Critical Darlings: Marty Supreme And The Precursor Circuit with Griffin Newman

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Critical Darlings: Marty Supreme And The Precursor Circuit with Griffin Newman"

Podcast: Blank Check with Griffin & David
Episode: Critical Darlings: Marty Supreme And The Precursor Circuit
Date: January 8, 2026
Hosts: Richard Lawson, Alison Wilmore
Guest: Griffin Newman
Producer: Ben Hosley

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Episode Overview

This episode of Critical Darlings focuses on the evolving shape of the 2025–26 awards season, with a deep dive into awards-show "precursors" (critics' circles, ceremonies, nomination bellwethers), as well as a comprehensive and spoiler-rich discussion of Josh Safdie’s Marty Supreme—its awards campaign, metatextual ambitions, and Timothée Chalamet’s game-changing role both in the film and in Hollywood at large. The hosts and Griffin Newman analyze the unpredictable dynamics of awards races, the impact of performance "real estate" (when an actor appears in a film), industry politics, and changing standards for prestige and likability in Oscar fare.

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[00:00–06:30] NYFCC Awards Dinner: Hangovers, Anecdotes, and Awards Season Kickoff

• The hosts and Griffin debrief after the New York Film Critics Circle (NYFCC) Awards dinner, sharing post-party banter (“Am I still drunk? I don’t know if the system even reset when I slept.” — Griffin, 01:45).
• Describes the surreal, theatrical ambiance of Tao Downtown (the event venue), complete with anecdotes (Ethan Hawke falling into the statue fountain: “If someone was gonna step in the fountain, that was the best possible way for it to happen.” — Alison, 03:23).
• Reflections on the NYFCC’s history and social quirks, with nostalgia for the city’s departed theme restaurants:
  • “Ninja was a restaurant in SoHo... you were served by ninjas. And you'd be like, are they gonna bring bread to the table? And then a guy would, like, appear from the shadows.” (Griffin, 07:29)
• Sets the tone: blend of inside-baseball, warmth, and critical analysis.

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[08:55–14:08] Awards Show "Realness" and Precursor Culture

• Precursor Events: The value, legitimacy, and quirks of early awards shows and critics' groups (NYFCC, Critics Choice, National Board of Review, Gothams, etc).
• Members discuss the “realness” of each group's voting body and ceremonies.
  • “We can start with this. And obviously, this is an organization we're both part of. So it’s incredibly real and very meaningful.” (Alison, 11:27)
• The "food scandal" at the Critics Choice Awards—a running joke about the dire state of awards-show catering (“Pizza in a bag”, “Leonardo DiCaprio sitting in front of like one of these snack plates, not touching it is like very…” — Alison, 15:24).
• On the influence of early awards:
  • "Sometimes they're just off... but you see certain names written out in text, and you go, huh, how does that look? And how does that feel as a winner?" (Griffin, 16:13)

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[16:59–21:54] The Power of Campaigning and Performance Placement

• Importance of seeing contenders "dressed fancy on some kind of stage," and how speeches and moments can shape momentum.
• Discusses the phenomenon of "category fraud"; the trickiness of supporting performances that are really co-leads.
• The potency of “real estate” in a movie—“It is easier for someone to score with a smaller part towards the end because it's about the immediate feelings as you're walking out of the movie.”
• Case study: Amy Madigan in "Weapons" as the late-breaking supporting performer, versus Teyana Taylor, whose impactful performance is in the first act (“By the time One Battle ends, you haven’t seen Teyana Taylor… for about 90 minutes.” — Richard, 24:11)

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[27:52–31:54] Supporting & Bit-Part Performances: Oscar Challenges

• Notable examples of actors who’ve won Oscars for brief, intense roles (Beatrice Straight, Judd Hirsch, Alan Arkin).
• Debate over whether the Academy should introduce a new acting category for “bit parts” or special appearances (“Special Appearance, exactly.” — Ben, 30:33).
• Highlights supporting performances undervalued by the current system.

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[32:04–37:34] Awards Voting Dynamics & Actor Narratives

• Rich conversation about how actors’ reputations, longevity, or “overdue” status can drive the Oscar narrative (Jamie Lee Curtis, Sylvester Stallone, Amy Madigan).
• Politics within Hollywood’s voting bodies, including SAG’s unique dynamics: “A pretty small number who get the call every year... you have to watch everything, prove you've watched everything… then the rest of the union votes for the final award.” (Griffin, 36:13)
• “You do have to kind of... parse, like, okay, which of these, though, are actually meaningful just in general or have any sort of predictive power? And I think it's actually more it's in aggregate.” (Richard, 17:55)

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[37:35–44:29] The "Campaign" as Political Primary; Traction & Turnover

• The hosts liken awards season to the early stages of an American presidential primary, with shifting narratives, momentum, and insider politicking.
• Griffin on “industry juice”: “If you work with [someone], he's got the goods.”
• Reference to surprises and letdowns, like Charles Melton’s snub, and the role of in-person schmoozing.

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[44:52–55:17] Marty Supreme, Timothée Chalamet & the Reinvention of the Campaign

• Richard prompts a discussion on the Marty Supreme campaign.
• Timothée Chalamet is explored as a modern marketing/campaigning master who bridges movie and meme culture:
  • “He very clearly understands the Internet in a way that isn’t just generational. I think he has… a kind of supernatural understanding of that ecosystem.” (Griffin, 46:11)
• The shift from "movie promo" to "Oscar campaign":
  • “Chalamet, from what, November through Christmas was not awards campaigning. He was promoting a movie. And there’s a difference.” (Richard, 45:48)
• Background on the “youngest Best Actor” stat: “If Chalamet wins this year for Marty Supreme, he will be four months older than Adrien Brody was.” (Griffin, 47:44)
• Chalamet’s double-edged metatext: Hollywood’s “future” is resting on him, yet awards tradition resists crowning young men.
  • “If there is anyone who is going to be like, an actual A-list leading man, something that...has started to seem like...maybe is done...he is your guy.” (Alison, 53:13)

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[55:18–66:40] Marty Supreme: Themes, Reception, and Oscar Prognosis

• Deep dive on Marty Supreme's tonal complexity, Safdie’s metatext/storytelling, and Chalamet’s performance.
• Film likened to abrasive, male-centric 1970s Oscar fare, noting how “Mel” (generic old Academy member) taste has shifted from 1950s prestige to ‘70s antiheroism (“My dad is kind of a Mel...But what we think of as a Mel has changed because the Mel is now people who think the best it ever was was...new Hollywood ‘70s.” — Griffin, 65:06)
• Breakdown of the film’s complicated, ambiguous ending; hosts encourage multiple interpretations (“I’ve seen people so confidently argue specifically and intentionally it should only be read this way... There’s something in that ending and its unreadable quality, despite everyone watching it and feeling very strongly.” — Griffin, 75:10–79:01)
• Chalamet’s gift: “He could have just played this role as a straight con man...But he does play it with that sincerity to the point where you can empathize with him.” (Ben, 90:54)
• Marty Supreme as commentary on both Safdie’s career and generational ambitions.

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[96:05–101:46] Best Actor Field, Contrarians, and the Shifting Tastes of the Academy

• Analysis of the Best Actor race: “It was like, best actor this year is stacked...and then so many people fell by the wayside.” (Griffin, 95:50)
• Observes that the apparent frontrunners are now unpredictable. Chalamet and DiCaprio are “straddling it somehow. [Their films are] commercial, it's big, it's America...But performances are weirder than you would expect.” (Griffin, 96:42)
• Tension between “prestige formula” and films with friction, ambiguity, and generational conflict (“You can't just be, here's the formula for like, a kind of prestige movie...those things come and go...you have to have a lot of kind of interesting friction to, like, have any staying power.” — Alison, 97:21)

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[99:30–103:04] Awards and In Memoriams

• “Ethereal Glow” Award to Wagner Moura’s NYFCC white suit and moving speech (“He was attracting light to himself, and he gave a great speech...made me really think...oh, you are the guy that Timmy has to beat.” — Alison, 100:01)
• “In memoriam”: Richard says RIP to his hope that “Frankenstein” wouldn’t be a contender, ultimately seeing the upside if Jacob Elordi wins: “He is apparently a genius. Did you know this? Like, he’s very, very smart. Jacob Elordi. And really into film.” (Richard, 101:10)
• Lighthearted wrap-up, teasing next week’s episode on “Hamnet” and the peculiar phenomenon of awards season backlash.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “This is the problem. I ordered the few small beers, which did turn out to just be three Modelos served to me at once.” — Griffin, [01:26]
• “If someone was gonna step in the fountain, that was the best possible way for it to happen.” — Alison, [03:23]
• “It is easier for someone to score with a smaller part towards the end because it's about the immediate feelings as you're walking out of the movie.” — Griffin, [24:33]
• “He very clearly understands the Internet in a way that isn’t just generational.” — Griffin, [46:11]
• “If Chalamet wins this year for Marty supreme, he will be four months older than Adrien Brody was.” — Griffin, [47:44]
• “My dad is kind of a Mel. And what we think of as a Mel has changed because the Mel is now people who think the best it ever was was...the new Hollywood 70s.” — Griffin, [65:06]
• “You do have to kind of, I think, going back to your question, Alison, then sort of try to parse out, like, okay, which of these, though, are actually meaningful just in general or have any sort of predictive power? And I think it's actually more it's in aggregate.” — Richard, [17:55]
• “He could have just played this role as a straight con man...But he does play it with that sincerity to the point where you can empathize with him.” — Ben, [90:54]
• “But all babies look like Emory Cohen.” — Alison, [78:37]
• “If there is anyone who is going to be like, an actual A-list leading man, something that...has started to seem like...maybe is done...he is your guy.” — Alison, [53:13]

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Key Takeaways

• Chalamet’s Awards Run: Timothée Chalamet is reshaping what an Oscar campaign looks like for young, Internet-native stars—blending eccentric, meme-friendly public appearances with old-school, humble charm when needed.
• Film Themes & Oscar Voter Tastes: Marty Supreme’s abrasive mood, ambiguous ending, and Chalamet’s complex, imperfect lead tap into a new Oscar voter nostalgia for ‘70s antihero movies while pushing the edge on likability.
• Category Shifts: There’s increasing frustration with category fraud and a vocal wish among critics to honor “bit parts” and weird supporting performances that make films pop.
• Industry Dynamics: Oscars voting is deeply shaped by peers’ personal experience, narrative momentum, and perceptions of "who’s due," with the campaign as much about schmoozing and persona management as merit.
• Ambiguity and Discussion: Performances and films that generate discussion, debate, and ambiguity—both in content and in campaign tactics—are maintaining traction in an overcrowded race.

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For Next Week

• Focus will shift to “Hamnet” and the topic of backlash in the awards circuit; expect another lively blend of awards analysis and film criticism.

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Summary prepared for listeners eager for a deep, conversational, spoiler-steeped understanding of the current Oscar landscape and the buzz around “Marty Supreme.”

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Critical Darlings, a conversation about the awards season. Conversation one contender at a time. Please welcome to the stage your hosts, Richard Lawson and Alison Wilmore.

[B]

Well, thank you, Marie, for that lovely introduction. Hello, Allison.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

And I also want to thank producer Ben. Thank you for being here. Very special guest, Papa of the podcast, Griffin Newman of the Blank Check podcast.

[C]

I'm wearing. I'd like to thank my reps and God, of course.

[A]

Oh, yeah, of course.

[B]

In that order, as always. I'm wearing sunglasses right now because I have. Well, I want to do a hangover check because we were all four of us at the New York Film Critics Circle Awards dinner last night, which can be a boozy affair if you want it to be.

[A]

No pressure.

[B]

There was an official after party this year at the Town nightclub, which was sort of surreal. So how are we all doing? Obviously, I have my sunglasses on, so you know how I'm doing.

[A]

But, yeah, I. I'm doing better than I would have thought. I feel like I was pretty restrained. I did not indulge in too many of the themed cocktails that we always have.

[B]

If I had legs, I would kick Yuzu. A few small beers, which I think was just Modelo.

[C]

This is the problem. I ordered the few small beers, which did turn out to just be three Modelos served to me at once.

[D]

So they're like the little ones.

[C]

They're the little ones. But it still adds up to your.

[A]

Like, a regular beer.

[C]

Yeah. And also it gets you in a different headspace to be served three drinks simultaneously and know, like, this is my future. I have this ahead of me.

[B]

It's a beer flight.

[C]

It's a beer flight. It was a beer flight of a very similar flavor. I'm in that tricky zone where the question isn't how hung over am I? It is, am I still drunk? I don't know if the system even reset when I slept.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It wasn't a lot of sleep.

[C]

No.

[A]

So the party's.

[C]

The party's still going strong.

[B]

Oh, good. I'm glad to hear it. Ben, it was your first time. What did you think?

[D]

Yeah, it was fun.

[B]

Yeah. We had quite a table, you and.

[D]

I. Yeah, we were very close to the stage.

[B]

We were, like, up noses, basically. We were very close to Ethan Hawke walking into the fountain by accident, which was.

[D]

Do you want to describe what the Tao looks like?

[B]

So Tao, downtown, which is on 9th Avenue and, like, 16th street, the main dining room is this huge, cavernous space, and at the kind of back, like, you know, the end of the room, Is this huge statue of a religious.

[D]

Figure of thousand armed cannon, I believe.

[B]

Yeah. There you go. Thank you. But what a lot of people don't know if they're a little further back is that statue is in a fountain, like, almost like a koi pond. And it's right where the stages, where these actors and filmmakers are taking getting their awards and the people presenting the awards to them are all crammed in there. And if you make one false step, which Ethan Hawke sadly did after introducing Rose Byrne for Best Actress. And it was a lovely introduction. He was walking her off stage and just walked right into the fountain.

[A]

It's something that I thought about happening so much because once you see the.

[B]

Setup, you cannot have this thought of.

[A]

Like, someone just, like, toppling headfirst into the fountain. So I'm glad that it was Ethan. If it was going to be someone.

[B]

He handled it graciously.

[A]

Yes. And he laughed it off and made.

[B]

A joke about killing a guppy or something.

[A]

Something like that. Yeah. You know, and seemed in high spirits anyway. So if someone was gonna step in the fountain, that was the best possible way for it to happen.

[C]

I was at Alison's table very graciously, seat extended to me, and we were in the back. So there was a kind of a clamor of what just happened. The reaction to Hawke falling was more alarming than anything we could see.

[A]

Right. We just saw that they kind of disappeared out of view. And everyone was like, oh, no, I'm okay.

[D]

I'm okay.

[C]

Yeah. Well, he could.

[B]

Because he could. He had his hand on her arm. He could have taken them both down.

[C]

He could have.

[B]

And then we'd be Carrie Big at Tavern of the Green in Season.

[C]

That's what was interesting was. And there was some Sex in the City crossover last night. It was from our distance. It was like, did she fall and he caught her?

[A]

Yes, that's what I asked. Yes.

[B]

I think he was making room for her because the stairs are so narrow, and he didn't realize that there was no more stage left. And then just ended up stepping into the fountain and then both feet went in because he was balancing himself. I think he was pretty embarrassed, but. And then I saw him later carrying his shoes with a public. He and a publicist, like, made their way to exit.

[C]

How many years have the two of you been in the New York Film Critics Circle? Forever. A decade?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, at least a decade. I don't remember when the decade for.

[B]

Me, because I was so. And I went once before I was in the group, so I Think this was my 10th time.

[A]

Yeah, I went a few times before I was in the group, before it was at Tao, even when it was at some other random places, like this place on the Flatiron used to be.

[B]

At the Sunset Tower.

[A]

And then I got off, it was all bad. Yeah. And. But yeah, it's been at Tao for a long time now, which has been a kind of great, weird spot for it.

[C]

So in nearly a decade of Tao, is that the first time talent has fallen into the fountain?

[A]

Yes, people have almost fallen down before. Because also getting up onto that stage, which is not a real stage, it's.

[B]

A European level of, like, safety standard.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Like, it's.

[B]

It's not, you know, like, there's no ramp. It's not very, like, compliant, let's say.

[C]

Sure. But tout downtown just to kind of paint a picture for the listeners. It is in a basement.

[B]

Sure is.

[C]

And it looks like a set from the end of the Golden Child. It looks like you watch an 80s movie and you're like, how did they build something?

[B]

Or like, Kate Capshaw is going to be singing on stage. And then a big.

[C]

It has some Temple of Doom vibes.

[A]

Or like a John Wick set piece.

[B]

True.

[C]

But you cannot believe that it is a restaurant that is operating people on a nightly basis. It feels like it only exists to test Ethan Hawke's agility. But the podium is so small compared to how massive the space is. And it is such a, like a skill challenge of mobile dexterity.

[B]

Yeah. I wonder. I wonder what other sort of events they do. When I was checking my coat at the beginning of the evening, the woman, like, handing me the ticket for the coat said, have fun tonight. And her co worker was like, have fun. What's happening? And I was like, oh, I don't know that the Tao staff is, like, really prepped for, like, this kind of event, which is fine. But that's the question.

[C]

Like, is it like this every night? Is this indistinguishable to you from, like a lunch on Tuesday?

[A]

Yeah, like, well, in my head, Tao is otherwise a place where you go to take, like, your slightly loopy but still kind of like fun aunt for like a birthday night out, maybe, you know? And like, then you. You end up getting, like, way too drunk and then having a fight outside, and then everyone takes separate cabs.

[C]

I was obsessed with Mars 2112, the dearly departed theme restaurant. Yeah.

[A]

Second only to Ninja, really.

[C]

Ninja was incredible, but Ninja was more elevated. Mars was meant some magician that went around at Ninja. Anyway, I Was I was trying to tell a kid about Ninja, the restaurant, and they were convinced I was lying. They were like this.

[B]

I kind of thought people were lying. I thought when people told me about it, I was like, come on.

[A]

I think about all the time when if you go into Ninja and they were. They were, like, gonna seat you, the guy would say, like, please follow closely, and then vault off down a path. And you would have. And you'd have to be like, where did they go?

[D]

Sorry, what is Ninja?

[C]

Ninja was a restaurant in Soho. I want to say Tribeca. And you'd go downstairs, and the place was, like, nearly pitch dark, and you were served by ninjas. And you'd be like, are they gonna bring bread to the table? And then a guy would, like, appear from the shadows and, like, slam bread down on the table and then, like, cut it with a sword.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And then when they had the menu, they, like, unrolled a scroll across your table, and then there was a.

[B]

It was very culturally sensitive. It was beautiful.

[A]

Yeah. It was a tasteful tribute, too.

[B]

I wish they should just. Tao should just add that feature for the. For the. The dinner, because, you know, it would add. There's plenty of theatrics anyway.

[C]

But I was going to say Mars 2112 was a similarly, like, giant cavernous space in a basement in New York City that was so bizarrely themed. And I went a lot when. The first year of it operation, when it was packed all the time. Many photos of Bill Clinton rubbing shoulders with costumed Martians. And then I remember when it was about to close, I took my little sister, who was much younger, because I was like, you should experience this. And it felt so weird to eat there as the only table. You know, you're like, this is a space that is only meant to be absolutely packed.

[B]

Yeah. Because otherwise, it's like you're on real Mars.

[C]

Right, right. I'm like, if you bring your Lupian to taunt for, like, brunch, is it always packed? Is Ethan Hawke always there?

[A]

Seems likely.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But. But the winners, of course, had been announced in advance.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So the New York Film Critics Circle dinner ends up being an early stage of people auditioning to a certain extent. We've talked about this.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Auditioning how well they fit as a winner, how much people like their speeches, how well they work the room.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I thought that, like, you know, our winners. So we had, like, Rose Byrne won best Actress for if I Had Legs. Wagner Mora won Best Actor for Secret Agent One Battle Won best Picture, Jafar Panahi for one Best director for which is an accident. So some of those people, I think, are like, certainly in the Oscar hunt. But I don't know, Alison, you and I were talking, and I think that of the evening, in terms of, like, okay, who all of a sudden has juice this season that maybe we didn't think did a couple weeks ago, I feel like Wagner Mora is like, really kind of ro Rushing up into that, like, almost guaranteed five.

[A]

Yeah. And I would never guess that when I saw. I mean, I saw that film at Cannes forever ago, I thought it was a great film, but it was never one where I was like, this is definitely an Oscar contender. And yet it seems to be cementing a place for itself, not just in the international race, but, like, in the larger conversation. Like, it is, like, verging on one of the international films that could break into, like, the main pack of this picture.

[C]

I mean, the question this year isn't which is going to be the international film that breaks in the best Picture? It's how many of them are going.

[B]

Going to happen and which isn't going to get in. It's almost a question of that. And I love that. And I also think that in Secret Agents case, the fact that a certain government recently kidnapped a certain South American political leader in a country that's pretty much right next to Brazil or close to Brazil anyway, that added sort of political element of, you know, secret agents about 1970s in Brazil. But, like, there are a lot of parallels to today. And Wagner Moura, like, touched on that during his speech last night. Like, there's a new relevance to that movie that I think only benefits it well.

[A]

And also I think there's a certain enviousness of, you know, what happened with their, you know, FASCI president and where he is now, which was also brought up in the speech. But I would also, I would like to. To bring up a new rubric at this point, because I feel like this. We're entering the phase in which we are going to have new awards given out by different groups, like, basically every week. This rubric is how real are these awards? And I feel like there are two halves of this, right?

[B]

Oh, it's a good question.

[A]

One half you have, like, the who is like, voting on these awards, right? Like, what is the body deciding these awards? And on the other half, you have, like, the ceremony itself, if there is one, and how, like, kind of legitimately awards it is. And we can start with this. And obviously, this is an organization we're both part of. So it's incredibly real and very meaningful.

[B]

Well, it's, it's, it's old.

[A]

It is.

[B]

It's almost as old as the Oscars.

[A]

Yeah. Like, so they're of the many critic groups out there.

[B]

It is, it's 90 something years old.

[A]

Yeah, it's the oldest. And it is one of the big. Depending on how you.

[B]

It's Las Vegas, three or four.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Film Critics association, then us.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

I'm pretty sure.

[A]

But yeah, like, you know, you have the New York Film Crit Circle, you have the, you have the Los Angeles one.

[B]

And then you have National Society.

[A]

National Society and if you want to count it, National Board of Review, which is like a more mysterious body that we can talk about next.

[B]

I like the mysterious bodies because I think that mysterious body is like, oftentimes, what makes one question how real an awards ceremony is? You know, like the Critics Choice Awards happened this past weekend. I know maybe a couple people who are in the Critics Choice association, but given how many critics. I know, I know far too, like fewer critics in that group than I thought I would. You know, like, I'm not in it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I'm not in it.

[A]

Like just close off the New York Film Critics, like, we're what, like maybe 40ish members. I should have actually looked this up.

[B]

Yeah, it's low 40s, I think.

[A]

But like, you know, many of whom work for just like a big publication, some of them are freelance, but like, it's a fairly compact group of people. The membership is public. The voting is done.

[C]

Is secret.

[A]

Secret, but is announced as it go. And then the ceremony is like a real one that the winners mostly show up to.

[B]

I think that the publicists do a good job of explaining to winners who are not familiar with our little shindig that it actually is like prestigious and.

[A]

It has a history.

[B]

People know it has a history.

[A]

But it is not televised also.

[B]

For now.

[A]

For now. So I would say, like, on the scale of realness, it's fairly good.

[B]

Bari Weiss is interested in getting it for cbs, but we'll see.

[A]

We could have captured the Ethan Hawke stepping in and done it from different angles. Replays. But yeah, like, let's say the Critics Choice Association.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which those Critic Choice Awards which happened, as you pointed out this week as.

[B]

Well, they're about 30 years old.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

The televised ceremony is way younger than that, I'm pretty sure. But. And the televised ceremony is like on. I think I, I have like Hulu Live tv. I think I watched it on E. Entertainment yes, yes, I did. That's.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And it's a kind of janky affair. I was told last night that it's. It's actually in an airplane hangar at the small Santa Monica airport. They apparently close a Runway. So apparently it's an operational airport. They close a Runway during the Critic Choice Awards to do this award show. But you can see where they've like hung some like, you know, high school theater black velvet curtains and put some. It's a very industrial space, you know.

[A]

I mean, what I love is just that every year it goes viral for the food because, you know, kind of.

[C]

Fire festival esque dinners.

[A]

Yes, exactly. I think there was a. A year or two ago they had like pizza in a bag.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[A]

You know, and this year they had basically come. Yes, basically. Like when you are taking a cross country flight and you're like so hungry and you're like, can I pay $14 to get the snack plate? Which is like, you know, a cluster of grapes and like three cheese cubes and a cracker.

[C]

You say plate. Let's be honest, it's usually a box. It's a box.

[A]

It's a box. I think this was basically a box. Like it, like a box that had been emptied out and that's what they served. And do you know what? Like, it's fine. Most people are not going to these things to eat. But like the Visual of Leonardo DiCaprio sitting in front of like one of these snack plates, like, not touching it is like very.

[B]

He couldn't even afford comfort. Plus, like, it's embarrassing.

[C]

It is what is interesting about the psychology of the larger award season. Right. You say the National Board of Review, which is the somewhat mysterious group, but for many decades, their defining feature was that they were the first thing announced. So there was some importance put on it. Not that it has any overlap necessarily with any other major voting bodies, just because they were the first people to publish. Here are who we've chosen. Here's our top 10. Here are acting. It starts to coalesce around certain picks, right? You go, maybe that person has more juice than we thought. In other cases, there are National Board of View things where it's like, Will Forte won best supporting actor for Nebraska. Everyone goes, I guess he's a contender. Received no other noms for the rest of the season. Yeah, you know, Tim Burton won best director for Sweeney Todd. I mean, sometimes they're just off. And much like the Golden Globes, you go like, who are these people and what is their impact or influence? But you see certain names written out in text, and you go, huh, how does that look? And how does that feel as a winner? Right. And the critics choice words similarly, because it is televised, you have a larger number of people watching someone like Amy Madigan get to the stage and go, huh, how does this feel? You know, you're sort of like using the feature in the app to see the piece of furniture in your home. You're flashing forward to how will history look upon this as a winner? And part of it is, you know, the speech they give when they're up there. But part of it, too, is just sort of seeing them dressed fancy on some kind of stage.

[B]

Does this feel right?

[C]

Does this feel like this would be a good moment at the big show?

[B]

And it's funny that, like, all these early, like, New York Film Critics Circle is part of this, like, these earlier awards things, like the precursors, they're called. You know, it used to be there was sort of a gentleman's agreement that, like, yes. And National Board of Review is first. New York Film Critics is like, right after. Then Golden Globe nominations come out.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's the sort of order of things. And then the Gotham Awards came in and were like, ah, ah, ah, we're gonna be first. And then in recent years, the Critics Choice association has been like, okay, all of you guys do that first, but we're the first televised. And then this year, the Gothams were streaming on. Well, they were. They were broadcast on, actually, like, I think 55, like. Like local affiliates.

[C]

Oh, really?

[B]

Around the country. And then you could stream it on YouTube, I think. And so now. Now can you really say that the Critics Choice Awards are the first televised if the Gothams is doing it, so.

[C]

What is TV anymore? The Oscars are going to YouTube.

[B]

So this year it was. This is the first televised cere of the year because it's a new year, so not of the season. And you do have to kind of, I think, going back to your question, Alison, then sort of try to parse out, like, okay, which of these, though, are actually meaningful just in general or have any sort of predictive power? And I think it's actually more. It's in aggregate. It's like, if you can step back and be like, well, Amy Madigan gave a great speech at New York Film Critics Circle, which only people in the room saw. She also was. Gave a nice, humble, genuine speech at Critics Choice Awards, which many more people saw. So just that combined, I'm like, okay, she really has the juice.

[C]

I will say earlier Yesterday in the morning, there was a 10:30am screening of weapons, a guild screening with our friend Esther Zuckerman doing a Q and A with Amy Madigan afterwards. And the feeling of everyone in that room. And I heard many people say that out loud after the Q and A. She's winning.

[D]

Right.

[C]

There was this feeling of this campaign. Feels like it's making sense.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

A. There's sort of a, like, as we look back on the year, does Weapons need to get something right? Right. We all love this movie. This performance made such a cultural impact. Best supporting actresses felt very kind of odd and cloudy and there was sort of kind of default assumptions. I feel like even when the movie came out, people were like, but it's summer. Is this really going to be able to stay in the Oscar conversation? How often do they go for genre stuff like this? And it just feels like she's stealthily getting stronger and stronger and stronger. And I think, you know, she made two non televised speeches in New York City yesterday, basically where it just felt like in the room. Pretty good.

[A]

Yeah. She's also. She has a good story, right?

[C]

She does.

[A]

She's like this incredible actress who's been like working for such a long time, has done amazing, like just amazing work that has felt underappreciated forever.

[C]

Yes. I think that's a huge part of it. I think there's an interesting Oscar narrative which is not considered that often. Right. There are the. This person is so overdue. We're finally going to break the curse to give you the kind of inevitable Oscar. Right. There's the sort of like, like when.

[B]

They finally gave it to Alicia Vikander and it was like, oh my God, finally. Where have we been? We can all relax for like two years. Yeah.

[C]

There's the sort of like Kean, Brendan Fraser, both in the same year, comeback.

[B]

Performance to make a wish. Yeah, sorry. But that's what it felt with Fraser. That's what it felt like.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But some sort of comeback, some reinvention. Right. And then there are people like Amy Madigan where you're like, huh, she has always been good. You know, where people step back. She never fully disappeared. There were points in time where she was more visible when she was in larger films. But suddenly the right performance at the right moment in the right season, people go like, yeah, you know, maybe we do just give it to her now.

[D]

Is there also something maybe to her transformation? I could not have picked her out out of a crowd yesterday, you know, seeing her as Aunt Gladys. And then she steps up and she's, you know, beautiful woman. Does that. I don't know. Is that.

[A]

I think that's part of it. Yeah. I do think also it helps. That is just like, a kind of really standout, you know, like, like, catchy supporting performance, whereas a lot of the other supporting performances this year, while very good in supporting actress, are, like, part of, like, a larger ensemble. So, like, the narrative of, like, who is going to be the person, you know, like, in this movie who is, like, the supporting kind of, like, presumptive, like, supporting kind of nominee, I think has made it trickier for, like, a lot of, like, great turns, I think, like, to get that surefire traction. Whereas, like, there is no question in Weapons, like, this is, like, a real standout supporting performance, you know, and it has gotten that character kind of traction. Yeah.

[C]

David.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

This episode of Blank Check is brought to you by Square. And it's hip.

[A]

It's hip to be a square.

[C]

Don't get defensive, okay. Some of my favorite murderers have told me that it's hip to be a square. I speak of Patrick Bateman. Of course, there are certain businesses that.

[D]

Make the neighborhood the neighborhood.

[C]

Griffin and I have found in my travels that your favorite neighborhood spots often run on square.

[B]

Look, I think I probably interact with.

[C]

A square terminal more than I interact with, like, a subway, you know, like, turnstile everywhere.

[D]

You know what I mean? Like, it's just like getting a cup.

[C]

Of coffee, getting a bagel, getting a pizza. I live in New York, okay?

[B]

Okay. Like, I'm always.

[C]

I'm always tapping my little watch on the squares. I love doing the tap. I do my watch. I feel like Gregory Hines doing a little tap.

[D]

Very good, Very good.

[C]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[D]

Yeah. Square. These are, you know, works for businesses.

[C]

That make the neighborhood of the neighborhood. Like I said, when those businesses thrive.

[D]

The whole neighborhood thrives. Money spent in the neighborhood stays in the neighborhood.

[C]

So take this ad as an excuse to go support your favorite local spot.

[D]

And have yourself a day in the neighborhood. A beautiful day in the neighborhood.

[B]

Mariel Hill.

[C]

I was gonna say Mr. Rogers. And look, also, obviously, very often you.

[B]

Go to see a comedy show, you.

[C]

Go to a concert, you go to see off Broadway theater, you're gonna be dealing with some square right there. When we do live shows, we use square to sell our merchandise. Square makes these businesses a lot easier to run. Absolutely. It makes it. We use square. Yeah, that's what I just said. It makes it so easy for us as a small business to be able to sell merch. We use that at our recent art show. Absolutely. It just makes the whole process. So it makes the ability to provide these culturally enriching things and spaces a lot more accessible in a very, very crazy, complicated economy. Is that what I was trying to say? Yeah.

[D]

You can go to square.com, go check to learn more.

[C]

But before you do, go support your favorite neighborhood spot. You'll be happy you did. See you in the neighborhood.

[B]

If Madigan is, I think, pretty far out ahead right now.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

In second place is Tiana Taylor, who's so incredible in one battle after another. The problem is she leaves the movie. Whereas Amy Madigan shows up in the movie toward the end, so you get your last impression is of her. Whereas by the time one battle ends, you haven't seen Teyana Taylor, who's again, amazing in the movie. You haven't seen her on screen for about 90 minutes.

[C]

This is a great conversation topic and one I've pinned to all of our various planning docs. It's something I want to make sure is talked about at some point within the season. This feels like a good opportunity. The importance in where your real estate in a movie is for a supporting performer that I feel like very often it is easier for someone to score with a smaller part towards the end because it's about the immediate feelings as you're walking out of the movie. And weapons builds to her. You know, you have your couple of jump scare moments, but I think she really doesn't have a line of dialogue until the last 30 minutes.

[B]

She's the answer to all the movie's questions.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And it's so satisfying when she shows up and you're like, ah, okay, it's which.

[C]

And the movie basically rests on the success or failure of her. Right. It's all building to if this doesn't.

[B]

Work, they fired Vikander after two days on set.

[C]

But if this performance doesn't work, the movie's gonna unwrap.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And not only did it not happen.

[B]

But people really kind of sparked deus ex Madigan. I mean, she. She kind of. Because I. I don't love that movie. And I think a lot why I don't love it is because I think that it feels very like made up and sort of random. Like he's kind of just like, it's a witch. But she justifies that.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

You know, she's like, okay, I know that you. This is sort of just like you had to come up with an ending and here it is. I'm gonna sell it for you. And it works well.

[A]

I think it's also she. She is very frightening at first and then she's very funny. You know, she's like sinister but like very funny in the end. And I think the ability to emerge first as this like kind of like terrifying specter, like pop up specter. And then to be. To kind of cohere into this like. Like much funnier and then kind of campier, dimensionalized.

[C]

Yeah. And it's also. It's. The more she shows, the more questions you have. It's. It's an interesting performance and that it does feel very specific and considered. But there are still mysteries within it that I think help the movie retain some power. Teyana Taylor, the first wave of responses as critics saw it a couple weeks before it got wide release, I was seeing everyone just go like, well, I guess Teyana Taylor's winning. There was this presumptuous thing, right? And I remember being surprised when I saw the movie that the first 30 minutes are basically owned by her, but it almost feels like an extended prologue. And then she disappears. And she is fantastic in it. I think the saving grace only in terms of speaking in awards campaign language, is that the movie circles back to her as an idea at the end of the film.

[B]

Even though she does well, she goes over everything. It's Sean Penn's obsession with her that drives the whole plot.

[C]

But I also think she comes before anyone who has not seen one battle after another, yet she comes back into the film in voiceover at the very end, which I do think kind of pins you back.

[B]

That's true.

[C]

Pins her back in your brain a bit. But I have felt this whole time that she was the assumed frontrunner, that that was going to be a vulnerability to her perhaps. And it's what you said, it's the difference between a character leaving a movie and character.

[B]

I mean, look, you have examples from the past, you know, is it Beatrice, straight from network, who won a sporting actress Oscar? She has one scene, one monologue in the middle of the movie and then is not never seen before or after. Those days, I think are. I think that would be really hard, especially when you have a lot of supporting performances or wins that are actually kind of co leads.

[C]

Judd Hirsch and Fabelman's was that kind of nomination.

[B]

That was a good nomination for that.

[C]

And he got a slot that was sort of assumed to be Paul Dano's who is bordering on a lead in that movie. You know, I think it still can happen.

[B]

It has to happen with the monkey. They were running in leads. So that was the issue that was.

[C]

Yeah, I think it's, it's rarer that it happens these days and the, the elements need to really align. And I think a lot of it, as you said, is sort of a category fraud issue. Not to throw the big ominous words around, but I think William Hurt is kind of another one. But that was towards the end of the movie and also is now like 20 years ago. But like Alan Arkin winning for Little Miss Sunshine.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

A very surprising win.

[B]

He was competing against all these little girls in this beauty pageant. And why is this old man whatever.

[C]

And his dance was very risque.

[B]

Oh, it was really. Yeah.

[C]

But that's a movie. Spoilers for 20 year old little Miss Sunshine in which he dies in the first act. And I remember seeing it in theaters and going, God, he's so good in this. It would kind of be cool if this was like an overdue Alan Arkin anointment moment. And when he died at the 30 or 40 minute mark, I was like, there goes that campaign. That's over sometimes.

[B]

And then Eddie Murphy showed up and they were like, oh, well, clearly he's gonna win for Dreamgirls. And that was kind of the narrative all season.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And then Norbit came out.

[C]

I think sometimes these things can betray their own logic of how they often operate. And Hershel Ali in Moonlight is another one where it's a little similar to Tiana Taylor where it's like he's gonna own the first chapter of this movie and then he is gone and his absence continues to echo. But you have to make a really, really strong impression to be the person that people walk out of the movie thinking about when there's been an hour plus of the movie after your exit.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, yes. I also think, like, I, I would love to see more weirder, smaller, like supporting actors harder.

[B]

I kind of almost want them to come up with a third tier. Yeah, like lead. Either co lead or supporting lead. And then like bit part or whatever.

[D]

Special appearance.

[B]

Special appearance, exactly. Like we were talking about Secret Agent. There is an actress in that whose name I'm not remembering, but her character is Donna Sebastiana. She's this wonderful old lady. She's incredible. But she's only in like a couple scenes. I don't know that she would qualify as like a viable supporting run, but it's like. But there should be awards for that kind of turn.

[A]

Yeah. Or like my colleague Bilga has been talking up Matthew Lillard in Life of Chunk a lot.

[C]

Write up a one scene performance. Astonishing.

[B]

He's one of performance in that movie. But, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, we don't really have a space for that, I guess. I don't give it to.

[B]

Well, maybe with the Oscars on YouTube, where they're not caring about runtime.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

We could just add a third. I mean, two more acting wins, I think.

[C]

20 more categories. Regina Hall, I love her performance so much in one battle after another, but it is, by design, a very small performance, a largely silent performance. She's around for a lot of the movie, but she doesn't get a big Oscar moment. And I think the work she's doing is so important. I think it's, like, important to the movie working, but it is kind of yeoman's work. And it feels silly to even, like, present her into the conversation at some times where you're like, well, Teyana Taylor has, like, 40 minutes of being a whirling dervish that sets the entire movie into action. And Regina Hall's just kind of, like, floating throughout.

[A]

That big moment is, like, one in which she is kind of reacting with, like, tears. Right. Like, in this moment of kind of, like, crushing understanding of her own, like, inability to kind of, like, keep going.

[C]

I love her. She is one of my favorite working actors. I think she is, like, long overdue for, like, a full kind of moment. New York Film Critics Circle gave her best actress for Support the Girls years ago, which I think started this kind of second wave of have we been undervaluing this person for?

[B]

And you know what I loved about that, by the way, is when. Because, you know, in my mind, I was like, that's such a cool win. Which it was. And she's going to be so surprised, and, like, it's going to be so great. When she showed up to accept the award, she was gracious and lovely, whatever, but she was also kind of like, yeah, thank you.

[A]

Like, about time.

[B]

Yeah. And that was nice. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. But I. I think I saw the movie and said to my friend, she's so good in that. And it's to the movie's credit that it doesn't give her the big monologue that could so easily win her an Oscar. You're like, there's a version of that character that has a more explosive moment, and it would just need to be one basically sustained for 30 seconds for her to be a serious contender. And I think it makes the performance and the film more powerful to avoid that. But also, it probably has cost her being in the race.

[B]

Well, it would be funny if she did have that moment, and Then it was a question of, like, how do we campaign Tiana and Regina? Because they're trying to figure that out with Benicio Del Toro and Sean Penn on the supporting actor side, where, you know, the prevailing wisdom since September was like, well, Sean, Pennsylvania is definitely getting nominated, could win. I mean, the scuttlebutt from la, Kyle Buchanan. Other people out there are like, oh, no, Sean Penn is everyone's best supporting actor choice. And then Benicio del Toro wins at New York Film Critics Circle. He won at National Society of Film Critics. Like, he's kind of showing up more and more and giving a lovely speech, I thought, at New York. And it's like, wait, so now they have to kind of juggle those two campaigns, but not, you know, slight one or favor the other. And it would be. I would love to see them to have to do that with supporting actress.

[C]

But I mean, here's. You're. You're reminding me now. Critics Choice Awards gave awards lead awards to Jesse Buckley and Timothee Chalamet, who are basically considered the front runners.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Buckley is many laps ahead of her competitors. Yes, I think Chalamet is maybe one.

[A]

Well, but I also. Is Buckley still as far ahead of her competitors at this point? You know, like, I feel like a lot of people may be presuming that she was going to be like the shoo in for when we get to the biggest award.

[B]

Well, she keeps interrupting, accepting stage performances, and then that's getting on people's nerves. You know, she's jostling and yelling.

[C]

I mean, at the. The morning we're recording this, we're a couple hours away from the SAG nominations getting announced.

[A]

The actor awards.

[C]

I'm sorry, the actor Awards. The actors. Griffin. And that is always such an interesting bellwether because it's the first time you're getting major nominations from people who also will vote for the Oscars.

[A]

Yes. And obviously from actors as opposed to, like, so far it's been a lot of people who are like actors outside of the industry.

[B]

Horrible, wretched gremlin journalists. Exactly.

[A]

Emerging from our caves.

[C]

Let's be clear. Sag, aftra, especially post a merger, is a very, very large.

[B]

Tiktokers are in there.

[C]

Tiktokers are in there. And after Weathermen are in there. You know, it's a varied organization, but there is some overlap. And because the union is so big, you basically get an email telling you you're part of the nom. Com, the nominating committee this year, as if it is jury duty. If you do it you're out of the pool for like another seven, 10 years.

[B]

You can get out of it by saying you're racist. Right. But it's, it's a, they'll dismiss you.

[C]

It's a pretty small number who get the call every year. And then you have to watch everything, prove you've watched everything or as much of everything as you can. You get to nominate and then the rest of the union votes for the final award.

[D]

Have you done this?

[C]

I did it once, yeah. Yeah. And I have a friend who's been on it this year. It's interesting, I mean, because I think the names in the nom com are made public or at least accessible to the distributors and the publicists.

[B]

So they can, they can court you.

[C]

They can, they can. Now I got called to do it in 2021, which is just about the worst year.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

I was not, I was not getting the cocktail party perks new.

[A]

No. No one is flying you to Hawaii to, to for a special screening.

[C]

Correct.

[B]

But you got the vaccine earlier.

[C]

Yes. Yeah, that was the benefit of it. So it's, it's, it's interesting because in some ways it's very indicative. There are always some real, real weird left turn nominees, I think from sag and a lot of that is the nominating committee is chosen early in the season. It feels like sometimes they will latch onto an earlier contender whose narrative has maybe already collapsed. They're the last remnant of an abandoned campaign. But, but it does start to, I don't know, show some more support. And actors are the largest voting body within the Academy. So even if it's just sort of like, here's a snapshot of the psychology of actors and what they're liking as a general group, it does start to show strength not just for certain performances, but certain movies. Amy Madigan, one supporting actress at the Critics Choice. We're saying she's now possibly, quite probably the front runner. Jacob Elordi won best supporting actor for Frankenstein, which he has been in that he's probably getting nominated. Right. He seems like a pretty strong spot.

[B]

So I did the ankler pundits thing for our friend Kitty Rich and I did not have Elordi in my best supporting actor five. And now I'm like, wait, why didn't I have that? Frankenstein was on all the Oscar shortlists. It clearly is a contender in a way that I refuse to believe after seeing the movie.

[A]

Right. But I think also like he, if they're like four acting awards and he's.

[B]

Really, he is good.

[A]

He is but he's much easier. It's like it's a safer nomination than say Oscar Isaac, who I think you can argue, I would argue is like miscast in that role.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so like he's still floating around as well. But Elordi, I think everyone can get behind to be like, this is a good performance.

[C]

It's interesting because even I feel like the first reactions to the movie playing at festivals were pretty mixed and disappointed.

[D]

Right.

[C]

But the takeaway was like, Elordi is really good in this. And it almost felt like maybe this ends up being a weird lone nomination, you know, his work in a film that doesn't quite work, you know, is this a Stanley Tucson, you know, whatever. Right.

[B]

To date, Stanley Tucci's only Oscar nomination is for the playing a pedophile murderer in the Lovely Bones.

[C]

Right, right. It collapsed.

[B]

A movie that Ryan Gosling gained weight for and then got fired from.

[C]

Yes, yes. And then I was fat and unemployed is his quote. But. But now that like Frankenstein seems to have so much heat around it as a movie in general, he feels even stronger as a contender. I no idea if that's like a one off. And he will continue to just be a gracious nominee for the rest of the season, not win any other war. But it does remind you that when you get into this, this time of year, right before SAG kind of kicks the next phase into gear, I would say has been very front loaded with the opinions of critics. And certain contenders start to get a lot stronger. Right. Rose Burns gets a lot stronger. Wagner Moore gets a lot stronger. Benicio starts to become a consensus pick. But there are certain movies like Hamnet that just, it feels like they just.

[B]

Lie in waves, truly. Until it's time.

[C]

Jesse Buckley has been having a lot of nice downtime and now is about to spend three months giving acceptance speech.

[B]

Well, I remember last. Was it last year, right, or no. Two years ago when Oppenheimer was, you know, sort of. It came out in the summertime and then it kind of went quiet for a bit and then it, you know, New York film critic circle gave it a number of awards, but the big question was like, like Robert Downey Jr. And during all the critics awards season in December, January, he wasn't showing up, he wasn't winning Supporting actor. I don't remember who we gave it to, but like, whatever.

[C]

But do you remember who was starting to stack up the most?

[B]

Who was who? I don't remember.

[C]

Charles Melton.

[B]

Charles. Charles Melton for May, December.

[A]

And, and that was. He was A critic's favorite. You know, like, he is incredible.

[B]

And then what ended up happening was Charles Melton didn't get nominated. Nominated. And then obviously Downey Jr won. And the word from LA was like, yeah, idiots. He had won that award back in July. Like, there was no question. He didn't have to campaign. He didn't need to be at the New York Film Critics Circle dinner. It doesn't matter.

[A]

I would say also, like, you know, there's this whole world, and I don't want to, like, make this seem like it is too much of, like, a way of, like, getting to, like, you know, glad hand with someone at a party or something. But, like, obviously, like, him showing up at an event and, like, people getting to talk to him as someone who has been like, you know, they have watched in movies forever and have, like, a long personal history with. And he can be really charming at parties. Like, I think that that makes a difference too, you know, like, if you're doing Charles Melton where you're, like, making this first bid for, like, being. I am a serious actor, I am capable of more things. Like, you are bringing a lot less kind of valuable history with you than someone like Robert Downey Jr. Who, you know, people want to, like, want to salute in this way.

[C]

Right. I think there's another part of it too, which is, you know, for the Oscars, the nominations are done by Branch. People nominate in their field. Yes.

[B]

Oh, okay. He does all of them.

[C]

All of them. Your favorite troll, the grumpy troll. But it means that, you know, there's the cinematography pics are coming from cinematographers who have a real understanding of what makes work stand out. Right. But then when you get to the final votes, everyone votes in every category. Right. And sometimes I think, especially with actors in the acting categories, what comes into play is how many projects those people have done, how many voting members they have worked with and their opinion of them. Right?

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[C]

Not. Not in like a sort of cronyism way, but someone like Jamie Lee Curtis who was not seen as strong of a contender. You're like, here's someone who for 40 years just has a really good reputation in the industry and you're a sound guy and you're like, you know, who's a class act? Jamie Lee Curtis. I worked with her like twice, 20 years ago, and I always really liked her. And, man, she has put in good work, you know, And I do think beyond. Sometimes you will hear people say, like, they gotta give it to Robert Downey Jr. Look at how much money he has made for the industry, as if that's what they're rewarding. And I don't think that psychology comes into it that much. I do think a lot of it comes into who did I like working with and who was difficult.

[B]

That's why Sylvester Stallone, it's the one I always didn't win. Supporting actor for Creed, even though he was the frontrunner going into that night. And then Mark Rylance, who granted, you know, not a lot of people had worked with, but they were like, he was great in that movie. And also, we were not voting for Stallone.

[C]

Stallone was winning every single award up until that point. Until you let crew members vote and suddenly Stallone collapses on Oscar night.

[A]

I mean, Stallone has some of the, like, most famous urban. Urban legends attached to him regarding his value.

[C]

But that's the clearest example of that I feel like in recent memory.

[D]

The more you guys talk about this, the more this just feels like you're talking about the Iowa caucuses or something like the. The order of things, the way that people are jockeying for order and then the way that the actors have to glad hand and how they appear in, you know, around other people. It really makes sense why they call it a campaign.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I mean, also, to Griffin's point, and Richard, we do kind of come at this from the outside in. So you start with a lot of critics groups and a lot of people who, like, watch a lot of movies but are not part of the industry. And then we get closer and closer.

[B]

It winnows down and then it widens again. But it's.

[A]

But it is. Ultimately you have different types of awards and you have the people who, like, kind of comment on film until we ultimately get the entire industry. I am your host, Stassi Schroeder. Welcome to Tell Me Lies, the official podcast. What's the most unhinged thing of season three?

[C]

Steven.

[B]

Because he's so evil, I do think he is misunderstood.

[C]

You see, everyone they consequences.

[A]

It's intoxicating. The writers just know how to trick ya. There's always a twist in this show. It's nothing you would expect. Tell Me Lies, the official podcast January 6th and stream the new season of Tell Me Lies January 13th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.

[B]

We are gathered here today to talk a bit about Marty Supreme. But I think it's great to bring up campaigning because Timothee Chalamet, who did win at Critics Choice Awards this past weekend, is. Has he reinvented campaigning or is he just doing Old school campaigning with a different kind of skin on it. Like. Yeah, I have. I don't know what he's doing, but it seems to be working this year.

[A]

So I have. I will say, I think that we're looking at him at this point of transition, and I think the Critics Choice Award speech, which we can talk about is like this tipping point. But I do think what he has been doing, like, previous to this, this almost avant garde, but also, like, incredibly, like, I don't know, like, game to do anything promotional campaign has been in service of, like, promoting the film first.

[C]

Right. Method marketing.

[B]

And I think that's a great distinction to make. Is that Chalamet, from what, November through Christmas was not awards campaigning. He was promoting a movie.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And there's a difference.

[A]

And he has been very good at it in this incredibly weird way from going on Druski. Right. Like doing that. That. Like doing pre auditions for Druski's video, including. It's still, like, lodged in my head. The moment where someone, like, vogues up to him and then blows him a kiss and he catches it and says, receive.

[B]

That was Alicia vacation.

[A]

Yeah, that was. She's so talented.

[C]

He very clearly understands the Internet in a way that isn't just generational. I think he has.

[B]

He's a famous Twitter lurker.

[C]

Yes. But a kind of supernatural understanding of that ecosystem and what catches on. Right. And I think you can tell the difference between he is driving these moments versus someone being told, you have to go on chicken shop date.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You have to go on hot ones. Right. The things he's picking are clearly things he's identified, things he likes, understands how he would mesh well in this world. And I think, you know, there's been a two pronged Timmy narrative this year. Right. He almost wins last year is sort of the feeling.

[B]

And I think the feeling is also should have won. You know, we talked about it. We've talked about it off mic. But, like, it was the moment that Adrien Brody threw his gum to Harvey Weinstein's ex wife.

[C]

Immediate buyer's remarks.

[B]

You could see in the audience the Academy being like, God damn it, we voted for the wrong one.

[A]

And that's this again. This guy again.

[C]

And then he gets up and makes a 20 minutes.

[B]

And it's also, like, vaguely offensive at points that it was just like. It was just like a mistake just sort of made manifest.

[C]

Yes. And I. Farish. I don't know if you know this, but Adrien Brody still holds the record for the youngest best actor winner ever.

[B]

29.

[C]

If Chalamet had beaten Adrien Brody last year for a complete unknown, he would have claimed the record by a couple months.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[C]

If Chalamet wins this year for Marty supreme, he will be four months older.

[B]

That's right, yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Than Adrien Brody was, I believe. Or. Yeah, it's three or four months. Yeah.

[D]

Isn't it weird that women get to win Best Actress at like age four?

[C]

Yes, yes. It's a much discussed thing.

[A]

You have to age.

[B]

Well, Cher was three when she shot Moonstruck and then four when she was.

[C]

The amount of Best Lead actress winners under the age of 30 versus literally one time it has happened in Best Lead Actor and he was like 29 and nine months.

[B]

But this is the great question about Timothee Chalamet as an, you know, his first nomination was God, I mean, like eight years ago, Right. For Call Me by youy Name. And then hadn't shown up again in the. Until complete unknown. But the thinking about him has been for the better part of a decade. Like obviously the industry likes him. He's a great actor. He's cute, he's charming. He can open movies. It turns out, like his movies make money. Be they, you know, a Roald Dahl musical or a biopic about a, you know, whatever.

[C]

For such a specific unconventional type, he found his two tentpoles.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Where he was perfectly cast and they appealed to different audiences. And suddenly you're like, this guy is Dune. He's like Paul Atreides and Willy Wonka. He's got like two kind of iconic characters that he can return to that can help sort of like like a hammock of his smaller person, an action.

[A]

Lead and this kind of like real theater kiddie like role, as well as.

[B]

The titular boy and beautiful boy, you know, like, you know, but like, but the thing about hanging over him is that like, well, the Academy does not give Oscars Best Actor Oscars to young men.

[C]

They want to make you the rubric.

[B]

Being the, you know, the straight old men in the Academy, they vote for the woman they want to sleep with and the man they want to be. And they don't want to be a 28 year old pipsqueak. You know, they, you know, if I.

[C]

Think they view him as a threat. And before Adrien Brody, the youngest Best actor record was held by Richard Dreyfus, who won, I think at 31 or 32.

[B]

But look hard, 36.

[C]

He was like the most middle aged man from like 20 on where by the time he won it was like he's been around for, like, six decades. Right.

[A]

I will have to say, though, like, shout out to how good Adrien Brody is in that movie, that despite how incredibly annoying he is.

[B]

Yes, it was undeniable.

[C]

It was undeniable.

[A]

Like, you just. They were like, no, we gotta give it to him. And then, yes, immediately he goes up and is like, remember how annoying I am.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Chalamet, I would say, had a really difficult challenge ahead of him going into this season. You have that energy of, do we already regret not giving it to you last year? So now we're looking for an opportunity to possibly give it to you again. Right. Here is what is possibly the most expensive film A24 has ever made. It's not an obviously commercial project. He's staking his whole movie star Persona on it. This can't just be, well, I do Dune over here, but I want this to win an Oscar. He needs this to connect commercially. And part of that is everything he's learned from Wonka and Dune and Oscar campaigning and just generally being a poster to figure out how to make this movie feel like an event to young people to have this play like a mainstream blockbuster film, which it has done up until.

[B]

That was Mission A. And then immediately after Mission B, which maybe. I don't know how much he cares about it, but, like, was. Okay. Now we're switching into awards mode. So it was very interesting at the critics choice. I thought he would be doing the goofy theatrics, the kind of arch, I.

[C]

Want to be one.

[B]

And instead he shows up. Yes. In a pinstripe double breasted suit that was, you know, calling back to the 1950s era of the film. And his pants were a little baggy orange. But for the most, yeah, he wasn't orange. We had joked that it was basketball mesh, you know, but. And then gave this kind of halting, genuine, grateful speech. And it was like, oh, so he wasn't planning on doing the braggadocious Marty supreme thing the whole season. He was just getting the movie sold.

[C]

It was the interesting question of how will he handle that pivot? How gracefully will he pivot? And will people hold against him the campaign to sell the movie to audiences, making him feel less serious? And I think he made the movie ahead.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And now he, like, in one speech is like, got it. That was to sell the movie. Now you're a real guy.

[D]

Right.

[A]

And also, like, now I'm talking to you guys. Like, I'm not just talking to the public, including, like, this, like, much younger audience.

[C]

You're not Gonna throw your gun to.

[B]

A humble young man. You know, Eddie Redmayne. I've said this on a zillion podcasts in the past, but, like, I was with great Katie Rich, the Year of Theory of Everything, and we went to a New York Times, for whatever reason, hosted a party for that movie, like, early in the season. It was probably September, like, right after Tiff Toronto. And we watched Eddie Redmayne, who no one knew the fuck that was. I mean, unless you'd seen Savage Grace, which of course I had at ifc, but. But most people hadn't. He was sort of an unknown. And I watched this guy, this young guy, he was pretty young. He's one of the youngest too, shake everyone's hand, kind of do the like, but, like, in a very polite, Etonian British way, charm everyone in the room. And he had to do that for four months or five months to win that award, but he did. And I don't think the Chalamet is going to do that exactly, but he does know how to, Leo DiCaprio style, flip the switch into humble young man, meeting his elders and his idols and saying, gee, thanks for letting me into the club.

[A]

You know, we'll also say this. Everyone, I think, in Hollywood is aware that, like, they are kind of hanging the future on Timothee Chalamet, right? Like, if there is anyone who is going to be like, an actual a list leading man, something that, like, has started to seem like, like, maybe is done, right? Like. Like, in terms of, like, being able to open a movie, in terms of being, like, having that kind of recognition with younger people, he is your guy, right?

[B]

And so I think the Glen Powell faction tried their candidate. It didn't really work.

[A]

Whereas I think also with him, all that he needs to do, he. He cannot be like, you should give this to me because you. Because of that. But like, to allow that to be part of his narrative, I think, without like, bothering people about it.

[B]

He's a Dolph Fang, you know, and they just. And he. He has to.

[A]

I mean, that's, I think, also, like, the role he plays in. In every movie also. So, like, yeah, he is the princeling. And this is, I think, also, like, this is a even better narrative in fitting in for that than, say, like, being playing, you know, the biopic, like the standard, like, give me an Oscar.

[C]

I mean, this film and this performance feel metatextual.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

It's kind of a right movie to give him an Oscar for because it is fully exploring what his. His thing is.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[C]

You Know, and, and kind of owning it. And I think that the Brody win is such an outlier. You know, there's the fascinating stat that in that year he's up against four previous winners and he sort of, after being seen as like lucky to be nominated the whole season became a default. Like, do we need to give Jack Nicholson a third, Daniel Day Lewis a second yet Michael Caine a third, Nicolas Cage a second? Or here's this guy who gave an undeniable performance in a film that really surged late within that season. And he did have kind of that reputation of very humble, hard working actors. Actor in his 20s and also had this weird, like he was in Thin Red Line, but all of his dialog was cut out. This guy can't catch a break. But everyone is like, if you work with him, he's got the goods.

[D]

Right.

[C]

Charlemagne is in a whole different sphere where he has to handle the pressure of being a guy that the industry rests on commercially while also seeming serious enough as an artist. Right. That he could be rewarded so young. And you comp him to like Cruise and DiCaprio.

[A]

I was going to say Cruise.

[C]

Right.

[A]

In particular. Yeah.

[C]

Who are also guys who had that kind of thing. And The Academy made DiCaprio wait quite a while and is still making Cruise.

[B]

And they really made him wait.

[C]

Really.

[B]

It felt very pointed. They were like, hold on, kid, you.

[C]

Can'T have everything yet. Not too fast, you're dominating too hard. Right. But both of those guys, for how great they are at selling their movies and how much power they carry were from the playbook of the more famous you are, the more mysterious you need to be. You know, you choose your words very carefully, you choose your appearances very carefully. Your power is just standing somewhere. You need to keep a wall of unknowability. And Chalamet is like sharing the drafts folder with us, you know, because he understands it's a different world, it's a different landscape if he wins. It does feel like there's a giant shift happening not just within the Academy, but like within the industry of what we expect out of our major kind of industry carrying movies.

[A]

Yeah. And I also, I am curious about how much the industry will register that what Chalamet has been doing right now when like does videos where he's stalking around Times Square with like a bunch of guys in, you know, orange ping pong heads. That. That is actually our equivalent of like Tom Cruise flying to every country to glad hand with fans, you know, like, like that. This is what that is now. Like, it is the equivalent it looks a lot weirder, but, like, it's the same thing you are putting in the.

[B]

Leo, taking out ads that say, consider.

[A]

Yeah, in the. In the big jacket.

[D]

Can we run down some of his shenanigans? Yeah, like, what's he been up to? And then how has that. What's the shift been?

[B]

Yeah, well, he did a basketball event with Adam Sandler in LA the weekend of the Governor's Awards. So everyone was in town and there were sort of eyes on that.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

He did the podcast you talked about with the bogan.

[A]

Yeah, he has done a few. He did like a kind of fake zoom video where he was like, pitching kind of cringy ideas. It was like cringe comedy, basically.

[C]

It was a marketing meeting with the A24 team that I think was key to the whole campaign.

[B]

And he very bravely was like, I know that this could. This could be clipped out of context and people will actually think that I'm being this much of an asshole. But that's okay.

[C]

It was treated as if it was a leaked video, but it was clearly constructed, written, or at least deliberately improvised. Sort of like meta piece of him strategizing about how they need to sell the movie that set the tone for the whole thing. And also, like, laid bare his ambitions of, I'm going to do everything I can to make young people give a shit about this film, you know, because it matters. And DiCaprio, I heard a fascinating stat about, you know, when one battle after another got greenlit at 120, 30, $40 million budget, and people were saying, that's insane. A Paul Thomas Anderson movie has never worldwide made half of that. How is he getting this jump up? Right. The pocket watchers who like to act like they're executives online. Right. It's not your money. Why do you care? Right. Putting aside the fact that he deserves this as an artist that we want should celebrate that he's getting to paint his Sistine Chapel or whatever. People were saying, like, where does the math add up on this? And what I heard was that a big part of the reasoning was the comp they studied was that I think it's 90 or 95% of the time when Leonardo DiCaprio has made a movie with the director that is their highest grossing film and is their highest grossing film by a mile. Right. And in fact, if they have other films that are close, they're usually the films in the afterglow of the Leo movie that elevated them. And that he would do this, he would pick someone who was a great artist but wasn't necessarily commercial or mainstream. And his power that he would sort of apply to it and the importance of if DiCaprio is making a movie, it means something. This guy doesn't make wanton career decisions. He's choosing everything very carefully. A power that Cruise had for so long. It becomes transformative. Right. And I think what Chalamet really wanted to test is here is a movie that doesn't have Dune Wonka, Bob Dylan attached to it. Right. His three.

[B]

Wait, no, they're all in the movie. I forgot.

[C]

I'm sorry. Yeah, they are all in at the cameo. Yes. But it doesn't have any sort of other name that you can point to. Those were his commercial breakthroughs up until this point in time. And he wants to be the guy who can say, if I decide I'm making a movie with Josh Safdie, Josh Safdie's budget is about to multiply by four. Because now people assume that I can help make this movie cross over into the mainstream.

[B]

This was like a seven year plan because, like, they. Josh Safdie and Chalamet met during the Call Me by youy Name year.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because Safdie had a movie that year. Was it.

[C]

I think it's the good time year.

[B]

Yeah, it was good time. And they talked then. And I mean, I don't know the actual history, but the sort of understanding is that like, Josh Safdie basically was like, all right, kids, start learning how to play ping pong, and then we're eventually gonna make this movie. And then it just so happened that Chalamet, maybe Safdie kind of saw this in a prophetic way, became a movie star enough to get this grand ambition funded.

[A]

And he's also. Safdie has talked about just like seeing him. I think there was some. It was like a New York film, like, festival event or something where he was like so kind of wound up, he, like fell off his chair, like doing a Q and A. And he was just like, this is like, there's that kid. Like, he's gonna be the guy. And. And I think also understood a quality about Chalamet, about like this kind of the cockiness, but also the like wanting greatness so badly that just kind of like informs this movie, as you said, like, this is a movie about Timothy Shellam.

[B]

The cockiness that is. Is, you know, you got to give it to him well founded because there is talent behind it. There is. That's true of Timothy. That's true of Marty Supreme.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, there's a part of me. I rewatched the movie recently. I had seen it back in October at New York Film Festival and appreciated the craft, but didn't connect to it, maybe. And I still sort of feel that way about it. But, like, I was, you know, watching it recently, I was like, wow, this is. It is again, a new version of how to campaign for these things that, like, Chalamet in this movie is not playing anyone heroic. He is playing a real asshole, you know, And I just. I think it's very interesting that on top of everything else we've talked about in terms of what Chalamet is doing, is that he's also selling a movie that is long, difficult, abrasive.

[C]

You're almost irritating by design.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. The movie screaming all the time.

[A]

No, it is aggressive towards the audience. And that's one other thing I really like about it.

[B]

And if he manages to win in March, that is a real magic trick because, like, that's the kind of movie that is supposed to really turn, you know, the blue hairs in the Academy completely off.

[C]

So can I throw out a theory that's been starting to coalesce for me?

[B]

Hit me.

[C]

Talk about the Mel. Right. A concept our friend Cannon created of, you know, we look at the Academy as this golden thing, but really it's largely decided by guys named Melbourne in their mansions in, like, Malibu, you know, old Jews who had a credit 45 years ago.

[B]

You know, they directed three of the police Academy movies, but not the ones you think of.

[C]

Right. And I think, you know, the Academy has made major efforts and major strides to not just diversify their membership, but get their membership a lot younger. Getting into the Academy used to be a kind of gold watch for a career, unless you were an absolute titan within your field. Otherwise, you basically only get kissed in after you turn, like, 16. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And it was a real thing. And they've been reaching out to not just diversify, but go people in different genres, different spaces, different styles, different ages, different countries. Right. And it has changed the kind of things that we now consider could be Oscar worthy, you know, because the narrow line of what kind of movie hits the median taste is no longer as clear. But I think for a lot of time, a lot of our lifetimes in tracking the Oscars, what we considered Oscar bait was, you know, 90s 2000s, slightly into 2010s, kind of prestige film that feels like a throwback and elevation of a kind of 50s or 60s.

[B]

There's a modern tweak on it, but.

[C]

It is the same earnest studio drama.

[B]

Because.

[C]

Because the people making the decisions are people who think that that was the best the industry ever was. They want the movie like the English Patient that reminds them, oh, Dr. Zhivago, that was a picture. And the things that have happened the last 30 years, I'm trying to ignore. And there are aberrations.

[B]

Did Dr. Chavago ever have an English Patient?

[C]

He must have. And if he didn't, we should look into that. Grounds of discrimination.

[B]

We have a movie.

[C]

Dr. Zhivago meets the English Patient versus the English Patient. Yeah. I saw Marty supreme with my father. You happen to be sitting directly.

[A]

I saw Marty supreme with you and your father.

[C]

Yes. And my father was vibrating the entire phone. My father is 72 years old. Is that right? Yes. 3. He's vibrating the entire movie, laughing hysterically. The second, directed by Josh Safdie, shows up on screen. He grabs me by both shoulders, leans in and goes, griffin. That is one of my 10 favorite movies of all time. Ah.

[B]

All right. So it works on the Mels. Kind of.

[C]

This is my take. Right. I was like in that moment I clocked for the first time. My dad is kind of a Mel. And what we think a New York Mel. He's a New York Mel. But what we think of as a Mel has changed because the Mel is now people who think the best it ever was was. Was the new Hollywood 70s.

[A]

Popeye Doyle, very much from that, you know. Yeah. This is a movie very much.

[C]

It's like you look at that era in Midnight Cowboy and you were like.

[B]

These are scuzzy, scumbag, kind of abrasive movies.

[C]

Challenging main characters, unconventional leading man playing unlikable dudes, you know, Also like a lot.

[A]

I mean, this movie gives so much of this. There's just so much like kind of texture in terms of like just outrageous characters. Right, right. This movie is. If there were a bit part Oscar, this movie would like be. All of. All of the five nominations would be from this movie.

[C]

You look at the 70s as a decade in acting nominations and there are so many cool bit part nominations. Beyond Beatrice Straight winning, you have like Jane Alexander, the incredible one scene performance. Well, no, but also in all the President's Men.

[B]

Right, that. Yes. Yeah.

[C]

Where she is one scene. Her characters even have a name. She's librarian.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And Sylvia Miles and Midnight Cowboy, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And there's a kind of like we're circling back around to. That was now the golden age that people want to be reminded of the oldest members of the academy. And that was a tougher time And a more challenging time in film where those movies crossed over and became mainstream in a way that Marty supreme is kind of. Of becoming now.

[B]

And it's griminess as an asset then.

[C]

Absolutely. So I think this notion of, well, this doesn't really smell like an Oscar contender. It's like, no, you have to chart what was 50 years ago now, whereas.

[B]

Which is made by a filmmaker who is, you know, has been regarded in the past with past films as like the picture of a certain kind of modernity. You know, the writer is like using non professional actors and so is Nomadland. And now Hamnet arrives and it. It's this, from a certain vantage point is this lumbering old fashioned maudlin thing.

[C]

Yeah. Modern style on a very kind of classic Hollywood wheat that Marty and one.

[B]

Battle to an extent can bounce off of and be like, well, I mean, come on. Like that's, that's.

[C]

And look, one battle's in this exact same conversation. You know, even Sinners, to a degree. Like, these are the movies that are pushing through, you know, are like, is Sinners an analog for the Exorcist? You know, that's interesting.

[A]

Yeah. I think also this is a particular year, just like looking over the people who are in the race still. This is a real year for abrasive performances or performances that are not necessarily characters who you would describe as likable that really are challenging.

[B]

Frankenstein.

[A]

Frankenstein.

[C]

No, he's like.

[A]

I mean the monster is very likable. Like he has a lot of pathos and I have basically like an incel.

[D]

Did you know that actually Frankenstein is the real monster?

[B]

Oh, oh, there we go. The turn in that movie where all of a sudden Victor hates this creation based on really no behavior is crazy to me. It's like build to that.

[C]

Like it is a classic.

[B]

You should love him at first and then hate him.

[C]

Is there a missing real movie where you're like, it just feels like there's.

[B]

10 minutes that is holding it hostage.

[C]

Needs to happen.

[B]

You must cast me again.

[A]

It's just also like, it is funny where you're like, he's just like a parent who's like, why isn't my kid better at soccer? Like, it's just really like you're not just. You're not like getting it together quickly enough. Monster.

[C]

This is a question like, Elordi and Benicio are both giving very sympathetic performances. Right. I think Elordi is playing that role with such pathos that even if you dislike that movie, you're sort of giving him even more credit for like, oh, and you had to put up with the indignity of this film as well. And if you love the movie, you're like, look at how much suffering was imposed upon this character in universe. Right, Right. And that is like a kind of conventional, easy to root for Oscar performance. And Benicio is just. Everyone circles back to. It just. It feels good. It feels good spending time with this guy.

[B]

It is too small beers. It's just.

[A]

But also, he's so heroic.

[C]

Like, he's. Can't we have more people like this in the world?

[A]

Sure. Well, yeah, but is that the divide this year? The lead performances are like Rose Byrne doing this, like, I think incredible, but like really deliberately abrasive and computational performance. And if I had like said kick you. I mean, if she sticks around like Emma Stone, the kind of like journey that character takes in Begonia or Amanda Seyfried in Testament of Anne Lee. Like a really kind of like, amazing but like, alien performance. Right. Like one that does not offer you a toehold, really. To be like, you're like, I can kind of like, appreciate what this character is going to. I do not be like. I also relate to be.

[C]

Right. I mean, Amy Madigan is literally a supernatural horror villain with layers. And Teyana Taylor is the whole movie hinges on is this a good person. Right. You know, in so many ways.

[A]

Or I mean, like, I was. It's not as much in the race, but like Tessa Thompson in Hedda, that character is like incredible, you know, like this.

[B]

Like, you meet her when she's holding a pistol and gazing down at servants with a sort of like leering grin.

[A]

And she just like kind of of tortures people for fun, like socially. Yeah. And an incredible performance.

[D]

Is there something to the politics of these movies? I think especially Marty and one battle that feel like confronting maybe all of these terrible people in our politics in our lives, that won't go away.

[A]

Well, and I think Marty, it's also. It is interesting because he is simultaneously and I think in his own head, he is an underdog. Like his. I mean, like, he is like a Jewish American man, like in the porn post World War, like, you know, like he sees himself like when he says, like, I'm Hitler's worst nightmare, he's like, not joking about that. Even if also he exists outside of the direct kind of contact with, you know, like the Holocaust that his friend and kind of ping pong partner, you know, has in that kind of like Honey. The flashback with Honey was like, so kind of evocative and so also distant. From Marty's actual experiences. So he is like, simultaneously this. He sees himself as the underdog, and yet he is also, like, this kind of emblem of, like, cocky American exceptionalism. Right. Like, of win at all costs. Anything is worth it to kind of prove greatness. I think he's both. Right. Like, he contains both at the same time.

[B]

All right, we're going to get into some Marty supreme spoiler territory. So if you have not seen the movie, go watch the movie. It's very short. And then come back and listen to the rest of the this episode.

[D]

My grand theory of the movie is that Marty is, even though it's set in the 1950s, Marty is really a creature of the 1980s.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[D]

He's like. He has this number of speeches about how he's gonna do whatever he's gonna do. He doesn't consider anything else. And it made me think of a quote from Karl Rove in this is.

[B]

Why we have Ben in the run.

[D]

Up to the Iraq war. He says, you can hear Marty Mauser saying this. When we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality judiciously, as you will, we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too. And that's how things will sort out where history's actors and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do. Like, that is.

[B]

That sounds like a Marty line. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it really does.

[D]

And it just feels like the way that he just, like, goes to Japan, this humiliated nation, and sort of dominates them in the face of this. One of the actual heroic characters in the movie, the Japanese ping pong player who's played so wonderfully.

[C]

Great performance.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I don't know, there's something to me about something sour about that whole thing. Even though it's triumphant for the character.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I think it absolutely is. But, yeah, like, that ending even. I mean, what I love about it is that he is so committed to this idea to need to win and prove himself and to, like, redeem in his eyes, even though he's ignoring the context with which that match takes place, beyond just, like, the fact that it's not meaningful in his kind of, like, professional, like, chase.

[C]

Right.

[A]

It's not. Yeah. It doesn't get into anything. He loses money. Actually, he gets stranded potentially with no way back in, like, halfway around the world to prove himself in this in front of an audience of crying Japanese people.

[C]

There's a very strong argument that he ends his entire professional ping pong career in that moment. That he cares so much about winning a symbolic victory that's symbolic really, only to himself, only for him, with like, zero impact. And I love the moment of him falling to his knees and crying like he just won the Olympics, right.

[A]

Right in front of a crowd of like a few, like, hooting like American servicemen. And everyone else just like, devastated.

[C]

And you're like, you've alienated everyone you've ever spoken to and this was your final straw.

[B]

And do we then see the closing. So again, spoiler. The closing shot or series of shots of the movie are, you know, this baby in the maternity, old fashioned maternity ward where he's behind closed glass and Marty, you know, having just kind of arrived from Japan through the securitus route, you know, kind of makes up with his girlfriend.

[C]

Let's also acknowledge his love interest, who is married to another man, is pregnant. And he has spent the entire film denying parentage that it can't even possibly be.

[B]

And that's why that Maury Povich cameo is incredible. So well timed. No, but like, he's so. I don't know, I guess from an interpretation of like, he knows he's distracted, destroyed his career. He's just kind of gotten this sort of pyrrhic victory in Japan. Is he then kind of gazing at his son, his newborn son, and being like, well, I have advanced our cause this far and now it's up to you to do. You know, is it like a generational kind of thing or.

[C]

I am fascinated by how wildly disparate the takes and interpretations on the ending are that I have seen seen. I had a very specific takeaway from it, which I'll get into. But I have seen people so confidently argue specifically and intentionally, it should only be read this way. And I can't believe anyone would think otherwise. And I think there's an interesting kind of. It's almost a Kuleshev effect. As much as I think Chalamet is giving a very specific performance in that moment. There's something really hard to read of why is he crying while looking at this baby? Something has unlocked in him, but it says a lot more about the audience member, what they perceive that to be. I certainly think certain people who perhaps want this movie to have a happy ending and really want their characters to be redeemed have read it as. And at this moment he sees the child something bigger than himself, and he grows up and he's crying because in this one moment he has gained complete emotional maturity and intelligence and has been.

[B]

Humbled in the right way or Achieved the right thing.

[C]

I've seen people both say that as a testament to the movie's power. It builds to this beautiful ending that actually really makes you feel something. And people also accusing the movie of being insincere in trying to elicit that emotion. I see the ending more as for the first time in his life, he is face to face with something bigger than himself and he cannot process what is happening. I don't think he is having a coherent emotional thought. It's part of what I think Timmy does so well. Timmy, who's one of our best on screen criers. And you look at the.

[B]

From the beginning, truly. Yeah.

[C]

But like, you know, call me by your name is sustained end credits just kind of slow, slowly, quietly weaving me.

[B]

At the Eccles Theater at Sundance, yelling at people who were trying to walk past me, being like, the movie's still happening.

[A]

Look at those tears.

[C]

But he's doing like a real kind of like contorted, Julianne Moore esque pained cry where you can tell that he is surprised and embarrassed that this is coming out of him and he can't stop it.

[D]

Right?

[C]

And I don't think he knows how to process what's happening other than that there is now a child in front of him. Him that he, in this moment, now accepts some ownership for. And the rest of his life is defined by this. Right? I think if you want to believe that this is the moment that he goes, fuck, okay, I got a child to support. I got to get a real job. I got to clean up my act. I got to become, you know, maybe more of a Mr. Wonderful. Right? You know, or he will be defined by, this is bigger than me. I can't handle. Handled this. I'm running. Right, Right.

[B]

Like his own father is sort of absent. Right?

[A]

Never even mentioned.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We never hear what. Where it became of him.

[C]

Or is he gonna tell himself that he's a good father, but really his head is always in five other places trying to get a new thing. You don't know. And I don't think he knows. But I have also seen people so confidently, not just one. I was fascinated once I saw it, to see if it was isolated. And I've seen it pop up in so many places, places, people who are adamant that the reason he's crying at the end of the movie is because the baby looks so much like Emory Cohen that in that moment, he is recognizing it is not his. And I saw one person say that. I went, what? And then I saw, obviously all babies.

[B]

Look like Emory Cohen.

[A]

Yeah, that's true.

[C]

My exact.

[A]

I know he's got a baby strong baby quality. He does.

[C]

And he's got a shaved head in this movie. But it's so funny that people are like, of course that's the ending. And here are the moments of foreshadowing.

[B]

Leading up to that ending. Oh, they're like Easter egging it.

[C]

I bring this up just to say there's something in that ending and it's unreadable quality despite everyone watching it and very strongly feeling something.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Whether they're accepting that or rejecting it.

[B]

And awards wise, that's a great asset because it sends people out of the theater, voters out of the theater being like, well, something significant happened at the, the end of. And that's up to them to determine what that something was.

[C]

You're kind of seeing what you want to see. If you like the movie, it is the culmination of everything that worked about the film for you up until that point. And if you dislike the movie, that is the thing you point to and go, here's my proof that this movie is insincere.

[B]

And it's just enough ambiguity where enough voters who would care about such things are like, but he was humanized at the end.

[A]

That was. Yeah, yeah. I feel like if someone, and I've talked to so many people who have struggled with him as a character just because he is so kind of like chaotic and self centered and so like bent on this vision that no one else shares and no one else cares about. But I think that if you give it gives just enough that if you want to latch onto it to be like, here's this moment of redemption, here's this moment of change. This is actually not just this kind of like wild, indescribable romp, but a story about someone coming of age that you can put that on there and settle with that. And it's much more.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, my feeling is he is a character who treats everything like a game and a hustle. Right. The stakes never really feel real for him. The only stakes that matter to him are his sense of self, his ego, his reputation. But otherwise he just kind of like Tasmania, devils around with impunity. Right. And I just think that moment captures the first time he is up against something bigger than him himself. It's also what I think the film is about at large, as you were saying, this very specific cultural moment of young second generation Jews in America who have a kind of reverse survivor's guilt, which he verbalizes. I mean, it's made into explicit text in the movie that, you know, I didn't have to serve in the war. I was a little too young for that. My family planted their roots here. So I wasn't in one of the countries where I was getting hauled tough. Right. And now we've defeated the bad guys. Who can fucking stop me? Everyone else suffered in order for me to feel empowered in this moment, I get to have fun. And you talking about Ben feeling very tied to the 80s. Josh Safdie's been talking on interviews that the 80s felt like the first time there was a palpable nostalgic culture. And it was going back to the 50s. 50s, that there's. There's a tying of those.

[B]

But there's not any movies about, like Michael J. Fox movies about.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I mean, he's like, literally one of the defining movies of the decade is. What's that character's name in that movie? Marty. But. But there's something there. Right? And these are the people, for better or worse. And I'd say largely worse. Our world is still kind of largely run by Marty's right? They go legit or they don't. But either way, that attitude, that spirit of this is sort of the first generation that's gonna let people have an adolescence fuck around. There's disposable pop culture. There's processed foods, you know, and growing up is a choice. You get to decide whether or not you want to do it. And that final moment of him seeing the baby is him realizing that the choice exists. I don't think he makes a choice in that moment. That's my personal interpretation. It is more him being emotionally overcome by, holy shit. This is the first thing that is actually real. This is the first thing I have to. I cannot deny, has real world consequences. That is partially because of me.

[B]

And it's why you couldn't tell that story about really any other sport, you know, Or. Or it would have to be equal or lesser because, like, ping pong is sort. And. And, you know, that's even a derisive term. I learned what watching that movie, you know. Yeah, but like, it's. It's so sidelined in American culture that, like, his dream has to be built around this, you know, sort of useless, ephemeral.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

You know.

[C]

Right, Right. This guy is hustling so hard, but part of his hustle is I'm the Michael Jordan of ping pong, and I see the future, and ping pong's as big as basketball, and he's wrong.

[B]

And we know he's Wrong.

[C]

He's empirically wrong. We live in the present and we know it will never be taken as seriously as it was in that moment. Not even more seriously.

[B]

And then pickleball, that's the peak.

[C]

Right. So everything he's doing is in the name of something that has a very, very low ceiling. And like, BlackBerry was one of my favorite movies of the decade, and I think is another movie that beautifully uses that film's more fact based that, you know, they're on the Titanic.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That they're doomed. That everything these characters are fighting for. For is going to butt up against the outcome that we've all lived through. None of us have a BlackBerry anymore. Everything they do, every symbolic war they think they're fighting ultimately is irrelevant because the iPhone will exist and table tennis will never become a mainstream sport in America. Yeah.

[B]

Or really anywhere. Yeah.

[C]

No, that. That was the peak. And I. I think that's part of it. And I think, you know, there's certainly. As much as the film is about Chalamet, it's also, I. I think a major piece of self reflection by Josh Safdie. I know this is a big part of your read of the movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think to some degree, it being something as kind of silly as table tennis is important because it's kind of a guy looking back at how seriously he took the stakes of. I'm a filmmaker and I'm intense in my 20s. Right. And that he's sort of looking back and going like, Jesus fucking well. And I think, what was I on about?

[B]

This is a thing that a lot of straight male filmmakers do, and I don't begrudge them that. But, like, sometimes I get a little bit like, you know, like watching Interstellar and you're like, jesus, Chris, just spend time with your kids. If you feel so guilty about being away shooting movies all the time, I know that shooting the movies is what, you know, gives them a good life and you can pay for college and all that stuff.

[A]

Other things could also be for college.

[B]

A little bit about that with Marty supreme at the. At that ending. I mean, my sort of first read of the thing, it was. It was like Safdie almost apologizing to his young children for being away making his movies or whatever. And I'm like, just shoot an Acura commercial and then be home more.

[C]

Can I throw out some timeline stuff? Real world timeline stuff that I find interesting? So he talked about, in a lot of ways, the movie is about the years of him trying to get uncut gems off the ground. Uncut Gems was the project that they wanted to make that then got interrupted by heaven knows where. What. It was too big of a jump up in scale and budget, so they had to make a smaller film to show that they could do it. Good Time is the midpoint film. You know, they wanted Sandler forever. They couldn't get him for years. They developed a version of it that was Jonah Hill, other versions of it.

[B]

They finally Vikander for a time. Yeah.

[C]

They finally get Sandler. The movie comes out at the end of 2019. It is, at the time the highest grossing film that A24 is released, is the first A24 movie movie to cross $50 million domestic. It's like you. You won. It doesn't get any Oscars, it doesn't get any nominations, but it's sort of immediately treated as the egregious snub in.

[B]

Many areas and solidified the A24 sort of branding. Like, this is the kind of movie we make.

[C]

Right. And sort of like the academy isn't cool enough to give it to Uncut Gems. An absolute triumph for everything that he spent 10 years investing in. In the importance of pursuing. Right, right. I so steadfastly believe this is the movie I have to make. And he talks about the movie comes out. All of that happens. He feels nothing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And he goes, what the. What the. What was all of this for?

[B]

Right.

[C]

And then Pandemic.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

He doesn't make a film for six years and the world stops.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And stops him at a moment where he's also in a place of self reflection. And then he gets married and has two children in quick succession. Right. So the movie isn't. I'm apologizing. This is my read.

[B]

No, no, no, you're right.

[C]

For not spending time with my kids. It is a movie about a guy having kids and then being like, what? All of that. And it's very much a film that's in conversation with the films, the previous films he made with his brother. It's not like it's a radical departure, but I think there is the gained self awareness and self reflection and then also the larger kind of historical and cultural context he can put on it by making it a period piece and looking back to his father, his grandfather's generation, and understanding the lineage of the Jewish American experience and the sort of feeling of needing to be a perpetual underdog, but being told that you have to achieve great things.

[A]

Well, I will say also for me, that ending just. It does not work unless you understand it as both like, this incredibly sincere reaction from that character. But also that the next day he could be either a deeply committed father or knocking on the door of, like, the Table Tennis association wanting back in. Like, I think that both of those things have to be as likely and.

[C]

Never see either of them ever again. Even though five minutes earlier, he goes, I'm here. I'm staying. I'm never gonna leave you.

[A]

And I think the thing is, like, what is so real about that moment for me is that people do have these incredible, sincere, emotional epiphanies and. And then don't change. You know, like, they don't necessarily become a better father. They don't become. They can weep over their child and then not be present.

[B]

The tenuousness. Like, I think that, you know, I'm someone who, like, at a certain point in Quentin Tarantino's career, I was like, can you just do something sincere, like. Like, yes, Beatrix Kiddo crying on the floor of the bathroom. Like, at the end of Kill Bill 2, I was like, okay, we're. And then there's a little Inglourious Basterds, and then it sort of goes away again. And so I liked in Marty supreme that, like, there are moments where Safdie is, like, showing a slightly softer side. There's that beautiful shot of Gwyneth Paltrow back to the state. The audience on Broadway smiling when they applaud and being like, I love this. But then he undercuts that a few scenes later with her weeping because she got terrible reviews or whatever, you know, so he's not gonna let it last too long. So I think, to your point, Alison, like, yeah, it's totally believable that he has this genuine cathartic moment viewing this child through the glass. But the child stays behind that glass for him, and he just kind of bails.

[C]

Yeah, but versus everything else he's been up against in the movie up until that point in time. If he bails, he is defined by being an absentee father for the rest of his life, you know, whether or not he wants to actively be a father. And that's what's changed.

[B]

Yeah, it's defined to him now. It's.

[C]

Now that is his identity and how he handles it becomes almost his defining attribute as a man.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah, I was. I think also it's worth, like, mentioning Daddy Long Legs, which is the Safdie Brothers movie that they made, starring Ronnie Bronstein, who is the, you know, kind of like, now. Now the third Safdie.

[B]

Maybe he's still giving a speech at The New York.

[A]

It was a verbose speech the two of them gave.

[C]

They.

[A]

Those guys like to talk, but that.

[C]

Movie is about their childhood as Ronald Bronstein, playing a character very closely modeled on their father.

[A]

Yes. And he was just like both, like a loving and incredibly chaotic, destabilizing presence. You know, someone who is just like, bringing that chaos that like, marks their movies. Like, you're like, oh, this was the source. Like, you know, like someone who kind of like chases things on whims. Like, kind of can be incredibly fun and can be like a kind of someone. You're like, oh, he should not be in charge of kids. Like, and I think there is also a version of Marty where you're like, this. Is that the person I'm going to be? Is that the parent I'm going to be? Someone who is, like, loving, but, like, loving does not mean that you are.

[C]

An incredibly hands on, dysfunctional father.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[C]

And someone who never quite figures it out.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Right. Or there's a version of him that just goes fucking corporate. Like, it's interesting for me to consider. And that moment is just something has broken in him and how he rebuilds is to be determined.

[D]

I think it's a credit to Chalamet's performance that he could have just played this role as a straight con man.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Because Marty. What Marty does is he. Khan's constantly. But he does play it with that sincerity to the point where you can empathize with him. And it makes that last moment possible.

[B]

Exactly. And cynically enough, you know, to bring it back to awards, stuff like that is what I think is the crucial selling factor, you know, and I think that. I think there's a ton of humanity in Sandler's performance on Uncut Gems. But I think the academy as it existed then, the pump, was not primed enough for that to be. And also it was a little too irredeemable. He gets shot in the head at the end. Whereas this is the next evolution of a Safdian protagonist. And there's just enough of that Chalamet sort of warmth underneath it to sell it.

[A]

The thing that makes it for me, the thing that sells it for me as a performance are those moments where he. It's not just that it's the hustle, it's also where the hustle's sort of working. But he can't help but push it further, you know, and he pushes it into chaos. And like, that is weirdly the most humanizing moment. Because it's not just that he's always in pursuit of his goals. It's also like he courts being like, let's see what'll happen.

[B]

He got the necklace that was going to take him to Japan, but then he had to go hook up with her in the park.

[C]

Key moment of the movie for me, if you just say thank you for the necklace and walk away or like when they.

[A]

They've like hustled the guys in New Jersey and they're celebrating.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And then. And the guys find them and instead of just like winding up the window and driving away, he's like, let me. I want to talk to them. And you're like, what would you possibly accept just to see if you could talk your way out of it.

[C]

Yeah. I think there's something interesting you're bringing up here, Richard, which is. And we saw this last year with anora.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

People who have no history with the academy and suddenly culture catches up to them. Right, right, right. Like, absolutely. Uncut gems felt too bracing, too odd, too extreme for the Oscars in 2019. And in the six years since then, Safdie has become shorthand for a type of thing. It is used in pitch meetings and log lines. It is a vaguely commercial term that you can use to describe an energy. And now it's like, well, of course, this is in the Oscar conversation. I find it interesting that Josh seems to be directly on the bubble for best director.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But it does feel pretty set in like five, six other categories. And I think it's gonna be really telling whether he gets in there. And that's a full acceptance of. This is part of the firmament of what Hollywood represents now. Or if it's still one step too edgy in a way where, like, Scorsese doesn't get a director nomination for Taxi Driver. Spielberg doesn't get a director nomination for Jaws. We acknowledge that you are the future and your movie has changed things. But a little of what we're talking about with younger male actors. Hold your role. We're not ready to anoint you yet.

[B]

But I remember watching the trailer for Marty supreme that I guess must have come out late summer of last year. And not. I had read the logline. It was about a hustling ping pong player in the mid century. Gwyneth Paltrow shows up. Timmy has a little, you know, mustache or whatever, and thinking it was going to be another little scuzz bucket movie from, you know, this very talented director. And then the trailer dropped and it was like, oh, no, he's going for big, sweeping American.

[C]

And that is part of a narrative.

[B]

Of like a director who's been on those sort of indie fringes inching toward the mainstream, saying, no, now I have this big grand vision with lots of background, extras and budget and all that. And the academy in the past has.

[C]

Really embraced that, especially when the elements line up and that leveling up from the artists is concurrent with the culture are catching up to their thing. We're ready to see you go big. We weren't quite ready for you before. We're sorry, here we are. You have our attention. And if you can pull off that kind of like step, major step up the ladder, it is the kind of thing that the academy tends to like, fall over themselves.

[B]

And the tragedy is if somehow we could rejigger the timeline and uncut gems was the Marty supreme follow up. Sandler absolutely gets nominated for it, no question.

[C]

Probably win. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I also think it's interesting that going into this season, even basically looking at it like a year ago, right. January 2025, it was like, okay, well, we majorly keep our eyes on Chalamet and the ping Pong movie and DiCaprio and PTA. Those feel like if they're not serious contenders, something's gone horribly awry. But going back to sort of Wagner Moore suddenly seeming really, really strong in the best actor category, Story, Jeremy Allen White in Springsteen, but that hasn't come out yet. Dwayne Johnson in the Smashing Machine. George Clooney and J. Kelly. I feel like I'm even forgetting a couple others. There was like a sense of we're not going to have room to fit all these guys. Well, the conversation, automatic lock nominee.

[B]

The conversation all the way up to like the first premiere at Venice of any of these movies was like, best actor this year is stacked. Oscar Isaac. You know, all these people. And then it was like just people fell by the wayside. So many people fell by the wayside. Right.

[C]

That you're like, it is an odd kind of unsettled category in which you have, you know, Blue Moon, a movie that you were bemoaning to me in September. It's a shame that in a just world he'd be in the Oscar conversation. No one's gonna see this thing. And you're like, ethan Hawke feels about as locked as he could possibly be. Yeah, absolutely. Moore feels about as locked as he could possibly, possibly be. A lot of these, in a cool world, this guy would get in. Those are the guys who are on solid footing. And a lot of the, like, assumed industry favor and obvious kind of Oscar appealing role Big project. Things have just flatlined. And Chalamet and DiCaprio are the two.

[B]

That are, like, straddling it somehow. It's commercial, it's big, it's America.

[C]

But the film's fall.

[B]

But it's also edgy.

[C]

Performances are weirder than you would expect.

[B]

That, like, And. And it's. And then you compare it to, like, George Clooney and J. Kelly, and it's this. I mean, not to be too dramatic about that movie, but the. Almost as, like, hideous objects, because you're like, this is what Noah Baumbach was building toward. This goopy, sentimental, Hollywood, glitzy reflection on itself.

[A]

Totally unconvincing. Yeah.

[B]

And it was just like. And that, like, it seems so out of step, even though just six months ago, on paper, it seemed like, yeah, sure, of course.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I think also. I don't know, maybe we're at this moment where I. I certainly feel conscious of this, and I. I wonder how many people in the industry do, too, where to be, like, you have to have, like, a lot of kind of interesting friction to, like, have any staying power out there, you know, like. Like, you can't just be. Here's the formula for, like, a kind of prestige movie, a movie that we celebrate as important and all of that, because, like, those things come and go. Like, those things.

[B]

That's why Hamnet is having trouble. Like. Like, I mean, when I say having trouble, I. I mean, like, in the court of online opinion, you know, like, people are really hammering that movie from different directions. I think it's pretty impervious to that because the academy doesn't really pay attention to Internet discourse. But I think that it's because it doesn't have the traction that these other movies have where they are like, yeah, we have problematic elements. We're prickly, we're weird, but that gives us a foothold in this. Whereas Hamnet is just this kind of smooth, perfect object that is sort of designed to win awards and. And that feels kind of like anathema to the system. Right now.

[A]

We're looking for something else.

[C]

Even though one battle felt anointed earlier than most Oscar contenders or most eventual Best Picture winners. Right. And everyone's just assuming we've been on a walk of inevitability. It will be nine months of. Yep, absolutely. We all know where this is going. It is a movie that is still generated think pieces. It is a movie that people are still debating, even though there's, like, a kind of insane, overwhelming consensus, a unifying of, like, most people coming to the center and being like, this is just an important object. Right. And an important career and all of that. It is still a movie that you can't totally figure out. And Nora is another film that much like Marty supreme had an ending that people read wildly different ways. And I think that movie doesn't win Best Picture without that ending, because that ending was a thing that people couldn't stop chewing on. And these seasons get so exhausting that you need a reason to keep thinking about a movie rather than just going, like, I guess I did like that back in September.

[B]

All right, well, Griffin, thank you for being here.

[C]

My pleasure.

[B]

Great. We come back anytime. I mean, you're our boss, so, you know.

[A]

Yeah. You're kind of. You're here anyway.

[B]

Yeah. But we want to end each episode with either a sort of, like, you know, goodbye to something, an in memoriam for something that. A campaign that has failed, or. Or. Or a winner. We'd like to be celebratory as well. Allison, do you have a candidate for either of those categories?

[A]

Yeah. I would like to present an award for ethereal glow to Wagner. Mora's white suit that he wore at the new film.

[B]

Yeah, look it up on Getty Images, folks, because the pictures are out there.

[A]

It's just like. It was like a all white suit, black, black shoes. But he just really, like, under the light, it was like. He just, like, had this, like. Yes, he was attracting light to himself, and he gave a great speech. It was, like. It was very heartfelt, but it was also very kind of, like, sincere and felt unpracticed and felt he was talking about, like, the direct translation of Obrigado and how it means to be indebted. And it was a lovely speech that made me really think, like, as watching him also there be, like, kind of ethereal and incredibly handsome. Be like, oh, you are the guy that Timmy has to beat. Like. Like, you are the one who could challenge him. Like. Like.

[B]

And I want that speech. I'm sure people filmed it. I want it to go out into the Internet, because the Brazilians, they know what to do with that. They'll. They'll make. They'll make sure people see it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

They're ready to go.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But I was like, that could be it. Like, he could be the guy. If it's not Timmy, the upset would be him.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I would say my in memoriam this week going back to Critics Choice Awards is rip. My hope that Frankenstein wouldn't be part of this awards conversation in a meaningful way.

[C]

Six feet Under.

[B]

But you know, the funny thing is I say that. And yet, when Elordi won a critics choice and he gave a very gracious speech, he is apparently a genius. Did you know this? Like, he's like, very, very smart. Jacob. Lordy. And he's really into film. Like, specifically film. I was like, you know what? That actually would be kind of fun because, like, Del Toro and Sean Penn already have three Oscars between them. You know, that's. That's kind of boring. Like, here would be a first timer. So, weirdly, I'm putting my hope that Frankenstein would not be a thing that I have to deal with for months, more to rest. But I'm also saying, you know what? Elordi I could deal with. Yeah.

[C]

And big year for Elordi between Frankenstein and Avatar, Fire and Ash. I mean, I know he's not in it, but he is a nav.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Very tall. Very tall.

[B]

Well, his. No, his parents are.

[A]

Are.

[B]

He was born here. He spent summers there. Sort of like J.D. vance in. In. In Appalachia. Right? Yeah, yeah, that's.

[D]

That's how they put him in the Avatar tank to get him into the Frankenstein.

[B]

Exactly, exactly.

[C]

Which saved them a lot of money.

[A]

It was a tribute to his heritage.

[B]

Really. Like that. All right, well, thank you again, Griffin, for being here.

[C]

My pleasure. I'm so, so excited by this whole project. I cannot wait to get back into bed.

[B]

Oh, yeah, right. Exactly. By the way, before we go, I wanted to thank Joe Bowen for the wonderful art you see behind us watching video clips of this and to announce that next week, I called it, I think, a round, perfect, shiny object. Just about a half an hour ago, we're going to talk about Hamnet and I, and I think we're going to sort of focus on, in some ways, the topic of backlash, because I think of any of these best picture contenders, Hamnet is the one suffering that the most. And we'll get into why next week.

[A]

Critical Darlings is a blank check production in association with Vulture, hosted by Alison Wilmore and Richard Lawson. Produced by Benjamin Frisch, executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz. Video production and distribution by Ann Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth and Jennifer Jahn.