Critical Darlings: Hamnet And The History Of Oscar Villains with David Sims

Summary

Podcast Summary: Blank Check – Critical Darlings: "Hamnet and the History of Oscar Villains"

Podcast: Blank Check with Griffin & David / Blank Check Productions
Episode: Critical Darlings: Hamnet And The History Of Oscar Villains with David Sims
Date: January 15, 2026
Guests: Richard Lawson, Alison Wilmore, David Ehrlich, Marie, Ben (Producer)

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Overview

This episode, a co-production with Vulture’s "Critical Darlings," dives deep into the complexities of awards season, focusing on the Oscar race, the perennial role of “Oscar villains,” and most centrally, a critical discussion of Chloe Zhao’s Oscar hopeful "Hamnet." The hosts unpack the current state of the Golden Globes, the transformation and relevance of awards bodies, the concept of "Oscar villainy," and scrutinize whether "Hamnet" fits that infamous mold this year.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Golden Globes Post-Mortem & Awards Show Evolution

• Hosts critique the latest Golden Globes telecast:
  • Grievances about new "box office" awards and their irrelevance ([01:41]), and the controversial PolyMarket betting feature, which “spoils” awards results and brings a dystopian edge ([02:52], [03:02]).
  • Ongoing struggles for legitimacy after HFPA scandals and ownership changes ([05:16], [05:33], [06:22]).
  • Debates on genre splitting (Comedy/Musical vs. Drama), the blurring of these lines, and how comedic works rarely get fair play ([15:16]–[15:57]).
• Awards as "career moves" and PR moment:

  “What they should say… is, 'This is great for my career.'” – David Ehrlich ([07:26])

2. Are the Globes “Real”?

• The show’s credibility, transparency, and relationship to the Oscars is deeply questioned.
  • Globes’ recent reforms cited, but the panel doubts whether the voting body’s makeup or standards have meaningfully improved ([05:38]–[06:45]).
  • Globes viewed as essentially a PR stepping stone to Oscar consideration—especially because speeches land during Oscar nomination voting ([07:45]).

3. Awards Categories and Industry Trends

• Inclusion of Podcast Awards:
  • General skepticism about the new podcast awards. The consensus is they’re often a pay-to-play affair for less prestigious aims, driven more by industry trends and “celebrity podcast” bias than content ([11:02]).
  • Joke about the inherent awkwardness and lack of legitimacy: “Just a way to get money out of podcasts.” – David Ehrlich ([11:04])
• Genre designation gets scrutinized:
  • Why comedies so rarely compete as “real” comedies ([16:11]).

4. The "Oscar Villain" Phenomenon

• Definition & Notable Cases:

  • “Oscar villain” is the film widely expected to take Best Picture against media/fan critical consensus or personal favorites.
  • Historic examples: Crash, Green Book, Shakespeare in Love, Three Billboards, 1917 ([26:19]).
  • Social media and the "vibes" economy now shape villain narratives more than ever ([25:56]).
  • Sometimes, the villain is simply the “boring but safe” choice, not the worst film.

  "I feel like the Oscar villain is something where the public and the media is convinced that a film is going to win and spoil the narrative that we like." – Alison Wilmore ([21:42])

• "Hamnet" as Current Oscar Villain:

  • Hosts debate if "Hamnet" is this year's Oscar villain by default, mainly due to its presumed front-runner status despite divided industry and critical opinion.
  • The film presents as a prestige, awards-friendly period drama, and its emergence in the race is seen as both classic and regressive ([57:01]).

5. In-Depth: "Hamnet"

Plot, Themes, and Artistic Merits

• Structural criticism:
  • The film's chronological approach undermines the emotional impact, particularly Hamnet’s point of view and the focus on grief ([29:07], [32:12]).
• Character depth:
  • Jessie Buckley praised for a fierce, raw performance as Agnes (Anne Hathaway), but the narrative is skewed, with insufficient insight into the title character of Hamnet ([31:46]).
  • Debate over emotional engagement: many find the “suffering” unrelenting and hard to connect with ([28:17], [34:32]).
• Reinventing Shakespeare:
  • The hosts discuss the end of the film, where Agnes experiences "Hamlet" as a play—whether this is emotionally moving, dramatically effective, or just a muddle of historical reference ([33:01]–[36:11]).
  • The logic and historical basis of equating the creation of "Hamlet" with Shakespeare’s grief over Hamnet’s death is questioned, but Mescal's performance as Shakespeare is praised ([42:06], [42:35]).
• On Chloe Zhao’s direction:
  • Acknowledged for her strength in depicting tactile, natural worlds ([54:59]).
  • Noted for an “Earth mama” persona that both attracts admiration and, occasionally, critical suspicion—especially given her privileged background ([52:52], [54:01]).

"Any Shakespeare movie has to be a fantasy. And this is like this sort of tragic, sad fantasy of his family. 'Shakespeare in Love' is this, like, swoony romantic fantasy..." – David Ehrlich ([55:27])

Why "Hamnet?" Why Now?

• Hamnet is "classy," "prestigious," but also perhaps "airless," less vital than its competitors—offering a traditional path to Oscar glory that doesn’t match industry progress ([57:15], [58:25]).
• Its success is partially attributed to the emotional catharsis of the film’s ending, not necessarily its consistent quality ([56:08]).
• Discussion of how Oscar vehicles rooted in a woman’s suffering have evolved, but “Hamnet” gives almost as much weight to Shakespeare’s grief, perhaps increasing Academy appeal ([59:37]).

6. Predictions, Industry Context, & Oscar Race Speculation

• Hamnet’s awards path:
  • Jessie Buckley is an actress front-runner. Paul Mescal and technical categories also possible.
  • Chloe Zhao, despite critical prestige, appears locked out of the Director conversation this year ([64:00]–[65:23]).
• Challenges for other contenders:
  • The role of international films and genre movies (like Sinners, Marty Supreme, the Secret Agent) and how Oscar trends shift away from American-centric narratives ([65:23]–[66:18]).
• Vibes-driven momentum:
  • “It’s all vibes,” Alison Wilmore notes, and the unpredictability of social media-based Oscar forecasting is repeatedly stressed ([66:35], [70:56]).
• Surprise picks & snubs:
  • Ariana Grande’s acting nom is suggested as a possible surprise snub ([69:20]).
  • Blue Moon as a fringe Best Picture dark horse ([70:06]).
  • Sinners potentially losing steam—risk of technical category wins but little major recognition ([67:28]–[68:53]).

7. Memorable Awards Season Oddities

• Astra Awards cited for gimmicky canine acting win ([74:09]).
• The Golden Tomato Awards and AARP "Best Movie for Grown-Ups" celebrated for being quirky but fun metrics of acclaim ([74:45]–[76:09]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Golden Globes' new betting features:

  “It felt close to like Pan-Am Hunger Games... it was a little dystopian.” – Richard Lawson ([02:52])

• On what Globes speeches are really for:

  “This is great for my career... This is a great chance for me to train myself on a speech or whatever.” – David Ehrlich ([07:36])

• On the role of ‘Oscar Villain’:

  “I feel like the Oscar villain is something where the public and media is convinced this film is going to win and spoil the narrative that we really like...” – Alison Wilmore ([21:42])

• On "Hamnet"’s narrative problem:

  “To be like, oh by the way, this is a movie about grief but we're gonna start by being much more about... this marriage. It's a huge problem.” – Alison Wilmore ([32:35])

• On Chloe Zhao’s evolving reception:

  “People feel really divided on her for ways... maybe earned, in other ways are just like cloaked misogyny or, like, racism.” – Alison Wilmore ([52:06]) “She's kind of an earth mama vibe.” – David Ehrlich ([52:44])

• Summing up “Hamnet”’s Oscar fortunes:

  “Hamnet is more the kind of Oscar winner that... defined by big acting, crying, suffering, weighty ideas, death, loss.” – David Ehrlich ([57:01])

• The unpredictability of predictions:

  “All will be revealed next week...” – Richard Lawson ([76:51])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Golden Globes Recap & Critique: [00:26]–[10:30]
• Legitimacy & Realness of Awards Shows: [03:30]–[07:36]
• Oscar Villain Deep Dive: [20:14]–[27:16]
• "Hamnet" as Oscar Villain / Detailed Review: [28:04]–[54:01]
• On Chloe Zhao & Directorial Perceptions: [52:06]–[55:27]
• Best/Worst Oscar Precedents & Parallels: [26:19]–[26:58], [55:27]–[57:01]
• Oscar Predictions & Industry Trends: [64:00]–[70:00]
• Awards Season Oddities: [74:09]–[76:09]

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Conclusion

The episode stands as a lively, multi-faceted conversation about the shifting landscape of awards season and the narratives that swirl around Oscar “villains.” With "Hamnet" under the microscope, the hosts weigh its artistic achievements and shortcomings, unpack biases around prestige cinema, and dissect what makes a film "deserving" or "resented" at the Oscars. Predictions for surprises, snubs, and the broader evolution of major awards shows round out a funny, learned, irreverent episode—perfect for film fans tracking every twist on the road to Oscar night.

Transcript

[Alison Wilmore]

Welcome to Critical Darlings, a conversation about the awards season. Conversation. One contender at a time. Please welcome to the stage your hosts, Richard Lawson and Alison Wilmore.

[Richard Lawson]

Thank you, Marie. Thank you. Did you guys watch the Golden Globes on Sunday? I assume we all did, right?

[Alison Wilmore]

Sure did.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought they did pretty. They were pretty good. I don't know. Like, Nikki Glazer's fun, right?

[Alison Wilmore]

I do really like her. Yeah. I feel like they need her so desperately to, like, preserve whatever energy is left from those awards. They need to get rid of the TV awards.

[David Ehrlich]

They need to get rid of the TV awards. This is exactly my take. You're watching Emmy speeches from four months ago. Noah Wylie, bless his sweetheart, is like, I'm so humbled. I'm like, no, you're not.

[Richard Lawson]

Not anym.

[Alison Wilmore]

Got humbled.

[David Ehrlich]

Like, I buy you being humbled the first time, like, when you won the Emmy.

[Richard Lawson]

I like humbling all the adolescence. People go up on stage and like, all right, what do I say this time? This is my eighth speech for this.

[David Ehrlich]

I was saying this to my wife. I was like, I swear, they won these last year. I like, on a Bible. They won the Golden Globe last year.

[Ben]

Please.

[Alison Wilmore]

I do enjoy the visual of Jack Thorne and Stephen Graham standing next to each other. Like, when they hugged and he was like. It was like Gandalf and hobby, like visuals. I do really like that Stephen Graham.

[David Ehrlich]

Was acting like an Usher. He was like. He was like, yeah, I've done this. All right. It's you this time. You stand giving everyone their marching orders. They have to stop doing tv, period. Keep the podcast thing. That's saucy.

[Richard Lawson]

Sure.

[David Ehrlich]

Lose the box office thing. That's like, really? They gotta get rid of that right away. That thing is really embarrassing for them.

[Marie]

So this is my first Golden Globes.

[Alison Wilmore]

How did you feel?

[Marie]

Well, I was a little confused because some things, I had no idea what was normal. So please tell me the box office award is new.

[David Ehrlich]

It's its third year.

[Marie]

And then the. The thing that was very confusing was the poly market and the.

[Alison Wilmore]

That is new.

[Richard Lawson]

That was my idea.

[David Ehrlich]

Well, they used to do that in the 40s. There'd be a guy with a bow tie who would be like, ah, in the lead right now.

[Richard Lawson]

Because the Golden Globes used to be at Churchill Downs.

[Alison Wilmore]

Right, Right. And then everyone would have a race. It was exciting. It's more athletic than normally we associate with acting awards, but I think it was good for fitness.

[David Ehrlich]

You know, that is new. And hopefully that was a one off.

[Alison Wilmore]

You know, I also like, that in combination with, like, Mark Malkin's, like, weird kind of like plummy V where it sounds like he's kind of talking around a mouthful of something. I don't know why they did. I do know why. It was like, corporate synergy, the live kind of commentating, but, like, I hated that. But also that when in, like, a combination with him being like, and here are the Poly Market, you know, like, odds for the best podcast award. You're like, what is this?

[Richard Lawson]

It felt close to like Pan Am Hunger Games. Like, it was.

[Alison Wilmore]

It was.

[Richard Lawson]

It was a little dystopian, but it's also.

[David Ehrlich]

It was.

[Marie]

It spoiled every award that I wasn't like, 96 years.

[David Ehrlich]

Yeah. They're all like, oh, Ricky Gervais is going to win. And I was like, oh, I hadn't thought about it, but okay, I guess Poly Market says so. And they were right.

[Richard Lawson]

Right. Yeah. Yeah. It was like. And I also. I just think so, like, you know, CBS now owned by David Ellison of Skydance. I think he was just like, well, I mean, this is a live event. It should be sports, you know.

[David Ehrlich]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

And. But it's like, I don't think that the people who are going to bet on polymarket are watching the Golden Globes. I mean, am I wrong? Like, I'm sure that crossover. I don't know.

[Alison Wilmore]

I don't. I feel like it's not even like, oh, this is, like, illuminating. I think it was just like, we want to take money from Polymarket. And also we're going to pretend that this introduces, like, this the fact that there's, like, a large conversation about the Globes, you know, and that, like, everyone is out there just being, like, monitoring, like, the little currents of, like. Yeah. Which, you know, makes me want to introduce my rubric. Okay, how real are these awards? I really. A thorny question Award, reality.

[Richard Lawson]

This is the eternal question.

[David Ehrlich]

The Golden Globes, are these specific awards or are we doing all precursor?

[Alison Wilmore]

We have applied it on a, like, so far to one or two other things. But I feel like that is the key question of the Golden Globes. And, like, obviously, from an awards show production perspective, they are very real. Like, they are in a fancy place. Everyone wears gowns and pretty much everyone shows up. Everyone shows up except for people who are like, you know. Yeah. Or like people who are, like, rehearsing a play somewhere or something like that. And, yeah, like, in terms of, like, glitz and in terms of professional looking, aside from the polymarket thing, professional looking, production, it is very real and it.

[Richard Lawson]

Has A distinct identity as opposed to the Oscars. The big difference was it's a dinner. So a lot of times winners would go up on stage, clearly having had a few drinks. Not that they don't drink at the Oscars, by the way, but, you know, the convivial atmosphere of it. But the joke on the Globes for pretty much since its inception was it was the Hollywood Foreign Press Association. It was like anywhere between 70 and 90 people, depending on how you asked, who were all these, like, weird journalists who lived in LA but were writing for foreign outlets who just had the weirdest, most, like, venal taste ever. Like, they could be bribed. They would just want a big celebrity to show up to their awards. So they gave, like, Angelina Joliet Award for the movie the Tourist. Like, they were like, really?

[David Ehrlich]

They only gave her a nomination.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, did she not win?

[David Ehrlich]

I don't think she won. Okay. The nomination is embarrassing enough.

[Alison Wilmore]

Theodora.

[David Ehrlich]

Theodora is the one that was bought and paid for. That was the classic.

[Marie]

I remember there was a big scandal a few years ago, and then they reformed and now it's semi more legitimate, I guess.

[Richard Lawson]

They.

[David Ehrlich]

It's a. It's a larger voting body and I suppose a more diverse one, but also.

[Alison Wilmore]

Like, I don't feel like there's much transparency at all about who makes up that voting body. So it's like, larger. Like. Like. Yeah. One of the criticisms was that these, like, I think it was like, 75%. Like, it was a shockingly small group of people making these decisions. Yeah. That it was, like, really, like, woefully lacking in terms of diversity, yet in addition to the kind of, like, general era of scuzziness. So there was a kind of campaign about, like, against that. There was. The acquisition happened. The Globes are bought by Penske Media also for a while, as part of that deal, the leftover members, original members, were getting paid $75,000 a year for, like, five years. That was a deal. And then after like, a year or two in. And he was like, no, we're not going to do that.

[David Ehrlich]

Right. Try suing us. Yeah.

[Alison Wilmore]

So some of those original members are left. There's a bunch of other ones. We're not really sure who they are, but it's still like a really kind of poorly defined. The idea that these are, like, meaningful from a perspective of, like, these are people we know and trust, or these are people in the industry who have a lot to say about their colleagues. Yes, sure. It's unclear.

[David Ehrlich]

It is.

[Alison Wilmore]

Right.

[David Ehrlich]

Again, if you're Noah Wylie, you're taking an Emmy. You're like, this is from ostensibly my industry peers. Like, that's nice. Oscars are that a critics award is like, okay. Like, you know, the Globes. Of course, everyone is dutifully like, thank you to the Hollywood Foreign Press. Yeah. But no one ever says, like, it just means so much that, like, the august, you know, minds of the Hollywood Foreign Press recognized me. What they should say because there's moments like when Colin Farrell won for Imbruge and a moment I think about all the time he won best actor is they should get up there and be like, this is great for my career. Like, here I am, totally. I'm in a suit. You maybe had forgotten about me for a few years, but everyone's remembering that I gave a nice little performance.

[Richard Lawson]

Thank you.

[David Ehrlich]

And I'm holding a golden thing in my hands.

[Richard Lawson]

You can use it in trailers. Golden Globe winner Colin Farrell, until you get an Oscar nomination. 10 year Oscar nominee Colin Farrell.

[David Ehrlich]

But I mean, like, that's all anyone should really say is like, this is great for my career or this will really help me along in the Oscar race. This is a great chance for me to train myself on a speech or whatever.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, and also the Golden Globes speeches are coming during nominations voting. Yes.

[David Ehrlich]

So everyone's paying attention.

[Richard Lawson]

Someone who is maybe on the bubble, the Academy nominators see them at the Globes and are like, yeah, sure, we'll put them in. You know, I don't know how often that actually works.

[David Ehrlich]

I just look when they died, when the Globes, like, yeah, fully and Right. Didn't happen for a year. Maybe they put out a press release one year maybe.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

Like, I was like, they'll never come back because, like, no one can argue for their existence. And this is ridiculous. And like, surely the SAG awards or the critics, you know, someone else will just kind of be like, what are your new Globes? Same vibe. You know, we're the precursor. There can be one televised precursor that maybe people care about. Yeah. And they all just kind of blew it. And the Globes were just like, we're back. And everyone was like, I'm sure. Fine.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, because there was also this principled stand that a lot because, like, some.

[David Ehrlich]

People are like, I referred to, refused to acknowledge the Golden Globes. Right.

[Richard Lawson]

Because the scuttlebutt about the HFPA was that not only were they shockingly not diverse and sort of these old out of touch weirdo people, they were also lecherous and gropy and like, really bad and so talent hated them, but they would have to be brought in front of them because the globes mattered or whatever. And the publicists hated them because they would have to bring their talent, you know, whatever. Right. And then when this thing happened, the scandal happened, all the talent and publicists were like, great. We don't those assholes ever again. They took the principled stand about it, and then a year later, they were like, oh, never mind. Well, everyone's showing up.

[David Ehrlich]

This needs to be something.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

And this, I guess, can be the something.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. You know, I feel like if the Critics Choice Awards had pulled together, maybe better location and also, like, not serving airplane food, maybe they.

[Richard Lawson]

In an airplane hangar.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. Maybe they could have kept in there more. They even took the date, I think, once.

[Richard Lawson]

Like, the year they tried the date once. My theory about that, though, is the word critics. I agree. I agree.

[David Ehrlich]

They should be called something.

[Richard Lawson]

They should be called.

[David Ehrlich]

Or just like, what's another golden thing? You know, like.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Alison Wilmore]

Well, I would. I mean, at this point, I would like to shout out to my favorite fake awards.

[David Ehrlich]

The golden set words.

[Alison Wilmore]

No, the Astra Awards.

[David Ehrlich]

Oh, what?

[Alison Wilmore]

Do you remember this?

[David Ehrlich]

I mean, I hear about them, but I don't know what they were.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yes. It was started by the Hollywood Critics association, which was the Los Angeles Online Film Critics Association. And then they became the Hollywood Creative alliance because they too understood that the.

[David Ehrlich]

Word critics critics is kind of a nasty word or whatever. It just suggests a more upper crust, you know, not like, for everybody vibe. And whereas the golden. Imagine the whole globe is represented on that statue. All humans live on it.

[Richard Lawson]

It's golden and it's heavy.

[Alison Wilmore]

You can tell when, like, people create.

[David Ehrlich]

They always say, it's heavier than an Oscar.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Alison Wilmore]

And I'm like, you know, these are all the things that go into confirming the. The authenticity of award. Is it heavy? Yeah, you know, is it on tv?

[Richard Lawson]

I think it matters for the, like, the Oscar purposes, but also, like, if the Globes exist, it would be weird for someone's campaign if they just were sort of absent from that ceremony. If they didn't show up, it would.

[David Ehrlich]

Be a little weird.

[Richard Lawson]

Anything. It's happened before where, like, someone has gone on to win an Oscar and they had no presence at the Globes. It was like, Mark Rylance wasn't at the Golden Globes, was he? I don't know, but. I don't know. But, like, I just think if you're investing in the narrative, your narrative of a given season, you gotta go. And that's why they'll always go, wait.

[Alison Wilmore]

So are you a fan of the Podcast Awards?

[David Ehrlich]

No, I think the Podcast Awards, I know there's the iheartradio ones and there's a couple others sort of. I think there needs to be some sort of a winnowing and whatever. Maybe then there can be an actually prestigious prime. But I think it's mostly just like, I shouldn't say this, I'll never win one, but like you just, it's just a way to get money out of podcasts. Right. Because you have to pay to apply to apply.

[Richard Lawson]

And only, I think it was only 20 or so podcasts even submitted.

[David Ehrlich]

Right.

[Richard Lawson]

So the five nominees were like the top 25% of anyone who was eligible.

[David Ehrlich]

The argument for doing it is that podcasting is more important than like live TV at this point. Right. But the Golden Globes don't give out a live TV award, so it's not like it's replacing that. It was kind of smart of them. I'll kind of give it up to them that they're just like someone different but probably famous will take the stage.

[Alison Wilmore]

Well, that's the question. I mean, it's funny to think of a world in which like, NPR's up first won that award.

[David Ehrlich]

And then in the middle of this.

[Alison Wilmore]

They were coming up and being.

[David Ehrlich]

Did they go?

[Alison Wilmore]

I'm sure they were there.

[David Ehrlich]

I hope they went.

[Alison Wilmore]

But I think, I mean, I feel like a thing that they were trying to get at is like celebrity podcast Awards, but they can't call it that. And it is funny that they had.

[David Ehrlich]

Like, you know, it was just funny when people were like, are they gonna nominate all the right wing podcasts? And I'm like, no, they're going to nominate the podcast hosted by famous people, which is fine. That's what the Golden Globes are for. Yeah, I don't, you know, it's always hilarious when, like, Isabel Huppert won. I'm trying to think of like memorable.

[Richard Lawson]

Globes moments because it's Aaron Taylor Johnson winning best supporting actors for Nocturnal Animals.

[David Ehrlich]

Was a weird one, horrendous performance. But like, you know, like, I'm trying to think of like. Cause like, it's like if you want the Globes to exist, you should remember great mom the Globes, which I do not, by the way.

[Richard Lawson]

I mean, I remember Oprah's speech when she won the Cecil B. DeMille Award.

[David Ehrlich]

Sure.

[Richard Lawson]

About time's up. And me too. That was, that was a good moment. But that had nothing to do with the competitive awards.

[Alison Wilmore]

It doesn't make me feel like, they are usually a fun watch, you know they are. Because they're a little. They're a little tipsy. They're a little looser. I don't know.

[David Ehrlich]

The TV stuff stinks.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah, the TV stuff stinks. And it's also like, I don't know, maybe also everyone's a little too careful now. Though I did enjoy that visual of Sean Penn smoking a cigarette in the room. Despite that will definitely cement his.

[David Ehrlich]

Glazer went on Stern. She goes on Stern every year after and reads the jokes. She didn't want it like that were too saucy. And she had a great run of pen stuff. That was just so funny. One of them was from David Spade was like, I think he took the substance wrong. Which I understood. You know, that's really a last year joke. But it was so funny there. God bless him for being like, I'll come to your show, but I won't be interrupting anything else about this.

[Alison Wilmore]

I look like I just got hit by lightning. Yeah, it was good. I enjoyed that.

[Marie]

Can I ask a very basic question?

[Alison Wilmore]

Yes.

[Marie]

I'm sure the people have run the numbers. Is there some statistical correlation or not between being nominated or winning a Globe and then getting nominated or winning an Oscar?

[David Ehrlich]

It's like, high. The Globes exist to predict the Oscars. I don't think they influence the Oscars that heavily. They exist to try to predict them.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. And the backlash against that sort of notion was always like, well, it's these 80 freaks. Like, there's no overlap with the Academy. Right. How could that happen? But it's just like. It's just this whole season is winnowing down the movies and the performances that are at. So I think it's more coincidence in a way that the winners often match up so closely. The great fun of the Globes to Oscars conversion is because the acting categories are split comedy, musical and drama. So you see a year where like, what was it? Chastain won for Zero Dark Thirty in drama, but musical comedy went to Jennifer Lawrence one for Silver Linings Playbook. So they went into that Oscar evening being like, well, there's actually a case to be made for both Chastain winning and Lawrence. And then you see how that shakes out.

[David Ehrlich]

This is my problem sometimes with, say, Hamnet, which I know we're gonna talk about a little bit, winning best drama, where people are like, well, now it's a race. And I'm like, they don't suspend that award if the other award went to the favorite.

[Richard Lawson]

Right, right.

[David Ehrlich]

You know, they're not like, one battle won. And you know what? One battle's so good that we won't be handing out best picture drama now. I don't know why Bowen battle to comedy. The comedy thing is getting so bad because Hollywood gave up on comedies, and so now one battle in Marty supreme are comedies, which I really don't agree with. And people have told me I'm stupid. They say I'm stupid to me in the street.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, I'm sorry. Well, that shouldn't. And I apologize.

[David Ehrlich]

Those are movies with lots of funny things happening. But I'm like, those movies have dramatic engines to me.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Alison Wilmore]

I mean, they are definitely closer to.

[David Ehrlich]

Coming up funnier than Hamnet. Fine. But, you know, Apatow's up there complaining about the Martian. The Martian is funnier than either of those.

[Alison Wilmore]

Absolutely.

[David Ehrlich]

And lighter.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah, yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

The Martian thing, I was like, I get what the sort of gripe about that is, but that is a lighter tone, except I guess the end is.

[David Ehrlich]

More serious, but, like, a bouncy, zippy movie or whatever. And one battle does begin with, like, you know, detention camps, being liberated.

[Alison Wilmore]

Sure. Could we fill out, like, five nominees if we were just like, no, we're gonna do, like, hard comedy?

[David Ehrlich]

We could, but the Globes don't want to because they don't want to nominate the Naked Gun and they don't want to nominate, like, I mean, like, movies like Twin Liss or Ojai that I didn't even like that much, but, like, went over pretty well. Yeah. I'm trying to think, like, other comedy. Yeah. One of them Days was a really good movie this year. I mean, why not nominate?

[Richard Lawson]

You could sort of put Sorry Baby in there.

[David Ehrlich]

Sorry Baby. For sure.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, yeah. Materialist.

[David Ehrlich]

No, wait a second. Ellen McKay.

[Richard Lawson]

Honestly, 15, 20 years ago, she might.

[David Ehrlich]

Have been in there. She might have been in there. Instead, she was in the control booth being like, I think we should have a map of where everyone sits, and you see where they are in a dark room rather than a picture of their face. That's a good idea. Right? And everyone's asleep, and I'm doing an Ellen McKay.

[Marie]

But I know no one else.

[Alison Wilmore]

And everyone loves it. Everyone relates to this.

[David Ehrlich]

I love Ellen McKay.

[Richard Lawson]

You're nuts about it.

[David Ehrlich]

I saw it with you two at the Disney screening room. You two were, like, asleep behind me. I had, like, a little pen. And being like, this is kind of charming.

[Alison Wilmore]

Your eyes were, like, wide and glimmering. Yep.

[Richard Lawson]

You're doing that horn. Every time someone said something was a bit.

[David Ehrlich]

Every time someone Said something that would be tough. People say a lot of things in that movie.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think you didn't get my. When I leaned over to Esther during the IO scene and was like, is this going to be a murder suicide?

[David Ehrlich]

It does. Briefly.

[Alison Wilmore]

I feel like it could go in that direction. Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

There's a look, there's a tension to the scene. I was on the. I was on the edge of my seat.

[Richard Lawson]

Maybe Brooks is finally going real quick.

[David Ehrlich]

Because that kid, whatever his name, I forgot his name.

[Richard Lawson]

Spike Fearne.

[David Ehrlich]

Sure. He is playing it like I'm not in control of my emotions and IO is playing it like, what are you doing.

[Richard Lawson]

With a different. With a change in score, in music? It would be a whole different scene. But yeah, we were talking about, like the Globes mattering. Whatever. I think that the reason I saw at least some people being like worked up about the Globes as Oscar predictor this year was because, yes, one Battle won best Comedy and that is the presumed frontrunner for best Picture. But Hamnet beats Sinners.

[David Ehrlich]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

And I think people really want it to be understandably a one battle versus sinners kind of race to the finish. But then Hamnet has been this, like, this kind of wedge all season long.

[David Ehrlich]

But would Hamnet have won best Drama if Sinners had not had this dumb other category that those dumb voters filled with golden brained heads had been like, well, I already voted for it. And doesn't that count as a best picture too? And so Coogler gets up in the middle of the night and in the middle of the show is like, thank you. And they're like, all right, get out of here. You know, like. And like, it's embarrassing for them because it would be. Here's my pitch. I pitched this to Katie Rich, our friend. Like, you can't get nominated in cinematic and box office if you're nominated in best picture, Right? Yeah, it's all out because then F1 wins or whatever and everyone's happy.

[Alison Wilmore]

But I also, like, it's still unclear to me what that award is supposed to be.

[David Ehrlich]

Of course, it doesn't make any sense.

[Alison Wilmore]

You're like, these are good movies that made a lot of money as opposed to the other good movies that the distinction is.

[David Ehrlich]

So because K Pop Demon Hunters was nominated, which barely reported grosses, it doesn't make any sense.

[Richard Lawson]

So cinematically, the achievement.

[Ben]

Hey, Blankies. January 11th over on Blank Check special features, we're discussing the Wiz. One of my favorite movies of all time. Have been waiting forever to do this Part of our commentary series on the wizard of Oz universe. Some highlights include my passion for Motown music. Very well established in the history of this podcast. How Diana Ross pulled strings to get the lead role of Dorothy, which is a bit of an understatement. How the film reimagines New York City through the Oz lens. Frighteningly tangents like the infamous Quincy Jones interview. David, do you like Brazilian music?

[David Ehrlich]

Yes.

[Ben]

And Ben's pivot to becoming an author. Also, we talk about crying a lot. It's a tear filled movie. So listen to that. Exclusively on Patreon.

[Richard Lawson]

That kind of leads us into our, like, bigger topic of this week, which is like the idea of an Oscar villain. And it does feel like Hamnet because of this sort of it's Hamnet versus Sinners thing has become that. Do you guys agree that, like, I.

[David Ehrlich]

Think it was anointed that all the way back.

[Richard Lawson]

Joe Vulture wrote a piece in early November looking at how the early festival stuff was shaking out.

[David Ehrlich]

And I remember I had this conversation with Sean Fennesee, another Oscar watcher friend, where I was like, one battle's gonna take it, right? And he was like, I don't know, like Marty supreme, one battle, sinners. These movies, you know, they're not identical, but they maybe have a similar appeal. And maybe Hamnet kind of splits through them, like, you know, because Hamnet's giving you something different. And I think I made a noise like, so that would suggest that I considered it a bit of an Oscar villain.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. And it doesn't always have to be an Oscar villain. Sometimes I feel like some years we kind of force that narrative on things that don't really merit it.

[Marie]

Well, let's define what an Oscar villain.

[David Ehrlich]

What was the O scribble in, like the Oppenheimer year? Like, was there one? Because that was another kind of juggernautic.

[Richard Lawson]

Some people would say it was Oppenheimer. I think some people would say it's shut up. But everyone was riding so high on the Barbenheimer thing that everyone was just happy that they cinema was alive.

[Alison Wilmore]

We all win.

[David Ehrlich]

Right?

[Alison Wilmore]

I mean. Well, I think also, like to Richard's point before about the Golden Globes influencing the Oscars, like there is this point where you're like, oh, this is all vibes also, you know, like the number.

[David Ehrlich]

14 things was the Oscar villain that you just remember.

[Alison Wilmore]

Oh, that's. Yeah, that's a good one.

[David Ehrlich]

That's the answer.

[Alison Wilmore]

So I feel like the Oscar villain is something where the public and the media is convinced that this a film is Going to win and spoil, like, the narrative that we like, really. I mean, I feel like that's basically what it comes down to. And maybe it's undeserving, though. Oftentimes it's more just like it's a boring pick, right? Like, it fits into a tradition of an older Oscar movie that. That may or may not exist. But, like, that, we feel is, like, the safe, predictable option, whereas we're always sort of rooting for, like, the Oscars to do something that confirms our own taste instead.

[David Ehrlich]

I think there's. That. I think there's now also I have. And I think you guys might have this concern of, like, the Oscars need to be relevant to continue to justify their existence. At this point, it's no longer like, oh, this august body is handing out. It's like, no, no, no. The Oscars have to stay in the conversation. And if they're handing out hamnet best pictures, that's a step back, because 90% of people. And this is my Vibey take, I might be wrong, but 90% of people are like, can I swear? Yeah, the fuck is hamnet?

[Richard Lawson]

Well, and like, it was interchangeable with Hamlet back at the time, back in the day.

[David Ehrlich]

And there's kind of, of course, I think, to a lot of Oscar watchers who grew up, you know, I grew up watching the oscars in the 90s, as you guys did, where it was hanging over the Oscars at that point, that they had fucked up. Giving Paul Newman the Oscar too late. Giving Pacino the Oscar too late. That they'd never given. That there were all these mistakes. And so then when a sort of, like, silly Oscar win would happen, it would be like, yeah, well, they're fixing their mistake. And so when something like PTA makes this big movie and it's sort of like, time for him to win. I also have this thing, like, you can't. Don't just do it. Then you won't regret anything. Then, like, it's fine. Like, then you handled that. You gave a very, very important generational director an award for his best or one of his best movies. Chloe Zhao has an Oscar. We don't have to make this mistake. But I'm sure there's some voters who are like, but the Globe, the Shakespeare's Globe, and the death and the song. And I cried, right? And it's the little movie that could or whatever. I mean, I don't know.

[Alison Wilmore]

Also, it's funny because I feel like for so much of my memory of paying attention to the Oscars in more recent Years, the narrative has been they keep giving these awards to movies that no one has seen. Right.

[David Ehrlich]

Right.

[Alison Wilmore]

Like, the box office for the, like, the winners has gotten smaller and smaller and smaller, and we're like, oh, does anyone even know what this movie is? Like, like, you know, like, when you tell someone best picture went to blah, blah, blah, like, on the street. Right. Coda, which. Well, that was especially weird here. Yeah. Or like, I think people like Moonlight. Right. Like, you're like, like, if you ask someone passing by, because, like, the box office for that movie was so small at the time compared to, like.

[David Ehrlich]

I mean, these la Land compared to.

[Alison Wilmore]

Laland had been also what we used to think about, like. Yeah. And so I feel like this is a weird year in particular because we're like, wait, there is, like, a kind of critically beloved, but, like, also, like, this movie with, like, big cultural footprint that people are fighting over that has big movie, not been an enormous financial hit, but certainly has made much more money than, like, a lot of other.

[David Ehrlich]

Recent winners got people to theaters to see a movie that's challenging, that has a movie star in it, yada, yada. Yeah.

[Alison Wilmore]

And it is, like, commercial ish as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

I think the Oscar villain, to me, like, it really developed in, like, social media era, obviously, because, like you said, it's vibes. And I think there are two pie years of it.

[David Ehrlich]

Okay. I mean, I know. I know what they are, but one.

[Richard Lawson]

Is 2017, when three billboards outside of Ebbing, Missouri, was threatening to win Best Picture over Lady Bird, Get out like, and Shake Water ended up winning. And Del Toro basically saved that year because it was looking like Three Billboards, which, like, has, like, frequent use of the N word and, like, kind of plays fast and loose with other sort of offensive things. And, like, people really were rallying against that movie. And then a couple years later, Parasite was seen as the underdog to 1917. A stately war movie.

[David Ehrlich]

What was the other movie in 2019? Cause I remember 1917 came on late and it was. Oh, it was Irishman, I guess. And then I'm trying to think, like, that was such a weird Oscar.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, there was Joker.

[David Ehrlich]

Oh, boy.

[Richard Lawson]

Little Women.

[David Ehrlich]

Right. So it was like a very fraught year.

[Richard Lawson]

And the Tarantino. There was a Tarantino in that show.

[David Ehrlich]

And there was the Tarantino, which I was sort of like, do you want to do that? Cause, like, you know, it's about Hollywood, you know, made a lot of money, but they seemed a little. And then 1917 came along, and there was that fear that they were just like, ah, World War I. We can all agree and like, that it was gonna be this boring. Ish winner. I mean, the true. Look, there's two classic Oscar villains of pre Internet, which is Shakespeare in Love and Crash.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

And Shakespeare in Love is an unfairly maligned villain that was unfortunately gotten Best picture by a very fairly maligned villainous person, Harvey Weinstein. But the movie itself is wonderful, in my opinion.

[Richard Lawson]

I've rewatched it recently. I think it's great.

[David Ehrlich]

Is it the best picture of an incredible year that is 1998? Maybe not. But it is one of the best pictures. It's a worthwhile. Crash is the Crash and Green Book are both these movies that shook the Oscar. You could tell it shook the voting body up where they were like, oh, what did we do? They woke up the next morning being like, did we really do Green Book? Let's do Parasite next year.

[Richard Lawson]

Blood on their pants.

[David Ehrlich]

We maybe got out of hand there. Maybe we got a little too grumpy about the backlash to the backlash. And next year let's do Parasite because, what, crash is 05.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. Beats Brokeback.

[David Ehrlich]

Next year is the Departed. They're like, we're sorry.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, sorry. We're cool. Here's more. And also, we're cool. We swear we're cool.

[David Ehrlich]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah.

[Alison Wilmore]

But also, like, we're like, in the same thing with the Barbie Oppenheimer year. And this year where we, you know, like, every time they're like, are we gonna save the Oscars by being like, we have to give Avengers Doomsday best pictures. You know, like something like that. You're like, let's do it this year.

[David Ehrlich]

Honestly, whatever.

[Alison Wilmore]

I actually, like, have this year, like, like these movies that really were bigger movies that also are, like, auteurist movies and also are kind of commercially, you know, like, viable. And so it feels like the idea of Hamnet kind of creeping in there and winning that is like, part of the weight on it, you know, of just being like, wait, we're actually. This is the thing that we said we wanted, you know, all along. Movies that are like, that feel like they're the product of, like, a real artistic vision, but that are also, like, people wanted to watch them. And if they veer towards being like, no, we're gonna give this kind of, like, very serious historical drama, you know, that.

[David Ehrlich]

Yeah, it's just. I don't know what you guys thought of Hamnet. I assume we will discuss Hamnet. It's a movie that, like, fundamentally, at the end I was kind of like, ah, it didn't click for me because the whole movie is about kind of like building to that end, building to this big end where it's like, and now do you see? And I was like, I actually am feeling a little grumpy. But most of the movie is suffering. It's just so much suffering. And you know, it's like human, relatable suffering. It's not like it's not really over the top, I guess. Right. But it is.

[Richard Lawson]

You could make the argument that it is.

[David Ehrlich]

It's a little unrelenting and it's that kind of movie. Like, you really have to earn my interest if it's going to be heavy on suffering. And I never quite felt that it had earned my interest.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. I will say also, like, I rewatched it. You rewatched it recently? I rewatched it yesterday. The suffering is like, it dominates the second half of the movie. But the first half of the movie is just like, this is their marriage.

[David Ehrlich]

The first act, I think. Is that right? Is the woods and the trees and the romance.

[Alison Wilmore]

Don't forget the hogs and the hand fasting.

[David Ehrlich]

And that's stuff I like.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. And it's fine.

[David Ehrlich]

But I wasn't like, you know, like, eyes dazzling. Like this is so swoony and brilliant. I was like, I was intrigued.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. I mean. So the book that Hamnet is based on by Maggie O', Farrell, I read the first 14 pages before this on an epub, so I very well were asked to talk about. Notably does start with a scene that is almost exactly halfway through the movie, which is young Hamnet, who is the 11 year old son of Billy Shakes. Yeah, Billy Shakes and his wife, Anne.

[David Ehrlich]

Hathaway, who was in the Dark Knight Rise.

[Richard Lawson]

Yes.

[Ben]

Right.

[David Ehrlich]

And that's in the film that Nolan comes at one point, he's like, I want you to be Catwoman.

[Richard Lawson]

And she's like, okay, would you want to become Jane?

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. It was an unexpected cinematic universe, but I pulled it off.

[David Ehrlich]

Yeah. She's Agnes in the film. She was sort of interchangeably Agnes or.

[Alison Wilmore]

Anne Hathaway in the document. So Hamnet goes out to look for his mother because his sister is sick.

[David Ehrlich]

Yes.

[Alison Wilmore]

So this is. And that's not a big scene in the movie. It's like kind of the start of things tipping right. But like in the book, he like keeps looking for everyone and no one's around and his mother's not around. And that's something that will start to like, cause her guilt like afterwards that she was like, not there for this moment where probably she could not have changed what happened, but that she was like, you know, she wasn't there for him. But that's halfway through the movies, you know, like, to tell this story chronologically, the story that is, you know, about grief still, I feel like that just. It sets me up in a way that, like, just was totally ineffective for me, like, in terms of.

[David Ehrlich]

To just. To just be like me and Agnes, she lives in the woods. Everyone thinks she's kind of weird, except for this one guy who thinks she's pretty cool. And guess what his name is.

[Alison Wilmore]

Right?

[David Ehrlich]

And guess what he likes to do.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. And their parents are mad, but then they're like, okay, you crazy kids. And then, you know.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, because I have had the book read to me by Jesse Buckley. She recorded an audio against your will? Yeah, no, she recorded a new audio version of it, and I listened to it for something, and it's a beautifully written book. But. But what you're saying about how it starts in medias. Reis. And we're in Hamnet's head and we're feeling for this scared kid, and he was trying to help his sister. And then when you get to the Courtship of the two, it's this dreamy lilt back into the past, kind of. And the problem, I mean, I like the ending of Hamnet, and it kind of sells the movie to me. But the problem with all the stuff that comes before it is, like, I don't really know this kid.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah, exactly. Which Joop is he?

[David Ehrlich]

Jacoby. Jacoby?

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. Jacoby Joop has, like, a great little face. Like, that little perfectly round. Like, looks like the kind of face that you would see in a painting. Like, where a little kid is, like, dressed in, like, a, you know, weird, like, doubloons, like. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No perfect face for. That is very good. But, yeah, like, I was like, I don't know this kid. Like, you know, like. Because also, so much of the way the movie ends, setting up chronologically is like, this is a story of a marriage. Right? Like, and of in particular, this marriage to someone who. Spoilers.

[David Ehrlich]

Becomes really well known playwright.

[Richard Lawson]

We call them computers.

[Alison Wilmore]

It feels like the balance is off. You know, I think that to be like, oh, by the way, this is a movie about grief. But we're gonna start by being much more about. This is a movie about this marriage.

[David Ehrlich]

It's a huge problem.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah, it's. I think, something that just makes me feel totally not attached to what does happen.

[Richard Lawson]

I think just a little spoiler alert for the ending. We're going to talk about the ending of the movie.

[Marie]

Hey, Ben from the editing booth here. If you want to remain spoiler free for Hamnet, then you can Skip forward about 12 and a half minutes. We get back to more general discussion of the film, Oscar villainy, and our Oscar predictions after that.

[David Ehrlich]

I do think a core question with Hamnet is, what is Hamnet about? And the ultimately is. Well, actually, it's about the play Hamlet and our take on what that's about.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[David Ehrlich]

And that's not suggested in most of the movie. Most of the movie is about Agnes, obviously, and her relationship to the place she lives, the man she marries, the kids.

[Richard Lawson]

And that's true to the book as well, where it's.

[David Ehrlich]

And then she goes to see a play. And, like, I felt like I lost that character when she went to see the play.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

And I was already kind of just like, look, I have three children, two of whom are twins, and then an older daughter, which I believe is the configuration Shakespeare was in. His twins were different genders. I have two boys, but apart from that. So I certainly was not super eager to watch the movie about one of the twins dying of the bubonic plague.

[Alison Wilmore]

Right.

[David Ehrlich]

Like, and this is a movie with a lot of, like, child and sort of, you know, just general kind of like human suffering, like Ann Lee and if I had legs, like, movies. A lot of movies that I liked, but certainly movies where I'm like, die my love. Right. Where I'm like, okay, gotta sort of, like, gird myself for this one. But this was the one that's certainly trying to put you in the, like, headspace of, like, parents losing their child. It was very hard, like, in a way, but I actually couldn't connect to the movie very much. So it actually did not really lance me, like, I thought it might.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, yeah. The ending works for me. Not really almost at all as a comment on the grief that Agnes and William Shakespeare are feeling. What I like about it is you are witnessing the birth of one of the most enduring pieces of art ever.

[David Ehrlich]

I like anything with Shakespearean language. I like to see the globe. I like to think about how the plays were produced back then. All that is so interesting to me.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. But also, just like, now, if there.

[David Ehrlich]

Was a lady going like, who's he? Why is he?

[Alison Wilmore]

That is like a really. She's not allowed to come to anyone.

[Richard Lawson]

After I saw it again yesterday, I left a voice note for a friend that was like, did you guys hear what happened to the show yesterday? So the boss's wife shows up.

[David Ehrlich]

She's never seen a play before.

[Richard Lawson]

And then at the end, she grabs one of the actors. Like, yeah, no, but I just think that you're watching this personal tragedy transfer into a shared thing that will endure.

[David Ehrlich]

For half of a moment, which is so interesting.

[Richard Lawson]

I think that's really moving. But then you kind of. I left the theater in tears for a second time. I also muted the block and then was like, wait. But the movie that is behind that ending is not really adding up to that ending.

[David Ehrlich]

So I had that feeling. And then I also was walking on. I was like. But I feel like Hamlet might not be about that now. It's fine for them to just be like, well, we think it's like. We think that Shakespeare was processing his grief in writing Hamlet. Is it a little annoying that they were like, for example, his child was called Hamlet? And also, there's ghosts in Hamlet and stuff, and people die.

[Richard Lawson]

Ghosts are dead. Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

And I'm like. And anything else? And they were like, to be or not to be? And I'm like, I don't know if you sold me on that.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, the Arithmetic of. And she even says it. Anya says it in that final scene where Shakespeare himself comes out as Hamlet's father, as the ghost. And she's like, oh, he switched places with our boy, or whatever. And you're like, right. But that doesn't really track because then Hamlet does also die. So now two people are dead. Like, I wanted to watch her watch.

[David Ehrlich]

Like, you know, like, watch all his plays and be like, jesus. A lot of dying.

[Richard Lawson]

It also doesn't really, like, address the fact that Shakespeare, like many of his plays, was dealing with an old, old myth, as the documentary the Northman shows us. Like, the Hamlet story was around hundreds of years prior to Shakespeare's day. So, like, was he just grafting his son's death onto this extant myth?

[Marie]

Or, like, it sort of feels like if Macbeth had been called Hamlet instead of Macbeth, we might be watching Macbeth.

[David Ehrlich]

Right?

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Marie]

Yes.

[Alison Wilmore]

Or they.

[Richard Lawson]

Troilus.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. No, the movie definitely, like, plucks a few scenes and is like, here we go. Let's ignore the rest of the play. Because there's a lot of other scenes.

[David Ehrlich]

Where, like, Hamlet's like, I hate how my mom is fucking my uncle.

[Alison Wilmore]

It's like, would she watch.

[David Ehrlich]

No scenes being like, now, I don't know how this connects.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah, exactly.

[Richard Lawson]

Now, Polonius. Is that Emily Watson?

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. Isaac Butler at Slate wrote a great piece about grapples a lot more with the Whole of the play and all of that. And I thought that was great. Honestly, I don't mind the fudging. In theory.

[David Ehrlich]

In theory, I could be on board with it, Right? Absolutely.

[Alison Wilmore]

But I do feel like. I mean, I feel like that scene loses me also, because I'm just like, what the final act becomes, which is what I think the whole movie should have been. To really make this worth is these two people who cannot communicate about the fact that they are both grieving, but they grieve in very different ways. Right. And because we're, like, grounded in Agnes, who is played by Jessie Buckley as this kind of incredibly, almost like, feral, like, girthy creature of nature. Her emotions are, like, so right there on the surface. Like, she does not hide.

[David Ehrlich]

She's a wonderful actor. I adore her, and I feel like.

[Alison Wilmore]

She'S capable of that kind of, like, feral. Like this. This, like, kind of, like, electric performance in a way where. Yeah. Like, even when you're like, why does she not understand what a play is? She's been married to a playwright for, like, years and years and years. Like, why is she coming in there being like, why are they saying my son's name? What is going on here? Like, what are they talking about? Like. Like, like sitting next to someone's, like, kind of like, like, grandmother who has, like, is a little hard of hearing and, like, is, like, what are they talking about?

[Richard Lawson]

You don't understand any Sunday matinee on Broadway. Is that odd?

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

Now what's he doing?

[Alison Wilmore]

Yes.

[David Ehrlich]

Now this whole play is about chess. Now, which of them play chess? Sorry, you guys got to see.

[Richard Lawson]

Chess is great.

[Alison Wilmore]

I can't believe you guys. No one has offered to bring me along.

[David Ehrlich]

I'll bring you. Let's go. I'll go back.

[Richard Lawson]

I'll go to Chess. Yeah, we'll meet here next week. Just talk about chess for the Oscar nomination.

[Alison Wilmore]

And I think it's also. I think that Paul Mescal is very good in this as well, and he has, like, the harder role because he's just gone for a lot of the time. But also, like, he, like, is. We see him through Jessie Buckley's character a lot of the time, and she does not understand him. Like, she is not seeing his grief, you know, like, she is not understanding that he is wrestling with it in his own way by, like, then trying to funnel it into this work of, you know, literature and art.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, she thinks he's off in London, trip in the light fantastic. Because, you know, London at that time, you know, late 16th century. What a fun place to be.

[David Ehrlich]

But this is something else that drove me nuts. This sort of, like, Married With Children thing where she. There's sort of the implication, like, well, you're always gone. And I'm like, it's the 16th century. People don't think that way. Like, it's not like, I need you home with the kids. No, that wasn't how things worked back then.

[Richard Lawson]

He was making money, and that was what was.

[David Ehrlich]

Right.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

And, like, half of his life was touring, which I think. I mean, like, again, this isn't a Shakespeare biography, but, like, it is so interesting that, like, London would get the plague and it would be like, all right, then we're going on tour. And he would tour around the country with whatever group he was in.

[Alison Wilmore]

But, like. Like, that. Like, what she thinks is going on in his life in London and, like, how much she cares about that is, like, unclear, right?

[David Ehrlich]

Very unclear. And largely untouched on.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. Like, in the movie, she refuses to come. She just is like, no, we have to stay out here because, like, this is best for my children and all of that.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, she thinks he's making comedies, so she thinks that he's, like, just kind of yucking it up.

[Alison Wilmore]

A bawdy fool and that. Like, he's, like, living in some swank.

[Richard Lawson]

Place, going to nightclubs and fancy restaurants.

[David Ehrlich]

Right, right.

[Alison Wilmore]

I mean, like, she is, like, there. She shocked when they see you living in an attic.

[David Ehrlich]

Right.

[Richard Lawson]

Like, they're, like, kind of a really nice studio.

[Alison Wilmore]

I know. I was like, you know, that would run you, like, $5,000 a month, especially the South Bank.

[David Ehrlich]

I mean, it was really fancy.

[Richard Lawson]

And in a way, you watch the beginning of the movie and you're like, couldn't it just be this? I'd be fine with this for 90 minutes.

[David Ehrlich]

I'd be interested by.

[Richard Lawson]

But knowing that it's building toward this thing, it then starts to feel a little bit cruel. Because you're like, why are we sit. Why are we all sitting here?

[David Ehrlich]

Well, I'm finding this character by this thing that happened to her, this person, by the loss of her child and the first. By the horrendous labor that she. We assume, went through. And then the loss of her child again. All we know is that he had a son who died.

[Marie]

Right.

[David Ehrlich]

Like, literally, the Shakespeare facts are so. It's this much. It's like, barely anything.

[Alison Wilmore]

We know almost nothing about her, and.

[David Ehrlich]

We know nothing about her.

[Alison Wilmore]

There has been a lot of stuff.

[Richard Lawson]

Projected family and that she was older.

[David Ehrlich]

And there's the famous thing that Shakespeare in his Will left her his second best bed, which is this kind of classic joke where it's like, oh, God. Like the old ball and chain. But that's actually apparently a cultural thing of, like, that was the marriage bed. The best bed is for guests.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[David Ehrlich]

And he left that, I think, to his daughter. But, like, it's like, so in leaving her the marriage bed, he is. You know, he's paying homage to their marriage. Was Shakespeare, like, bisexual?

[Richard Lawson]

Probably.

[David Ehrlich]

Like, did Shakespeare mostly live in London and hang out with dudes and write sonnets about him? Probably. But, like, is that in this movie? No, we don't have time for that. It's so. I love thinking about Shakespeare.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

And I felt like Hamnet didn't think about Shakespeare much, except as a grieving dad who happens to be writing Hamlet.

[Richard Lawson]

Right, right. And does the part of to be or not to be by the banks of the town.

[David Ehrlich]

That was the nature. I thought Meskel handled the language so well. Like, I love watching that guy act, like. And I really enjoyed most of what.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah, it's really also hard. He gets tasked with being like, you're going to say some of the most famous lines of all time. Ones that are so well known.

[David Ehrlich]

Really memorable stuff.

[Alison Wilmore]

We can. We can't hear them anymore as, like, sentences. Like, we can only hear them as just, like, familiar series of words. You are going to have to say them. Like, someone who wrote them and is speaking them for the first time.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[David Ehrlich]

And is maybe telling an actor how to say them or whatever.

[Alison Wilmore]

That one scene, do you think, like, that to be or not to be on the edge of the water is, like, just impossible for anyone. Like, that's beyond anyone's, like, skill. But I think the scene. Yeah. Where he's, like, he's auditioning or they're auditioning, I think is, like, great. Like, I think he kind of, like, brings something to. That.

[David Ehrlich]

They wouldn't have auditioned, though. Like, it was a core group of questions.

[Alison Wilmore]

Okay. Like, if we're going to talk about also that, then you're like, no, no, I don't think you're wrong, but I think, like, it is like, this kind of weird thing where you're also like, okay. Realistically, people in this era would be much more used to, like, children dying all the time. Like, Ava, it brought up with, like, the.

[David Ehrlich]

You know, that's a very interesting debate. So I recently read Peter Ackroyd wrote a biography of Shakespeare, and I read it, and it is. I don't recommend it because there is almost no documented fact about Shakespeare, as you guys may know. So it is mostly him being like, well, someone this guy's age who lived here probably would have done this around, like, it's a lot of that. And then he gets to the plays and that's more interesting in like the conventions of the theater at the time. But he does talk about his kid dying and like, he gets into that debate of like, should we think about people from hundreds of years ago as being a little more inured to the death of children? Probably not. Like, there's graves, there's art, there's remembrances of dead children. That is clearly like very deeply felt. Like, it's not like people were like, ah, well, that's why you have seven. You know, like, but, but it would have been different.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. Like, it would have been something that happened more often. Which is not to say you're like, then people are like, oh, well, yeah, I have a few spares. But like, I mean, there's that, There is that part where the, her mother in law, you know, she's like talking about how she's like buried three children, right? Like, lost three daughters. I feel like. Also, I don't know, like the, the way that it's handled with the, the twin daughter, there is this weird like, wrong kid died, like, aspect where you're like, you're like, what is going on here?

[David Ehrlich]

It's a creepy, unsettling sort of Meg notion they have that the boy kind of steals the illness from the girl to protect her. And again, I feel like the fact that we're just debating all these points and nitpicking suggests to me that the movie doesn't completely work because it should just transport me and I should just be lost to the romance of it and not worrying about any of that stuff. And instead I kept bumping on things and is it because I went in being like, well, let me see this Oscar villain. It better impress me. Like, I don't think so. I like all of Chloe Zhao's movies. I liked Eternals, I'll admit it.

[Richard Lawson]

Fair enough.

[David Ehrlich]

And I loved the writer. I watched that movie with you, Alison, at the Magnum.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

And we both walked out in tears.

[Alison Wilmore]

Oh, it's such a good movie.

[David Ehrlich]

And in Nomadland, like, you know, that movie is so lost in Covid for me. Like, but I remember being impressed by it at the time and it got a little swallowed up in like an.

[Richard Lawson]

Oscar villain in a series.

[David Ehrlich]

It became something of a vil. Although again, we had all lost our minds.

[Ben]

David.

[David Ehrlich]

Yes. Brr.

[Ben]

Chatter, chatter, chatter, chatter.

[David Ehrlich]

Chatter Sarah. The Polar Express. Going rubbing arms.

[Ben]

I wish, I wish I could get inside because on that train they serve drinks that are hot, hot, hot.

[David Ehrlich]

They never let them cool.

[Ben]

Never ever, never let them cool. No, unfortunately I have not acquired a ticket to the Polar Express. I am stuck because you do not believe in freezing winter or lead. It's a new year with colder days and this is the moment, David. This is the moment your winter wardrobe has to deliver.

[David Ehrlich]

This is true. It's been quite chilly in nyc. Those feels like temps have been low. And you know what I've been relying on? What? Some premium outerwear from quints.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, well, well.

[Ben]

If you're craving a winter reset like Kraven the Hunter, you can start with pieces truly made to last season after season. Quints we know brings together premium materials, thoughtful design and enduring quality so you stay warm, look sharp and feel your best all season long. What you been getting, Dave?

[David Ehrlich]

To quote Dizzy Rascal, it is time to fix up and look sharp.

[Ben]

And to quote the conductor, hot, hot, hot.

[David Ehrlich]

Quince has got everything you need. You got men's Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I've got one of those in zip form. Maybe I should get another.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

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[Ben]

You're beside yourself.

[David Ehrlich]

I own a lot of quints.

[Ben]

You own a lot of quints?

[David Ehrlich]

Like I got my discount code from them way back when. Ain't no one anymore. I'm just buying it.

[Ben]

You're just buying it?

[Richard Lawson]

Full price.

[David Ehrlich]

Although almost. They've almost always got some kind of sale going on.

[Ben]

I mean, $50 cashmere, that's its own tab on the website right now.

[David Ehrlich]

Y. Y. No. They've got really cool stuff. Big fan of their polos. As I've said before, I. I've definitely admitted to this. Got some sheets and a comforter. A full comforter. From Quince.

[Ben]

From Quint.

[David Ehrlich]

You listening to me? I was going to share, actually. My wife's mother, so my mother, she recently, through Quint, Quince purchased some jewelry. Oh, my goodness. She got a. Is it cashmere jewelry? It is not cashmere jewelry. Fair enough. But it. She got herself vintage inspired ring. It's really beautiful. So, I mean, how. Quince has got it all.

[Ben]

Yeah, seriously got it all.

[David Ehrlich]

We said that simultaneously. It sounded planned. It was not.

[Ben]

Quince has got it all.

[David Ehrlich]

It's almost like I should go to Quince and just, like, get some raspberries. Just start seeing what else they got.

[Richard Lawson]

They got it all.

[David Ehrlich]

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[Richard Lawson]

Given everything we've said about the movie, how we feel about it, is that why it's an Oscar villain? Are people actually making those principled sort of qualitative arguments against the movie, or is it more just how it sort of.

[David Ehrlich]

Just like they're putting it against their favorite movie of the year and they're like, well, it didn't measure up, so now you're my, you know, villainous.

[Alison Wilmore]

I don't think anyone's seen it yet. You know, I mean, like, we are still. Like, we. It still is not playing, like, everywhere around the country. It is still.

[David Ehrlich]

I think they did sort of a weird job releasing it, and they probably.

[Richard Lawson]

Should have just because they. It was like a tiny release and then it got bigger and then it sort of went away. But now it's coming back. Right?

[David Ehrlich]

They're bringing it back, I guess, hoping that, you know, the wave of Oscar noms will draw new eyes. But they sort of abandoned what looked like it was gonna be a traditional, slow expansion.

[Richard Lawson]

If it was just Jessie Buckley, who basically, from the Venice Film Festival on was like, the frontrunner to Wave as actress, there's no doubt in anyone's mind there's no one to compete with her. Rose Byrne, I think, has come up steadily on her.

[David Ehrlich]

But like, Rose Byrne, winning an Oscar.

[Richard Lawson]

For that movie would be really unusual.

[David Ehrlich]

Like, I love that movie.

[Richard Lawson]

Do you think if it was just Buckley as sort of the sole representative of that movie and, you know, maybe, like, cinematography, maybe Mescal gets a nomin, whatever, but it's not this Best Picture thing. Do you think it would have the same kind of backlash?

[David Ehrlich]

No, no, probably not.

[Alison Wilmore]

No. No. I mean, we also, like, we're. I think we're much more at peace with the Sort of movies that are like, oh, this is just like, this is here as a. As a platform for this major performance. Like. Like, that's fine. We're like, we'll lukewarm on the movie, but, like, the performance is incredible.

[David Ehrlich]

And the classic, like, Oscar thing of, like, with lead actress, not lead actor, only with lead actress, like, oh, you're in your mid-30s. You. You've put in some work and it is time for your final anointment as a sort of major actor because you suffered on screen and there's so many lead actress winners who suffer and win. And she is good, and I've liked other performances by her more, but she's good in the film. But are people gonna look back and be like, and yeah, Hamnet, that was her best work? I don't know. Are they gonna look back and be like, hamnet, she sure cried the most then. Possibly.

[Richard Lawson]

I mean, I do think it is maybe qualms that we might have about the movie. I think it is an interesting sign of some kind of progress or maybe just, I don't know that it used to be that the actress would suffer. She'd win an Oscar, but a lot of the times the movie she was in would not get nominated for Best Picture. Right. You get, you know, like, you have the still hours or whatever. That kind of being with the Judy Garland movie, you know, Judy, like with Renee Zellweger. And now it's like, well, not only is the actress suffering and probably will win for it, but, like, you know, its director is in contention. It's certainly a best Picture. It's gonna be a best Picture nominee. Like, that might tell us something good about, like, the way the Academy is thinking. Because that did not used to be the case. Like, there were years where five, all five best Actress nominees were not in a Best Picture nominee.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think also, I don't know, maybe this is a good time to talk about Chloe Zhao also, who is. I think part of the reason there is a backlash against this movie is that people feel really divided on her for ways in some ways are maybe earned in other ways are just like out of nowhere or just like cloaked misogyny or, like racism.

[David Ehrlich]

I would say she's an odd customer. Like, she definitely has, like, a particular sort of way of talking about her work that I guess sets some people off. I don't know.

[Alison Wilmore]

I mean, she's definitely. I mean, she is kind of a woo, woo. She's hippie.

[David Ehrlich]

She's pretty upfront of it.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah, she like, you know, was, like, living in Ojai, and she let everyone in breathing exercises before screenings of him.

[David Ehrlich]

When I interviewed her, she was talking about her chickens a lot. She had, like, multiple chickens. And we discussed her chickens. This was for Nomadland.

[Alison Wilmore]

She got, like, two dogs that she got when she was shooting the rider. They were just like, you know, like, she adopted them. She's got, yeah, like, chickens everywhere. She just, like you said, like, kind.

[David Ehrlich]

Of an earth mama vibe.

[Alison Wilmore]

And I feel like.

[Richard Lawson]

But has a background. Like, her familial. Her family background sort of seemed to belie that. Right.

[David Ehrlich]

Like, because her, like, her father invented aluminum or something. I don't really know.

[Alison Wilmore]

Industrialist, like a steel. Like. Yeah. So she's, like, rich. She came from a rich background. Like, do you feel like we can't figure out, like, what makes us really angry about that? You know, where you're like, yes. Like, in a general.

[David Ehrlich]

They're fully. I. Very careful, but so many people do. I know, I know.

[Alison Wilmore]

Like, I, like. I feel like the. The layers of it are, like, on one, like, we hate rich people and we want to eat them.

[David Ehrlich]

And you're like, let's eat them up.

[Alison Wilmore]

And then past that thing, you're like, okay. There is a lot of structural unfairness in this already, like, brutal industry. You know, that was like, never easy to get into anyway and never fair. But that, like, now more than ever feels like it is, like, closed off to people that do not come with, like, financial padding or connections or both. So, like, that is. I think, like, there's that there, though. I feel like hanging that on any one particular person is, like, unfair.

[David Ehrlich]

As a critic, it feels like fool's errands. That's why I don't, like, think about it very much. Try to think about the work you made.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. And I feel like that's the point where it. Where it is valid to bring up is just when you're like, this person does not know how to make movies about this subject matter because, you know, like, if you.

[David Ehrlich]

Yeah, it might happen. Yeah.

[Alison Wilmore]

And I feel like that is where it is valid to me, though I don't really agree with it applied here. Like, I just. I don't necessarily feel that tension in her movies. I though some of the criticism around Nomadland I felt was like, w. Like, just out of nowhere, like, Like, I.

[David Ehrlich]

It was just like. I think it felt very rooted in, like, her, you know. Well, you grew up rich, so what do you know of a poor person's, you know, journey? And also, like, Amazon. Everyone got so crazy about Amazon.

[Alison Wilmore]

Amazon, yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

You know, as if people don't work there.

[David Ehrlich]

Right. I mean, you know, so, like, I.

[Alison Wilmore]

Didn'T feel like Amazon looked like a really.

[Richard Lawson]

They did not come off well in.

[David Ehrlich]

That movie, in my opinion.

[Alison Wilmore]

Like, there is. There is no aspect of that that was like, well, I'm gonna go work in that.

[David Ehrlich]

She's somewhere where I'm like, I'm very interested to see what she does. I was excited for this movie.

[Richard Lawson]

And.

[David Ehrlich]

I'm excited for whatever. What's she doing next? We don't know.

[Richard Lawson]

Eternals two, she's doing the Naked Gun sequel. It's going to be really beautiful.

[Alison Wilmore]

The writer, too.

[David Ehrlich]

And I think that the things about her filmmaking approach that I liked are in the first act of this movie and the nature stuff, in this sort of tactility of their home, where I'm like, yeah, she's always been really good at that kind of observational, sort of quiet, you know, intimate stuff. But any Shakespeare movie has to be a fantasy. And this is like this sort of tragic, sad fantasy of his family. Shakespeare in Love is this, like, swoony, romantic fantasy of uninvented relationships.

[Richard Lawson]

It's also fun, though. That was.

[David Ehrlich]

I mean, anytime anyone was like, could it be the Shakespeare in Love to One Battle's Saving Private Ryan? I was like, those four movies don't relate to each other, apart from William Shakespeare being a character. Like, Shakespeare in Love won because it was bouncy and light and, like, zippy. And I guess everyone. I mean, it is to this day, it's insane that Saving Perfect Ryan didn't win Best Picture because, like, D Day veterans were, like, sobbing in their seats, being like, it's like, I'm there. And, like, Oscar voters were like, but Shakespeare fell in love.

[Richard Lawson]

No, there were people who knew Shakespeare and were crying and saying, it's like. It's like I'm there.

[Alison Wilmore]

But, like, even as a. Like, a frothy movie, it's like Tom Stoppard wrote, you know, like, it had the classic Tony.

[David Ehrlich]

You're right. You're right.

[Richard Lawson]

I also. I sometimes. I've rewatched Shakespeare in Love many times, but, like, sometimes I will just go to YouTube and watch the ending because it has a beautiful ending where she walks across the beach and he's writing Twelfth Night. And it kind of brings me to a handneck question, which is. Is part of the. Or how much of the movie's success thus far and its Oscar chances, whatever, are. Because it sends you out of the movie feeling, like, for A lot of people feeling that way. I think it's a huge change the last five minutes. Who cares what happened in the previous hour? And change.

[David Ehrlich]

If you destroy an ending like that, just annihilate your audience like that. Yes, that's a huge benefit. Whereas Saving Private Ryan ends with man, Matt Damon going like, was I good? And I think everyone was kind of like Spielberg, you know, too many extra endings, like, not to relitigate the 98 Oscars.

[Richard Lawson]

No, but, I mean, there are parallels for certain.

[David Ehrlich]

There's a little bit of a parallel, but I think Hamnet is more the kind of, like, Oscar winner that was, like I said, defined by big acting, crying, suffering, like, things like that. You know, like weighty ideas, death, loss.

[Marie]

There are other movies this year about women suffering and in pain. Testament of an Lee. There's actually sort of similarly about childbirth.

[Alison Wilmore]

A lot of women. Yes.

[David Ehrlich]

So much.

[Marie]

And Die My Love, which is just.

[David Ehrlich]

A lot of one woman suffering in particular. Yes.

[Marie]

Why is Hamnet the one that, you know, is, like, speaking to people the most?

[David Ehrlich]

It's classier. Yeah.

[Alison Wilmore]

I think that's the thing is, like, it does have, I think, to its detriment. It is, like, very strenuously, like, prestigious. Like, not maybe in the kind of older costume drama way we tend to associate. Like, right, it wants to be earthier, feels more lived in a bit, but it's also, I don't know, it feels very airless to me. Like, it wants so badly to be this kind of, like, beautiful, like, kind of, like, artistically aware work. Like, the shots. All of the shots of the attic, you know, like, where you see the beds the children are in, and then the camera pans across to, like, show, you know, the status of the family. There's a lot. It works very hard to kind of transmit its, like, prestige, and I think it labors under that a lot. But I think that's also what has made it, like, what has made people.

[Richard Lawson]

Take for some people and doesn't work for others. I mean, the backlash to Hamnet, the. The award, the Oscar villain sort of narrative for it is largely pinned to that. It's like, oh, it's just shameless Oscar bait. You know, I don't think that Chloe Zhao makes shameless. I don't think that that is her intention.

[David Ehrlich]

But this is similar to the Oscar and villain thing, where every year there's debates over some movies where it's like, well, they're just trying to win an Oscar. And I'm like, everyone wants to win an Oscar.

[Richard Lawson]

Everyone's Trying. Yeah. It depends on, you know, not every movie. But like. Yeah, like that was somewhere in Paul Thomas Anderson's head. It had to have been. Even if it was subconscious.

[David Ehrlich]

I think about that all the time because you always hear those stories after the fact when someone wins an Oscar of like, Bob Evans came over to me and said, you're gonna win the Oscar for this picture, you know, And I'm like, yeah, I bet you he said that to a bunch of other people who didn't win Oscars. It's on a lot people's minds.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. I mean, it is true. Also, we. We don't like it. It's unclear how the academy feels about it, but like, it's debatable.

[David Ehrlich]

I think we don't like being thought.

[Alison Wilmore]

Of try too hard though. Right. Like they want it too much. Then we're like. Especially I think with women. Yes, you want it too much. And that's like off putting to people, you know, like you, you, you. Everyone can want an Oscar. Everyone can work really hard for an Oscar. But you're not supposed to like, make it. Make people feel it.

[Richard Lawson]

Right. I also think that why a movie like Hamnet is succeeding where Die My Love or something is not. Is that like Hamnet kind of different from the book, really makes a lot of room for Shakespeare's grief. Whereas, like a Die My Love or, you know, if I had legs, I would kick you. Is not. The men aren't really.

[David Ehrlich]

No, if I had legs, I'd kick you. The hamster is the number two software.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. It's incredible performance too.

[Richard Lawson]

And that's.

[David Ehrlich]

He took one look at them.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Alison Wilmore]

Like, yeah, man.

[David Ehrlich]

Out of here.

[Richard Lawson]

And then that still is, I think, you know, a bridge too far for a lot some of the, you know.

[David Ehrlich]

But A Bridge Too Far didn't win any Oscars.

[Richard Lawson]

I know. It should have, though. Oh, well.

[Ben]

David.

[David Ehrlich]

Yes.

[Ben]

We speak of the great struggles.

[David Ehrlich]

Uhhuh.

[Ben]

Godzilla V. Kong.

[David Ehrlich]

I prefer Godzilla X. Kong.

[Marie]

Well, is this.

[Ben]

This is the point.

[David Ehrlich]

Okay.

[Ben]

Sometimes these things can work past being.

[David Ehrlich]

Struggles and become X.

[Ben]

They become X, which means together, sort.

[David Ehrlich]

Of a combo with some friction adjacent. Yeah, I guess so.

[Ben]

Multiplied.

[David Ehrlich]

Right. A compounding. It's a compounding.

[Ben]

It's a compounding. Listen, often in our wacky world, it starts to feel like your life is centered around me, X. My finances.

[David Ehrlich]

Hey, man.

[Ben]

Well, that's what you want. You want to stop being my finances.

[David Ehrlich]

And I need to the new empire of.

[Ben]

Start a new empire.

[David Ehrlich]

Me, X, my finances.

[Ben]

Gonna be called Supernova.

[David Ehrlich]

Sure, why not?

[Ben]

It's the second Godzilla X Kong movie.

[David Ehrlich]

Do you think Dan Stevens will do more Kaiju dentistry in that film?

[Ben]

I think so. He is back, right? And Jack o', Connell, the reason we're talking about this is because Monarch within the monster Monsterverse has a legacy of monsters. But Monarch within our universe is a company that can really help you get your finances in check.

[David Ehrlich]

That is true. Maybe a little less exciting. Kurt Russell and Wyatt Russell not involved. But yet. But with Monarch, managing your money doesn't have to be a struggle. Okay. Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth and future planning together in one dashboard, on your laptop, on your phone. Start your New Year on the right foot financially. And you can get 50% off your monarch subscription with the code check.

[Richard Lawson]

Wow.

[Ben]

Get those financial skull crawlers out of here. Push the Scar King away. These are Monsterverse characters. Deeper cuts.

[David Ehrlich]

Maybe you got a New Year's resolution. You want to, like, get your, you know, finances in order, make some goals, have an app that sort of personalizes, like, your. All your money for you in a way where you're kind of like, okay, this is the kind of thing I can achieve this year.

[Ben]

Yeah, my main resolution is to remove one of King Kong's molars. But you're right, responsibly, I should add some of those to my resolution.

[David Ehrlich]

Then you need the kind of. Kind of crazy dentist who wear sunglasses indoors.

[Ben]

But also significant capital. You can't use usual tools on a King Kong mouse.

[David Ehrlich]

No, you needed like a crane or whatever he uses. Look, Monarch has helped users save over $200 per month on average. After joining, 8 out of 10 members feel more in control of their finances. With modern monarch, 8 out of 10 members say monarch gives them a clearer picture of where their money's going. I feel that Monarch is not giving me a clear picture on where the Monsterverse is going. It's felt little. The world building's been a little muddled.

[Ben]

So the Hollow Earth.

[David Ehrlich]

I guess so.

[Ben]

And then coming back out, coming back.

[David Ehrlich]

Out and finding more stuff in there.

[Ben]

Going back down there again.

[David Ehrlich]

But Monarch finance, very clear. World building is crisp. No problems there.

[Ben]

Here's another thing that's interesting. As you said, 8 out of 10 members say monarch gives them a clear picture. I feel like 8 out of 10 single build actors in any Monsterverse movie never appear in another one. There are always exactly two karaoke.

[David Ehrlich]

I'll tell you, their. Their finances, though, are probably in order. They are Like, I think Millie Bobby Brown cut a check or two.

[Ben]

You do one and done and you're still happy. Millie did two.

[David Ehrlich]

I know this new year achieve your financial goals for good. Monarch is the all in one tool that makes proactive money management simple all year long. Use code checkonarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first [e-mail] with.

[Ben]

Code check and whisper the word Monarch if you want to go to the Hollow Earth.

[Richard Lawson]

We should probably, before we wrap up, address the fact that this is the last episode of this before the Oscar nominations are out. We are presuming that Hamnet will do quite well. Well, I don't know. I feel like Chloe Zhao has not really been brought into the director conversation much.

[David Ehrlich]

Weirdly, like, for when I think PTA is the sort of like guaranteed winner, except for some sort of insane, like, you know, Jeff Harpanahi kind of groundswell, which seems to have maybe abated a little bit. Not that that he would be a very worthy winner, but like, I think there's sort of the, like, well, PTA is the great auteur and we will honor his long career with a best director win at mid minimum.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

Or whatever.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. It's also, I, you know, we didn't talk about the actor awards or the DGA awards, both of which were announced in between our last episode. But yeah, what I'm curious about are like, the incursion of the, the neon films, the international films. None of the, like, the, like the actor awards and the DJ awards did not go for any of them. They were very America first.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, because they're guild focused in their union and they're like. Well, I don't know. A lot of these people are. They. Those weren't union films, you know, so I think they're resistant to it. But, but it, it does keep those movies then out of a narrative for a few because they're not showing up at those, you know.

[Alison Wilmore]

Right. But like, I can see for like, best Director, I mean, there are a lot of, you know, like, international filmmakers who have made incredible work who also do seem to have a lot of push behind them. And I feel like that has made it even harder for Chloe Zhao to be in that conversation.

[David Ehrlich]

Right. And the Oscars these days tend to go more Euro than the precursors. And I think that's what everyone's sort of trying to anticipate. And it's harder this year because there's sort of like three to four or neon movies, whatever, you know, Cannes Favorites. And everyone thought it was just an accident was sort of going to be the big one. And now it seems like the Secret Agent just has a ton of juice. Despite being. I really love that movie. But like, it's inscrutable.

[Alison Wilmore]

It is a weird ass movie. Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

Baffled that it has basically become everyone's like box check for like three major awards. Like, not because of his quality. It's an excellent movie. I was just like, oh, wow. This transit.

[Richard Lawson]

I perhaps, you know, I underestimated, you know, I was like, that's going to be. That's too esoteric. It's too, you know, difficult to tangle with. But I guess not.

[David Ehrlich]

You know, I mean, but this is. I've gotten bad at this because last year I spent all fall being like, ah, Nora's just a little too spiky. Like, it's just. It's not going to be.

[Alison Wilmore]

Oh.

[Richard Lawson]

I was dead convinced. I was like, the Academy Awards will never give anything to a Shawn Baker movie. You know, And I was.

[David Ehrlich]

And I'm sure Shawn Baker would have agreed to up to about the moment an Oscar went in his hand.

[Richard Lawson]

Richard was wrong. That was his first song.

[Alison Wilmore]

It was a weird speech, but.

[Richard Lawson]

And I think that it makes prediction harder to do. But also back to the hamnet thing. It's like that's another reason why it's sort of an Oscar villain is because progress is being made and this would seem like this huge backslide to. Even though I think it's crazy to call a Chloe Zhao movie like a backslid. She's a pretty forward thinking filmmaker and was greeted as one of the new auteur just a few years ago.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. I mean, and this is also like there's miles between this in terms of like kind of aesthetic choices and storytelling choices and like say like Sense and Sensibility, which I love. But like is. I feel like always in my head the classic like, like costume drama, you know, movie that the awards would love. Yeah. So, yeah. I don't know. What I am curious about is Sinners because I am sensing that like that momentum just is whatever momentum it had feels like it's kind of fading in terms of like, I mean, I'm assuming it'll get SAGs. Sure.

[Richard Lawson]

Or actors Awards.

[Alison Wilmore]

I feel like that, like, that is my big question. Like, are any of the cast. Is it going to get acting awards?

[David Ehrlich]

Well, I think Michael B. Jordan will be nominated. And then it feels like everything else is a little up in the air because the SAG Awards, they had it in almost every category, Right.

[Richard Lawson]

Like, yeah. Like wy masaku. No. 1. Linda did not get in for supporting actor. Right.

[David Ehrlich]

Which was weird. What did he do? Did he run someone over? Like, I don't like, why ignore one of the great unnominated actors in Hollywood alive currently.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, go ask Donald Sutherland's grave. I don't know.

[David Ehrlich]

I think Sinners will get a bunch of nominations. I have no fear about this. My big thing is I think I want it to win screenplay because I want Ryan to win an Oscar. Hopefully, that's how that goes. But maybe it won't. And maybe we'll walk out of, you know, Oscar night being like, it's kind of a bummer that Sinners, like, got tossed, like, one design award and, like, was largely ignored by or, like, cinematography.

[Alison Wilmore]

Which feels like something it could. Definitely could.

[David Ehrlich]

And that's fine. Like, that's a. You know, it had great. It looked. Yeah. I don't know. This is.

[Alison Wilmore]

I mean, particularly bad news for me because that was one of my big spins in the fantasy draft.

[Richard Lawson]

End of.

[David Ehrlich]

Well, I think it's gonna rack up, like, a dozen plus nominees. Like, I think it will be well recognized, especially because of the technical side of things. I do wish it was being discussed more, but whatever. Marty's.

[Richard Lawson]

We might get a bunch of nominations, but it's really only an actor play.

[David Ehrlich]

I feel like. Look, if you ask me, as much as we just discussed Hamnet, you know, Marty supreme and Hamnet's awards are earmarked actor and actress, like, take your prize.

[Richard Lawson]

Right. Do we think. Okay, before we close, do we want to, like, does anyone have. Have, like, a. A prediction for, like, a surprise nominee, a surprise snub that they've been kind of mulling over?

[David Ehrlich]

Ariana Grande could be a surprise snub.

[Richard Lawson]

I think. I think that's. Yeah, I think there's a good chance that's true.

[David Ehrlich]

If she gets nominated. That's insane.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

And I'm not saying I think that performance is pretty fun. And I think she kind of. I mean, that horrendous movie for good, you know, the second movie. She's kind of the only one who emerges, like, basically unskilled. But how many people have been nominated for, like, in that way? Like, anyone ever nominated, like, back to back for playing the same character twice.

[Richard Lawson]

Like Kristoff Wells.

[David Ehrlich]

And even him. There's a couple years between them. Like, we might look back on that being, like, the hell what? Like, we needed to give her another nomination. Like, I think Blue Moon is getting a best picture nomination.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, that's.

[David Ehrlich]

Or no, I don't think that. But like, I think that's a distinct possibility. Possibility.

[Richard Lawson]

I like that.

[David Ehrlich]

It's like a sneak into 10th kind of like. Because something's gonna sneak into 10th, right.

[Richard Lawson]

Like I have weapons there right now.

[David Ehrlich]

That's another. Right. That's another fun possibility.

[Alison Wilmore]

Honestly, like, yeah, yeah. I feel like I don't have a good surprise one. I mean my, like my. My main snub feeling is that feeling that Sinners is going to end up getting like missing out on if like.

[David Ehrlich]

Coogler doesn't get a director nomination. That would be very bad.

[Alison Wilmore]

Feeling. Like. Right. I have been getting that feeling. Yeah. I mean I feel like that's, you know, like it will get nominations, but I feel like aside it'll get. Probably it'll get best Picture. But like I can see a world in which. Yeah. Like these other like director. Even screenplay. Like it's just these. These ones where you're like suddenly like, yeah, but someone made this movie.

[Marie]

Where does that feeling come from?

[Alison Wilmore]

Just the. It's all vibes.

[David Ehrlich]

But it's like it's an April genre movie and there's always been that fear of like, do they at the end of the day get distracted by newer stuff?

[Richard Lawson]

And it's very American and the. The director's branch is one international branches that does nominating and they're kind of. They can be less interested in those American stories than.

[David Ehrlich]

Warner Brothers has had a lot of horses this year. So they haven't been able to just be like, we're all in on Sinners this year. Like they had to be all in on a bunch of stuff.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. And I think that although weirdly my.

[David Ehrlich]

Favorite of their movies, the Alto Knights, goes on campaign so well.

[Richard Lawson]

So, I mean. But so far there's still time. That's my surprise pick is the nights.

[David Ehrlich]

I just love thinking about the first three months of Warner Brothers where it was like, Mike DeLuca is being taken out outside and having a bag put over his head. And then the Minecraft movie came out like, oh, forget it.

[Richard Lawson]

Or like, you know, like I went. I took a friend to see alternates because I had to see it for work and we were supposed to hang out that Sunday anyway. I was like, hey, do you want to come? It's. It's, you know, it's like Barry Levinson. Like, it's like there's really.

[David Ehrlich]

How bad could it be? Right?

[Richard Lawson]

And then afterward he like blinked at me kind of wordlessly and finally was like, what the hell did you just take me to? And I Was like, I don't. I don't know. Genuinely.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah, it is funny to also have that be followed Sinners, another dual role movie, but, like, one that, like, is so good with it.

[David Ehrlich]

There were a lot of dual roles and a lot of twins and a lot of that going on. It was when I interviewed Coogler and I was like, why twins? And he was like, twins freak me out, man. I think twins are freaky. He really copped to it. He was like, they fundamentally just kind of scare me.

[Richard Lawson]

He screamed in terror as Jesse Buckley gave birth to twins on Hamnet.

[Alison Wilmore]

There's two in there. Yeah. Well, also, do we have any awards to give out this week?

[Richard Lawson]

I mean, I would give out the award for. To Nikki Glaser for kind of nailing the Golden Globes for the second year in a row, which is tough. I mean, Amy and Tina have done it, but also in a weird way to the Globes for at least making one good choice, you know, because I think.

[David Ehrlich]

And kind of the most fundamental choice like that, you gotta nail that more than anything else.

[Richard Lawson]

And if the host had not been great, which they've definitely had bad hosts in recent years.

[David Ehrlich]

What? Who?

[Richard Lawson]

Well, you know, just a few people, then that whole ceremony would have become. With the poly market, like the cinematic award, whatever. Like, it would have been a really bad night. And so I think that, like, yeah, Nikki Glaser, I think, kind of saved what is, you know, the most crucial Sunday of four season.

[David Ehrlich]

The Globes largely made very good picks. The thing about that show was just like, right, host, good picks. Like, you know, your picks were good. The speeches were largely pretty great. All the other stuff, I was kind of like, no, not trying.

[Richard Lawson]

I know.

[David Ehrlich]

But the fundamental stuff was solid.

[Alison Wilmore]

I would like to give an award out to the aforementioned Astra Awards, my favorite book awards, for being the only group, as far as I know, Oro to bite at the chance to give a novelty win to Indy the dog from Good Boy. They gave an award to the dog for best performance in a horror or thriller. Beating out Ethan Hawke and Alison Brie and some other people. And you know what?

[David Ehrlich]

Imagine going there and they're like, reading the dog.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yes. Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

It's really a horror movie, though.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. I think that it's about the horror of the passage of time and irrelevance. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I just. The kind of shamelessness of that I appreciate, you know.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that dog is good to watch in that movie.

[David Ehrlich]

Can you guys tell me what won the AARP best movie for grownups this year, which is another long running awards ceremony. It's its 25th or 6th edition.

[Richard Lawson]

Let's see.

[David Ehrlich]

Best movie for grownups according to the Hamdew Moon. Hamnew.

[Alison Wilmore]

Oh, no, that's an Oscar villain, as they say.

[Richard Lawson]

As goes aarp, so goes Nation.

[David Ehrlich]

Give them credit for giving best supporting actor to Delroy Lindo and best supporting actress to Regina Hall. Hall.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, that's cool.

[David Ehrlich]

They made some cool picks.

[Richard Lawson]

Like generally for J. Kelly.

[David Ehrlich]

He sure did.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

I mean, he's a grown up.

[Richard Lawson]

Has there ever been a movie more for grownups?

[David Ehrlich]

It's a grown up performance. And then Laura Dern won for. Is this thing on another movie about a tired grownup.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, there are so many retired volleyball players on aarp, so they're like, wow.

[Alison Wilmore]

It'S me on there. This is my story.

[David Ehrlich]

Best intergenerational film, which is sort of their MTV Movie award. Best Kiss. You know the one where they're like, this is kind of us went to Sentimental Value.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, a movie about interest. I think Sentimental Value could perform really well next week at nominations. I also.

[David Ehrlich]

That's a real coin flip where, like its juices seemingly been kind of like missing, but like that. That could have changed very quickly because it's felt like an Oscar movie all year.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Also I have to like. I do. I'm doing the anchor pundits, you know, for Katie Rich at the Ankler.

[David Ehrlich]

I'm doing it too, except I haven't updated it.

[Richard Lawson]

I updated it in like mid December.

[David Ehrlich]

I think I have House of Dynamite still getting like four.

[Richard Lawson]

I took that off in December, but I kind of am like, do I take J. Kelly off all.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

All predictions?

[David Ehrlich]

Jelly.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Jelly's last jam was the aarp.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. All right, one more. Do we know what won the Rotten Tomato Awards presented by Avocados from Mexico.

[David Ehrlich]

I'm sorry, wait.

[Richard Lawson]

Tomatoes represented by Avocados.

[David Ehrlich]

What's going on?

[Alison Wilmore]

It's confusing.

[David Ehrlich]

Add some lettuce.

[Alison Wilmore]

Things are sound sponsorships. Go. The Golden Tomatoes Awards presented by Avocados from Mexico is confusing, though. Okay, so you're halfway to a salsa.

[David Ehrlich]

Is this a juried award or is this to like the highest rated film? Like what? What?

[Alison Wilmore]

Asking me how the.

[David Ehrlich]

Okay, all right, I'm sorry.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, a committee assembles in Oslo, Norway.

[David Ehrlich]

Right.

[Richard Lawson]

No.

[David Ehrlich]

Train Dreams. I don't know.

[Alison Wilmore]

Oh, it was Sinners, which accordingly also feels like the equivalent of the box office award.

[David Ehrlich]

Your tomato. Avocado.

[Richard Lawson]

Yes.

[David Ehrlich]

So if you're one golden tomato and your ceremonial box of opportunity, they throw.

[Richard Lawson]

The award at you, though. It's kind of.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Painful, actually, because it is a heavy.

[Alison Wilmore]

A heavy one too. Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

All right, well, all will be revealed next week.

[Marie]

We should also say that next week's episode is going to come out a little bit later than usual just because of how the Oscar nominations work. But don't worry, we will be covering it.

[Richard Lawson]

David, thank you for being on the show. Where can people find you?

[David Ehrlich]

Oh, well, I'm the host of Boink Check, which you can listen to, I guess, on this very feed.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

I'm a film critic at the Atlantic, so you can. You can see my review of 28 years later, the Bone Temple, which is better than Hamnet. Have you seen. Have you guys seen it?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, I like it.

[David Ehrlich]

It's so good.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[David Ehrlich]

So that's the main places you got. I deleted Twitter, so I'm not on there.

[Richard Lawson]

That was for the best.

[Ben]

I guess.

[David Ehrlich]

I'm on Blue Sky.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Alison Wilmore]

Is anyone on Blue Sky?

[Richard Lawson]

Sure. Allison find you?

[Alison Wilmore]

I don't know.

[David Ehrlich]

Allison, come on. I don't know.

[Richard Lawson]

All right, well. Well, I'm just. Premier party newsletter. The only reason I asked you2 is so I can say my thing.

[Alison Wilmore]

Sign up for his newsletter. So good.

[David Ehrlich]

TikTok just served me the clip again. It's from an old, old Graham Norton where Julie Walters is sitting with, you know, whoever else is there. And Graham's like, julie. And she's like, what? And he's like, how did you meet your husband? She's like, I don't know. Leave me alone. It's the most incredible rejection of the talk show format. She's just like, shut up.

[Richard Lawson]

She's just there to relax on that.

[Alison Wilmore]

So funny.

[David Ehrlich]

Yeah, so that's Allison. I'm like, where can we find you? I'm like, you can't find me. I'm nowher. Yeah.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah. I'm running away from you right now.

[Richard Lawson]

All right, well, you're gonna go to LA and announce the Oscar nominations at five in the morning.

[Alison Wilmore]

Yeah, I've been practicing.

[Richard Lawson]

Can't wait.

[Alison Wilmore]

Critical Darlings is a blank check. Production in association with Vulture Hosted by Alison Wilmore and Richard Lawson Produced by Benjamin Frisch Executive producer produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz Video production and distribution by Ann Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth and Jennifer Jahn.