Clueless with Heidi Gardner

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David: Episode Summary - "Clueless with Heidi Gardner"

Release Date: June 8, 2025

In this engaging episode of Blank Check with Griffin & David, hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims delve deep into Amy Heckerling's iconic film, "Clueless", accompanied by special guest Heidi Gardner from Saturday Night Live. The conversation offers a comprehensive exploration of the movie's enduring legacy, its intricate character dynamics, and behind-the-scenes insights that make "Clueless" a standout in teen cinema.

---

Introduction to "Clueless"

Griffin Newman opens the discussion by highlighting his long-standing connection to "Clueless":

"I put on Clueless and like, within two minutes, I'm just in the most, like, wonderful mood." ([09:12])

The hosts establish "Clueless" as a cultural touchstone, comparing its significance to other beloved teen films and emphasizing its smart scripting and vibrant aesthetic.

Heidi Gardner's Personal Connection

Heidi Gardner shares her formative experience with "Clueless," recounting how the film transformed her mood after a frustrating day:

"And I put on Clueless... I'm just in the most, like, wonderful mood." ([09:19])

She reminisces about watching the movie with her older brother, Justin, who initially preferred more serious films like "Mad Love" but eventually acknowledged "Clueless" as a seminal work:

"And Robert Butler gave it three stars. And my brother was in the pool and I ran out on his raft." ([21:04])

Character Analysis and Development

The conversation transitions to a detailed analysis of the film's characters, particularly Cher Horowitz and Josh. Heidi appreciates Cher's journey of self-awareness and emotional growth:

"Cher is... She's on a journey of sort of learn a little self-awareness and like, emotional kind of growth." ([10:04])

They discuss how Cher's altruistic endeavors, such as helping Ty and navigating her relationship with Josh, reflect deeper themes of compassion and self-improvement without turning her into a caricature.

David Sims adds that "Clueless" masterfully balances humor with genuine character development:

"Most of the jokes in this movie are just like, it's funny. That is exactly what this character would say." ([12:26])

Casting Choices and Behind-the-Scenes Insights

The hosts delve into the casting process, discussing how Amy Heckerling's vision shaped the film. Griffin notes the meticulous selection of Alicia Silverstone as Cher, despite studio preferences for other actresses:

"She was very dead set on [Alicia Silverstone]." ([60:10])

They explore alternative casting choices and how the final ensemble, including Stacey Dash and Dan Hedaya, contributed to the film's unique dynamic.

Fashion and Aesthetic Impact

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the film's iconic fashion, credited largely to Bill Pope, the cinematographer:

"Every look in this movie is a snatching it." ([66:33])

Heidi marvels at the deliberate costume design, noting how Cher's outfits not only define her character but also set trends that resonate through decades:

"Cher's yellow tartan suit skirt... It's one of the classic examples of when the Oscars don't recognize contemporary costume design." ([66:40])

The hosts praise the film's vibrant color palette and how it creates a visually appealing, almost "science fiction" aesthetic that feels larger than life yet grounded in its narrative.

Themes and Cultural Reflections

The episode delves into the broader themes of "Clueless," such as social cliques, ambition, and the search for meaning in high school settings. David Sims draws parallels between Cher's world and contemporary social dynamics:

"Sympathetically, Cher is trying to understand and build relationships in a way that reflects her own growth." ([57:36])

Heidi connects her own experiences in a Catholic high school with Cher's navigation of Beverly Hills High, highlighting the universal aspects of teenage life portrayed in the film.

Heidi's Insights from Saturday Night Live

Heidi brings perspectives from her work on SNL, discussing the challenges of balancing character authenticity with comedic exaggeration:

"Trying to figure out how much emotional realism you can put into sketch comedy." ([49:22])

She relates these experiences back to her appreciation of "Clueless," where characters feel real despite their heightened traits. Her anecdotes underscore the importance of genuine character portrayal in creating relatable and memorable narratives.

Final Reflections on "Clueless"

As the episode progresses, Griffin and David reflect on the lasting impact of "Clueless," cementing its status as a beloved classic. They emphasize how the film's smart writing, endearing characters, and stylish presentation have influenced both audiences and future film productions.

Heidi concludes with a heartfelt appreciation for the film's ability to blend humor with meaningful character arcs:

"Everyone loves Cher. Right. Like, you know, Cher would be a good stepdaughter to have. It's clear." ([70:31])

Conclusion

Throughout the episode, "Clueless" is celebrated not just as a teen comedy but as a thoughtfully crafted film that balances entertainment with emotional depth. With Heidi Gardner's insightful contributions, Griffin and David provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of why "Clueless" remains a cherished part of film history.

Notable Quotes:

• "Cher's the first movie where I was like, it's based on a book. That's not teen high school shit." – Griffin Newman ([22:00])
• "This does feel like science fiction in a way. Like, it's fast, original, and high." – Griffin Newman ([66:16])
• "It's a very smart movie, but it has the sort of aesthetics of a bubbly, silly, forgettable." – Griffin Newman ([23:56])

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Hosts:

• Griffin Newman – Passionate about film and bringing humor to film analysis.
• David Sims – Insightful commentator with a deep appreciation for character-driven narratives.
• Heidi Gardner – Saturday Night Live star offering unique perspectives from her comedic background.

Produced by: Ben Hosley

For more insights and detailed discussions on filmographies, visit blankcheckpod.com.

Transcript

[Griffin Newman]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Blank check with Griffin and David.

[David Sims]

Don't know what to say or to expect.

[Griffin Newman]

All you need to know is that the name of the shadow is Blackjack. Why should I listen to you anyway? You're a podcaster who can't drive.

[David Sims]

That was way harsh, Ty.

[Griffin Newman]

You should call me David.

[David Sims]

Well, you're doing the character. That's not how you talk.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm inhabiting.

[David Sims]

We had to do a flip there because that was the quote that jumped out to me. And then I realized I am a podcaster who can't drive. It would be unfair if I accused you of being a podcaster who can't drive because you love driving. Even though I want to do the quote.

[Griffin Newman]

And please, Our guests should weigh in on this, too. Is Ty Rich? Because, like, this is a private school, I think, or I think, or it's like a really nice Beverly Hills school.

[David Sims]

It feels like a.

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone there is probably, like, kind of. Well, but she's got the New York accent to sort of differentiate her, and she's a little more alt, but, like, is like, do you think what her parents are like, you know, music promoters or something? You know what I mean?

[David Sims]

Like you said right before we started recording that this is perhaps the movie you've seen most in your life.

[Griffin Newman]

I've thought about this movie a lot.

[David Sims]

They never.

[Griffin Newman]

They don't really get anything.

[David Sims]

Get at why she moved from New York to Beverly Hills. Right. It is an interesting question. You have to imagine it has to be some kind of parent job transfer. Yeah, right, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Like, is it a showbiz thing? She's just so New York, you know?

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's a good question. I saw, I mean, like, Fast Times at Richmond High. Amy Heckerling's other totemic high school movie is a film we talked about, is very class aware, but is also a movie that doesn't touch on parents at all. Yes, it is a thing. On our recent watch in the first time, you never see a parent in that entire movie, which doesn't feel like some stylistic choice, but it's just part of the tapestry. This is a movie that, like, Hedaya is the main parent you see.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, of course.

[David Sims]

But I also feel like you're invoking the parents.

[Griffin Newman]

You hear about him, but you don't see him.

[David Sims]

You don't see him a ton. No, no.

[Heidi Gardner]

I hope that she's not rich, and I kind of hate that you ever put that in my.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm so sorry. I don't mean, like, rich in, like, an evil way. But I'm just like. So now I'll blow something a little bit here with which is that Amy Heckerling wrote about this, right? Like, she. In her biography, I think, okay, she talked about adapting Emma, Jane Austen's Emma for Clueless.

[David Sims]

What does that. What does Emma have to do with Clueless?

[Griffin Newman]

And how do you transpose the characters, right? And she said Ty was really hard because that character Harriet is, like, of low birth, right? Is like, the idea in Emma. She's a little lower class. And she was like, I didn't want to, like, get into wealth, like, because then everyone just seems like a huge asshole, right? Like, if it's like, oh, we're befriending the poor girl, like, immediately it's like, just throws it off. So she went for New York to be like that. That's how I'll make her seem different, which also makes her be like a New York girl.

[David Sims]

The Heckerling insert character in a lot of ways.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

But I.

[Griffin Newman]

And, like, she dresses in a different. You know, she dresses in this kind of grungy way, which is, like, cool, but it's different.

[David Sims]

It is the very smart conceit of this movie, of turning the class structure into just social clique, like hierarchy within a high school rather than within the outside world. But some other interview I watched with her on the special features, I think she was talking about how her intent was to, like, make an idealistic high school where as much as there is, like, factions, everyone kind of gets along.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right?

[David Sims]

Everyone kind of has money to dress perfectly.

[Heidi Gardner]

New girl feels like enough for me.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[Heidi Gardner]

Just the new girl doesn't know how to do her makeup yet. Feels like enough.

[David Sims]

And she has her own heightened dialect. Yes, yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Just. I have a lot of questions like, that I want to pose just because I thought about this movie so much, and when I first saw it, I was only dimly aware of all that stuff. Anyway, I was just like, this is. I get it. Like, it's American high school. I don't know. And now I think about it a lot.

[David Sims]

David went to high school in the uk.

[Griffin Newman]

I did. That's so true. With boys only. So very different social scene.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Not like this at all.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Did have the stoners. Did have the jocks.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Did kind of have the AV kids, I guess.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But not like this at all.

[David Sims]

You had some kids at school who was sipping a bit away.

[Griffin Newman]

Sipping, yeah. Sip a bit away. Now, so Griffin does an English accent sometimes.

[David Sims]

It's accurate.

[Griffin Newman]

It's. It's.

[David Sims]

You get it you understand dialects, this is what you do for a living.

[Heidi Gardner]

Sipping a bit of weed.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you do an English. You've done an English accent or two?

[Heidi Gardner]

You know, I have. And I among friends, I think I can confidently do it whenever they have me do it at snl. I doubt myself completely. We had a sketch this weekend that got cut where I was British and I was like, I'm kind of glad.

[David Sims]

Is it an. Is it an in your head thing? Are there other things like that where you're like, don't make me do this because I feel like you, you, you have tremendous range.

[Heidi Gardner]

I will. Thank you. I remember when I thought the first time I could do a British accent. I was practicing at home. And then I called my friend Paula and left a message on our answering machine just as a confused British woman that was like, hey, Lori, I was just calling to see if we're still meeting tonight. Could you give me a call back? And I was like, oh, if I trick her, sure. Right, we'll see then. I can do it, you know. And I was just waiting the next day at school just kind of like, what? Did anyone call you last night?

[David Sims]

Any funny stuff happen on your answering machine?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, how's your answering machine? Do you give it a listen?

[Heidi Gardner]

And she was like, yeah, you called me, left a British woman confused.

[David Sims]

But do you think when you get self conscious about having to do a British accent at snl, it's still you flashing back to that from high school?

[Heidi Gardner]

It might be getting called out immediately?

[David Sims]

Yeah. Because is there any other stuff like that you bump on where if they, like throw you an ask, you're like, oh, fuck, that's my weak spot.

[Heidi Gardner]

I mean, singing is too. I'm not a singer. And also, they never put me in anything with singing where at this point I am just kind of like, well, I am missing good opportunities where. So, yeah, okay, the singing. But I've tried harder and I definitely commit. It's just I don't always get the cue to come in on. I'm like a beat late.

[David Sims]

You do you often do the singing during the, like, the warmup. The warm up.

[Heidi Gardner]

Which is insane. So I'm like, you guys use me when you need me for, like, kind of a thankless thing. I mean, I enjoy warming up the crowd, but then you don't put me in the show doing, you know, a solo piece.

[Griffin Newman]

This is. I would, I would struggle with a lot of live comedy broadcast on national television. I think I would be a little anxious about all of it. The idea of singing and being funny.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Is so, like, face meltingly scary to me. Like, there's no way I could begin to think about that.

[Heidi Gardner]

So you do think, like, I think in my head, while I'm like, bad singing's funny.

[Griffin Newman]

It is.

[David Sims]

That's true.

[Heidi Gardner]

It can also be so annoying and grating. And I think our boss thinks that.

[Griffin Newman]

A little bit of that goes a very, very long way. And right. More than, like, 10 seconds of that, you're probably losing.

[David Sims]

People see, when I've had, like, auditions and stuff, and people ask me if I can sing, my answer is always, I can comedy sing.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, that's true. I think I can comedy sing as a character. But people at SNL have great voices, and these music videos they're singing is a.

[David Sims]

They're singing for real. Yeah. Yeah. Comedy sing, I feel like, is a very specific thing, though. But when you're up against people who, like. Can comedy sing end real sing? Yes. Hey, you know what this is?

[Griffin Newman]

Please?

[David Sims]

This is Blank Check with Griffin and David.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you.

[David Sims]

I'm Griffin.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm David.

[David Sims]

Podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. And sometimes those checks clear. And sometimes they bounce, baby.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

I was trying to better be specific.

[Griffin Newman]

Whatever. I don't know.

[David Sims]

I was like, what's a thing I can say say instead of baby? Sometimes they bounce back when.

[Heidi Gardner]

Sometimes they bounce. And sometimes they're bugging.

[David Sims]

Sometimes they're bugging, sometimes they're buggin. This is a miniseries on the films of Amy Heckerling. It's called Pod Times at Ridgemont Cast.

[Griffin Newman]

That's right.

[David Sims]

And today we are talking about your favorite film of hers, what you often refer to as your favorite movie of all time.

[Griffin Newman]

Basically the one I've seen the most. I really think that's true. I think I've seen this movie more than any other movie.

[David Sims]

The other movies, I feel like I hear you call interchangeably your favorite movie, Jerry Maguire, which we covered basically the.

[Griffin Newman]

Same time and the exact same thing in that it is a movie I owned on VHS that I would watch with my mom all the time. You know, they occupy the same space.

[David Sims]

Yes. McCabe and Mrs. Miller you've thrown out.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, but that. That's more of a watch. That's like a good movie. You know, I'm not like, you know, 10:30 at night. Like, let me watch, like, 45 minutes of McCabe.

[David Sims]

And then I feel like first Matrix, although maybe More Reloaded. Not not the same.

[Griffin Newman]

Nah. Master and Commander.

[David Sims]

Master and Commander.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, sure.

[David Sims]

Spirited versus Spirited way. Yeah, for sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Totally. But this, my daughter. It's Totoro.

[David Sims]

This is one of your favorite movies we will ever talk about.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the number one.

[David Sims]

It's the number one.

[Griffin Newman]

I put it on a. I was in a bad mood Sunday night, like a long day. One of the twins blew a nap. Right.

[David Sims]

Tariffs paused.

[Griffin Newman]

Ah, Tariffs. I'm like, what do I do with my semiconductor money? Do I go in more? Do I pull?

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

And I put on Clueless and like, within two minutes, I'm just in the most, like, wonderful mood. Right. I mean, just the. Because it is such a bouncy, colorful, like, peppy movie anyway. Like, it's very hard to be mad at Clueless, in my opinion.

[David Sims]

Can I throw it a white hot take right from the beginning that I've sort of considered before? But rewatching it last night hit me really hard. I think this is the character you most aspire to be in movies.

[Griffin Newman]

You want me to be Cher Horowitz.

[David Sims]

I don't aspire for you to be Cher Horowitz. I think you idolize Cher Horowitz in a way where you're sort of like, I wish I could be my version of what Cher is in her life.

[Griffin Newman]

Cher is. She. She's on a journey of sort of learn a little self awareness and like, emotional kind of growth and all that. You think? I just want to, like, shop till I drop when I'm 16 years old and like a pal. I do love to gossip. That's true.

[David Sims]

Here's a thing that will often happen, and let's say our guest today from Saturday Night Live, Heidi Gardner.

[Heidi Gardner]

Hello.

[Griffin Newman]

Hey, Heidi.

[David Sims]

Here's the thing that will sometimes happen in our office here.

[Heidi Gardner]

Okay.

[David Sims]

We're all just doing our little work before, after record.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Two minutes of silence. And then David just goes, what's the gossip?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, I do. And I have. I have friends that also are the. That pose the question. They need the guy.

[Griffin Newman]

The download.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes, yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

But David does, like, focused on an email, then looks up and bangs his thighs like he's a king. Bring me gossip.

[Heidi Gardner]

I get it.

[Griffin Newman]

That's so funny that maybe I do identify with Cher more than more than I think. Like, I mean, that could be true. I. I love the performance and I love the character, and I love. I love Jane Austen, and I was an English major and I read a lot of Jane Austen and I always say persuasion is my favorite Jane Austen novel, which is about an Introvert who hasn't gotten married and is very shy.

[David Sims]

Also your favorite Dakota Johnson movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Moving on. That's the one where it's like, it is period setting, but like, they're talking like it's fleabag, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah, that sounds right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I did see it.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But then I'm like, maybe I like Emma best who's like, you know, a bit of a meanie and a little shallow and needs to learn, you know, a couple lessons, but kind of has a good heart throughout. Anyway, I kind of like she means well.

[David Sims]

I think you like the balance of being a little mean and a little thought. Little salty, little sweet, all that loves getting people together.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. I also just love this 97 minute movie that has a great joke every minute. Like, that's the other thing about Clueless. It's not just that I love Tagas. Griff just thinks it's.

[Heidi Gardner]

I'm not.

[David Sims]

I'm not. No, I'm. I'm.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm like, there is a great joke in every minute of this script. I really. I really. We could print it out and I could point. Here's another page.

[David Sims]

That's a great line jumped out to me. I feel like there are less than five examples in this movie of something being a traditional set up punchline joke. Like almost every joke is something that is funny because the sense of the character is so well established.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like the sort of like my surgeon says I should avoid activities with balls. I'm like, that's a joke. That's like a joke.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, to be fair, it is a setup also for Dion saying, there goes your social life. That's great, right?

[David Sims]

I'm saying that's a setup, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And then there's like a slam.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, you're saying that is a setup joke, right?

[David Sims]

Right. Most of the jokes in this movie are just like, it's funny. That is exactly what this character would say.

[Griffin Newman]

You see, how about my shoes? And they only go on my feet.

[David Sims]

And every character's voice is so specific.

[Heidi Gardner]

You know what? Somebody comes from a cute little project for you. David, I'm just imagining because you said, you said there's probably a joke every minute.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Heidi Gardner]

If you did print out the script, I think you should highlight everyone. I know you have circle.

[Griffin Newman]

It's kind of like cher highlighting the September 3rd call. I just like sit down and I'm like, yep, that one's good.

[Heidi Gardner]

Just to honor the film.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm just picturing is the first notice that that, like there are jokes like that where I'm like it on the 20th time, you realize that Hedaya knocked that out of the park. Right. You know, like, you're thinking about other things. He says, yeah, the ticket is the first note. I mean, I can't do Danhad.

[David Sims]

Have you heard her line about why she cast him?

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

She said, I want the dad to be an actor who would play a hitman in any other movie.

[Griffin Newman]

That's what it was. Brilliant.

[David Sims]

He's so good.

[Griffin Newman]

He's still alive.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I was one. I was thinking about him because, you know, he's pretty old, but he hasn't done a lot of movies in a while. I used to wonder what's up with.

[David Sims]

Blocks away from him. The apartment I lived in during the pandemic.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yeah, over there.

[David Sims]

And I had a celebrity spotting at peak lockdown, where he was fully masked, and yet the. The hair poking out from the T shirt collar. Wow. The eyebrows. I said, that is unmistakably dead to rights, Hedaya.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I don't need to see the mouth and the nose. I know, I know. And he had the posture.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, he's one. If you were smart and he wanted to still work, if I was making, like, good television right now, I would cast him. Like, he would pluck it. White Lotus or something. Like, you would know, like, him a Joan Cusack. Like, those are people. Like, put him in a show.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's get him to White Lotus. Because season two had F. Murray Abraham. Right. And that's fine, but, like, let's have Dan Hedaya. Right? Like, in that. That slot.

[David Sims]

Let's do a White Lotus cast that is all 90s Paramount comedy supporting all stars.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, so Larry Miller.

[David Sims]

Yeah, put Larry Miller. Joan Cusack still alive. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So it's just like a retiree's White Lotus is the thing. Okay. What about Alex Mack?

[David Sims]

Maybe we call it the Gray Lotus. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Now I'm like, let's just have the cast of 10 Things I Hate about yout. I'm like Joseph Gordon Levitt, Alex Schmack. Just get them all. I know Heath isn't with us anymore. Julia Stiles, all of them would work on the White Lotus.

[David Sims]

I think that's its own season.

[Heidi Gardner]

Julia Stiles feels like a major option.

[Griffin Newman]

They always have that person where you're like, oh, yeah, like that person who was sort of a big star and then like, transitioned to kind of like TV star. Right. You know, like, Leslie Bibb always works.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

All right, Heidi, welcome to the show.

[Heidi Gardner]

Thank you.

[Griffin Newman]

What is your relationship with Amy Heckerling's Clueless okay. So it'd be funny if you feel like never seen it.

[David Sims]

Can you describe it to me?

[Heidi Gardner]

It was major for me. And the. The big thing I remember about it is obviously seeing the trailer. Knowing Alicia Silverstone from the Aerosmith videos, I was like, that's the coolest girl in the world. Then it's like, she's gonna have this starring vehicle movie. This is the best. The preview. Incredible. So my older brother Justin, who's six and a half years older than me, he could drive at this point. So if we were gonna see the movie and we were movie buddies, it was usually Justin's pic.

[Griffin Newman]

So he was kind of taking you to the movies.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes, but we were usually in agreement. But I wanna say I had kind of blown the whole thing up. I wanna say it was this movie that came out before Clueless, Mad Love, where it's like, yeah, check it out for day two.

[Griffin Newman]

Chris O' Donnell, right? And Drew Barrymore. So that was May 26, 1995, and this was July. So, Yeah, a couple months ago.

[Heidi Gardner]

Okay. So I push so hard for an opening day Mad Love, you know, And Justin didn't really want to see it. You know, I'm probably 11 or 12 at this point. And, you know, he's into college and was just like, I don't want to see Mad Love. And I'm like, what about when she. In the preview, when she holds her hand, his eyes, and they're driving?

[David Sims]

That's an iconic moment for him.

[Heidi Gardner]

And then you can tell she goes psycho, you know, and is, like, scraping the walls. And he's like, I don't want to see this movie. I begged, I pleaded. He was like, all right, fine. I'll take you to Mad Love. Even I could tell 20 minutes into mad Love, it was bad.

[Griffin Newman]

This is a stinker. You're like, oh, boy.

[Heidi Gardner]

And my stomach dropped. And I was like, I'm not gonna get to pick another movie for a while.

[David Sims]

It's a terrible feeling.

[Griffin Newman]

You took your shot.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. And probably at Mad Love. I probably saw the trailer for Clueless, you know, and was like, ooh. Like, this is a good movie summer for me.

[David Sims]

So you're sitting there as Mad is bombing and knowing, fuck, have I ruined my play for Clueless, which now is the next target.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So I am now fascinated. I'd never seen Mad Love. It's an Antonia Bird movie. She's a good filmmaker. But I. This, I think, was her like, okay, I'll make an American romantic drama. And nobody cared.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. I mean, they looked Great.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Heidi Gardner]

But I just knew there's few movies. Biodome is one of them. Where I was so happy. And then I knew, this is a bad movie.

[David Sims]

Ben's ears just perked.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that your favorite bad movie? I just. As Cher says, you know, looking for love in high school is like searching for meaning in a Pauly Shore movie or whatever, right? Yes, yes.

[Ben Hosley]

Trashy, but it's kind of fun. We can't deny that.

[Heidi Gardner]

I think I walked out and I was.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, my God.

[Heidi Gardner]

I think I was in seventh grade. And I was like, this is stupid. Which was big for me. I like stupid stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

It is so funny to me that they did that. Right. The thing where they built the biosphere in Arizona. Right. And people lived in it. And someone was watching that. I was like, what if Pauly Shore was in that?

[David Sims]

Pauly, imagine.

[Griffin Newman]

Can we get like 10 million bucks? Like, is that enough? I love that Pauly Shore's in that.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It wasn't. That was a shorthand bad movie for about 10 years. Where I feel like other critics, just because the title was so specific would be like, not since Biodome.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Has Pauly Shore ever hosted snl?

[David Sims]

Great question.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't think he has.

[Heidi Gardner]

I don't think he has either. I feel like I would definitely still be watching that episode, but you'd be watching it on.

[Griffin Newman]

So you thought you'd blown it. I thought it was Clueless is coming out.

[Heidi Gardner]

Clueless is coming out. It's like a week before Clueless comes out. And I'm like, justin, it's the summer we were at. We were staying at our mama and Bampos. That's at my grandparents, basically the whole summer above ground pool. It was just like a good summer. And I remember saying to him, like, can we see Clueless on Friday? And he was like, absolutely not. I was like, justin, please. It means a lot to me. It's a big deal. It's the girl from there, also video. He's like, I don't care.

[Griffin Newman]

You're trying to sex sell.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Hey, she's a hottie. Her midriff.

[Heidi Gardner]

We all knew it didn't work for Mad Love. So that was verymore belly button piercing. We're not seeing this.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

So then he says, and. But I wouldn't shut up all day.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[Heidi Gardner]

So he says, I will make you a deal. So in the Kansas City Star, there was a movie critic, Robert Butler. And Friday, when movies came out, you'd get Robert Butler's reviews. And just for context. And that was our whole example, for.

[Griffin Newman]

41 years, he was the critic for the Kansas City Star.

[David Sims]

He was your definitive voice.

[Heidi Gardner]

He was definitive. And I feel like we usually agreed with Robert Butler. So for context, like, it was a scale of one to four stars. A movie like, and I'll probably get this wrong, but a movie in my remembrance, like Sleepless in Seattle would have gotten a two and a half. Like, he was hard on comedies. Like, totally solid.

[David Sims]

Another David favor. But that's speaks to.

[Griffin Newman]

Even if he likes that, oh, it's okay.

[David Sims]

That's high watermark of rom com. He's still a little bit thumbing his.

[Heidi Gardner]

Nose, but it's right in the middle. It's a little better than middle. And so you're like, we're seeing it, you know, and then a movie like the English Patient would be a four star movie.

[Griffin Newman]

He liked your Tony Oscar classics.

[Heidi Gardner]

So he told me we can see the movie if Robert Butler gives Clueless. And I was like, he's gonna say two and a half. And you know what? And that's possible. In my brain, I think that's possible. He said three stars. And I. I mean everything. I deflated, like, my balloon of a person was like, there is no way Clueless is pulling three stars. I just know it. And it came out and I opened it and Clueless got three stars from Robert Butler. And my brother was in the pool and I ran out on his raft. And I ran out.

[Griffin Newman]

This sounds like it's right out of Clueless.

[Heidi Gardner]

I ran out there about to tell him America won the world or something. I was like, justin, Clueless got three stars.

[Griffin Newman]

Clueless is a teen movie that's way too clever to be wasted on teens. He says three stars. In fact, one would be hard pressed to name another recent laugh out loud comedy that works so efficiently.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

He's very positive on it. I mean, as he should be. It's a really good movie.

[David Sims]

But I have to imagine in that moment, not only are you like, I have won. He has to drive me to Clueless. You're also like, clueless is legitimately about to be great.

[Heidi Gardner]

A hundred percent right.

[Griffin Newman]

You're not a Butler's review. There it is.

[Heidi Gardner]

I'm so happy that that wasn't a dream. It happened.

[Griffin Newman]

Nope.

[David Sims]

But that feeling of like, I'm not gonna have a mad love on my hands.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

If he likes this that much, I'm gonna be in hog heaven.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Did he enjoy it?

[Heidi Gardner]

My brother loved it. Yeah. He had to admit this is killer.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

He was laughing throughout it.

[David Sims]

And did you have, like, the greatest afternoon of your life.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes. Because it. I mean, for a girl in seventh grade, Clueless, who loved movies and comedy, but also loves aspirational people and women and girls at the time, like, the way that it looks is so amazing. You know, it was just. It's eye candy and comedy candy and. And then just seeing, like, Wallace Shawn, like, that's the guy from Princess Bride, you know, you're seeing so many people. It just does everything. It checks every single box.

[Griffin Newman]

It does, Yeah. I don't think I saw it in the. I would have been nine. I don't think I saw it in theaters. This was very much a movie I watched. Like, my mom rented it and we watched it, and it was like, we're gonna buy this and own it for life. And we watched it constantly. It's definitely the first movie where I was like, it's based on a book. That's not teen high school shit. Right. Cause that became so popular. That format of movie was so big in the late 90s. The 10 things.

[Ben Hosley]

Romeo and Juliet.

[Griffin Newman]

Romeo and Juliet. But they're using the language there. But that was also a big me and my mom movie. We saw that together in theaters. This is a David and his mom episode. I'm realizing.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

In my head, I was about to be like, I think Can't Hardly Wait is based off of a novel, but it's not.

[Griffin Newman]

I love that movie. That's a good movie.

[Heidi Gardner]

I think it could be.

[Griffin Newman]

I feel like this is another really obvious one I'm forgetting right now.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

What is fuck. 10 things is the most obvious other one. But Clueless is the finest example of the form, obviously, and just hits that kind of high, low culture thing, right. Where it's like, it's a dumb teen comedy in a way.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

I guess. I mean, it's a very smart movie, but it has the sort of aesthetics of a bubbly, silly, forgettable.

[David Sims]

Ten Things kind of didn't hit at the time.

[Griffin Newman]

It did. Okay.

[David Sims]

It did.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Okay. I just remember this movie coming out over the summer and then going back to school in September, and every girl in my year, their personality was clueless. Like, it had been the most overwhelming cultural sea change.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I did not see it at the time. I probably saw it on tv, like, four or five years later. I think to a degree, I resented. Like, what is this thing I'm not a part of that they're all obsessed with and that my mom didn't want to take me to see?

[Griffin Newman]

Why didn't she want to take You. Well, you were very young when this film came out.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I mean, I was. I was six, seven.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. But what's a little young for Clueless?

[David Sims]

Every girl in my grade, I remember.

[Griffin Newman]

One girl, I'm doing like sort of the slapping of hands.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Greeting, like things that you could grab from Clueless. If you're watching.

[Heidi Gardner]

I wonder if I ever confidently pulled off or whatever.

[David Sims]

I just remember there was a girl in my year who said she had. She owned two copies of Clueless on vhs.

[Heidi Gardner]

What a brag.

[David Sims]

And I said, why two? And she said, for when I eventually run out the first one.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep. When you just degrade the hell out of it.

[David Sims]

Right. But it was like they swung back with like a language, like they were all just speaking in clueless talk.

[Heidi Gardner]

Can I throw out just a fun fact about me?

[Ben Hosley]

I.

[Heidi Gardner]

Because I had multiple VHS of certain movies, et cetera. My most insane version of her story was I recorded Goodwill Hunting on audio cassette so I could listen to it in the car.

[Griffin Newman]

That is amazing. So you like held your, like your tape recorder up to the TV 100%.

[David Sims]

So just to be clear, you had it on VHS, but you also had a cassette version in case you weren't close to a screen. But you just want to get a hit.

[Griffin Newman]

You just want to hear that Danny Elfman score the strings. Yeah, I. Paul Rudd is in this film. This is his first screen Credit. Astonishing. Number one. Yeah. Because Halloween 6 comes out the same year, but I think came out more in the sort of Halloween range. And people will forget now, I'm sure you guys know, but Paul Rudd did. His career did not take off for years. Like he kind of floundered or whatever, you know, he was like stuck in like cute 20 something guy where he's competing with everybody, I guess. And it's not till he's on Friends that I feel like he finally starts to pick up a little steam.

[David Sims]

I mean, I think you're missing the other part of it, which is he's like a big fan of alt comedy. He's going to all these shows, you.

[Griffin Newman]

Know, Wet Hot and.

[David Sims]

Yeah, obviously they talk about that. Like he reached out to David Wayne and was like, I'm a big fan of your guy's stuff. Do you have anything? And David Wayne was like, this guy's been in a movie. This is the most legitimate person we know. He has something vaguely resembling a name. Even if it's sort of like what happened to the guy from Clueless when they're putting together an indie budget. He's a big Boon to them.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yeah. And I feel like somebody. He's in Romeo and Juliet. He's an object of my affection. Like he's in some movies, but that's like, right.

[David Sims]

This is like 95, 96, 97. And by the time that Wet Hot comes around in 2001, he had sort of fallen off a little bit. And then it's like he's getting cool comedy cred. And then the friends thing happens.

[Griffin Newman]

That's when he starts.

[David Sims]

And those two things feed into my mom. 40 year old virgin, who I'm just.

[Griffin Newman]

Going to talk about Heidi. I'm not that obsessed with my mom.

[David Sims]

He's pretty obsessed with his mom.

[Griffin Newman]

In 2000, no one remembers this, but there was a TV miniseries version of the Great Gatsby starring, I remember this. Toby Stevens and Mira Sorvino and Paul Rudd as Nick Carraway. Jennifer Tilly is not in this, so she must have been in a different Great Gatsby. And my mom interviewed Paul Rudd for this.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

And she said on the phone, like, my son is like a big fan of yours. And he just went like clueless. And she was like, yeah, yeah. And he's like, yeah. I mean that's nice, you know, but like, clearly he was like, I can't get out from under this fucking thing.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's so funny to think about that now given how successful he is.

[David Sims]

That's all.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, well, it's funny you were even talking about. He kind of had like a floundering career in rom coms until Friends. Because a big part of the equation for me is Paul Rudd is from Kansas City, where I'm from. So this guy, the fact there's a Kansas City in. In the best movie of the summer.

[David Sims]

And did you like Casey Boy Makes Big.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You clocked that immediately.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, I think we've. There had to be an article in the paper probably by Robert Butler a week later.

[David Sims]

Local boy does good.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, that.

[Griffin Newman]

Go ahead.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, that. It was just the biggest deal in the world. So even you saying that, I'm like, wait. Well, when you said, well, and then Romeo and Juliet, it's like Kansas City guy. That's biggest movie ever. And then. Objection, because I was about to say, what about Object of My Affection, A.

[Griffin Newman]

Film I saw in theaters, but it was not a big hit.

[David Sims]

It's not.

[Griffin Newman]

It was not nothing. Yeah, it's a good movie. I like that movie.

[David Sims]

And he's really good in it.

[Griffin Newman]

He's really good.

[Heidi Gardner]

He's.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

And then being a comedy nerd and liking alt Stuff and loving the state. When Wet Hot came out, we were freaking out that Paul Rudd was in it.

[Griffin Newman]

He's so good in it. And it was one of those things where it's not just like, oh yeah, they got like a famous guy to be fine in it. I'm like, he might be the funniest guy in it. What is this? Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

And that Christmas after it came out, my friends and I, there was a bar in Kansas City called Harleen's that you could get into when you're 18. They didn't ID. And we went to this bar, Underage. And Paul Rudd was there of age, as you should be. And we were like, oh my God, it's the guy from Wet Hot, you know? And we went up to him freaking out about Wet Hot American Summer. And he couldn't believe that, like anyone even knew.

[David Sims]

It's the flip of the clueless phone call where he's like, oh my God, you know me from that.

[Heidi Gardner]

And then he took a picture with us giving like the stank face from Wet Hot. It was incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

He lived mostly in Lenexa. What's Lenexa? It's like a Kansas City suburb or something. I'm just reading about his.

[Heidi Gardner]

I feel like it was Leawood, but I might be.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, I'm going by Wikipedia, which is not always right.

[David Sims]

I was watching the Blu Ray for this movie, which is, we're coming up on the 30th anniversary of Clueless.

[Heidi Gardner]

Crazy.

[David Sims]

The Blu ray I have is the 20th anniversary edition and is basically loaded with special features from the 10th anniversary edition. So it is a bunch of interviews cut into different themed packages. That thing I love in that era where they're just like, we need eight special features listed on the back. And you watch them and you're like, this is one special feature cut into separate chunks.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[David Sims]

This is the same batch of interviews you did with everyone 10 years later.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And you're like, but this is 10 minutes just on the language. This one's just about the fashion. But it's all cutting in the same footage. They talk to everyone basically, other than Silverstone, interestingly. And it was late that I clocked, like, huh, she's the one person who's not here. But there's a bunch of Paul Rudd clips and all these people in 2005. And Paul Rudd is at like such a transitional moment where like 40 year old virgin is coming out that year. Anchorman came out the year before. He's about to have the full comedy crossover threshold, Man.

[Heidi Gardner]

Role models are Gonna hit.

[David Sims]

And he's saying that, like, he got sent the script and was like, ugh. And is like reading it kind of begrudgingly, where you have to imagine he's like, I don't want to do, like, shitty, stupid teen comedies because he's such a comedy nerd. He's like, assuming this is lowest common denominator. And then he's like 15 pages in. I'm begrudgingly like, that's kind of funny. That's like kind of a good joke. And then he's like, I got to the end of it. And I was like, this is actually really well written. Like, this is good. And then said he basically auditioned for every other character before Josh. He didn't want to play Josh.

[Griffin Newman]

He wanted to do Alton or something.

[David Sims]

He wanted to play Murray. And he went in and was like, I want to read for Murray. And they're like, murray's black, I was gonna say. And he was like, I didn't get that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he didn't get that. How close was he reading this script?

[David Sims]

It makes sense, though. If you think about Paul Rudd, a.

[Griffin Newman]

Guy, woman, lend me five dollars. He's like, I can do that.

[David Sims]

He thought that was the big one. It's a white kid who's obsessed with H. Talks like this.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, okay.

[David Sims]

And Heckerling said in his defense, it's not stated in the script. Right. But you imagine here's this guy who's this unbelievably handsome. Right. Is like a cute looking guy. Yeah. But also has like this weird sense of humor that he's like. The thing I don't want to do is play the, like, heightened, boring, serious guy that she ends up with at the end. Like, playing the love interest could be constricting to your.

[Griffin Newman]

Let me play a silly guy.

[David Sims]

Let me play a silly guy. Let me play Elton. Let me play any of the other guys. And that they just kept being like, you want to maybe read Josh? You want to maybe read Josh? And he liked the script so much that he agreed to do it. I have to imagine that the scripts he got sent after this was a hit. If he's reading the shitty versions of Clueless, asking him to play the Josh type again.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[David Sims]

That's probably death to him. Which is probably why he spent a couple years sort of floundering because he didn't, like, cash in on the obvious.

[Griffin Newman]

He also just needed to get older. I mean, it's the most boring observation in the world with Paul Rudd. Just like. Like, you know, just needed to hit his 30s. And look even better. And.

[David Sims]

But object of my affection is him, like, not doing the obvious romcom thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. No, because he's playing a gay guy in that movie in the 90s.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And I mean, he's in like, Cider House Rules, but he's got kind of the boring role in that. He's. Anyway, look, we'll talk about Paul Rudd. We'll talk about all this stuff.

[David Sims]

David, you ever step outside and feel like you're instantly drenched in sweat?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. I live in New York City, so it's about four to six months out of the year.

[David Sims]

And hey, summer, New York. You know what that means?

[Griffin Newman]

Hot times.

[David Sims]

AC running full blast during every blank check record. By David's insistence, despite us being different sizes, I am the same way. I start sweating within 2 milliseconds in this weather. It's like no matter what I do, it doesn't stop.

[Griffin Newman]

And so there's nothing to be done. And I guess we're just going to have to move off of this topic.

[David Sims]

A brief intermission to complain about an unsolvable issue. What?

[Griffin Newman]

Have you heard of Mando?

[David Sims]

Oh, yes, I've heard about.

[Griffin Newman]

I will say, and I do like to get this.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

The big package.

[David Sims]

I like the big box, where it's.

[Griffin Newman]

Kind of like, this is everything we've, you know, got on offer. These are all the customizable sort of options. Mando deodorant. They have all kinds of interesting things that you can try.

[David Sims]

They're taking sweat control and odor control. The natural. The next level. And to your point, David, a thing I like about Mando is they send this box. Got multiple different form factors, right? It's like, how do you want a deodorant? You want to do a roll on. You want to do a spray?

[Griffin Newman]

Spray kind of took me back.

[David Sims]

There was like a squeezy kind of like cream thing, like body wash. The wipes, they give you the power to decide how to not be a stinky baby.

[Griffin Newman]

But what's different is, and this. I'm talking here about the sweat control solids, which I. I'm a stick guy. I don't know about you guys.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I'm kind of a legendary stick man.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not your typical deodorant. It's clinical strength. It's two times better at controlling sweat than the standard. It controls both sweat and odor for 72 hours.

[David Sims]

Yeah, two issues.

[Griffin Newman]

After just 12 hours, underarm sweat was reduced by 92%.

[David Sims]

That's more than 91%. That's wild.

[Griffin Newman]

It doesn't just mask odor prevents odor. 100% of study participants experienced all day odor protection and it only uses premium ingredients like gentle mandelic acid rather than some deodorants which are loaded with chemicals.

[David Sims]

Some rival deodorants.

[Griffin Newman]

So Mando's new Deodorant plus sweat control stick gives you double the protection you need. No more worrying about sweat stains and all those embarrassing pit rings. Just all day. Freshness and dryness.

[David Sims]

Dry as a bone. Dry as dry bones.

[Griffin Newman]

Mando's starter pack is perfect for new customers. Comes with a solid stick deodorant. Cream tube deodorant. Two free products of your choice. So a body wash maybe or deodorant wipes.

[David Sims]

Absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

And free shipping as a special offer for listeners. New customers get 20% off sitewide with our exclusive code use code. [e-mail] for 20% off sitewide and free shipping. S-H-O-P M A N D O.com Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Amanda's got you covered with deodorant plus sweat control. Say goodbye to sweat stains and hello to long lasting freshness.

[David Sims]

I worked up a sweat doing that ad read.

[Griffin Newman]

Amy Heckerling just to open our dossier. Our research dossier makes look who's talking. And then she makes look who's talking to. These movies are hits, but she's very depressed. The first one's a mega fun experience.

[David Sims]

And she's like, they basically forced me to make the second one right away.

[Griffin Newman]

She gets attached to a remake of the Alan Renee comedy My American Uncle.

[David Sims]

Correct.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is going to be called Rat Race, not related to the later actual movie called Rat Race.

[David Sims]

But she was literally going to have rats running around in little business suits.

[Griffin Newman]

She was going to have that motif that at Disney they keep giving her notes and they eventually pass and say, quote, this is too smart. And so she says, you want stupid? I'll show you fucking stupid like you've never seen. Okay. She also apparently worked on a movie called A Pyromaniac's love Story, which does exist. A Billy Baldwin John Leguizamo movie. I've never heard of that movie. What is that?

[David Sims]

I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, great. Two initial sparks that set her onto Clueless one she wants to center. She's like, I'm so depressed. I want to make a movie about someone who's happy. Like, why don't I just like, like focus on the optimist, you know, rather than like what I am. Like, let me, let me try to sort of get that going.

[David Sims]

I mean, Amy Ackerling looks like a Tim Burton drawing. If people don't have a visual in mind.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, she does. She's got dark hair and she's. You're right, she's very emo looking.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

She has a meeting with Fox for tv. Yeah, sure. And they're like, we want to do, like, a movie about cool people.

[David Sims]

No, it starts out as a TV show. The first Fox.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm just, we want to do stuff about.

[David Sims]

They were like, we keep getting pitched nerd stuff. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like. Cause the nerds are cool right now. Like, Reality Bites is probably grungy stuff.

[David Sims]

And they're like, please write us a TV show about cool kids. The in crowd.

[Griffin Newman]

And it was intended as a pilot. At first. She reads the 1925 novel Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. And she's sort of like, okay, blondes, right? Like the sort of the girl who everything works out for.

[David Sims]

She also said that when she started doing it, she was like, if that's what they want, I'll write it, but I'm gonna make it, like, so mean and vicious and satirical. And then as she started writing it and getting in the headspace of it, kind of going back to the, like, I want to write something happy thing, she was like, I kind of like this person now.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. She also. She watches old episodes of Gidget, which I've never seen, but Sally Field's sort of original starring role. And she's drawn to how much she likes Gidget, another kind of sunny character. And Gidget, I think, has a lot of hardship. Right. Like, she's similar to Cher, who doesn't have much hardship, but doesn't. Her mom is gone and she's just with her dad or whatever like that. I think she's borrowing that a little bit. I mean, obviously it's just in Emma as well. She's also apparently walking around Central park with her friend Wallace Shawn. Her daughter's rollerblading ahead of him. Everyone's listening to grunge music and drinking Snapple, she says. And she starts thinking about A Clockwork Orange and James Cagney, her favorites. And she says, I love these things. And it's not the crime and the killing in those things that interest me. It's seeing individuals who are confident and energetic and happy. How did they get that way? She's really in on. And she also loved Ed Wood, the Tim Burton movie, which is really. Is about a really happy, charming guy, as much as he's crazy.

[David Sims]

Well, it only comes out a couple months before this. It is more than that. The actual.

[Griffin Newman]

No, it comes out a year before this.

[David Sims]

94, but end of 94.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm just saying. She claims she was inspired by the real life figure Edward Wood and the Tim Burton film, which came out two months before Clueless started shooting. That's all I got from her.

[Heidi Gardner]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

And she loved Spicoli. She was like, I've never done Spicoli again from Fast Times. All right? But obviously the biggest influence is Emma, the Jane Austen novel. And when she rereads that, she realizes, like, this is my protagonist. Like, I need to just modernize this.

[David Sims]

What I heard her say in. In One of these 2005 interviews is, they pitch the show to Fox, Fox passes on it. Her other project sideline. She leaves her agent, gets new representation. They go like, what have you been working on? Let me read your recent stuff. She gives them the pilot script. They respond, why would you waste this on tv? This should be a movie, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Whereas now, if I wrote a movie script, every studio cut this into pieces. Long.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah. But so then they said, like, can you come up with a movie off of this? And that's when she goes, what's the larger story? If I'm making one thing connects to Emma. Had read it, I think, fairly recently again, and was taken by how modern it seemed and how many modern comedies are still kind of riffing on it.

[Griffin Newman]

That Emma is confident and imaginative and, like, manipulative. Like, felt so modern to her. Has anyone here read Emma?

[Ben Hosley]

No, no.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a good book. And I highly recommend the Romola Garry miniseries of Emma. I think that's the strong adaptation of Emma in recent times. Obviously, there's a Gwyneth movie.

[David Sims]

I've only ever seen Gwyneth. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And there was the recent Anya Taylor Joy movie, which I thought was also pretty good. Kind of nailed the whole. The whole thing in Emma, which is not in Clueless, weirdly, is the moment where she's awful to the sort of flibbertage of it. And Mr. Knightley, aka Josh, says, that was badly done Emma. And you're kind. And she just, like, has an existential crisis. Like, she gets too mean. It's so great. Gives me goosebumps. They don't do it in Clueless. She kind of has her realization in other ways.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

Ty is almost the one who gets mean.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep, that's kind of the moment. But anyway, you'd already. Right. The Gwyneth Paltrow Emma has happened, or is about to happen. The angley sense and sensibility is around now. Like, Jane Austen is getting kind of hot again. Obviously the big con forth Pride and Prejudice is around now as well. And she just, look, it's obvious. But she's, you know, the town of Highbury becomes Beverly Hills. Carriages become cars, A ball becomes a dance. The village is the mall, right? She's like, this is easy. And she invents this slang for the movie that is largely made up, right?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Some stuff is real.

[David Sims]

She had a friend who's a teacher and he brought her in to sit in on classes. And she's like, I pulled a couple things, but it was more fun to actually just invent stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. For Christian. She comes up with his own, like, Christian will speak like a rat pack character. She decides, like, which is to one of the funniest bits in the movie that only the dad calls him out on it. It's like, what is the matter with you? And. But everyone else like, I mean, Buggin is real, right? But things like Betty and Baldwin and I don't know, like a lot of the stuff they say she's just making up.

[Heidi Gardner]

I think it's funny that you guys are giving all this context because when I knew that I was going to do this podcast about Clueless and I knew the whole Emma part of it, but I just forgot and I was like just thinking about Clueless and definitely did my own rewatch and I was like, oh, I bet. She was just kind of like, I just want to do fast times again. I like in my. But like a little bit of that.

[Griffin Newman]

Like get back to that energy.

[Heidi Gardner]

But I was real lazy about it. I was just like, I think she just wanted to do that again. And there's like. But you center on one character a little more and there's a little more narration. That's it.

[David Sims]

So she has talked about that after Fast Time she got offered like every teen movie script and said, I don't want to do this. And I think felt a very deliberate like, I don't want to get stuck in here, especially as a female director in Hollywood being like, if I keep making like female focused coming of age sex relationship comedies, I'm never going to be able to make right.

[Griffin Newman]

I'll be stuck in a vision home.

[David Sims]

So she does these immediate hard pivots into like Johnny Dangerously in European Vacation to be like, look, I can make like boy comedies.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Then look who's talking. As her like strategic rebound from two flops.

[Griffin Newman]

Have you seen look who's Talking about.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, but that one. Oh, I. I only saw that when I was like, 6 to 8. European vacation I recently saw again, which I watched a lot as a kid, and I was wondering. I'm glad you said that was a flop. Because I'm like, this feels like a flop.

[David Sims]

I had never seen it before, and I like it a lot. But it is a weird, angry, mean movie.

[Heidi Gardner]

And it's so brown. Like, the color tones. I just. I'm just so used to her movies being so bright. And it also makes me not want to go to Europe at all. I'm like. It's like looking at a bowl of beans.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, very damp and kind of gray.

[Heidi Gardner]

Dark greens, oranges. I'm like, what is going on?

[David Sims]

What I like about it is that it's a movie where everyone is awful.

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone's pissed off in Mambu, but, like.

[David Sims]

Johnny Dangerously was a complete flop. European Vacation was basically a hit on the goodwill of the first movie.

[Griffin Newman]

But everyone involved had a bad time. Everyone talks that movie, including her. They're like, it was miserable.

[David Sims]

And Christmas Vacation is such a course correction. We have to not do that again. Let's get back to this. And become so much brighter and sunnier. And then look who's talking. Is like, I need a hit. I come up with this talking baby hook, but then ends up making this movie that's, like, weirdly personal to her. Does the sequel. She's talked about that. I think by the time Fox reaches out to her and is like, could you develop a TV show for us? Like, a decade had passed. And I think she was like, do I? Is it time to stop running away from the fast times thing? It was less her being like, it's time for me to do this again. Because it was successful. But I do think she said, like, Spicoli is absolutely 10 years into my career, the thing I've created that has lasted the longest, that has had the greatest impact, like, whatever we synthesized in Spicoli is infectious and has stayed and has this kind of like, can I build the whole movie out of Spicoli thing.

[Heidi Gardner]

I mean, I want to base my life around Spicoli sometimes. Obviously, when you're a kid and you see, I just needed to take a left Spicoli turn. But when you see him as a kid, it's funny and duh. And it just has stuck around for years. It's iconic. Iconic. And then as an adult, whenever I watch that performance, I'm like, he's not even pushing it that much. Like, it is so grounded.

[David Sims]

It's very grounded.

[Heidi Gardner]

It's. And I'm like, What? Because you look at it and it looks like a joke.

[David Sims]

But then there's also just like.

[Griffin Newman]

He just seems kind of Zen, too, though.

[David Sims]

There's such a center to him of, like, this guy. Has it figured out.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes. Like, when Mr. Hands asks him why he's late, and he's like, it just couldn't make it. Like, it's just so. That's so real. It's like everyone else would lie, and he's like, I just couldn't make it on time.

[Griffin Newman]

It's almost amazing that Travis is in this movie because he is a Spicoli type. And yet I feel like they find a gentler or, like, kind of like a slightly different energy.

[David Sims]

Here's another thing she said when she's, like, reading the book and trying to figure out, like, who are the equivalent, what are the modern day equivalents to the social types in this book. Right. And she's like, this guy would be a stone. Yes, but can I do stoner again? Like, didn't want to do it because of Spicoli. And then said, like, it's the only thing that maps properly.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

With the worldview. And I just totally figured out a way to make.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Because again. Right. She's like, I don't want Cher to be looking down on people for really kind of nasty reasons, but, like, that he's just kind of a burnout. It does make sense that she'd be like, yeah, he's amusing, but, like, we don't take that guy seriously.

[Heidi Gardner]

I don't to him.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

I don't want to be looking down on Cher. And it's why the title is so good, where you're like, the fatal flaw of this character is that she just kind of doesn't get it.

[Griffin Newman]

In the book, Robert Martin, that character is like a farmer. And the idea is she's telling Harriet, like, you can't marry him because he's too basically, like, you're not gonna jump the ladder. And she's got to realize that she's gotta stop caring about status so much. Yeah. But, yeah, he's an amazing. And Breckin Meyer's so funny in this movie. He's so sweet.

[Heidi Gardner]

He's so sweet.

[David Sims]

I feel like I'm gonna paraphrase this probably very poorly, but I remember reading some interview that you did years ago, Heidi, where you talked about how, like, your main driving force is trying to figure out how much emotional realism you can put into sketch comedy. Does this sound correct?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Sims]

To something you've said just like, what is the Most like real, visceral and perhaps, like, unsettling emotion I can load into sketch comedy. And I feel like it is a thing that Amy Heckerling is so good at. Not that this movie has high drama in it, but, like, the same with the Spicoli thing of, like, what is so funny about Spicoli is that he feels like a real person.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And same with the clueless characters where, like, this is a movie where everyone is pitched at Spicoli level. Whereas the Miracle of Fast Times is that, like, it is able to simultaneously hold Spicoli and an abortion scene.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And Jennifer Jason Leigh is playing really naturalistic and grounded. This is a movie that takes place entirely in a cartoon world A little bit. Yeah. With, like, perfect timing and everyone knows the right thing to say at every moment, and yet every character feels like a real person with a real inner life and, like, hopes and dreams and feelings.

[Heidi Gardner]

100% like. And shout out to Travis Breckinmeier in that. Because, you know, he does that speech where he does the acceptance speech for Tardy.

[Griffin Newman]

So funny.

[Heidi Gardner]

And it's so funny. But it's. Even as someone who would love a role like that, I'm like, I don't know if I could pull that off, you know? But it does feel so real.

[David Sims]

It feels really real.

[Heidi Gardner]

He made it so real. Like, the way he thanks McDonald's, without.

[Griffin Newman]

Which I would never be tardy. I mean, Ben, this is a character who probably speaks to you in a little bit. Right. He's into Marvin the Martian, I was, definitely.

[Ben Hosley]

And the stoner clique in high school.

[Heidi Gardner]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Ben does a pretty good Marvin the Martian, too.

[Heidi Gardner]

Oh. I mean, even that moment where they're flipping through Ty's drawings and they're just geeking out on Marvin the Martian and all their little drawings. And it's. It's because. It's almost because of little moments like that where you are like, oh, these are real people. They're doing such a good job. And seeing those off moments, like, it all just fuels the monologues.

[Ben Hosley]

But I like that he goes through a change, too. I like that he gets kind of dunked on for being a stoner and has that realization of, like, I should be better. Right. Like, I don't need to fall into this clique, per se.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Ben Hosley]

And I love to see that change in the character.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's like. Right. The thing they do, rather than make it a class thing, is, like, this guy is lacking in ambition.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Because his priority is getting stoned all the time. And at the end of the movie, it's not like he shows up wearing a suit and tie, and he's like, hello, I'm here to talk business. It's just like, this guy's gotten a little more focused.

[Ben Hosley]

He starts taking his skateboarding more seriously, which we love to see.

[David Sims]

I also love that they have this meet cute. And immediately you're like, they have great chemistry.

[Griffin Newman]

And these two characters should be together. Right? Like, any. Every 20 minutes, they interact a little bit, and you're like, yeah, they still have great chemistry.

[David Sims]

Every moment is so good. And Cher is just like, no, absolutely not. This does not follow the rules. He. Breckin Myers and Alicia Silverstone both went to Beverly Hills High, which is obviously, like, one of the schools that this is based on. And he said he read the script and was like, I can't play this guy. These are the guys who used to beat me up in high school.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow.

[David Sims]

That. He was like, I was the guy the stoners picked on.

[Heidi Gardner]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

Brecken Meyer's so cute.

[David Sims]

He's so cute.

[Griffin Newman]

But I think he should be in Shrek 5 and he should change his name to Shrek and Meyer. I think you should think about that.

[David Sims]

That you have had that Change.org petition up for about a decade.

[Griffin Newman]

He seems great. I. What's he up to? Recently? I have not.

[David Sims]

He writes for Robot Chicken.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, that. I know. He's in the Robot Chicken world. Right. I guess that's. That's what he's mostly doing.

[Heidi Gardner]

You know what's great, too. And I've learned this the hard way in comedy. Falling on my face a lot. And I. I get this note a lot from producers, and Lauren is. But I see it with Travis. It's like, even if you're a loser or a stoner, like. Like, you gotta play it joyful in comedy. Like, you can't make the audience sad or they. And sometimes it works, but, like, for the most part, it's like, if you're. They're like, fine, play a loser, but love that you're a loser. You know, like, he's loving his parties. He's loving that he's getting called out about it. And, you know, there have been a few times, like, in a sketch or something, I'll just offhandedly, like, you know, mention, like, my crippling debt or something. And, like, Lauren or one of my producers is like, why? Why that? You know, And I'm like, cause it's funny. Cause when I was a kid, that did happen. And, you know, you have to laugh at it, but it's like, it is also sad and maybe talk about it in therapy, you know, So, I mean.

[David Sims]

I like sad comedy, but he is. He's like the quiet MVP of the movie for me.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, same.

[David Sims]

And it speaks to, like, the fact that he is also coming at it from the same angle as Amy Heckerling of like, these were the kids I, like, stood against in high school. And now I'm trying to understand their point of view in a positive way.

[Heidi Gardner]

Which is kind of, you know, I went to an all girls Catholic high school and I was not a stoner. And I don't even know that there was like a. A lunch table full of stoners. But I do know certain girls that I knew smoked weed and like. And that there were this group of guys that did too, that, you know, they'd hang out with them on the weekend. And I think I was just. It wasn't necessarily that any of them were mean. They. They also, they just seemed like a level up.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

You know, like, they're a little more mature. Yeah. But they would been like, if you came to the. It's like, hey, what's up? You know? But then if you're like, oh, I don't want that. It's like, okay, she's not chill.

[David Sims]

Cher's whole thing in this where she's like, to tie like, you got to stop doing drugs. That's like, not the thing that like.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's okay to get laced at a party. Yes. She makes it. She's not anti drugs. She's just kind of anti drugs all the time.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

But I absolutely had that attitude in high school without wanting to be a narc because I was scared of doing drugs.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And I'm sure you're like, you're one of those.

[Griffin Newman]

I just don't want to be involved.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I just actually like retaining my brain cells. Like, I had that.

[Heidi Gardner]

Oh, you did.

[David Sims]

Right. Which I think is similarly coming out of this, like, fear of. That seems like an intense thing that I'm not ready for.

[Ben Hosley]

And so what now you remember your life? That must be nice.

[Griffin Newman]

You were just stressed out anyway. That's all you're remembering.

[Ben Hosley]

Look, the advice is not good, by the way. I just want to interject and say smoking weed at a party when you don't smoke weed is worse. The worst.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. You're just going to have a shitty time.

[Ben Hosley]

You just immediately get in your head and.

[David Sims]

How overstimulated. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Although she, she's, you know, she takes one drag and kind of Just mingles. She. She. Yeah, she handles most things with aplomb. God. God bless her. Like, she does get her ass to the Valley and, like, she's that person.

[Ben Hosley]

She doesn't really. She doesn't have adversity.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, she shows up to that party in, like, a, you know, really, really expensive dress, and she somehow doesn't stick out or whatever.

[Ben Hosley]

The credit card bill that her father is paying monthly. Do we want to try and guess?

[Griffin Newman]

Look, here's my big request, and we gotta talk.

[Heidi Gardner]

Wow. Good. Good one.

[Ben Hosley]

I. I have a list of some of my favorite. We can get into it. Well, just. Well, I do have that, but just more like, looks and, like, style.

[David Sims]

Ben is getting into fashion. Beauty.

[Heidi Gardner]

I've only recently heard Alaia. I thought it was a new designer. So then when I did the Clueless rewatch, I was like, oh, damn. Alaia's been around and expensive for a while.

[Griffin Newman]

How much would that cost, that Elia.

[Ben Hosley]

Dress at that time?

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, thousands.

[Ben Hosley]

Thousands, Tens of thousands of dollars.

[Griffin Newman]

Here's my question. Is Mel a good dad? Because on the one hand, he's got a bit of a spoiled child who seems to get whatever she wants. We live in a mansion, drives without a license. Right. He's a workaholic. He yells at everybody. But at the same time, he seems to have raised a relatively sort of emotionally centered kid. Like, given all of, like, she's got a good heart, you know, like, and he kind of, like, they have enough moments together that you're kind of like, I think he's a little responsible for this. The mom's obviously. She never knew her mom.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, it's.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just an interesting question.

[Heidi Gardner]

He feels present to me. Like, he's a workaholic. But a lot of that work we see on site as at home. At home, for me, it. Seeing their relationship always felt like a dream scenario. Especially when they bring home the, like, takeout, which. Yeah, it just. I'm like, this kind of seems cool. Dad's working a lot. I get to help. I get to highlight some numbers.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, Exactly. She's pitching in. Like, he's trying to instill some sort of work ethic.

[David Sims]

That's part of it. He's successful in doing that. And also the journey of this movie is her understanding why. To do things for other people.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

But very early on, she is cons as much as she is trying to.

[Griffin Newman]

Get him to drink his juice. And she's like, you know, this is what I'm saying. Like, it's the balance she strikes here. Is impossible.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Most movies, you just make the dad more of a hard ass or more of a comical. Right. Like, and she just does enough to make their relationship feel very, like, grounded, despite how cartoonish she is.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You know what they said, which I thought was really interesting? She was basically legally emancipated at 15, I think. Alicia Silverstone.

[Griffin Newman]

Alicia Silverstone, yeah. Yeah, sure. She had it quite dramatic.

[David Sims]

They filmed this movie. She's 17, but she's been emancipated and working for, like, two years. She's done the trilogy of Aerosmith videos, and she did the Crush, which was her one other.

[Griffin Newman]

That's her first big movie.

[David Sims]

Right. And this is also just. I feel like Seth Rogen did an interview recently when he was promoting the studio, talking about how much the industry's changed in the last 20 years. And he said, the way it used to work is we could write a script like Superbad, and the studios would read it, and if they thought it was funny, they would option it and greenlight it and then go, now who do we cast? If the script was good, then you figure out who you can get. And if you can get a name, you get a name. And then maybe the budget goes up. But if not, they've already committed to making it.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[David Sims]

We'll get unknown stars or rising stars, and we'll make it for cheaper.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And this was a similar thing where just to complete the. The arc of it, her new reps read it, tell her to write it as a full feature script. It's set up at Fox. It's being developed for. @ Fox for a while. Then her and twin Kaplan have said there were a rash of movies that were seen as dumb comedies about stupid people that flopped. I think a lot of Airheads is.

[Griffin Newman]

The big one, big roadblock. Pcu.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

But the big roadblock, Amy Heckerling says, is that there was a movie called Airheads that didn't do very well. Now, we all know Airheads, a funny movie. And so the movie being called Clueless was hurting it. That is, until Scott Rudin.

[David Sims]

Rudin, yes. The king of string cheese.

[Griffin Newman]

Olympic phone thrower Scott Rudin gets his hand on the script. He had just produced the Addams Family. He also produced the Firm. And the minute he gets his hand on the script, there's a bidding war. She's great. Like, nothing had changed about the project at all.

[David Sims]

Didn't change a comment.

[Griffin Newman]

His involvement just gets Fox drops it.

[David Sims]

Puts it in turnaround. He reads it, says, this is good. And then everyone bids again. Against it competitively. Paramount, she's thrilled with because she's like, they own MTV and Nickelodeon. They have, like, the distribution systems to promote this to the audience we need to get to. But then immediately is like, I want to cast Alicia Silverstone. I think she had Alicia Silverstone in mind even when it was set up at Fox.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. She always wanted the Crush girl slash.

[David Sims]

The Aerosmith girl, and was like, you know, she's untested as a movie star, and yet they were just like, she's kind of buzzy.

[Griffin Newman]

Fox wanted Reese Witherspoon or Angelina Jolie.

[Heidi Gardner]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

Crazy to think about. Heckerling was dead set on her. Alicia Witt apparently read and came close. Tiffany Thiessen coming off as Saved by the Bell. Keri Russell was considered for this role. There was another girl that they were like, you gotta go see this girl. She's in this movie called Flesh and Bone. Gwyneth Paltrow. Heckerling didn't get around to seeing it. Josh was a nightmare to cast. Adam Horowitz was her first choice.

[David Sims]

That kind of makes sense.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, totally. Ben Affleck was. I mean, it's just these names where you're like, jesus. All these guys were just floating around.

[David Sims]

What's crazy about it, too, is sometimes you read about these, like, casting what ifs, and you're like, bullet dodge. They ended up with the only person who could have played this. I think they landed on the best cast possible. And yet you read the alternates, and it speaks to, like, a generation of talent bubbling totally where you're like, Chappelle was, like, number two for Murray, right?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You know, they're all these. They could all work. Yeah, but she's 17. When they filmed this, and Heckerling and Kaplan said, like, when she got on set and just started on the first day, she so immediately had it. And she was bringing the missing piece that we couldn't have written, which was. There was an innocence to her and a childlike quality to her and, like, a guilelessness that was just came out of her actually being that young. And, like, the Haitians thing was actually just her mispronouncing that word. Right. And she went to the crew and was like, no one correct her. We couldn't have planned this better. It says so much about the character. And she's nailing this monologue. No one make her self conscious about it.

[Griffin Newman]

She rocks. Also considered. Okay, whatever. Brittany Murphy is brought in very early, and she is just like, Tyler. Right. Like, that's just such a natural performance. She's so good. We all love Brittany Murphy, obviously. Dan Hidea, she wanted Harvey Keitel, but he was too expensive. But that's the vibe she was going for. She saw Blood simple and was like, that guy. Lauryn Hill was the first choice for Dion. Or was it the one that Stacey Dash beat out? Stacey Dash is very good in this movie.

[David Sims]

Famously 29 years old.

[Griffin Newman]

She is. She does read older, too. Yeah. But I just like that she's meaner but not too mean.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

If that makes sense. And like that she's kind of like, all right, Cher. You know, like when Cher wants to do something nice and then she's like, eh, this is kind of fun. But like, she's not that nice. But she's nice enough. She feels grown up, though.

[David Sims]

Yes. Twin Kaplan, who I keep on referencing, who plays Ms. Geist. She's also her producer, was the associate producer and is like, Heckerling's one of her closest collaborators. She said this thing that I've never considered before.

[Griffin Newman]

Sarah Michelle Geller was the runner up for Amber.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Heidi Gardner]

Sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

Just.

[David Sims]

That just makes a lot of sense of. I think a thing I love about teen movies is she was like, the great thing about making teen movies is you get to cast new people who are so full of energy and so eager to prove themselves. If you have a cast of like 20 teenagers, you're getting all these people who are, like, just trying to make their mark and they show up to set with so much energy and so much like. Like creativity and so many ideas and.

[Heidi Gardner]

Want to bond too, because that energy all together, you just want to make friends. And then you. You know, people in their 30s and 40s are just kind of like, I need my alone time.

[David Sims]

Right. No one's throwing around weight. And you, like, watch all this, like, B roll behind the scenes footage they have. And it's just everyone doing bits in between takes, which then feeds into the energy.

[Griffin Newman]

DP Phil. Bill Pope. The great Bill Pope.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

One of the greatest cinematographers alive who.

[David Sims]

Does the Matrix trilogy and Spider Man 2 and army of Darkness.

[Griffin Newman]

But he says this is the most fun he ever had making a movie like. And that he had. They had no money and he had to do lots of sort of innovative stuff, which is often true with him. That's him making Bound around the same time. And he says, if we'd had more money, we would have fucked this movie up. We would have, like, shot ourselves in the foot somehow.

[David Sims]

He meets with her and says, how do you want this movie to look? And she said, happy and he said, what does happy mean? And she said, you know, like, happy. And so he went through and got, like, a reference book full of photos of things that he thought captured happiness and brought this giant book to her. Her. And laid it all out, and she was like, happy. Not happy, happy. And he was like, truly, as much as that sounds vague, by the end of it, I had a completely solid idea. I was able to look at the commonalities because she was throwing something out, which is like, I know how I want it to feel. So now let's figure out. Let's reverse engineer what creates the kind of imagery that conveys that feeling.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. Because I. You know, growing up in the Midwest, even watching Clueless now and seeing the way they dress and the hats and, you know, I was watching a lot of movies. Tv. I loved Saved by the Bell, but it makes me. I'd never seen something that looked like that. I'd seen cool girls before, cool guys, but stylistically it's different. And so I am like, wait, is that what people looks like in Beverly Hills, like? Or did someone just nail that aspirational element?

[David Sims]

I think so. In a way, it's the same as the language, where it's like, she took, like, 10% inspiration from the real world. She, like, heightened it by 90% comedically and put her own spin on it. But then it impacted the culture in a way where then it did become the thing.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like, there's this odd sort of like, she came up with this warped version of what was actually going on that then became the model that everyone copied.

[Griffin Newman]

But you're incredible. You're right, Heidi, This.

[David Sims]

That.

[Griffin Newman]

This does feel like science fiction in a way. Like, fast, original, and high. You watch it now and you're like, I love this aesthetic. I love their clothes.

[David Sims]

This feels like a documentary.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, 100%. And this, you're just like, they are space aliens.

[Heidi Gardner]

Like, they are.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Especially Cher and Dion.

[Heidi Gardner]

Especially Dion. Like, that last scene at the wedding when Dion has the flowers in her hair, you know, they just figure out a new. It's just so colorful.

[David Sims]

And, yeah, cher has, like, 55 outfits in this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

That rocks.

[David Sims]

The costume budget was $200,000.

[Griffin Newman]

It should have gotten an Academy Award nomination. It's. It's one of the classic examp of when the Oscars don't recognize contemporary costume design.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Every look in this movie is a snatching. Even, like, the boys. Even how the boys all have a very specific look. Like Elton with his big, baggy sweaters.

[Heidi Gardner]

But also the Elton at prom he's like, got. He almost looks like a vampire. He's got puffy sleeves. And I got that recently where I was like, wait. And I can't remember.

[Griffin Newman]

My foot hurts. Can I go to the bathroom? Can I go to the nurse?

[Heidi Gardner]

It's Elton, and I can't remember. I think he's dancing with Amber at that point there. It looks. It's low key. You're seeing it, like, far away. But I'm like, wait, those looks, too. And it's different. It's like he was wearing a hoodie, and now he's interviewed with a vampire. It's like, who did this? This is genius.

[Griffin Newman]

There's one outfit that Amber has. This one. Oh, God. It's these outfits that you glimpse for, like, two seconds where she's got, like, a sort of stewardess uniform, but there's.

[David Sims]

Like, a gold dollar sign on the costume design. And can you call out her name? Mona Mae, I think is her name.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Let me look it up.

[David Sims]

Said that the game for Amber was that all of her outfits.

[Griffin Newman]

Mona May themed.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Amber's maybe trying a little too hard.

[Heidi Gardner]

In a way, which I can totally tell, and it's great and so camp. But recently watching it again, there's one outfit she has. I think it's during, like, maybe the debate scene or it's a classroom scene. She has a black sweater on, just a black tank on the sleeves. There's, like, furry cuffs on the sleeves. And like, she kind of walks past. I only see a little of her bottoms. And I was like, are those jeans? And I was shocked to see Amber in jeans, but it was, like, the most, like, just understated outfit. But it was. I was almost like, oh, I want to wear that outfit now. It's, like, very cool, but it's just like, I'm like, well, why did you even decide she gets jeans? It looks so cool, like, but everything.

[David Sims]

In this movie feels, like, so thought through and deliberate in that way.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes. I'm like, there's a reason for the jeans, and the reason is the outfit looks great, but I'm just still shocked. Box. Because it's Amber.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Is Cher's yellow sort of tartan, like, suit skirt. Like, is that her? The most iconic look in Clueless. Like, it's. It's a tough debate.

[Ben Hosley]

There's the red plaid. That's really matching outfit.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Ty has some amazing looks in this.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And I like that the looks Cher finds for Ty are not the looks Cher would wear. Like, that's how much of an eye Share has.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

She can dress anybody.

[Ben Hosley]

Like, she's, like, preppy but still grunge.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. She knows how to find ties. Niche. Right.

[David Sims]

Also, go back to Dan. Hedaya has raised Cher well because she's not trying to impose her world on everyone else.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

She is trying the best that she can to help other people in the way they want to be helped.

[Heidi Gardner]

She's spoiled, but I almost feel like it's in a good way. Like, he calls her out for the traffic tickets, but like any teenager, she's.

[Griffin Newman]

Still taking the first notice.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. She's still gonna go drive, but she is going home and getting called out for these things, you know? Like, he's.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, she's spoiled in that she has whatever clothes she wants.

[David Sims]

Y.

[Griffin Newman]

But she doesn't seem like she's required, certainly, to, like, get good grades and kind of, like, do her work. What?

[Ben Hosley]

The joke of any time there's, like, a cutscene, and then she has a new shopping bag.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Ben Hosley]

It just. They hit that over and over again, and it's funny every single time.

[Heidi Gardner]

And he has to spoil. Like, if you really think about it, he lost his wife.

[Griffin Newman]

He's not the one kid.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. Like, you got to spoil your. Your baby girl.

[David Sims]

He's recently divorced with clothes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Yes. I also like that this. I mean, again, this is what happens when you watch Share a Clueless a thousand times when Josh's mom calls looking for him. A character we never meet who is just whatever. The lady that. Right. Hedaya was married to for a few years.

[David Sims]

She likes divorce wives. Not.

[Griffin Newman]

She's like, okay, sweetie, I'll see you later. Everybody likes Cher. Right. Like, you know, Cher would be a good stepdaughter to have. It's clear. Like, Cher was, like, not a pain about having a step.

[David Sims]

I think another rookie mistake would be to have Josh and Cher hate each other until the end.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Instead, they're just kind of like, Josh makes some jokes at her expense, but he clearly respects her, and it's what makes the moment of him standing up being like, she's not dumb.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

So affecting is. He knows that and has always known that.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's not a thing he's learned. It's very easy to sort of, like, make the superficial jokes about her, but he loves when she's able to call out the Polonius thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Polonius moment. So good.

[David Sims]

Right. And she, like, is able to make fun of him for being boring.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

But she thinks he's smart. She doesn't dislike him ever.

[Heidi Gardner]

No, no.

[Griffin Newman]

Why does he keep coming over there?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

He hang out with Mel.

[Heidi Gardner]

But also, it is a mansion.

[Griffin Newman]

It is a mansion. And he can, like, sit by the pool. But I love that he sits by the pool in, like, long sleeves to read Nietzsche.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Go in the pool.

[Heidi Gardner]

You said we never see his mom, right? I think we actually see her once at the wedding. Or I think that woman who's sitting next to him when Cher's walking down the aisle and smiles at him. There's a woman who, like, gives him a look like something's changed. And I'm like. And it doesn't make sense that Josh's mom would be at Mrs. Sky's wedding.

[Griffin Newman]

Who knows? It's a small look. Beverly Hills is small. Right. Like, as much as. Right. As much as all the.

[David Sims]

It also doesn't necessarily make sense the wedding would happen in Cher's backyard community.

[Griffin Newman]

Cher has kind of taken control of Ms. Geist's, like, life, and you have.

[David Sims]

To imagine that, like, Cher would invite her.

[Heidi Gardner]

True.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. I want your mom to come right in the.

[David Sims]

In the name of, like, let's everyone be friendly. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Well, I. The impression I get is that the. The. Her dad broke up with the mom because he's a workaholic. They probably didn't even dislike each other. They probably just never saw each other.

[Heidi Gardner]

100%.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Because they're both divorced. They both have not. You know, they have kids already.

[David Sims]

And.

[Griffin Newman]

Anyway.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Ben.

[Ben Hosley]

What's up, Griff?

[David Sims]

America loves Tracker.

[Ben Hosley]

The show.

[David Sims]

CBS is tracker.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Justin Hartley is tracker.

[Ben Hosley]

It's impressive.

[David Sims]

Holter Shaw, lone wolf survivalist with extensive tracking skills who travels the country as a rewardist.

[Ben Hosley]

My man just picks up a little bit of dirt, and he could, like, figure out where somebody going.

[David Sims]

He tracks things. And why are we all staying glued to the tube watching Tracker week after week?

[Ben Hosley]

Because we want to see what kind of awesome adventures he gets into.

[David Sims]

Wish fulfillment. We're living out our dream lives. We all wish we could track the way that he does, because I know I have a hard time tracking where my money goes.

[Ben Hosley]

Jeez, you're telling me I'm a mess.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I can't keep track of this thing, and I own it until I give it away in exchange for goods or services.

[Ben Hosley]

I truly don't know what's coming in, what's coming out.

[David Sims]

I'm dining out. I'm eating food. I'm putting food in my system. I'm handing money out of my wallet over to a restaurant, and I go, where did that dang Stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

Go.

[Ben Hosley]

No idea.

[David Sims]

Not to mention food delivery, online shopping. Shopping. Retail therapy. Ever heard of it, Ben? You get some packages delivered to the office.

[Ben Hosley]

I do get a lot of packages, you know, and I. I gotta tell you truly, if I was charged twice, I wouldn't even know it.

[David Sims]

And here's the thing. I do sometimes, okay, yeah, I order clothes, they come to my home, I wear them, then I call up a ride share service which takes me to a restaurant where I pay money. Food, Food. And then go out and see an expensive concert.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, I hear it.

[David Sims]

And I'm not getting rich doing that. No, everyone else is getting rich around me and I've lost track.

[Ben Hosley]

Well, here's the thing, Griff. Finances can be messy and confusing. Monarch money acts like your personal cfo, giving you full visibility and control so you can stop earning and start growing.

[David Sims]

It's more than your average budgeting at Monster. Monarch Money is a complete financial command center for your accounts, investments and goals. Don't just manage your money. Start building wealth with 50% off your first year. For our listeners, Ben. Our listeners. Listeners of the Blank Check podcast. Because you might learn something surprising about your finances when you. When you use Monarch. For example, I don't know, overspending on shopping, finding an unexpected spending pattern, Identifying why you aren't saving as much as you meant to. Realizing you're wasting money. Learning you could max out your 401k. Realizing how stressful juggling more than one finance app is. Or even discovering something as wild as the fact that Robin Weigert was a regular on season one of CBS's tracker and has since left the show. Gone down to a sort of light recurring basis. Teddy Bear Bruin, one of Colter's handlers. Finding cases for him to take and doing background research for him.

[Ben Hosley]

While on cases, start managing your finances to build the life you actually want. Without a clear financial picture, financial dreams can feel out of reach. Monarch makes managing money simple, even for busy lives. Track your spending, savings and investments effortlessly so you can focus on what matters most, making your biggest, biggest life goals a reality.

[David Sims]

Monarch is the financial tool people actually love. Join over 1 million households. Sounds like something Dr. Evil would say. They were named Wall Street Journal's best budgeting app of 2025. That's this year. And the top recommended personal finance app by users and experts with over 30,000 five star reviews. And one of those reviews might BE From Abby McEnament, who plays Velma Bruin on CBS's Tracker, the wife of Robin Weigart's Teddy character. Who has remained a regular on the show, even though Teddy has kind of slipped away from the main cast. So, listen, get control of your overall finances with Monarch Money. Use code checkonarchmoney.com in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at Monarch Money. With code code check.

[Ben Hosley]

I gotta watch Tracker.

[David Sims]

Wait, you're not already watching Tracker?

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

It's the biggest show in the world.

[Griffin Newman]

David. Yes.

[David Sims]

This episode of Blank Check is brought to you by booking.combooking. yeah, I got confused for a second.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, no.

[David Sims]

I thought my glasses were fogged up.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Because I'm looking across the room at your handsome mug. For a second I thought, is Matt LeBlanc here?

[Griffin Newman]

Why did you think that?

[David Sims]

Because I'm looking at a man with a plan. I'm looking at a man who likes making plans. You don't like leaving things up to chance?

[Griffin Newman]

No, I hate. I like to plan things very, very carefully.

[David Sims]

Actually, you like to organize a trip. And you know what's helpful for that? Booking.com.

[Griffin Newman]

That'S right. Right.

[David Sims]

From vacation rentals to hotels across the U.S. booking.com has the ideal summer stay for absolutely anyone. Even those who might seem impossible to please, like Phoebe Buffet, who's got very specific tastes.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, whether you're booking for yourself, your partner, your sleep light early rise mom, or your high maintenance group chat. I'm always booking for that group chat.

[David Sims]

Yeah, well, your family is a bit of a group chat.

[Griffin Newman]

True. You can find exactly what you're booking for on booking dot com.

[David Sims]

Tell me about your hotel preferences, David.

[Griffin Newman]

I love a sauna and hot tub.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Anything spa. I love. You know what I love? A robe. Give me a robe.

[Ben Hosley]

Customized robe.

[Griffin Newman]

Give me a fluffy robe.

[David Sims]

Now, are we talking hot tub in room, like kind of comically shaped hot tub? A heart. A big martini glass. Is that what you want in room? Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Some. Some strawberries.

[David Sims]

You want strawberries?

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know. They're always fun.

[David Sims]

You want strawberries in your stay, David, you know what I like when I'm on vacation?

[Griffin Newman]

What do you like?

[David Sims]

A giant bed. I like to get a comically large California king. Yeah, you know what? Yeah. I feel like a Hollywood king. Sure. I get the kind of bed you couldn't fit into a New York City apartment and a bed that is comically oversized for a tiny little man like me.

[Ben Hosley]

And what's great about booking.com is it gives you all of these different filters and options when you're searching for a place to stay. Yes. Where you can, you know, say, I would like to have the largest bed.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

Possible.

[David Sims]

Possible. You might be surprised to hear I'm pretty specific in my bathroom preferences as well. Another thing that Booking.com helps me filter out to make sure I got exactly what I need. Here's the thing. If David can find. Find his perfect stay on booking.com, anyone.

[Griffin Newman]

Can true find exactly what you're booking for booking.com booking. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Book today on the site or in the app.

[Griffin Newman]

Clueless. So Clueless begins with a great montage set to kids in America. This movie has a banging soundtrack, obviously, like kind of like, like Fast Times where she just like picks stuff of the moment that's really, really good.

[David Sims]

Although a thing I think that's smart is Fast Time. She's obviously like closer to that age, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And she's getting older.

[David Sims]

Picking music that she likes to make the kids about as hip as she is. She knows she's getting older here. And so half the soundtrack is cool, modern covers of songs that Amy Heckerling likes. You know, like, she's doing a lot of, like, covers of 70s and 80s songs and then stuff like Radiohead.

[Griffin Newman]

There's Radiohead, there's Mighty Mighty Boss Tone appear Cameo.

[Ben Hosley]

I always loved about the Mighty, Mighty Boss Tones that they had a dancing man.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, you got to have a dancing man.

[Ben Hosley]

I mean, it's kind of. It's definitely a thing in the SCA scene.

[David Sims]

Every time I watch it, I. I get confused and I think it's going to be the. The Never Knock on Wood song, which I know isn't Boss Tones, but sounds so much like it. Do you know what song I'm talking about?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, that. I think that is called the Impression that I Get.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

But it's not the song in this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I guess it's just small. Where do you go?

[David Sims]

Boston's having a real specific sound.

[Griffin Newman]

Did you ever Scar face, Ben?

[Ben Hosley]

Unfortunately, yes.

[Griffin Newman]

How long did you like the Boss Tones? What are other SC bands?

[Ben Hosley]

I would say the big one for me. I mean, there's all the British stuff, which is great, but there was catch 22, which is a Jersey band, and I went to see them a couple of times.

[David Sims]

Did you have a real big fish band?

[Ben Hosley]

I did less than Jake the Toasters. I mean, there was so much of like the mid-90s into the aughts of just. I think they called it third Wave Ska.

[Griffin Newman]

SCA is one of those things that someone had to explain to me what it was.

[Ben Hosley]

Suicide Machines.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, sure.

[Heidi Gardner]

Can I ask a SCA if these are considered ska. Because now no Doubt is kind of ska.

[Griffin Newman]

Or they began as they started as ska.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

So I went to a no Doubt concert. There were three bands on the bill and I. I was just lucky to see no Doubt. But then it was the urge and 311. Would you say those two are.

[Griffin Newman]

So 311 are kind of like a jam band, right? Or are they not? I don't. Aren't they like fish?

[Ben Hosley]

They don't have enough brass, I think in their. You got to have.

[Griffin Newman]

According to Wikipedia, the Urge combines several genres. Hardcore punk, sca, reggae, funk. It sounds like they're in that world.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

311, I think, is maybe like Ray Gay more.

[Heidi Gardner]

I don't know. I see how it all came together, but I've always wondered, was I at a pure sca? I don't think I was.

[David Sims]

I. I did clock that in the first 90 seconds of this movie. I paused it at 90 seconds to check the runtime. There are three different needle drops in the first 90 seconds.

[Griffin Newman]

Kids in America, I don't know what.

[David Sims]

Else the fashion by David Bowie plays for like 20 seconds.

[Heidi Gardner]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

And then on turn right, because that's during her. Right, we see her line life. She has a perfect life. It looks like a Noxzema commercial or whatever her joke is. But you know, she's got her computer that sorts her clothes for her, right? She's got her. Her daddy, who she's giving orange juice to.

[Ben Hosley]

The computer's so sick.

[David Sims]

The computer's closet was a big. Right. September of that year when all the girls come back from summer break and to watch Clueless. It had become the greatest aspiration. Computerized closet.

[Griffin Newman]

Closet exists. That actually feels like science.

[David Sims]

Richie Rich has McDonald's in his house as the number one cool thing could have.

[Heidi Gardner]

And some girl got it. I'm sure some girl got it. Some girl got it.

[Griffin Newman]

I love the joke that she and Dion are both named after great singers of the past who now do infomercials. That was like. So some of those jokes my mom had to explain to me, right? She's like laughing so hard and I'm like, what? What do you. What? Who's Dion? What are you talking about? And she would just. And I think this was just important building me up as the well rounded person that I am today. You know what I mean?

[Heidi Gardner]

I love that you would even ask or had a parent that would explain. I just laughed at everything and never ask. Like in planes, trains, where his hands between two pillows. I just didn't get that until maybe a year ago. Like, really didn't really. I was still laughing at what I thought I was laughing at.

[Griffin Newman]

You just weren't thinking about it.

[Heidi Gardner]

I didn't think butt cheeks. I just didn't. I just didn't go anywhere near it.

[David Sims]

I have a very distinct memory of going to see something about Mary with my dad. And the hair gel scene happens. They come on the ear and my dad's laughing hysterically. And I said, what is that? And through tears, he went, I don't know. Just didn't want to have to explain it to me in the moment. And pretended that he. I went, why are you laughing? He went, I don't know. I just. I. I don't know what it is. Pay attention to the movie. Just watch the movie. And I was sitting there doing the math, and I was like, what are things I've heard people talk about that are inappropriate that I haven't seen yet? And I had the very distinct thought, I guess that must be a condom. That's. My memory is sitting there at like 8 or whatever. Something about Mary and being like, a condom must be goo.

[Heidi Gardner]

Oh, God.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, man. So Cher goes to school with Dion, and she's raised rich, and Dion is rich, and Dion is dating Murray.

[David Sims]

And Faison's so good.

[Heidi Gardner]

He's so.

[Griffin Newman]

Every second of that guy is funny.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Heidi Gardner]

There should be more.

[Griffin Newman]

He's always funny. Yeah, he's always.

[David Sims]

He's always funny.

[Griffin Newman]

He kind of is like Paul Rudd and all these other guys where I'm like, he also aged superbly.

[David Sims]

Oh, he has aged incredibly.

[Griffin Newman]

He's the fucking same. Like now, basically. He's so good.

[David Sims]

Well, here's another interesting thing, because I'm keeping it real.

[Griffin Newman]

My favorite is when he's, like, shaving his head. Cause he's keeping it real. Real.

[David Sims]

His hair has barely changed so many.

[Heidi Gardner]

And she's so mad. I have to clock in my head every time. I'm like, is it that much of a change?

[David Sims]

Oh, it's not at all. So many of these 90s studio comedy guys end up in the Robot Chicken sphere because of Seth Green, obviously. And he was similar, I think, like, doing voices for whatever. And then he got really interested in the art of stop motion. He does his own stop motion now.

[Griffin Newman]

Faison.

[David Sims]

If you follow Faison on Instagram, he just posts, like, 22nd social media stop motion test.

[Heidi Gardner]

He fully went and worked at Stupid Buddy Studios where they do Robot Chicken.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Heidi Gardner]

I think he interned there.

[David Sims]

This guy just seems lovely. He's always funny.

[Heidi Gardner]

It's like how Ken Griffey Jr. Now is a sports photographer. He just photographs at the Masters.

[David Sims]

I didn't know this.

[Heidi Gardner]

At the Masters.

[Griffin Newman]

He was like an accredited photographer. You know, it's like, it's not. He's doing it for fun. Like he was in the photo pool.

[David Sims]

You know, the fact that this guy was just like, this is really cool. Can I intern here? Like, I want to learn this the right way.

[Griffin Newman]

He's done everything like, right, right. He doesn't. There's nothing else he needs to do. He's also in the amazing movie Uptown Girls starring Brittany Murphy. He's in Josie and the Pussycats.

[David Sims]

Well, yeah, which we've covered, obviously with Brecken Myers.

[Ben Hosley]

He also hosts a podcast with Zach Brad.

[Griffin Newman]

Interesting. And are they watching old episodes of Scrubs on that one?

[David Sims]

No, weirdly, they're watching old episodes of Friends.

[Griffin Newman]

That would be funny. Yeah. You know what? Yeah, exactly. We're like, we like Frasier. We're just going to recap. Frasier. Fuck you. You don't get to learn anything about Scrubs. No behind the scenes tales for you. So. Okay, so, yeah, it's hard to do the plot of Clueless. It's a pretty gentle movie. Cher. Yeah. She's got Job. Gosh, we've. We've already sort of laid out all the. About the, the sort of. The setup here.

[Ben Hosley]

I love in high school movies where they establish the rules of the world in the clicks and go through and show everyone, the stoner kids. I just, I always love how these movies have that in the beginning and just, it's. It's like, well, this is another. An important thing. And I think as a kid, another.

[David Sims]

Thing I love about high school movies is like the ensemble ecosystem where you sort of have these feelings of like, this is another thing we lose when studios stop making theatrical comedies. Right? Which is like comedy's made with a proper budget and a proper scale where you're able to build full sets or like get good locations and have like 25 primary actors on set every day. Not like we have to shoot this person out in four days because they're only in three scenes. Everyone's in the background of every sequence. Like, you're constantly feeling like there is a cohesive world to all these cliques bouncing off each other. Other. Even when the guy's not the focus of this shot.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You're seeing Faison in the background. Yes, he's there.

[Heidi Gardner]

I mean, anytime someone tells me like, oh, the whole movie takes place in a car, I'm like, bummer, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Let's go places.

[Heidi Gardner]

I mean, maybe it's worked in some way, but I'm like, yeah, let's go places and meet a bunch of people.

[Griffin Newman]

And like, yeah, there. Ty doesn't enter for the first 15, 20 minutes. The first 20 minutes.

[David Sims]

This movie is her getting the bad.

[Griffin Newman]

Report, getting the bad, the bad grade in debate from Wallace Shawn and embarking on the setup between twin Caplan and.

[David Sims]

Wallace Shawn and then having the moment of self realization of I feel good that I made other people happy.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. It's not just that I did it to get my grade up. I'm thrilled by the connection I forged. They are so cute. Old people can be so cute, as they say.

[Ben Hosley]

I love that they established that they're students, but it's not a typical teacher student relationship where it feels a little bit like they don't have to take school that seriously. They're not like bad kids necessarily. There's just this nuance there that I've really picked up.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the way they're all sitting differently in their chairs.

[David Sims]

Like, this is the part of this movie that watching it last night finally hit for me of like, this is too close to home. Oh, and that like, I did not go to Beverly Hills High.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But I went to like the weirdo, New York, New York, liberal artsy, rich kid version of that where I, I, it was in that scene in particular where I was like, oh, right. This is the thing that I'm so grossed out by looking back at my own high school is like, all the kids felt too empowered.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And when Ty has the line about like all of you speak like grown ups.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[David Sims]

Like all my high school classes where everyone being like, okay, whatever you say, Mr. Blank. You know, like a little like, we're all equals here. And yet the teachers beating you on.

[Ben Hosley]

They have to of accept it. Like that's just what the vibe just.

[Griffin Newman]

Elton being like, I left my cranberry cd. Could I get a pass? Like the, the, the, the gym practice where Cher just gives the speech about like, this is not like a pro enough athletic. And she's like, okay. And then she just goes back a.

[David Sims]

Combination of like, all these kids have clearly been very empowered and supported by their parents. And also because they're in like an actual hub of culture, they're like, we're not cool for high school. We're cool in the real world. We are wearing actual top designer fashions. We're going to the actual cool concerts.

[Heidi Gardner]

They don't hear no a lot Right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

No, they're not hearing. You're right. So then, yeah, the first thing is Wallace Sean and Twin Caplan. Wallace Sean, king of the 90s, you know, comedy. Right. I mean, come in.

[David Sims]

But you see this arc of her. Like, I can finesse all my grades up and everyone else, she has a better angle. But this guy, she can't fucking talk around. She has to change something in his life to change his point of view.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Which is another great hedaya thing that he's. I mean, it's when he says, like, I couldn't be prouder than if you actually got good grades. That he has raised her to understand how to like, argue. Argue her way into things.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, but Right. Cher's first real moment of altruism is adopting Tyler, which Dionne is against because Dion's like, this will hurt our social stock. And Cher is like willing to take the hit.

[David Sims]

But she comes out of the guys thing being like, I want to do more of this. She's still doing it in a somewhat self serving way of like, what makes her feel good is making other people cool. It is the thing she feels the most confident in. I know how to like train someone. I can do a mini My Fair lady on anybody, which makes me feel powerful. And there's enough compassion that she's trying to do it their way. She's not dressing misguised like herself. She's not dressing ty like herself. But it still is a reflection of, look how hip I am.

[Heidi Gardner]

Totally.

[Griffin Newman]

And Josh is sort of impressed with it too. When he watches them doing Buns of Steel together, he recognizes that she is sort of. That she means well. Right?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And God, he's so cute. Everyone's so cute. Everything's so colorful. I just have the movie on right now.

[David Sims]

Paul Rudd is my number one go to that's what I wish I look like guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure. Yeah. Any. Any era of Paul Rudd, basically. When's Rudd hottest?

[David Sims]

When's he hottest? I kind of like every look. I've invoked this before in the podcast, but I had a gay friend be like, you're not like queer at all. And I was like, no. And he was like, like, if you had to sleep with one guy, who would it be? And I said, paul Rudd. He went, fuck, you are straight.

[Griffin Newman]

That's so straight.

[David Sims]

That's the straightest answer I've ever. But when I look at him, I'm like, God, that's the best a guy can look. And I think part of it is also that he's so funny and I'm like, I wish. That is, I. I wish I could perform the exact same way as him. I wish I moved like him.

[Griffin Newman]

I think so. Even Mean Girls, which is sort of the Clueless of the next generation. Right. Which is a good movie, Right. Has a little more stakes to it, I guess, in the sort of popularity on popularity thing. Clueless doesn't have a. There's no real villain. There's no real threat to their existence anyway. No, it's an animal journey. Like the. The strange thing that happens to her is Ty gets a little more popular than her and she's kind of like, I don't know what to do about that.

[David Sims]

And yeah, she gets like held at gunpoint. But the stakes in the movie are self realization.

[Griffin Newman]

This guy's so sweet. He's not going to shoot her. The way he says thank you.

[Heidi Gardner]

I'm always so shocked when a movie can figure that out where it's just kind of a good hang and you could watch it for hours. I mean, it's great that clueless is 97 minutes, but I feel like. Feel like you could. You're just enjoying it so much. But not a lot of like major stake stuff is happening. Which same with Fast Times. Until the abortion, I feel like, you know, But Clueless is that without the abortion.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, Fast times a little darker. Right. Clueless. It would be weird if there was some big problem in this movie in a way. Like, you're like, these people don't have that kind of life.

[David Sims]

I think the narration helps it a lot because you are so centered from the point of view of the character and you're in her head and you understand the way she thinks. And so you're starting the movie kind of laughing at her a little bit more and then staying on the journey of her starting to like, reassess things and get a better understanding of the universe. That's another thing, by the way, that is just, I think, very underrated. As like a tricky directing thing is. Here is a movie that's like 50% montage and is going in and out of narration. And there was a clip I saw in one of the behind the scenes things where Amy Heckerling is watching playback of a tape and her script supervisor has a stopwatch and she's reading out loud the voiceover narration to make sure before they print the take. Is that gonna time out? Well, because of course, in the moment, she's just filming Alicia Silverstone doing the thing. And then later in a oner, she's gonna need to have Alicia Silverstone have the space to do that proper voiceover.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. And it's so, like, marvelously done too, because it's so narration heavy in the beginning. Yes. And then there's points where it really takes a break, you know, and then she pops back in. It's just, it's so perfectly crafted in.

[Griffin Newman]

That way and it shouldn't obviously, like doing voiceover. Narration can really blow up in your face. But it's perfect because she's so self assured and it's that kind of classic. Like when you have a unreliable narrator but she doesn't know, like when she sounds like whatever. Not clueless, I guess. Right. Like she doesn't get the moments where she sounds a little.

[David Sims]

We talked about in our Higher Learning episode, weirdly, the concept of like page 20 knowledge of when you get to page 20 of the book and you're like, yeah, I think I get this.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And like this kind of empowered teenager is like, I think I figured everything out. I'm 16 now. I get it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And it's why it helps to be inside her head because, like the narration dips away when she's starting to question her understanding of reality, which at the beginning of the movie. Movie is so solidified in her life.

[Griffin Newman]

She's half right. She does have life figured out. It's just that she's not mature and she sort of know, like, she hasn't had sex and she hasn't really date. Like she's known, I guess, not to dip into stuff that she doesn't know how to control.

[Heidi Gardner]

Maybe this is why I feel like women my age who saw Clueless at the time they did, are also super into the whole Real Housewives franchise because, like, the thing you want, want, I feel like as a woman is to watch someone aspirational and not self aware and completely themselves. And that makes for really good television. Like, and that is what you know. There's moments obviously where Cher becomes self aware, but the moments where she's not, it's very funny. And. And she looks great.

[Griffin Newman]

She looks great throughout. Everyone looks great.

[Heidi Gardner]

I was also thinking about when you read the people that were also up for the role of Cher, I was trying to be like, I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, Reese Witherspoon, I think I can see it. Or Angelina Jolie. Da, da, da. But I wonder if it was just having the context of seeing her a little bit in those Aerosmith videos. Like, I don't think I had a context of Gwyneth Paltrow, Angelina Jolie, or Reese Witherspoon before that, I'm sure I saw a very small, like supporting role of them. But there was something about being like, that is the ultimate cool girl who everybody wanted to look like. And yeah, now she gets the next big thing. It was.

[David Sims]

Right. And yet also like kind of didn't have a voice at that point. It was like such a. Like an established piece of iconography.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

There were. She was in three videos.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

There was a trilogy of. Alicia Silverstone is the avatar for Modern Aerosmith as the ultimate cool girl.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And now here's a movie that's like based around her. Talking about.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And you're realizing, like, oh, she knows how to deliver jokes.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. I think that also brought people out to the theater.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. More than the other actresses at the time would have.

[Griffin Newman]

She was also the first person to get a belly button piercing. Like, I know that's not true, but that's sort of what it felt like. It was like she took that mainstream by doing that in the Aerosmith video. Crying is the one and Crazy is another one of them. Right. I'm trying to remember the three.

[Heidi Gardner]

And wait. Crying. Crazy.

[Griffin Newman]

Crying is the one where she falls off the bridge at the end because she's emo.

[David Sims]

Amazing is the third one.

[Griffin Newman]

That one. I don't.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, that one's a little like. It's more in a void. It's taken out of the real world and it's more in a void.

[Griffin Newman]

90S Aerosmith. Where do you fall on that?

[David Sims]

You're more of a Honking on Bobo guy. Right.

[Ben Hosley]

What is that?

[David Sims]

That was their late blues album. Harmonica based blues album called Honking on Bobo. I think it was like 2012.

[Ben Hosley]

I missed that one, Griff. Yeah, Their early days stuff is incredible. Toys in the Attic.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

Quintessential like album of the 70s.

[Griffin Newman]

Is this a 70s?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, for sure.

[Heidi Gardner]

Get a Grip was my first CD.

[Griffin Newman]

So that's 90s Aerosmith. That's like prime 90s. That was your first CD ever, right. Top of the Tower, 1993. Top of the Tower. The tower begins. That's the one with the cow. Utter. Yes, right.

[Ben Hosley]

Oh, sure. With the pierced. One of the pierced.

[Griffin Newman]

And that has Crying and Crazy and.

[Heidi Gardner]

Living on the Edge as well.

[David Sims]

Does it have all three?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, it was amazing. It has all three Silverstones.

[Ben Hosley]

I mean, listen. That it had hits.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. I mean, it's weird. There's so many hits and even not the hits, but it's weird to think of myself as a 9 year old being like living on the edge in my room, like, what the fuck is going on? But I think it was Alicia Silverstone that made it even more palatable for me. It's like, if she signs off on this.

[David Sims]

They were so smart in terms of reinvention.

[Griffin Newman]

We got like, old people should still make music. But, like, why did teens go for them? They looked old.

[David Sims]

In the 80s, they used Run DMC to make themselves relevant again. In the 90s, they used Alicia Silverstone and then later Liv Tyler to make themselves relevant to young girls again.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Permanent Vacation, which is an 80s Aerosmith album, starts off with a song called Hearts Done. Time. Time. And I think it's so good, except for when you put it on. It's so overproduced and, like, loud. You know what I mean? Like, that era of rock music where it was just, like, everyone was just pushing up on all the sliders, and you're like, you don't need to do that. But it was just, I guess, the peak of that era. That's all.

[Heidi Gardner]

Do you remember the song Janie's Got a Gun?

[Griffin Newman]

Of course.

[Heidi Gardner]

So. And that's kind of got an epic video. And I was really into it. Another one where I would have been even younger at that point. I would have been six and a half singing like, janie's got a. But at the time.

[Griffin Newman]

That's from Pump.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes. Okay. My dad had a girlfriend who knew that. I watched the video a lot, didn't think that was appropriate. But then also pulled me aside and was like, I don't want you saying Gun. I don't want you singing that.

[David Sims]

That's about.

[Heidi Gardner]

If you want to sing that. Replace Gun with flower.

[Griffin Newman]

Janie's Got a flower.

[Heidi Gardner]

Janie's Got a Flower was my. My jam.

[Ben Hosley]

Your dad is a huge music fan, right?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[Ben Hosley]

And you have, like, a massive record collection. Cause I watched your ad, and we just have to sh.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

Your home in Kansas City is incredible. The design of it.

[Heidi Gardner]

Thank you.

[Ben Hosley]

It's like, I love watching those. Like, they love that series. And your. Your house is one of the standouts for me.

[Heidi Gardner]

Got a shout out anytime. I love to host.

[David Sims]

We almost talked about this before record, but I need to bring this up now.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Your dressing room at snl.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[David Sims]

Feels very clueless. Styled.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

If not deliberately.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[David Sims]

And you describe it as, like, your dream.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like childhood space.

[Heidi Gardner]

It is. Yes. You know, my childhood bedroom was covered floor to ceiling in cutouts from Entertainment Weekly and Variety and Hollywood Reporter Oscar ads like that. And then posters.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

My dressing room now Is that. But with Christmas lights and chili pepper lights, because my mom loved those. And then things that I wasn't able to buy at the time or memorabilia. Yeah. And so it is just a TV VCR combo. Tv, VCR combo.

[Griffin Newman]

But there's a video people can watch, to be clear.

[Heidi Gardner]

Oh, yeah, I did that on ad.

[Griffin Newman]

On AD as well.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So does everyone get their own dressing room? I don't even know the rules of this.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes. So typically, when you, when you start.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you get like to. You have to move up the ladder?

[David Sims]

Do you have a roommate?

[Heidi Gardner]

Usually I got my own dressing room maybe like three or four seasons in. And then we moved around and we had to spread out more during COVID And then I. I got my own again, like my fifth or sixth season. And then you've seen the dressing room. You know how elaborate it is.

[David Sims]

It's elaborate.

[Heidi Gardner]

Then my, like, seventh season, they were like, hey, sorry. Like, with the cast number, you're gonna have to share again because there's a.

[Griffin Newman]

Lot of people in the cast room.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Cause you also laid down roots. Like, I've been in a couple other SNL dressing rooms and everyone else feels like they have it set up in a way where it's like, I could move out of here in an hour if you needed me to switch.

[Griffin Newman]

If the cops are coming, I can.

[David Sims]

Drop of a hat, I can run your place. You've put down.

[Heidi Gardner]

I have anxiety about when I will need to do the move, but they were like, and you're gonna have to move upstairs. And I was like, I really don't like this. But also just go to my dressing room and if you still feel the same way after being in there, and they're like, okay, you don't have to move. It's.

[Griffin Newman]

They tried to move you off the eighth floor.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Who is your original roommate?

[Heidi Gardner]

My original roommate was Melissa Villasenor. And then Ego was my second year roommate. And then since then, I've been sold out.

[Griffin Newman]

Thing is, it's like college. Like, when people are talking about it, it really does feel that way sometimes.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I, through your extended generosity, I went to the Michael Keaton episode this season. My idol, you love Mike. My guy, my number one guy. And I knew going in that there was a sketch you had been pushing really hard to get on the air. And at the end of dress rehearsal, it was like on the board as the last sketch of the night where it's like, is it going to make it on or not?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And I sat there watching the show and was feeling such secondhand stress the entire fucking time. Where it wasn't like I couldn't enjoy the show, but suddenly I was so hyper fixated on the, like, high school aspect of it.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And all I was doing was watching, like, Lauren standing on the floor and watching people do their sketch. And then the second it ended, look to him for approval. Like, I was so hyper fixed. Like, how are the sets gonna come together in time? And how's everyone feeling right before and after the sketch starts?

[Heidi Gardner]

It's insane. A couple times this season we've had. Because you. Do you see people watching on the floor, like, you know, ego had a big update a couple weeks ago, and people, like, zoomed out to show the crowd on the floor, and it's like, Paul Rudd, Adam Scott, Lin Manuel. There was a sketch I did this season, I'm a huge sports fan, where I did the sketch and then I ran off and three of the San Francisco 49ers trainers who were there, and, like, they were like, yeah, good job. I didn't know that they were there. I was just like, George Kittle and Christian McCaffrey. What?

[Griffin Newman]

They were just there hanging out, just.

[Heidi Gardner]

Like, there to have fun, pumping me up.

[David Sims]

But also, I'm sure you have no time to process that because you already now need to be, like, running somewhere.

[Heidi Gardner]

Else to do something 100%, and you want to take a second to be like. And also, a week ago, I was going out for a sketch and, you know, only had, like, a 90 second change or something. I probably changed in 50 seconds and I had 40 seconds to go. And the cast of Southern Charm was.

[Griffin Newman]

In the hallway just watching that happen.

[Heidi Gardner]

Austin. Oh, my God. Southern Charm. Let me go. And my dresser is like, let's go right in my.

[Griffin Newman]

In. To me. I imagine what they do to Ms. Geist, where, like, you're walking and there are people just, like, taking clothes off of you and putting clothes. Like. Like, it's like, I am. Right.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes. And you're responsible to it. And I'm so comfortable now doing it. And, like, I'll know what I have under. Because sometimes you underdress things. So as I'm. If I know that I have proper amounts of clothing, I'll be changing myself as I'm running. But then I remember there's an audience that thinks I'm about to, like, flash them. I'm like, you still need to go behind a curtain.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, there has to, right?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

The sense of propriety. Yes.

[Heidi Gardner]

Or they're.

[David Sims]

They'll freak out the tableside guac sketch on that episode. Right. I'm like, watching the time narrow.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And I'm looking and I'm like, It's not even 10 to 1. It's like 5 to 1.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Right. How many pages is this sketch supposed to be? To be. And I'm looking on the floor and watching people furiously rewriting cue cards.

[Heidi Gardner]

100%. Yeah.

[David Sims]

And it's like you've had, like, 12 different versions of this sketch over a week. And you're going out there and there have been cuts made 30 seconds before.

[Heidi Gardner]

I know.

[David Sims]

How is your brain not short circuiting?

[Heidi Gardner]

You just have to do it. But it is like a sketch like that, that used to be 10 pages, a typical sketch, like, then becomes four and a half. It makes no sense.

[David Sims]

But you're making these edits that you're.

[Heidi Gardner]

Like, I hope this still works 100%.

[David Sims]

But if you pull this line out the sketch and collapse.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes, yes. It's insane.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, I could just talk about this all day. I'm trying to. Clueless.

[David Sims]

Clueless.

[Griffin Newman]

Clueless. Yeah. So they get the teachers together. That's wonderful. They remake Ty. She's immediately attracted to Travis, but they steer her towards Elton. A about as villainous as a character as there is in Clueless. And he's not villainous really. He's just kind of like a mean rich kid. Right.

[Heidi Gardner]

Just into someone else, which is something we all experience.

[Griffin Newman]

He's got the most kind of like, no, I date, like, a successful rich girl brain. And, I mean, I know who my dad is. Right. And obviously, if you watch Clueless a million times, you realize that Elton is hugging and kissing Cher every single time he's near her.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And she's just completely oblivious. But that all peaks at the party. The party is great. Amy Heckerling is so good at a party. You know what I mean? Fast Times has great partying. This is a great party. Doesn't this feel like a real party?

[David Sims]

Yes, it is one of the special features. I watched this. The suck and blow thing seems to have been the single most difficult thing in the filming of the entire movie where they could not get it to work. They were using a real credit card. They were like, it's not sticking because.

[Heidi Gardner]

Now it looks like a Social Security card.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

So they change it to that because they were like, we need cardboard. It can't be plastic. Then it still wasn't working. So they cut tiny holes in it where they were like, maybe it will keep a suction. That didn't work. So then they Ended up pulling, putting lip gloss and chapstick on everyone's mouths.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, that's so funny.

[David Sims]

But you watch it and it's like as if they were staging like an action set piece and they're like, stressed out that the explosions aren't going off in real time. You watch like, Bill Pope tearing his hair up, being like, okay, how do we fix this?

[Griffin Newman]

I definitely watched that move this movie when I was 10 years old. And I was like, am I gonna have to do that at a party?

[David Sims]

Such a stressful game.

[Griffin Newman]

Kissing, chicken game. Like, what is.

[David Sims]

I'm like, either we're making out or we're not. I'd rather not make out than feel the stress. Is that real?

[Griffin Newman]

Did Clueless make this up? It's made up.

[Heidi Gardner]

I think one of the things that brought forth into our culture. What I love about the party too, and what heck earling does span of time wise, is that it's Christmas around the party and you just know, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You got the snowman.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. And that happens in fast time. And it's just like another comfort moment.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow. There's an entire Vulture article just about the party scene.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Murray's keeping it real, obviously. Tara Reid apparently was on set just hanging out.

[David Sims]

Cool.

[Heidi Gardner]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

But I'm not from California. I don't know the Valley as well. I only know it from movies. But this is what I thought of when I thought of the Valley for so long. This kind of house, this kind of anonymous vibe. Yes.

[Heidi Gardner]

Let's kind of mid century ranch style.

[David Sims]

Well, Also, the great LA joke of everywhere in Los Angeles is 20 minutes away. But he demands she leave the farm.

[Griffin Newman]

That is the thing that was burned in my memory. And then I got to LA and they were like, nothing. You can't get lunch in 20 minutes if it's down the road. Everything takes an hour, like. And is it just that traffic's gotten worse or something?

[David Sims]

Here's what I would say or say is he.

[Griffin Newman]

Does he live in a sort of reality bubble where he's like, everything takes 20 minutes, like, and he doesn't know what time is?

[David Sims]

My experience as someone who goes to LA and now just does ride shares everywhere. Right. As a podcaster who came drive, is that like, if everything is working perfectly, it's all 20 minutes away.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

If there is a minor hiccup on the road, everything becomes an hour.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right. So you're like, if you get lucky, it's somehow 20 minutes to get anywhere.

[Heidi Gardner]

Because Kansas City, if anyone wants that ideal Kansas City really is. Everything's 20 minutes away in a perfect way. Perfectly laid out. Yeah. And there's just never knock on with that much traffic.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

So I do believe it exists. And when I think of about that, the layout of la and I lived there for a long time, it should be like that.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

She gets robbed at gunpoint. I guess this is sort of her lowest point.

[David Sims]

Well, you're skipping over all. She's maneuvering to try to get Ty in the car with Elton.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Yeah.

[David Sims]

And then he is clearly maneuvering to get Cher in the car with him. Our friend Jamie Loftus, the great Jamie Loftus has said that in her mind this is like the best scene of how you deal with. Deal responsibly with a situation where you're being sexually pressured.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

She's like, this is like the thing I would show to high school girls on how to handle it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Because he's not like villainously like sex.

[Griffin Newman]

He'S being a jerky, he's being pushy. And then he's kind of like share. Get back in the car. Get back in the car. Which is like kind of like it's, you know, it's pressurey, it's gross.

[David Sims]

And she's just like really firm about like. I don't feel comfortable with this. Right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

And of course she does get robbed. But she does. You know, and that sucks. But. And her dress gets ruined. Uhuh. I guess.

[David Sims]

But then Josh has to come pick her up. The fact that Josh is so quick to pick her up even when he's making out with a hip, intellectual college student, does start to belie the fact that he maybe has feelings for her. I do love the recurring motif of like you hear the brief snippets of the Radiohead song multiple times and Cher's always kind of dismissed, dismissive of like, oh, you're crunchy like heady college student music. And it's only when she falls for him at the end that like the song plays in full.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And she gets it now.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Heidi Gardner]

This brings up an interesting part for me which I just discussed for someone with someone. Where do we think Josh goes to college?

[David Sims]

Chris, Great question, great question.

[Griffin Newman]

I assumed ucla, but I don't actually know now. He's an undergrad. Right. I know he wants to be a law. He's not in law school.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

The idea is that he's just like. He's like 19.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes. That's what I think.

[Griffin Newman]

Me too. Okay.

[Heidi Gardner]

And I think that we only we see him in his dorm room in that scene with the girl, you know, and otherwise he's at their house or his mom's or something like this. But Easter egg, which is just interesting, is that in a later scene, he's wearing a KU hat, which Paul Rudd went to ku. Yeah. And obviously it was just. But I feel like. Did he just get that by. With wardrobe?

[David Sims]

Because I think so.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Because it doesn't make sense.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. Just college kids don't wear other college hats.

[David Sims]

No, absolutely not.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, maybe he's a huge Jayhawks fan. What were the Jayhawks doing in the 90s?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, well. Oh, that's true. Like, maybe Josh was there.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, it's kind of like a Duke thing, you know, like, not Duke, you know, where it's just, like a big college team. I'm. I'm. I'm really.

[Heidi Gardner]

But who I watched it with was like, do we think he went to ku? And I was like, and he's flying to Beverly Hills?

[David Sims]

No, impossible.

[Griffin Newman]

Why would he. And that's like. Why would he go to, like, a big state school in the middle of the country?

[Heidi Gardner]

That isn't tracking for me. I think if you go that far away from home for school, you're only. You only go home at Christmas, and you're lucky if it's Thanksgiving. But you see your family one time a year.

[Griffin Newman]

I think he goes see USC or UCLA or whatever.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he has to, because she calls him.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

She has to know he's close by.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And he's got a pretentious pseudo girlfriend. Not even girl. I don't know.

[David Sims]

Fling.

[Griffin Newman]

Fling. Something. But we don't know much else about him. Just that he doesn't want to hang out with his mom, I guess. Why? I guess she's just a bummer. Right? I don't know. Or he doesn't know. He doesn't like the new husband. That's what it is.

[Heidi Gardner]

Oh, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. He mentions the new husband.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm sorry. I'm just trying to look up Kansas City, Kansas seasons in the 90s. Just really stressed out.

[Heidi Gardner]

We were. I mean, around that time were great. Roy Williams was right.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the thing.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. I mean, I. I buy it all. I just.

[David Sims]

So that's the internal logic.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

I had for years when I was acting.

[Griffin Newman]

Paul Pierce, Rafael Friends. This is a good T, Jack.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I had a. My Derek Simon, my oldest childhood friend. We made a T shirt of, like, his, like, preschool class photo where he just had a really funny pose where he just kind of, like, looked like a cool guy.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It was like his mom had dressed him like a little gentle. And he was just kind of feeling himself that day as like a three year old. And he looked really confident. And so we made shirts of it and would wear it. And whenever I would do any sort of shoot and they were like, can you bring some T shirts for home? I would always force that shirt on camera because I just thought it was so funny. And I was like, as long as nothing I'm in ever becomes so successful that the T shirt is established, I can keep getting away with this. I can keep doing like fucking college humor shorts shorts where I wear this. And I have to imagine there was a similar thing of Paul Rudd being like, if I can just wear the hat of like my alma mater for five seconds, it's a win. Yeah, it's for me.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

It hopefully doesn't break the reality of the movie too much. Yeah, yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

I was thinking about that recently. I was like, why don't I just lie? Not that I'm on red carpets that much, but like when you're asked what you're wearing, I'm like, why don't I just say, like Kansas City places, Even if they're restaurants.

[David Sims]

Oh, shit, sure.

[Heidi Gardner]

You know, like Winsteads.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

You know, like, just to get it.

[David Sims]

Out there, just to boost it. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone go to Winsteads? Yeah, I'm looking it up. Steak burgers.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

All right. O. This looks fun.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, it's really fun.

[Griffin Newman]

Never been to Kansas City.

[Heidi Gardner]

Well, you're welcome. Everyone's welcome.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

Great city. Very fun.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. So Elton makes his move. She realizes she's been a little foolish about all of this. Of course, Elton was never interested in talking Tai. He's a bit of a self entitled jackass. So now Ty's bummed out. Cher is bummed out.

[David Sims]

You have the diner scene that also reveals that Cher is a virgin.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Which is this first sort of moment of like Cher is presenting herself as so much more worldly than she is. Yes. She is playing high status with Tai, who has done a lot more than she has.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Ty is a morally girl in. In some ways.

[David Sims]

Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

Um, and that's when Christian enters the. The scene as a transfer. Right. Like we actually get the info right at the start. The buzz on Christian is that he's doing one semester in Chicago, one semester here. She says that.

[David Sims]

And he's a bit of a Baldwin.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. What do we think of Christian? Kind of the one cast member that did not have much of a career. Justin Walker.

[David Sims]

Yeah. And I think he's.

[Griffin Newman]

He's so funny. In this movie. But he's like got barely any credits on. Otherwise I don't know what the deal is. It's such a good bit. And of course Cher loves him. He's perfect for her because he's kind of non threatening and he's so put together and kind of got this classy.

[David Sims]

The stages of it are just so funny. From here's. She's saving herself for Luke Perry. Right? Is the joke. And then this guy comes in and he does have this sort of Luke Perry vibe.

[Heidi Gardner]

But see, he's the one that doesn't track for me in the movie. He doesn't have the Luke Perry vibe. He has the Jason Priestley vibe and also looks like a brother of Jason Priestley. And I just could never figure out. I'm like, why is sheer into him necessarily? Like he.

[Griffin Newman]

There was just because he dresses well. I really think it's that good. No, go ahead.

[Heidi Gardner]

It's almost too much. He's got the Chandler Bing shirts and like it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. He's like got his swingers up for me. But I think she, she, she's doesn't want to have sex with somebody, so she kind of likes that he's kind of sexually not friends.

[David Sims]

Luke Perry. It would be shorter, intimidating for her in real life. And gonna have Jason Priestley's the, the safer version of it.

[Griffin Newman]

He's someone she can ask him, what do you think of Amber? And he can go Hagsville, like looking down his glasses like that's. That's the kind of chat she likes to have.

[David Sims]

Well, it's why the transposing of Jane Austen onto high school makes so much sense.

[Griffin Newman]

Because that character is completely different in the book. Because his whole thing in the book is that a secret fiance that he can't reveal, they just dump that because that they didn't know how to transpose.

[David Sims]

The point is, why isn't she interested? Why isn't he interested in her? Why doesn't he want to be with her? I'm just saying more globally. The idea of taking that era of novel and transposing into high school culture is like that is the one modern place where this sense of like who belongs together feels like so overwhelming. Where I think, as you said, like Cher doesn't actually want to be in a relationship. She's scared of sex. She's scared of intimacy. Right. She's scared of like having to be vulnerable with anyone else. Having to like share power with anyone else. So her thing with Christian is just like on paper this seems like the right kind of guy for me to date. And I think Heckerling does a good throttling of, like, in every scene. His weird Rat Packy affectation is heightened.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's not as apparent the first time you see him, and then it's slowly creeping in. Like, on paper, this seems like a Jason Priestley runoff. And then you're like, he's got this weird 50s, like, swing cat thing. And then you realize he's gay. You're sort of peeling him back.

[Griffin Newman]

I think you think the death of Sammy J. Davis Jr. Left an opening in your Rat pack is another joke my mom had to explain to me when I was 10. But is so funny.

[David Sims]

So funny.

[Griffin Newman]

I got a.45 and a shovel. I doubt anyone would miss you. It's. It's the right level of, like, he is scary, but you're also, like, this is sweet. Like, you know.

[David Sims]

Do you drink? No, I'm good.

[Griffin Newman]

I wasn't asking if you drink.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Him telling her to put something over the dress, and she puts, like, the thinnest see through, like, like kind of camisole or whatever. It's so funny.

[David Sims]

But that's part of why she's attracted him. It's like her. Her not understanding. Understanding what she would want in a relationship.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

At this stage is her just being, like, a guy who compliments all my outfits.

[Heidi Gardner]

Totally.

[David Sims]

What do you mean?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

A guy who every day goes like, what did you do to your hair? That's amazing.

[Griffin Newman]

Her joke of he dresses better than me. I don't know what I would bring to the relationship.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But he's very sweet at the. At the ska show.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know.

[David Sims]

I. There's an interesting thing too, of, like, in that diner scene right before Christian enters where, like, Cher is sharing the story of Alton in the car and, like, making it about herself. But also it's like she's delivering this bad news to Ty, which is like, he's not interested in you. He's been interested in me the whole time. He's making. You know, he made a pass that failed, and now we're, like, shutting this guy out.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And Tai is getting so emotionally worked up about a guy they basically talked her into liking.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

That Cher's, like, persuasiveness has kind of completely warped her brain.

[Heidi Gardner]

I love that scene. Then later where Ty is, like, they're burning the elton box of stuff. She, like, kept, like, the towel from when he helped her at the party and stuff. And I, I. So I. The amount of I saved from guys that like definitely didn't like me or paid me no mind or, or play bills of like, you know, just like this was important. It was so. I love that scene.

[David Sims]

It's another a dialogue exchange. I love is he's too good for you. If he's too good for me, then why am I not with him?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Which I would like hate when people said that to me.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You know, when I was like 15, had some crush on somebody and they were like, she's. You're too good for her anyway.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And I'm like that doesn't make me feel right.

[Griffin Newman]

That doesn't help this, this situation. I mean the scene later where she goes to her dad to say like I like this boy and he doesn't like me back and he's just like, well then he's just stupid is so sweet. And again it's just getting the right, like the right mix of aggression and kind of like, you know, good heartedness from him. Right. Where he's kind of bucking her up in the right way. Being like you have a work ethic. You, you, you care about people. Like it's not, you're not just an airhead. Like. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know. It's just nice.

[David Sims]

Yes. But even just like right. Her whole. I mean because right before Christian's introduced you have, have the, the all the young dudes thing of her explaining why she's so disappointed by the boys of her generation. Right. Like why can't they put in an effort?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Christian is all effort.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes. Yeah.

[David Sims]

That is the main thing I think she's attracted to.

[Heidi Gardner]

Totally.

[Griffin Newman]

Who would you most. Travis is the answer of who would you most want to like hang out with. Well, I would for me it's Cher. But like Travis is probably the easiest.

[David Sims]

Travis and Murray. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Murray's probably a pretty good hanging. Yeah. Yeah. Christian definitely just. Yeah. My, my make my teeth hurt a little bit at a certain point.

[Heidi Gardner]

For sure.

[Ben Hosley]

Christian saves Tai at the mall.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

Which is actually. It's played up that like she's talking.

[Griffin Newman]

Later being over the top about it.

[Ben Hosley]

About it's a near death experience. But it's really scary like the stakes of it and like that these guys are being so reckless.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

It's fun up.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes. I'm not trying to apologize for them, but she also should have never sat on them. There is so scary just in general.

[Ben Hosley]

Cuz that's slippery that like the handrailing. It's like a metal.

[Heidi Gardner]

It's scary from the second she's just talking to Them I'm worried back support.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

In the book she faints cuz she has like an encounter with local like travelers. Like, it's completely different. I shouldn't even bring it up.

[David Sims]

That's.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, it's the early 19th century.

[Heidi Gardner]

They also knew like such the way to. Because that. Yeah. If she's talking about near death experience and we're all agreeing that it is scary, but also they didn't. They still kept it in kind of a light, bubbly, clueless world, you know? Cause you're kind of like, what was that? You know, we're adults now, so we're talking about it and saying it's scary. But I have to imagine in the movie theater, I wasn't like, you know, like, I. I knew she was gonna be okay. Like. Yeah.

[David Sims]

And the immediate joke is how quickly, like through the game of telephone, the story gets heightened.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes. Yes.

[David Sims]

It's crazy proportions.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. But it does elevate Ty in a way that's sort of out of Cher's control.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And this does unbalance her. And rather than turning her into a villain, I feel like causes her to look inward. And what she finds inside of her is that she likes to have help people. And she's like, I guess I'll help with the Pismo beach disaster. Right? I'll like help.

[Heidi Gardner]

You know, like, was that made up?

[Griffin Newman]

It's made up. Okay, now Pismo beach is real.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes. I'm busy.

[Griffin Newman]

My wife had the same question. She was like, what's the Pismo beach disaster? And I'm like, I don't know. Let me go. But it is just made up. But imagine all of your belongings. You know, the way Twin Caplan sells it. You know, your memory's gone in a second.

[David Sims]

The separate boxes for appetizers and entrees.

[Griffin Newman]

Daddy, you didn't like that red caviar.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[David Sims]

But that's an example of what I'm talking about where it's just like, that is not a setup punchline joke. That is a joke based on that character being so well established and she's earned it. Right.

[Heidi Gardner]

But it's ridiculous.

[David Sims]

But with such good intentions. She just doesn't think about like, what do you mean? That's not important to separate it into courses.

[Ben Hosley]

What is her.

[David Sims]

These are people who don't have food.

[Ben Hosley]

What is her line of. About the.

[Griffin Newman]

The skis? I. I can get you the exact line, probably. But Daddy, some people lost all their belongings. Don't you think that includes athletic equipment? Right, Right.

[David Sims]

It's coming from such a good place.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Isn't everyone? Like, she's a little clueless as the title. And like, she has her moments. Like when she's watching the news and she's like, I thought they declared peace in the Middle East. Which is, I'm like, that's the right kind of dumb girl joke where it's like, why would she need to know about, like, the Balkan Crisis? She's only 16 years old. Right. Like, that tracks to me. Like, she's never so silly. No.

[David Sims]

And the Polonius moment is like, I, I remember what Mel Gibson says and he didn't say that. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And it's like, okay, she knows Hamlet because she has a crush on Mel Gibson. But also she was paying attention.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

She listened and she remembers the lines.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, she, exactly. She's not getting lost in Mel Gibson's eyes or whatever.

[Ben Hosley]

Griffin. David.

[Griffin Newman]

What?

[Ben Hosley]

I have news.

[David Sims]

Ben. What's the news?

[Ben Hosley]

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[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

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[Griffin Newman]

You've been using it for pig?

[Ben Hosley]

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[Griffin Newman]

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[Ben Hosley]

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[David Sims]

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[Ben Hosley]

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[David Sims]

It's easy.

[Ben Hosley]

I don't even have to think about it.

[David Sims]

Ben, I didn't want to bring it up, but pig's been looking real pretty lately.

[Ben Hosley]

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[David Sims]

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[Griffin Newman]

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[Ben Hosley]

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[Griffin Newman]

I like that she realizes that she likes Josh. The fountain lights up behind her and doesn't go right after him. Instead, does the Pismo Beach. Like, starts to just sort of do shit that are. That is nice.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's not until Josh defends her with mean suspenders. Point boy. So mean.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That they find they have their moment. And she gets Josh to sort of like, you know, whatever, admit that they.

[David Sims]

Like you and yourself is above Josh. Because Joss is like an unfun dork in her mind. Right. Like, he's like the buzzkill who wants to be a grown up. And she doesn't get it. And the moment she has that realization, she's just like, I don't even know what type of woman he wants to be with.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[David Sims]

But I imagine it isn't me. And I like that she doesn't do this complete pretending to be a different person. But you notice the next couple scenes, she starts dressing.

[Heidi Gardner]

Oh, yeah. She's way low key.

[David Sims]

She's still Cher.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But it's like all more toned down.

[Heidi Gardner]

A cardigan, like.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

Just a T shirt and jeans.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. She's a little. A little less loud or whatever. And everyone kind of starts seeing, like, Travis whatever focuses up on his skateboarding Dion.

[David Sims]

And he goes to weed rehab.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Little. Little on the nose.

[Heidi Gardner]

A little.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Reefer madness.

[Griffin Newman]

He went to 12 steps for.

[Heidi Gardner]

I know. That was the thing. I was like, the rewatch. I'm like, oh, you really. Oh, okay. He's. He's in real.

[Griffin Newman]

He's.

[Heidi Gardner]

He's in the park.

[Griffin Newman]

He smoked a lot of weed. I don't know.

[Heidi Gardner]

He seemed pretty functional. Maybe it was too much. I mean. Yeah.

[David Sims]

The 2025 version of that joke would be like, he's giving up nine of his bongs and only keeping one because he doesn't want to be stoned all the time. And this movie has to frame it as, like, he has signed up for, like, weed anonymous.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And it's like, fully weaned himself off the devil's lettuce.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. He's only sober in one. Like, he would be, like, doing mushroom chocolate, but not like.

[David Sims]

Yeah, this movie has a little bit still of the 90s. Like, is weed the innate sign of an unserious person?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Dion and Murray, like, get closer, have sex, seem to mature a little bit.

[David Sims]

Because of the freeway sequence, which is perfect. This is a perfect representation of why I don't drive. Like, I watch this sequence in the movie and I'm like, this is what I Imagine it would feel like all the time.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

The first time you drive on a highway is scary.

[David Sims]

I would feel like share and I'd be crashing into people's fucking rearview mirrors. And I end up on the freeway and suddenly everything's moving really fast. I can't get off.

[Heidi Gardner]

Was that a major stunt? Because this semi is terrifying. It actually looks very close to them.

[Griffin Newman]

They do a great job like, exactly. Making it feel very high pressure.

[David Sims]

What's the funny part of them having Bill Pope shoot this is. You're like, this is the scene that's his bailiwick, basically.

[Griffin Newman]

I think there's just a good joke to how like tiny their world is that they really wouldn't be getting on the freeway much by themselves. They don't need to. Right? Like. And God, I guess, yeah. The first I. I was part. Maybe it's this movie's fault. I was scared to like merge on, like when I'm learning how to drive.

[David Sims]

I was like, how does anyone do this?

[Griffin Newman]

You have to go really fast, really quickly and then just kind of get in there.

[Ben Hosley]

It's scary to drive, drive on those freeways in LA too. The first time, it's so intense.

[Griffin Newman]

The first time I drove in la, I had to like make a left off of like Sepulveda or some big ass road. And I'm like, ah, okay, I'll just. Where's my turning lane? And then it's like, no, you just kind of have to turn left across like eight lanes of traffic. Yeah, that's just kind of what we do here.

[David Sims]

Nightmare.

[Griffin Newman]

And I asked like an LA person, I was like, is that. Did I fuck up? Did I do. And they were like, no, that's just, that's just driving in LA. It is scary.

[Heidi Gardner]

I drove there for 10 years and I won't now.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm too scared now you're like, I'm getting a new. I don't want to do it.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, I'll drive in Kansas City and I would even drive here. It's. I'm very scared of it. I did it like four years ago and when I got on the highway, I felt the way they felt. Clueless. I was like, this is coming at me so fast.

[Griffin Newman]

They're very large and they do go. I love. See, I love it. I. I was so nervous about it and then I was just like, oh, no, it's fine. Like merging is not scary to me.

[Heidi Gardner]

I hope I get back to that.

[Ben Hosley]

It's more scary driving on the other side of the road.

[Griffin Newman]

Did you do that?

[Ben Hosley]

Well, I Just went to St. Croix recently.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, that's right.

[Ben Hosley]

So they have American style cars.

[David Sims]

You might notice that Ben's still on island time.

[Ben Hosley]

Y. Yeah, I know. The beads are starting to come out, but you have to drive on the other side of the road. So it's really weird. Cuz the driver is then on the shoulder side.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. That's up. Yeah. And it. I imagine just turning is just.

[Ben Hosley]

So then like, making a right turn is like, you're. It just.

[Griffin Newman]

It's.

[Ben Hosley]

I couldn't rewire my brain in the moment. It was just so weird. It was.

[Griffin Newman]

It was.

[Ben Hosley]

I had a few moments where I just was really, like, pretty terrible. Terrified. Driving around.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't drive around.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Join my side. Never drive around.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I mean, I love. I actually love driving, which is weird of me, considering what an anxious person I am about travel.

[David Sims]

But that ends with Murray consoling.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Which thing is like, after that day, her virginity stopped being technical. Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

Her, like, lace, I guess, hat that she wears in the highway scene. Dion.

[Heidi Gardner]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's so good. I know now.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

It's like a doily beret. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, totally.

[David Sims]

But that's like a realization moment for her too. I mean, I think it's later where Cher says the thing about, like, recognizing the good and everyone she knows or the things, you know, she likes about them and says, like, how sweet they are when no one else is watching, that there's this awareness that their relationship seems to be based in fighting. But it's kind of a like, comedic, exhilarating fighting.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

That they don't actually mean.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

As much as that's sort of their weird level language. And then she's like, if no one's watching, they're just really gentle with each other.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Which I love.

[Heidi Gardner]

And.

[David Sims]

And she witnesses that for the first time because, like, the fear of the life and death stakes of being on the freeway has caused the defenses to go down. Which I think in that moment makes her realize, like, this is an actual relation.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't have this with anybody.

[David Sims]

It's not a guy just saying, you look fantastic.

[Griffin Newman]

And obviously the person she's most vulnerable and closest to is Josh, who she will lounge around in her PJ Js and, like, watch Ren and Stimpy with him and all that. And like, that's. That's the. She just needs to realize it. And she does realize it. And they make out and they go to the wedding of the teachers together. And then the movie ends in the.

[David Sims]

When there's the.

[Griffin Newman]

And you're so happy when there's nothing else.

[David Sims]

I can't believe you just speed ran through it that much. Your favorite movie.

[Griffin Newman]

What am I missing?

[David Sims]

The thing I was going to say is at the wedding, when there's the bouquet throw.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Amy Heckerling is one of the brides. Bridesmaids.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, sure. Okay.

[David Sims]

And she framed herself out because she. They were like. She's really shy. She doesn't like being on camera. But we thought it was funny. She's in one of the dresses, she's basically cut out of the frame. But then in the bouquet throw, she thought they were all being too civil and was trying to encourage them to be rowdier and more competitive in it and they couldn't do it. So she just started throwing elbows and pushing them.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yeah, I see her.

[David Sims]

And if you watch the scene, her head. Head is down. She's clearly trying to not be seen on camera. But all the chaos is being instigated by her. In the middle of it, there is.

[Heidi Gardner]

Someone that it looks like Alicia Silverstone falls directly on. Like, it looks like someone might be her. Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Did you guys ever watch the TV show, the sitcom Clueless? Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Existed for, I want to say, what, like four or five years? Like, it was like three years. Okay.

[David Sims]

And like 60% of the cast carried over.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Although not the two stars, but we did have Stacey Dash, Donal Finch, and Eliza. Or Elisa. I'm not sure. Donovan.

[David Sims]

But then also.

[Griffin Newman]

And Twink is in the first season.

[David Sims]

Twink. And Wallace Shawn was in the first season as well.

[Griffin Newman]

And Wallace Shawn was in the first season. But Michael Lerner plays the dad. Kind of a different vibe.

[David Sims]

Yeah, but it. But a similarly established serious actor.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

A different Coen brothers all star.

[Griffin Newman]

And then the guy, David Lasher, who plays Josh, gets written out after season one. After season one, it went to UPN and it became a different show.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Josh was on of a character and Ty was not much of a character. Right. Yeah, yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

It didn't ever. I watched it, but it didn't ever hit for me. It just.

[Griffin Newman]

No, it's not very good.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I was watching last night some of the Fast Time sitcom, which is all up on YouTube because I'd been like, who needs to fucking watch this? And then I found out she wrote and directed half of the episodes. So I was a little curious about how that translation was. And it's very strange because it's her trying to do Fast Times on network television. Television in 1986, I imagine. It doesn't work and so it feels like this is like freaks and geeks 15 years ahead of its time, where it's like, she couldn't make it as, like, edgy and complicated as she wanted to. It got canceled, was seen as a failure. And I was like, oh, I wonder what failure was. What the scale was in 1986. The last episode got 10 million viewers. And they were like, well, this is unacceptable.

[Heidi Gardner]

Gone insane.

[David Sims]

10 million.

[Heidi Gardner]

10 million.

[David Sims]

It's the 72nd get it off the show on network television. But, like, that's Courtney Thorne Smith is the Jennifer Jason Lee part. And Claudia Wells, who's the original Jennifer in the first Back to the Future is Phoebe Cates.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Like, it has good actors on it, but it all feels very superficial.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[David Sims]

And even if the Clueless show wasn't as good, I think Clueless was a tone that was easier to translate to tv.

[Heidi Gardner]

Totally.

[David Sims]

Whereas fast times, like, you're taking the cursing and the drugs and the sex out, it all feels a little strange. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Are there any other lines from Clueless I haven't shouted out? Heidi, Is there anything else we haven't touched on? You know, it's a big movie.

[Heidi Gardner]

Clueless.

[Griffin Newman]

Isn'T my house. Totally classic. The columns tape all the way back to 1972. That's a good.

[Heidi Gardner]

Her Jeep is awesome.

[Griffin Newman]

Her Jeep is so good.

[Heidi Gardner]

That's so good.

[Griffin Newman]

Such a great car for someone who doesn't know how to drive to own as well.

[Heidi Gardner]

And it's like. It's not the odd. Like, I don't know, you'd think convertible, but. But it's like. No, the cool girl would have the white sheet.

[David Sims]

Like, it's like a Barbie power wheel.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Sims]

That's what I like about it. It's a child's idea of a cool car. Right. Versus convertible would actually be cool.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. I was just having a snack at my girlfriend's. Where? In Kuwait. The way that he yells at Ty, get out of my chair when she's sitting in his chair. Anything else, guys? Guys? No. Yes. No. Before we do the box office game, I'm.

[David Sims]

I'm scrubbing through.

[Griffin Newman]

I totally PA an iconic line.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

I mean, I guess Kai and Josh kind of have this tension a little bit.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's mostly in her head, though. Like, I mean. Or. I mean, Tai obviously has a crush on Josh, but I feel like Josh is never actually aware that Tai is.

[Ben Hosley]

He's just being a good.

[Griffin Newman]

Nice.

[David Sims]

Right? Oh, really?

[Griffin Newman]

He's just a good, good fella.

[David Sims]

I do like that the sign that Travis has Like, gotten his act together and become a serious enough person that Ty can date him is that he's now professionally skateboarding.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right. And it's like he's given up his bongs, and now he's doing it within, like, a competitive structure. It's also funny that they have, like, an espresso stand there, and Cher has, like, a tiny little paper Starbucks cup, which you're like, oh, in 1995, that must have been a Starbucks equivalent to them all having cell phones of, like. Look at how mature and hip these kids are.

[Heidi Gardner]

Totally.

[David Sims]

They drink Starbucks.

[Griffin Newman]

I like that. Right. He says he can't drink coffee. Christian. Because of his ulcer. And she's like, what about those cappuccinos? That was just foam. Yeah, that line's really funny.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Obviously, Christian's obsession with Tony Curtis is very funny.

[Ben Hosley]

I never got to have a pager.

[Griffin Newman]

I had a pager. I had a pager.

[Ben Hosley]

Really?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. My mom got me a pager after 9. 9 11. Or was it before? It was. It was. I think it was after 9. 11. Because before I was gonna. She wouldn't get me a cell phone.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So she got me a pager.

[Heidi Gardner]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

And we used it, like, twice. Right. It would have you. You could call a number and read a message, and it would. I would get sent, like, a text message that would, like, scroll on the pager.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And that was ostensibly the point. Right. Was like, for an emergency, she could, like, give me a message. I never. Never used it. It was so stupid. But it would tell me the news and soccer scores.

[Ben Hosley]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

So they would just, like, come up on the pager.

[Ben Hosley]

It's just one of those pieces of technology that you see it in movies. It comes up, and it's something I'm like. I'm like, kind of almost like I wish.

[David Sims]

Bring it back.

[Ben Hosley]

Jealous. Like, I wish I had had that moment in time to have that piece of.

[David Sims]

It's like the 30 Rock Beeper King thing. Technology is cyclical. It's coming back around. Maybe you can make the beeper happen again.

[Ben Hosley]

Oh, yeah. There could be improvements, and there's maybe a way of, like. There's the cell phones that only do certain things.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Ben Hosley]

I don't remember the name. Dumb phones.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Hosley]

There's, like, maybe some version where it's like, you can still text message with people, but it's just more involved.

[David Sims]

Ben, I think you have to go in the opposite direction. What? People who are going towards the smartphone or the dumb phone. Why not sell them a smart beeper instead?

[Ben Hosley]

Okay.

[David Sims]

They don't want the super complicated smartphone in their life that's sucking up all their attention. They want to downsize, but rather making a dumber phone. Why not make a smarter beeper?

[Heidi Gardner]

It just tells you, like, this is how many emails you've gotten in the last three hours and texts that makes you realize, like, oh, I gotta get back to my phone.

[David Sims]

Right. I gotta get back to it, or.

[Heidi Gardner]

I don't gotta get back to my phone. Sometimes where you're in a movie and you're like, I'm gonna get out of this movie and I'm gonna have 67 texts and 100 emails, and you have zero, and you're like, oh, wow, worst.

[David Sims]

Day of my life.

[Heidi Gardner]

Or it feels like the best day.

[David Sims]

Well, yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

And you're like, and I'm not as popular as I thought.

[David Sims]

I truly. There are few feelings I love more than waking up and going, oh, my God, no new texts. Yeah, I got nothing to catch up with texts.

[Griffin Newman]

You stress me out.

[David Sims]

They starts fresh.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep, I'm in too many group chats.

[David Sims]

Okay, let's start a couple more.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, let's do it. Clueless came out July 21, 1995, made 55 million, $56 million.

[David Sims]

Open its hat. So it had a.

[Griffin Newman]

Had, like, tripled its bud. It was a solid hit, but it also had major longevity. It was a VHS classic or buying cable classic, obviously.

[David Sims]

I mean, the sitcom is on the air.

[Griffin Newman]

A year later, there was the spinoff sitcom, which Heckerling worked on the first six episodes and then was like, okay, I don't need to do this, but this is the last successful movie that she makes. And, like, Loser is a big theatrical movie that kind of made some money, I guess.

[David Sims]

And then that's kind of definitely seen as a disappointment, but it's a disappointment. And then last two movies, she has very openly talked about having to claw to get a very meager budget, not being able to make films on the scale that she wants to. Both of those films we will talk about shortly, but I think the public sort of line on both of them is like, it's a little depressing to see her not be given the tools that she used to have.

[Griffin Newman]

There is the Clueless musical, which is.

[David Sims]

About to open in the West End.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. It was playing music from Katie Tunstall. When Heckerling is making this movie, she's like, this is should be a musical.

[David Sims]

People should start singing like, I think it was it. It ran very briefly off Broadway at the beginning of 2020, I want to say, with Dove Cameron playing Cher. And there was a really good New York Times interview or piece profile on Amy Heckerling, talking about, like, the lasting influence of Cher in her life and this whole arc of starting a script, thinking she was mocking this character, and then coming to really respect someone who could be that positive.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[David Sims]

And be that happy and everything. And so, yeah, she was hoping it was going to transfer to Broadway. The pandemic happened. The thing sat on ice for a couple years, and now it's finally about to open on the West End. And she's very involved in it.

[Heidi Gardner]

A number with shopping bags.

[David Sims]

I'm sure there's several.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. And for me, I'm. And this is for me, I call a Fatal Flaw. I do not care for musicals. And I'm so glad it was never a musical or it is one. But I'm like, it's already such a heightened world. If they would have broke out in songs and the mall, I would have been like, no.

[David Sims]

Are there any musicals you like?

[Heidi Gardner]

I like Pippen a lot.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Heidi Gardner]

And I think I like God Spell. I like the music in it, and I like Fandom of the opera, just because it was a big deal when I was a kid, and I like that song.

[Griffin Newman]

I think we could win you over. This. This is suggesting to me that there's.

[David Sims]

There's music, there's room to play here. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

If you like Godspell, you like Pippin, I don't know. Those are very musically, musicals in a lot of ways. All right, Griff. Box office game. This opens number two.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

At the box office. So what's number one? It's a big hit of the summer. I saw it with my whole family. You might have been too young, but maybe you did, too.

[David Sims]

It's a family hit. Or was it just a massive hit?

[Griffin Newman]

It's a true story film.

[David Sims]

Apollo 13. There you go.

[Griffin Newman]

I was like, I don't need to say space movie. He'll get it.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Apollo 13, a great film, basically always hits.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I definitely watched that on 13. Yeah. Right. Yes, I do, because. Right. This is June 1995 or July 1995. I don't care about Tom Hanks yet. And then Thanksgiving, Toy Story is going to come out. So by early 96, I'm like, well, Tom Hanks is obviously my favorite actor.

[Heidi Gardner]

So 94 was Forrest Gump. Right. You didn't care about him.

[David Sims]

Right. So then by 96, I'm going through the Tom Hanks VHS collection because I got to fill in knowing what Woody's face looks like. Looks like yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Third is a rom com that's a bit of a flop that is better known for the sort of. Well, it's actually. It kind of made money, but it's better known for what's going on around the movie.

[David Sims]

Was there a real life coupling?

[Griffin Newman]

A real life scandal?

[David Sims]

A real life scandal. Was there an affair?

[Heidi Gardner]

Oh, was it. Wait, okay, wait.

[Griffin Newman]

I can't see the actor. It's Nine months.

[David Sims]

It's nine months.

[Griffin Newman]

Hugh Grant in Nine Months. A movie where I feel like no one even remembers what the plot is, but everyone remembers that he got a blowjob on this trip. Like, and that was. That was what the movie was about.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Have you seen Nine Months?

[David Sims]

I've still never seen it.

[Griffin Newman]

Chris Columbus is Nine Months written and directed by Chris Columbus.

[David Sims]

Yes. And Chris Columbus is content. We've said this many times on the show, Heidi, but Chris Columbus's contention is that it got like, the highest test screening scores in the history of Fox. And everyone's like, lighting cigars and saying, like, this is going to be bigger than. Than Mrs. Doubtfire, which he was just coming off of.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[David Sims]

And he was like, if Hugh hadn't gotten that blowjob, it would have been my highest grossing film. And I'm like, I think there is no universe. You look at the cultural tale of that movie, which is non existent. People don't remember which movie he was promoting when he got the blowjob.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[David Sims]

Which movie he went on Leno to talk about the blowjob.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, Right. That's not really out there.

[Griffin Newman]

The premise is just, he gets someone pregnant. Julianne Moore.

[David Sims]

I remember my parents coming home from date night, seeing nine months and being like, Robin Williams. Williams is funny. And I was like, oh, it's a Robin Williams movie. And they're like, he's in like 10 minutes.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

He's uncredited.

[Griffin Newman]

Number four.

[Heidi Gardner]

It was a two and a half. I'm sure Robert Butler gave it a two and a half classic.

[David Sims]

Two and a half?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Number four at the box office. And I'm gonna find out what Robert gave. It is a Ben favorite, an action film, a sequel. We've covered it on.

[David Sims]

Is it Understage two, Dark Territory, Under Siege two.

[Griffin Newman]

Dark Territory.

[Ben Hosley]

Great movie.

[David Sims]

Which a listener very kindly sent us on laserdisc. We now have on laserdisc. Great. Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

Cool.

[David Sims]

So you can see that beautiful square. Have you ever seen the movie?

[Griffin Newman]

You don't seem that excited.

[Heidi Gardner]

No, I do.

[Griffin Newman]

What's the matter?

[Heidi Gardner]

Like, cool, that's cool. Yes, I have seen that.

[Griffin Newman]

Looks like Robert Butler skipped Reviewing nine months. At least his review has not been uploaded to the Internet.

[David Sims]

What about Under S2?

[Heidi Gardner]

Oh, yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

It's basically just a big CD.

[Heidi Gardner]

I bet Under Siege 2 got a one.

[David Sims]

That's a one. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

It sounds like he was a really cl. Like, for the time. Like, he liked. Classy.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, he was a skull. And Ebert for sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Number five at the box office. We were just talking about it on one of our many text threads. Griffin.

[David Sims]

We were just talking about on one of our many sexy horror films. Is it Species?

[Griffin Newman]

Species. What if an alien. What if Alien but with boobs.

[David Sims]

We have a really, really cool group text called News and Deals that ostensibly is a talk about announcements and sales on physical. Physical media.

[Heidi Gardner]

Okay.

[David Sims]

But ends up being a wide rating conversation. And we just honed in on Species being a formative first time I saw Boobs movie for many people in the threat.

[Griffin Newman]

Have you seen Species?

[Heidi Gardner]

I have. Totally. I. I saw that with my brother Justin. I'm sure that was one where, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Justin's like, we have to go. But that movie is violent.

[Heidi Gardner]

It's really good.

[Griffin Newman]

It is good.

[Heidi Gardner]

I like that.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a very fun.

[David Sims]

We were saying.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Astonishing. It hasn't been rewritten.

[Griffin Newman]

Heidi, Incredible work saying Natasha Henstridge's amazing last name, where you're always like, oh, it's Natasha Hentridge or Henstridge. Henstridge. It's just this beautiful word. I love looking at it.

[David Sims]

Henstridge.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Love, Love her.

[David Sims]

Sim said. I can't believe Sydney Sweeney has not already bought the rights to Species.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Some, like, young star needs to be like, I'm rebooting Species. It's of kind coming back.

[David Sims]

Species legacy.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, whatever.

[David Sims]

Henstridge makes one appearance at the end.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

No. So that's the top five we've also got opening at number six, Free Willy 2, the Adventure Home. Sort of unnecessary sequel. He already necessary Curry was freed.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he hasn't gotten home yet.

[Griffin Newman]

I guess I remember even as a kid being like, I think we've told the Free Willies, like, what I would see in theater. So I was like, no.

[David Sims]

What I was digging into the other day, unsurprisingly, Free Willy the Animated Series, where they were like, we got to raise the stakes on this. So in Free Willy the Animated Series, there is like a League of Captain Planet esque villains. There's like cyborg men who are like, I hate the ocean.

[Heidi Gardner]

Free will.

[David Sims]

They must be captured. And this boy is still just like, Willie Jump. But you got these guys with like, drill submarines and Lasers trying to attack Willy. And you're like, the movie's just about a kid trying to get a big fish.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I hate Willie.

[Griffin Newman]

Number seven is Pocahontas.

[David Sims]

Uhhuh.

[Griffin Newman]

Which I've rewatched with my daughter. It still just does not hit for me.

[David Sims]

Look, I understand it is a deeply problematic movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not just as problematic. It's very, like, slow and stingy. The songs are nice.

[Heidi Gardner]

I like the songs.

[Griffin Newman]

And it looks nice.

[David Sims]

Just around the Riverben.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, no, it's a good looking web.

[David Sims]

Could I marry Koko?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, but this is the thing. It doesn't have a lot of, you know, like, juice.

[David Sims]

Doesn't have juice. What about Coco, who's. Yeah, she's supposed to marry.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Should she? It's like, no one's really that fun. I don't know.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Oh, so wait, the raccoon flit and Miko aren't getting a rise out of you?

[Griffin Newman]

My daughter Percy, the puppet with Tarzan.

[David Sims]

Well, that one I don't get.

[Griffin Newman]

It's so weird.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Anyway, Those very serious late 90s Disney.

[David Sims]

What's your Disney Disney renaissance feeling overall, Heidi?

[Heidi Gardner]

Oh, definitely. Yeah. That era.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

I mean, Robin Hood's my favorite, but definitely. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Robin Hood and Jungle Book are my two.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure, sure.

[Heidi Gardner]

Robin Hood and Beauty and the Beast are my two. But the Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast were just magical.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Heidi Gardner]

And then I just. I tapered off around the Tarzan. Pocahontas.

[Griffin Newman]

You're getting too old for it.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So my daughter's obsessed with Little Mermaid right now. She will will not allow the scene where Ursula gets big to be shown to her, though.

[David Sims]

Interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, she saw that once and was like, like truly like, classic.

[David Sims]

But she tends to like villains. Right. She loves cruelty.

[Griffin Newman]

She's obsessed with Ursula as kill.

[David Sims]

Because as long as she maintains a.

[Griffin Newman]

Normal size, her getting big is scary. It is scary, but she gets way too big. And then they run her through with a ship.

[David Sims]

But she's not scared by Vanessa, which is Vanessa. Vanessa is when Ursula becomes.

[Griffin Newman]

No, she loves that because what's she doing? And I think she's learning. Like, trickery is like, you know, being introduced to her. Like she's tricking her. Him, Eric, whatever. Indian in the covered Number eight.

[David Sims]

A banger.

[Griffin Newman]

Pretty good movie.

[David Sims]

A movie that had that VHS we will cover on this podcast someday.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, will we?

[David Sims]

It's directed by. I don't remember, Frank Oz.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, sure, yeah. First night. The serious King Arthur movie with Richard Gere and Connery by David Zucker. Directed by David one of the zuckers. And number 10, the great Batman Forever. Rip to Val Kilmer.

[Heidi Gardner]

That was 10.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, it's been out for two months at this point. It's made a hell.

[David Sims]

It was like the big Memorial Day movie. Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

And no mad love.

[David Sims]

No mad Where.

[Griffin Newman]

Where he dropped, like, mad love. Mad love is not even on the chart, so it probably left theaters within weeks.

[Heidi Gardner]

Can I tell you a formative thing that summer that was a Batman for everything. Okay. So I would always see movies with Justin. My mom was like, you guys go together. Heidi's your younger sister.

[David Sims]

I'm nine years older than my sister. So I had a very similar dynamic where I was the Justin.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes. And you're the responsible one and all this stuff. So I had seen Batman Forever the weekend that it opened with my best friend Ashley and her dad. Justin wanted to see it either that next week or that Sunday at work. And I was just like, I've already seen it. And he's like, well, I guess you could see something else. We could split off. And so I went and saw Waterworld. He saw Batman Forever.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Heidi Gardner]

We both agreed we weren't telling mom, you know, and then I let it slip that I went and saw. Or we both were just talking about two different movies, and she figured out. She's like, wait a second. You were in Batman Forever while you're sitting sister was in Waterworld? What the hell? And she got so mad at me, and she said, do you know that you could have been sitting in that movie and someone could have come over to you with a needle and injected you with something, and then we would have never seen you again.

[David Sims]

What?

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes. Like, it was obviously a news story of the time.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. I do assure a panic.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

So Romley, my little sister, would watch SNL with us with my brother and I, even when she was young and liked snow. And I guess she was probably 11 maybe, when the MacGruber movie came out. And I remember I was, like, supposed to pick her from school and take her to see something, and there was probably some kid movie or teen movie that was like, what we assumed we were gonna see.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And I sort of said to her, I was like, this is my moment to be the cool brother. I think she's old enough. Where I was like, you know, Romley, if you wanted to, we could see. Love it, but you can't tell our parents. Yeah, I'll do this if you're cool about it. Cause I was like, it's cool that she likes comedy. I was like, she may be on the path to becoming a comedy nerd. She was not, but she was interested in seeing it. And I took her to see MacGruber and, like, had this kind of electrifying, like, watching her at 11 be like, oh, my God, I can't believe I get to see these jokes.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Sort of the inverse of my experience with my dad taking me to see something about Mary, which my mom never let him live down. And then like, four days later, this is when I've, like, I'm out of the house. I'm, you know, not living with my parents. My mom calls me in a fury and says, you exposed my daughter to MacGruber. And I said, she told you? And she went. She wouldn't stop singing the theme song during dinner.

[Griffin Newman]

Magrubert.

[David Sims]

And I was like, romilly.

[Heidi Gardner]

Ah, so good.

[David Sims]

How did you give this up? And also, it's on the show. You should have just lied and said, yeah, I know the song from the sketch.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. She was just too excited.

[David Sims]

Blew it.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

Too excited. I get it. Little sister vibes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. That was always gonna happen.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

McGruber, RIP Val Kilmer.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Everything comes back to great guy. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Heidi, thank you for coming on the show.

[David Sims]

Thank you so much.

[Heidi Gardner]

Thank you for having me.

[Griffin Newman]

Really love your name. I'm. I'm glad.

[David Sims]

Is there anything else you want to plug aside from Saturday Night Live Life.

[Heidi Gardner]

Winsteads in Kansas City.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, let's get our asses there.

[Heidi Gardner]

Let's just do Winstead steak burgers. It's been an establishment since I was a kid.

[Griffin Newman]

Looks like the onion rings look pretty good to me.

[Heidi Gardner]

They're great.

[David Sims]

What's your go to order car?

[Heidi Gardner]

Oh, yeah, just the regular limeade, which it has sherbet in it. And then like a single steak burger with the 50 50. And the 5050 is either fries and onion rings. Onion rings and tots. Onion rings and. Or. Or. Or tots and fries.

[Griffin Newman]

I am all about that. Like an onion ring. Something blend is great to me. Cuz like, if I just get onion rings, I kind of feel insane.

[David Sims]

If I just eat, it's always more than I want. If the plate is just that. Tell me about their fry structure.

[Heidi Gardner]

They just have a thin fry.

[David Sims]

I like that.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Well, no, no, no, no.

[Heidi Gardner]

You know what? Winstead's has a steak fry. Winston has a steak fry that you always end up adding kosher salt to. They give you the pack and you sal it up.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's time for the steak fry to make a comeback. I think, you know What? I mean, people aren't giving us steak fries.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. It's my least favorite. I would say bring back a curly fry.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Heidi Gardner]

You know, rare and amazing.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, here, my, here's my thing with curly fries. If they are good, they're so good. If they're like frozen curly fries, which they often are, you know what I mean? They're like the, they're fine. If you can make a proper good curly fry, they're the best.

[Heidi Gardner]

I feel like I've seen the bag of frozen curlies that I'm like, no friend of mine's family ever bought those and neither did we. So I don't. I'm.

[David Sims]

Any onion curly fries? No. But like certain restaurants you'll go to and you're like, these seem frozen. But I'm going to say this and I'm going to stand by the statement.

[Griffin Newman]

Here we go.

[David Sims]

I prefer a frozen curly fry to the world's best steak fry.

[Griffin Newman]

But here, my thing with the steak fries, I'm like, I want to say, see a good one? There's got to be a good one out there. Show me the good one.

[David Sims]

For some reason this continues.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

In our culture, someone must have done this well at some point.

[Heidi Gardner]

The basket weave one is good.

[David Sims]

Oh, like the waffle fries.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

This might. I. I put steak fry. Dead lowest.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, Yeah.

[David Sims]

I like a good crunch even.

[Heidi Gardner]

I put a potato wedge above it.

[David Sims]

Same. I, you know what? Because steak fries. Exactly.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. Also referred to as a jojo fry. Jojo fry. I don't know. At my college it was okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. They are potato wedges, sometimes known as jojo fries.

[David Sims]

Interesting.

[Ben Hosley]

In the Midwest, like, the Times recently did an article where the title is reviled or underappreciated. Edible spoons. America's least popular fry. But some chefs are still devoted to them. So there's people out there doing steak fries and trying to do them well.

[David Sims]

And also more, more importantly, New York Times is still committed to hard hitting journalism. Thank God they're doing the work.

[Griffin Newman]

It looks like the Park Avenue Kitchen does like a fancy steak fry with stuff on it that's cool. I want to see a regular steak fry, like blow my socks off. I don't know if it can happen. What are your favorite fries in New York?

[David Sims]

That's a really good question.

[Heidi Gardner]

Oh, okay. There's. These are just places that SNL does the afterparty. And at the end of an snl, it's good to have fries. So LA Avenue, that's in Saks Fifth Avenue, they have a restaurant. Their fries Are really good. Mermaid oyster bar. Their fries are seasoned with Old Bay.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, that's great.

[Heidi Gardner]

I love that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I love Old Bay. Yeah, that's. That's good. Yeah. Lavenue, I feel like that's the. Again having just read the Lauren book. That's like where Lauren like is always at a corner table or whatever. Right? Like that's where he has the big dinner.

[Heidi Gardner]

Uh huh.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Are people reading the Lauren book at SNL or do they not want to be spot. Like, are they putting like a fake book cover on it?

[Heidi Gardner]

I think a fake book cover. Cover.

[David Sims]

If I worked on the show, I'd be like, I have to read this book. But also I don't want to be the person who's reading the book while I work here.

[Heidi Gardner]

I think it's one of those things that like you would read years later when you're chewing. Like, I haven't seen the Saturday Night movie because I just be like being at work.

[David Sims]

Also, you're a big part in a weird way in the. I'm joking.

[Heidi Gardner]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

It would be funny if everyone in the. In the. The. The Jason Ryman movie is like, you know, one day a girl called Heidi will walk through the these doors.

[David Sims]

We have a recurring bit about how that movie does so much compression of timeline of things that happen in the first five years of the show.

[Heidi Gardner]

Right.

[David Sims]

That were also like at one point they cut to delivery room or Keenan's being born that they want to call dibs on every single thing that happened over 50 years.

[Heidi Gardner]

Love that scene.

[David Sims]

So I'm just imagining like a scene in the movie where your parents go to SNL and they're like, we're thinking someday we'd name our daughter Heidi many, many years from now.

[Heidi Gardner]

The deleted scene. It's special feature.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow, look at my kids. Look at them. Just got to.

[Ben Hosley]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

The twins.

[David Sims]

Twins.

[Heidi Gardner]

What are their names?

[Griffin Newman]

We're going to bleep these out and.

[David Sims]

Right. But on the podcast we call them Bebop and Rocksteady. Cool.

[Heidi Gardner]

I like that.

[David Sims]

That's the code name.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you for coming. Yeah, we're done.

[David Sims]

He's the only one who can end the episode on a technical level.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know anything else. Yeah. Heidi, are you in a.

[Heidi Gardner]

Anything else? There's a big charity event I do in Kansas City.

[David Sims]

Oh, yes.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah. Every end of May, early June called the Thunder Slick. There's also Thunder Gong.

[David Sims]

Thunder Gong.

[Heidi Gardner]

That's Big Slick. We raise money for PED Pediatric cancer at Children's Mercy Hospital. And it's a really Fun event. If you're thinking about coming to Kansas City, you know, we play, like, a celebrity baseball game at Kaufman Stadium, where it follows a Royals game, follows after, which is really fun. And then we show. We do a big show at the T Mobile center, like last year. You know, we have, like, standups, like Jeff Ross, Fortune Feimster. He did a roast. She did stand up. Male non. Johnny did stand up. We did a Hot Ones challenge because the host of Hot Ones was there. Patrick Mahomes was throwing balls, assigning footballs, throwing them into the audience to Travis Kelce. It's, like, so much fun to all raise money.

[Griffin Newman]

And you're bringing, like, all the big shots of Kansas City together.

[Heidi Gardner]

Yeah, Paul. Rob Riggle started it, and then he got Paul Rudd and Jason Sudeikis, then Eric Stonestreet, David Koechner, and then they brought me in as a host.

[David Sims]

Incredible that there's, like, such a good batch of generational Kansas City comedy all stars.

[Griffin Newman]

Ham was just on the show, but he's St. Louis, right? He's from.

[Heidi Gardner]

But he's done the big slick. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Is he a Royals fan? No. Is he a Chiefs fan?

[Heidi Gardner]

No, no, he's a Chiefs fan, but I bet he's a Cardinals.

[Griffin Newman]

He's a Cardinals and blues, right Fan. But he's. He's a Chief saying. Because there's no Kansas City, no St. Louis. I mean, sorry, no St. Louis.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I want to go to Kaufman Stadium.

[Heidi Gardner]

It's beautiful. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Live show. David, you want to do a live.

[Griffin Newman]

You think we could fill Kaufman Stadium? Apparently it seats 37,000. You think we could do that?

[Ben Hosley]

There are still tickets available to our town hall show.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And that. That show. That theater seats a little less than 37,000.

[Heidi Gardner]

I know. My friend. Austin in Kansas City is a Blank Check listener. Shout out to Austin.

[Griffin Newman]

Austin. Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And we're done. Ben's got to go to the dentist for listening.

[David Sims]

Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Tune in next week for Loser.

[Heidi Gardner]

Ooh.

[David Sims]

And as always, Ben has to go to the dentist because he broke his crown.

[Ben Hosley]

Not my crown. I cracked my molar.

[Heidi Gardner]

Let's get him out of pain.

[David Sims]

Oh, yes.

[Ben Hosley]

You think so?

[Heidi Gardner]

Maybe you'll need something.

[Ben Hosley]

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David, David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas, and our Associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by JJ Burch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy. Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on Social checkpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.