Critical Darlings: Bugonia And The (Oscar) Favourites with Marie Bardi-Salinas

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David: Critical Darlings

Episode: Bugonia And The (Oscar) Favourites with Marie Bardi-Salinas

Date: February 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this critical darlings installment, hosts Richard Lawson and Alison Wilmore (with guest Marie Bardi-Salinas) take a deep-dive into Yorgos Lanthimos’s “Bugonia,” discussing its surprising Oscar success, the ongoing evolution of Lanthimos as a Hollywood favorite, Emma Stone’s career trajectory and frequent collaborations, and the state of awards-season independent cinema. The conversation also compares “Bugonia” to similar films, analyzes its themes and emotional impact, and incorporates a lively, sardonic tone throughout.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sundance 2026 Debrief

[00:52 – 18:40]

• Sundance’s Identity Crisis: The last year in Park City before moving to Boulder brought underwhelming films and a sense of fatigue (“…it felt like I was watching a lot of Tribeca movies.”—[01:36] B).
• Festival Economics: Current incentives push indies to act as “auditions for Apple TV” ([02:12] C). Notably, major premieres, such as the Charli XCX doc “The Moment,” felt overly branded, hinting at festival/festival-goer dissonance ([04:25] E, [05:06] A).
• Distribution and Awards Strategy: Should festivals exclude pre-sold titles? The Olivia Wilde film “The Invite” (A24’s big buy), “Josephine” (potential acting contender), and others represent strategic buying and Oscar plays ([05:48] B, [07:27] B).
• Changing Film Ecosystem: Distribution is dominated by streamers, leading to high sales for films like “Coda,” “Palm Springs,” “What’s Inside,” but not always successful audience impact ([10:25] C, [13:19] B).
• Buyers’ Mania: Stories about overenthusiastic buyers (e.g., Amazon’s Jen Salke years) and the dangers of “Sundance delirium” ([15:34] B, [15:51] C, [16:36] C).
• Festival Crowd Psychology: The urge to “witness” a new Little Miss Sunshine and the self-congratulation inherent in festival applause is described ([17:00] B).

2. Yorgos Lanthimos: From Dogtooth to Oscar Darling

[24:26 – 41:40]

• Lanthimos’s Surprising Path: How did such a “weird, grim” filmmaker become beloved by the Academy? The group traces his progression: “Dogtooth” (shockingly nominated for Foreign Language Oscar), “The Lobster,” “The Favourite,” and now “Bugonia” ([24:26] C, [26:04] B).
• Oscars and Auteurism: Genres and styles that used to be Oscar-averse (absurdism, dark satire) are now rewarded, often due to a changing, more international Academy ([33:46] B).
• Hollywood’s “Acceptable Cool”: Lanthimos is “the Academy’s acceptable brand of arty” ([35:49] B).

3. Emma Stone & The Actor-Director Symbiosis

[36:10 – 44:39]

• Stone’s Oscar Surge: Her transformation into “the Millennial Meryl Streep” came as a surprise; her repeated collaborations with Lanthimos enhance actors’ appeal to his projects ([40:03] A, [41:23] B).
• Possible Backlash: “There was a kind of grumble…can’t she work with a different filmmaker?” ([39:35] B). The “Too Many Nominations?” question surfaces.
• Comparative Trajectories: Referencing Jennifer Lawrence’s earlier streak, and how actors risk overexposure ([41:40] B).

4. Partnerships in Contemporary Cinema

[43:30] onwards

• Recurring Collaborations: The trend toward “artistic partnerships” between actor and director (e.g., Ryan Coogler/Michael B. Jordan, Renata Reinsve/Joachim Trier) is explored.
• Emma Stone as Producer: Stone’s dual role as actor and producer in the recent wave of buzzy indie films is noted and compared favorably to less subtle “star vehicles” ([77:16] B).

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Deep Dive: Bugonia and Its Reception

5. Initial Impressions & Festival Buzz

• Everyone’s “Honey” Story: Personal anecdotes about first screenings (NYC premiere with free honey, eating hot honey pizza, home streaming) tie into the film’s bee motif and underline shifting film-release windows ([23:04] C-[24:22] B).
• Mixed Reviews to Accrued Respect: “At first, it wasn’t my favorite Yorgos movie… but on rewatch, I found more to appreciate”—critics’ reappraisals mirror industry buzz ([24:26] C).

6. Plot & Thematic Analysis (No Spoilers)

[51:15 – 62:51, plot and then spoilers from [62:55])

Basic Premise

• Setup: In Georgia, a working-class warehouse worker/conspiracist (Jesse Plemons) kidnaps a pharma CEO (Emma Stone) believing she’s an alien, seeking leverage with the “Emperor.” He and his cousin Don plot to “save the world” via this act ([53:26] C).
• Bee Metaphor & Class Warfare: Bees (and the honey motif) reflect both industry (Emma’s “hive” office) and decline (colony collapse). The class tension between captor and captive is clear, “the girl boss of girl bosses” vs. the powerless ([57:15] A, [55:53] A).
• Corporate Satire: Stone’s Michelle deploys cringe-inducing corporate jargon and hollow virtue-signaling, with dialogue that is “so LinkedIn speak” ([57:43] E, [57:53] C).

Misanthropy, Satire, and Empathy

• Balance of Sympathy: Bugonia is more empathetic than expected; unlike “Eddington,” it finds “a little more pathos…sadly empathetic, not just making fun of these people” ([33:46] B).
• Cultural Relevance: The script’s delicate touch, surprising nuance, and even discomfort bring “cathartic” recognition to deeply online viewers ([52:50] B).
• Quote: “I kept waiting for the movie to tip its hand and be like, ‘oh, well, this is the person you’re supposed to agree with.’ And it just refuses to do that.”—[59:03] B

7. Spoiler Section

[62:55 – 72:57]

Major Revelations & Themes:

• Yes, She’s an Alien: The movie eventually confirms the abduction beliefs—Emma Stone is indeed not from this world ([63:16] B).
• Twist on Humanity’s Flaws: The real rug pull isn’t just her identity, but that “the aliens didn’t ruin us, we did,” echoing an unfixable, original human sin. “There’s something fundamentally sick about humanity… just soul deep.”—[66:55] C
• Plemons’s Pathos and Violence: The audience’s sympathy is further challenged by discovering Teddy is a serial killer, with Don (Stavros Halkias) as an unwitting accomplice and ultimately a tragic, blameless victim ([65:27] E, [68:08] C).
• Global Finale: Humanity is eradicated in a moment of “unifying mass death”—every class, every nation, “a connection, right?” ([67:29] A).

Memorable Quotes:

• On the bleak cosmic message:
  “It’s really uncharitable, not just to a certain faction…but to everybody.”—[66:13] B
• On the mind-bending twist:
  “You guys are the kind of misbegotten, worst version of us. We tried to fix you. You’re unfixable.”—[64:01] C
• On the bee motif:
  “The music in this is awesome—like, bee-like, it’s buzzing the entire time.”—[57:43] E

8. Performance Highlights

• Emma Stone: “She is very funny in this movie…Her hand has been forced.”—[60:58] A, [69:48] C
• Jesse Plemons: “So good, I wish he got nominated”—the role’s “greasiness” and tragic trajectory get particular praise ([61:17] C, [62:42] A).
• Stavros Halkias as Don: The cousin’s fate is genuinely tragic, “oblivious,” gentle, yet heartwrenchingly loving; his death “shocking” and symbolic ([68:08] C).

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Other Notable Moments

• AI, Fake Reviews, and Identity: The hosts have fun noticing that a fake “Richard Lawson” byline article pops up online, “an Andromedan other me,” perfectly on-theme with the film’s concerns about alienation, authenticity, and digital weirdness ([90:01] E–[92:54] B).
• Super Bowl Ads as Auteur Playgrounds: A late episode detour critiques the trend of major film auteurs directing big-budget commercials (Yorgos & Emma’s Squarespace ad; Taika Waititi’s Jurassic Park spot; Wes Anderson’s AmEx ads) ([82:51] A, [83:59] B).
• Emma Stone’s Producer Role: There is admiration for Stone’s producing behind indie darlings (“I Saw the TV Glow,” “A Real Pain”), which also ties into the actor/producer discourse ([77:16] B, [77:47] A).

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Notable Quotes & Time Stamps

• “It felt like I was watching a lot of Tribeca movies.” – [01:36] B
• “Sundance Delirium. People go wild for this at the premiere…they must have it.” – [15:36] C
• “Who would have guessed that Yorgos Lanthimos would become an Oscar darling?” – [24:44] C
• “I think the Academy has decided Lanthimos is their acceptable brand of arty.” – [35:49] B
• “When nominations are read and people groan a little when they hear your name—even if they like you in the movie. I think that’s a problem.” – [45:13] B
• “It’s cathartic…hearing a character in a glossy movie say, ‘I read that thinkpiece in The New York Times.’” – [52:50] B
• “You might as well just scrap it and start over.” – [67:03] C

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment | |:-------------|:----------------------------------------------------| | 00:52–18:40 | Sundance 2026 recap & indie film marketplace | | 24:26–41:40 | Yorgos Lanthimos filmography & Oscar embrace | | 36:10–44:39 | Emma Stone’s career and actor-director dynamics | | 51:15–62:51 | Plot, thematic analysis, and performances (no spoilers) | | 62:55–72:57 | Spoilers and endgame discussion | | 77:16–78:34 | Emma Stone as producer, actor/director partnerships | | 82:51–86:40 | Filmmaker-directed Super Bowl ads | | 90:01–93:20 | AI, identity, & fake articles meta-discussion | | 88:07–89:39 | Will Lanthimos ever win Best Director? |

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Final Reflections & Awards Prognosis

• Bugonia’s Oscar Chances: Hosts agree—nominations are its ceiling; it’s unlikely to win major categories, especially with so many prior nods but few wins for Lanthimos himself ([88:02] B–[88:50] C).
• Lanthimos as Perennial Nominee: “Is he going to be one of those…perennially appreciated but not rewarded kind of filmmakers?” ([88:19] B)
• Emma Stone/Producer Future: Admiration for her expanding Hollywood footprint, hope that her next acting moves find new collaborators ([77:34] C).
• Legacy of Bleak Satire: “Bugonia” is respected for nuance, courage, and its bleak, bleak worldview—even if it didn’t make the hosts’ top-of-year lists or generate mainstream enthusiasm ([72:57] A, [72:04] C).

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Closing Thought

In embracing “Bugonia,” the Academy signals a tolerance for sharp, despairing satire and performances that challenge rather than flatter. The film’s cold empathy and refusal to declare a Good Guy make it a prickly but fascinating entry in the “Oscar darling” canon—and a testament to both Lanthimos and Stone’s unique alchemy at the center of contemporary film culture.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Critical Darlings, a conversation about the awards season. Conversation one contender at a time. Please welcome to the stage your hosts, Richard Lawson and Alison Wilmore.

[B]

Well, thank you as ever to Marie Barty for that lovely introduction. But actually, I can thank you in person, Marie Bardi Salinas, because you're here with us. Thank you for joining us.

[A]

I mean, I'm so honored we're not.

[B]

Going to make you do the actual intro live.

[A]

Oh, I was prepared to do it.

[C]

Yeah. I was kind of looking forward to it.

[A]

Welcome to Begonia Podcast.

[B]

We're here, as always, with producer Ben back from Mexico. Hello.

[D]

Hola.

[B]

There you go.

[E]

That's hello in Spanish.

[B]

I love it. I love it. Before we get into Begonia, can I tell you guys a little bit about my trip to Utah?

[C]

I would love to hear about your trip to Utah.

[B]

I was just going to Utah to see. You know, my church is based there.

[C]

And you sing in the choir. Yeah, it's a clay.

[B]

It's more of a tabernacle, but. Yeah, but. But there happened to be a film festival happening. Yeah, I went to Sundance for the better part of a week. It was the last one in Park City, Utah, before the festival moves entirely to Boulder, Colorado. And it was a weird. It was a weird week for that reason, but also just the movies weren't very good, I heard. Yeah, it was so. So that was, like, a common thing. It wasn't just me. Right. Like, that was kind of the common sentiment that people heard about it.

[A]

Yeah. Although I wonder. I've been. I haven't been to Sundance in a couple years, but I did feel in the years that I went, the hit to miss Ratio is pretty lopsided.

[B]

And look, I will allow for the. For the potential that, like, that was always the case. And we just sort of remember past Sundance with, like, the. The hindsight of, like, oh, this was the good stuff, and cares about the bad stuff. It's just in the moment, you're like, wow, there's a lot of bad stuff. But there was something particularly off about this year that made me. I just. Again, I think I said it on a past episode. Like, I just felt like I was watching a lot of Tribeca movies.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I. You know, we've talked about this a bit before, but I think all of the financial and kind of professional incentives right now to make an independent film are pointing people towards making a particular type of film, which is usually like, you know, like, give me an Apple TV show. Here's my audition for it.

[B]

I saw two Movies about a high school or middle school, I guess, staging a musical about something touchy. There was a one about a 911 musical and there was one about a school shooting musical.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

One was a comedy. The other, the school shooting one was kind of a comedy but also kind of a drama called Run Amok. It was called the other one was called the Musical. And it's about a teacher who gets angry at because his ex girlfriend, Gillian Jacobs, who it's required that she be in every Sundance movie, is dating Rob Lowe, who's the principal of the school where they both teach at. So to get revenge, he turns the production of west side Story into a musical, original musical about 9 11.

[C]

And that one is not a comedy.

[B]

That one is a comedy.

[C]

Okay. The other one is a dramedy song.

[F]

Song.

[B]

No, it's just like they're pretending they're rehearsing west side Story whenever someone checks in on them, but in secret, they're. He's like doing this whole thing. It is kind of funny at the end when they actually show the. The production to see these like middle school age kids who were born in what, 2012 or something. Like one's wearing like big bush ear, like George W. Bush ears. Another has like a bald cap while playing Rudy Giuliani. That's funny. But the rest of it just felt so obnoxiously like Sundance. Like, like, here's the kind of movie we make. We, we premiered here.

[C]

We all remember Hamlet 2, a beloved Sundance classic that we talk about all the time that was also about putting on an unlikely school musical.

[A]

And how much did that one sell for?

[B]

Oh, that was a huge. It was a huge sale. And then no one saw it and.

[C]

Then no one talked about it ever again.

[E]

But what about Hamnet 2?

[B]

Well, that's next year. I think that's, that's the bolder surprise.

[E]

Can I, can I ask. So is it weird that the big movie for Sundance this year was the premiere of the Charli XCX movie the Moment?

[B]

Yeah, that felt sort of borderline. I mean, it's a 24, I guess it was independently produced, so it counts as a Sundance movie. But it did feel like I went to the premiere of that. Cause I had to review it for the Hollywood Reporter. So I had to be at the first screening and as I was walking into the building, there were all these people waiting in the rush line. And there was some, I would assume, like record label person or a 24 person handing out brat hats to everyone waiting, like these, you know, puke Lime green beanies. And so they were all wearing them in the theater when they got in, it felt very branded in a way that I don't think is really, like, great for Sundance.

[A]

Isn't that part of the movie, though? Like, the jokes about the branding?

[C]

It is.

[B]

So they could claim the sort of like, well, we're just being ironic, but you're still doing it.

[C]

I also feel like Sundance has mostly escaped the thing that has happened to a lot of other festivals, which is like, they serve as a place to do the kind of big world premiere, and then it comes out immediately afterwards. Right. Like these, like, movies that have distribution. It's just a way to get an extra boost.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Like south by. Most of the big premieres, like, come out immediately afterwards on. Mostly on streaming. And like Toronto, a lot of the big premieres, like, come out soon after because they will launch their award campaign. Sundance, you know, it's. It's been less like that. So it does feel a little. Yeah.

[B]

There were a couple years recently at Sundance where I sort of took a hard line stance on it, where I was like, I actually think nothing that has distribution should play here. Like, it should all be things for sale. There's no sense in like, well, certainly not Netflix premiere, which they used to do a lot. A24, even at this point is kind of like, well, you guys, you have a pretty big apparatus behind you. But. And then they bought a 24. Actually bought the biggest sales title there, which was the Olivia Wilde movie the Invite with her and Penelope Cruz and Seth Rogen and Edward Norton. And it's really well made and well acted. It feels maybe like more of a Toronto movie, to be honest. But in that it's bigger and it looks more expensively made and all that Oscar y. I think they're gonna make a big play for the screenplay is my guess.

[A]

Did she write it?

[B]

No, Will. Will McCormick and Rashida Jones wrote it. Yeah. And then she just directed and stars it in. She's really good in both jobs. But, like, I think the screenplay is clever enough and it's ba. It's. The problem is it's adapted from a Spanish movie from a while ago that has already been adapted, I think, in like, five other languages.

[A]

But not English.

[B]

But not English. This is the first English one. Yeah. So it's like, okay. I mean, it would be an adapted screenplay nomination if it were to get one, but, like, it might be tough to be, like, they came up with this totally new original idea. Cause it's really not. But it was weird that that was the highlight was this Olivia Wilde directed movie star movie.

[C]

Do you think that they're going to be like this time next year? Are there other movies from the festival that you imagine us talking about in an awards context?

[B]

Maybe so. There was a movie called Josephine that doesn't have distribution. It was in the dramatic competition. It won the jury prize, it won the audience award, which those two things don't often match the audience prize. You'd think of something more crowd pleasing. Whatever. This is a really brutal movie about an eight year old girl who witnesses a very violent and very graphically depicted sexual assault at the start of the movie. And then about how she and her parents deal with her sort of traumatic story. Psychological fallout from that. The parents are played by Gemma Chan and Channing Tatum. Channing Tatum kind of is the bigger part of the two parents. I think that whoever picks that movie up will definitely make a play for Channing Tatum in supporting actor. I think, like, and there are other categories that movie could fit into, but I think that's the easiest play.

[E]

Do movies, if they're not received well, or even if they are and they get sold, do they, do people go and recut them?

[B]

That's a good question. I'm assuming. Yes. But I can't think of an instance when that has happened from Sundance. I know that there are definitely movies that have screened at like Cannes and then been cut for like the US Release or whatever. But so it can happen. And I think that if your movie doesn't go over well at Sundance and you're like, shit, we were supposed to get sold here. You could probably like retool it and maybe take it to another festival or just try to like screen it for potential buyers. But it kind of does feel make or break. And that a lot of movies exited the festival without really even any sales talk makes me a little bit nervous for the future of the festival.

[E]

Maybe they're just holding it back for the Boulder premiere.

[B]

That's what people kept saying. They were like, next year in Boulder, it's gonna be great. And I, we'll see next year in Boulder.

[C]

Sounds like a Passover in Boulder next year.

[B]

So that's the depressing Sundance report. And there was no snow.

[A]

Did you go to the Arby's Lounge?

[B]

I didn't make it to the Arby's. You know, I didn't make it to a single goddamn lounge the whole time. Because it turns out when you cover a film festival for a trade magazine, you're working the entire. I mean, you are Like, I was up late. I was up till like three in the morning writing, editing. Most nights I didn't get to like make my own schedule to like allow me time to go to parties or dinners or anything like that. I just was like at the theater, back to my condo, back to the theater, back to my condo. I'm very grateful for the work. It was really fun and a different kind of experience. But yeah, no Arby's Lounge, no Chase Sapphire Lounge. I didn't get to throw my weight around with like people with iPads at the door. None of it. Which is the reason you go to this thing.

[C]

It is. It's also to see like people who have come up just to go to parties, usually from Los Angeles, who do not know how to dress for going out and also being somewhere cold and usually are wearing something where you're like, oh, man. Yeah, that looks uncomfortable.

[B]

Yeah, really, really high heels on. Well, usually I see streets and the street on Main street is very. It's a steep grade. It's a big hill. And I've seen many an LA weekend warrior fall down on Main Street.

[C]

Can I just do a quick run through about some of the greatest hits since we're moving on to another era of Sundance? Some of the biggest sales at Sundance, because I feel like some of them you're like, yes, obviously that applies. And some of them you're like, what is that movie Coda sold for? I think a reported it was like.

[B]

20, 25 million, but that you have to adjust for Apple. But that's like a million dollars for other companies.

[C]

Exactly. So Apple was like, money's not real, but obviously work well for them. Best Picture in a weird year, they.

[B]

Beat Netflix to a Best Picture win.

[C]

Yeah. Fair play.

[B]

A movie I liked that other people don't. I get it.

[C]

Yeah. But that went to Netflix and then. And we, we continue talking about it a lot to this day.

[B]

It finally corrected the record on Alden Ehren Rank.

[C]

Yeah. Flora and Sun.

[A]

Another Apple movie.

[C]

Another Apple movie. Do you remember what Flora and Son is?

[B]

That is with Eve Hewson, right? Yes, yes.

[C]

Joseph Gordon Lovett.

[B]

I think that movie's cute.

[C]

It is cute, right? Does it seem necessarily worth. I think it was like 20 million or something like that.

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

I mean, it's like, it feels like the post a post Little Miss Sunshine sort of crowd pleaser movie that by going straight to streaming defeats the purpose of that.

[B]

What crowds. Is it pleasing?

[C]

Yeah, exactly. Also, a lot of Apple original movies that go straight to streaming, people don't even know that they exist.

[B]

I honestly, I don't know that I would know how to find them.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Palm Springs.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Blue for, like, 17 million or so. Good movie.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

That's a lot of money, though.

[C]

Yeah, a lot of money. And it just is one of those movies where you're like this. I wish this could have, like, had a long time in theaters.

[A]

But it was also a Covid movie. Like, I remember there was a moment where a lot of people were watching it during lockdown.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it did feel like there was some conversation.

[B]

That's true. And a movie about being stuck in a loop, right?

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

It had a Covid aura.

[C]

The birth of a nation.

[B]

Well, that's.

[C]

That's. Yes. Who. Who knows where.

[B]

That was the first Sundance in the 1920s.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

That's the one you're talking about. Yeah.

[C]

The shocking. It was a shocking acquisition back then.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and 17 million back then.

[B]

I remember filing a review of that movie and being like, well, this is gonna be. This is the biggest thing here. You know, just feeling like, very like I was here for when that movie premiered, and then it all went south terribly.

[A]

I also forget that, like, Armie Hammer is also in that movie. So, like, it continued to become, like, more first.

[B]

As the years went off, if some of the other toxicity had worn off, they were like, oh, here we go. Here's army. Yeah. I feel bad for what's her name, Jennifer Nettles, the country singer who's been trying her hand in acting. She's in that, and she's actually kind of good in. So that's the only reason I was rooting for that movie, I guess, ultimately.

[C]

All right, a few more. It's what's Inside sold to Netflix for 17 million.

[B]

Oh, yeah. That was kind of recently.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Yeah. It was like a buzzy, like Midnighter, I guess, without, like, body swapping.

[B]

It's a fun premise. Yeah. You can people at, like, a weekend away party, they're like, let's play this party game where we switch into each other's bodies. But then what happens if one of those bodies dies? And so your body's dead, but you're in the other person's body. It's like. It's kind of a grim. But I think Netflix clearly was like, this was a big thing at the festival. It's going to be this zeitgeisty thing on our platform. It was not, because word of mouth doesn't work the same way. And I did see kind of people trying to find a Big horror movie at Sundance this year. And I just don't think there was. I mean, there was a movie called Leviticus that I really liked that was a sort of sad, gay Australian horror that's more like contemplative than it is, like, scary scary. And it did sell to neon for like $5 million. But, like, past that in terms of more crowd pleasing, like, fun horror, there just wasn't.

[C]

I think also you see something like, together, right? Like, there was like, clearly people were betting big on. And I just don't feel like it really ended up drawing people in the same way when it actually got released.

[A]

Was that Sundance?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, it was like a fairly big sale by. It does. And that's an interesting point is that like, increasingly, the more that Sundance, the market of it has to rely on like, this, particularly the horror genre. It really does start to bleed into south by where you're like, okay, well, what's the distinction here? Beyond, like ones in January, ones in March.

[E]

And all of these movies seem to be from the last few years. So it's clearly a sort of streamer.

[C]

Well, it keeps going up. But, like, those prices, though, I feel like they also, like, streamers are the ones who can pay that kind of money these days because they don't seem to be assuming they're going to make like, the math is, like, so different. But yeah, like, you know, your classic one is Happy Texas. Right. It's like a classic Sundance acquisition. Supposedly Miramax bought it for like, they said, oh, no, it was only 2.5 million, but, like, it was supposedly 10 million and that.

[B]

And that was in the 90s.

[C]

Yes. And that was in 1999. So, like, there have been people paying a lot of money for movies that were basically never heard from again for a long time. There have been some really big paychecks.

[B]

But, like, but they were rare.

[C]

Like Sundance Delirium. People are like, oh, it's like high altitudes and people go wild for this at this premiere. And people are like, I must have it. I'm going to stay up all night bidding on this thing.

[A]

The aforementioned Hamlet 2 was another pre streaming big sale.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

But the streamers definitely upped the price tags for a little bit. Like, there was a funny year or two where Jen Salke, who was the head of Amazon Content for a while, she. She went from TV to film. She kind of oversaw the whole division and she had never, like, done Sundance before. And so she just showed up with like, you know, suitcases full of cash. And if there was a movie that she even half liked. She'd be like $10 million, 16 million. Like, she bought a movie called Britney Runs a Marathon for $16 million. She bought the Mindy Kaling movie Late Night with Emma Thompson that, like, I liked it and a lot of other people hated. I think that was like over $10 million, and no one saw it. Like, and. And then I think after two years of her doing that, Amazon was like, okay, we're not going to send you to Sundance anymore. Yeah. And they kind of disappeared as a buyer, actually.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was. Well, they also. I think they bought the Big Sick. I think that was a Sundance. So that was actually, like. Seemed like it worked out a bit more. But, yeah, this is a. It's a danger. It is a peril of Sundance is that things that play well, there's often, like, also comparatively than when they actually come out in the. To the. At sea level. They do not necessarily.

[B]

Well, you have audiences that are really, like, eager to be present for something significant. And so they kind of gin themselves up into. It's like, you know, you see, I saw Glenn Close came, did Sunset Boulevard. Like, she, like, did a revival of it like, a few years ago, not the most recent one. And she was 20, 30 years older than she was when she first played it. She was also that much older than the character is supposed to be. She was fine. But the audience applauded basically every two seconds, like, like, almost like standing ovations every. After every song, whatever. And I realized then I was like, oh, they're not applauding for her. They're applauding for themselves for being here. And the more you think about that, when you go to, like, Hugh Jackman and the music band, a terrible production, that people were just like, Well, I spent $700 to be here. So, you know, and that's kind of the vibe at Sundance sometimes where it's like, it was a pain in the ass to get here. The tickets are. If you buy them, are not cheap. It's crazy expensive to stay there. I guess Boulder will alleviate that. So we better enjoy this, and it better feel like we are witnessing the birth of the new Little Miss Sunshine or whatever.

[E]

And the filmmakers are there.

[C]

Yes.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

And so the filmmaking team, you know, cast, crew, whatever, are usually sitting in one portion of the. And especially if it's a comedy, you know that a comedy's not working well if that's the only laughter you hear is coming from house left kind of toward the stage. Cause there it's all the people who worked on it, who are trying to, like, get the room going. I saw a movie like that called Chasing Summer this year. That that was the only place the laughter was coming from. And I was like, ooh, ooh, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Or I mean, I remember seeing you remember Kevin Smith's red state. It was like, Kevin Smith.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

He was gonna make this, like, horror movie that was like Michael Parks.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Or something like that. And he, like, hyped it so much and he was like, I'm going to auction this off in the room as soon as the movie's over. Yes. So then it, like, was like this enormous pain to, like, get into this room to see this, like, extremely, like, kind of forgettable, clumsy thriller. And then afterwards he's like, I'm going to auction it off to myself for $1. And then he was like, kept the rights and you were just like, oh, God. I just fought my way into this room to watch this movie and then watch that happen.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. The second worst thing he's done after that tweet about his wife.

[C]

No. Always will live on.

[B]

Which we're not going to quote here in history. Look it up, people. Yeah, it includes the word brown. Just search Kevin Smith quote Brown. You'll get there.

[D]

David.

[E]

Yes.

[D]

This episode is brought to you by mubi, the global film company that champions great cinema. It champions it unlike the others.

[F]

No, they cry it.

[D]

Barbarian it. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there is always something new to discover with mubi. Each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema.

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You can log on to MUBI and check out all the movies they got. You know, art house, you know, cool indie stuff, foreign stuff. Okay, this is awesome. What? There's a movie star movie now streaming on MUBI in the us Covered on Blank Check soon.

[D]

Well, I think that's the headline.

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

Die, my love.

[D]

Yes. You're gonna need to watch it if you want to keep up with the show.

[F]

True, true. I mean, I guess, you know, do what you want. You don't have to. But we recommend viewing the film. Please view the film Die, My Love. Lynne Ramsay's film.

[D]

Great.

[F]

Came out last year. It was a canon that came out last fall in 2025. It's a visceral and uncompromising portrait of a woman engulfed by love and madness. Starring Jennifer Lawrence, who was nominated for a Golden Globe. Robert Pattinson. It's kind of mostly those two. So very heavy on the two of them.

[D]

Yeah, some top shelf Nolte, I was gonna say. Some seasoning of Nolte and Spacek.

[F]

But this is dry aged, let me tell you. Oh, yeah, you've got them in there, but yeah, it's a lot. It's a big showstopper movie for J. Law and our paths.

[D]

Yeah.

[F]

Knows he's playing second fish.

[B]

Sure.

[F]

But then there's busting out the cello.

[D]

A lemon pepper dry rub of Nick Nolte.

[F]

I love lemon pepper, guys. I love Nick Nolte. I love lick Nolte too. Look at Lynn Ramsey making her eagerly awaited filmmaking return. Obviously, that's why we're covering her.

[B]

We've been waiting for her to make.

[F]

Another movie and it was on the shortlist for cinematography of the 90th Academy Awards. I didn't even know that.

[D]

That's awesome.

[F]

It's a passionate, complicated, destructive love story between two major stars in Lawrence and Pattinson who'd never been together on screen before.

[D]

I know.

[F]

I guess that's not that surprising. But they are quite a pair.

[D]

The bat and the cat. K A T N I S S O Katniss.

[F]

Yeah, the bat and the steak Mystique.

[B]

That is.

[D]

Oh, sure.

[E]

Yeah.

[F]

It's an awesome movie.

[D]

It's an awesome freak. I mean, is that something. He's played a lot of freaks. Sure, sure.

[F]

The spoiler alert for the episode. But I was a big fan of the film. I know you were, Ben.

[D]

Have you seen it yet?

[F]

I haven't seen yet.

[D]

You're going to like it a lot.

[F]

It's also based on a book by Ariana Horowitz.

[D]

Mm. Anyway, there's so much good stuff to watch on.

[F]

There's also awesome other.

[D]

Look, if you're not a member, this is a perfect month to sign up in order to keep up with the show. To stream the best of cinema, you could try Mubi free for 30 [e-mail] blank check. That's M U B I.com blankcheck for a whole month of great cinema for free.

[B]

Anyway, we're not here to talk about Sundance.

[C]

Yes. Anymore.

[B]

We're here to talk about the bog on you. Where did you guys see this movie? No one was in Venice.

[C]

No, I saw this movie at the New York. They had like a New York premiere and it was at the Museum of Modern Art.

[B]

Okay, that's nice.

[C]

And they had. They gave away free honey afterwards. That did not affect my opinion, pro or con. But it was pretty good honey, I have to say. Like, I ate some on toast later.

[A]

Shout out to bees.

[C]

I know. Shout out to bees.

[A]

Shout out to bees.

[C]

They Get a lot. They get talked up a lot. Rightfully in this movie. You know, they work ethic and are easy to exploit, I guess are the two big points.

[A]

I saw this at the Nighthawk around Prospect park. And similarly I ordered the Colony collapse Disorder pizza.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Which was a hot honey sort of situation. Delicious.

[B]

Sounds good.

[A]

And also I will say that just, you know, disclaimer that did not affect my enjoyment of the film. You know, professionals here. We're professionals. And you know, I. I paid $21 for said pizza, but it was pretty good.

[B]

Nighthawk does have better food than Alamo.

[A]

100%.

[B]

Yeah. I don't like the experience necessarily as much at Nighthawk, but. But the food is better.

[E]

I saw it in my house.

[C]

I. I rewatched it.

[A]

Same.

[B]

Yah, yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just interesting that like because of the short windows now that like this movie that was like the hot ticket in Venice or New York, whatever, is always just like, oh, you can just put it. It's just on your TV next to the Olympics, you know, like.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. I think it held up though on streaming for me.

[C]

I actually like, I had been skewed towards down on it for at that first greeting. And I liked it more on second viewing though. It's not one of my favorite Yorgos movies. I do think we should talk about first though. Your ghost Lanthimos, like the first movie of his I ever saw was Dogtooth.

[A]

Sure, same.

[C]

An incredibly disturbing, amazing movie. But like such an upsetting movie. I do not, I will not spoil what happens. But like it contains one of the most uncomfortable scenes in my head from any memory or from any movie I can think of that. Who would have guessed that your ghost Lanthimos would become an Oscar darling?

[B]

Not me. And I don't really know.

[C]

I don't understand how it happened.

[A]

Yeah, like, wasn't Dog Tooth nominated for best?

[C]

It was international. Yeah. At the time. Foreign language film. Right. Yeah. But like it. I looked this up because I was like. So it was nominated alongside Beautiful. Okay, sure. On Sundays.

[B]

The.

[A]

Another disturbing.

[C]

Yes. Very upsetting with some similarities. Yeah. Outside the Law and then in a Better World. Which is the Suzanne Beer film.

[B]

That one, right?

[C]

Yes, but yeah, like so that, I mean that's like a solid slate of films.

[A]

I remember when that got nominated, I. I was shocked.

[B]

That was what, early 2000.

[C]

It was a 2009.

[A]

Yeah, it was. It was probably the last film in like conventional theatrical release I saw projected on film.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

At Cinema Village.

[B]

Oh wow. Okay.

[A]

It's part of its Run. Which I was. I have like a sense memory of hearing the projector as I was sitting in the background.

[B]

Nice sound.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I. I think that's surprising, though. I had forgotten that, that, that they nominated that because I would have thought that something like Dogtooth or his follow up film, Alps would have been, like, too weird, too grim for the Academy, you know, even. Even. Even in that little category.

[C]

But I guess, you know, like, Dogtooth was a phenomenon. Like, definitely I remember, like, but like, in that, like, like art film way, I feel like even I remember the New York Times review. I think it was a. Oh, Scott. AO Scott, who, like, mentions a bit like, the kids love, you know, like the art house kids love this movie, this crazy movie. I mean, it was like. It felt like something new in this very upsetting way. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, like, the foreign language film, that's a different, more unpredictable category. Like, I feel like it sneaking into there is less weird than the fact that, like, in less than 10 years, the favorite would be getting 10 Oscar nominations. You know, like.

[B]

Yeah, well, I guess when you add all of the trappings of a period piece because then you get costumes and production design and all that. But like. But then, like, the Lobster was his first English language movie that was at Cannes in what, the 2015, I think, and that, you know, was a hit at Cannes and it had like, Colin Farrell and Rachel Weisz and then sort of unknown Olivia Colman, at least unknown to Americans. But it was enough of a hit that, like, there was Oscar buzz behind it. Maybe for performances, but mostly for the screenplay, which did end up getting a nomination, but it was the sole, like, nod for that movie. But it was a sign that the Academy was, like, getting a little bit more comfortable with his whole deal.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So, like, nothing. So foreign language film for Dogtooth, nothing for Alps, which is, I feel like what people are not as, like, we're not as into.

[A]

I still haven't seen that one. I've seen every other one of his movies, but I don't even know what it's about.

[C]

Yeah, it has some stuff in common with Kineta, which was his first, I think, solo one. And then nothing for Killing of a Sacred Deer.

[B]

No.

[C]

Which is a brutal movie, a very unfriendly movie. Yes, but then the favorite. Yes, you're right. It's like a period piece. It is about some real characters, even though you're getting really off kilter versions of them. But it is still. It is a weird movie.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's shot with like fisheye lenses and like, it's sort of sapphic, but kind of not. It has a weird sort of non ending in a way. But I think that the combination of Lanthimos, like aesthetic sort of choices, that sort of dark humor of the way he stages things mixed with this more traditionally, you know, witty script by Tony McNamara, you know, respected British writer, sort of was the perfect combination. And then, you know, McNamara worked on poor Things with Lanthimos and you'd think, okay, so when Lanthimos makes a movie with this guy, it's Oscar friendly enough because it's, you know, a period piece, it's ornately designed, it has this kind of clever, almost like Tom Stopperty dialogue, whatever. But when he goes back and does one of his own little oddities, that's not gonna fly with the Academy. Kinds of kindness would sort of bear that out. But then Begonia is this weird combination of both because it feels like he wrote it. He didn't write it. It was Will Tracy, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Who's like a succession guy. He made the menu. So it's not quite as Witty as Tony McNamara or it's kind of pointed in a different direction. But a Clearly had enough going for it that the Academy was like, well, you know, it's not kinds of kindness. So we'll give it what, five. Five Oscar nominations or whatever.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I. It's also like, it's a present day movie, but it does have this, like. This is going to be a bit about like how we live now, right? Like capital letters. And I feel like that must help as well, you know, like. Yeah, it is trying to be like, in some ways, in addition to the premise, it is like an incel versus a girl boss. Right.

[A]

Like it leans into conspiracy rabbit.

[C]

Exactly.

[E]

When this movie came out, I was interested in it because I love the favorite. The favorite is one of my favorite Oscar movies.

[A]

Favorite's one of your favorites.

[E]

Yeah. I mean, in years. It's like catnip for me. And I was really interested in this movie and then it sort of felt like it came and went a little bit. And I don't think either of you brought it up in any of our earlier discussions about like, you know, best Picture. It's a little surprising we're talking about it. This movie is so spiky and misanthropic and like, maybe even a little bit mean. And I'm. I guess I'm just curious what happened in that lull between, you know, the sort of middling Reception, and then it's like popping up all over.

[A]

Now, I would disagree with you slightly there about the tone of the movie. I don't think it's that mean. I think that there's a lot of sensitivity and pathos, especially, like with Emma Stone's character. Begonia kind of fell into this pattern of a lot of the fall Venice movies kind of coming out in theaters and flopping a little bit, which I know, like David Sims was like, oh, yeah, Flop Fall. But it definitely seemed to be part of a bigger pattern of these movies not connecting as much with audiences once they were released and then that leading to a, like, okay, well, this isn't going to be much of a factor in the Oscar race, even if it is well liked by critics.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it felt like. I think it was a question mark for me and maybe I wouldn't have brought it up a couple months ago because of that. It didn't do so well. And it was. I thought it was one of Yorgos one for me. You know, I thought, like, it's not. This is not academy facing. But I think honestly, the more that in Flop Fall, the more other movies kind of fell away. There was Begonia, a pretty good, really well acted movie that had some relevant, you know, sort of critique of modern life or whatever that, you know, that looked good. And I also think it helps that, like, they're kind of just like on the lant, the most trained now. Like, the bar for entry for him is a lot lower than it is for other filmmakers.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I cannot still really wrap my head around why the academy is like, we love this. This is our guy. Like, why this particular guy. And I like your girl's anthemist films often a lot. But, like, I will say it is interesting to think about Begonia succeeding where, say, like, Eddington did not. Because, like, and I mean, like Eddington directed by Ari Esther, who produced Begonia. They do cover a lot of the same territory. Emma Stone is in both of them, you know, but like, Eddington, I think, was perceived as genuinely misanthropic and it didn't give you kind of like, much by way of like a softer edge character to hold on to. Right. Like, the ending in particular is just like very like a bleak. Bleak. So bright. Yeah. Whereas Begonia does come around to, yes, like, a slightly more mournful, I would say, like, it also, like, I think it leaves a lot of empathy for its main character, even as he is doing a lot of things that are monstrous. Right. Like, it allows for A lot of, like, understanding that he has had a horrible life. And I think that maybe is a little friendlier than, like, the ways that, like something like Eddington, while I think tackling a lot of the same divisions, just like, skewers all of its characters relentlessly, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I don't think that Begonia is, like, making fun of these people as much as it's sort of sadly empathetic, you know, and we can get into that sort of more in the plot stuff. But as far as, like, why the Academy has embraced Lanthimos so much, I mean, I think it's a facet of the Academy changing, you know, different membership, more non American members. That. That does kind of change the ph. Balance of the whole voting body. But I also think that on occasion, the Academy can just get kind of hooked on a filmmaker, you know, and even one is sort of strange. Like, I think the closest analog, even though he makes very different films than Linthimos, does, like the kind of David O. Russell madness of the late aughts into the 2000 and tens where he did three movies, and it was the Fighter, Silver Linings, and American Hustle. Right. In the span of a few years that just got bazillion Oscar nominations, Silver Linings Playbook got four acting nominations. Five. No, five. Because it was De Niro, Jackie Weaver, Jennifer Lawrence, Bradley Cooper, or.

[A]

No, it was just four. But it was in every.

[C]

Julia Stiles wasn't nominated, unfortunately.

[A]

No, but it was. I mean, that's its own feat to be nominated in every acting category.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And the Fighter got Bale an Oscar, Melissio an Oscar sitter. But anyway, like, he had this run of these three big movies, you know, American Hustle, which the New York film Critical Circle awarded best film of the year.

[C]

Were you part of that?

[A]

So many questions.

[B]

But for whatever reason, there was just this run where the Academy was like, well, if that guy makes a movie, like, he's getting on the board, you know, And I don't think that's exactly what's happening with Lanthimos, because Lanthimos does make other things that the Academy does not pay attention to at all. But. But for whatever reason, I think if I had to be kind of cynical about it, I think that as a sort of collective consciousness, the Academy has decided that Lanthimos is their acceptable brand of cool. Like, that's. That's our pick for, like. See, we're kind of arty.

[C]

You know, it's funny to be like. As opposed to say, like, Wes Anderson.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Does get nominated for things on occasion, but not nearly as successfully. Right. Like, and as regularly as Lanthimos has. And you're like, they both make movies that are, like, skewed in this extremely kind of like, personal and distinctive direction. But, like, people like the Academy is just like, no. Like, is this too sealed off? Right.

[A]

I think that there's one major thing that Yorgos has going for his films that maybe someone like Wes doesn't is that especially with his collaborations with Emma Stone, there is this sense that actors get to really play in a sandbox and they get to have these really ballsy, fun, distinct performances where I think, I mean, I do. There are a lot of performances in Wes Anderson movies that I love, like, you know, Ralph Fiennes and Grand budpass Hotel. There is more of a, like, restraint in the style of those performances. And I think with your ghost, you have both the craft side of things where the films look incredible and interesting and distinctive with poor things, which we haven't mentioned, that did incredibly in a lot of below the line categories that year at the Oscars. But you also have the actor portion of it that feels unique.

[B]

Yeah. And I do think that, like, you know, we. We had said a couple weeks ago that, like, the sort of trite and offensive perhaps adage about, you know, why young men don't win the Oscars is because Academy voters vote for the woman they want to sleep with and the man they want to be. You know, I also think with, like, there's some version of that with Lanthimos where, you know, the acting branch is the biggest branch in the Academy. They're voting for a filmmaker they want to work with.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because it looks fun.

[C]

Yeah. And I think when, like, even at that party, at that MoMA party, you could see people kind of like rushing Lanthimos and being like, like, hey, like.

[B]

The joke being that, like, I did a Q and A with him for this movie back in the fall and like, he is not like a chatty guy.

[C]

No, no. He is someone who clearly does not love glad handing and, like, working the room. And it is funny to be like, now you've got to do this all the time.

[B]

I think there might be a reason why when he writes his own movies that his characters speak in a kind of flat apex way because he himself is a little bit like that.

[C]

So how much do we think, like, his collaboration, his ongoing, regular collaboration with Emma Stone is the reason that doesn't hurt? Yeah, yeah. I mean, the Academy does seem to like these kinds of stories. Right. Like, the narrative of, like, people who are just, like, they have this incredible artistic partnership. Even if it does, it feels like that isn't necessarily great for you if you just get nominated so many times for, like, working with the same people. Right. Like, it doesn't necessarily make you more inclined to win.

[B]

I do have that question about Stone. I mean, like, yeah, you think about, like, Dianne Wiest won two sporting actress Oscars about almost a decade apart, both for Woody Allen movies. Think about, like, Marcia Mason back in the 70s, like, two best actress nominations because she was in her husband Neil Simon's films. You know, um, like, there are. There are those sort of partnerships. I mean, DiCaprio and Scorsese, obviously, that can be fruitful. But with Stone, I don't know how you guys felt, but I felt like when the nominations came out a couple weeks ago, when her name was kind of announced, people were sort of like, great, she's good in that movie. But there was also kind of a grumble to it where people were like, ugh, again, like, can't she work with a different filmmaker? This feels very samey. She just won, like, and she, you know, like, Amanda Seyfried could have taken her spot or any number of other actors. I worry that for the Stone Lanthimos thing that it's starting to turn a little bit. Like, people are getting a little tired of it.

[A]

I think it started turning the second she won for Poor Things.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Beating out Lily Gladstone, who had been vastly considered the kind of favored twin.

[B]

And you can see it on Stone's face.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Where she's, like, excited when she finally gets up to the stage, she's, like, happy because she just won a fucking Oscar. But, like. But, like, yeah, when they call her name, there's this clear, like, oh, that wasn't supposed to happen.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I feel like maybe even a flicker of, like, is the Internet going to make me a villain for doing this?

[A]

I think if you had asked me, like, 10 years ago, who would have been the closest millennial analog to Meryl Streep in terms of Oscar nominations, I don't know if I would have picked her. No, I think I would have picked Jennifer Lawrence. I think felt like she was in a zone for a while. And then also you have, like, Saoirse Ronan, who is younger, but she still, like, get five nominations at this point. But I think the, like, Emma Stone going from super bad to being again the millennial Meryl Streep in quotes is something slightly unexpected.

[B]

Yeah, it is. Yeah. And I think the Lawrence of it all, I think you're right that she was probably the best candidate, but I think she had to remove herself from that. Like, I think I remember when she got nominated for Joy, a David or Russell movie that didn't perform quite as well otherwise. But, like, I was like, that's a. I think a terrible movie and she's fine in it, but she's really miscast. But the Academy still nominated her for it.

[A]

It's a very similar analog. Although I do think that Begonia is a better movie. Yeah, it is Joy with a better, more interesting performance. But it's the third nomination or. Yeah, right. This is her. This is Emma's third. Your ghost nomination.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. And that's what Joy was for Lawrence. And I think that I remember when the year. In previous years, when Lawrence obviously won for Silver Linings and then was nominated a year or two later for American Hustle, she was kind of saying publicly, I don't want to win this.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But it kind of looked like she was going to. And I think that she was like, if I win this, it's going to be really bad. I'm going to be, like, overexposed. And then some of that she took with her, and that's why she, like, walked away from starring in movies for a while.

[C]

Well, I think. And this is also. A lot of this was David O. Russell's fault, but, like, she getting cast as these women who are clearly like 10 to 15 years older, if not more than she was supposed to be, you know, and you're, like, looking at this woman who is also at the same time playing a famous teenager on this franchise and is like, you know, playing like a widow or playing like a, you know, beleaguered, like, single mom who's invents a mop. Yeah. Like, these. These things where you're like, obviously, you are like, she still has a baby face, too, you know, And I could. I feel like there was this aspect of her just being like, I need to seize control of this. Like, seize it back by, like, taking a break. But, yeah, like, the fact that she kept getting nominated for these roles as well felt like it was like, almost sealing her into this path.

[B]

And I think that that can be kind of dangerous. And I'm sure that Stone feels differently about it because she has won twice. And, like, you know, working in a lanthimos thing is not like working with David o'. Russell. I mean, Jennifer Lawrence recently was like, I understand that other people have had hardships with him. He's been good to me, but I hear what other people are saying because he's famously like, a complete fucking monster. Stone seems to be in a much healthier creative partnership, certainly.

[C]

And she's also. She's producing these movies now, so it feels more collaborative. It feels not just like she is a muse or something like that, you know, like, this is an ongoing creative partnership. She's being active in making these happen.

[B]

I just sort of selfishly want to see her work with other people.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, she is. I mean, but, like, it's like Cruella, you know, which I hated. But, like.

[A]

Or if she, you know, she's in Eddington, but it's such a small part of an ensemble.

[B]

Yeah. And she's there to, like, help it get financed, you know, I feel like.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, it's worth pointing out, though, like, this is a year of, like, a bunch of partnerships. Right. Like, you have Michael B. Jordan. He's been in a lot of Ryan Coogler movies.

[B]

Oh, have they worked together?

[C]

They have.

[B]

A few times.

[C]

A few times. Renata Rheinzva has been at three of Joachim Tra's movies. And then Ethan Hawke and Richard Linklater.

[B]

They just met them. They actually met at the Golden Globes.

[C]

It's weird. It was weird. You're like, how did you make that movie together? And they were like, oh, I'll resume.

[B]

Well, Ethan was just talking in his favorite bar to his friend Evie White.

[A]

And the bar itself was really, really tall.

[B]

Yeah, well, it's. It's that bar in midtown that does that.

[C]

It's weird, historical, but, like, a weird choice. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, like, obviously, there is a tradition of this, and also, obviously, the Oscars do not mind it. But, yeah, I do feel like, certainly, just, like, looking at it from the outside and from a sense of the public, like, it's hard to get excited about Emma Stone getting nominated again for a role in this type of movie. Like, yeah, it does feel a bit like she's been working in a particular mode. She's gotten very comfortable with it. She is, I think, good at it. But it would be nice to see her do something different.

[B]

Yeah. I don't think she's in danger of, like, you know, Christoph Waltz winning two Oscars for essentially the same performance from the same director.

[C]

I just, you know, by the way, I just saw the Luc Besson Dracula. Yeah. Where he plays Van Helsing, but not called Van Helsing. And I'm like, is Christoph Waltz just playing himself in this movie? It's possible he doesn't know he's acting fully.

[B]

I watched that movie and I was like, God, this is like the eighth time I've seen Christoph Waltz play Van Helsing. And then I looked at it, I was like, no, Richard, this is. But I just assumed he just like has, I guess because he's in Frankenstein. That kind of is what confused me, I think. Is he the first actor in a long time to be in like Frankenstein and Dracula, like within months of each other?

[C]

That's a good question. Yeah, I guess he could win a prize for that.

[B]

You could also argue that Mahershal Ali winning two, like near back to back supporting actor, you know, especially for the second one for Green Book, which it was. People were like, we have nothing against him in that movie, but a, he's a lead, not supporting, and B, we don't like that movie. Well, the Academy certainly did. But like, I think that that was harmful to his career and I think it was harmful to Waltz's. I don't think Stone is quite in that same danger zone. But you do have a problem when nominations are, you know, read on the Thursday morning and people groan a little bit when they hear your name, even if they like you in the movie. I think she's wonderful in Begonia. Rewatching it. I was like, good God. Like, she's so. And yet even I was like, oh, okay, we've been here before. And I think that's. That's a problem.

[D]

David.

[F]

Yes.

[D]

I am so excited about this episode sponsor. Yes, me too. Might truly be the most excited I've ever had for anything to sponsor this podcast. Today.

[F]

We're excited to, like, sponsors that tell you how to, like, help your finances.

[B]

Hey, easy.

[F]

Okay, okay.

[B]

Sorry, sorry, sorry. Easy.

[D]

Today's episode of Blank Check is brought to you by Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie.

[F]

Nirvana the band, the show, the movie. Marie's here too, because everyone's so excited.

[A]

Yeah. I love this movie. I mean, I love this band, this show, this movie.

[D]

Yes. Important correction. This film is finally coming to theaters. February 13th is the start of the theatrical rollout.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

From our friends at Neon.

[F]

Neon's bringing it out.

[D]

We have been waiting impatiently almost a year to see this film. We saw this at south by Southwest.

[A]

One of the best screenings of my life.

[B]

Truly, truly.

[D]

It was an unbelievable experience. Ben, you were there, had a blast.

[F]

And I had never seen or engaged in the show previously.

[D]

Neither in the group.

[F]

Don't really need it. It was like seven of us, the context to enjoy.

[D]

Absolutely.

[B]

It's a big thing.

[A]

I think you need to know, like.

[D]

What Toronto is because you knew nothing other than us hyping you up for. Well, this was.

[F]

We should say, it's a city in Canada. Yes, I went in. You guys had just been like, it's the best thing ever. And not just you, other people. I can't believe how good. And I was like, this is so overhyped.

[D]

And here's the great thing about dating.

[B]

I'm.

[F]

I'm walking in like I felt mad about it, where it's just like they've. They've primed it too much.

[D]

I like that you acknowledge this because sometimes if we tell you something's good, I see you go like, you put your fists up.

[F]

Well, I'm just like, relax, because I need to. I can't go in with too much hype because that's not good for my critical experience. Experience of a movie. And then I thought it was better than the hype.

[D]

This is the thing. This movie is truly a miracle. I think it is the funniest movie of the last 10 years, easily. And listeners of the show know I am often bemoaning the state of the theatrical comedy. And this is a movie that provides the thing I've been longing for, which is you go see this with a crowd. It is just electric. Every five seconds, rolling, laughter. And the movie just builds and builds and builds. This is a movie from Matt Johnson. Yes, Director BlackBerry. One of my favorite movies the last couple of years. Him and Jay McCart started as a web series, became a TV series, and now is a movie. But you don't need to know any of that. This works as a clean entry point. It's a movie about two friends who are obsessed with their band playing at one venue.

[F]

They want to play at the Rivoli.

[C]

They want to play at the.

[D]

All you need to know about these guys. Before the lights went down at the south by Southwest screening, I believe you turned to me and said, what do I need to know? And I said, all you need to know is they want to play the Rivoli.

[F]

They got to play the Rivoli.

[B]

I've.

[F]

You know, I've been to Toronto many times. I've stayed.

[A]

Have you been to the Rivoli?

[E]

Never.

[F]

I've stayed on Queen west, though, and I've certainly walked by the Rivoli many times. And I was like, oh, yeah, the Rivoli there.

[D]

It's not Carnegie Hall.

[F]

No, it's the fucking bar.

[D]

You never see these guys.

[C]

What do you mean?

[A]

It's the most important music venue in Canada.

[D]

You never see these guys practice their music, but all you know is that every episode episode starts with here's the plan, here's how we play the Rivoli, right? We gotta play the Rivoli. And this movie starts from there and explodes in unbelievable ways. I think this movie is truly like a magic trick. Beyond just how funny it is and for how much it's caked in the deep lore of this Nirvana the Band the show universe that's existed for 15 years. You can just go in knowing nothing and be blown away. And for a movie that seems kind of slapdash and roughly made from the start, it starts to pull off genuine like cinematic magic tricks where you cannot believe how this thing was made.

[B]

What that.

[F]

What was my letterbox review? Griff, did you see it?

[B]

No.

[D]

Please tell me lol.

[F]

How did they make this? Truly, that was how I.

[A]

How did this get made?

[F]

You know, I was also just like, how did they make this? I don't get it.

[D]

You don't understand how they're getting away with it legally. You don't understand how it was cleared for release. And there. There is a melding of scripted and non scripted them engaging with real people on the street where the line between what is planned and what is not boggles your brain. It was my favorite thing I saw.

[F]

All of 2025 and now it's coming out in 2026. Now listen, I do have to do some talking points, okay?

[D]

Some talking points.

[F]

Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie is in theaters February 13th. Get tickets now we must say this. Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie. They're very clear that we have to say the title of Nirvir the Band.

[E]

The show the Movie.

[B]

Why?

[D]

It's a really simple, easy title.

[F]

Nirvana the Band, the Show the Movie. It really is a kind of like go in cold, expecting something fun. I don't think you need too much more than that. I know it sounds unwieldy or whatever, but just like I think you're going to have a pretty good time if.

[D]

You trust our opinion at all. Take this recommendation. Don't look it up. Go in and I really, really doubt there is any chance you will be.

[F]

Disappointed in theaters February 13th. Get your tickets now. Nirvana the man, the show the Movie.

[C]

Should we talk Begonia?

[B]

Yeah, we want to be careful about spoilers. So I think this is where we'll. We'll put the heavy demarcation line down, right? Or do we.

[C]

Well, let's talk it first and then we can we can go into. When we get into spoiler territory, maybe.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

But yeah, I will say I. I remember seeing the movie that this is based on, Save the Green Planet, the Korean film, like, a long time ago. And I did not love it, I think, because, like, Begonia tries to grapple with this more. But, like, it has. It's kind of like got one big joke, right? Like one big, very mean joke. And it's like a funny one. But yeah, it's not a ton to sustain a whole movie on. And I did feel like Begonia does something to build off of that a bit with regard to. Yes. Like, trying to be like how we live now, but also like giving Jesse Plemon's character a lot more pathos.

[B]

Yes. He's not like, I, When I, when the movie started, I was like, okay, so he's a parody of a dangerous parody of like, incels. What, like terminally online people. And he. That is in that character. But then, like the script, kind of, which I was surprised by because I thought that, that the menu, which Will Tracy wrote was so broad and it sort of like attempts at cultural, social, satire, whatever. I thought this was a lot more nuanced. Maybe that's the lanthamos touch or something. But I also kind of embarrassingly, like, because I am also very online. Like, I like hearing a character in a glossy movie say, like, I've read that think piece in the New York Times. Like, wait, that's how I live horribly. You know, there's something kind of cathartic about that.

[C]

Yeah, well, especially when he. He holds his own against her when she tries to be like, you're just so. You're online poison. Like, like, like the kind of the response that I also would have had. Yeah, you've been like, You've just. You've been spending way too much time on message boards. Like you've just poisoned yourself. And he's like, no, like, like, sure, I've made this YouTube video in which I showed what your spaceship looked like, but also like, no, I am. I. I understand what you're saying, and I reject it. Like, yeah, like, it, it. It does, like, kind of. It doesn't go as like, immediately down, I think an easier path than the way it could.

[E]

Should we lay out the premise?

[C]

Yes, well, so Begonia is about. It's set in Fayette County, Georgia, I believe it is. But it is about a pharmaceutical CEO played by Emma Stone named Michelle Filler, who gets kidnapped by a warehouse worker named Teddy Gatz, who is also a full time conspiracist who is convinced that the world has been invaded by Andromedan aliens who have been poisoning the planet and making everything worse and killing off the bees. Killing off the bees, causing colony collapse disorder, creating like, poisons that have, among other things, put his mother in a coma. And basically he and his, he's enlisted his cousin Don and, and they are going to save the world by capturing and holding an Andromedon hostage and demanding face to face with the Emperor to. It's unclear why he thinks he has any leverage to kind of get them to go, but he wants to be the representative of humanity and be like, we can talk this through. And yes, when you watch it, you're like, oh, he is a delusional person who has just fixated on this high profile woman and is now kidnapped and is going to torture her.

[B]

I have to say, rewatching it this week amidst all of like, these many thousands more Epstein file pages being released dubiously by the Department of Justice, whatever. And you're reading it and you're like, oh, Noam Chomsky is involved. Katie Couric complimented his lasagna. I was kind of like, oh, the conspiracy theorists were right. Like, Pizzagate is kind of real. Like, these people all know each other. They're all doing nefarious things. And so watching this movie, I was like, kind of more sympathetic to the Plemons character than I had been when I saw it in October. Cause I was like, I mean, like, is he that crazy for thinking that there's this secret network of things, entities pulling the strings? Cause like, we're kind of finding out more and more that there is.

[A]

There's also like a, you know, very distinct class imbalance between Michelle and Teddy and dawn where you have the, it's. You don't want to reduce it to like, eat the rich. But that is kind of, if you boil it down to that, that you have like a. Someone without societal power going against, you know, the girl boss of all girl bosses.

[B]

Yeah. And then that, that, that, that said girl boss, not incorrectly, necessarily tries to dismiss his conviction with like, well, you just see the Internet got in your brain because you don't have the fortitude to like, resist what it's trying to tell you. Like, there isn't a condescension there that I think you see play out in the real world. Like all these Trump voters are just sort of brainwashed by Facebook and Fox News. And it's like, yes, that is partly true, but like, a lot of them are thinking for themselves and they hear the. The. The. The other side and don't, you know, whatever.

[C]

Like, I mean, there's a lot of reason to not have trust in a pharmaceutical company.

[B]

What do you mean?

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

Well, that was the weird thing about COVID where you're like, thanks, Pfizer. Why am I thinking Pfizer? Like, they're awful.

[C]

Yeah, Well, I think also, like, Emma Stone is great at leaning into just how off putting that character is. I mean, I think my. I saw this movie with a friend who told me she had, like, chills about the particular line where she's like, we've got a change in, like, corporate culture now. You're all free to live at 5:30 and go be with your friends or go with. Be with your families. Except, of course, you know, it's not compulsory and we still do have to meet quotas and like, we're still a business and, you know, let your conscience be your guide. You know, it's like such a great. Like, like. No, like we, you know, you know, we support like, work life balance. Except, like, also, you have to get your work done and also, like, maybe you shouldn't leave.

[A]

We also, like, meet her as she's. They're filming her speak about diversity in a corporate video where she then complains about the overuse of the word diversity in the video. And, you know, she continues to use a lot of corporate jargon when she condescends to Teddi, like, you know, can we have a dialogue? Or phrases like that that feel just so LinkedIn speak.

[E]

And there's a metaphor running through the entire film on both sides about bees. Teddy is a beekeeper, and the movie opens with him taking care of the bees. But then when we first meet Emma Stone's character in her office, the office is stylized like a hive. You can sort of. This movie shoots a lot from underneath the characters, like from below, as we're sort of like gazing up at them, which is kind of a. I don't know, unsettling. But so we see the ceiling of the office and it's got these weird sort of patterns, like industrial sort of feeling. And then the music, which is incredible in this, I think it got a best score nomination. The music in this is awesome and is like very be like, it's like buzzing the entire time. It's really cool.

[C]

Yeah. Though also has the like, bursts of kind of like swelling, heroic music. You know, like sometimes in very incongruous moments, like the battle to be like, who is the hero? Like, Both of these characters are like, I am the hero of this story. And you kind of. I think the movie does a good job of, like, keeping you very much on one side for a while and then allowing you to be like, wait, wait, hold on. Yeah.

[E]

And the central question is, like, is she an alien or not? Is sort of what you're feeling through the movie?

[B]

I think that in those scenes where they're, you know, she's in the basement or at the dinner table, and they're just having these, like. These dialogues, that's when the movie is, like, most electrifying. And it's because, like, you know, it's really. I found it hard to sort of, like. I kept waiting for the movie to kind of tip its hand and be like, oh, well, this is the person you're supposed to kind of agree with. And it just refuses to do that, which is kind of vexing. And I think that may be one of the reasons why it didn't have, like, a huge commercial run. Is that, like, not to, like, say that anyone who felt this way is not thinking hard enough or whatever, but, like, it doesn't give you that sort of easy satisfaction that maybe one wants from a political movie sometimes. I mean, you could say the same thing about Eddington. I mean, I remember when I did this Q and A, it was at, like, the AMC in Lincoln Square on the Upper west side of Manhattan. And so, you know, big, busy theater, it was packed because the people knew when they bought the ticket that there would be a Q and A with, like, Emma Stone and stuff. And they seemed excited to see, like, these movie stars 10ft away from them, but really kind of nonplussed by the film. They were just did not know how to sort of feel about it. Like, they weren't really laughing at things people said during the Q and A because, like, I think they were just like, I don't know what I just watched. And I think that it makes it all the more surprising, I guess, that the Academy was like, yep, let's give it all the summations. Because it doesn't offer any easy kind of. At least initially.

[C]

Yeah. I do think one of my favorite Emma Stone bits in this movie is the scene the first time she very obviously trying to placate Teddy, records a voice message being like, yes, I am an alien. I would like to speak to my alien supervisors on behalf of this. And as he's listening to it, she's doing this. Yes, yes. Smile. This is what you want, right? Like, this is what you want. It's so good.

[A]

That's with the way she signs off where she's like, okay, that's it.

[C]

Thanks.

[A]

Bye.

[C]

Like, she is. She is very funny in this movie. Like, I. I do think Jesse Plemons is very good, too, but, like, gets a lot less of the humor because his life is just like, yeah. So tragic. And also, he's doing a lot of things that are so awful.

[E]

Shout out to how greasy he is.

[C]

He is incredibly greasy.

[E]

He looks terrible in a great way.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Like, he looks like he has never washed his hair. Like, maybe in his whole life.

[B]

Were you guys Friday Night Lights Watchers the first season? I just think it's so funny because that show, and I guess this has happened in the past with other series, but, like, that's a great show. At least minus the second season, which kind of goes off the rails. But you're watching it and there's like, hunky, Hunky Taylor Kitsch, very cute. Zach Guilford, who plays Matt Saracen, the sort of other football star, whatever. And then Jesse Holmans is, like, the friend of the guy, you know.

[A]

Oh, is he on the team? Is he not even on the team?

[B]

He's like, the manager or something. Yeah, something like that. Like, he's not a player. And it's just so funny to think, like, oh, of those three young actors who are all about the same age, you know, all breaking out at the same time, like, that Jesse Plemons would be the one to like, have this not just, like, good career, but, like, lauded. Like, every cool filmmaker wants to work with him. And then Taylor Kitsch did, like, John Carter and that was the end of that. Never see that. But, like, but he keeps proving why, you know, And I think in this movie, like, I remember before this, months before this came out, like, some colleagues at my old job had seen it early for something and they were like, oh, this is Plemons as Oscar. And then he didn't even get nominated because it was a crowded field, I guess.

[A]

When I rewatched the movie, I was like, oh, God, he's so good. I wish he got nominated. But then I looked at the five in the category, and I'm like, I wouldn't replace anyone.

[B]

So should we get into spoiler territory a bit, maybe?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. So, listeners, if you have not seen Begonia yet, pause this. Go watch it. It's on Peacock. Also, you can watch the Olympics. Peacock, Olympic zone. It's great. I recommend it. Come back and then we'll talk about Swedish.

[E]

Hey, if you just want to skip the spoiler chat then fast forward 11 minutes.

[B]

Yeah, so I, I said earlier that, like, there's no definitive answers. Except there is, eventually. Were you guys, like, how did you feel about the reveal that all of this was real? Does that, like, politicize it in a different way for you or.

[C]

I think that the bigger rug pull for me is not like, I was like, of course she's gonna be an alien. Like, the movie, like, would have nowhere to go if it were. If it were just like, Right. She was just this woman who's being tortured and electrocuted and has to run away. I feel like the bigger rug pull is when she's like, no, here's the actual history of humanity. And it's that, like, you. You know, like, we felt bad we accidentally killed the dinosaurs. Like, whoops. Like, we created, like, life in our image.

[E]

It's very Scientology.

[C]

Yes, it is. Or like, yeah, Scientology. Or like Prometheus, you know, where we're all like, started by these kind of like, disco looking guy, like, alien guys who just came and seeded life and then come back and, you know, I don't know what they want from us. They'll never make a third Prometheus, you know, so Even though they should, I love those movies anyway. But yeah, like, then to be like, you guys are like the kind of like, misbegotten, like, worst version of this. And you keep getting. Getting worse. And like, we tried to fix you, but we couldn't because, like, you're unfixable. And you're the reason, like, we didn't cause any of this problem. Like, all of these problems are because of you. Like, I think, like, that is like the bigger and, like, tougher, like, kind of like twist in part because, yes, you have just watched, like, learned so much about this guy who's like, mother, you know, was like a drug user who had, like, not been around for him as much, but he still loves. And then who, yeah, like, then was like, put into a coma by this treatment. And like, you know, and then the company was like, well, just for you. We'll pay for her treatment, you know, that we did for this thing that we did to her. Like, he just, like his whole life is just like, you know, essentially kind of like having any bit of stability pulled away. So then to have also his, like, grand theory that, like, someone else has been hurting the planet, ripped away and to be like, no, this is all on you still. Yeah, like, that's. It's tough. It's a tough moment.

[E]

And the moment when we find out too, that he's sort of a serial.

[A]

Killer, that was the most surprising thing to me.

[E]

And that to me is what makes the character the hardest to like. Because if he had, I guess, chosen just her and then been right about it, it's a little easier to be on his side than he's. Both of them have carved a path of destruction and death through this movie.

[C]

And she even has that moment right, where she's like, how many were Andromedans? It's like two. And she's like, okay, so you've killed a bunch of people.

[B]

And we don't really know much about his methodology of how he determined who was an Andromedan.

[C]

Right.

[B]

He was kind of just abducting random people. Yes, yes.

[C]

And keeping their parts in jars. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, I think the thing about, like, it's humanity's fault. Like, I think the obvious and with the bees and everything, the obvious read here would be like, oh, it's about the environment, it's about climate change. And I think that's definitely in there. But I think there's something else that's almost darker and sort of more philosophical, you know, that is really uncharitable to like, not just like a certain faction of, let's say, Americans or whatever. Political. A political side of things. It's really uncharitable to everybody. And that's another reason why it's sort of surprising if you zoom out that like this movie has found this kind of like mainstream Oscar friendly acclaim. Because, like, that's a really despairing sentiment in any year, in this year. It's like especially bleak.

[C]

Right. Like that, like. Right. What she says is basically there's something fundamentally sick about humanity. Like it is like, like, like just soul deep. Right.

[B]

An original sin that cannot be cured, essentially. We tried and it just can't be. Yeah.

[C]

You're like, you, you. You might as well just scrap it and start over.

[E]

And the final sequence plays that out because everybody's dead except for the animals. Get to live, right?

[C]

Yep.

[E]

So the Earth gets to continue, but without us.

[A]

I do think there is something kind of like beautiful and unifying about the fact that. That all of humanity is wiped out at the same time.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I love how different all of the, you know, moments of people, you know, mass death, the mass death moment. You've got, you know, rich people on a yacht. We've got factory workers, we've got a couple having sex. We've got a classroom of children. All different countries, all around the world. We're all. There is a connection, right.

[C]

We all get unplugged at the same time.

[B]

And, and if we don't work to save the planet, like, we're it. You know, it'll affect. It's going to affect rich people, it's gonna affect poor people. I mean, there will be obviously economic differences in that, but, like. Yeah, but ultimately we are headed in the same direction.

[C]

So, like, the, the kind of counterbalance of that, though is like dawn, right. Like, the cousin who as far as we know, is just like this sweet guy who has been pulled and is like, not as oblivious as like, I think he's initially presented as just kind of like this. This patsy who is getting pushed around by his cousin. And then like, in that really, just like, just devastating scene where he dies, like, he, you know, makes it clear he knows, he does know what's going on and that he's like, I'm doing this because I love Teddy. He's like the only person in my life and like, without him, I have nothing. Like, this is obviously going in a direction where like, nothing. Like, I, like, Teddy is not going to be around anymore. So, like, just tell him I love him. Like, it's so sad. But you're like, this character is like, you know, effectively blameless in this, like, compared to everyone else we meet. And nevertheless he suffers terribly and dies.

[B]

It's made clear in the movie. Right. That he didn't know about the previous people. Right.

[C]

It's unclear.

[B]

I don't know because I think when he's. When he's doing the electrical electroshock thing on Emma Stone and he says it's not like the others. He says, others. So I think that this is maybe the first one that he's been brought in on.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Which makes it even more tragic because he doesn't know that, like, he thinks he's just like helping his cousin with this kind of crazy thing, which, you know, is a violent thing. But. But he does. He doesn't know what, What's. What's preceded it, you know?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

He is kind of blameless. And so what does he represent in that? I. I don't know, but that scene was shocking.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I did not see. That was the one aspect of the movie I did not see coming at all. And again, very bleak. And I'm surprised that the academy was like, sure. And not wicked.

[C]

The one thing they have in common, notable knitwear. Both movies.

[B]

Oh, that's true.

[C]

You know, someone, Rebecca co worker, pointed out that the sex cardigan in Wicked for good is basically the alien knitwear at the end. So, you know, like, why, what are.

[B]

They telling us about Elphaba?

[C]

Yeah. And also I'm just like, who is going to be bold and wear chunky knitwear to the Oscars? This is the year.

[E]

The way that that final scene or those few shots sort of create a whole world is really wonderful.

[B]

Yeah. And that's, I think in some ways of looking at it like the weirdest that Lanthimos has gotten. Like, that's the most fun, far flung and that's like full sci fi, like invented world. I mean, I guess poor things is kind of that a little bit. But like. But yeah, I think to see the movie like go that far into this kind of ridiculous abstraction, I think was unexpected and fun.

[C]

Yeah. Though, I mean, the expression on her face after she, you know, when she's about to pop the bubble, it is like a truly kind of like mournful, grief stricken, conflicting.

[A]

Her hand has been forced.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And yeah, there is even if it is sort of. Yes. The equivalent of being like, we're going to flush this fish down the toilet. Like, like the kind of like the way it happens, just like the pop. Like the ease of still is something that clearly she. She is distressed by.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of. There are a lot of layers to the movie which I think if you like read like a little synopsis of it, it would seem pretty obvious, like, oh, it's a satire of blank. But I think, yeah, it does add a lot of complicating kind of emotion and stuff like that. And the more that we talk about it, the more that, you know, rewatching it, I was like, I really like this movie. And yet when I was doing my best movies of the year list, it didn't even pop into my head as a pop. So why is that? Like, it's a movie I really respect and yet I'm not thrilled that it got Academy Award nominations. I mean, maybe for the score or something like that, but the, you know, the best actress, whatever. Why is it that I have this kind of block about. Maybe it's. Maybe it's just Begonia. Maybe it's his movies in general where like I appreciate them but. But they don't sort of sink that extra layer in for whatever reason.

[C]

Yeah. Like, I loved the favorite. Like, I really, I think the favorite is like just a fully incredible movie. I have loved some of his other movies. I don't know, I think that this one, maybe it is that feeling of, like, you feel like you're seeing very talented people do something you are at least somewhat familiar with, you know, And I think, I don't know, maybe you start to take people for granted in that way. Like, you know, even, like, Emma Stone, like we've pointed out, there was a sense of just like, oh, she's gonna take a slot for this. But, like, Emma Stone is doing, like, really interesting work. She's doing interesting work as a producer. She's doing interesting work. Like, she clearly has, like, she is seeking out, like, she has, like, she's working with Lanthimos because he has a singular voice that she really enjoys. And she, like, likes getting kind of, like, doing strange and, like, kind of daring roles. I mean, these are all things that you think she'd be rewarded for. But it does feel like we've seen.

[A]

It well, and it's been so timeline wise, so there's a big gap between the favorite and poor things. And then we've had three movies within the span of two years.

[B]

And she spoke. Stone has spoken about how Bella Baxter, her character in Poor Things, which was such, like, a physical transformation, and, you know, it required a lot of technical work that, like, it's really sat in her and she kind of, like, had a really hard time, like, saying goodbye to the character. And I could see if you're in that sort of mind space, you know, headspace being like, oh, the same guy wants me to do two more movies with him. Sure. Like, it'll be kind of like, Bella's still around, or I'm still sort of in some vague version of that world, so it does make sense. And then, you know, this, like, blotted filmmaker who you work well with is like, hey, do you want to play hey? By the way, it's secretly an alien. Like, that's fun. Why would you say no to that?

[C]

They're gonna shave your head. It's gonna be. Yeah, Yeah. I think it's just, like, maybe it's just one of those things where you're like, we've seen other movies that we've loved more from this specific combination of people even. And then it becomes easier to kind of take this one for granted.

[D]

David.

[F]

Yes.

[E]

Happy New Year.

[C]

Yay.

[F]

That was a little party horn.

[D]

Yeah, it's February, but it's still the new year. I mean, I liked it. I'm not gonna call it out. But with the new year comes a kind of time for reflection.

[B]

Right.

[D]

You think about the past year, you think about your aspirations for the year to come, and you Start to think about your finances. Jump scare.

[F]

It's true. But look, paying off debt, building an emergency fund, saving for something major like buying a home or college or, you know, retirement stuff like plan to do.

[D]

All three of those in 2026.

[F]

You go back to school.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And retire Dangerfield style. And buy a house.

[F]

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[D]

And wait a second, wait a second.

[F]

Because the story doesn't end there.

[B]

What?

[F]

You can also get 50% off your monarch subscription with code check.

[D]

Well, that's a lovely little deal.

[F]

It's a tiny bit of savings.

[D]

That's a tiny bit of savings, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

Monarch, you know, unlike other personal finance apps, that's built to make you proactive, right. Not just reactive. So it's more for planning, less for like, hey, here's what you got. Here's what you want.

[C]

Help.

[F]

Monarch can help you figure it out.

[D]

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[F]

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[D]

Skull crawlers, drowned vipers, Muto. One eye.

[F]

Remember Muto?

[D]

There were a couple mutos.

[E]

There were two.

[D]

There was a male Mudo and a lady. Muto. Not to be binary.

[F]

The movie was sometimes the bees and the birds.

[D]

Tiamat, the Scar King.

[F]

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[D]

Suco. He was the little Kong baby.

[B]

It's funny, like in terms of the Emma Stone producing things, like, I remember it was, it was at Sundance a couple years ago where before, like a lot of the bigger like or cooler movies there, there was this logo for like Peachtree Films or whatever. And I was like, what is that company? It, it seems to have arrived like overnight and all Of a sudden it's behind like all of the coolest movies here.

[A]

When I saw the TV Glow was exactly so cool.

[B]

That's the year it was. Exactly. Yeah. And. And there's a part of me, though, that's like, okay, so she's producing all this really interesting, sometimes challenging stuff like TV Glow and a real pain. Right. So why isn't she in some of this stuff? I don't know.

[C]

I don't know. I mean, you know, like, there's this part of me wants to be like, sure, she's using her movie stardom to get these things made. That's great. She doesn't need to be in all of them if she can just get them made. But like, yeah, I know. I would like to see her.

[A]

I respect that she's not in those movies. I think of like the worst version of that is like Brad Pitt in 12 Years a Slave where.

[B]

I mean, where he solved slavery.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

But I'm just like, okay, you know, it's great that you got this movie made, but you know, you being in it, like rolling my eyes, especially at that. The specific part, at that point in the film. I'm rolling my eyes a bit.

[B]

Yeah. It was a total distraction. And it could have been like some other great, lesser known actor who would have sold it. Yeah, no, that's. That's a good point. That, that you could run the risk of it becoming vanity stuff. Yeah, I don't think that she would do that. But like, it's. It. If she's all of a sudden just like only producing stuff that has a great lead role for a woman between 35 and 45, like, that might be a little funny. Yeah.

[A]

I think that there. I don't know how intentional it is, but there is some weird stuff going on in Begonia in terms of the actors ages versus the character's ages.

[C]

They even make a joke of it, right. Where he's like, would you believe this is a 45 year?

[A]

And she's like, so she's playing like 10 years older. Jesse Plemons is playing Alicia Silverstone's child. But I don't think they're at quite work.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

And then Stavi, who is I guess a little younger than me or the same age, so like mid-30s, is playing the babysitter of Jesse Plemons.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So it's like there's a lot of.

[B]

That's true, but as long as they kind of acknowledge it, you know, I guess it. Yeah. What do we think about Stavi being so. He's like what? Podcaster. Right. He was. He. He's kind of with the.

[C]

I will say this. Jesse Plemons is a year older than Stevie. So. Wait. Yes. So. So, yes. If you think about the. The kind of gap there too hard.

[A]

Oh, okay. This makes. Jesse Plemons is 37. I guess because Kirsten Dunst is older than him, I assumed they were closer.

[B]

Yeah. She's a cradle robbery.

[A]

I love them as a couple. I love how supportive she is of her man on Instagram.

[B]

I think it's so romantic to get your first nominations together for the same movie. So nice. And that. And for that one great scene. I mean, that's really what they both got nominated for, is that amazing dance scene. But the Stavi of it all. I saw some people say that because Lanthimos cast him. So he's what, kind of a dirtbag lefty? Kind of. But, like, that's his recording.

[C]

Caster comedian.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Like.

[B]

But, like, controversial.

[C]

At least he was less so than other people also have emerged from that world. Yeah.

[B]

I just saw some people online which, like, whatever, saying that, like, Lanthimos casting him is a statement of Lanthimos politics. That he's kind of like an edgelord or whatever, blah, blah, blah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if I buy that.

[C]

I don't see that.

[A]

No, I don't see that. No. I think they're both Greek guys. And Stavi has a very interesting look.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's good in it.

[C]

I like Stabby in it. Yeah. At that New York premiere, Yorgos was like. Let me. I think, said something to the effect of, like, let me put the extra, like, extra Greek on it when pronouncing his name. So, yes, there is.

[B]

We'll have to cast John Stamos next. Another Greek.

[A]

And we had Stavi on Blank check. He was talking about working with Yorgos. And, like, they both have this thing in common where they both have, like, an art world side to them, but they also are bros. Like, Yorgos was a professional basketball player in the Euro League.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which is really. You should look up his, like, basketball player. I don't know. You call him Headshots or whatever, but.

[B]

I'm like, his glossies.

[F]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

He had a lot more hair back in the day, but, yeah, apparently he's, like, super. He's super into basketball still, which I think is really funny because that doesn't really come first.

[B]

What if he makes a basketball movie? That would be funny.

[A]

He should.

[B]

Yeah, he should. He should remake the air up there.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

No, no one should remake that.

[E]

So Emma Stone's only announced upcoming films are a Cruella picture.

[C]

Okay.

[E]

And another untitled movie. Is this just her trying? Is she just taking a break or.

[B]

She has kids, right? Young kids or at least one. One. I don't know. That's a good. I mean, I could imagine that after she won that second Oscar and she has another Cruella, you know, movie coming out, those two things are like pretty. Like you're pretty exposed at that point like that she might want to kind of like. Kind of like Lawrence did in a less extreme way, like retreat a little bit to kind of make people miss you. You know, the fact that she had like poor things kinds of kindness. This. I think Cruella was somewhere in there too.

[A]

And then she also had the curse.

[B]

Right, of course. Which she's great in.

[A]

Yeah. Well, she and Yorgos do have another collaboration coming up this weekend. They did a Squarespace commercial for the Super Bowl.

[B]

Oh, did they really?

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Gotta pay the bills, I guess. Uh huh.

[A]

And yeah, Squarespace is definitely. They've already released a poster for it and it's like a new project from Emma St. And yor goes lanthimos.

[C]

And it's like.

[A]

Okay, well, I think we've kind of hit a logical endpoint.

[B]

Well, and if you get paid, you know, super bowl money, commercial salary, like, you don't need to work for a while, I guess. Did you see the Jurassic park one?

[A]

Oh my God. What is going on with their faces?

[B]

It's really sacrilegious. It's some mix of like they like DH them. Right?

[A]

Like, but I don't even. I wonder if Sam Neill and Jeff Goldblum, like, were there at all. They look like totally AI generated.

[B]

It's really.

[C]

This is sinister directed by Taika ytt. Did I make that up?

[A]

Yes, it is. Yeah. Very Laura Derm.

[B]

Where like they're getting all these. I mean, I know like, you know, Ridley Scott made the Apple commercial all the years ago, but like, but like this like whole thing, like a Yorgos ad, a Taika ad, like that's. We're getting really cynical, right? Like, that's. I don't like that.

[C]

I just get to be like, oh, this is an autorist commercial. Like feels I go, yeah. I mean, yes. Anderson has done some ads though.

[B]

Remember?

[C]

Was it like.

[B]

Right, well, he did a whole short film that was an ad. Right.

[A]

Wes Anderson did like a whole bunch of Amex.

[C]

Amex, that's it. Yeah.

[A]

Spike Jones did the Ben Stiller and Benson Boone starring a Super bowl ad this year for, like, Instacart.

[E]

I don't know, because there's, like, a difference between doing an ad for, like, a lifestyle, like a perfume ad, where you basically just get to do whatever you want and then just, you know, put a thing at the end and doing something for, like, DraftKings.

[C]

I feel like it feels weirder also for it to be, like, part of how they tout the ad, you know, like, yeah, it's.

[B]

Yeah, it's coming soon, right?

[C]

This new ad commercial.

[A]

Major filmmakers have always done commercials. It's just been kind of like a dirty little secret that no one talks about. Like, especially if you're not someone who's like, Chris Nolan level. How do you make money in between projects?

[C]

You.

[A]

You do commercials. So a lot of these guys have maintained their careers while doing these sorts of spots under the radar. I guess now with, like, the increasing, like, we no longer have this Gen X attitude where we're against selling out, it's not as shameful anymore to put your name on something. Squarespace in particular. Like, last year, their super bowl ad was just a ripoff of Banshees of an Asheron starring Barry Keoghan. I don't know if Martin McDonagh directed it, but. And then they had. The year before that, there was, like, a Scorsese ad that they did that he directed and starred in.

[B]

Okay, so this is, like, a thing.

[A]

So this is a thing that Squarespace has been doing. But, yeah, the. I guess they're being a lot more filmmaker forward in general with advertising now, which is.

[B]

I always wondered, like, when Thin Red Line came out in 1998, that was, like, Terrence Malick's first film in, like, was it 20 years at that point? And then, like, he didn't work again for a while. Then he made a bunch of movies kind of in short succession, and now, you know, whatever. But I was just like, how did he make his money? Because he wasn't, like, teaching at University of Texas. He wasn't, like, on any sort of speaking circuit. I wonder if Terrence Malick was secretly, like, directing McDonald's ads or something.

[A]

He's had commercial representation for a while. I mean, the thing. I don't know if he was directing stuff in that period, but it is kind of crazy that after Tree of Life came out, it seemed like every commercial, especially for fashion brands, were just Malek ripoffs. So, Terry, get in there. I think he did a Nike spot kind of recently or within the past 10 years, and it's like, okay, well, yeah.

[E]

Jonathan Glaser has done a ton of ads.

[A]

Glazer, Jones, like John the Glazer, Spike Jonze, Ridley Scott, David Fincher. Those guys all kind of started in that world and then made the transition.

[C]

To music videos also. Yeah. And then.

[B]

And there's no real music video pipeline in the same way. I mean, there are some music video directors who kind of like, break into feature now. But, like, it's just. There's not. It's not.

[C]

Do you remember, did you ever have those collections of. I think Palm released them.

[A]

The directors there was, like, Chris Cunningham, David Finch.

[E]

Those are so important to my.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[E]

Like, to my becoming a film. That's like how I discovered Spike Jones.

[C]

And then got into huge adaptations, video work.

[B]

And then it was like, video, like.

[C]

Of it, or it was DVDs. I've collected, like, the music videos.

[E]

They're called the Director series.

[B]

Oh, that's cool.

[C]

Yeah, they were formative for me. And also they were, like, very important to try and have on your shelf.

[E]

You know, really beautifully designed undergrad faces.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Very distinctive. Yeah.

[B]

Hype Williams in there. Remember Hype Williams?

[C]

No, he was. They were a little racist. Yeah. So in terms of their preferences, a.

[B]

Lot of the Hype Williams videos were just the same video, just with different. Different people in them.

[C]

Yeah, no, they were a really interesting run of. Yeah, yeah. So.

[B]

So we're going to cover the Lanthimos ad on next week's episode.

[C]

Right. That's gonna be the entirety. We're gonna do frame by frame. That's gonna be a deep dive.

[B]

Before we close out, like, do we think that Begonia has a chance of winning any of these things? No. Right. I don't think so.

[C]

Yeah. I can't see a particular category which it seems like it could win.

[B]

And do we think that is Lanth? I mean, Lanthimos has been nominated, you know, for. Heavily nominated for three films now, received two other nominations in the past, has not won anything. Is he going to be one of those perennially appreciated but not rewarded kind of filmmakers? Because, like, I feel like his movies, you know, the favorite, did win a big award. Obviously, Poor Things won several. But, like, I don't know if he himself, as a writer or director, will, like, get himself across the finish line. I don't know.

[C]

Yeah. I feel like it will depend on the project. Like, if he does another project like the favorite, that feels both like him, but also slightly friendlier, you know, that has, like. I can see that happening. But, yeah, I don't know. It's funny because he is like undeniably, like seen as this distinctive directorial voice. Right. But like not necessarily in a way that makes them.

[A]

I wonder if he ends up going the Wes Anderson route where he does a short film and there you go. And then.

[C]

Because that's how he wins.

[B]

Yeah, I mean that's. Yeah, that that could be. I mean, I think that there are plenty of examples in the past of like very distinct directors with a particular kind of style and cadence. You know, not winning. Like Tarantino has never best director. Scorsese didn't win it until the Departed.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, Malick has not won. You know, like, there are plenty of idiosyncratic directors who have won in the past, but I think for the most part it tends to trend a little bit more like populist, you know, sort of accessible filmmaking, I guess Sean Dirk or Sean Baker rather maybe complicates that a little bit. But he's an outlier.

[E]

Richard, before we go, Jacuz.

[B]

Uh oh. Uh oh. I'm in trouble.

[E]

I believe you to be an Andromedan.

[B]

Oh.

[E]

Because this morning I like to read your reviews before. Thank you. Before we come on. And so I searched for both of you. I guess neither of you actually did. Right.

[B]

I didn't have a job when this.

[C]

Movie came out and my coworker Bill Guh was the one who reviewed this for us at Venice.

[E]

Well, when I went to search Richard Lawson Begonia, I came upon the famous site findarticles.com oh, love it.

[B]

You know where a great place to find articles is?

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Findarticles.com found article.

[E]

Your byline. A piece whose title spoils the movie. So I won't.

[B]

It fully spoils the movie.

[E]

Say that right now, but there's your byline. And it goes to a description that roughly fits your profile. You know, it says you're a culture critic who lives in New York.

[B]

That's right.

[E]

But it's not a picture of you.

[B]

It's certainly not. I don't think it's a picture of anyone. I think that's a made up picture. It also says that I'm an essayist known. Which. Known for his writing on film, media and contemporary society. Ooh. So la di da me fake me. Yeah. Well, so unfortunately I am an Andromeda and I'm gonna kill you all right now. No. So this is AI, right? This is like just like an AI fake website that's created to like. So when all the. The many thousands of people who are searching for me, the real me, they're getting directed this way instead. Yeah, I don't like that. That would do of one.

[C]

I looked.

[B]

We got to get.

[C]

You just got to get me.

[B]

That's great.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it feels wonderful for them to just be funneling off your reputation.

[E]

But there does some seems something I don't know appropriate for this movie fully.

[B]

That some alien other me has like written about this movie. I looked up Richard Lawson's byline on that on the wonderful website findarticles.com and I write a lot about Nintendo Switch. I wrote glowingly about the new. What is it called A skin for Fortnite of Chapel Roan.

[C]

Okay, okay.

[B]

I think her title was like festival God or something like that. And that's the character she is.

[E]

I think she's coming to Fortnite festival.

[B]

Oh, oh, oh, oh. I see how you unclear on this. I wrote about it. I want to find the exact thing here because my opening is really great. In my piece dated February 4th at 1:05am So I keep burning the midnight oil. Strange hours I swore I'd never spend on a purely cosmetic item in a free to play game. I'm swearing you guys have heard those things.

[C]

We've said it many times trois before.

[B]

Then Chapel Roan arrived in Fortnite and my resolve evaporated faster than a victory crown in storm circle five. We all understand what that means, right? Her icon release isn't just another crossover. It's the rare drop that nails artistry, identity and in game utility so well that even a hardline no spender like me finally tapped the V bucks button. That's how I write.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That's how I write.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

You often said that to its credit. Yeah.

[E]

Does know you're gay?

[B]

I don't tap the V bucks button. It's true. I haven't tapped one of those since high school. Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks other me. Andromeda me. And thank you for bringing it to my attention. It's now my favorite website. This episode has been brought to you by findarticles.com if you need to find an article, try find articles. Next week we're going to be heading to what is it, Switzerland?

[C]

I actually where does it.

[B]

Is it Austria?

[C]

That is a good place.

[B]

It's Switzerland.

[C]

It seems.

[B]

Yeah. We're talking of course about sinners which takes place. No, we're talking about twist.

[C]

You know that reveal.

[B]

We're talking about Frankenstein speaking of Christoph Waltz. So please give that a watch and join us back here next week.

[A]

Critical darlings is a blank check. Production in association with Vulture Hosted by Alison Wilmore and Richard Lawson Produced by Benjamin Frisch Executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz Video production and distribution by Ann Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth and Jennifer Jahn.