were like, yeah, rules. And he was like, really? I thought it was a mess. And I was like, what do you think of the first two? And he's like, I've never gotten them. And I'm like, yeah, this one is admittedly more of a mess than the first two. But to me, it's like they open the doors to the all you can eat buffet. And we're just like, how much Avatar do you want to put on your plate? And I don't care if all the, like, items on the plate aren't totally meshing together, because I'm like, I'll just eat a little Mac and cheese. And then I'll have like a slice of pizza and then I'll have an egg roll. I like all of these ice cream.

[David Sims]

Why not?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Absolutely.

[Marie Mareno]

That sounds great.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I like everything they make at this restaurant. And if you don't like this restaurant, you don't like the decor, you don't like the music they play. Like at this point it's your fault for going through the door.

[David Sims]

It's the Rainforest Cafe actually is the. It's like. Do you want to go into the world of the Rainforest Cafe?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I do.

[David Sims]

Some might find it cheesy.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Some might find a little over the top. Yes. Not me.

[Marie Mareno]

Do you think they're gonna have Varang at the Disney park or is she too.

[David Sims]

I'm sure.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Great question. Well, so they don't. This was one of the areas that John Lando really took the lead on in terms of like maintaining the integrity of Avatar in the parks. Right. And the idea is that it's like you are human tourist visiting Pandora and mostly the people you interact with are like Norm Spellman esque, kind of Grace Augustine.

[Marie Mareno]

The other human scientists.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Exactly.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Be too up for you.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And his big thing is like we don't want walk around Navy because that will like destroy the magic of the thing. You like are not gonna be able to get the scale right. Like someone walking on stilts. They won't be able to animate. It will like diffuse it. So you don't really seen a V other than inside the rides. And you're mostly dealing with like the ecology of it. They announced that they're doing an expansion to Disneyland at Disney World. It is basically the first movie and like sent around the floating mountains and like the mother tree. And at Disneyland apparently it's going to be more way of water. And the big question is, will you be able to see and or touch Payakan? I would like to, which is what I really want. But they have more representations of the animals and the tech and the flora and fauna. And then it's like the rides will have within those controlled environments. But like Jake Sully's not there, Natiri's not there, Varang's not there. Which is a shame because if Farang were there.

[David Sims]

No, it's not a shame because then you would never leave Disney.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I would be leaving a. A griffin shaped hole in the door of our office.

[David Sims]

You would try to move in there.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I would be arrested running on foot to Orlando.

[Marie Mareno]

Is Spider there? They could have. They could have Spider.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's a good question. I think their big thing Is like, we, we don't want to do anything that clashes with the narratives of the movies, especially because they're ongoing. So you're dealing with like original characters here and it's more just like the world of Pandora etc. But I mean, I'd love to meet Spider and just be like, what is your deal?

[David Sims]

I don't know, man.

[Marie Mareno]

We're annoyed by him but like if we met him, we'd probably be like, oh, you're sweet.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I. I thought he was good in Freaky Tales and it was one of those things. My favorite movie to invoke that doesn't exist. But I was just like, who's this guy? Why does he like look familiar? And it's like a five years old rejection.

[David Sims]

I mean he's in Scream 6, I think, and he's totally fine in it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Is there anything else we want to talk about with Avatar?

[Marie Mareno]

We, I mean, did we talk enough about Payakan on trial?

[David Sims]

He wasn't. We. We did this Chuck Schumer joke like three times. I feel like we're all just worried. But the answer is there's much we haven't talked about because we only saw it once. And I'm like, you know, just kind of like casting around for. But like we.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Perhaps my favorite moment in the movie is. I think, think it's the matriarch just goes ham. And this is where people are like, oh. The movie just repeats all the same from the end of the second one. And it's like, oh, she like flops on top of one of the boats.

[David Sims]

The big boat though.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, she's the biggest tul. And you're like, oh, it's the same beat. And then she's like, I'm not done flopping. And she flops like 10 times. She just keeps destroying them.

[David Sims]

I'm very in favor of ton. Smashing things. Just good eat scores. Because they sort of drag him down to the depths. Like they grab him in their mouths and go all the way down.

[Marie Mareno]

They stopped and rush him.

[David Sims]

Yeah. The injured ones. Yeah. The blind one gets revenge.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

My hope is that Scoresby comes back in the next movie and he's got like a robotic lower body.

[David Sims]

Yeah, right. He's like, you can't kill me. I'm just like half a face. Evalco did die and I. Right. And I, I was a little. I was either disappointed that she didn't get much of a death scene or a little baffled if she had survived. Survived. She says abandoned ship. But then you see the whole thing kind of blowing up. And I was kind of like, I don't think she made it, but I don't know. That was one thing where I was kind of like, kind of rooting for an Ed Falco going, you know, sipping her coffee while everything blows up around.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Her, you know, but like, that and the Quaritch just, like falling into a cloud thing makes me wonder if Cameron's like, if I make four and five, they're still alive. And if not, I, like, didn't want to leave them unresolved. So I left their death kind of. Kind of ambiguous, where it's like, maybe they just didn't make it.

[David Sims]

Trying to think. Like, I think the action sequence I loved the most was the first big one with the airships. Just because of like, that was new and different and cool. I mean, I like the big final sequence plenty, but you know what I mean?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Like, and the airships to our earlier point are like these giant, like, flying jellyfish, squids that are being used as, like, the balloons and hot air balloons. Basketball gets underneath.

[Marie Mareno]

She, like, shot like a fire arrow.

[David Sims]

Into them and they're like, skidding down the balloons.

[Marie Mareno]

That was crazy. Just some random stuff. I love the, like, the bone sculptures in the ash world.

[David Sims]

And that was in 28 years later.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They have the big emotional where CGH.

[Marie Mareno]

Pounders, like, I think they're in both.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You got to tell Kiri what she is. And they explain to her that it's like, it's the best for understand you're a God. To go back to your earlier thing where you said love it like Anakin Skywalker. Anakin Skywalker. Of course, I subscribe to the theory that he is a baby conjured by Darth Plagueis the Wise. No, if we're talking seriously.

[David Sims]

Oh, yeah, of course. I feel like that is that Darth Plagueis made the Force make him right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Versus the narrative he is told, which is like, the Force just like, created a baby.

[David Sims]

No, that they were right. There was some nefarious but curious.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Almost like there is a slight kind of Jesus element of like. Like God has decided he needs a physical form to be able to interact all around people.

[David Sims]

And then it's like AWA couldn't revive Grace, but could do that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And there's this recurring thing of, like the. The seizure thing from the previous movie of every time she tries to connect. There's a firewall, there's a blockage. And then you have the moment where we said her siblings come and, like, protect her. And then as it's happening, you have this, like, it almost feels like the dream child from the end of Two. That's exactly what it looked like, where there's this, like, being big, white, like sort of like structure, and then it slowly starts rotating and you realize it's ahead and AWA is going to look at you and maybe talk to you, and you get to like, three quarter profile and then they get pushed out of it. But this notion of AWA having like, any kind of physical representation felt very enticing to me. The. The idea that AWA is someone you could have like a traditional conversation with, with, even if it is, dare I say it, just an avatar she is creating.

[David Sims]

So, yeah, just a representation.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Consciousness can be absorbed by other people.

[David Sims]

Yeah, right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Of how to reckon with God. But at the end, like, they have found this way to plug into the great consciousness, the collective of everyone they've lost.

[David Sims]

I think they've always had that. I think it's more that we're seeing that, like, that's what plugging into the Tree of Souls is. And it's. But of course, now Spider can do it too. No, that I was satisfied that Jake and that the family was together, that there wasn't some bigger hammer blow. No more sacrifices. I mean, yes, we lose Kate Winslet and maybe her daughter died, right? Her son.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

No.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's the kids. Who with.

[David Sims]

Yeah, they're. They're kind of mean in the first one. You know, there were some more secondary characters that. That died.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

If there is a main story concern in this movie, it's the idea of, like, the principle. If you're willing to surrender your family, then, like, what morality? Like, what are your values as a human being? Right. Like, the idea of killing Spider as like a strategic chess move to, like, protect your king is like. Yeah, but if you kill yourself, then you're just.

[David Sims]

You're gonna live with that forever and you're. You're disobeying anywho, you're. You're going against all this natural order, like, and that's what Natiri realizes, which I really like. I think she plays that really well. Jermaine Clement. It's a recycling of Delete Brow's arc. Nice to see Delete Brown.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Oh, I'm always happy to see him literally show up on screen, collect a chat residuals.

[David Sims]

But, you know, like. But Jermaine Clement having the moral moment. But he's funny and, like, he played the jailbreak well. Like, that was cute.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Still incredibly funny to imagine Mark Maron having to play those same scenes.

[David Sims]

So you're like Jake Sully. Huh?

[Marie Mareno]

We have the whole like Jake writing.

[David Sims]

Oh to Rick Mato.

[Marie Mareno]

And that was bringing together all of the clans, which I like did with. I did kind of want to.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's fascinating because it's like that is the thing that's almost a carbon copy.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And Loak is narrating it and the narration seems almost identical where it's like he got on like Taruk and then.

[Marie Mareno]

He like went from like clan to clan. The big.

[David Sims]

The evolution, of course is now they get the Tulkun too.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[David Sims]

Did I miss that? He kind of was like, I'm not Taruk Maktou anymore in the last one or something.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, that was a big thing in the last.

[Marie Mareno]

He's like when they leave, right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He like heads over. I forget what the other term is.

[David Sims]

Because they're getting in and off, on and off. Those things like Honda Civics, you know, like after the first movie's like, you're bonded to your guy. And then in this one, everyone's like, is there a random bird I can plug into a fire?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

We covered this in the Way of Water episode. But basically he was holding two positions. Like, one was the west duty position of basically like the chief of the tribe. Right. And then the other one was like Taruk Makto, which is more of a closer to being like the pope.

[David Sims]

Yeah. That's like an honorable right to all Navi.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes. Right. And there's like a wilder responsibility and power that comes dangerous. And he like hands over the chief title to someone else, steps down from Turkmecto and is like, no one should be Turkmecto. Right, right.

[David Sims]

It's too, too, too scary.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But it does. That is the one area in the film where I'm just like, really? You're like gonna pull this move and then just sort of be like, yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

And then, you know, some stuff in the movie which I do, I don't love, but that's okay.

[David Sims]

But you know, someone said some version of that, like, why didn't we see? And I'm like, I don't know, man. It's a three hour, 20 minute movie with like 30 characters and they're all doing things and you just have to make choices at a certain point as to what's going to be in the movie.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They've been publishing all these like comics, miniseries, Dark Horse that are all basically things that Cameron cut out of the script.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Like, they're not just like assigning writers to come up with like expanded universe. Like, Cameron's like this was like a 30 page chunk that I just didn't have room for. So I'll like hand it over to a comics writer and go like, do you want to get 12 issues out of this? There's so much stuff that I'm not.

[David Sims]

Going to read that some of them are good. Maybe I will. Maybe I will. Maybe it'll make another video game. They made a avatar the game.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

There's one now. Frontiers of Pandora. It's rad as hell.

[David Sims]

Should I play it?

[Marie Mareno]

Wait, is it.

[David Sims]

What are you doing?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I was messaging you this when I was playing it. Got into a game in the last couple of games.

[Marie Mareno]

Okay, I. I do remember this.

[David Sims]

It's so crazy how these things come out and God knows this must have cost a fortune to make.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's like a AAA game that seems done.

[David Sims]

Everyone's just like, okay, yeah, right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It was neither like a colossal flop nor like a total success. And there's still. They just did like a major DLC update. You fly around and they've done like, like season pass. Like every six months there's an new major story arc.

[David Sims]

Let's get the bundle. So Ben sent a bundle of McFarland toys.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Excuse me, that's not his name. His name is Todd T Dog Mac.

[David Sims]

Including a Varang. Patreon Lore, you can get, obviously you can get Quaritch, you can get Jake, but the Varang has like her default face. She's going like this. But she's also got one that's kind of like this. So you can swap her head out to have her be a little more nice, I guess.

[Marie Mareno]

Yes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. Also, can we call up Ray Zalinsky quickly before this package arrives? I want to use his ray to like embiggen that Varang action figure, if you know what I'm saying.

[David Sims]

And so Ray Zinski.

[Marie Mareno]

Oh my God, that took me. That was from Honey Shrunk.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The kids. Honey, I blew up the kids.

[David Sims]

Right, right. So you want his. His ray from the second film that made things. And then what do you do with the big toy way? Well, I think Griffin's going to do something a little. Oh no. Oh, okay.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I will merely d. My cat.

[David Sims]

Oh, okay.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Go, my lady. And respectfully keep.

[David Sims]

I do think Avatar 4 should have the first Na' VI lady short king, human boy sex relationship.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Hold on one second. Let me just email my manager quickly.

[David Sims]

You know what I mean? Like, like this nine foot tall woman walks in with a. A five foot eight guy.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

David, slower. I'm just trying to transcribe.

[Marie Mareno]

This isn't that. But isn't that what's happening with Kiri and Spider a little bit?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

They have a kiss.

[David Sims]

They do have a little kiss. Oh, sweet. Sort of. Of course, Kiri isn't full height yet, so she's still kind of like, yeah, Spider is size.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And Sicorni's so good.

[David Sims]

She's fantastic. I. I nominated her for Way of Water. She's great in this one too. Yeah. I was just kind of like, there's nothing like this performance.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

No.

[David Sims]

And in the last one in a.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Movie, so shocking because for years he was so mum on how he was bringing her back. And then it's like, she's playing a teenager. What are you talking about? And then there was the sort of like, novelty factor of, holy shit, this is a good performance in this. You just kind of like take it, like, you accept it where. And then every like 30 minutes, I'd be like, right. That's like Sigourney Weaver playing a child.

[David Sims]

And she says in that, you know, little preamble video that about no AI. Like, she's like, yeah, because of this, I can play a teenager. And you're like, yeah, that's what this is for. For like crazy swings like this. Like, this weird technology is for this.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's. This is what I said when we walked out of the theater. It's what I put my letterbox log. It is easily the best Avatar film I've seen in the last three years. And that's, that's, that's my ultimate takeaway. If you like Avatar movies, it's the best one of 2025 and better than anything that was released in 24 or 23. 3.

[David Sims]

It's a movie where I thought I might watch it and be like, that's great. And I'm glad James made these.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And maybe it's time for him to make something else. I don't know. Instead, I watched and I was like, I think I need Avatar 4 announced. Like, pretty soon. Like, I think I need him to be back in the lab.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I was getting itchy.

[David Sims]

Yeah. And I think I need a couple more of these.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'm. I'm worried.

[David Sims]

Versus the. Hey, if James Cameron wants my old joke, wants to make Avatar movies, then I want to see him now. I'm like, james, I think I want you to make more. I don't think I want you to be. Use your powers to melt my face with Hiroshima.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Like, no, beyond that, I'm also like, james, you sure you can wrap this up in two more?

[David Sims]

Right?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Feel free to, like, Stretch out.

[David Sims]

Doing a taffy.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Doing a taffy pole. We're recording this pretty early.

[David Sims]

Yeah. The box office situation is that I assume this will be the number one film.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, you're forgetting it's going up against the second weekend of Ella McKay, which is kind of an interesting Disney cannibalizing the Avatar franchise by putting it in the direct pathway of a buzz.

[David Sims]

I think Ellen McKay will open to 6 to 700 mil, but is gonna be very front loaded and then drop.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, look, come on, it's gonna be like Demon Slayer. Like the day one is gonna be like 50 Friday. Huge.

[David Sims]

Then it starts to drop. I mean, it's one of those things where it was a flat fall, as we've been joking you and I in our text threads and all that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But is. Is largely a byproduct of just. Just not enough product scheduling from the studios.

[David Sims]

Yes. And like Wicked crushed Zootopia Crush. Yeah. Five Nights at Freddy's 2, which I'm sure is utter dog. It's about to just like, easily make a bunch of money on top of those two. Ella McKay, of course, is swinging in.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

What is maddening is that, like, we. We had like eight weeks that were really dire, but they were dire because a couple big things moved off the schedule, including respect to Ben. Mortal Kombat 2, which they moved because it was testing so well that they were like, this should be in the summer.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, totally. And also makes sense as a summer movie. Like dumb fun.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, right. And obviously Demon Slayer and Conjuring Crush. But then there was this like, real conjuring movie.

[David Sims]

It's so bad fallow, period.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. I. I contend there's no movie that flops flopped where you're like, why'd that flop?

[David Sims]

And then things like Predator Badlands would, like, do all right, you know? Yeah, you know, right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Like, now you see me is doing all right. But it feels really stupid that, like, they kind of scrunched Zootopia, Wicked and Avatar pretty close together.

[David Sims]

Just want those, like, holiday legs. I mean, it makes, you know, like.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Wringing their hands and you're like, hey, there's like three movies that are guaranteed to make a combined find $5 billion coming.

[Marie Mareno]

Have you seen Predator Badlands?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, I enjoyed it.

[Marie Mareno]

I really liked it.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's totally good fun.

[Marie Mareno]

I saw it this week. It was like the first movie I've seen in a while that gave me some of the, like, Avatar vibes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I was about to say the exact same thing. Like, jokes aside, it is the only movie I have seen since Way of water in between Way of water and fire. Nash. That scratched some of the itches of what I like about the Avatar movies. And I like it's like like world building. It's literal building of its like physical world.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, the plants rule.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I like all that stuff. But yeah, I mean the first movie opened to 70 and people were like not a great start. Highest grossing movie of all time. The last movie open to like 130 and people were like that's not that great in a post endgame reality ended up. People forget that it is still the highest grossing film post pandemic. It made more money than everything except for Titanic.

[David Sims]

I mean Avatar and like End Game.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Truly like for how much credit Top Gun, Barbie, Oppenheimer and no Way Home get for saving the box office Wave Water outgrows all of them. And now there's $684 million domestic right now. People are like, I guess Fire and Ash is going to open to 150, but is that good enough? Like the bar keeps getting raised. I. I would not be surprised if there's a bit of a dip on this one. But I also, I think there it'll.

[David Sims]

Open a little lower and it'll have good legs and it probably will make the least of the three Avatar movies. But that will still be a tremendous amount of money.

[Marie Mareno]

All right, so here's the question. Is it going to make more or less in Zootopia too?

[David Sims]

Well, Zootopia is making this sort of bewildering amount of money in China.

[Marie Mareno]

Yes.

[David Sims]

That's hard to gate.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But isn't Avatar also very popular there?

[David Sims]

Yeah, so we'll see. I don't know. Zootopia too great to time.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You had a good time.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah, I had a great time.

[David Sims]

Love that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I've yet to see it.

[David Sims]

Saw it with my daughter, Humble Brick. It's the first. First round movie I've seen with her, I think. Right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Because I've only taken her to Ghibli movies and Toy Story.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Wow.

[David Sims]

I. I like.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I don't know where this ends up exactly. I'm curious to see what the larger public response to this is. But also like the public's response to Avatar as a general thing is so weird and torture.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

We all had a really good time. I'm very happy movie.

[Marie Mareno]

I like the.

[David Sims]

You're gonna go to 40x I assume.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, almost definitely.

[Marie Mareno]

I. I liked the. The Miley Song.

[David Sims]

I don't think I really sat with it. I think I'll need to listen to that again.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, I Was seated.

[David Sims]

Yeah. And then right next week is Marty supreme. And hopefully that'll hit. And Anaconda, I assume, will be a smash.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But Avatar's just gonna. It's gonna have that fucking magic holiday corridor.

[David Sims]

It'll have really nothing troubling it until that bone temple.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The thing that really fucking boggles my brain, I said this. Ben's rubbing his hands in one of our group texts the other day is, I just, like, do not understand why they're releasing the fucking spongebob movie at Christmas and they didn't put that thing in fucking October.

[David Sims]

Well, I'll tell you that my daughter covered her eyes at the trailer for that. Too scary. Ooh, she didn't like the pirates.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She doesn't like.

[David Sims]

There's the ghostly pirates.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Flying Dutchman.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Then the Cat in the Hat trailer came on and I was like, oh, boy, she's gonna love this. And instead she was kind of like.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Okay, well, I got great news for her. She can look forward to seeing that trailer for the next 18 months. Because that movie keeps getting pushed back.

[David Sims]

It does keep getting pushed back. They have to. They keep having to record new intros with Bill Hader looking more suicidal.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Guys, I cannot wait to show you the first look at my new film.

[David Sims]

Trailer of this movie.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'm the Cat in the Hat. Have you seen this clip?

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah. They played it in front of my trailer.

[David Sims]

Is in front of, like, he has been captured in, like, the Balkan War.

[Marie Mareno]

I didn't act. They didn't have, like, real life Bill Hader.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's like, on YouTube.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's worth watching. And he's like, guys, I'm literally so excited. The cat has a striped hat and he'll show you worlds you could never imagine.

[Marie Mareno]

The trailers I got in front of Zootopia two were Goat. The movie about a goat that wants.

[David Sims]

I didn't get that one.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Steph Curry's movie.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

And then Cat in the hat. SpongeBob. Sponge. SpongeBob. Big guy pants. Okay.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I was telling Ben, my little cousin George, off reference on the show could not be more excited for Goat. And usually when I see him, his question is like, what's the next couple Marvel movies coming out? And now the last three times I've seen him, it's just been so, Goat's coming out soon, right?

[Marie Mareno]

Is he going to be a sports kid?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He is a sports kid.

[David Sims]

Right. So of course he's excited for goats.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's like a fucking really good baseball player. Oh, right.

[Marie Mareno]

You were talking about this on our.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Traveling to, like, Play games.

[Marie Mareno]

I didn't, I didn't put that together. That, that was George, because I was like, isn't that kid like 5 George?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

George has varied interests. He's a very well balanced.

[Marie Mareno]

How old is he now?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He just turned 10.

[Marie Mareno]

Oh, my God.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

Practically a grownup.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. And he's, he's a slugger.

[Marie Mareno]

Good for him.

[David Sims]

Nice. So we're not gonna play the box office game? No, we did that already. I mean, I mean, we can't. And I think we should just address that part of why we were recording at the time that we're recording this episode.

[Marie Mareno]

Episode.

[David Sims]

Griffin booked a job and so we just had to kind of get that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

In before I, I, I have to, I have to travel out of the country. It is a thing that when it manifests, I think will be like a fun kind of surprise cameo thing for our listeners. And for anyone who is not familiar with this podcast, they'll just be like that guy with three lines. But it will be fun. And I will not say anything further about it.

[Marie Mareno]

It's draft day two.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's draft day two.

[David Sims]

It's back. 40 million dollar check for it. This time he drafts Griffin drafting America. And he gets thrown into an asylum.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'm really trying to win cousin George's respect. He watched Draft Day because he's like, really into fantasy football. Sure. And also he loves Black Panther. And I was like, I was in a movie with Black Panther, which is like a pretty limited list of movies, sadly. Right. And he watched it and I was like, what do you think? And he was like, I never would have made those choices.

[David Sims]

Unreal, Unrealistic. Truly was he? He gives away three first round picks. It's insane.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He was like, he could not stop scoffing. He was like, I do not understand what that guy's doing.

[David Sims]

This is our last episode of 2025. Right. I forgot that next week it's our.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

One dark annual Dark week.

[David Sims]

But then the week after is when you will hear us question if a thing is on. Remember that, Ben? Oh, yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah. Bradley Cooper's Is this thing on? We will discuss to kick off the new year. But this is the end of our decade of dreams. A perfect way to end it with Jimmy C. And Varang and all of her friends.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And a great old friends, Jake Sully, new friends, Varang.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's a great way to kickstart our second decade of dreams. And yes, the next proper miniseries coming up is Lynn Ramsey, as we have already announced. But repeating here, which I'm Very excited about one of my favorite filmmakers. And then Peter Weir after that because it's a short series, Lynn Ramsey. But the first two episodes of the year before we get to Lynn Ramsey will be Bradley Cooper's Is this Thing On? And Park Chan Wook's. No other choice. One of my absolute favorite movies of 2025 and one of my absolute least favorite films of 2025. And I'll. I'll keep you all suspense.

[David Sims]

I saw Lee Byung Hung just today waiting in the lobby of Criterion.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Boy, is he handsome.

[David Sims]

Did you see him?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I did not.

[David Sims]

He is one of those guys who looks like he does in the movies. He was. He was shiny.

[Marie Mareno]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah. And his hair was perfect. And he had a glass jacket on.

[Marie Mareno]

I just. I can't believe that he's also guimping.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

He's.

[David Sims]

Look, he's. He's in so many cool things.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Storm Shadow.

[David Sims]

Yeah, exactly.

[Marie Mareno]

I mean, God bless him. What a year.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

What a year.

[Marie Mareno]

What a year.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Hey. Thank you all. Yeah. For riding with us. Our clan. This podcast is a fortress.

[Marie Mareno]

It really is.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It really is.

[David Sims]

It's so true.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Whether we like it or not, it's become a fortress and we live inside of it.

[David Sims]

That's right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's just.

[David Sims]

I keep trying to bring down Home Tree, but it just woke up. Calm down.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

We keep getting reanimated and new avatar bodies behind these microphones. We joke. We love doing this show. It's. It's. It's. I'm gonna say it's an absurd privilege that this has somehow become a thing that we get to spend our lives doing.

[David Sims]

Absolutely. And now Ben and I get a month off from our. From this job.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You owe me so much for booking a job. Solid.

[David Sims]

Here.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Here.

[David Sims]

You still got two episodes to record.

[Marie Mareno]

I don't. I don't get a month off.

[David Sims]

What do you mean?

[Marie Mareno]

Social media never sleeps.

[David Sims]

We're in real time grind.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

The Farang memes.

[Marie Mareno]

The memes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

I hope they release some sort of fun new filter.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Marie Mareno]

For. You know.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Can we. Can we. Let me just call this out. Can I just want to create a fan art challenge to our listeners. Please feel free. No AI. But whether Photoshop or any kind of tactile visual art by hand sculpture, I'm. I'm putting out a call for artistic representations of me being a proper gentleman to Varang taking Frank. Nope.

[David Sims]

No. Okay. I take it back.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I take it back. Taking a safe distance and just. I'll let you interpret it how you want, but nothing untoward is happening. Yeah. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Because she would wear you like a jacket if you tried anything.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Would I want to see that? Yes. I'm not asking you to. Respectful to be clear. Don't depict that. What I want is me just maintaining a safe distance.

[David Sims]

The little tip of the cap I'm seeing here. Varang is now the new environmental secretary. Jesus. I'm really interesting choice.

[Marie Mareno]

I, I, I really want maverick thinker Pat Reynolds to Photoshop me as Varang for this episode Art. But is that I feel feel bad asking for that.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

No, I think, I think you've earned that right, Ben? Of course. A spider again. A thing that makes him happy.

[David Sims]

He better love that. He better be. Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And then I feel like you are Jake Sully and I'm Niri.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Marie Mareno]

But you usually.

[David Sims]

You often end up the lady.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I do.

[Marie Mareno]

I feel like maybe we should switch it. So you're Quaritch.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's a pretty potent idea.

[David Sims]

Potent Photoshop. All right, bye.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe.

[David Sims]

And see you in 2026.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And as always, I think you have to admit, a pretty potent podcast.

[David Sims]

You're right. You're not wrong. Oh, I thought you were gonna end with no shit.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Oh, no shit, no shit, no shit.